3:28 That sign is amazing. SERVICETON has misaligned ON and the kerning gets gradually tighter as they realised they were running out of space, they've used 1s in RA1LWAY STAT1ON (and an upside down N), both Ss are upside down... Real pro job :D
I'm here from the dailymail. They did an article on this and included a few minutes of your video. I wanted to see the full thing but all my youtube searches on borders and Vic/SA ended up with covid related results; went back to the article and they mention your name so that's how I finally found it :D
Dailymail get Facebook money (which is bullshit). You should get daily mail money. Only fair. Unfortunately it will never happen with a liberal government in the pocket of Murdoch and his mates.
Really interesting! Working and studying as a surveyor in Vic I always love to hear about the stories of what the old boys had to do before they had the stuff we have now! Just one little thing though, you mentioned that the trees were burnt either side of the border to mark it but I think you may have read ‘blazed trees’ and mistook it for burnt, blazing a tree is actually referring to an upside down shield shape cut into a tree with an axe, I think every surveyor makes the same mistake when they first learn about blazing trees though so don’t feel bad!
I remember when Serviceton was an active VR station in the ‘80s. It had a Railway Refreshment Room which was the only place that served beer. locomotives were changed on through trains. The purpose of the station faded when locomotives of either state can run all the way. Twice I would catch the 4:56PM train to Dimboola, wait at Dimboola for The Overland which took me to Serviceton at something like 3:30AM and I’d ride a Melbourne bound container train in the van, usually pulled by a C class. I would detrain at Horsham and await the Horsham pass which left Horsham at something like 2:30PM. If I couldn’t board a freight train in the morning my backup plan was to board the Serviceton to Horsham bus but I never had to do this. In those days passengers could travel on goods trains if they paid the economy fare and signed the indemnity form TR88.
@@boliu83 It was, I’d ride in the guard’s van, in Queensland they had mixed trains which was a goods train with a passenger carriage attached. Mixeds were very common before the ‘70s. QR ran them up to 2004. Victoria and NSW got rid of guards vans around 1989. Around 1981 I rode a bunch of wheat trains in the Mallee to places like Kulwin, Robinvale and Meringur. Now those lines are closed mainly due to neglect, privatization and cost cutting.
Borders in navigable rivers sometimes are based on the legal concept of thalweg, which is line of deepest water or fastest current, not necessarily the midline between the riverbanks. This could give the lawyers even more opportunity for point splitting and fee amassing on the Murray.
As the USA was ending the war with Britain, Maryland and Virginia proposed a meeting to discuss rights on the river between them. It was recognized that the meeting and agreements might have broader implications for the young nation, and so more states gathered to discuss these issues. So what initially was about one stretch of a river evolved into a meeting where, among other things, a constitution was written and the relationship between a national government and state governments was debated and established. See what you can accomplish if you don't have a bunch of bureaucrats who inherited their positions dictating? The United States got a Constitution. Australia got a state line drawn in the wrong place. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Vernon_Conference
@@JamesLamb A constitution that trumps states’ right over democratic rights and weird state boundaries like Florida’s. Though the USA at least sensibly applies the British law principle of thalweg to the Mississippi. But responding to your question with another question; what makes you think (a nonexistent) inherited bureaucracy had anything to do with a surveying error?
I'm happy for RUclips recommend to finally recommend an Australian you tube channel I'm finding interesting. It's comforting hearing the accent and seeing the history and effort involved, keep up the great work!
Clearly the river belongs to SA, because Victoria never made any claim to the river, assuming it was NSW, but SA did claim the river. And while they lost the argument about the land on the other side, they can't have lost what Victoria never claimed.
I used to live in Mildura on the Vic/NSW border. 1982. Yes, the Vic cops DID stop at the bridge right at Victorian (southern) bank and was well known by locals of both sides. Apparently there was little to no communication between respective constabularies and was joked about and indeed revered by local coppers as a means to avoid lengthy paperwork (pre-computer).
I also lived near Mildura. On the NSW side. The NSW border is at pool level of the river Murray on the Victorian side. The pool level being the normal level. When the river floods the border stays the same but now Victoria owns part of the river so they are responsible for.... Are you following all this? Well, I wonder what happens in this odd place?
@@JulianOShea There was literally a Canadian crime comedy about it, Bon Cop Bad Cop, where a body was found on the Welcome to Ontario/Bienvenue a Quebec sign and the only thing the Quebec and Ontario cops agreed on is they didn't want the Feds to take over.
There was a joke on a comedy show where a body was across the NSW/VIC border at the Murray and the NSW and VIC cops couldn't decide who had jurisdiction on the case (neither wanted to do the paperwork) so threw the body in the water to make it SA's problem.
Great work! I didn’t know about this intriguing part of Australian history. Perhaps you could do a video on the topic of the road from Sydney to Canberra, where it passes through the NSW/ACT border about seven times seven kilometres. “You are now entering the ACT... You are now entering NSW”, repeated many times, as the almost straight road crosses a messy border line.
I was kid in the Riverland of SA (very close to that weird bit of river border) the locals wanted a South Australian fishing license because if you wanted to move around you could find yourself needing permits from different states!
My dad always said country wide car rego and fishing stuff etc would make way more sense, but because you get paid multiple times the governments aren't gonna change anything.
you would need two actually, there is no fishing license in SA although i wouldn't be against it (as long as the money goes to the fishery and fisheries)
Loving these vids Julian! Awesome to see some Aussie historical vids.... we've got such an amazing history full of such tough characters who did amazing things, there really needs to be more exposure about them. I reckon the story of Matthew Flinders is worth telling, too.
