The Future of Pop OS
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- Опубликовано: 11 сен 2024
- System76 looks to be ditching GNOME and building its own Desktop Environment. But WHY? Jason, Jerry and Schykle unpack and analyze the news, alongside our special guest from @KdeOrg with his unique insights.
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#System76 #PopOS #GNOME
Creating a new DE can bring Innovation with enough effort and time, but also regression feature wise and fragmentation in the community. This might not be the way some people think, but the Linux community needs more focused development to truly have the man power to innovate and make substantial changes.
@H segunda conta Almost all DEs are based off GNOME, so, in the end they're all the same thing... It's good something new appears.
@H segunda conta Linux is meant to give freedom to the user to choose, not to be fragmented if we take about philosophy. It's a big difference between the 20 or so DEs Linux has and the closed environments of Windows and Mac OS. I was wondering if the same work would be put in half the number of DEs, not a total streamlining of the Linux GUI experience.
@@ledennon I think you're confusing distros with desktop environments. Gnome is one of the most used DEs right now, but they are just 2 other DEs which are based on it, Cinnamon and MATE. If you talk about Ubuntu or Pop OS, they are customised Gnome. Theoretically you can build them up from a stock Gnome interface with some extensions and configurations.
Yes, true
yea
It isn't fragmentation. It's decentralized development. The only way to organize this many people is to let us all go off and work on our own thing. So long as we all publish code, the best ideas can be shared. Basically, we're all doing free R&D for everyone else.
Agree 100%. The only people that complain about "fragmentation" are those that too feeble-minded and indecisive to make their minds up.
"Fragmentation" = "Choice" = "A good thing".
@@terrydaktyllus1320 Fragmentation = more confusing = more people complain about lack of tutorials = smaller number of users = companies will still ignore Linux.
@@n124ajdx Yes, for people who are too lazy to do proper research and spend time learning Linux, it is confusing - but it's their problem, not a Linux one.
And why do people like you not UNDERSTAND one core concept - most Linux users DO NOT CARE about desktop penetration or who does or does not ignore it. We don't use Linux because it is POPULAR, otherwise we wouldn't use it in the first place, would we!
I don't care if it has 2% or 92% desktop penetration, it does not change how I use it.
And someone who will only use something because it is popular should not use Linux.
You've answered your own questions, I am just "holding up a mirror" to you.
@@terrydaktyllus1320 that's what's called hypocritical thinking, Linux community don't care about popularity but they are complaining why Companies don't care about Linux.
Or why they are making distros like Zorin that try to bring people from other OS ? (Even though that always fail since Zorin still have the same problem that other distros have)
"I'm just holding a mirror for you"
@@n124ajdx Show me the people that complain about companies that don't care about Linux. I don't complain, so show me where they are as proof of your point.
I will watch this later today but everyone have a great day or night
You too Andrew, thanks!
What a nice guy. Have a good one too
You too man
Did you get a chance to watch it?
Every desktop that tries to use Gnome ends up having to fork/re-write it .... Notice this doesn't happen with KDE centric distros as (1) You actually can configure the desktop easily (2) its usable as it is ..
Now that you mention it...
So why don't distros do it? Could it have something to do with the ambiguous names all the Plasma apps have? Kate, Dolphin and so On?
Edit: Big Distros.
@@footlicker6585 I like both. I use PopOS as my daily driver so I'm very Pro Gnome desktop I think it's great. With that said.The key question why have so many Distros forked Gnome over the years. That's a point worth exploring surely something is not right behind the scenes. We don't need so many DEs but someone clearly sees a need to move away from the core Gnome experience and rewrite it. Hopefully this great channel explores that question.
@@williamevans6830 It's the same for every forks. There are so many forks here and there. Why would they fork things if it's so bad? They just don't like the direction the source makes. Basically they are afraid to change. Look at mint. They are so stuck on Windows XP that to them, It's the perfection. Zorin, they love Windows 7. Elementary. They all fork and deviate to meet their Perfect Desktops. By saying GNOME to not change, you're denying their vision of their Perfect Desktop. Also why so many years they didn't bother with Plasma? Everyone knows too much of anything is a mess.
