Wake turbulence is no joke. Wanna know what it's like? It isn't just a disruption of flight it's also a sound...bang, a shudder followed by a rapid wing lift. It happened to me in a Cirrus SR22T on approach to KLAS, McCarran in Vegas. The bang was a mystery, but the wing lift to 70degree bank was not and it was no fun. As I struggled to right the aircraft the controller complained that I made a turn on approach without a clearance.....I quickly responded that it was due to wake turbulence. She said "next time ask for permission" I responded there will not be a next time. Ya gotta give the big jets a TON of spacing, and push back against the controllers when they complain you refuse to follow in close.
Some controllers are boneheads. The vast majority are consummate professionals, but it shouldn’t be surprising that the one controller that routed a small plane too in to an airliner’s wake will be the same one that complains when you’re nearly knocked out of the sky by it.
Great visual of wingtip vortices. While I have seen many of those in the past, your example shows something rarely seen in the field....lift! Watch the smoke that is above the wings as you pass through, note how it jumps up slightly for an instant then is violently snatched out of the sky and thrown down. Also note how far above the wings smoke is pulled down, the 6:30 mark is a fine example. All of these actions come together form the whole of an aircraft's total wake and gives you an idea of just how much the air is disturbed by even a small aircraft passing through it, but being able to see them all is quite fascinating. A very educational video!
I’m lucky enough to frequently fly into Sydney international. Using runways 34, on a stable day, you can see the wake TURB, from the preceding aircraft, churning up the (otherwise glassy smooth) Botany Bay. It’s the best visual indicator of wake TURB that I’ve ever seen.
I love your videos! I started watching them when I first started my initial flight training. You motivated me to start my own RUclips channel. I still watch your videos in preping for my instrument rating. I really enjoy videos like this that help visual learners like me.
John, you have the best freely shared aviation learning videos out there. This was the first I've ever seen small aircraft turbulence shown visually. Seeing this, it's easy to scale up in one's mind magnitudes larger turbulence present with high-lift aircraft. Nice analogy with the boat wake. Great editing and video work. I saw someone on the ground I assume contributed to this production. Whoever that was thank you too!
Wingtip vortices are for real and scary. I experienced it at a fly in when I was a GREEN rookie pilot, and it doesn't have to be a 737.....a DC-3 or Ford T-motor can do a number on your light aircraft, as well.
Stunning capture! May I feature this wake turbulence demonstration in one of my next episodes? Of course with a link back to your original video. Cheers!
Really informative and never gave much thought to wake turbulence before watching your video .. amazing demonstration of the wake though with the smoke
This is an amazing demonstration of wake turbulence. I have always had the desire to be a pilot since I can remember. I have worked in aviation with the USAF for the last 11 years as a loadmaster, but I have never had wake turbulence explained in this detail before, and I have done an online ground school for a PPL. Keep up the awesome work I have subscribed and will be looking into your PPL course as well.
Great lesson! I got caught by wake turblence during one of my first solos. I was on final in a Cessna 150, and there was a Beech Baron landing before me. My Cessna's wings started moving rapidly up and down. I was able to quickly bring it back under control, but it was very unnerving, indeed, and could have had a different outcome, had the aircraft in front of me been bigger (it was not uncommon for ATR 42s to fly in and out of that airfield, as well as business jets).
Great video! You, and the FAA don't go into another scenario: Trying to takeoff in a light aircraft, with a heavy landing. When I discuss this on BFRs, or training. ninety nine out of a hundred times all I get is blank looks! The simple answer is DON"T GO!!! The wake is descending where you are trying to climb! Also, my worst wake turbulence encounter was between me doing a scenic in a C172 and PA24 Piper Commanche! Calm beautiful evening. I started my takeoff roll at a non towered airport (KFIT) as soon as the PA24 broke ground, and coming through approximately fifty feet AGL there was an uncommanded roll to the right that was not stoppable with full left aileron an rudder! The aircraft rolled to fifty degrees and pitched up thirty degrees! As you video shows, and as we should teach, wake turbulence can be a problem between ANY two aircraft, including helicopters (rotary wing)! Keep up the great work!!!