High Julian. I just recently discovered the channel and love it. Pardon me if I raise issues you have already traversed. Have you looked at the SA/VIC border anomaly on the Glenelg River just North of Nelson in Victoria? There is this tiny sliver of land on a bend of the east bank of the river that is technically in SA. VicPol, Vic Fisheries and the local council have no authority in this space, and yet the SA authorities have to travel into VIC to get there. This has led to al sorts of ambiguity and unauthorized fishing shack development . The space seems to have a local name of Donovan's. Worth a visit if for no other reason than the nearby princes Margret Rose Caves.
Thanks so much for sharing, Mark. As you can see I love these anomalies. Haven’t heard of this one - but next time I’m in the area - I’ll check it out. Very cool
@@JulianOShea if you look up donovans landing on google maps you will see the green area (national preserve) is the anomaly, the problem is to get there you either have to cross by boat or cross through vic as there are no bridges.
I bloody love your unique topics and channel. I love learning about history and stuff but it's so great learning stuff I would never have known about my own backyard (Melbourne)
Next you can travel to Boundary Islet in Bass Strait to explore how another charting error created a very short land border between Victoria and Tasmania. The shortest border between two Australian states. But I am sure the seagulls probably don't care.
@@gortnewton4765 My apologies. I did not intend to denigrate seagulls by implying they were in general uncaring. I was suggesting that they would probably hold a disdain for such arbitrary demarcations drawn across their domain by mere humans.
Back in the 70s there was a comedy-history program on the ABC called 'Australia A to Z' that talked about this. They did a sketch where the SA-Vic border runs through a house, right down the middle of the bedroom - husband's side of bed is in one state, and wife's is in the other, with border guards on both sides.
I never knew this so appreciate the video! One thing though, serviceton was never a break of gauge station as you suggest at 2:55. The melbourne-Adelaide line was built as 5’3” gauge in the late 19th century then converted to standard gauge 4’8.5” a century later, but the station was only really needed to change crews, not gauge.
Politicians in the 1980s deluded themselves that there was a break of guage and spent multi millions to fix a non existent problem. The Minister became a laughing stock on opening day when his speech said no longer would passengers need to change trains.
We made a stop at Serviceton on our way back from Adelaide to Melbourne because of this video. What an interesting experience! Even my 70+ inlaws who are born and raised Melbournians had no idea about this town.
I love this channel so much! I'm a Queenslander and yet i know shit about my own country. I'm a huge history nerd and you've taught me some interesting things about Aussie history so thanks man!
Awesome! Would love to see a true-to-life outline map of SA with that little dongle bit included. It'll mess with my OCD of wanting to see a straight line though
So interesting! Another fun australian border mistake related fact I recently learned is there is a very small (85m) land border between Tasmania and Victoria as a mistake setting the maritime borders resulted in that border running through Boundary Islet
Several points along the river where Victoria actually drifts north into NSW retail bend in the hattah national park is a good example. When the river was surveyed it was during a flood so the "river" mapped was actually a creek
I just came across your channel. You have a really good channel mate, with interesting facts and history, and entertaining at the same time. Looking forward to seeing more from you. Im in Melbourne
I'm reminded that people care about anything in australia besides that bottom right corner, somehow it slipped my mind that there would still be enough people living out in the boonies who'd warrant governance
This is so interesting I always wondered why that border was so weird but the story is even more interesting than I thought. Thank you for exploring Australian history and culture!! Maybe you could make a video on why Canberra is the capital city and the disputes between Sydney and Melbourne over deciding it?
@@JulianOShea Sweet...that'd be alright. The town used to be a thriving railway town until the railways shut the station and allowed straight through running without changing locomotives. Now it's just a ghost town. :( The sound of the locomotives idling in the yard used to be my bedtime lullaby.
As an avid map reader from childhood I always wondered why the SA Victoria border wasn't straight. Thanks for the information. On a side note, I spoke to my cousin recently and he was telling me that the NSW Victoria border was supposed to have been on the Murrumbidgee River instead of the Murray River which would have the border approximately half way between Sydney and Melbourne. Apparently this was due to a clerical error. Have you heard this as well?
Yes I have heard that. Maybe a mistake was made in the Colonial Office in London, or NSW pulled a shifty and not wanting to lose good grazing country between Wagga and the Murray.
Ah, Australia. We have some of the oddest arguments amongst ourselves. Like Sydney and Melbourne fighting so much that we built an entire town and territory to solve the argument.
Nah Melbourne won that one. Sydney didn't get a thing they were after as Melbourne was the capital till Canberra was established and Canberra is technically not in NSW.
Nice video - years ago while living in Bright in the North East part of Victoria we headed to Albury but had a problem with my car. It stopped on the middle of Lincoln Causway and due to living in Victoria I called RACV but they told me that they couldn't help as I was on the bridge and told me to contact NRMA who support people on the roads in New South Wales. I then called them but they said, "Sorry can't help ya" you need to contact the RACV....like WTF!!!!! Finally after about an hour, the cops turned up (From NSW, and towed my car off the bridge back into Victoria), then I called RACV, again who said - "No worries we can help you, be there soon..." ay ya yi!!!!!
Just looked on Google earth and the grey area as you called it has a border drawn right through the middle of the river, half on victoria half on south australia, and yes as you said the border changes to the victorian bank as soon as its past this area.
