Germany's First Smokeless Carbines: the Kar 88 and Gewehr 91
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- Опубликовано: 26 май 2018
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With the development of the smokeless Gewehr 88 “Commission Rifle”, the German Army finally made a serious effort to bring their cavalry units up to a modern standard. There had never been a carbine variant of the Mauser 71/84 produced, and even by the late 1880s many German cavalrymen were still carrying single shot Mauser 71 carbines - or worse, converted captured Chassepots from the Franco-Prussian War. While the Karabiner 88 wasn’t in production quite as quickly as they would have liked, guns were coming off the factory line in quantity by the summer of 1890. The factories tasked with this production were not actually the major start arsenals, but rather two private companies in Suhl - CG Haenel and VC Schilling (although the Erfurt Arsenal would step in in 1891 to make a batch of 25,000 carbines).
The Kar 88 was remarkable light and handy, and designed for use in a cavalry scabbard, meaning that it had a nice slick profile. This became a problem when the Army wanted to issue the carbines for foot artillery crews as well, because it gave them no way to stack the rifles while tending to their artillery pieces. The result was the Gewehr 91, which was identical to the Kar 88 in every way except for the addition of a stacking rod under the muzzle.
Both the Kar 88 and Get 91 were already being slowly taken out of service before World War One, as the new Mauser 98 pattern carbines introduced in 1909 or 1910 were taking their place. This would change with the outbreak of war, of course, and every one of the 88 pattern carbines in German inventory would be issued out during the Great War. Their size and weight made them ideal for the troops who needed a personal weapon but were unlikely to actually have to fight with it (artillery crews, cyclists, supply drivers, balloon crews, etc). After the war, they all disappeared form military service, though. The arms limitations of the Treaty of Versailles gave Germany no reason to keep obsolescent arms, and they were discarded in favor of keeping Mauser 98 pattern rifles and carbines.
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Last time I was this early, the Lebel rifle and the 8mm Lebel smokeless cartridge were still state secrets of France
was it last video ?
Monika Salvato ARE YOU A VAMPIRE? IMMORTAL? OR JUST OLD?
Mr. Mercury Thank you for clearing that up. 🙃😆😑
Just Lebel
i bet you have been too busy deleting waifus
My younger brother’s favorite collected rifle is a cherry mint KAR 88. Its a very handy and convenient rifle, but the hardest felt recoil you’ve ever felt and at night an enormous fireball !
The original Patrone 88 was much weaker then later 7,92 × 57 mm cartridges which have about a third more muzzle energy. Great find!
Funny Farmer I actually didn’t think of that but your dead-on. Now I’m curious to see how it would perform with the original load. The only complaint I have with the Carbine is that the turned- down handle is a little harder to grab and cycle fast since it’s so flat and flush with the stock. Really though it’s no big deal.
A 220 gr.round nose flat base bullet at about 2400 fps(maybe as high as 2600 fps, hand loads have two problems. Condition of firearm, and under loading a cartridge is as bad as over loading a cartridge). Remember barrel length effects velocity.
Hardest recoil? The Tankgewehr would like a word.
Anzac-A1 no one has those jackass
Thankyou, it's a a real pleasure to see these guns explained in detail as they mean a lot to me and I've never had a chance to get my hands on one! :) My German great-grandfather volunteered for the field artillery (Saxon FAR 48, Dresden) in August 1914. We have one photo of him at the train station about to leave for the Western Front that October... in which he is armed with a Kar 88 (NOT a Gew 91, there is no stacking hook). He was lucky to get it, as the official personal weapon for the FIELD artillery was a pistol or revolver - unlike the FOOT (heavy / siege) artillery who had carbines as standard. Hence the LP 08 'artillery Luger', which was supposed to give the field artillery something more effective without 'burdening' them with carbines, but was never available in sufficient numbers. Already in the 1914 campaign the field artillery were outright demanding some carbines (or picking them up from the battlefield) for battery close defence... this, combined with a temporary pistol shortage, resulted in fresh replacements like my GGF going to the front that autumn with old hand-me-down Kar 88s, presumably from cavalry stocks.
"They were slowly being surplussed out of service, that is of course until War Were Declared."
- Othias
Thank you for the Futurama reference
Do you know where I can get pork flavored gum?
is it just me or is his "howEvverrrr" almost a trademark?
It's right up there with Yakko Warner's "Ehhhhhhhh..." from Animaniacs.
Also 'at any rate'
These closed captions: the French "saucepot" rifle, a "bandit lug", "Guevara 88" lol!
