I train Japanese jiu-jitsu, and it's quite amazing how identical these techniques are to it. A lot of them are pretty much exactly the same, and some feature slight variations, but everything is something you could expect to see in a jiu-jitsu dojo. Impressive how, when something works, it gets invented and reinvented all over the world. Also, it's quite badass how you train on a wooden floor.
@@DarkestdaysAUthat and probably an even bigger reason is Armor, both groups have big and tough armor so it makes sense they would develop similar styles of Wrestling as it becomes a really important aspect of War.
Training brazilian jiu jitsu has really opened my eyes to the art of grappling. Being a history freak, my love for the history of all styles of grappling amongst all cultures has grown. Outstanding!
I think it's fascinating how wrestling has not changed all that much over the centuries. As an American folk style/collegiate wrestler, I recognize all the techniques, just by different name and small minute differences in the technique. I recommend to watch freestyle Olympic wrestling. Sure, there's rules that couldn't have existed in the Middle Ages, but still fascinating to see the techniques that have changed very little.
@@chroma6947 that’s very minor when you look at fighting. Height doesn’t matter in this instance since everyone has gotten taller and I imagine fighters were as healthy then as now. It’s not like we grew a third arm or something
the human body is universal in every martial art. the moves in Talhoffer are the same as many judo and Akido throws. also these are only a small sample that was written down. many of the more basic throws and holds were assumed to be understood. i think the outcome would be the same as any wrestling match,
I practice Gracie Jujitsu and have been learning submission wrestling (Based on Free Style wrestling) I've seen the manules they saved from a long time ago, and pretty much every technique I've seen was a text book Jujitsu move, the Samurai used the same exact moves. We all have the same body, and there's only so many ways our body bends (and doesn't bend) there's only so many effective ways to use your body to throw, grapple etc. Grappling is VERY similar in every culture.
Even though this comment is from 4 years ago, and you'll probably never read my reply, I'll write it anyways. It's the same with with swords. I practice HEMA of the Lichtenauer tradition, and there are many similarities between European longswords and Japanese katana (In fighting techniques), and in the end most of these sword style are about how to get a sharp, pointy thing into someone while not getting hurt. I mean, most humans are built the same way and have the same movements, so usually there would be a lot of similarities. It's pretty cool, huh? :D How many mostly isolated cultures can have so many similarities in terms of fighting, right? :D
@@boring5718 Ive sadly only tried one HEMA class (not enough time and money to do both), but I was pleasantly surprised by how well my reflexes from FMA translated to their principles for dagger, bastard sword (we only use short swords such as barongs, machetes and bolos) and spear (which I had never worked with before). I had my suspicions, given how teacher goes on about "any weapon based system will be working along similar ideas". But it was still a cool eye opener. Even down to the same principles of stringing together attack angles.
Propably because it is judo. The manuals show only a moment of the movement, not the entire technique, and the rest must have been complemented from judo and bjj.
rryuan I've a theory that the sport of grappling has not changed significantly since the dawn of the first grapplers. Sure, there are new rules but the core techniques and situations grapplers find themselves in are very much the same
@@ChamorruWarrior To be fair, if we still carried swords, knives and axes in day-to-day life, I doubt pure submission grappling styles would be very popular.
This is some of the coolest shit I've seen. Both of the people doing these techniques looked really knowledgeable. My mind is blown with some of those counter techniques.
A lot of the techniques wouldn't work without a cooperating opponent I'm sure, this is more just to recreate the technique as closely to the manual as possible.
@@clutchingdaggerz359 ??? many of these are perfectly recognizable from judo and wrestling. They're just not executing at pace and with resistance. That standing armlock stuff is dicey I grant you, but I promise you guillotines and hip throws are real things.
@@Mulligatawney I think the standing armbar is more intended as a break than as a lock. There is similar stuff done in dumog (the grappling component of Filipino Martial Arts), and in many Silat styles. Where the goal is to simply dump the person on the surface, stomp/stab whatever is within reach, explosively rip up a limb and immediately move on to the next task at hand. From the perspective of a submission grappler, it is too sloppy to be acceptable. But in the context of armed combat it makes more sense. Since you dont want to strive for the ground when weapons and/or multiple opponents are in the mix.
