Also really interesting is that on that picture you can clearly see only one person, a bunch of smoke like stuff and multiple pyramids ships wich indicates they bungie had the idea of a single person resembling a whole civilisation as a whole for a very long like 10 year long time!
@@slackstarfish8133 Saying they have no plan is like thinking a 12g bullet to the head will only lead to headache for about 2 days... But I played the game and I know you are still somehow right by saying that :D
I find it interesting that the Witness’s species found the Traveler in a way that resembles a crash-landing, or even more-so, a growth coming out of the planet.
I think we’re in a loop, like the collapses, but on a grander scale. I think the Traveler is like the Witness in that it is an entire universe- one that was dying. They sent their power to us in hopes that we can defeat the darkness, but instead of destroying it we will become one with it which is something no light wielder has been capable of- turns out we have been attuning to the Veil in the same way as the Traveler this whole time. I think when the 5th race found the Traveler, it was still sleeping. Recovering. Scared for all life, it prioritizes staying away from the Veil. But as a race becomes more powerful, it almost always becomes corrupt and uses the power of the Traveler to seek out more power. It’s why we stand out- we’re like the Jedi and don’t fight what we hate unless we’re forced to, we just save what we love. So when the Traveler fled the Witness’ home world it should have collapsed, but, they unified and devoted everything to the Search. Our ghosts are literal ghosts- people who had lives stripped from them, but they still get to live, reborn through chaos. Stumbling through a new universe. /head canon theory
I do as well. What was it fleeing when it crashed or what caused it to be born? Are the nine like the traveler, planet born consciousness? Still lots of destiny to uncover and honestly the witness doesnt even seem close to the true threat when you think about it.
one thing that i love is that the pyramids are the architectural design choice of its species, and are the ships of choice. that are now the main way the witness projects its power. the pyramids existed before veil was found and now are the fleet of destruction. just something interesting
@@raziele92 Yeah it’s stupid. The pyramids obvious juxtaposition that we’ve grown so familiar with has nothing to actually do with the Traveler. The shapes together even make a ghost shell, and a flower. They are the two most common shakes in nature. Sharp edges for a hungry darkness, perfect circle for the somber light. Retconned! 😉😜
He's basically like the first Reaper in Mass Effect, evolved to a singular being that thinks it knows best how to shape the galaxy, only difference is its origins are organic instead of AI/machine based.
Two things: One, this explains why the Viel was the key for Neomuna's population to, essentially, become one in a virtual world. And two, in the video, we see the Viel but not the tendrils off the back, which have always looked like they could wrap around the Traveler. That is the link the Witness built.
Hhhmmm, go to the Veil Containment weekly mission, there you found audios from Maya Sundaresh, it implies that Neomuna is not a byproduct of the Veil, but the Vex (Sorry the Spoiler).
The Veil is the source of darkness. Darkness is the mind. Power over the mind from the mind. The Veil is the Cosmic Mind. And once Traveler and Veil was connected. The Neomunis used this tech and knowledge from the veil like we got all the stuff from the Traveler. And well the Cloudark. A thing were all minds exist without their bodys... Well sounds rlly dark...
Now it makes sense why the witness is so powerful. Darkness is about consciousness and requires strong and complete willpower to control. The witness is an entire race of individuals all fused together and as such would have a will that mara says “speaks louder than any other” (I think) so it makes sense as to why it has such absolute control over darkness
@@Wildcard120 Good news, if you wound the Witness, as in death blow, you can kill the entire race. Bad news, you will need some pretty powerful weapon(s) to get a death blow on it.
The Witness is so much cruler and more evil than I could've ever imagined. No wonder the Traveler leaves every species it uplifts, I knew there'd be a good reason...
@adamboy0559 they were given paradise, god-tier technology, and freedom to choose whatever direction they wished to go in, and they settled on universal genocide. Because they couldn't handle that their god was mute, and didn't tell them explicitly what to do?
@@MelancholicBodhisattvaNah its more like they achieved so much with the Light that they wanted to find more knowledge, meaning and purpose to the universe. To cut out suffering. And than probably wanted to reshape reality into a universe with no pain or suffering, and that everyone would prosper and achieve what they want but under their godly supervision. They were robbed of this achievement cause the Traveler wants us to endure the suffering, learn from it and raise above. But like you said, most of them take advantage of the power and abuse it to their own will. But I really truly believe that the Witness race wanted to reshape reality so there is no more suffering ever, but we need those experiences in order for us to understand life and thrive as positive beings
Oh my gosh ok this week was so huge . THE STATUES IJ THE PYRAMID SHIPS ARE THE CALCIFIED REMAINS OF THE WITNESS’S RACE. Holy crap I’ve been waiting on this reveal for so long those damn statues were always so interesting to see. Now we know there the remains for that race. And oh my gosh the witness being the collective consciousness of an entire race wow. The darkness was never the pyramids it came from the veil the veil is the metaphysical counterpart to the traveler. It’s all so much I love the story team so much
@@saitomitsurugi18 ikr it’s so damn cool it’s so much they’ve just revealed in one cutscene alone it explains a lot and I’m glad for it so many little details and moving parts set up since shadowkeep moved into place after so many years geez the narrative team cooked
@@sebastienreucheron9365 exactly now we can get rid of the notion of the flower game being literal it’s no longer that simple the gardener is the traveler the winnower is the veil pseudonyms given by the race of the witness it’s all coming together
@@sebastienreucheron9365personally I think the gardener and Winnower are 2 things the witnesses race created. The traveler being the gardener and the witness being the winnower. It made itself one being out of an entire race to shape the universe into what it sees as its final shape which we assume is nothing. If nothing exists then there is no suffering no death.
I just realised something. The wierd rocks and twisted pillars inside the piramids. I thought it was some kind of art, but these are petrified/calcified bodies. You can see it in the hallway-Witness part of this cutscene.
Came here to say the same thing. It always looked like the witness had a collection of different species, but I always that the more humanoid ones were humans. Love seeing this all come full circle
@@jackbrax7808 kinda dark when you think of it. They incased there bodies and put them in there fleet. Why to show what they once were? Design? A way if remembering there past? So many questions as tk why
Haven't watched the video yet (because it just came out) but, 4 months back, I was playing the WQ dlc and doing Altar of Reflection for the weekly challenge. And Savathûn, for once, spoke the truth here. "We talked before. What is the Witness? This is the truth... The Witness was once mortal, its people were blessed by the shadow of Darkness, just as your kind was blessed by Light. In that Darkness, these beings found power and knowledge... but they were not content. Power and knowledge turned to greed and despair. The Witness.. was forever changed." Something for yall to ponder
Just a few seconds of that cut-scene and we already know infinitely more about the Veil than the entirety of Lightfall conveyed, Good lord, what was so hard about that?
Honestly, to me, this doesn't change the Unveiling book. After this cutscene, this is the idea i had (somewhat similar to what Myelin said): The Unveiling still happened. This was the origin of the universe's creation. When the Gardener and the Winnower bled into our reality, they were then linked to primeval avatars of themselves- the Traveler and the Veil. The Traveler emerged into creation from the Witness' world, blessing their civilization. Just like the cutscene, the race then prospers and have their own golden age. But they become unsatisfied with this stagnation it has created. They desire to know why they were blessed with the light and what their purpose for having this gift was. But as always, the Traveler gifts, but never answers. Enter the Veil. On their journey for purpose, they learn about the Veil. They encounter the Veil and experience a sort of "mind-meld" when linking with it. They experience story of creation in their minds, including the "flower game" concept, and see how tumultuous the Gardener's powers can be and how the Winnower was there to try and stop the Gardener's actions. They see the Winnower as order and structure. The purpose of the creation of life. To be controlled and have a guideline on how it should follow. Life is created...and then death follows with destruction, in perpetuity. With this information flowing through them, they become engrossed with this concept. They've determined that by bringing the two universal forces together, they can have access to the powers of the universe. They then become determined to become like the Winnower, even thinking they can be the Winnower. From that knowledge, they also learn the about the "first knife" ( I believe that to be the powers the Witness has demonstrated to have. To cut reality in whatever means it desires). The Traveler denies them this concept by fleeing, realizing that this race has become corrupted and has been given knowledge no living creature should have and could possibly comprehend properly. They have effectively become "drunk with power and knowledge". With the Traveler fleeing, they then preform their mass suicide ritual to merge the race's collective consciousness into one being, with all they knowledge they possess of the Darkness and the history of creation. They have effectively now created themselves believe that they ARE the Winnower. And that's what I got from this cutscene linking with The Unveiling.
