I'd be down with an outright ban to Dynamic Punch too honestly, thats a simple ban and the move is just lame/uncompetitive. Never sees use besides Machamp anyway Suspect Thread: www.smogon.com/forums/threads/dpp-ou-machamp-suspect-test.3756736 jimothycool.com Horse Council Merch available until end of December.
Sad to see machamp, fraternal twin of the centaur(four arms two legs) which is itself a cousin to horses see this kind of complex family tree infighting. If he is pruned from this tree at least he will confuse everyone on the way down.
we tried to initiate a ban of dynamic punch, but the authorities of smogon refused a suspect test of a move, same thing for iron head they'd rather ban rachi
I see the confusion, but do not be misled, Machamp is no gentleman. He is a brute with no respect for tradition societal conventions. All I did was switch in and he is punching me? No “Greetings, how are you on this fine morning?” It’s utterly disrespectful.
Banning the entire pokemon Machamp without confronting Rachi's iron head (which imo honestly cuts the entire format's fun in half) would be absurd. Ban the move dynamic punch and complex ban rachi alongside iron head and the format is instantly way better imo. I was with Jimothy earlier in the year arguing that smogon's banning was in a decent place but there has been a lot of confused logic behind some bans recently that it's hurt the fun for sure
Jirachi would then shift to using Headbutt, forcing people to use ghost types just to be able to play the game. Stuff like this is why modern combos like Rough Skin + Rocky Helmet work
@ Headbutt is half the damage, and an easier type to deal with. The problem isn't that a rachi that can flinch is an auto-win button; if it was it would've been banned over a decade ago. The problem is that it's unfun coin-flipping AND it's very strong. Being forced to switch to headbutt would remove the second half of the problem. Besides, a complex ban could just remove headbutt from rachi's set as well and absolutely nothing would be lost
if machamp gets banned i am running dynamic punch breloom. and metagross and tyranitar you know what, the whole team will be punching. dynamically. and they will not miss. if dynamic punch has zero fans, know that the notorious anti-machamp activist jimothy cool has successfully assassinated me.
the community voted on machamp to get suspected, smogon isnt some evil council, they held a survey to see if the playerbase thinks machamp is too much.
@hatyyy they want to play a 1v1 fox only final destination style game, but they are playing pokemon. Ideally they need to ban all statuses, flinching, make every move never miss then we can start playing the Ideal form of pokemon.
Amen, 80-90% of bans are superfluous and simply end up creating the next most annoying thing. Listening to the playerbase too much creates an entitled community, not a balanced game.@@590488
I think the reason why people go "what about Jirachi???" is because to an outsider it seems weird to accuse Machamp of these crimes when Jirachi has been doing the same thing for longer while also having a lot more usage. It's as if the SSBM community said "projectile spamming is broken!!" and then decided to ban Samus first before taking a look at Falco
Nicki detected Edit: I don't play this format much, but from what I've seen Jirachi is a good deal less problematic than Machamp because Machamp relies on D-Punch in a way Jirachi doesn't for Iron Head.
Decemeber 19, 2024 With Machamp’s No Guard ability, the rules of probability didn’t apply to me. Dynamic Punch wasn’t just a gamble-it was a promise. The second their Pokémon switched in, I felt it: that electric anticipation right before impact. Machamp didn’t hesitate, didn’t falter. Four fists, two ready for business, and one Dynamic Punch locked on like it was destiny itself. There was no room for luck, no coin flip, no “what if.” It hit. It always hits. The confusion spread like wildfire. Their Pokémon staggered, wild-eyed, unsure of friend or foe. Its attempts to strike back were laughable, flailing uselessly as it smacked itself in the face. I didn’t even tell Machamp to move for a moment. I just let it stand there, stoic, watching the chaos unfold, arms folded in a silent mock
@jimothycool yeah true, at least jirachi cant do much to mons like heatran. Unfortunate that theres no king in gen 4 that can resist fighting dark and rock
@@jimothycool I feel like it could be easily countered by just running any sleep move since they're guaranteed to hit no matter what if people are worried about it.
a wise ctc once said “whats a horse to a dinosaur.. aerodactl” so would that make the aerodynamic aerodactyl a horse, thus an imposing threat or potential ally to the mighty macgargo’s reign? a serious inquiry, thank you
Tbh I'd just ban the DPP council. Snow Cloak ban is unjustifiable in the grand scheme of the tier and suspect testing Machamp while allowing Jirachi to run around, knowing full well that complex bans would immediately solve the tier's issues, is ridiculously stubborn. DPP seems like it is being held back by the very people who are supposed to allow it to move forward.
Nah you know whats stubborn constantly calling for complex bans despite the higher ups at smogon (NOT THE GENERATION COUNCIL) stating that complex bans are off the table.
@@mattgibson9337What you said amounts too "You know what the problem is? Asking for due justice when the court already decided your guilty" Why be complacent when things are operating in a manner which is far from optimal ? And no one asked for "constant" complex bans. Snow Cloak + hail setting on same team is the closest thing to a "complex" ban we ever wanted which could simply be counted over evasion Claus, while keeping the sand viel mins banned due to Turanitar and Hippo being far more common than Obamasow. A dynamic punch ban is not complex. It's 1 move which most of you have 0 issue when it was baton pass. What this boils down too is boring uncreative players not seeing value in Machamp outside of cheese and so being fine with throwing the baby out with the bath water. I hope the future handlers of smogon can do better than the current old head and their enablers
The thing is jirachi adds a lot of positive stuff to the tier and meta without jirachi is Def worse than meta with rachi. The best solution is iron head jirachi is terrible. Machamp adds nothing to the tier positively and lead metagame would just shift to gallade and Lucario
You know who would never get banned? Yamper, as he is the most fair and loved competitive pokemon of all, and he is a valued representative of the corgi counsel.