Well done one your summary and analysis. Sir Charles' Todd is my great great grandfather. His best known work in surveying was his participation in setting the boundary line between SA & NSW that resulted in a call for a change in the existing boundary between SA and Victoria. In 1864 Todd had suspected the accuracy of the fixing of the 141 meridian boundary between South Australia and New South Wales on completion of the Sydney line in 1866. In 1867 Surveyor-General Goyder approached Todd to assist with the fixing of Longitude that defined the SA & VIC / NSW border and in 1870 Todd mark out the SA & WA border. In 1868 Todd worked with the Sydney and Melbourne observatories to establish an accurate time signal through the interstate telegraph line. In conjunction with his astronomy knowledge and surveying skills, he was able to correctly plot the State borders. The solution agreed to by all was that the 141 meridian was two and a third miles (3.7 km) to the east of the original boundary. The "Disputed Territory" comprised 1,295 km² of land which technically Victoria had no right to lease or sell. In 1911, SA sued Victoria in the High Court - a case that was dismissed. As you quite rightly noted, the subsequent appeal in 1914 to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council ruled in favour of Victoria. cheers
My brother used to live in Tweed Heads NSW, just on the border in fact, the end of his street was in Coolangatta Queensland. and the Airport is even worse, it's divided between NSW and Queensland.
It's also interesting that today as I speak, (17th August, 2021), Premier Annastacia Palaszczuk says she will write to her NSW counterpart asking her to temporarily move the Queensland-NSW border south to the Tweed River. A Queensland proposal to potentially make life easier for border residents during covod Lockdown, once the interstate boundaries were closed by COVID-19, was rejected by New South Wales officials four months ago.
You know, New Zealand has no state parliaments, just one Federal Parliament. And in 1922, Queensland passed legislation to abolish the Upper House was and it became the only unicameral state parliament in Australia. I reckon we should abolish the States.
Awesome video! Very informative and well presented. Although born in ACT, I call myself a Victorian as I've spent most of my life here, but lived in Whyalla SA for 7 years. At the end of the day, we are all Australians, and that's what matters. I have subscribed and look forward to enjoying more of your content. And if you ever need a hand, would love to collaborate - after locldown of course.
This is great. Heres hoping you put even more facts into your future videos. Very entertaining and educationaly. If you were slightly more enthusiastic, you would be the Tom Scott of Australia
As an Australian I find it interesting that within the next couple hundred years, Australian states & territories will likely change a whole lot, either new states will show up, some states will become their own countries, or even more cities will show up around the place. I'm south Australian and I feel like we get kicked under the rug a lot since we are kinda in the middle, not a big city but nothing small at all.
I don’t believe it! A South Australian with no opinion about a dispute with Victoria?!? Nest you’ll make a video telling us all how Victoria didn’t steal our Grand Prix. Good work Julian, I only recently discovered your channel, and really enjoy it.
I actually think we both should team up and fight NSW over the damned water as its the tributaries there that get syphoned off to grow cotton for overseas, Victoria is just fortunate they get more rain than us.
The discrepancy started exactly where Wade and White started their journey West...their starting point heading north was a great deal more accurate to 141 E, had their inital starting point been true.
Latitude and direction are functions of geometry and even in those days could be fairly accurately measured. Longitude is a function of geometry + time and you will see it sometimes measured in hours and minutes rather than degrees. (I learned this at Uni in my Surveying course). In the times before satellites, there were short wave radio signals to provide the time. Before that, they had to carry a time piece. It looks like their clock wasn't calibrated correctly.
@@davidmc105 Actually, the co-ordinates of where they thought they were when they started was based on an old (for the time) calculation based on astronomy. That was the trouble, their own calculations were fairly correct as you said.
I spent some cold nights in winter (clear nights are always the coldest) measuring longitude from the stars. Finding your position relative the stars is half the equation. The other factor is the earth's rotation which is a direct function of time hence the need for a clock. Any error in your clock is directly transmitted to your answer for longitude which is your offset from the Prime Meridian through Greenwich. It could also be that they had the wrong right ascension of the stars they used.
@@davidmc105 To be precise, it was based on the calculations made of the fixed point of the Sydney Observatory between 1770 and 1822. 'The Disputed Country - Australia's Lost Border' by Bob Dunn, p.23, shows how the known co-ordinate of said fixed point changed over time, so by the time (actually) Charles Tyers went west to 141E, the difference found later was as a result. Wade and White then took over from where Tyers declared 141E and headed north...
Thanks for the interesting video. Back in 1992, as part of my OH&S role in Australian National Rail, I put forward a plan for a DISCEX - Discussion Exercise - based at Serviceton. A DiscEx is a way to test the Disaster Preparedness of the stakeholders, in this case the Rail Authority, Police and Emergency Services from both sides of the Border. I postulated that a grain truck got stuck on a farm road just near the Serviceton Station and the Overland Express crashed into it. Thus the Emergency Response would be from both States. I got to do a trip to Benalla (I think it was) with my Bosses from AN Passenger & Travel to go over the territory and to meet with the Disaster Team that would be running the Exercise. I didn't get to be part of it but from all reports back it was a valuable exercise to make sure each stakeholder could show their understanding of their roles and preparedness to act if something like that did happen. One thing I did find out was was that the Police on both sides of the Border regularly meet with their counterparts and have authority to cross the border and make arrests if needed.
A bit late to the recommended party but can you do a short video about the “Boundary Islet”? It’s basically a survey error where an island is split apart by Victoria and Tasmania, which technically means Tasmania shares a land border with another state!
i was born in Vic, but my parents moved back to their origin South Aus when I was two weeks old. Some South aussies are real dicks about it and call me Victorian. X'D I had no idea the border did this!! I'd love to visit once the borders are open again. So fascinating. Anyway, I wonder if this is the beginning of South Australia's feud with VIctoria.
Its not just the border its the Formula One which Victoria took off South Australia in back alley deals.The race everybody loved in Adelaide the attendance has never matched 1995 Adelaide GP in Melbourne up until today. There is a famous quote from one of the Beatles George Harrison when he was asked about the Melbourne Gp while attending it he said Adelaide was better. Also most states are not fans of Victoria lol its just how it is.