I definitely agree with you. I definitely think the unveiling lore book it was the true darkness talking to us. I think the only way we get through is reconnecting the traveler and veil together. Where it leads to might be the original garden. Just a thought why did we get strand a power the witness doesn’t even have. I think it is the actual winnower that gave us the power because of the power witness has. I do believe the traveler might actually be gardener entity and veil is the winnower. What gets me is what actually caused the collapse. Was it the massive amount of energy it released to push the witness and darkness back.
Interesting that the traveler had "wounds" when the first species found it and also it seems to imply the traveler absorbed the veil into itself before it fled. Makes me even more curious to know what type of world is beyond that portal/inside the traveler. Also getting big time Reaper vibes from the witness, he's basically Harbinger created from the leviathan race in Mass Effect.
1 thing I found for sure, we know the Witness origins now but who's behind the Gardener and Winnower entities is completely unknown, if you observe the interactions of that civilization with the Veil, they came into understanding of Darkness according to their own terms based on their frustration towards life (that besides having everything they wanted more), obsession and resentment against the Traveler. Traveler never spoked, also the Veil, we may never know what are those things from a logical rational point of view and I would like to remain those entities as a mystery, it gives more life into the story, and that kind of things has a value on it. Maybe as we progress and we reach the Final Shape we may know what is behind that and the real individual or something behind those entities that at this moment are only vague ideals and people like the Witness has a misconception towards Darkness only to please his own objectives. As for now I think Gardener and Winnower more than an entity is a Gnostic debate (And I don't use the word philosophy because Destiny has more Gnostic elements than philosophical). At the moment the objective is only pursue the Witness and kill it, we may found a truth here and there, but maybe Bungie is saving several mysteries to continue on a future adventure not related under the light and dark.
The Veil is the counterpart to the Traveler. It gives Dark and the other gives light... so what you think is the veil truely? The Witness is our Counterpart. We are the many lightusers to protec the life... not only our God. So the Witness are many Darknessusers in one.... The Witness is our destiny. Its the reason why we was choosen as lightbearers...
Unveiling is from the witness perspective. They are the windowed, and in the cutscene Asha Saya they called the Teaveler the Gardener, so I think that unveiling is the mythos of the Witnesses civilization
So, they were so obsessed with the Traveler that the gave their lives just to prevent so called Chaos that the Traveler would bring, but it seems,, that species and its pursuit of the Traveler is what is causing chaos
The story that I picked up is that they wanted power to create, and were not happy with what they were given. Then the Traveler denied them that god power. They cried about it and decided to go on a rampage, lying and destroying other civilizations that the Taveler wanted to help. So, you are right about the Witness being the chaos.
@@kyle45887the power to take worlds was already one of the truths proved in the root of nightmares raid where we there’s a section where you move around planets
Interestingly enough, there is is designs for The Witness in Destiny 1. Im having a hard time finding it again, but in a panel before destiny was released, they were talking about the different types of enemies the players will encounter. one of the artwork shown is The Witness
That is utterly mind blowing Thanks for the vid I don't have season of the deep so your insight on this was awesome (even though I watched this rather late) Keep up the good work evaze!
This was really awesome and made a lot of sense! I just wish this was part of the campaign since them stretching it out really hurt the experience for a lot of people which is real shame and something I hope they learn from.
They know that since always. They just opted doing like this so that we kept paying and paying and buying all games, passes, and packs for many years. It wont change, unfortunately
I don't really see the issue tbf just cuz this way means the game gets to be played still and it's not everything done in a month and then a year of fuck all happening 😅
One thing that we can also understand now is why the Traveler suddenly decided to make a stand against the Pyramids during the collapse. It was not because of anything to do with us or our system, it was because of Savathun. Savathun took the Veil away from the Witness. As long as the Witness had the Veil, they could attempt the link with the Traveler and start the process for the Final Shape, but with it being out of reach, the Traveler was free to strike back.
I guess the Witness is correct in saying that there is no meaning in the universe but that's kida the point. Meaning isn't something that is given it's something you make for yourself, despite the Witnesses race being so advanced they needed a higher being to give them purpose
The witness just lies to everyone, like it always does. There is meaning to the universe. The meaning is that life is a struggle and is precious. The Witness just wants power to become God. It is akin to the fallen angels.
@@cainabel6356 yes but the meaning of life is only meaningful TO life, life didnt have to exist and if it didn't or suddenly stopped existing it wouldn't mean a thing
Grateful and impressed that you got this video out so fast. Glad as always to be a subscriber. Thanks for helping to make the weekly wait more interesting.
Those veiled statues we saw in the past are pretty much a callback to the time before the Witness; it depicts the beings that would once became the Witness.
I feel like a little more detail is needed on why the Witness race came to fear the Traveller. The way the Witness talks about the light being destruction sounds like something big happened. I would also be fascinated by how this ties in with the supposed destruction of a race that embraced the darkness.
If you followed the words of the Witness, you would know the Witness is just a power hungry being. Before they merged into that creature, they were just normal aliens. They found the Traveler, which blessed them with gifts, creating an utopia for them. Then they got infuriated becasue it would not talk to them. They sought answers, and found the Veil. Then learned they can become gods. The Traveler denied them this. They got angry and decided to wreck and destroy all creation, saying it is all chaos and the Traveler is an agent of chaos. The Witness seeks to destroy all creation, becoming a god. The witness is evil.
Reminds me of Old Warhammer 40k lore of the Emperor of Man being the result of Shamans committing ritualistic suicide to combine their souls and psychic potential into one being.
Awesome video as always, just a quick note, I think you released the Eris/Drifter video a little too soon, the radio message from this week could’ve been a nice addition.
It’s become really apparent that that’s the case unfortunately. I don’t think I can say that they’ve done a great job. In fact what we have now feels lazy. But I’m glad you and most people like it.
Is it possible the Witness is us from the future??? Traveled back in time to destroy the traveler before we succumb to our future being dependent on the traveler? Hence why the Darkness said don’t you recognize us at the end of Shadowkeep.
I don't believe so. From what I have gathered from this video. The Witness was an entire alien species which wanted help, against their struggle. They found the Traveler, which blessed them with gifts. Then eventually they got fustrated that it did not talk to them, and were not happy with the gifts it gave them. So they sought out for meaning. They came across the Veil thing. Then figured out that its connection with the Traveler, learning they could become gods. Then the Traveler, knowing their plan decided to deny them god power. Basically they wanted to become gods and were not happy that the Traveler denied them that power. They are just greedy and power hungry evil aliens. For some reason this kind of reminds me of God and the Fallen Angels.
@@cainabel6356 Perhaps they are a sort of alternate reality humans, where the Traveler never had to stop a collapse because a collapse never happened, they were never gifted the power of the light, so they became greedy and sought greater power themselves, heck, they might even be from a different reality, possible a "First" reality, of many, and their work is to finally gain power, and any universe that they have already visited, was a drastically failed attempt.
@@dakarai47 - What I stated is what they are, not a theory. The witness is just one race, piled into one. The entire race were just a bunch of babies, throwing a temper tantrum because they wanted power over everything.
I love how more and more nietzschean the story of Destiny becomes. I'm not talking of the usual ''Alpha_male_regain_masculinity" interpretations of Nietzsche but rather the ones you find by reading Barbara Stiegler. It reminds me first a LOT of the Gardener / winnover story, and by extension the Traveler / Witness opposition. Nietzsche had this conception of life as something perpetually in tension between stasis (Apollo) and flow (Dionysus). Apollo is the god of ideas and concepts, it is important as new experiences in life are by definition new and so need to be incorporated into something that has meaning for us humans and we do it trough the creation of concepts. But according to Nietzsche and Stiegler it is not possible to live in a world were oly these concepts would exist as it would be a world where nothing new happens. And accoridng to Nietzsche it would make us unable to gather new experiences (which is for him the meaning of life). So the world would be a safe place but this would not last very long as it would collapse on itself. The Witness wxishes for a world where there are no new experiences, nothing new to be crated and where everything can be controlled because of his past, nothing new means no disasters. On the other side Dionysus is the flow of things and of life itself, non focused into something fully understandable by humans and living things. It has yet to be brought into something ''livable'' as it is so different from the way we live that we couldn't survive in an environement where everything is always new. This is the traveller as it brings something new but also all the unwanted failures that comes with a new creation. That's why according to Nietzsche we need to stand in this tension between Apollo and Dionysus, between stasis and flow.
The black garden could be a simulation of the inside of the traveler and the black heart a simulation of the veil.Trying to do what the witness did now with the traveler
I remember the words of the Winnower in the Unveiling Book when he warns the Gardener which consequences he will get when he will start his plan. To give the Flowers everything ( the free will )... and they wanted more... so they seek for more... The Witness is the Reason why we was choosen as the Lightbearers... to protec the life. He needs an other plan... a change... for the Game and he found a species a bit similar to the first ones... He found us... and maybe we was the right ones... thats why he doesnt fleed anymore. And than he gives the light... like the Veil gives the darkness. So the Witness is our real counterpart like the veil to the Traveler... The Witness is our Destiny.