The problem is dynamic punch never missing. Not machamp itself. I’ll never understand not doing a “complex ban” in a situation like this because at the end of the day this is just a battle simulator. They have these super specific things though that aren’t allowed, because they are “technically” impossible, for example you can’t use shiny articuno and have the move refresh in gen 3 and raikou isn’t allowed to learn shadow ball unless it is shiny. I can’t remember the thing with greninja either where battle bond can only be a certain gender. But people have coke math and made videos of how it is almost impossible to get these Pokémon legitimately and have the EV trained specifically to battle competitively in an actual Nintendo sponsored event. Just ban dynamic punch and your problem goes away. You can still lead machamp,
2:38 Game Freak allowed the most notable and insightful Pokemon Social Media Influencer; Jimothy Cool to preview gen 11's new Rotom-G form. I, for one, am immensely excited.
Rotom-Ghost has already been out as a great switch in due to its ghost typing, making it a ghost who can't be hit by dynamic punch. The ghost type ghost can ghost the machamp to ghost the non ghosted pokemon, but payback could ghost you back from machamp. So don't always rely on ghost type ghosts like rotom-ghost, as ghosts can also be ghosted themself for super effective damage.
@@bradfjord Ghost types ghost fighting types, unless you are a ghost fighting type and ghost fighting types but also can't ghost other ghosts. Ghost types can't ghost fighting types, and fighting types can't ghost ghosts. Everyone is ghosting ghosts, but fighting types can't. That's why rotom-ghost is a good switch in to ghost the dynamic punch from machamp, the fighting type. Machamp can't ghost ghosts. Unless the Machamp runs the move payback, as to show payback for ghosting them, they can ghost ghosts well.
As someone who plays pretty much only Gen4, I'll be voting for It if I qualify, but it would be so much simpler to just ban Dynamic Punch. It doesn't have to be a "complex" ban - literally just ban the move no matter what pokemon it is ran on. The move is shit and even more luck based when you use it without NG anyway. Machamp without NG+DP is fine. Noguard without DP is fine. Dynamic punch is not fine. But anyway, 76% of the community wanted it banned and for good fucking reason. I think it is a waste to not just ban the problem move and instead ban the whole mon, but oh well, I'm still going to be voting yes because fuck playing against Machamp.
Yeh dynamic punch and zap cannon easily fullfil the criteria for moves that should have been banned year back. If a move is strong and has low accuracy its uncompetive as it turn the game into rng luck game. It also the reason sleep was banned, it was too luck based and to strong if it landed.
I think the only reason that Dynamic Punch has not been banned is simply because a coin flip for huge damage and confusion is never a thing you want to gamble on, so by being a coin flip nobody would seriously use Dynamic Punch. Furthermore, Dynamic Punch effectively being Machamp’s signature move make people think Machamp is the issue rather than that move. And while the fact that No Punch Dynamic Guard is Machamp’s thing has held true so far, Pokémon has increasingly become competitive. The Paldea region Pokemon alone are generally the top tier Pokemon. Who’s to say in Generation 10 a Pokemon with powerful inaccurate moves deliberately gets No Guard as a Hidden Ability?
End of an era if he gets banned… I got to #1 in OU gen 4 with lead machamp a few years back and that set became my favorite competitive set of all time.
Mfw you can ban d punch and champ can use cross chop but rachi is fine rolling 60%s every turn. > if you take away d punch champ becomes unviable > ban machamp instead of d punch removing it entirely from the metagame even with a 1:1 replacement in cross chop. > i love 'simple bans' > My based 60% Para/flinch isn't bad for the format because i use sub CM please ignore every special set running head and/or slam for free safe scald i mean skilled progress making gameplay i have counterplay in a check that can only get permanantly crippled for the entire match for switching in. I get hating d punch, i also hate it but you can't look at 'rng control' and then ignore the jirachi i mean jirachi i mean elephant in the room.
Honestly this is one of the reasons I think Bug types should have always been immune to confusion. It's not something that comes up all that often, but when it does, it helps neuter these annoyig occurrences.
@Legogreens Bugs can't get dizzy because they don't have an inner ear so I think making them immune to confusion would be pretty fitting. Now imagine a Bug/Dragon Mega Flygon spamming outrage as a late game cleaner after you get rid of the fairies. That'd be awesome. (I also happen to be a "bug type should resist and be super effective against Fairy" advocate, not particularly for lore but more for balance).
@@thisrandomdude2880 cool TIL. Yeah another fairy weakness would be great and if you haven't played renegade plat it actually has both fairy's and a flygon with 600 BST and bug dragon type
I'd actually be down for that change considering the sheer number of types Bug stinks against Personally I think every type should have some kind of quirk that makes them unique to try, even while they are unviable
Banning Dynamic Punch is sufficient ... Machamp still gets cross chop and stone edge combo which is not bad with no guard (and scope lens, if you wanna go with that).
I think people being afraid of complex bans are really dumb. Just banning the combination of no guard and dynamic punch would be fine. The combination of serene grace and flinching move Like how gen 5 banned sand and sand rush. Or rain and swift swim
6:20 pretty sure the policy was you can only ban an ability if all pokemon that have that ability have another ability. Its why sand veil wasn't banned until gen 5 dropped and garchomp got a second ability.
I would like to remind everyone that if Machamp isn’t banned, there is a very real possibility Muk Monday’s will become Machamp Mondays, which would be disastrous.
Great tips, especially for such a tricky dungeon! Blackrock Depths is such a maze, and it's easy to forget the little things that can save a Hardcore run. I’d add that having someone keep an eye on patrol paths near the Ring of Law is a lifesaver. Also, love the passion you have for BRD-it really shines through in the video. Keep it up!