Excellent video! *Notice VELOCITY of rotation @core of vortex, exponentially faster progressing to core.. like a skinny tornado..I have been shocked when flying RC planes through their own wake in dead calm air..I'm talking about a 3 pound foam Bushplane RC MODEL brought around 270° & back down to pass through the Vx climbout path .. as model passed through it rolled subtly as it looked like it had hit a speed bump..realized afterwards what happened! Can only imagine twin tornadoes coming off higher wing loading planes🤯🤢..stay safe, especially behind reverse thrust turboprops too!
Back in 2006 when I was going through initial flight training, I had my CFI fly me right through the wake turbulence of a P-3 Orion, taking off out of PHNL. He looked at me and said “WTF was that!?!?”…. He had no idea what had happened. It was a less than ideal experience. He was on the controls, and me being so new I didn’t say anything because I figured he was a better judge of when it was safe. I was wrong.
Two brains in the cockpit are usually better than one! A good example of why open communication is important in flight training, even when just starting out.
If the controller clears you to take off or land with a 2min separation behind a 737, and you are in a queue of aircraft, what would you given your suggestion to wait at least 5 minutes? Is the suggestion to reply 'unable' and then be pushed to the back of the queue? I love the video- it's very rational and makes a lot of sense. When it comes to a real world scenario it's not as simple as using a blanket 5 min rule. Simple pressures such as in a situation like above is enough to make most pilots ignore their own 'rules'.
I once got rolled about 120 degrees by following too close behind a C-119 Boxcar on a long final approach. It was easier to just keep rolling and complete the 360 than to fight it. Pretty scary in a Cessna 207!
Just imagine the effect if you could have gotten an A380 to fly through that campfire smoke. Of course all we would have heard is; "Sinkrate! -- Terrain! -- Pull Up! -- Glide Slope! -- Speed! -- yata-yata-yata 🤣
Hey John good to see you. Coincidentally I just watched a case study where a commercial airplane flew into another's wake turbulence and I used the rudder exaggeratedly and the tail fell apart. They all died. AA was training their pilots to do that at that time . They changed their training since . Thank you for making me see that in a Cessna we should wait a few minutes.
The NTSB report of that crash: reports.aviation-safety.net/2001/20011112-0_A306_N14053.pdf If they hadn't touched the controls at all they would have been fine.
That might be one of the worst accident reports NTSB has ever issued. They put all the blame on the first officer for stomping on the rudder excessively, which he did, but they never mentioned the lousy rudder control system on the A300 which practically guaranteed it would be abused, nor the structural weakness of the empennage which could not handle such abuse. No Airbus pilot at the time knew that too much rudder input could snap the vertical stab off at its mounts. Airbus knew of the structural limitations of their design, but they hadn’t communicated them to the airlines, and there was no way for the crew to know if those limits were being exceeded. These problems were partially, and quietly, addressed by ADs later on down the line. I work on the A300 for a living, and ours have two big red lights on the glareshield, one in front of each pilot’s face, that say “STOP RUDDER INPUTS”. They are connected to an accelerometer in the tail and are designed to light up to warn the pilot that he’s about to cause serious structural damage to the airplane.
@@singleproppilot thanks for your response. They definitely placed the blame more on the pilot and AA training than the rudder control system. It is unfortunate that so many innocent people died.
What if your at a busy airport in a small airplane and a airliner just took off ahead of you. Is there anything you can say to a controller to give you a few extra minutes? Do they do that automatically?
I am now more curious about how that aircraft was able to climb back up after being that low and having obstacle right in front of it. Someone show me the entire video.