@@Popexify I think that the veil is actually originally purely dark ( it was shown with only its dark part) and that the traveler was the one who corrupted it with light.
Yes, but WHAT. IS. THE. STATUE? I've been wondering this ever since I first saw the one in the Europa pyramid. My first thought upon hearing about The Veil was that statue and how it's a seemingly-humanoid figure draped in a veil. I thought that it made sense, given that a veil's purpose is to cover, and if you were to drop a veil over the Traveler, you could cover its light as well. When Savathun said that the Witness, "Isn't the Darkness but wears it like a cloak," I thought again about the statue. My theory is that the Witness was the figure, and the Darkness was represented by the shroud covering it. Then we got the actual Witness, and now we have the actual Veil, but still there's that statue. What the hell is it?
Totally loose theory but here it goes. I think the witness is the first knife, created from the traveler and the veil. But i think that the nine is also aware of this as they say that "only two have transcended their design an hourglass that counts down with infinite patience, and a forgotten blade sharpened anew." I believe the witness is that forgotten blade, that "first knife." Mara being the hourglass that was created by the light and dark, the Witness' species being thrown into a golden age by the traveller but trading it for the dark when they learned from the veil. Then when they merged, they became the first knife, a weapon for the darkness that was created using both the light and the dark. The witness' species created the pyramid ships themselves with the help of the travelers golden age, but then they became the witness they used the powers of the darkness and the veil to do so, thus they're a creation of both. This would explain how they have both transcended their design as they didn't start out as the awoken or the witness but were different before they encountered light and dark.
I’m Honkai Star Rail, there’s lore surrounding a God of ‘Abundance’ or life. However, this also explicitly causes chaos because there needs to be alancé in the universe. Another God known as the ‘Hunt’ is responsible for finding and eradicating the creations of the God of Abundance, in simple terms. That’s pretty much what’s happening here. The disruption of balance is what causes the war between the Gardener and the Winnower. The Witness in the other hand, is just a religious race of people that interpreted their role in the universe in a very extreme way. This would imply that the Darkness/Veil isn’t inherently an evil force, and that fundamentally it is similar to the traveler. The real evil here who is disrupting the natural balance is the Witness
Vex had the black heart in D1. Now the big bad calls the traveller the pale heart that holds a key. I think the source of all these amazing power is in the traveller and witness will get it then eliminate both the veil and traveller to become the universe's boss.
The Witness is not the Winnower, according to the Cinematic the Traveler is the Gardener and it's counterpart is the Veil as the Winnower, the first civilization took the Veil to its planet to study it and learned about the Darkness (Meaning that this does not come from them but from the Veil). I can't tell the who is the Winnower, but is not the Witness, the Witness is just a byproduct of the understanding of the Darkness by studying the Veil (and according the their conclusion after it). In the lore book unlocked after the mission Ikora says that this came out of obsession and resentment, so the Witness is just an entire civilization into 1 body with the objective due to a misconception about the Darkness. Destiny has given us several clues around the story, the last city, humanity, has achieved meaning by helping each other along other civilizations and races, this we are reinforcing along the way with or without the presence of the Traveler, on the other side the civilization dragged into this gnosticism known as "Final Shape" never found the truth we have, meaning that they were greedy, not satisfied by their own existence and limits, instead they decide to push further, only because of greed and obsession.
@@PopexifyThe gardener and his counterpart are concepts of the "philosophy" of the witness species, apparently these two gods do not exist, the winnower itself would just be a concept, something to control the Garden, anyone who can control the garden in the vision of the witness is the winnower. That is, from the moment the witness acquired the power to control the garden (universe), it became what would be the winnower according to its own "philosophy". The veil is not the winnower, because the winnower is something "created" from the witness's perspective, and since there is no conflict between the traveler and the veil, the veil does not control the garden, so it could not be the "winnower"
Here's a little tidbit: The strange sculptures dotted across the insides of the Pyramid ships aren't 'Sculptures' but the calcified remains of the Witnesse's former selves. Does the Witness see beauty in it's metamorphosis? or does it use the bodies as a subjugation tactic in a "Our sacrifice was greater than anything you will ever do." kind of way?
I have a thought on how to enter the Portal properly, but I'll try to shorten it so it still makes sense. In the resent show case for the final shape, Cayde was there, so here's a strong theory, he a knowledge from when he was alive as a human and threw his other exo phases while the Whitness has been alive longer and has memory's and knowledge with the darkness, so the true way of entering the traveler would be having all your memory's before and after being a guardian.
I think this revelation shows where The Witness and it's Disciples have gained their immense power. The Darkness is associated with consciousness, not death and winnowing. Instead, The Witness found that power could be gained in the Darkness from death. Think about it, when a being especially a consciousness undergoes death (especially a traumatic one) it invokes a cacophony of powerful thoughts, emotions, and even memory. Such death could reverberate among the Weave or even The Ascendant Realm, releasing paracasual energy. Now imagine amplifying that energy by the death of billions and the power that could be siphoned of it.
Also The Hunt's purpose then is to control the Abundance, like a gardener trimming a hedge so it doesn't grow out of control. This is a mirror of the gardener and the winnower, a natural balance of the universe. Even so, I don’t see the Witness as trying to enforce this balance, it seems more like it wants to kill the traveler completely. Also worth mentioning the traveler also indirectly created the Witness, which also means it accidentally made the Hive, and all the Darkness disciples. The Veil, or the actual Darkness, on the other hand, has done virtually nothing wrong (Although it doesn’t stop it’s followers, probably cause like the traveler it’s a ‘silent’ being) Makes me wonder if the Traveler also has a ‘Witness’ or would that just be the next Speaker?
The Winnower ( The Veil ) tryd to warn the Gardener about his plan to change the Game... everything what he touchs would change... Where is light theres always darkness.... its a fact. The Traveler gives his flowers everything ( The free will ) but he never saw what he would created... but thats only written in the lore books about the gardener and the winnower... maybe its just a big Game.. with a big plan behind it... The Witness was the great unbalance in the universe... so we bring the balance...as the many lightbearers against the many darkness users in one being...
The Witness has stated that life is chaotic and should end. Meaning they want to end all life. We have seen that the Traveler tries to help civilizations out, while the Witness seems to corrupt and destroy them. Now we know why the Witness seeks to destroy all life. They were angry that they could not become gods, because the Traveler denied them. They are basically just greedy and power hungry.
A couple questions I'm left with: What made the witness leave after Savathun stole the veil? What would make the witness retreat like that? Asha specifically says this species was the Witness' first victims. So is the Witness just inhabiting this mass of species or what?
As I understand it, Savathun gained the Witness’ trust and tricked it into believing the Veil was elsewhere. The Witness is this alien species, their entire civilization condensed into one entity.
The Witness's first victims are the first race that the Traveler abandoned throughout its life. After that The Witness continues to watch other races and civilizations become victims of this abandonment
@@sageastreaus7905 - Actually, the Traveler never abandoned the civilizations. It retreated from the first race it helped, which tried to enslave it and take its power. We know this because the Witness was the first race the Traveler helped. We see them corrupting, lying to, every civilization. We see its endless campaign to end the Taveler or control it. For the Hive, it lied about the Taveler and caused the Hive's race to die or be corrupted, eventually destroying it. For the Fallen, the Witness chased off the Traveler. For humanity, the Witness tried to destroy the Traveler outright, and the Traveler decided to stand firm to save humanity. If there is actually a true enemy and threat to all civilizations, it would be the Witness.
The witness itself is the winnower but the traveler wouldn't allow it at first but seemily now the witness has made the connection and is going to shape the universe into, The Final Shape.
If you look at what the Taveler has done for civilizations, do you think it has brought ruin to civilizations? I think it only brings uopias, giving free will to those that it has blessed. Then look at what the Witness has done to those civilizations. For the Hive, it lied to them. It corrupted them with that lie. Now they have to kill in order to survive. So, the Witness has destroyed the Hive's civilization. Then for the Fallen, it chased the Traveler away from them. Then they collapsed due to the Witness. Finally humanity. What happened. The Witness attacked humanity and the Traveler. The Traveler stops the Witness by sacrificing itself. This gives enough proof that the Witness is the chaos that is destorying civilizations.