I've heard that he might be banned for cultural appropriation. A group of Hindus have complained that this imposter is trying to make himself pass as Lord Shiva, propaging confusion everywhere he goes. It is insane
Banning dynamicpunch would be better imo, that wouldn't have any other repercussions because nothing else uses it. And we could instead use cross chop for the memes
Smogon avoids complex bans where possible, under the philosophy that if you take a pokemon, and take away all its best moves and one of its abilities, are you really playing that pokemon? Or merely a farce of it
@@supremeclamitas5053this is different as OP stated. Your banning 1 move all Pokemon and this one move is uncompetitive on every Pokemon that would use it. It literally makes more sense than a Machamp ban. I'm sure if enough tourney players got cheeses by machoke or some crazy jitachi variant they will consider it and I wouldn't be surprised if after the fact they keep Machamp banned
@@Legogreens If Machamp's the only pokemon using the move, it's effectvely a complex ban. If multiple pokemon used Dynamic Punch, then a move ban would align with Smogon's philosophy. It's like how, in gen 9, last respects as a move was only banned once Basculegion also got access to it
1:39 Arguably confusion is a stronger mechanic than paralysis. Paralysis slows and gives a 25% chance for inaction whereas confusion is a flat 50% chance with potential self damage. Objectively way higher odds of inactivity, allowing for amazing set up opportunities.
My brother used to run this set and to quote Sergeant Jenkins "tough but not invincible" This is what happens when people are too reliant on cores to win the meta. My teams are always based around some gimmick that I just wanted to try The fun for me is experimentation. If it wins it wins. If it doesn't there's an opportunity for improvement. When you realize something you thought was neat doesn't work in unique situations, you have to rely on your impromptu skills to cut your losses I'm not saying all this to relay some feel good message like "it's not whether you win or lose" more importantly the more teams you explore, the more patterns you begin to notice in strategy. You're never going to have the ONLY team that covers all situations. But you _will_ know that running all normal types with only STAB moves is bound for failure Why doesn't that translate here? If you suspect a dynamic punch, all you need is a decent ghost type and you've got an unmissable hypnosis on your hands. Remember dream eater guys?
7:20 Sleep was not banned for being too good specifically (although spore is crazy, not sure if the banned prevent sneasler from applying sleep with dire claw), it was banned for being to rng based (sleep moves have terrible accuracy) which mean most game come down to a 50:50ish coin flip for if sleep lands or not. Same reason swagger got banned as it wa 50:50 that you hit your self in confusing with not counter plays if swagger came off a prankster user. They like to ban mechanics or effects that increase randomness, evasion, moody ect.
I like Machamp, I think the format is better with it in, Dpunch is the problem not Machamp. Replace it with Cross Chop and you have a valid(ish) mon with no coin flip madness.
As a very bad gen 4 OU regular, i think machamp is hands down the most frustrating thing to fight against, even spore loom has some counterplay, this is just annoying and unfun.
what people always underestimate in the complex ban discussion is how hard it is to look up this info reliably, or find out what showdown wants from you when building/validating a team in a new format. There's only so much info an error message about "only one stat per baton pass user", "no weather+speed ability from the same weather on the same team" etc. can convey. It is especially frustrating to jump through all these hoops AFTER you've already built a fun team and put a lot of thought into it, because on the surface you cannot easily know these things are banned (with pokemon banned from formats this is very easy in comparison, I would never try to build a Gen 9 OU team around Palafin, since I can see it is under the "Illegal" tab) Other offenders of this issue are OMs, which become quite frustrating to build for sometimes (which pokémon are allowed in Almost Any Abillity that aren't in OU and vice versa, which moves are banned in STABmons even though I can find farely recent sample teams using them... and so on) Recently I had a moment like this myself, where I built a team for Draft League and found out that Raikou (in some earlier Gen) can only get Weather Ball/Aura Sphere from an Event and it had to be Shiny and Rash, but there's no simple way of telling which move was the issue (since I had both on there), so maybe this is an overall infrastructure issue. But personally I think it goes too far to complain about those things when we use Showdown for free and I'm happy it exists at all.
Machamp dynamic punched me in the face and it made me unsub in confusion. I snapped out of confusion and subscribed back. Please ban him I don't want to get unsubbed again.
It's funny that noguard, which eliminates randomness leads to such a luck-based pokemon Edit: Also I once had a Magneton getting flinched to death by Jirachi iron head
Banning No Guard: complex ban Banning Snow Cloak last year: not a complex ban Banning Jirachi: barely considered, resulted in Machamp suspect instead Gen 4 Council's scientific method is to reach a conclusion to ban or not ban and justify it through any means necessary
I think the main difference between Jirachi and Machamp is that Jirachi's RNG abuse can be made very consistent. Using parafusion Jirachi is less literal 50-50 "Jesus take the wheel" and more "Stone Edge never misses!". You can do just flinch strats, but that's a half measure for Jirachi, you can have an actually reliable strategy a layer below. Machamp's Dynamic Punch is all the measure it has, it's a cheese sandwich except both breads are aslo cheese.
I feel like both machamp and jirahi can be suspected in different time so is nice get atleast 1 banned , something bw ou does is ban swift swim + drizzle which i think is pretty good idk why they cant just ban snow cloak + snow warning
yesterday to try to corroborate that machamp didn't deserve a ban i played 3 hours straight gen 4 OU... i was wrong, machamp is absurd, not even zapdos is good change against him, after losing against 5 machamps in a row i made a team of slowbro own tempo full def. Sorry for doubting jim, this 4 arm demon shouldn't be near us
The other day I had a Milotic who I had just evolved and EV trained, and then within its first battle it was confused and hurt itself 4 times in a row. And then it broke out and was immediately confused again, and again hit itself 4 times in a row. 8 coin flips went tails in a row no?
I also agree on Machamp getting banned. You wanna play Pokémon, not the Dynamic Lottery. Besides, it would have some comedic value of Machamp suddenly being on the same tier as Kyogre. You'd show that to a Gen 1 or future gen player and they'd have a breakdown.
Before the suspect I saw machamp maybe a handful of times but you ALWAYS see iron head jirachi and being forced to have MULTIPLE answers to it is dumb like jirachis face
I'm so for Machamp. Dude sucks literally everywhere. It is refreshing to hear he's actually doing something. It may be dirty fighting but every Machamp has it's move. If Machamp or Dynamic Punch gets banned then they have to ban Iron Head on Jirachi. It's a package deal in my mind
Just use a Pokemon with a 1HKO move and use that when they use Machamp. Edit: Let people counter the Machamp Dynamic Punch build first before banning it. It shakes up the meta healthily.