I assume airplanes with winglets generate less tip-vortices and more pure downforce? Also, sometimes we have Seahawk helicopters do low approaches down the runway. I wonder if the fore and aft downwash has the effect of destabilizing the air and thus helping to dissipate the side roter vortices (don't want to test this theory!!!)
Great video. Why this does not apply when you are lining up to land (final) behind another aircraft. Normally they have only one minute interval in Hithru airport.
On my recent commercial flight in a 737, we took off immediately after a 777. I was surprised we didn't wait at least a couple of minutes. I felt no turbulence at all. I guess this was because we took off before their point of rotation.
Great video! Looked like fun....so you forgot to tell us what we are supposed to say to the tower that just cleared you for take off that you want to wait 5 minutes for wake turbulence with an A320 up your #&%#.LOL Happened to me in the Cirrus
If you have traffic behind you, you can just tell them the exact same thing, and they will likely say "fine, taxi onto rwy XX, right turn at taxiway XX, and then back to the holdshort line"
FLY8MA.com Flight Training thanks for the response! I’ll try that next time. I fly into larger airports and without fail end up between passenger jets. Just my luck!!
@@nickmorrone5845 That is a good question Nick. Lot of peer pressure from 150 of your new best friends right behind you wondering why you are holding them up...tempting to compromise safety and just get going. Good advice on sticking to your gut and asking for a ground go-around :)
At some airports, if you want to wait 3-5 minutes, you would never depart or maybe at 3 am. It's like saying that the best policy to never be involved in an accident is to never fly. That's not sustainable. That's why I would prefer to hear practical considerations based on research and facts rather than just throwing random ideas that simply wait 5 minutes and you will be good. No need to watch videos to come to such a conclusion. As a pilot, I need more solid knowledge than that. Very disappointed with this video.
Keep your 172 out of bravo airports during busy times....plan ahead and go to a different airport, or coordinate with atc to arrive or depart when there is a lull in traffic (i.e. Tampa or Huston) The practical solution to bringing a 172 into JFK is simply don't do it.
Wake turbulence is no joke. Wanna know what it's like? It isn't just a disruption of flight it's also a sound...bang, a shudder followed by a rapid wing lift. It happened to me in a Cirrus SR22T on approach to KLAS, McCarran in Vegas. The bang was a mystery, but the wing lift to 70degree bank was not and it was no fun. As I struggled to right the aircraft the controller complained that I made a turn on approach without a clearance.....I quickly responded that it was due to wake turbulence. She said "next time ask for permission" I responded there will not be a next time. Ya gotta give the big jets a TON of spacing, and push back against the controllers when they complain you refuse to follow in close.
Spee, thanks for your sharing! A great learning experience for the rest of us.
Some controllers are boneheads. The vast majority are consummate professionals, but it shouldn’t be surprising that the one controller that routed a small plane too in to an airliner’s wake will be the same one that complains when you’re nearly knocked out of the sky by it.
Great visual of wingtip vortices. While I have seen many of those in the past, your example shows something rarely seen in the field....lift! Watch the smoke that is above the wings as you pass through, note how it jumps up slightly for an instant then is violently snatched out of the sky and thrown down. Also note how far above the wings smoke is pulled down, the 6:30 mark is a fine example. All of these actions come together form the whole of an aircraft's total wake and gives you an idea of just how much the air is disturbed by even a small aircraft passing through it, but being able to see them all is quite fascinating. A very educational video!
Yeah that's what I noticed, too, more so than the wake :0
Poor man's wake turbulence demonstrator. That looks cool. Would be interesting to see what happens if you flew a tiny drone through the turbulence
Can't imagine a richer scenario. A free man flying in a beautiful landscape. Cold beer and a beautiful woman and heaven has nothing more to offer.
Does it tho
@@normannutbar424 ya, they really don't care about this sort of stuff...this is here to help students, and perfectly legal
My son is starting flying lessons so I showed him this video.
This is an excellent demonstration of wake turbulence. Thanks John!!!!