@André Luiz Henrique • há 104 anos Yup. That's the exact reason. System76 has their own interests. GNOME is not their project. So they are making their own one.
Also why Android team forked Mainline Linux years ago? because Linux won't let them upstream their mess into Mainline Linux. Does that mean Linux is bad or there is something wrong with Linux? Don't think so.
It’s a tough situation and I can’t really say any one side is at fault. Usually I’d blame gnome for being inflexible but I’m starting to realize their strict cohesion is part of why Gnome is the polished and well integrated DE that it is. Which is an immense benefit to newer and even more experienced users of Linux that just want to use something fairly effortless with good defaults. And system76 clearly can’t implement their desired UX by waiting for every petition for change in Gnome to eventually get picked up instead writing hacky workarounds to make gnome behave the way they want. It seems like this is just the inherent nature of FOSS and we need to get better at writing software that works with this vast ecosystem instead of hoping it will somehow just naturally become more cohesive by itself. That’s a tough problem to solve though
Actually the inherent nature of FOSS is "with great power, comes great responsibity"
The tools are there, its up to users to build sometiing out of it, some build platforms others a customizable layer cake and yet others propose a layer cake platform ;)
My feelings about pop os as someone who daily drives it on my main workstation and productivity laptop. I worry that features that exist in the current Cosmic Desktop/Gnome desktop like the power management system or other elements won't be present in a different DE if I don't like the desktop environment that comes out. I don't want to be shipwrecked on my production machine due to changes.
I'm optimistic for the future but I worry
That's a fair concern, Andrew.
BUT... I feel like features such as system76-power are elements that DEFINE Pop OS. I strongly believe they will not abandon any of the quality-of-life stuff they've built into Pop OS.
@@LinuxForEveryone I agree! I was just hastily writing that comment after watching the video, I thank you for the quick response.
Lemur pro user here (as my main / work laptop too) and of course I use Pop!_OS, just wanted to say that, system76-power is implemented in rust and available as a cli program. The gnome integration is just frontend stuff
Popos is customer centric, they are more than likely are reimplementing what they have now but independent of the gnome shell
@@LinuxForEveryone Something new & different, I'm always interested in looking at unique stuff in the f/OSS ecosystem. 🚀
People mention fragmentation a lot, but not heard anyone mention diversity as a counterpoint. There's a benefit to new implementations of common ideas, it brings friendly competition & innovation to the table and the best F-oSS concepts can be borrowed to make all work better.
Like with Wayland-Stuff or SystemD it isn't an issue until it locks-in the way it has to Gnome and becomes a dependency. That stuff should either go to the kernel or the DE but not be a barrier to diversity nor modularity in the F-oSS ecosystem.
The System76 wants the user to have a large, comfortable, and fuel-efficient car.
The Gnome developers want the user to have a bicycle.
Personally I would prefer them to adopt Plasma, but if they want to do their own DE I'm looking forward to it.
Personally I would prefer them to adopt Sway.
Nah system76 is building an astin martin while gnome is building bmw. There is no one size fits all there no reason any foss project has to offer all options ;)
Gnome had already built a (heavy, awkward, pedal-less) bicycle before, but now they have decided that users don't need a seat either, or handlebars, and they've case-hardened the frame so aftermarket vendors can't easily fit those conveniences any more.
@@gregvanpaassen your completely missing the direction they are going. calm down and consider what their goal is
That nick cameo made me spill my coffee 😂
and about pop's new DE, i'm excited to see how DE Written in RUST will work,
i hope it will turn out to be good, for s76 and for us
yes
So long as the new Pop OS DE is available to everyone open source then I think it could be a real competitor to Windows. Ordinary people like the idea of one company handling the whole experience. The Linux patchwork puts Windows and MacOS users off 'risking' a switch.
well it need to be as user friendly as windows and macos or it will be just another distro that pretend to be user friendly. system 76 also need to do some serious UX testing and have a a lot of bete-tester, because UX is the biggest flaws of all LInux distros
Been hearing that a while. Yet no linux distro has caused mass exodus from the other platforms.