I am from the Netherlands and here in Europe we are used to weird borders. I like your story on this one, it made me laugh. I travelled Australia quite extensively on motorbike and love the little remote villages. Your video reminds me of the lovely conversation I had with the local people.
Hi Julian, great video! Small factorial there's a part of the Murray than falls under Victorian jurisdiction, namely the Murray that flows south of Beveridge Island, near Tyntynder.
As someone who lives in Albury and worked in Wodonga during the border lockdowns, can say it was a nightmare! Branching from another comment - how Canberra became the ACT and how Albury was a contender and the part they played in the signing. Also the friendship Albury have with the Dutch via the ‘Uiver’. Think they could be interesting.
If you're interested in surveying errors, check Johannesburg - Lilian Ngoyi St, previously Van Der Walt St, previously.... Apparently the surveyors from north and south had inaccuracies and the cross roads on this one road deviate significantly.
3:28 That sign is amazing. SERVICETON has misaligned ON and the kerning gets gradually tighter as they realised they were running out of space, they've used 1s in RA1LWAY STAT1ON (and an upside down N), both Ss are upside down... Real pro job :D
HAHA this is genuinely comedic
Yeah.
Great catch!
Isn't it typically Australian? Don't give a fuck about anything?
That sign is not an original VR sign.
Almost tempted to go commit some petty crimes on the Murray and find out
For science.
Being out there, I am guessing you are going to have to wait a while for someone to show up and arrest you.
Now it is in my tour list.
@@jxmai7687 that's if a local don't shoot at ya first. LOL!
You could try fishing with a Victorian fishing license?
I only just discovered this channel and I'm loving it. It's great to see some Aussie culture and history explored.
Thanks, Kasey! Appreciate it.
Same. The Montague St bridge came up on my recommended. Now I’m off down the rabbit hole. PS SA represent 😁😂😉
Same
Great to see you recognising Aussie culture exists.
It’s a bit Melbourne centric.
The fun part is "If you get arrested on the river, let me know which police arrested you" :D
NSW owns the Murray river in between NSW and VIC
Ill be sure to let you know
@@sethlangman2900 Did you watch the video?
@@meateaw i dont think so. or he didnt comprehend that part.
269th like :)
High courts be damned - the law is an ass. Game of footy should decide it. Best out of three.
Rock, paper, scissors
Most sensible comment I read here yet!
@@JulianOShea nah, it's between Victoria and South Australia. Gotta be a game of footy.
Bordertown vs Kaniva-Leeor
The NSW Vic footy border runs through Wagga and Deniliquin. A long way from the political border.
I'm here from the dailymail. They did an article on this and included a few minutes of your video. I wanted to see the full thing but all my youtube searches on borders and Vic/SA ended up with covid related results; went back to the article and they mention your name so that's how I finally found it :D
Glad you found it. :)
The dailymail pricks should have linked it.
Dailymail get Facebook money (which is bullshit). You should get daily mail money. Only fair. Unfortunately it will never happen with a liberal government in the pocket of Murdoch and his mates.
@@ipxzor very true
@MichaelKingsfordGray ?
Really interesting! Working and studying as a surveyor in Vic I always love to hear about the stories of what the old boys had to do before they had the stuff we have now!
Just one little thing though, you mentioned that the trees were burnt either side of the border to mark it but I think you may have read ‘blazed trees’ and mistook it for burnt, blazing a tree is actually referring to an upside down shield shape cut into a tree with an axe, I think every surveyor makes the same mistake when they first learn about blazing trees though so don’t feel bad!
You need to look up the story how the Queensland - NSW border came about. That is quite an interesting story and I'm sure you will like it.
I guess that's where the term trailblazing comes from?
@@MikeDS49 well there ya go... that makes sense.
And this is how history gets distorted.... time plus little errors...🤣😂😁😀😎
A lot of this information is incorrect as Charles James Tyers was actually in charge of the expedition before this date.
I remember when Serviceton was an active VR station in the ‘80s. It had a Railway Refreshment Room which was the only place that served beer. locomotives were changed on through trains. The purpose of the station faded when locomotives of either state can run all the way.
Twice I would catch the 4:56PM train to Dimboola, wait at Dimboola for The Overland which took me to Serviceton at something like 3:30AM and I’d ride a Melbourne bound container train in the van, usually pulled by a C class. I would detrain at Horsham and await the Horsham pass which left Horsham at something like 2:30PM.
If I couldn’t board a freight train in the morning my backup plan was to board the Serviceton to Horsham bus but I never had to do this.
In those days passengers could travel on goods trains if they paid the economy fare and signed the indemnity form TR88.
4:56 PM seems like an oddly specific number
@@autismman102 Left from plat 1 Spencer St.
must be fun to travel on a goods train
@@boliu83 It was, I’d ride in the guard’s van, in Queensland they had mixed trains which was a goods train with a passenger carriage attached. Mixeds were very common before the ‘70s. QR ran them up to 2004. Victoria and NSW got rid of guards vans around 1989. Around 1981 I rode a bunch of wheat trains in the Mallee to places like Kulwin, Robinvale and Meringur. Now those lines are closed mainly due to neglect, privatization and cost cutting.
J
Borders in navigable rivers sometimes are based on the legal concept of thalweg, which is line of deepest water or fastest current, not necessarily the midline between the riverbanks. This could give the lawyers even more opportunity for point splitting and fee amassing on the Murray.
And then upriver they can alter the course of the river to increase their claim.
Don't encourage them.