If machamp gets banned, people will just use machoke instead. Machamp is used along side para so it doesn’t matter if machoke is slower or weaker, you’re using it because you’re hoping for the para confuse hax. I’ve seen teams that use both already and they’re “not bad.” They accomplish what they set out to do which is luck you out. What do we do then? Ban machoke? At that point it’s getting ridiculous. We are doing to reach a similar point to where people were using diglet because it does the same thing dugtrio does. It doesn’t matter that it’s “worse” it still creates the same problem we tried to remove in the first place
I'd say we have a reasonable precedent for banning Dynamic Punch, as well as Zap Cannon. Same reason for the OHKO Clause. Heavily RNG reliant to the point of being uncompetitive. No Guard has reasonable competitive merit, as does Machamp. But in a vacuum, *no one ever clicks Dynamic Punch or Zap Cannon in the interest of winning on the merits of skill.*
Not sure why this isn’t equated to spore at all. 100% accurate move that prevents the opponent from moving. At least in confusion’s case it’s some of the time you don’t move. And unlike sleep confusion is gone on switch. Plus one has a lot less pp than the other. This reads as “my normal meta option is getting beaten by a slightly off meta option, ban it.” I’m also wondering if a no guard zap cannon would also be banned or is it specifically that no one likes confusion despite the ease of curing it.
I think banning Dynamic Punch or No Guard is better because no other mons can take advantage of that, so you Machamp is unbanned and the problem is gone
I am against them being against/forbidding complex bans because sometimes a complex solution is just simply better on the whole than a simple solution that goes farther than is needed for solving a situation/problem and machamp and jirachi (and also froslass) I think fall into this category here and being stubborn or overly traditional/vanilla isn't a good excuse for ignoring that fact in my opinion.
The fact that the council member who began the thread is tourney banned, makes me think this is some type of conspiracy made by Iron Mugilis and Old Money to kill any confidence Machamp has left, in the only meta it is relevant. And yet somehow thet finally corrupted Jim to do their bidding. This is outrageous
Simply banning Dynamic Punch is the obvious choice here. It's a generally terrible move that nobody uses, except to abuse No Guard on this one specific Pokémon. There would be almost no collateral damage, and would leave Machamp intact as a sort of niche option that can spam 100% accurate Cross Chops and Stone Edges.
If snow cloak Froslass is banned due to an ability thats not an issue why don't they simply remove the ability and replace it with something useless like Run Away? It doesn't benefit the pokemon but allows it to still be used
![Felix "Unfair" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Oswujxm2Ag0/mqdefault.jpg)
![I.N "HALLUCINATION" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n5B5q1Hwt_U/mqdefault.jpg)
I'd be down with an outright ban to Dynamic Punch too honestly, thats a simple ban and the move is just lame/uncompetitive. Never sees use besides Machamp anyway
Suspect Thread:
www.smogon.com/forums/threads/dpp-ou-machamp-suspect-test.3756736
jimothycool.com
Horse Council Merch available until end of December.
I agree. No Guard is a cool ability that can enable some interesting strategies. Dynamicpunch is the problem
This is the most reasonnable answer in my opinion.
Sad to see machamp, fraternal twin of the centaur(four arms two legs) which is itself a cousin to horses see this kind of complex family tree infighting. If he is pruned from this tree at least he will confuse everyone on the way down.
Same but dynamic punch isn’t broken on other mons so i guess ban machamp
we tried to initiate a ban of dynamic punch, but the authorities of smogon refused a suspect test of a move, same thing for iron head they'd rather ban rachi
I don’t blame Machamp. Imagine how confusing it would be to get punched in the face by a gentleman with four arms. I’d get confused too.
Of course you'd be confused. It'd be a very... Dynamic Punch.
I'm a gentleman with forearms, but I promise not to punch you in the face.
@@eclipse9727 ba dum tss
Hardest I've laughed this week thanks man
I see the confusion, but do not be misled, Machamp is no gentleman. He is a brute with no respect for tradition societal conventions. All I did was switch in and he is punching me? No “Greetings, how are you on this fine morning?” It’s utterly disrespectful.
Banning the entire pokemon Machamp without confronting Rachi's iron head (which imo honestly cuts the entire format's fun in half) would be absurd. Ban the move dynamic punch and complex ban rachi alongside iron head and the format is instantly way better imo. I was with Jimothy earlier in the year arguing that smogon's banning was in a decent place but there has been a lot of confused logic behind some bans recently that it's hurt the fun for sure
Jirachi would then shift to using Headbutt, forcing people to use ghost types just to be able to play the game. Stuff like this is why modern combos like Rough Skin + Rocky Helmet work
@@Rexir2normal w/I stab is so terrible on base 100 attack that I cannot believe you're serious.
Absolutely preach but sadly archaic law persists
@ Headbutt is half the damage, and an easier type to deal with. The problem isn't that a rachi that can flinch is an auto-win button; if it was it would've been banned over a decade ago. The problem is that it's unfun coin-flipping AND it's very strong. Being forced to switch to headbutt would remove the second half of the problem.
Besides, a complex ban could just remove headbutt from rachi's set as well and absolutely nothing would be lost
Don't even ban Dpunch just ban No Guard idgaf
if machamp gets banned i am running dynamic punch breloom.
and metagross
and tyranitar
you know what, the whole team will be punching. dynamically. and they will not miss.
if dynamic punch has zero fans, know that the notorious anti-machamp activist jimothy cool has successfully assassinated me.
Based and punch pilled
Hey if a whole Machamp punched me I'd get confused too if not blown to smithereens
turn your ass from a normal type to a ghost type real quick. but now that you’re a ghost type you can spin the block and get your revenge
If machamp punched you, you would be dead. Dude can lift ships or something I believe.
When this kind of thing happens decades later, I can only assume some smogon mod got really salty.
That's probably true, honestly.
the community voted on machamp to get suspected, smogon isnt some evil council, they held a survey to see if the playerbase thinks machamp is too much.