The french saucepot hahaha this made me giggle 😂😭😂
The French "sauce pot", yes it is little known fact that the French were equally adept at utilizing their cookware as fighting weapons. 😆
At this point it's hard to remember if I've already seen a gun on Forgotten Weapons or C&Rsenal or both. It all blends together into a beautiful vortex of great videos about awesome guns.
Oh boy oh boy, it's "Ian shows me awesome guns i could never afford" season!
eric3844 liked for the profile pic
@@matt-kv1nu there is one at my local gun store for 700
Just passed up two gewher91s one for 275 the other for 375, instead I got a g95 carbine for 375 all matching.
@Nathan Morrow Under no pretext.
I actually own one that I'm currently fixing up
New drinking game: take a shot every time Ian says "scabbard" :)
In all seriousness, I wonder how hard it is to find a scabbard for these...
I counted 6 times.
Aww, I was hoping for some reason Ian would say "War were declared."
15:55 WAR WERE DECLARED!
Othias sent me.
ED-SKaR I see you're a disciple of good ol' Beardy as well.
A lot of the Kar88 had already been surplussed through ALFA to Abyssinia; Gew91 were given to Wiemar Landespolizei units, and a lot had their stacking rods removed officially ( for use by mounted police).
Ian, have you found any un-boogered Gew91 in the Ethiopian shipments???
Doc AV
The Mauser 71, and 84, both had accuracy issues which developed over time, due to the bolt being the locking lug. For this reason the eighty eight has a sleeved barrel. The French solution to smokeless powder's higher pressures, two locking lugs at the breech, solved this problem.
It's a tad incorrect to say these have a Mannlicher style of bolt considering that all of Mannlicher's turn-bolt designs were based on the 88, which came first. It's just a minor case of putting the cart before the horse. It's really more of an improved and scaled down Mauser 71/84 bolt design. Also, anyone else notice the kar. 88's middle barrel band is on backwards?
Nice little carbine to have around. Be nice to have a modern version of one to do some weekend plinking with.
Good Sunday morning history lesson.
Thanks Ian.
Nice rifles
Praised be the Empero-
_Oh, wrong person--_
Its amazing to me that through the 19th and mid-20th centuries there was a ton of incremental but significant development (and subsequent adoption) of new firearms technologies in national militaries, but now-a-days many have been using the same basic designs in their standard issue for the last ~50 years. Instead of major changes in operation, there's been major developments in supporting accessories. I always wonder what's going to be the next great leap in design or innovation to break this status quo.
Coil guns more likely. Going from powder to Batteries would help a lot
Until a new principal invention/discovery of weapon technology emerges, recombination of previous ideas will be the standard.
Always find your videos interesting so keep up the good work!
I always wondered if Karabiner 88's ever got refitted to have stripper clips like it's bigger brother the Gewehr 88/05.
I haven't seen any "Karabiner 88/05" variants though, if any even exist. Maybe Germany decided this carbine wasn't worth modifying
By 1905 Mauser was already developing a short rifle, the Kar 98AZ, to replace all of the carbines in service (Kar 88, Gew 91, Kar 98, Kar 98A). So it was not worth the cost of converting the Kar 88 and Gew 91 to stripper clips.
And in WW1 the carbines were used by second line units, so it was not necessary to standardise their ammunition supply with frontline infantry.
So Cool How much "I thought?" I knew about Mausers, I "Did Not!" Know!
Thanks Again, again, AGAIN!!
I bet guys 25 to THIRTY YEARS later after this carbines release, these Became a FAVORITE!! among the users.
So handy, easy, light, efective, Hard Hitting, And Handy!
Ian, can you do an episode on the history of stacking rods? They were here and then gone, and deserve their own episode.
At Parris Island in 2009-2010 we stacked our M-16s during chow and other times. Never did it again the rest of my enlistment.
@@buncer what was the stacking element? Please describe the stacking process. Thank you
Great video!
C&rsenal made an in depth video of the history of both of these rifles.
Great vid Ian. thx
No one ever mentions the other downside to tube magazines. It was a lesson my dad had taught me. If dented the magazine will become plugged. And in war a imagine that's a risk.
German Command 1891: *WHERE IS THE STACKING ROD?! THERE MUST BE A STACKING ROD!*
German Command 50 Years Later 1941 STurmGewehr44 design meeting: *WHERE IS THE STACKING ROD?! THERE MUST BE A STACKING ROD!*
German Veterans 1891-1945: "Never used it - always looked stupid, got caught on everything."