GNOME does lots of things right for my use case. I'm sure many others also feel the same. Less choices that I may use or never. Minimal interface that highlights relevent stuffs. And a coherent UI.
I can understand Pop wanting to move away from GNOME. System76 built Cosmic depends entirely on the extensions and they have limitations and easily breaks with an update. So good for them. Also a DE on Rust feels like a great memory efficient, approach.
It's nice to see people with an open mind who appreciate both perspectives. Cheers!
You can depend on something that eventually will break your project. I bet Zorin will also move away from GNOME at some point.
yes
@@LinuxForEveryone yea
@@MarkHobbes yes
Gnome is killing themselves. it will get to the point that everyone is going to leave to others DE or like system 76, creating their own stuff.
Sometimes I think the Gnome developers really want to piss everyone off.
I don't know. Installed Fedora on a friend's System & KDE Neon. Friend got overwhelmed with Plasma and prefer GNOME. Gave him a Mint Cinnamon and too "Windows XP" ish. So basically only GNOME stands out among most DE Linux got now and new users like the fresh experience away from a start button.
The problem is we as Linux users got too accustomed to the things we have used that we find one to be better. But if you hopped in Linux now with no prior experience, expecting something unique. Plasma is just "bloated complex Windows 7" with poor app naming ( Quoting my friend there & yes he is noob ). We need some fresh eyes to provide better feedbacks. Not just veterans with decades of experience.
i'm new to Linux and i just tried gnome on Ubuntu LTS for one week then i switched to Mint with Cinnamon, just from this short experience i can already tell how bad is gnome it's the first time i had a restrictive DE that force me to operate on my computer like if i was using a mobile phone
@@n124ajdx Windows user I see. If you were Mac user, you would switch to Elementary.
You need to get used to it to appreciate it.
@@akza0729 nah i think learning to use a bad designed product is a big mistake.
What i need to do is to switch to a better product which is what i did when i switched to Cinnamon
There are bugs in POP_OS that date back to 2016 and I still have them, critical stuff too. On boot nvidia drivers reset to default settings, resets to default audio device, returns from suspend with no video signal, you get some cryptic error message every time you open the Pop!_shop. Other annoyances: Password Nazi, minimal file browsing options, iffy thumbnail generator, can't launch at boot if you app is a flatpack whatever that means.
Hopefully system76 will offer official builds with KDE, MATE, Cinnamon, or any other DE.
well we really need a competitor to windows. we should support this project as much as possible!
The only distribution that gets the Gnome desktop right is Zorin OS.
I think pop_os is amazing, I love everything system 76 does.
Nice discussion. :-) Looking forward to seeing what System76 comes up with.
9:23
YES. COMBINE
enough with the forks, please. we need the community working together to create ONE great alternative. too much effort has been wasted
What ppl need to recognize is that innovation in open source comes from better common protocols, libraries that serve them and broader audience and actually it’s good when there is movement from new actors that have differing perspectives
People complain about fragmentation a lot, but not heard anyone mention diversity as a counterpoint. There's a benefit to new implementations of common ideas, it brings friendly competition & innovation to the table and the best F-oSS concepts can be borrowed to make all work better. Like with Wayland-Stuff or SystemD it isn't an issue until it locks in the way it has to Gnome and becomes a dependency. That stuff should either go to the kernel or the DE but not be a barrier to diversity nor modularity in the F-oSS ecosystem. If it's Something new & different, then I'm always interested in looking at unique stuff in the f/OSS ecosystem. 🚀
Agree 100%. It is not "fragmentation", it is "choice".