As the USA was ending the war with Britain, Maryland and Virginia proposed a meeting to discuss rights on the river between them. It was recognized that the meeting and agreements might have broader implications for the young nation, and so more states gathered to discuss these issues. So what initially was about one stretch of a river evolved into a meeting where, among other things, a constitution was written and the relationship between a national government and state governments was debated and established. See what you can accomplish if you don't have a bunch of bureaucrats who inherited their positions dictating? The United States got a Constitution. Australia got a state line drawn in the wrong place.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Vernon_Conference
@@JamesLamb
A constitution that trumps states’ right over democratic rights and weird state boundaries like Florida’s. Though the USA at least sensibly applies the British law principle of thalweg to the Mississippi.
But responding to your question with another question; what makes you think (a nonexistent) inherited bureaucracy had anything to do with a surveying error?
Never heard of ' thalweg' used in English before but its German root words mean 'valley' and 'way',.
I'm happy for RUclips recommend to finally recommend an Australian you tube channel I'm finding interesting. It's comforting hearing the accent and seeing the history and effort involved, keep up the great work!
Thanks mate!
Clearly the river belongs to SA, because Victoria never made any claim to the river, assuming it was NSW, but SA did claim the river. And while they lost the argument about the land on the other side, they can't have lost what Victoria never claimed.
No! Victorians will be Victorious
@@shaneeaston4027 Victoria will never have any of the greatest river in Aus. NSW and SA are the rulers of the might Murry River
@@MossyTomb Victoria let NSW and SA use the Murray river and we will take it back when we want to. We will dominate all other States as is our right.
You might want to look at Dartmouth dam. Victoria controls the river!
@@jimkez Viva Victoria!!!
I used to live in Mildura on the Vic/NSW border. 1982. Yes, the Vic cops DID stop at the bridge right at Victorian (southern) bank and was well known by locals of both sides. Apparently there was little to no communication between respective constabularies and was joked about and indeed revered by local coppers as a means to avoid lengthy paperwork (pre-computer).
Thanks for sharing. Sounds like a scene from a Scandinavian crime drama. The Bridge. Mildura Edition.
@@JulianOShea I am starting to understand how you operate....your next foray one wonders? 🤷♂️
I also lived near Mildura. On the NSW side. The NSW border is at pool level of the river Murray on the Victorian side. The pool level being the normal level. When the river floods the border stays the same but now Victoria owns part of the river so they are responsible for.... Are you following all this? Well, I wonder what happens in this odd place?
@@JulianOShea There was literally a Canadian crime comedy about it, Bon Cop Bad Cop, where a body was found on the Welcome to Ontario/Bienvenue a Quebec sign and the only thing the Quebec and Ontario cops agreed on is they didn't want the Feds to take over.
There was a joke on a comedy show where a body was across the NSW/VIC border at the Murray and the NSW and VIC cops couldn't decide who had jurisdiction on the case (neither wanted to do the paperwork) so threw the body in the water to make it SA's problem.
Great work! I didn’t know about this intriguing part of Australian history.
Perhaps you could do a video on the topic of the road from Sydney to Canberra, where it passes through the NSW/ACT border about seven times seven kilometres. “You are now entering the ACT... You are now entering NSW”, repeated many times, as the almost straight road crosses a messy border line.
NSW/ACT border is based on the watershed. Water on one side flows into ACT. Road from Bungendore might be straight-ish, but the land contours aren’t.
I was kid in the Riverland of SA (very close to that weird bit of river border) the locals wanted a South Australian fishing license because if you wanted to move around you could find yourself needing permits from different states!
True. Good point.
I've never been happier to be a Queenslander than I am after reading that
My dad always said country wide car rego and fishing stuff etc would make way more sense, but because you get paid multiple times the governments aren't gonna change anything.
you would need two actually, there is no fishing license in SA although i wouldn't be against it (as long as the money goes to the fishery and fisheries)
as soon as I heard "border" and "dispute" in the same sentence I immediately knew he was going to mention the British Empire at some point
Ha! Ha! :-)
Loving these vids Julian! Awesome to see some Aussie historical vids.... we've got such an amazing history full of such tough characters who did amazing things, there really needs to be more exposure about them.
I reckon the story of Matthew Flinders is worth telling, too.
Cheers, Glenn
Rivers are national property for the benefit of the people. States cannot wage a power battel on resources that's meant to be shared.
Lonely Serviceton station museum is a Victorian era architectural gem, staffed by some friendly, local volunteers. Thanks for showing it.
I live in Serviceton 👍🏻 and yes it’s a beautiful little town and the post office is shutdown now
@@Jacob-te3mh Oh no! With the SA border shut, where do you do your shopping, Kaniva?
Woah, I’m a Victorian myself, and never have heard of this until now! Good job covering this Julian.
As a geographer I'm glad I'm not the only one facepalming with border OCD
I feel you.
Great video! Enjoyed this little nugget of unknown aussie history! Cheers and keep up the good work!
High Julian. I just recently discovered the channel and love it. Pardon me if I raise issues you have already traversed. Have you looked at the SA/VIC border anomaly on the Glenelg River just North of Nelson in Victoria? There is this tiny sliver of land on a bend of the east bank of the river that is technically in SA. VicPol, Vic Fisheries and the local council have no authority in this space, and yet the SA authorities have to travel into VIC to get there. This has led to al sorts of ambiguity and unauthorized fishing shack development . The space seems to have a local name of Donovan's. Worth a visit if for no other reason than the nearby princes Margret Rose Caves.
Thanks so much for sharing, Mark. As you can see I love these anomalies. Haven’t heard of this one - but next time I’m in the area - I’ll check it out. Very cool
@@JulianOShea if you look up donovans landing on google maps you will see the green area (national preserve) is the anomaly, the problem is to get there you either have to cross by boat or cross through vic as there are no bridges.
I bloody love your unique topics and channel. I love learning about history and stuff but it's so great learning stuff I would never have known about my own backyard (Melbourne)
The towns folk in the disputed area wanted to be in South Australia because Victoria has shit weather.....
and shit beer lol
Next you can travel to Boundary Islet in Bass Strait to explore how another charting error created a very short land border between Victoria and Tasmania. The shortest border between two Australian states.