Savathun and her race were lied to by the Witness. The Witness is the chaos, the evil. Savathun sought to protect the Traveler from what the Witness wants, which is to gain the power to reform the universe, so it can destroy it. If anything, we will probably see Savathun again, except she will be on our side. Just like the Fallen and that Empire race is on our side. Then all the races that were decieved, corrupted or almost destroyed by the Witness, will be united against the Witness. The whole point of the Traveler, the Gardner, was to find a race that would help each other, to keep life sacred and alive. Humanity is the race that the Traveler came across, which will bring all the other races together.
So did they create the darkness or was it already existing before... it says they created a power from consciousness and shows them building a pyramid in the cut scene so did they or not?
I think the difference in the light and dark saga when comparing our species to the witness’s is that us, guardians who are at based earthlings, have hope,love, compassion, control over our thoughts and conscience… those are how humans prosper healthily in community and society (*not referring to irl). The witness in turn is corrupted by the darkness and is only able to see the glass half empty as it complements their needs/wants, i.e to reshape reality and have a purpose. Guardians in turn as shown during those 7 yrs are able to wield the light and darkness not for greed, not to become king of universe but rather protect what was left for them to love. Its sad to see incredible writing told throughout yrs getting overshadowed to bs after bs from bungo
Correct. Also, it chased the Traveler from the Fallen. One reason why the Traveler left the Fallen. One reason why the chaos entity destroying civilizations is the Witness itself.
The Traveler is a being, with a will of its own, helping civilizations get to a utopia age. The Witness's species decided that it was not enough. They sought to become gods, to reshape the universe the way they wanted it to be. That means destroying everything the Gardner wants, aka the Traveler. So, it refuses and flees, stopping the Witness's species from destroying what it creates. The Witness and the species that formed it, are evil.
From this cutscene we know whats true and false in Savanthun riddles.And theres three events that will happen for sure -Taken King will rise again -In the end our destiny lies beyond solar system -Hive are not the last to be chosen by light
This may be a dumb question, and slightly off topic but relating to the witness and darkness. What is the point of all the ships? If no one is on them? We see all of the pyramidal ships awake,they travel to Earth, one is on the moon, and we see the floating souls or what have you, but if they all merged into the Witness who are the so called souls on the ship? but more so the point of it, and what is the point of having an fleet/armada of them? It would make sense if it was another race of beings, which I initially thought on the reveal years ago, as you would need physical ships to transport physical beings. Are they all empty like the one on the moon that was dormant?
The statues in those ships are the calcified bodies of the race, that made up the Witness. So, they are controlling the ships. Think of those calcified bodies needed, probably playing a role. Those ships are sent to help destroy other races as well. We see how capable they are at destroying.
I think when 'they' say the Gardener can destroy as easily as it creates is a little misleading. I don't think the Traveler can intentionally hurt anything. This is shown by it's only offensive action against the pyramid resulting in life spewing forth inside the pyramid ship. I think the Witness' race blamed the Gardener for not giving them restrictions/rules and allowing them to use their gifts unfettered. It probably resulted in wars and calamities the race pulled off on their own volition. They just blamed the Gardener instead of taking responsibility, like a spoiled child. Or a person blaming their bad behavior on 'God'. I think the Traveler left the Eliksni because they were heading down that same path - they weren't embracing a unified, work for the common good society, and were slowly heading towards the same methodology as the Witness' race I think humanity was different because we had people who might have been tuned into the Travelers goals and intentions. And these people spoke on it's behalf to shape humanities interactions. And those were the Speakers. And whether they were actually communicating with the Traveler or not, they did manage to direct humanity away from that which the Traveler feared. It would explain why The Traveler decided to stay and protect Humanity during/after the collapse. And now, through Humanity, The traveler was able to influence the Hive and the Eliksni into being closer to what it wanted them to be, while blessed by the light.
There are more questions we can ask like why did they merge themselves? Did they merge them selves because they didn’t think themselves powerful enough and why would they choose darkness like think about it we chose darkness and the traveler sauce as a mistake. What if when the witnesses species chose the darkness, he saw it mistake and fled.
I think they all joined together to become the witness to be much more powerful. Probably one of the main reasons if the not the main reason why they are so powerful is because their minds are all connected inside the witness, and the darkness is a power that comes from the mind/consciousness. That is my guess on why the witness' species combined together into the witness
This also explains how the Witness is essentially able to control our ghost, suppress our light, and be unphased by the light beam of the traveler because it has lived with the traveler and light for eons and understands the nature of it.
I think this cutscene should have been in Lightfalls main campaign but we got it now. Better late than never. At least we should have known that the Veil is the winnower
![Felix "Unfair" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Oswujxm2Ag0/mqdefault.jpg)
The witness is race 5 from the artwork that got published years ago and what people always thought would be the veil :)
Also really interesting is that on that picture you can clearly see only one person, a bunch of smoke like stuff and multiple pyramids ships wich indicates they bungie had the idea of a single person resembling a whole civilisation as a whole for a very long like 10 year long time!
Crazy! Is it possible to find a link or what can i google to check out that artwork??
@@slackstarfish8133 3 slack likes starfish flavored hotdog water.
@@victormonte5881 😂😂😂
@@slackstarfish8133
Saying they have no plan is like thinking a 12g bullet to the head will only lead to headache for about 2 days...
But I played the game and I know you are still somehow right by saying that :D
I find it interesting that the Witness’s species found the Traveler in a way that resembles a crash-landing, or even more-so, a growth coming out of the planet.
I think we’re in a loop, like the collapses, but on a grander scale. I think the Traveler is like the Witness in that it is an entire universe- one that was dying. They sent their power to us in hopes that we can defeat the darkness, but instead of destroying it we will become one with it which is something no light wielder has been capable of- turns out we have been attuning to the Veil in the same way as the Traveler this whole time.
I think when the 5th race found the Traveler, it was still sleeping. Recovering. Scared for all life, it prioritizes staying away from the Veil. But as a race becomes more powerful, it almost always becomes corrupt and uses the power of the Traveler to seek out more power. It’s why we stand out- we’re like the Jedi and don’t fight what we hate unless we’re forced to, we just save what we love.
So when the Traveler fled the Witness’ home world it should have collapsed, but, they unified and devoted everything to the Search.
Our ghosts are literal ghosts- people who had lives stripped from them, but they still get to live, reborn through chaos. Stumbling through a new universe.
/head canon theory
@@nailinthefashionretard
Hmm, maybe otherwise, is to resemble a sunrise, because as the Traveler rises upon the horizon they prosper.
I do as well. What was it fleeing when it crashed or what caused it to be born? Are the nine like the traveler, planet born consciousness? Still lots of destiny to uncover and honestly the witness doesnt even seem close to the true threat when you think about it.
@@drivernephi2399 how random
Did anyone notice the Traveler/Gardener being half buried in the ground? That feels like an important hint to something.
That it was buried in the ground?
@@ibitefingers3380like, the Avatar Aang! XD
Defeating The Witness probably separates their connection and we get a new enemy race 🙃
Well it does create, so it probably finished creating the planets and other races. Then decided to take a rest.
It looks more like it was just like a sun/moon rising from below the horizon, not buried.
one thing that i love is that the pyramids are the architectural design choice of its species, and are the ships of choice. that are now the main way the witness projects its power. the pyramids existed before veil was found and now are the fleet of destruction. just something interesting
I can't help but about Flatland when I think of the juxtaposition of the Traveler and the fleet of pyramids.
@@raziele92 Yeah it’s stupid. The pyramids obvious juxtaposition that we’ve grown so familiar with has nothing to actually do with the Traveler. The shapes together even make a ghost shell, and a flower. They are the two most common shakes in nature. Sharp edges for a hungry darkness, perfect circle for the somber light. Retconned! 😉😜
The witness encouraged rhulk to also become the last member of his race, just like the witness, a single entity to represent the species
He's basically like the first Reaper in Mass Effect, evolved to a singular being that thinks it knows best how to shape the galaxy, only difference is its origins are organic instead of AI/machine based.
Yes thats what a Shadow is. Not crazy to think Calus adopted that idea from the Witness
Two things: One, this explains why the Viel was the key for Neomuna's population to, essentially, become one in a virtual world. And two, in the video, we see the Viel but not the tendrils off the back, which have always looked like they could wrap around the Traveler. That is the link the Witness built.
You fight calus in them, literally
Hhhmmm, go to the Veil Containment weekly mission, there you found audios from Maya Sundaresh, it implies that Neomuna is not a byproduct of the Veil, but the Vex (Sorry the Spoiler).
@juan6297Who are you again?
@@macho8240dont respond to him, he’s just baiting
The Veil is the source of darkness. Darkness is the mind. Power over the mind from the mind. The Veil is the Cosmic Mind. And once Traveler and Veil was connected. The Neomunis used this tech and knowledge from the veil like we got all the stuff from the Traveler. And well the Cloudark. A thing were all minds exist without their bodys... Well sounds rlly dark...