@@terrydaktyllus1320 Exactly and almost always licensed in a way that can move code or features to other projects even if they win in the marketplace of ideas. It's almost like distros are meaningless forks now when all the same :/
Can we leave out the active clip of a jam session on one of the windows? It is distracting. I am interested in the information and would like to watch the video, not just listen to it.
I believe this is a really good decision. I think gnome is the one which wants itself to be used by a smaller number of people . Most of the people want sane defaults like in pop os (desktop icons, tray icons , dock, and all the settings inside the settings app itself). I think what system76 has done or tried to do with gnome made it more user friendly . And that has wider audience . Personally , I feel like they are in a transition period and im really looking forward to it.
love the new Community Question sound. And good call inserting the Elementary os Nick meme 😄
i like the idea of s76 making their own things, new valuable features that other people could implement in their software could be reach, i feel is a win win scenerio, also other distributions could benefit from their DE, just look at elementary and gnome, it has become better and better
pd: imho, i would consider fedora as the gnome distro, they were the first to embrace it, and had help their development a whole lot
Looking forward to this new DE. I hope it's a lot more light weight even more than KDE.
I for one, look forward to it!
The way I personally see it, Pop!_OS already IS for a wide audience. People just want something functional and easy to use; they don't want to constantly yell at their computer. We'll never stop making features for our STEM core, but the front-end is there and maybe one or two tweaks away from looking like a true alternative to MacOS and Windows. From there, it's just about growing the userbase by informing people that a 3rd option is out there for them.
I agree with you, Alex. Just please lose the alien theme. I hope you arrive at your goals and believe you will.
@@LaurieFloodTeacher Alien theme?
@@alexgerber5675 yes, the pictures you get as you're installing it.
There's enough room for yet another DE it addresses needs other DEs don't or can't address.
I had difficulties with Debian for several months so I decided to give PopOS a try and then I discovered they support switching to KDE Plasma and so far it's been much better than the vanilla Debian experience so far.
The future of Pop OS: Installing Steam without bricking your DE, a brave new future of possibilities and innovation
I wish they would mention about the future of the Pop Shop even a little bit :)
I'm interested in what they come up with. But myself, when I've used PopOS in the past, I immediately installed the Cinnamon Desktop on it. Worked just fine. Cinnamon is my favorite. I hope they come up with something different and good.
There is ALWAYS room for more desktop environments. More choice is more better!
not for the people who want to make tutorial and people who want to switch to Linux.
@@n124ajdx I can see that more choices can be more confusing to new users, but I still think having more options is a good thing. And even for those doing tutorials, they get to learn something new and make more videos, which nets them more money from RUclips!
@@Viking8888 i don't think you understand the way it works. Having 100 of distros made it impossible for anyone to create a good tutorial that works for every distro.
Linux is already too confusing, and it's just become more confusing without good tutorials
I've done my fare share of distro-hopping back in the day , but during the last three years I've found POP_OS to be a mightily fine balanced tool to use and - for the moment - I can't see myself parting with it for the foreseeable future . To be honest Gnome is a bit bland (but works) and I certainly welcome any change be it in KDE or a new DE ...
This is the best decision they will have ever made.
I think that it wouldn't be a bad idea if System76 keeps their GNOME desktop as an option to choose during installation while they release their own DE. This may prevent the 'shock' that Ubuntu users experienced during GNOME 2 - Unity freakout that cost Ubuntu's users that switched to Linux Mint.
It's going to be interesting, if they will actially support the things, they said they wanted gnome to do. So custom theming for users, app maintainers and the distro for e.g. I don't think they will.
How about touchpad gestures? will it available in 21.10?
I don’t think trying to emulate Apple in this regard is a bad thing at all. I have a MacBook and honestly it is one of my favourite pieces of hardware I’ve ever used. The OS and the physical machine are so tightly integrated that the experience of using it is far more enjoyable. If System76 can make a DE that is Apple-like in quality for System76 machines then they will be an immediate recommendation for all kinds of Linux user.