But I am sure the seagulls probably don't care.
I learnt about this from a quiz night!
Excuse me! Seagulls are caring birds, I hope you know.
@@gortnewton4765 My apologies. I did not intend to denigrate seagulls by implying they were in general uncaring.
I was suggesting that they would probably hold a disdain for such arbitrary demarcations drawn across their domain by mere humans.
@@davebarx lol, clever, love it.
Did the coronavirus border closure split that island? 😆
Have just recently noticed your videos popping up, thoroughly enjoying them. This one was so interesting & completely unknown to me prior to this.
Thanks, Sue - Glad you like them!
Back in the 70s there was a comedy-history program on the ABC called 'Australia A to Z' that talked about this. They did a sketch where the SA-Vic border runs through a house, right down the middle of the bedroom - husband's side of bed is in one state, and wife's is in the other, with border guards on both sides.
I never knew this so appreciate the video! One thing though, serviceton was never a break of gauge station as you suggest at 2:55. The melbourne-Adelaide line was built as 5’3” gauge in the late 19th century then converted to standard gauge 4’8.5” a century later, but the station was only really needed to change crews, not gauge.
Politicians in the 1980s deluded themselves that there was a break of guage and spent multi millions to fix a non existent problem. The Minister became a laughing stock on opening day when his speech said no longer would passengers need to change trains.
@@MartintheTinman you do realise that in this context it was the government Minister of Transport. Your taxes at work.
@@MartintheTinman
You still buy stuff - GST.
@@MartintheTinman Should I report your possession of drugs and theivery to the Ballarat Police Department
Tom waits song “town with no cheer is” is written about serviceton
Wow, this was a great morning watch to start my day! Fascinating stuff.
Cheers, Dennis!
We made a stop at Serviceton on our way back from Adelaide to Melbourne because of this video. What an interesting experience!
Even my 70+ inlaws who are born and raised Melbournians had no idea about this town.
Great video! Pretty impressed they got so close with burning trees and piles of sticks.
I love this channel so much! I'm a Queenslander and yet i know shit about my own country. I'm a huge history nerd and you've taught me some interesting things about Aussie history so thanks man!
Another fantastic video - they keep getting better!
Thanks! That’s the trend line I’m after.
Good information about the border between SA and VIC. I like how you show us about history of the border.
Awesome! Would love to see a true-to-life outline map of SA with that little dongle bit included. It'll mess with my OCD of wanting to see a straight line though
I’ve been to McCabes corner. Shooting a TV show a few years back in which we visited all 5 (6) of the interior corners in 18 days.
Brilliant Julian! Thank you for telling this story!!
Glad you liked it. :)
So interesting! Another fun australian border mistake related fact I recently learned is there is a very small (85m) land border between Tasmania and Victoria as a mistake setting the maritime borders resulted in that border running through Boundary Islet
Several points along the river where Victoria actually drifts north into NSW retail bend in the hattah national park is a good example. When the river was surveyed it was during a flood so the "river" mapped was actually a creek
I just came across your channel. You have a really good channel mate, with interesting facts and history, and entertaining at the same time. Looking forward to seeing more from you. Im in Melbourne
Thanks, Michelle!
I am once reminded by the fact that Australia has states that sometimes act like countries. (Border controls, disputes, etc..)
I'm reminded that people care about anything in australia besides that bottom right corner, somehow it slipped my mind that there would still be enough people living out in the boonies who'd warrant governance
They still do!
This is so interesting I always wondered why that border was so weird but the story is even more interesting than I thought. Thank you for exploring Australian history and culture!! Maybe you could make a video on why Canberra is the capital city and the disputes between Sydney and Melbourne over deciding it?
Serviceton...my childhood home. I know the station VERY well!
Nice! They’re getting some silo art soon.
@@JulianOShea Sweet...that'd be alright. The town used to be a thriving railway town until the railways shut the station and allowed straight through running without changing locomotives. Now it's just a ghost town. :( The sound of the locomotives idling in the yard used to be my bedtime lullaby.
Subscribed! Loving your Aussie researched content and the way you present it. All the best in these crazy times too:)
Thank you very much!
As an avid map reader from childhood I always wondered why the SA Victoria border wasn't straight. Thanks for the information.
On a side note, I spoke to my cousin recently and he was telling me that the NSW Victoria border was supposed to have been on the Murrumbidgee River instead of the Murray River which would have the border approximately half way between Sydney and Melbourne. Apparently this was due to a clerical error. Have you heard this as well?
Yes I have heard that. Maybe a mistake was made in the Colonial Office in London, or NSW pulled a shifty and not wanting to lose good grazing country between Wagga and the Murray.
Love this. As a South Aussie, who loves the Murray and is a geography nut this was a great video.
Been living in Australia for 2 years now from Melbourne to Townsville, and I've always wondered why that odd border with SA was there.
This brings a new meaning to the term "in a state of confusion" lol.
Another great story. Thanks Julian.
Daaaamn! I had no idea about this border issue at all!
Thank you for the video 🙂
I love your videos, Julian. Keep it up!
Cheers, mate!
Well, I never knew that! Fascinating!
I love whacky borders, didn't know we had one ourselves!
Nice to see some aussie history that isn't the goldrush for the umpteenth time
Excellent young gentleman, instructive, research ... I think because of such contributions RUclips was founded.
I think the Judge who dissented was the same one who handed down the first minimum wage case judgement
The effort and the quality omg SUBSCRIBED!!!!
Thanks, mate!
I always thought that the idea of the border was to reflect where the Murray crossed the 34°S line so that no part of Victoria was north of that.