@hatyyy they want to play a 1v1 fox only final destination style game, but they are playing pokemon. Ideally they need to ban all statuses, flinching, make every move never miss then we can start playing the Ideal form of pokemon.
@@590488 bro what
Amen, 80-90% of bans are superfluous and simply end up creating the next most annoying thing. Listening to the playerbase too much creates an entitled community, not a balanced game.@@590488
I think the reason why people go "what about Jirachi???" is because to an outsider it seems weird to accuse Machamp of these crimes when Jirachi has been doing the same thing for longer while also having a lot more usage. It's as if the SSBM community said "projectile spamming is broken!!" and then decided to ban Samus first before taking a look at Falco
Nicki detected
Edit: I don't play this format much, but from what I've seen Jirachi is a good deal less problematic than Machamp because Machamp relies on D-Punch in a way Jirachi doesn't for Iron Head.
ah that nair boot samus' got tho, goes crazy
Decemeber 19, 2024
With Machamp’s No Guard ability, the rules of probability didn’t apply to me. Dynamic Punch wasn’t just a gamble-it was a promise.
The second their Pokémon switched in, I felt it: that electric anticipation right before impact. Machamp didn’t hesitate, didn’t falter. Four fists, two ready for business, and one Dynamic Punch locked on like it was destiny itself. There was no room for luck, no coin flip, no “what if.” It hit. It always hits.
The confusion spread like wildfire. Their Pokémon staggered, wild-eyed, unsure of friend or foe. Its attempts to strike back were laughable, flailing uselessly as it smacked itself in the face. I didn’t even tell Machamp to move for a moment. I just let it stand there, stoic, watching the chaos unfold, arms folded in a silent mock
folks
Folks
folks
Well if he'd stop leaving the milk out and paid his rent on time he wouldn't be in this mess.
Exploud shaking in terror at the thought of being sacrificed at the altar for the Smogon Overlords.
If machamp gets banned, I hope they announce it by making a Lavos style copypasta about how unfair it is
With machamp gone the way for honorable jirachi gameplay is finally clear
As annoying as it is, i find jirachi far more annoying in this format
Both are very annoying. Machamp is more clearly carried by 1 Broken thing though
@jimothycool yeah true, at least jirachi cant do much to mons like heatran.
Unfortunate that theres no king in gen 4 that can resist fighting dark and rock
@@jimothycool I feel like it could be easily countered by just running any sleep move since they're guaranteed to hit no matter what if people are worried about it.
@@ashblossomandjoyoussprung.9917 Most common item is Lum on Machamp
a wise ctc once said “whats a horse to a dinosaur.. aerodactl” so would that make the aerodynamic aerodactyl a horse, thus an imposing threat or potential ally to the mighty macgargo’s reign? a serious inquiry, thank you
LMAOOO
"Skill issue, you just use Own Tempo Slowbro and never get confused"
t. Guy Who Has Never Played Gen 4 In His Life
i love those kinds of suggestions lmao. Just use aerial ace against sand veil garchomp!!
me when my own tempo slowbro gets oneshot and sucks at everything else
Exactly even with Scizor no longer being good as it was Slowbro isn't kind of a mon you would want to use as bulky water in this gen.
Tbh I'd just ban the DPP council. Snow Cloak ban is unjustifiable in the grand scheme of the tier and suspect testing Machamp while allowing Jirachi to run around, knowing full well that complex bans would immediately solve the tier's issues, is ridiculously stubborn.
DPP seems like it is being held back by the very people who are supposed to allow it to move forward.
Nah you know whats stubborn constantly calling for complex bans despite the higher ups at smogon (NOT THE GENERATION COUNCIL) stating that complex bans are off the table.
When the rules do not serve you their purpose it's time for a change. Well said
@@mattgibson9337What you said amounts too "You know what the problem is? Asking for due justice when the court already decided your guilty" Why be complacent when things are operating in a manner which is far from optimal ? And no one asked for "constant" complex bans. Snow Cloak + hail setting on same team is the closest thing to a "complex" ban we ever wanted which could simply be counted over evasion Claus, while keeping the sand viel mins banned due to Turanitar and Hippo being far more common than Obamasow. A dynamic punch ban is not complex. It's 1 move which most of you have 0 issue when it was baton pass. What this boils down too is boring uncreative players not seeing value in Machamp outside of cheese and so being fine with throwing the baby out with the bath water. I hope the future handlers of smogon can do better than the current old head and their enablers
@@mattgibson9337smogon leaders are soy boys in general
The thing is jirachi adds a lot of positive stuff to the tier and meta without jirachi is Def worse than meta with rachi. The best solution is iron head jirachi is terrible. Machamp adds nothing to the tier positively and lead metagame would just shift to gallade and Lucario
You know who would never get banned? Yamper, as he is the most fair and loved competitive pokemon of all, and he is a valued representative of the corgi counsel.
The problem is dynamic punch never missing. Not machamp itself. I’ll never understand not doing a “complex ban” in a situation like this because at the end of the day this is just a battle simulator. They have these super specific things though that aren’t allowed, because they are “technically” impossible, for example you can’t use shiny articuno and have the move refresh in gen 3 and raikou isn’t allowed to learn shadow ball unless it is shiny. I can’t remember the thing with greninja either where battle bond can only be a certain gender. But people have coke math and made videos of how it is almost impossible to get these Pokémon legitimately and have the EV trained specifically to battle competitively in an actual Nintendo sponsored event. Just ban dynamic punch and your problem goes away. You can still lead machamp,
2:38 Game Freak allowed the most notable and insightful Pokemon Social Media Influencer; Jimothy Cool to preview gen 11's new Rotom-G form. I, for one, am immensely excited.
Rotom-Ghost has already been out as a great switch in due to its ghost typing, making it a ghost who can't be hit by dynamic punch. The ghost type ghost can ghost the machamp to ghost the non ghosted pokemon, but payback could ghost you back from machamp. So don't always rely on ghost type ghosts like rotom-ghost, as ghosts can also be ghosted themself for super effective damage.