The big hurdle, I believe, is how the DE operates. Is it more laptop or desktop centric? I think Apple is in a hole of their own making where MacOS feels amazing on a laptop but lacks that same flow on the desktop. Unless you have the magic trackpad. Windows does feel good on the desktop but is lacking in a laptop. Linux can be either or, but it really needs to be both. Gnome feels great on a laptop with gestures, but KDE does not feel good on anything but a desktop.
11:47 Niccolo thinking: "KRunner..."
Some people are asking, why they didn't switch to kde instead.
amazing broadcast dude !
I have done straight Linux builds and avoiding the pain of that company that rhymes with Mike Rowe's Soft... Linux Mint seems to work flawlessly on these builds and will continue to work with Mint in the future... The only exception was the one or two times LMDE was used and the build crashed... I later found the problem and even that worked flawlessly once I found the problem within the BIOS settings...
There is always a room for a new desktop environment
Why not just customize KDE? KDE is a mature desktop and is eminently customizable.
It's not Linux that is bad it's the support you don't get with every distro.
ASK UBUNTU: "Either learn how to code or suck on it as is."
Me: Thanks ASK UBUNTU
There is already KwinFT, a fork of KWin for modernization, and wayfire which can become centre to DEs..l just a matter of time for ppl to use that.
Thanks.
Fly-de from Astra Linux could work too, IMHO.
I don't know man I just love gnome as everything else seems unusable to me. Last week I tried KDE plasma on my old machine and couldn't stand it.
ah yes... reinventing the wheel "in rust" is a thing currently...
I didn't know Brett Weinstein was a Linux advocate lol
Finally someone pronouncing gnome correctly in the Linux world lol nearly everyone calls in ganome and not nome..
EITHER is correct, Simon. Straight from the source: twitter.com/gnome/status/1237867846987730948
Lol that Nick edit! 🤣
I welcome anything new and works for the user, but all this misinformation and turning your back on GNOME after building off it really sucks. If it fails who do you blame?
Pop os need KDE support
...their hardware customers.
Digital pack-rat -noun- a subclass of nerd who refuses to delete a file or other form of data.
synonym: Data hoarder, Data pack-rat or electronic magpie
ex: Linus Sabastian is such a digital packrat he built a petabyte worth of storage and filled it up.
GA nome ✅ nome ❌
I'll just drop this here:
twitter.com/gnome/status/1169956747324227585
New desktop, you say? You mean like how Android looks? Or Mac? hhhhhhmmmmmm.....
last
middle
i am already "first", no need to say it.
Please stop praising apple
Yes! Ditch Gnome. Gnome sucks
No such thing as Linux for everyone, if something goes wrong and it always does, you have to ask a Linux nerd for help that most have zero social skills and can only answer with acronyms aka ASK UBUNTU.
POP OS is pure junk. Doesn't work right, too many bugs.
Better off starting with a raw Linux Install, and manually add a de and other things. POP is simply junk.
Well your average user wouldn't do base arch/gentoo/lfs install
Lemme guess you use arch btw
Not everyone is a nerd and wants to build/install components that fits them perfectly, they dont know how and they dont want to know.
They want a pre-installed OS that comes with a bunch of apps, they want that somebody makes the decision for them and prebuilds a entire system that they just can use with their mouse and a nice GUI.
That's why Ubuntu, Linux Mint etc are way more successful and loved by "non techy average joe" than Arch, Gentoo, LFS and so on.
@@salatwurzel-4388 If all of the above is accurate, Then Why go linux? If you are not a tinkerer of some sort, Linux is not for you. If you are a gamer, Linux is also not for you.
And again, Pop os is junk. If you are curious and dont want to have an awful experience, go ubuntu or mint or something stable.
@@salatwurzel-4388 i'm sort of in the middle on this. Where i want a stripped down barebones distro with just the DE, settings, terminal, and maybe a web browser. KDE Neon pretty much. So that way I can get what I want without the hassle of installing Arch. I use Manjaro Minimal though but I'd def use Neon if it was rolling.