Great video mate well done! 👍🏼
Ah, Australia. We have some of the oddest arguments amongst ourselves. Like Sydney and Melbourne fighting so much that we built an entire town and territory to solve the argument.
Nah Melbourne won that one. Sydney didn't get a thing they were after as Melbourne was the capital till Canberra was established and Canberra is technically not in NSW.
I think this one is my favourite of all your videos. Thanks for making it, I enjoyed it.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Fantastic clip. Well done :) 👏👏👏
Thanks for the hospitality! :)
Nice video - years ago while living in Bright in the North East part of Victoria we headed to Albury but had a problem with my car. It stopped on the middle of Lincoln Causway and due to living in Victoria I called RACV but they told me that they couldn't help as I was on the bridge and told me to contact NRMA who support people on the roads in New South Wales. I then called them but they said, "Sorry can't help ya" you need to contact the RACV....like WTF!!!!! Finally after about an hour, the cops turned up (From NSW, and towed my car off the bridge back into Victoria), then I called RACV, again who said - "No worries we can help you, be there soon..." ay ya yi!!!!!
You should have played the song about Serviceton as background music . Tom Waits 'Town with no cheer' . Just subscribed .
Just looked on Google earth and the grey area as you called it has a border drawn right through the middle of the river, half on victoria half on south australia, and yes as you said the border changes to the victorian bank as soon as its past this area.
I’m from a town on the “victoria” side called mildura and I know along that stretch of river nsw river police handle water crimes
Makes sense. Most criminals are from NSW.
Makes sense. Most criminals are from NSW.
@@shaneeaston4027 was low effort and juvenile the first time champion, no need to double up.
@@TheRealMycanthrope you should make a second effort at commenting champ. That one sucked.
@@QuestionThingsUseLogic You are the 2nd person to tell me that
Well done one your summary and analysis.
Sir Charles' Todd is my great great grandfather.
His best known work in surveying was his participation in setting the boundary line between SA & NSW that resulted in a call for a change in the existing boundary between SA and Victoria.
In 1864 Todd had suspected the accuracy of the fixing of the 141 meridian boundary between South Australia and New South Wales on completion of the Sydney line in 1866.
In 1867 Surveyor-General Goyder approached Todd to assist with the fixing of Longitude that defined the SA & VIC / NSW border and in 1870 Todd mark out the SA & WA border.
In 1868 Todd worked with the Sydney and Melbourne observatories to establish an accurate time signal through the interstate telegraph line. In conjunction with his astronomy knowledge and surveying skills, he was able to correctly plot the State borders.
The solution agreed to by all was that the 141 meridian was two and a third miles (3.7 km) to the east of the original boundary.
The "Disputed Territory" comprised 1,295 km² of land which technically Victoria had no right to lease or sell. In 1911, SA sued Victoria in the High Court - a case that was dismissed. As you quite rightly noted, the subsequent appeal in 1914 to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council ruled in favour of Victoria.
cheers
Look at the tweed coolangatta border it's a nightmare atm
My brother used to live in Tweed Heads NSW, just on the border in fact, the end of his street was in Coolangatta Queensland. and the Airport is even worse, it's divided between NSW and Queensland.
One side is Tweed Heads, the other side is Two Heads.😊😊
So good to see some actual Australian content on RUclips.
It's also interesting that today as I speak, (17th August, 2021), Premier Annastacia Palaszczuk says she will write to her NSW counterpart asking her to temporarily move the Queensland-NSW border south to the Tweed River. A Queensland proposal to potentially make life easier for border residents during covod Lockdown, once the interstate boundaries were closed by COVID-19, was rejected by New South Wales officials four months ago.
And it should be rejected again.
well maybe the border should be drawn north of brisbane and the problem is solved
You know, New Zealand has no state parliaments, just one Federal Parliament. And in 1922, Queensland passed legislation to abolish the Upper House was and it became the only unicameral state parliament in Australia. I reckon we should abolish the States.
@@mikmop
i reckon new zealand should be abolished and become a dependant territory of australia.
@@epicbeardface2981 exactly - governments should NEVER make life easier for the people.
I saw this on google maps a while back, and I couldn’t find out why until I saw this video. Thanks Julian!
So, theoretically one could travel north from Victoria and end up in SA? And here's me going west all this time!
Sure can! - Try something new in 2021.
You missed the really fun option - travelling east from Victoria to South Australia.
Awesome video! Very informative and well presented.
Although born in ACT, I call myself a Victorian as I've spent most of my life here, but lived in Whyalla SA for 7 years. At the end of the day, we are all Australians, and that's what matters.
I have subscribed and look forward to enjoying more of your content.
And if you ever need a hand, would love to collaborate - after locldown of course.
Really interesting video man! It's definitely South Australian tho
It’s a Farmers Union Iced Coffee or it’s nothing.
@@JulianOShea fleurieul milk co is better, and locally owned. You’ve been gone to long.
You definitely deserve more subscribers and views. Your videos are excellent! Keep it up!
This is great. Heres hoping you put even more facts into your future videos. Very entertaining and educationaly. If you were slightly more enthusiastic, you would be the Tom Scott of Australia
very interesting and well put together. liked and subscribed!
As an Australian I find it interesting that within the next couple hundred years, Australian states & territories will likely change a whole lot, either new states will show up, some states will become their own countries, or even more cities will show up around the place.
I'm south Australian and I feel like we get kicked under the rug a lot since we are kinda in the middle, not a big city but nothing small at all.
I don’t believe it! A South Australian with no opinion about a dispute with Victoria?!? Nest you’ll make a video telling us all how Victoria didn’t steal our Grand Prix. Good work Julian, I only recently discovered your channel, and really enjoy it.