Rotom Guash
@@bradfjord Ghost types ghost fighting types, unless you are a ghost fighting type and ghost fighting types but also can't ghost other ghosts. Ghost types can't ghost fighting types, and fighting types can't ghost ghosts. Everyone is ghosting ghosts, but fighting types can't. That's why rotom-ghost is a good switch in to ghost the dynamic punch from machamp, the fighting type. Machamp can't ghost ghosts. Unless the Machamp runs the move payback, as to show payback for ghosting them, they can ghost ghosts well.
9:10 Start of the Jimothy crashout lol
As someone who plays pretty much only Gen4, I'll be voting for It if I qualify, but it would be so much simpler to just ban Dynamic Punch. It doesn't have to be a "complex" ban - literally just ban the move no matter what pokemon it is ran on. The move is shit and even more luck based when you use it without NG anyway.
Machamp without NG+DP is fine.
Noguard without DP is fine.
Dynamic punch is not fine.
But anyway, 76% of the community wanted it banned and for good fucking reason. I think it is a waste to not just ban the problem move and instead ban the whole mon, but oh well, I'm still going to be voting yes because fuck playing against Machamp.
Yeh dynamic punch and zap cannon easily fullfil the criteria for moves that should have been banned year back. If a move is strong and has low accuracy its uncompetive as it turn the game into rng luck game. It also the reason sleep was banned, it was too luck based and to strong if it landed.
I think the only reason that Dynamic Punch has not been banned is simply because a coin flip for huge damage and confusion is never a thing you want to gamble on, so by being a coin flip nobody would seriously use Dynamic Punch. Furthermore, Dynamic Punch effectively being Machamp’s signature move make people think Machamp is the issue rather than that move. And while the fact that No Punch Dynamic Guard is Machamp’s thing has held true so far, Pokémon has increasingly become competitive. The Paldea region Pokemon alone are generally the top tier Pokemon. Who’s to say in Generation 10 a Pokemon with powerful inaccurate moves deliberately gets No Guard as a Hidden Ability?
End of an era if he gets banned… I got to #1 in OU gen 4 with lead machamp a few years back and that set became my favorite competitive set of all time.
Mfw you can ban d punch and champ can use cross chop but rachi is fine rolling 60%s every turn.
> if you take away d punch champ becomes unviable
> ban machamp instead of d punch removing it entirely from the metagame even with a 1:1 replacement in cross chop.
> i love 'simple bans'
> My based 60% Para/flinch isn't bad for the format because i use sub CM please ignore every special set running head and/or slam for free safe scald i mean skilled progress making gameplay i have counterplay in a check that can only get permanantly crippled for the entire match for switching in.
I get hating d punch, i also hate it but you can't look at 'rng control' and then ignore the jirachi i mean jirachi i mean elephant in the room.
Honestly this is one of the reasons I think Bug types should have always been immune to confusion. It's not something that comes up all that often, but when it does, it helps neuter these annoyig occurrences.
Lore wise wouldn't psychic make more sense ?
@Legogreens Bugs can't get dizzy because they don't have an inner ear so I think making them immune to confusion would be pretty fitting.
Now imagine a Bug/Dragon Mega Flygon spamming outrage as a late game cleaner after you get rid of the fairies. That'd be awesome. (I also happen to be a "bug type should resist and be super effective against Fairy" advocate, not particularly for lore but more for balance).
@@thisrandomdude2880 cool TIL. Yeah another fairy weakness would be great and if you haven't played renegade plat it actually has both fairy's and a flygon with 600 BST and bug dragon type
I'd actually be down for that change considering the sheer number of types Bug stinks against
Personally I think every type should have some kind of quirk that makes them unique to try, even while they are unviable
Just run Sheer Cold/Fissure/Horn Drill to counter it
5Head
Jimothy Cool might be getting banned for being too cool
i like slowbro as a switch in because it resists dynamic punch and is immune to confusion
I sure hope I never get dynamically punched by a buff guy with four whole arms.
Banning Dynamic Punch is sufficient ... Machamp still gets cross chop and stone edge combo which is not bad with no guard (and scope lens, if you wanna go with that).
10:53 HE CONFUSED ALL OF MY RESISTS
[ **laughs in Slowbro** ]
I think people being afraid of complex bans are really dumb. Just banning the combination of no guard and dynamic punch would be fine. The combination of serene grace and flinching move
Like how gen 5 banned sand and sand rush. Or rain and swift swim
Alternative course of action - unban OHKO moves
You make some compelling points, but have you considered the following water-tight argument for keeping Machamp in Gen IV OU:
Wiggly giggily boo
6:20 pretty sure the policy was you can only ban an ability if all pokemon that have that ability have another ability. Its why sand veil wasn't banned until gen 5 dropped and garchomp got a second ability.
since in Gen 4 only the Machamp line has No Guard and it *also* has access to Guts, wouldn't this make a No Guard ban perfectly possible?
I would like to remind everyone that if Machamp isn’t banned, there is a very real possibility Muk Monday’s will become Machamp Mondays, which would be disastrous.
Discombobulate.
-Machamp, probably.
my pastor tells me the gates of Heaven are closed to Machamp, by popular demand.
Great tips, especially for such a tricky dungeon! Blackrock Depths is such a maze, and it's easy to forget the little things that can save a Hardcore run. I’d add that having someone keep an eye on patrol paths near the Ring of Law is a lifesaver. Also, love the passion you have for BRD-it really shines through in the video. Keep it up!
Um, sir, this is a Pokémon video.
Machamp and Jirachi are the most hated pokemon in the DPP format, but the most hated pokemon in the adv format is crit flamethrower Aerodactyl
Jimothy's suave smooth tones will help me get through day.
I've heard that he might be banned for cultural appropriation. A group of Hindus have complained that this imposter is trying to make himself pass as Lord Shiva, propaging confusion everywhere he goes. It is insane
Just after he was beaten by the Nahobino too. A deity can't have anything these days smh
@@thatsabruhmoment17 more reasons to ban machamp tbh
Mtg leaking into Pokémon lore, no way!