@@clutchingdaggerz359 From what I've seen, HEMA practioners do a lot of force on force training with actively resisting opponents. I'm guessing the people in the video do the same.
It's not surprising, really - human bodies are the same the world over, so techniques that work in one place work in others. One thing I do admire about Ringen over Judo though is that it doesn't rely on a lapel or (usually) any clothing at all for its techniques, making it a bit more practical for self defence. I'd love to find a school near me.
While your example #2 is a good throw and a good technique, I'm not sure if it is the one that Talhoffer intended. In my copy of the book (Rector's translation), that technique is plate 204, which reads "The wrestler on the far left steps behind his opponent to throw him." If you look at the illustration, he is stepping behind with his right leg and putting it behind his opponent's thigh, with his left leg back. Your version of the throw involves stepping forward with the left leg and then using the right leg to reap his legs from under him, as in o soto gari from Judo. I think (this is only my interpretation based off of the picture and text in the book that I have, of course!) that the throw involves stepping behind your opponent with the right leg, and then pivoting the opponent down using the grip on the arm and shoulder, more akin to a hip throw.
As for my experience, I am a 1st degree black belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and I teach it for a living. I am also actively involed in MMA as a coach and training partner for professional fighters. I don't have any video's up or books pubished yet, but it I am working on it. It's great that you are doing Greco. Greco is a great start to interpreting the old Ringen. German ringen is close to a fine mix of Judo, Freestyle wrestling and Greco, with some joint locks from Jiu-Jitsu thrown in.
Just thought I'd point out what some of these throws are called in Judo :) not necessarily an accurate list, but plausible. 2. O-soto otoshi to waki-gatame 4. O-goshi 5. Kata-guruma 6. Te-guruma 7. Sumi-gaeshi 8. Te-guruma again 9. Te-guruma again 11. Ude-garami 12. Koshi-guruma 14. Tani-otoshi 15. O-goshi/(maybe) Uki-goshi 17. Ura-nage and ushiro-goshi 18. Tomoe nagi 19. Ushiro-goshi 20. Sukui-nage and what could be uchi mata sukashi
this is a great, great video. simply amazing. one thing though, at 2:25 in that "guillotine" choke, you don't have to remove your arm from under his armpit to sink the choke, in fact keeping your arm there while you tighten the choke immobilizes his arm and makes it harder for him to defend against it. otherwise, i am extraordinarily impressed by this video. i've seen ringen videos, but most are so static and rigid, you really show some great fluid moment like you'd see in a bout.
@@Kynos1 For the most part, yes absolutely. Especially in armed hand-to-hand. However, there are some modern SOF guys who train extensively in MMA and the like in their off-time that would potentially be a toss-up against a 15th century knightly man-at-arms in unarmed combat.
Safton Sure, but I'd still put my money on the knight. These guys were trained to fight and kill from a very early age and the daily handling of armor and weapons would have made themvery strong. I assume they had muscles more comparable to a "powerlifter" than a bodybuilder.
@yelunatic nr. 21 is the plate i am least sure about. There is indeed no counter metioned; the text only says verkert wurf - inverted throw. Taking in consideration the position of the wrestlers in the image i interpretated it as a counter to a schrenken throw. But if you have any alternative ideas I would be most interested to hear them. There is also a verkert wurf mentioned in the 1467 manuscript, but I can't quite make it out either.
@ShayRoberts Thanks Shay! No, we don't wear any additional defence under the gambesons, but usually we train our ringen on mats in T-shirts. And we too think everybody should train on mats in order to avoid injuries. We did this directly on the floor just for video purposes. But we very often train the falling on gym floor too.
The difference that I notice the most often is that all of the WMA throws and chokes can be done outside of a Gi, whereas Judo and Jiujitsu are very sportified and many of the techniques just assume you have clothing on, and further that it is strong enough to withstand the torque of a throw.