Now it makes sense why the witness is so powerful. Darkness is about consciousness and requires strong and complete willpower to control. The witness is an entire race of individuals all fused together and as such would have a will that mara says “speaks louder than any other” (I think) so it makes sense as to why it has such absolute control over darkness
Indeed it’s a terrifying concept and presents the ultimate dilemma. How do you defeat an enemy that is the combination of an entire species?
@@Wildcard120 maybe by splitting it apart back into individuals?
@@myriad8275 perhaps
@@Wildcard120 Good news, if you wound the Witness, as in death blow, you can kill the entire race.
Bad news, you will need some pretty powerful weapon(s) to get a death blow on it.
@@Wildcard120With Telesto?
That’s at least one thing checked off the question checklist thank god
The Witness is so much cruler and more evil than I could've ever imagined. No wonder the Traveler leaves every species it uplifts, I knew there'd be a good reason...
That’s just what happens when a species is given a god that gives no guidance just gifts. Gifts they took for granted and used to try reshape reality
@adamboy0559 they were given paradise, god-tier technology, and freedom to choose whatever direction they wished to go in, and they settled on universal genocide. Because they couldn't handle that their god was mute, and didn't tell them explicitly what to do?
@@MelancholicBodhisattva It must have told the Witness to take prisoners on the edz for some reason.
@@billygoods22 the Traveler? Definitely not
@@MelancholicBodhisattvaNah its more like they achieved so much with the Light that they wanted to find more knowledge, meaning and purpose to the universe. To cut out suffering. And than probably wanted to reshape reality into a universe with no pain or suffering, and that everyone would prosper and achieve what they want but under their godly supervision. They were robbed of this achievement cause the Traveler wants us to endure the suffering, learn from it and raise above. But like you said, most of them take advantage of the power and abuse it to their own will.
But I really truly believe that the Witness race wanted to reshape reality so there is no more suffering ever, but we need those experiences in order for us to understand life and thrive as positive beings
Oh my gosh ok this week was so huge . THE STATUES IJ THE PYRAMID SHIPS ARE THE CALCIFIED REMAINS OF THE WITNESS’S RACE. Holy crap I’ve been waiting on this reveal for so long those damn statues were always so interesting to see. Now we know there the remains for that race. And oh my gosh the witness being the collective consciousness of an entire race wow. The darkness was never the pyramids it came from the veil the veil is the metaphysical counterpart to the traveler. It’s all so much I love the story team so much
My mind is so blown at this...holy fuck.
Yes, I think too that the Veil is the "incarnation" of the Winnower
@@saitomitsurugi18 ikr it’s so damn cool it’s so much they’ve just revealed in one cutscene alone it explains a lot and I’m glad for it so many little details and moving parts set up since shadowkeep moved into place after so many years geez the narrative team cooked
@@sebastienreucheron9365 exactly now we can get rid of the notion of the flower game being literal it’s no longer that simple the gardener is the traveler the winnower is the veil pseudonyms given by the race of the witness it’s all coming together
@@sebastienreucheron9365personally I think the gardener and Winnower are 2 things the witnesses race created. The traveler being the gardener and the witness being the winnower.
It made itself one being out of an entire race to shape the universe into what it sees as its final shape which we assume is nothing. If nothing exists then there is no suffering no death.
I just realised something. The wierd rocks and twisted pillars inside the piramids. I thought it was some kind of art, but these are petrified/calcified bodies. You can see it in the hallway-Witness part of this cutscene.
Does that mean it’s the bodies of the once race the witness was?
@@adamboy0559 Yup. Good chance all statues of darkness we see is one of these bodies.
Came here to say the same thing. It always looked like the witness had a collection of different species, but I always that the more humanoid ones were humans. Love seeing this all come full circle
@@jackbrax7808 kinda dark when you think of it. They incased there bodies and put them in there fleet. Why to show what they once were? Design? A way if remembering there past? So many questions as tk why
Yeap, and its pretty grotesque if you ask me hahaha
Haven't watched the video yet (because it just came out) but, 4 months back, I was playing the WQ dlc and doing Altar of Reflection for the weekly challenge. And Savathûn, for once, spoke the truth here.
"We talked before. What is the Witness? This is the truth...
The Witness was once mortal, its people were blessed by the shadow of Darkness, just as your kind was blessed by Light. In that Darkness, these beings found power and knowledge... but they were not content. Power and knowledge turned to greed and despair. The Witness.. was forever changed."
Something for yall to ponder
they literally told us lmfao
@@pablo2967 In extremely vague detail
@@Blankblackbox yeah yeah I know but it's still funny to think about
Yes! Nice catch bro! Yo understand it pretty well, I have seen that as well, the Witness is just a pure manifestation of greed and resentment.
Just a few seconds of that cut-scene and we already know infinitely more about the Veil than the entirety of Lightfall conveyed, Good lord, what was so hard about that?
Why take $ for one campaign when you can gouge for a campaign and a few seasons? You've got to understand, Bungie is just a small indie developer /s
@@craptaincrunch5827 never knew small indie developers were worth 3 billion dollars
Honestly, to me, this doesn't change the Unveiling book. After this cutscene, this is the idea i had (somewhat similar to what Myelin said): The Unveiling still happened. This was the origin of the universe's creation. When the Gardener and the Winnower bled into our reality, they were then linked to primeval avatars of themselves- the Traveler and the Veil. The Traveler emerged into creation from the Witness' world, blessing their civilization. Just like the cutscene, the race then prospers and have their own golden age. But they become unsatisfied with this stagnation it has created. They desire to know why they were blessed with the light and what their purpose for having this gift was. But as always, the Traveler gifts, but never answers.
Enter the Veil. On their journey for purpose, they learn about the Veil. They encounter the Veil and experience a sort of "mind-meld" when linking with it. They experience story of creation in their minds, including the "flower game" concept, and see how tumultuous the Gardener's powers can be and how the Winnower was there to try and stop the Gardener's actions. They see the Winnower as order and structure. The purpose of the creation of life. To be controlled and have a guideline on how it should follow. Life is created...and then death follows with destruction, in perpetuity.
With this information flowing through them, they become engrossed with this concept. They've determined that by bringing the two universal forces together, they can have access to the powers of the universe. They then become determined to become like the Winnower, even thinking they can be the Winnower. From that knowledge, they also learn the about the "first knife" ( I believe that to be the powers the Witness has demonstrated to have. To cut reality in whatever means it desires).
The Traveler denies them this concept by fleeing, realizing that this race has become corrupted and has been given knowledge no living creature should have and could possibly comprehend properly. They have effectively become "drunk with power and knowledge".
With the Traveler fleeing, they then preform their mass suicide ritual to merge the race's collective consciousness into one being, with all they knowledge they possess of the Darkness and the history of creation. They have effectively now created themselves believe that they ARE the Winnower.
And that's what I got from this cutscene linking with The Unveiling.
I definitely agree with you. I definitely think the unveiling lore book it was the true darkness talking to us. I think the only way we get through is reconnecting the traveler and veil together. Where it leads to might be the original garden. Just a thought why did we get strand a power the witness doesn’t even have. I think it is the actual winnower that gave us the power because of the power witness has. I do believe the traveler might actually be gardener entity and veil is the winnower.
What gets me is what actually caused the collapse. Was it the massive amount of energy it released to push the witness and darkness back.
What’s a winnower
Interesting that the traveler had "wounds" when the first species found it and also it seems to imply the traveler absorbed the veil into itself before it fled. Makes me even more curious to know what type of world is beyond that portal/inside the traveler.
Also getting big time Reaper vibes from the witness, he's basically Harbinger created from the leviathan race in Mass Effect.
every time i watch destiny videos i get an insatiable desire to play the game. But when I start it, the game doesn't want me to play it…
Interesting that Nezarec mentions in RoN that the veil "contains the sapids secrets of the Witness's first victims..."
I wanna see the tie in for this dialogue! It’s peaked my interest since I heard it in the raid.
1 thing I found for sure, we know the Witness origins now but who's behind the Gardener and Winnower entities is completely unknown, if you observe the interactions of that civilization with the Veil, they came into understanding of Darkness according to their own terms based on their frustration towards life (that besides having everything they wanted more), obsession and resentment against the Traveler.
Traveler never spoked, also the Veil, we may never know what are those things from a logical rational point of view and I would like to remain those entities as a mystery, it gives more life into the story, and that kind of things has a value on it.