@@SamanthaC641what is bro yapping about💀
Banning dynamicpunch would be better imo, that wouldn't have any other repercussions because nothing else uses it. And we could instead use cross chop for the memes
Smogon avoids complex bans where possible, under the philosophy that if you take a pokemon, and take away all its best moves and one of its abilities, are you really playing that pokemon? Or merely a farce of it
@@supremeclamitas5053this is different as OP stated. Your banning 1 move all Pokemon and this one move is uncompetitive on every Pokemon that would use it. It literally makes more sense than a Machamp ban. I'm sure if enough tourney players got cheeses by machoke or some crazy jitachi variant they will consider it and I wouldn't be surprised if after the fact they keep Machamp banned
@@Legogreens If Machamp's the only pokemon using the move, it's effectvely a complex ban. If multiple pokemon used Dynamic Punch, then a move ban would align with Smogon's philosophy.
It's like how, in gen 9, last respects as a move was only banned once Basculegion also got access to it
Clearly the solution is to run Own Tempo Spinda.
Turn their Machamp strategy upside down.
This video became more unhinged as it went on 😂
Machamp Monday is the Evil Cousin of Muk Monday. What next, Mugulis Monday? This is Insane, folks.
Lol Machamp turning the tables and instead of him tossing a coin w dymamicpunch it forces YOU to toss a coin for confusion. Chat move
4 arms ? Gentlemans , this is a horse
1:39 Arguably confusion is a stronger mechanic than paralysis. Paralysis slows and gives a 25% chance for inaction whereas confusion is a flat 50% chance with potential self damage. Objectively way higher odds of inactivity, allowing for amazing set up opportunities.
My brother used to run this set and to quote Sergeant Jenkins "tough but not invincible"
This is what happens when people are too reliant on cores to win the meta. My teams are always based around some gimmick that I just wanted to try
The fun for me is experimentation. If it wins it wins. If it doesn't there's an opportunity for improvement. When you realize something you thought was neat doesn't work in unique situations, you have to rely on your impromptu skills to cut your losses
I'm not saying all this to relay some feel good message like "it's not whether you win or lose" more importantly the more teams you explore, the more patterns you begin to notice in strategy. You're never going to have the ONLY team that covers all situations. But you _will_ know that running all normal types with only STAB moves is bound for failure
Why doesn't that translate here? If you suspect a dynamic punch, all you need is a decent ghost type and you've got an unmissable hypnosis on your hands. Remember dream eater guys?
Jimothy just wants to play pocket monsters
I like machamp visually, they say four arms is better than two, but I understand how it can make the game not nice for everyone
But what about the ghouls, Jim
7:20 Sleep was not banned for being too good specifically (although spore is crazy, not sure if the banned prevent sneasler from applying sleep with dire claw), it was banned for being to rng based (sleep moves have terrible accuracy) which mean most game come down to a 50:50ish coin flip for if sleep lands or not. Same reason swagger got banned as it wa 50:50 that you hit your self in confusing with not counter plays if swagger came off a prankster user.
They like to ban mechanics or effects that increase randomness, evasion, moody ect.
I like Machamp, I think the format is better with it in, Dpunch is the problem not Machamp. Replace it with Cross Chop and you have a valid(ish) mon with no coin flip madness.
2:36 Rotom-Ghost is my favourite kitchen appliance
If they ban machamp then I shall make sure every fighting type I use has Dynamic punch out of spite, I dont even care if it misses >:)
Gonna get voting requirements just to vote to keep the guy so we can see Jimothy enter his villain arc
I'm a proud owner of a horse council hoodie. I hope this propels us forward in horse society.
Machamp is an absolute criminal but how will I win ladder games if it's banned?
Simple: Just run Own Tempo Slowbro (I am joking)
As a very bad gen 4 OU regular, i think machamp is hands down the most frustrating thing to fight against, even spore loom has some counterplay, this is just annoying and unfun.
what people always underestimate in the complex ban discussion is how hard it is to look up this info reliably, or find out what showdown wants from you when building/validating a team in a new format. There's only so much info an error message about "only one stat per baton pass user", "no weather+speed ability from the same weather on the same team" etc. can convey.
It is especially frustrating to jump through all these hoops AFTER you've already built a fun team and put a lot of thought into it, because on the surface you cannot easily know these things are banned (with pokemon banned from formats this is very easy in comparison, I would never try to build a Gen 9 OU team around Palafin, since I can see it is under the "Illegal" tab)
Other offenders of this issue are OMs, which become quite frustrating to build for sometimes (which pokémon are allowed in Almost Any Abillity that aren't in OU and vice versa, which moves are banned in STABmons even though I can find farely recent sample teams using them... and so on)
Recently I had a moment like this myself, where I built a team for Draft League and found out that Raikou (in some earlier Gen) can only get Weather Ball/Aura Sphere from an Event and it had to be Shiny and Rash, but there's no simple way of telling which move was the issue (since I had both on there), so maybe this is an overall infrastructure issue. But personally I think it goes too far to complain about those things when we use Showdown for free and I'm happy it exists at all.
I thought confusion had 30% chance of hitting yourself.
If we are talking about RNG. Cloyster with skill link and king's rock while using Icicle spear is the best one that I could think of.
The solution is just to unban OK moves and, run one to counter machamp
As a machamp abuser in dp ou, I feel offended. Rightly so
STOP CHANGING OLD FORMATS. WHAT THE DAMN POINT OF OLD FORMATS JESUS CHRIST
Kinda funny that an ability that should lower variance ends up increasing it.
If Machamp isn't banned I'll be confused irl
Machamp dynamic punched me in the face and it made me unsub in confusion. I snapped out of confusion and subscribed back. Please ban him I don't want to get unsubbed again.
Legit question, why is Machamp only considered a menace in Gen 4, when they can do this in any gen after 4 aswell?
Better fighting types added after gen 4.