The first sorta Scout Rifle that Jeff Cooper campaigned for much much much later on!
The late Kar88 was also fitted with deflector as the '91.
Why am I getting notifications first 20 minutes after the video got uploaded lol? Great vid anyway, as per usual
3:56 CG Haenel is still in business making rifles to this day.
Very nice. German military arms are always interesting, and carbines even more so. Not sure i want to know about the recoil. A modern shooter would no doubt have to handload, as these almost certainly have the older .318" bore diameter. It would be worth handloading anyway, to keep the loads on the light side, in deference to the age of the guns. Great video as always. Thank you
grew up watching my grandfather use one of these a his deer rifle. dead on at 100 yd no deer ever moved much. miss him anbd my father. they taught my the right way to hunt and be sure of my self as a young man. 70 now and i have a grand son. guess what happens next, usa gets the next well trained old school , farm owing god fearing selfreliant citizen. ...
Congrats on 750k
Those guns look really classy
Finally 750k subscribers!!!
Was case rupture common during this period? I’ve noticed modifications on several rifles from this era to deal with it.
Scott Hancock ruptured primers were also an issue as well as ruptured cases, with the same effect. In perspective, metallic cartridges in high pressure smokeless calibre's were still evolving and quality control wasn't what it is now, and even now one hears of blown primers on 5.56 ammo. Mauser continued to provide for this contingency through the 98s with a gas shield on the front of the cocking piece.
Finallyyyy after years of searching i found someone who can tell me wich model of mauser i have. I found my Kar 88 hanging from a chimney in my grandfather farm. I still have it in PERFECT conditions, in muchhh better condition than that. I have two question, there have been some kind of scope for the Kar 88? And wich were the specs of the 8mm round?
Does yours have that little S roll mark on top of the receiver? That determines which cartridge it's safe(r) to use. The original round (M/88) is a 7.92x57mm, round nose .318 bullet weighing roughly 226 grains. Muzzle velocity was around 2000 ft/sec. In 1904-05 the Germans went to a spitzer bullet with a .323 diameter weighing in at 153 grains (S Patrone). German arsenals stamped that S mark in the receiver to show that the chamber had been reamed out to accommodate the new bullet.
Given that the rifle is on the north side of 120 years old, and that the metallurgy from those days isn't up to the standards of today, I wouldn't shoot modern 8mm Mauser ammo that has a .323 bullet in it.
As far as scoping one goes, I've never heard of the German military scoping one, but Ian would know that better than me. I'm sure that some were drilled and tapped for scope mounts when they were surplused and sporterized.
Hi, I am sure that cavalry carried sabres, lancers carried lances and Dragoon’s carried carbines unless they were classified as “Mounted Rifles”, then they carried rifles and had bayonets for hand to hand combat or used their bayonets in lieu of swords when charging on horseback.
Piere Vojzola in my country, our entire cavalry were mounted rifles. They only used the horses as transport but fought on foot.
Or if you were the Australian Light Horse you carried standard infantry rifles with fixed bayonets when charging on horse back.
I'd love to see a video on the lee carbines
Technically these're called "stutzen", because the handguard goes all the way to the muzzle.
It is possible that some cavalry could have cut off the stacking swivel si it would fit the scabbard better
2:47 Please don't ever stop making that noise ever.
Hopefully you'll still be able to post the hammer prices of these items after the auction.
I have what would be a kar 88, but it is marked mod 88. It is chambered for 7mm. It was produced by Heanel in 1907.
Do you by any chance have a pattern, or closeup pics of the nose cap for the GEW 91? I am missing the nose cap and want to make one, but I have no idea where to start.
Dammit I want one of these.
Dieter Storz estimated, as far as I remember, 150.000 Gewehr 91's
Only Ian would say "quillions" on RUclips.
Stephen Forster Scholagladiatoria does as well.
Ian, do you have a video on the model 1896/1916? I have a Spanish Mauser if you need a gun for the video.
I happen to know of one of these in my family. I reacted that it is in much better condition than these two rifles, nearly flawless stock, barrel jacket, receiver, bolt and so on. Is this uncommon and if so, should we be aware of that?
Is it vintage or a replica
So this was considered an SBR before the minimum barrel length was changed from 18" to 16"
Shreg11-87 I’m certain that it was grandfathered in, if needed
If it was before 1898 I think none of that matters. Don't quote me on it, though.