Maybe as we progress and we reach the Final Shape we may know what is behind that and the real individual or something behind those entities that at this moment are only vague ideals and people like the Witness has a misconception towards Darkness only to please his own objectives.
As for now I think Gardener and Winnower more than an entity is a Gnostic debate (And I don't use the word philosophy because Destiny has more Gnostic elements than philosophical).
At the moment the objective is only pursue the Witness and kill it, we may found a truth here and there, but maybe Bungie is saving several mysteries to continue on a future adventure not related under the light and dark.
The Veil is the counterpart to the Traveler. It gives Dark and the other gives light... so what you think is the veil truely? The Witness is our Counterpart. We are the many lightusers to protec the life... not only our God. So the Witness are many Darknessusers in one.... The Witness is our destiny. Its the reason why we was choosen as lightbearers...
Unveiling is from the witness perspective. They are the windowed, and in the cutscene Asha Saya they called the Teaveler the Gardener, so I think that unveiling is the mythos of the Witnesses civilization
So, they were so obsessed with the Traveler that the gave their lives just to prevent so called Chaos that the Traveler would bring, but it seems,, that species and its pursuit of the Traveler is what is causing chaos
The story that I picked up is that they wanted power to create, and were not happy with what they were given. Then the Traveler denied them that god power. They cried about it and decided to go on a rampage, lying and destroying other civilizations that the Taveler wanted to help.
So, you are right about the Witness being the chaos.
Also explains Cayde being back. If what’s behind that portal alows us to reshape reality, who says only the witness can reshape reality, why can’t we.
One of savathins truths was that we will get the power to take worlds, so maybe
@@kyle45887the power to take worlds was already one of the truths proved in the root of nightmares raid where we there’s a section where you move around planets
Interestingly enough, there is is designs for The Witness in Destiny 1. Im having a hard time finding it again, but in a panel before destiny was released, they were talking about the different types of enemies the players will encounter. one of the artwork shown is The Witness
if you find it give me the link
That is utterly mind blowing
Thanks for the vid I don't have season of the deep so your insight on this was awesome (even though I watched this rather late)
Keep up the good work evaze!
This was really awesome and made a lot of sense!
I just wish this was part of the campaign since them stretching it out really hurt the experience for a lot of people which is real shame and something I hope they learn from.
They know that since always. They just opted doing like this so that we kept paying and paying and buying all games, passes, and packs for many years. It wont change, unfortunately
I don't really see the issue tbf just cuz this way means the game gets to be played still and it's not everything done in a month and then a year of fuck all happening 😅
There's also the problem of how tha fuck do you put this in the campaign after all this is told by the long girl
How did Savathun get the veil to Neptune? Why was the traveller below the surface? So many questions. This cut scene should have been in Lightfall.
Stole it from Nezarec when she killed him.
One thing that we can also understand now is why the Traveler suddenly decided to make a stand against the Pyramids during the collapse.
It was not because of anything to do with us or our system, it was because of Savathun.
Savathun took the Veil away from the Witness.
As long as the Witness had the Veil, they could attempt the link with the Traveler and start the process for the Final Shape, but with it being out of reach, the Traveler was free to strike back.
I guess the Witness is correct in saying that there is no meaning in the universe but that's kida the point.
Meaning isn't something that is given it's something you make for yourself, despite the Witnesses race being so advanced they needed a higher being to give them purpose
The witness just lies to everyone, like it always does. There is meaning to the universe. The meaning is that life is a struggle and is precious.
The Witness just wants power to become God. It is akin to the fallen angels.
@@cainabel6356 yes but the meaning of life is only meaningful TO life, life didnt have to exist and if it didn't or suddenly stopped existing it wouldn't mean a thing
Grateful and impressed that you got this video out so fast. Glad as always to be a subscriber. Thanks for helping to make the weekly wait more interesting.
Those veiled statues we saw in the past are pretty much a callback to the time before the Witness; it depicts the beings that would once became the Witness.
I feel like a little more detail is needed on why the Witness race came to fear the Traveller. The way the Witness talks about the light being destruction sounds like something big happened.
I would also be fascinated by how this ties in with the supposed destruction of a race that embraced the darkness.
If you followed the words of the Witness, you would know the Witness is just a power hungry being. Before they merged into that creature, they were just normal aliens. They found the Traveler, which blessed them with gifts, creating an utopia for them. Then they got infuriated becasue it would not talk to them. They sought answers, and found the Veil. Then learned they can become gods. The Traveler denied them this. They got angry and decided to wreck and destroy all creation, saying it is all chaos and the Traveler is an agent of chaos.
The Witness seeks to destroy all creation, becoming a god. The witness is evil.
The Witness witnessed the Traveler taking a bathe & what it saw shook him/her to the core.
isn't 'they' easier?
@@uyuyuyuyastop it
@@TheRagingSpartan_03it literally is…?
@@KinkShamer stop it
I mean…😂
So the witness is basically the anti-spiral from gurren lagann
Reminds me of Old Warhammer 40k lore of the Emperor of Man being the result of Shamans committing ritualistic suicide to combine their souls and psychic potential into one being.
Awesome video as always, just a quick note, I think you released the Eris/Drifter video a little too soon, the radio message from this week could’ve been a nice addition.
Props to the bungie narrative team to be able to cobble together a story that makes sense the from the leftovers of a chaotic development cycle.
Still a mess but yeah better than nothing
I don’t think so, i thought it was great.
It’s become really apparent that that’s the case unfortunately. I don’t think I can say that they’ve done a great job. In fact what we have now feels lazy. But I’m glad you and most people like it.
The mess was their fault to begin with. They had everything, and decided to scrap it all.
This was already settled before LF’s release, they works on all this around the same time.
That actually explains a lot! Thanks!
Is it possible the Witness is us from the future??? Traveled back in time to destroy the traveler before we succumb to our future being dependent on the traveler? Hence why the Darkness said don’t you recognize us at the end of Shadowkeep.
This
I don't believe so. From what I have gathered from this video. The Witness was an entire alien species which wanted help, against their struggle. They found the Traveler, which blessed them with gifts. Then eventually they got fustrated that it did not talk to them, and were not happy with the gifts it gave them. So they sought out for meaning. They came across the Veil thing. Then figured out that its connection with the Traveler, learning they could become gods. Then the Traveler, knowing their plan decided to deny them god power.
Basically they wanted to become gods and were not happy that the Traveler denied them that power. They are just greedy and power hungry evil aliens. For some reason this kind of reminds me of God and the Fallen Angels.
@@cainabel6356 Perhaps they are a sort of alternate reality humans, where the Traveler never had to stop a collapse because a collapse never happened, they were never gifted the power of the light, so they became greedy and sought greater power themselves, heck, they might even be from a different reality, possible a "First" reality, of many, and their work is to finally gain power, and any universe that they have already visited, was a drastically failed attempt.
@@cainabel6356Literally, lol what a silly theory when they explicitly tell you his origin
@@dakarai47 - What I stated is what they are, not a theory. The witness is just one race, piled into one. The entire race were just a bunch of babies, throwing a temper tantrum because they wanted power over everything.
this is basically mass effect and the reapers all over again
"Welcome, we've been expecting you."
If you look at the cutscene displaying the city being built, the river is so similar to the final shape teaser.
We really needed this.
I love how more and more nietzschean the story of Destiny becomes. I'm not talking of the usual ''Alpha_male_regain_masculinity" interpretations of Nietzsche but rather the ones you find by reading Barbara Stiegler. It reminds me first a LOT of the Gardener / winnover story, and by extension the Traveler / Witness opposition.
Nietzsche had this conception of life as something perpetually in tension between stasis (Apollo) and flow (Dionysus). Apollo is the god of ideas and concepts, it is important as new experiences in life are by definition new and so need to be incorporated into something that has meaning for us humans and we do it trough the creation of concepts. But according to Nietzsche and Stiegler it is not possible to live in a world were oly these concepts would exist as it would be a world where nothing new happens. And accoridng to Nietzsche it would make us unable to gather new experiences (which is for him the meaning of life). So the world would be a safe place but this would not last very long as it would collapse on itself. The Witness wxishes for a world where there are no new experiences, nothing new to be crated and where everything can be controlled because of his past, nothing new means no disasters.
On the other side Dionysus is the flow of things and of life itself, non focused into something fully understandable by humans and living things. It has yet to be brought into something ''livable'' as it is so different from the way we live that we couldn't survive in an environement where everything is always new. This is the traveller as it brings something new but also all the unwanted failures that comes with a new creation.
That's why according to Nietzsche we need to stand in this tension between Apollo and Dionysus, between stasis and flow.