@ I feel so cheated for an answer, but that makes sense
@@Nick-yl4qpYeah gen 5 immediately adds Conkeldurr and Mienshao, and there's really not that much room for pure fighting types
It's funny that noguard, which eliminates randomness leads to such a luck-based pokemon
Edit: Also I once had a Magneton getting flinched to death by Jirachi iron head
Banning No Guard: complex ban
Banning Snow Cloak last year: not a complex ban
Banning Jirachi: barely considered, resulted in Machamp suspect instead
Gen 4 Council's scientific method is to reach a conclusion to ban or not ban and justify it through any means necessary
I think the main difference between Jirachi and Machamp is that Jirachi's RNG abuse can be made very consistent. Using parafusion Jirachi is less literal 50-50 "Jesus take the wheel" and more "Stone Edge never misses!". You can do just flinch strats, but that's a half measure for Jirachi, you can have an actually reliable strategy a layer below. Machamp's Dynamic Punch is all the measure it has, it's a cheese sandwich except both breads are aslo cheese.
I feel like both machamp and jirahi can be suspected in different time so is nice get atleast 1 banned , something bw ou does is ban swift swim + drizzle which i think is pretty good idk why they cant just ban snow cloak + snow warning
Breaking news:
Johnny four arms banned for aim hacks
Machamp and Jirachi’less Dpp OU would be a dream come true
yesterday to try to corroborate that machamp didn't deserve a ban i played 3 hours straight gen 4 OU... i was wrong, machamp is absurd, not even zapdos is good change against him, after losing against 5 machamps in a row i made a team of slowbro own tempo full def. Sorry for doubting jim, this 4 arm demon shouldn't be near us
The other day I had a Milotic who I had just evolved and EV trained, and then within its first battle it was confused and hurt itself 4 times in a row. And then it broke out and was immediately confused again, and again hit itself 4 times in a row. 8 coin flips went tails in a row no?
Instead of banning Machamp, No Guard and Dynamic Punch combination should be banned.
I also agree on Machamp getting banned. You wanna play Pokémon, not the Dynamic Lottery.
Besides, it would have some comedic value of Machamp suddenly being on the same tier as Kyogre. You'd show that to a Gen 1 or future gen player and they'd have a breakdown.
Own Tempo Slowbro is pretty good against Machamp, I've been testing it out on this suspect ladder since everybody is playing it
The fact that better options exist but gen iv ou players cant have fun options because the mods are idiots is so ridiculous.
Before the suspect I saw machamp maybe a handful of times but you ALWAYS see iron head jirachi and being forced to have MULTIPLE answers to it is dumb like jirachis face
I'm so for Machamp. Dude sucks literally everywhere. It is refreshing to hear he's actually doing something. It may be dirty fighting but every Machamp has it's move.
If Machamp or Dynamic Punch gets banned then they have to ban Iron Head on Jirachi. It's a package deal in my mind
Just use a Pokemon with a 1HKO move and use that when they use Machamp.
Edit: Let people counter the Machamp Dynamic Punch build first before banning it. It shakes up the meta healthily.
If machamp gets banned, people will just use machoke instead. Machamp is used along side para so it doesn’t matter if machoke is slower or weaker, you’re using it because you’re hoping for the para confuse hax.
I’ve seen teams that use both already and they’re “not bad.” They accomplish what they set out to do which is luck you out. What do we do then? Ban machoke? At that point it’s getting ridiculous. We are doing to reach a similar point to where people were using diglet because it does the same thing dugtrio does. It doesn’t matter that it’s “worse” it still creates the same problem we tried to remove in the first place
My boi! He did it!
I'd say we have a reasonable precedent for banning Dynamic Punch, as well as Zap Cannon. Same reason for the OHKO Clause. Heavily RNG reliant to the point of being uncompetitive. No Guard has reasonable competitive merit, as does Machamp. But in a vacuum, *no one ever clicks Dynamic Punch or Zap Cannon in the interest of winning on the merits of skill.*
Not sure why this isn’t equated to spore at all. 100% accurate move that prevents the opponent from moving. At least in confusion’s case it’s some of the time you don’t move. And unlike sleep confusion is gone on switch. Plus one has a lot less pp than the other.
This reads as “my normal meta option is getting beaten by a slightly off meta option, ban it.” I’m also wondering if a no guard zap cannon would also be banned or is it specifically that no one likes confusion despite the ease of curing it.
Let Machamp have this. His debut gen was an absolute joke, let him shine for once.
The only winning move is to not play DPP.
I think banning Dynamic Punch or No Guard is better because no other mons can take advantage of that, so you Machamp is unbanned and the problem is gone
I am against them being against/forbidding complex bans because sometimes a complex solution is just simply better on the whole than a simple solution that goes farther than is needed for solving a situation/problem and machamp and jirachi (and also froslass) I think fall into this category here and being stubborn or overly traditional/vanilla isn't a good excuse for ignoring that fact in my opinion.
The fact that the council member who began the thread is tourney banned, makes me think this is some type of conspiracy made by Iron Mugilis and Old Money to kill any confidence Machamp has left, in the only meta it is relevant.
And yet somehow thet finally corrupted Jim to do their bidding.
This is outrageous
Simply banning Dynamic Punch is the obvious choice here. It's a generally terrible move that nobody uses, except to abuse No Guard on this one specific Pokémon. There would be almost no collateral damage, and would leave Machamp intact as a sort of niche option that can spam 100% accurate Cross Chops and Stone Edges.
Machamp is still useful in Nat dex OU. With no Guard build, assault vest, Retaliate with normal tera stall, but when terra is ban, Knock off better
Ban Dynamic Punch and the Mon remains. It's as simple as that, or as complicated as bad faith arguments want to make it
They rarely do 'complex bans' in past gens its dumb they should just ban dynamic punch but the why the system is just like that sometimes
Ok, here me out... At least it's not No Guard, Choice Scraf and Fisssure Machamp
If snow cloak Froslass is banned due to an ability thats not an issue why don't they simply remove the ability and replace it with something useless like Run Away? It doesn't benefit the pokemon but allows it to still be used