Assuming it matters, would they refund the tax stamp?
I can forgive some scratches on the wood of a 130 year old battle rifle, I think.
I always hear about weapons for secondary troops like this but have there ever been an instance of secondary troops having to defend themselves?
1940 1944
Woah I want one
I love to see a video of the KAR88! I have an Erfurt on the "a" serial number block and is dated 1890. Interestingly it has a mismatch bolt that come from a Ghewer91 also in the "a" serial number block. Do you know a way i can found at who was issued based on the code under the front sight? Thank you for your amazing job!
"A" = Update with deflector
Greetings from Germany hehe!
Guten Tag
@@ControversialOpinion how new are you to the internet gramps? everytime there is a video with someone of one country talking in their language about stuff from another country there are people from that place saying greetings from wherever its not only germans doing it. my question would be why are there so many clueless npc's like you running around?!
Hallo, habe ein guten tag
Magnificent looking rifles.
"people cutting the scabbard off, to sporterize it"... sounds like a ricer car mod 😁
That's what happens/happened often to surplus rifles, after they become obsolete and are sold / given away to civilians practically for free: many people thinking "hey, this would be a nice hunting rifle, if only that stock was a bit better styled, the trigger and trigger guard would be nicer curved, and there would be a aperture sight or a diopter or one of those newfangled Swiss/Japanese gizmos the 'rifle telescope' mounted to it, I'll have a chat with the local gunsmith"
And nobody bothers to think: "Maybe, just maybe, in a handful of decades, or even a century or more, the original rifle would be worth a fortune". Nahh, that'd be crazy for a rusty old gun.
You should try looking at the Kar98k Kriegsmodell
Am I the only one thinks that Gewehr 91 looks freakin' great ?
Should I snag a vc schilling kar 88 that’s been rechambered to 257 roberts? Pawn show was selling for $350. Blueing has definitely faded
A totally unrelated comment. Ian if you are in scandinavia you should go to Sweden. We still compete and do sports shooting with the Swedish 45b 9 mm open bolt submachine gun. This sport is slowly disapearing.. and the guns are definetly forgotten weapons.
What are the legal steps or hurdles involved in owning a full-auto SMG in Sweden?
Handsome wee beasts, aren't they?
I’m curious as to why it was so difficult to produce the carbine version of these rifles and why it took years to produce them, couldn’t they have just used the standard issue long rifle and just shortened the barrel?
Emir Suljagic high powered cartridge in a short carbine equals high recoil
Keep it up
I'm the proud owner of a 1889 dated low cereal number gew 88 and it is almost entirely matcging
That's a very SMLE looking muzzle. All the perfection of Deutsche Waffenfabriken yet the gorgeous looks of the Enfield.
Those are GORGEOUS carabines!!! Don't forget to upload the price they were sold. Just to feel sad about it...
I'm glad you keeping making videos even if RUclips being a Rash head.
I flinch when people say"manlicker"
威震天 why?
@@katjoe1974 Save the political correctness bs. No one here's gonna be left unarmed and marched off to some Democratic Socialist commie gulag for having a sense of humor that's not pussified.
Al Swann ...don’t look now but your ignorance is showing
These carbines show the true spirit of the 21st century. Smokeless.
Don't you mean the 20th?
Everything in this vid is from the 19th century
That's a wicked dent in that barrel, is that thing still fireable?
They have a thin sheet metal barrel shroud that tends to get dented. The barrel itself isn’t visible.
Barrel/sling band is on the wrong side on the Kar 88.
Hey the Marlin 1895 square bolt and marlin 1881 is a bit of forgotten weapons.
Not being able to stack the rifles up neatly just seems like a German problem
The kar88 barrel band is on backward.
Typo in the description: "Both the Kar 88 and Get 91..." It should be "Gew 91" instead. Thanks.
Me for 10 minutes: WHAT IS UP WITH THAT FRONT SWIVEL
You do unknown as well as forgotten weapons. Request for a future video. Noreen BN-36. The Garand of the 21st century.
GlennForbes20 I’ll never understand the point of an AR in 30-06 when there’s so many good ar10s for less and the ammo is cheaper.
To be fair, Ian's done videos on plenty of "dumb" weapons (such as, well, anything from Cobray). They make for good conversation, if nothing else!
UnaSolida
This isn’t a rechambered rifle. Noreen builds big bore AR’s. As to the 30 06 being a dead round, it is very popular for hunting and is readily available.