The black garden could be a simulation of the inside of the traveler and the black heart a simulation of the veil.Trying to do what the witness did now with the traveler
destiny's lore is so good
I remember the words of the Winnower in the Unveiling Book when he warns the Gardener which consequences he will get when he will start his plan. To give the Flowers everything ( the free will )... and they wanted more... so they seek for more... The Witness is the Reason why we was choosen as the Lightbearers... to protec the life. He needs an other plan... a change... for the Game and he found a species a bit similar to the first ones... He found us... and maybe we was the right ones... thats why he doesnt fleed anymore. And than he gives the light... like the Veil gives the darkness. So the Witness is our real counterpart like the veil to the Traveler... The Witness is our Destiny.
The original veil that they found as shown in the cutscene did not have the roots at the bottom of it which symbolizes the veils ties to the light.
Interesting theory, so you also imply that the Traveler is basically a giant seed?
@@Popexify I think that the veil is actually originally purely dark ( it was shown with only its dark part) and that the traveler was the one who corrupted it with light.
The Witness reveal made laugh. He looks like a Looney Tunes character... a waskally wabbit
Yes, but WHAT. IS. THE. STATUE?
I've been wondering this ever since I first saw the one in the Europa pyramid. My first thought upon hearing about The Veil was that statue and how it's a seemingly-humanoid figure draped in a veil. I thought that it made sense, given that a veil's purpose is to cover, and if you were to drop a veil over the Traveler, you could cover its light as well. When Savathun said that the Witness, "Isn't the Darkness but wears it like a cloak," I thought again about the statue. My theory is that the Witness was the figure, and the Darkness was represented by the shroud covering it. Then we got the actual Witness, and now we have the actual Veil, but still there's that statue. What the hell is it?
Totally loose theory but here it goes. I think the witness is the first knife, created from the traveler and the veil. But i think that the nine is also aware of this as they say that "only two have transcended their design an hourglass that counts down with infinite patience, and a forgotten blade sharpened anew." I believe the witness is that forgotten blade, that "first knife." Mara being the hourglass that was created by the light and dark, the Witness' species being thrown into a golden age by the traveller but trading it for the dark when they learned from the veil. Then when they merged, they became the first knife, a weapon for the darkness that was created using both the light and the dark. The witness' species created the pyramid ships themselves with the help of the travelers golden age, but then they became the witness they used the powers of the darkness and the veil to do so, thus they're a creation of both. This would explain how they have both transcended their design as they didn't start out as the awoken or the witness but were different before they encountered light and dark.
@@GetGwapThisYear I could see that as well lowkey🤔
Saw this the 1st day this season launched so i already knew. Thought it would've come at the end of the season
I’m Honkai Star Rail, there’s lore surrounding a God of ‘Abundance’ or life. However, this also explicitly causes chaos because there needs to be alancé in the universe. Another God known as the ‘Hunt’ is responsible for finding and eradicating the creations of the God of Abundance, in simple terms. That’s pretty much what’s happening here. The disruption of balance is what causes the war between the Gardener and the Winnower. The Witness in the other hand, is just a religious race of people that interpreted their role in the universe in a very extreme way. This would imply that the Darkness/Veil isn’t inherently an evil force, and that fundamentally it is similar to the traveler. The real evil here who is disrupting the natural balance is the Witness
Ya savathun literally says that the witness isn’t the darkness but jus an entity that wears it like a cloak
Vex had the black heart in D1. Now the big bad calls the traveller the pale heart that holds a key. I think the source of all these amazing power is in the traveller and witness will get it then eliminate both the veil and traveller to become the universe's boss.
I think we have to admit the witness/winnower has a point. It can't just be empty growth forever. We need a new synthesis of these extremes.
"It can't be empty growth forever"
Haaaaave you met capitalism?
@@duke605I need some time alone with this comment....
@@tenforeword129yes😅
The Witness is not the Winnower, according to the Cinematic the Traveler is the Gardener and it's counterpart is the Veil as the Winnower, the first civilization took the Veil to its planet to study it and learned about the Darkness (Meaning that this does not come from them but from the Veil).
I can't tell the who is the Winnower, but is not the Witness, the Witness is just a byproduct of the understanding of the Darkness by studying the Veil (and according the their conclusion after it).
In the lore book unlocked after the mission Ikora says that this came out of obsession and resentment, so the Witness is just an entire civilization into 1 body with the objective due to a misconception about the Darkness.
Destiny has given us several clues around the story, the last city, humanity, has achieved meaning by helping each other along other civilizations and races, this we are reinforcing along the way with or without the presence of the Traveler, on the other side the civilization dragged into this gnosticism known as "Final Shape" never found the truth we have, meaning that they were greedy, not satisfied by their own existence and limits, instead they decide to push further, only because of greed and obsession.
@@PopexifyThe gardener and his counterpart are concepts of the "philosophy" of the witness species, apparently these two gods do not exist, the winnower itself would just be a concept, something to control the Garden, anyone who can control the garden in the vision of the witness is the winnower. That is, from the moment the witness acquired the power to control the garden (universe), it became what would be the winnower according to its own "philosophy". The veil is not the winnower, because the winnower is something "created" from the witness's perspective, and since there is no conflict between the traveler and the veil, the veil does not control the garden, so it could not be the "winnower"
Here's a little tidbit: The strange sculptures dotted across the insides of the Pyramid ships aren't 'Sculptures' but the calcified remains of the Witnesse's former selves.
Does the Witness see beauty in it's metamorphosis? or does it use the bodies as a subjugation tactic in a "Our sacrifice was greater than anything you will ever do." kind of way?
The Witness species really had all they needed and achieved a perfect planet just to be unhappy and crave more
Yep, they sought more power, to become gods themselves. Too greedy.
I have a thought on how to enter the Portal properly, but I'll try to shorten it so it still makes sense.
In the resent show case for the final shape, Cayde was there, so here's a strong theory, he a knowledge from when he was alive as a human and threw his other exo phases while the Whitness has been alive longer and has memory's and knowledge with the darkness, so the true way of entering the traveler would be having all your memory's before and after being a guardian.
If that's the case, then Crow would be our way in?
Reminds me of Anti-Spiral in Gurren Laggan
Low key ngl
Finally some context! This really should've been included in the Lightfall Campaign...
It technically is being revealed in Lightfall, Lightfall is the yearly theme, the seasons are chapters to that theme.
By that logic, are they going to stretch out the ending over the year of Final Shape?
@@nickkoch6740 Why would you think anything other than that?
I think this revelation shows where The Witness and it's Disciples have gained their immense power.
The Darkness is associated with consciousness, not death and winnowing. Instead, The Witness found that power could be gained in the Darkness from death.
Think about it, when a being especially a consciousness undergoes death (especially a traumatic one) it invokes a cacophony of powerful thoughts, emotions, and even memory. Such death could reverberate among the Weave or even The Ascendant Realm, releasing paracasual energy.
Now imagine amplifying that energy by the death of billions and the power that could be siphoned of it.
The travel got that one toxic ex that just won’t stop chasing his ass down 💀💀💀💀
Also The Hunt's purpose then is to control the Abundance, like a gardener trimming a hedge so it doesn't grow out of control.
This is a mirror of the gardener and the winnower, a natural balance of the universe. Even so, I don’t see the Witness as trying to enforce this balance, it seems more like it wants to kill the traveler completely.
Also worth mentioning the traveler also indirectly created the Witness, which also means it accidentally made the Hive, and all the Darkness disciples. The Veil, or the actual Darkness, on the other hand, has done virtually nothing wrong (Although it doesn’t stop it’s followers, probably cause like the traveler it’s a ‘silent’ being)
Makes me wonder if the Traveler also has a ‘Witness’ or would that just be the next Speaker?
The Winnower ( The Veil ) tryd to warn the Gardener about his plan to change the Game... everything what he touchs would change... Where is light theres always darkness.... its a fact. The Traveler gives his flowers everything ( The free will ) but he never saw what he would created... but thats only written in the lore books about the gardener and the winnower... maybe its just a big Game.. with a big plan behind it... The Witness was the great unbalance in the universe... so we bring the balance...as the many lightbearers against the many darkness users in one being...
The Witness has stated that life is chaotic and should end. Meaning they want to end all life. We have seen that the Traveler tries to help civilizations out, while the Witness seems to corrupt and destroy them. Now we know why the Witness seeks to destroy all life. They were angry that they could not become gods, because the Traveler denied them. They are basically just greedy and power hungry.
The traveler traveled and the witness witnessed
A couple questions I'm left with:
What made the witness leave after Savathun stole the veil? What would make the witness retreat like that?
Asha specifically says this species was the Witness' first victims. So is the Witness just inhabiting this mass of species or what?
As I understand it, Savathun gained the Witness’ trust and tricked it into believing the Veil was elsewhere.