That was a great demonstration of wake turbulence. Best I've ever seen, actually.
Nice job explaining wake Turbulence. 👍🏼
This was really well done. This length and directness to the point in addition to the visuals make it pop.
The smoke demonstration was incredibly helpful! Thank you!
You're very welcome!
I’m lucky enough to frequently fly into Sydney international. Using runways 34, on a stable day, you can see the wake TURB, from the preceding aircraft, churning up the (otherwise glassy smooth) Botany Bay. It’s the best visual indicator of wake TURB that I’ve ever seen.
I have nothing at all to do with flying but this made perfect sense!
I love your videos! I started watching them when I first started my initial flight training. You motivated me to start my own RUclips channel. I still watch your videos in preping for my instrument rating. I really enjoy videos like this that help visual learners like me.
Jon, your videos are by far the best educational videos online. Thank you for all your work to keep us safe and educate us.
John, you have the best freely shared aviation learning videos out there. This was the first I've ever seen small aircraft turbulence shown visually. Seeing this, it's easy to scale up in one's mind magnitudes larger turbulence present with high-lift aircraft. Nice analogy with the boat wake. Great editing and video work. I saw someone on the ground I assume contributed to this production. Whoever that was thank you too!
Been flying since '87. This was great. You explained as just as well as the FAA Wings program did back then. But your visuals were MUCH better!
Wingtip vortices are for real and scary. I experienced it at a fly in when I was a GREEN rookie pilot, and it doesn't have to be a 737.....a DC-3 or Ford T-motor can do a number on your light aircraft, as well.
Well explained. Thanks!
Great info. And example utilizing smoke. Loved this John.
Stunning capture! May I feature this wake turbulence demonstration in one of my next episodes? Of course with a link back to your original video. Cheers!
Feel free to use this as long as the link is included in the first line of the description. Cheers!
Really informative and never gave much thought to wake turbulence before watching your video .. amazing demonstration of the wake though with the smoke
Cool video. Great idea with the smoke. Looked great.
Great explanation about wake turbulence! Awesome job with the visuals!!!
Glad it helps!
Very creative way of displaying wake turbulence!
Glad it helps! Share it around!
This is an amazing demonstration of wake turbulence. I have always had the desire to be a pilot since I can remember. I have worked in aviation with the USAF for the last 11 years as a loadmaster, but I have never had wake turbulence explained in this detail before, and I have done an online ground school for a PPL. Keep up the awesome work I have subscribed and will be looking into your PPL course as well.
Great job on the smoke example! Wow!!
Glad you liked it!
Fantastic video!!! Very well explained.
What a great example! Thanks Jon!
That smoke demonstration is perfect! Awesome job guys!
4:15 That is the most instructive graphic of wake turbulence I've ever seen, beating out any FAA handbook.
Thanks! Share it around 👍
Great lesson! I got caught by wake turblence during one of my first solos. I was on final in a Cessna 150, and there was a Beech Baron landing before me. My Cessna's wings started moving rapidly up and down. I was able to quickly bring it back under control, but it was very unnerving, indeed, and could have had a different outcome, had the aircraft in front of me been bigger (it was not uncommon for ATR 42s to fly in and out of that airfield, as well as business jets).
That practical demonstration was excellent.
Another great video, thank you! Beautiful vortices!
Great video! You, and the FAA don't go into another scenario: Trying to takeoff in a light aircraft, with a heavy landing. When I discuss this on BFRs, or training. ninety nine out of a hundred times all I get is blank looks! The simple answer is DON"T GO!!! The wake is descending where you are trying to climb!
Also, my worst wake turbulence encounter was between me doing a scenic in a C172 and PA24 Piper Commanche! Calm beautiful evening. I started my takeoff roll at a non towered airport (KFIT) as soon as the PA24 broke ground, and coming through approximately fifty feet AGL there was an uncommanded roll to the right that was not stoppable with full left aileron an rudder! The aircraft rolled to fifty degrees and pitched up thirty degrees! As you video shows, and as we should teach, wake turbulence can be a problem between ANY two aircraft, including helicopters (rotary wing)!