I don't understand why you say it's the M1 Garand for the 21st century other than the fact that it's a semi auto .30-06. there are many other semi auto .30-06s on the market.
OMG That thing is hilarious! Is any actually dumb enough to spend real money on that thing????
Are these the guns from the latest C&Rsenal episode?
Hey Ian, why is the clock on the forgotten weapons logo set to 9 o’clock? Does it mean anything special?
It's tea time
It looks like a Carcano and a SMLE had a baby
I seen so many of sporterized ones n it makes me sick to think anyone could defile a historical piece even the 98 Mauser
They look like if someone dropped lee-enfield, kar98 and mosin nagant into a boiling cauldron and fused all into one
It is cavalry or mounted infnatry? The way they carry the carbine on their back not the horse's, it s infantry device. Equivakent of airborne infantry today. The horses is a transport like the airplane for 20 century.
Dragoons travel on horseback and fight dismounted whereas light Calvary travels and fights on horseback. That said, this was a time of evolving doctrine and tactics .
You got three types of Mounted troops, Dragoons Move on horseback and fight on foot. Heavy cavalery. those how charge down fleeing enemies, and light cavalery, mounted scouts and raiders.
50 views, 43 likes. Good crowd
The point is that the people on the notification squad are cool people..
as in they liked the video before even watching it.
Liking a forgotten weapons video before you watch it is probably the least risky thing you can do as Ian's content is so consistently good that you can be pretty much 100% sure it's gonna be worth a like.
I always thumbs up Ian's vids before I've watched them.
Your movies are terrible Ryan Gosling
I just bought an 1888 and I need to find ammo for it
Hand loading is your future and slug the bore for safety
Why didn’t they think to just make a better scabbard?
2:48
3:56 cg what?!?!?!
Haenel
I would love to see you guys to read my great great grandfather's book published in 1985 " Die kleine, mühselige Welt des jungen Hermann Enters: Erinnerungen eines Amerika-Auswanderers an das frühindustrielle Wuppertal" It is a standard school text in the Wuppertal region. Just thought this video was fitting due to the time period. Written during the early industrial era of Barmen. Much love from /k/!
Ashley Weeks Wait what
Then i guess im very lucky i found an almost mint ondition Gewehr88 as my grandfathers friend had one and left it to his grandson ,of which im friends with. So i was able to purchase it for just under 500bucks!!! It still has the stacking rod on it!! I love it and it sets very nicely next to my VZ24 my grandfather took off a German Conscript during the war. One of my other relatives got the K98 with all its Nazi glory stamped on it ,and i got the VZ24 lol Which im not so worried im devaluing the rifle ,every time i shoot it! LOL My Cuz may have got the one worth more but he cant shoot it if he wants it to stay that way! HAHAHA!!! Since i purchase the Gewehr88 as such a light price i may shoot it a bit before retiring it to the wall! LOL
There is no Dana, only SUHL.
There is a visible dent in the barrel at 2:33. Would this render the weapon unusable?
That is a dent in the barrel jacket, not the barrel itself. That is common, and not an issue.
Thank you. Not familiar with these and didn't realize it had a jacket.
Wait a minute french ahead?
It's hard to remember that France used to be a military power house.
or the Dutch...from massive colonies into whatever they are now
French still sort of are. Take a look at their deployment to Mali a few years back, as well as their NATO battle groups deployment to Romania (?) a year or two ago.
@@sijul6483 the french were the first to develop smokeless powder and it was their presence that caused the unification of Germany. But the losses from invading Russia, darn near extinguished the noncommissioned officers.
Rudyard Kipling once said of the French that "War _is_ their business."
@@ianfinrir8724 a bit of irony there, it's easier to count the countries that the UK didn't invade.
I think something is wrong with me but I think I want a manllicher stock for an AR15.
I hate that people sporterize thier old military firearms. They function just fine, maybe even better without being bastardized.
The amount of sporterized Winchester model 1917's is infuriating. The untouched ones are too expensive now because of this.
Looks like Lee Anfield
I've always believed that a sword/saber and a pistol with 7-8 round capacity would have been more than enough for a cavalryman's personal defense back in those days. No real need for carbines or rifles, in my view.
Costantino Andruzzi then why did the cavalry ask for carbines?
Read " Mosby's Men," written by a vet of the 43rd Battalion, Virginia Cavalry during the War of the Rebellion. He specifically laments their lack of carbines and success when facing prepared Federal infantry formed in ranks.
@@alswann2702 As a Virginian with family having fought in the civil war, never I heard the civil war be called that