The Witness is this alien species, their entire civilization condensed into one entity.
The Witness's first victims are the first race that the Traveler abandoned throughout its life.
After that The Witness continues to watch other races and civilizations become victims of this abandonment
@@sageastreaus7905 - Actually, the Traveler never abandoned the civilizations. It retreated from the first race it helped, which tried to enslave it and take its power. We know this because the Witness was the first race the Traveler helped. We see them corrupting, lying to, every civilization. We see its endless campaign to end the Taveler or control it. For the Hive, it lied about the Taveler and caused the Hive's race to die or be corrupted, eventually destroying it. For the Fallen, the Witness chased off the Traveler. For humanity, the Witness tried to destroy the Traveler outright, and the Traveler decided to stand firm to save humanity.
If there is actually a true enemy and threat to all civilizations, it would be the Witness.
The witness itself is the winnower but the traveler wouldn't allow it at first but seemily now the witness has made the connection and is going to shape the universe into, The Final Shape.
You do know the Witness's final shape is the death of the universe and everything within it?
I hate how the witness is essentially just the travelers crazy ex that’s all it is
I think its hypocritical for the witness to critisize the ruin rought by the light, while encouraging rhulk and others to bring ruin amongst the stars
If you look at what the Taveler has done for civilizations, do you think it has brought ruin to civilizations? I think it only brings uopias, giving free will to those that it has blessed.
Then look at what the Witness has done to those civilizations. For the Hive, it lied to them. It corrupted them with that lie. Now they have to kill in order to survive. So, the Witness has destroyed the Hive's civilization. Then for the Fallen, it chased the Traveler away from them. Then they collapsed due to the Witness. Finally humanity. What happened. The Witness attacked humanity and the Traveler. The Traveler stops the Witness by sacrificing itself. This gives enough proof that the Witness is the chaos that is destorying civilizations.
So, My prediction of The Witness being like the Anti-Spiral from Guran Lagann is true.
Now that I think about it Savathun is kind of a good guyish character
Savathun and her race were lied to by the Witness. The Witness is the chaos, the evil. Savathun sought to protect the Traveler from what the Witness wants, which is to gain the power to reform the universe, so it can destroy it.
If anything, we will probably see Savathun again, except she will be on our side. Just like the Fallen and that Empire race is on our side. Then all the races that were decieved, corrupted or almost destroyed by the Witness, will be united against the Witness. The whole point of the Traveler, the Gardner, was to find a race that would help each other, to keep life sacred and alive. Humanity is the race that the Traveler came across, which will bring all the other races together.
The victims are transforming merge one being the witness!!!
So did they create the darkness or was it already existing before... it says they created a power from consciousness and shows them building a pyramid in the cut scene so did they or not?
They should of released this cutscene with the raid, everyone was so confused and would of been so happy
I think the difference in the light and dark saga when comparing our species to the witness’s is that us, guardians who are at based earthlings, have hope,love, compassion, control over our thoughts and conscience… those are how humans prosper healthily in community and society (*not referring to irl). The witness in turn is corrupted by the darkness and is only able to see the glass half empty as it complements their needs/wants, i.e to reshape reality and have a purpose. Guardians in turn as shown during those 7 yrs are able to wield the light and darkness not for greed, not to become king of universe but rather protect what was left for them to love. Its sad to see incredible writing told throughout yrs getting overshadowed to bs after bs from bungo
That means the traveler thought savthun, orxy, and xivu could help against the witness but the witness got to them first 🤔
Correct.
Also, it chased the Traveler from the Fallen. One reason why the Traveler left the Fallen.
One reason why the chaos entity destroying civilizations is the Witness itself.
I was always sure that the witness was some Antispiral type alien, damm this is good lore.
I think This reshaped Reality is This Kind a desert rivers and forests themed area in the teaser Trailer
Yet we still dont know what the Veil is
The only thing i don't understand: if the traveller was connected with the veil in some way why does it refuse the link with the veil and flees?
The Traveler is a being, with a will of its own, helping civilizations get to a utopia age. The Witness's species decided that it was not enough. They sought to become gods, to reshape the universe the way they wanted it to be. That means destroying everything the Gardner wants, aka the Traveler. So, it refuses and flees, stopping the Witness's species from destroying what it creates.
The Witness and the species that formed it, are evil.
So are most of the beings on ‘display’ in pyramid ships the Witness’ species?
From this cutscene we know whats true and false in Savanthun riddles.And theres three events that will happen for sure
-Taken King will rise again
-In the end our destiny lies beyond solar system
-Hive are not the last to be chosen by light
so hes basically Hatchiyack for plan to eradicate the saiyans
This may be a dumb question, and slightly off topic but relating to the witness and darkness. What is the point of all the ships? If no one is on them? We see all of the pyramidal ships awake,they travel to Earth, one is on the moon, and we see the floating souls or what have you, but if they all merged into the Witness who are the so called souls on the ship? but more so the point of it, and what is the point of having an fleet/armada of them? It would make sense if it was another race of beings, which I initially thought on the reveal years ago, as you would need physical ships to transport physical beings. Are they all empty like the one on the moon that was dormant?
The statues in those ships are the calcified bodies of the race, that made up the Witness. So, they are controlling the ships. Think of those calcified bodies needed, probably playing a role. Those ships are sent to help destroy other races as well. We see how capable they are at destroying.
What if we got hold of the power to shift reality?
what if we created the reality of Marathon?
The "we" and "us" makes so much sense now
So that’s mean that veil is darkness and traveler is light and together they make something else?
Together they’re capable of reshaping reality itself since reality at it’s core, is just pure Light and Darkness.
This will be awesome
Yeah it shocked me that they finally showed us how it begun.
xur has been telling us since D1 that our traveler has a dark mirror
Anyone else see parallels between the Witness and the Anti-Spirals of TTGL, plus the Templars from Assassin’s Creed ?
I see parallels with God and the fallen angels. They had everything and they wanted more, greedy and prideful.
I think when 'they' say the Gardener can destroy as easily as it creates is a little misleading. I don't think the Traveler can intentionally hurt anything. This is shown by it's only offensive action against the pyramid resulting in life spewing forth inside the pyramid ship. I think the Witness' race blamed the Gardener for not giving them restrictions/rules and allowing them to use their gifts unfettered. It probably resulted in wars and calamities the race pulled off on their own volition. They just blamed the Gardener instead of taking responsibility, like a spoiled child. Or a person blaming their bad behavior on 'God'.
I think the Traveler left the Eliksni because they were heading down that same path - they weren't embracing a unified, work for the common good society, and were slowly heading towards the same methodology as the Witness' race
I think humanity was different because we had people who might have been tuned into the Travelers goals and intentions. And these people spoke on it's behalf to shape humanities interactions. And those were the Speakers. And whether they were actually communicating with the Traveler or not, they did manage to direct humanity away from that which the Traveler feared. It would explain why The Traveler decided to stay and protect Humanity during/after the collapse.
And now, through Humanity, The traveler was able to influence the Hive and the Eliksni into being closer to what it wanted them to be, while blessed by the light.
That's actually pretty good
Exactly how I see it. I did not see the Fallen the same way at first, but your theory makes more sense than mine about the Fallen.
How do you access this?
Nevermind lol
Is this from the ghost of the deep dungeon or the raid
The seasonal story of season of the deep.
They're the anti-spiral from gurren lagann! I knew it!!!
There are more questions we can ask like why did they merge themselves? Did they merge them selves because they didn’t think themselves powerful enough and why would they choose darkness like think about it we chose darkness and the traveler sauce as a mistake. What if when the witnesses species chose the darkness, he saw it mistake and fled.
There’s a real argument to be made that the traveller sees us as failures to protect the it. Hence why Savathun and her hive were given the light.
I think they all joined together to become the witness to be much more powerful. Probably one of the main reasons if the not the main reason why they are so powerful is because their minds are all connected inside the witness, and the darkness is a power that comes from the mind/consciousness. That is my guess on why the witness' species combined together into the witness
Its like the Core from Amphibia.
the unveiling lore book is a prohecy we are playing out
I had a feeling that the Witness was a being comprised of its origin species. The smokey faces tipped me off and the use of "we".
TMW The Witness is actually like the Anti Spiral from Gurren Lagann...
This also explains how the Witness is essentially able to control our ghost, suppress our light, and be unphased by the light beam of the traveler because it has lived with the traveler and light for eons and understands the nature of it.
So the lost 5th darkness enemy race is witness
I think this cutscene should have been in Lightfalls main campaign but we got it now. Better late than never. At least we should have known that the Veil is the winnower
Every time the traveler left, the civilization it leaves collapses.