Keep up the great work!!!
That was a really cool demo flying through the campfire smoke.. clearly shows the wake and looks so cool.
Awesome video! thanks for the great explanation!
Blue Skies folks!!!
Glad you enjoyed it
You got some great footage! Good explanations too thank you.
Excellent video! *Notice VELOCITY of rotation @core of vortex, exponentially faster progressing to core.. like a skinny tornado..I have been shocked when flying RC planes through their own wake in dead calm air..I'm talking about a 3 pound foam Bushplane RC MODEL brought around 270° & back down to pass through the Vx climbout path .. as model passed through it rolled subtly as it looked like it had hit a speed bump..realized afterwards what happened! Can only imagine twin tornadoes coming off higher wing loading planes🤯🤢..stay safe, especially behind reverse thrust turboprops too!
Very instructive! Thanks for sharing!
Glad it was helpful!
Great job
Back in 2006 when I was going through initial flight training, I had my CFI fly me right through the wake turbulence of a P-3 Orion, taking off out of PHNL. He looked at me and said “WTF was that!?!?”…. He had no idea what had happened. It was a less than ideal experience. He was on the controls, and me being so new I didn’t say anything because I figured he was a better judge of when it was safe. I was wrong.
Two brains in the cockpit are usually better than one! A good example of why open communication is important in flight training, even when just starting out.
Superb lesson!!!! Thank you for doing this!
If the controller clears you to take off or land with a 2min separation behind a 737, and you are in a queue of aircraft, what would you given your suggestion to wait at least 5 minutes? Is the suggestion to reply 'unable' and then be pushed to the back of the queue?
I love the video- it's very rational and makes a lot of sense. When it comes to a real world scenario it's not as simple as using a blanket 5 min rule. Simple pressures such as in a situation like above is enough to make most pilots ignore their own 'rules'.
Watch out for helicopter generated turbulence also!
Perfect explanation 😎✈️
It's amazing just how fast the center of that vortex is spinning.
I once got rolled about 120 degrees by following too close behind a C-119 Boxcar on a long final approach. It was easier to just keep rolling and complete the 360 than to fight it. Pretty scary in a Cessna 207!
Just imagine the effect if you could have gotten an A380 to fly through that campfire smoke. Of course all we would have heard is; "Sinkrate! -- Terrain! -- Pull Up! -- Glide Slope! -- Speed! -- yata-yata-yata 🤣
Would have been really cool to fly a sturdy model airplane through your smoke wake to demonstrate.
Great visual!!
excellent demo!
Glad it helps!
Nice explanation. Would be interesting to see a visual on how it affects formation flight.
Look up the video of the crash of the XB-70. The wake of bomber pulled the F-104 into it and fatally damaged both....
Awesome demonstration thanks for sharing the awesome video
Excellent video Jon.
Great demonstration. Thank you.
Sure thing! Share it around with others!
That was an awesome demonstration
Wow! May I feature this turbulence clip in an upcoming video? I'll be sure to provide a link for viewers to return to your video. Cheers!
Once we see some content we can discuss
Amazing video, it was really informational
Hey John good to see you. Coincidentally I just watched a case study where a commercial airplane flew into another's wake turbulence and I used the rudder exaggeratedly and the tail fell apart. They all died. AA was training their pilots to do that at that time . They changed their training since . Thank you for making me see that in a Cessna we should wait a few minutes.
The NTSB report of that crash: reports.aviation-safety.net/2001/20011112-0_A306_N14053.pdf
If they hadn't touched the controls at all they would have been fine.