I actually think we both should team up and fight NSW over the damned water as its the tributaries there that get syphoned off to grow cotton for overseas, Victoria is just fortunate they get more rain than us.
@@madcatlady Agreed, growing rice and cotton in this country is madness.
Map men map men men map map map men men map
They so good.
Awesome video. Keep up the good work.
Thanks, will do!
wow 61 and learn something new every day. always thought it was a straight border, bloody victorians.
Well! You should have sent your own surveyors.
I must be history nerd . I knew about this decades ago but loved you had a lot more information to soak up
The discrepancy started exactly where Wade and White started their journey West...their starting point heading north was a great deal more accurate to 141 E, had their inital starting point been true.
Latitude and direction are functions of geometry and even in those days could be fairly accurately measured. Longitude is a function of geometry + time and you will see it sometimes measured in hours and minutes rather than degrees. (I learned this at Uni in my Surveying course). In the times before satellites, there were short wave radio signals to provide the time. Before that, they had to carry a time piece. It looks like their clock wasn't calibrated correctly.
@@davidmc105 Actually, the co-ordinates of where they thought they were when they started was based on an old (for the time) calculation based on astronomy. That was the trouble, their own calculations were fairly correct as you said.
I spent some cold nights in winter (clear nights are always the coldest) measuring longitude from the stars. Finding your position relative the stars is half the equation. The other factor is the earth's rotation which is a direct function of time hence the need for a clock. Any error in your clock is directly transmitted to your answer for longitude which is your offset from the Prime Meridian through Greenwich. It could also be that they had the wrong right ascension of the stars they used.
@@davidmc105 To be precise, it was based on the calculations made of the fixed point of the Sydney Observatory between 1770 and 1822. 'The Disputed Country - Australia's Lost Border' by Bob Dunn, p.23, shows how the known co-ordinate of said fixed point changed over time, so by the time (actually) Charles Tyers went west to 141E, the difference found later was as a result. Wade and White then took over from where Tyers declared 141E and headed north...
Thanks for pointing the border out i had never noticed the difference until now
Great video --- Victoria won 😂😂
The Best Cold Beer is Vic.
Military checkpoints…. Victoria has lost
now i am understanding what it is all about that beer adv.
@@JulianOShea It's Coopers, you Philistine.
Thanks for the interesting video. Back in 1992, as part of my OH&S role in Australian National Rail, I put forward a plan for a DISCEX - Discussion Exercise - based at Serviceton. A DiscEx is a way to test the Disaster Preparedness of the stakeholders, in this case the Rail Authority, Police and Emergency Services from both sides of the Border. I postulated that a grain truck got stuck on a farm road just near the Serviceton Station and the Overland Express crashed into it. Thus the Emergency Response would be from both States.
I got to do a trip to Benalla (I think it was) with my Bosses from AN Passenger & Travel to go over the territory and to meet with the Disaster Team that would be running the Exercise.
I didn't get to be part of it but from all reports back it was a valuable exercise to make sure each stakeholder could show their understanding of their roles and preparedness to act if something like that did happen.
One thing I did find out was was that the Police on both sides of the Border regularly meet with their counterparts and have authority to cross the border and make arrests if needed.
Exactly the kind of geeky I love.
A bit late to the recommended party but can you do a short video about the “Boundary Islet”? It’s basically a survey error where an island is split apart by Victoria and Tasmania, which technically means Tasmania shares a land border with another state!
i was born in Vic, but my parents moved back to their origin South Aus when I was two weeks old. Some South aussies are real dicks about it and call me Victorian. X'D I had no idea the border did this!! I'd love to visit once the borders are open again. So fascinating. Anyway, I wonder if this is the beginning of South Australia's feud with VIctoria.
Yeah, let's make it a feud. Battle over the disputed territory. Send troops and claim the whole territory for S.Aussies.
@@gortnewton4765 I mean, the military are already there, right? 😆
Its not just the border its the Formula One which Victoria took off South Australia in back alley deals.The race everybody loved in Adelaide the attendance has never matched 1995 Adelaide GP in Melbourne up until today. There is a famous quote from one of the Beatles George Harrison when he was asked about the Melbourne Gp while attending it he said Adelaide was better. Also most states are not fans of Victoria lol its just how it is.
I was born in Victoria and move the South Australia when I was a year old so I know how it feels but I prefer South Australia to Victoria any day
Kick a Vic
Hmm, second RUclips recommendation for this Chanel. I’m liking it. Nice work, cool content👍
Welcome aboard!
Classic Aussie way to discuss important historical journeys: zero mention of Indigenous Australian involvement
I am from the Netherlands and here in Europe we are used to weird borders. I like your story on this one, it made me laugh. I travelled Australia quite extensively on motorbike and love the little remote villages. Your video reminds me of the lovely conversation I had with the local people.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Hi Julian, great video! Small factorial there's a part of the Murray than falls under Victorian jurisdiction, namely the Murray that flows south of Beveridge Island, near Tyntynder.
Beautifully documented - thanks.
Love these videos Julian.
I have seen this video already! I really enjoy learning more about my country, even if I have travelled a lot of it
This was very interesting, thanks for all the work that went into it.
CONGRATULATIONS Julian! 10,000 subscribers!!!👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏
Thanks, Karen!
@@JulianOShea 30k now!
As someone who lives in Albury and worked in Wodonga during the border lockdowns, can say it was a nightmare! Branching from another comment - how Canberra became the ACT and how Albury was a contender and the part they played in the signing. Also the friendship Albury have with the Dutch via the ‘Uiver’. Think they could be interesting.
If you're interested in surveying errors, check Johannesburg - Lilian Ngoyi St, previously Van Der Walt St, previously.... Apparently the surveyors from north and south had inaccuracies and the cross roads on this one road deviate significantly.