That might be one of the worst accident reports NTSB has ever issued. They put all the blame on the first officer for stomping on the rudder excessively, which he did, but they never mentioned the lousy rudder control system on the A300 which practically guaranteed it would be abused, nor the structural weakness of the empennage which could not handle such abuse. No Airbus pilot at the time knew that too much rudder input could snap the vertical stab off at its mounts. Airbus knew of the structural limitations of their design, but they hadn’t communicated them to the airlines, and there was no way for the crew to know if those limits were being exceeded. These problems were partially, and quietly, addressed by ADs later on down the line. I work on the A300 for a living, and ours have two big red lights on the glareshield, one in front of each pilot’s face, that say “STOP RUDDER INPUTS”. They are connected to an accelerometer in the tail and are designed to light up to warn the pilot that he’s about to cause serious structural damage to the airplane.
@@singleproppilot thanks for your response. They definitely placed the blame more on the pilot and AA training than the rudder control system. It is unfortunate that so many innocent people died.
Jon for FAA Master Pilot
What if your at a busy airport in a small airplane and a airliner just took off ahead of you. Is there anything you can say to a controller to give you a few extra minutes? Do they do that automatically?
I am now more curious about how that aircraft was able to climb back up after being that low and having obstacle right in front of it. Someone show me the entire video.
Great video. Thanks
I feel i saw you as my neighbor in a motor home at Oshkosh 2019? I think it was 2019
Probably 😃
I assume airplanes with winglets generate less tip-vortices and more pure downforce? Also, sometimes we have Seahawk helicopters do low approaches down the runway. I wonder if the fore and aft downwash has the effect of destabilizing the air and thus helping to dissipate the side roter vortices (don't want to test this theory!!!)
Great video. Why this does not apply when you are lining up to land (final) behind another aircraft. Normally they have only one minute interval in Hithru airport.
Great video
Hello, would it be ok to use a 15-20 second clip of this video with credit and link-back to your channel? Thanks in advance.
You can log few IMC for passing through the smoke. 😂
Wake turbulence off a heavy can be strong enough to roll a DC-9 over: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_Air_Lines_Flight_9570
On my recent commercial flight in a 737, we took off immediately after a 777. I was surprised we didn't wait at least a couple of minutes. I felt no turbulence at all. I guess this was because we took off before their point of rotation.
Great video! Looked like fun....so you forgot to tell us what we are supposed to say to the tower that just cleared you for take off that you want to wait 5 minutes for wake turbulence with an A320 up your #&%#.LOL Happened to me in the Cirrus
If you have traffic behind you, you can just tell them the exact same thing, and they will likely say "fine, taxi onto rwy XX, right turn at taxiway XX, and then back to the holdshort line"
FLY8MA.com Flight Training thanks for the response! I’ll try that next time. I fly into larger airports and without fail end up between passenger jets. Just my luck!!
@@nickmorrone5845 That is a good question Nick. Lot of peer pressure from 150 of your new best friends right behind you wondering why you are holding them up...tempting to compromise safety and just get going. Good advice on sticking to your gut and asking for a ground go-around :)
@@hudsoncraftworks Hi Brian. An all too often fact of life when you fly in and out of larger airports... !! Ps. Just subscribed to your channel
Thank goodness this doesn't apply to part 103 aircraft.
what if you're flying around other 103's or lsa's ? or is that wake to small to matter ?
At some airports, if you want to wait 3-5 minutes, you would never depart or maybe at 3 am. It's like saying that the best policy to never be involved in an accident is to never fly. That's not sustainable. That's why I would prefer to hear practical considerations based on research and facts rather than just throwing random ideas that simply wait 5 minutes and you will be good. No need to watch videos to come to such a conclusion. As a pilot, I need more solid knowledge than that. Very disappointed with this video.
Keep your 172 out of bravo airports during busy times....plan ahead and go to a different airport, or coordinate with atc to arrive or depart when there is a lull in traffic (i.e. Tampa or Huston) The practical solution to bringing a 172 into JFK is simply don't do it.
1st
"Bad sound makes good video look bad."
Are you vegetarian? How do you stay so slim, don't you like cake?