I hafta hold back on these when im sparring, Im a huuuuuuge guy (over 300lbs) and the weight i drop can cause breaks so easily. But ive been a practioner for years and i love it. Hood job guys
@yelunatic when you talk about 1/2 hip vs full hip do you mean, to use judo terminology, something like the difference beetwen uki goshi and o goshi? About landing on elbows in nr. 4 - this is indeed what the text says, but someone skilled in falling will always naturally roll forward in the direction of the throw rather than fall face first to the ground. I have found that bringing the hip in fully gives me more power and stability in the throw so that is how i performed it.
@yelunatic hey man, appreciate the criticism. Agree on the importance of training other arts. I am the wrestler in the white gambeson and as far as cross training goes i also do greco roman wrestling. Currently i am focused on getting good and competing in greco so sadly i do not have the time to also do judo. Alot of ringen techniques are similar to judo, especially with all the grabs at the jacket, so i will definately look into it in the future.
@MrHenryMason the text for nr.15 in the 1459 version states: Das Achselbrechen. Now i have a hard time imagining a shoulder break from that particular hold. If we look in the 1467 version there are 2 similiar techniques. One si referred to as Oberhuftringen and the other as Achselringen. Paulus Kal also has a similiar throw, he calls it Huftringen uber die achsel. So that is why I interpretated technique nr.15 as a hip throw.
@kaindrg fuhlen is a concept in longsword fencing about feeling your oppononet's intentions in the bind and reacting to them. It does not appear in any wrestling text that I am aware of. Of course feeling what your opponent is doing so you can use the appropriate technique is also very important in wrestling. In this way you can translate the concept from longsword to wrestling. But as far as the original sources are concerned the term fuhlen is used specifically in the context of sword bind.
I would add that I think that the technique at 2.08 is Auerswald's short hip, or tai otoshi, rather than a hip throw. I say interpret it that way because the foot and hand positions in Talhoffer are identical to Auerswald and the text to that manual does not describe a hip throw but one across the leg. The grip and foot positions are also identical to those in Hackenscmidt's 1909 catch wrestlng book, "Complete Science of Wrestling," at 34, where he says the throw is not done over the hips.
I strongly believe that anyone interpreting or reconstructing ringen seriously, should have a background or familiarity in all of those arts. Good luck and keep training!
@yelunatic also one more thing. It would be really helpful if you could be more specific and expand about what you didn't like and what you think is wrong, so we can then improve those techniques. Thanks for noting nr. 14, i will work on that throw. If you don't mind i would also ask what art do you have a backrogund in and if you have any material published on the web like videos or a website. It is always a pleasure to see ringen techniques performed by skilled grapplers. Have a good day.
I've found that this is kind of a silly question. Since all of the arts you mentioned are just based on body mechanics and leverage, they are roughly the same, though some focus more on one than than another, such as Judo's pure throwing focus. There are throws, takedowns, etc. in BJJ just like there are in Aikido and Ringen. The only REAL difference seems to be the costume worn and the training methodology. My two cents. I look for the universality rather than the differences.
@yelunatic you are completely right about nr. 7. The text mentions only the grip. I added the throw to make it more interesting. I don't think there's anything wrong with that :). Also in nr. 23 there is no throw mentioned either. It only says "grab his hair and he will let go". But on video it looks much more interetsting with a throw :).
what i meant by "don't have to remove your arm from his armpit" is that you can grab the wrist of the arm choking from underneath his armpit, immobilizing his arm. i don't know if i worded it clearly. at 2:37 you have your right arm under his armpit and your left choking. you don't have to bring your arm out from under his arm, you can reach over the back of the shoulder and under the armpit the other way to get a safer choke. i don't think i worded it well the first time.
#7 in the artwork shows an over back/around the shoulder grip with the opponent's head on the inside, and there is NO throw mentioned. You show a sacrifice throw with the head on the outside known in judo as "Hikikomi-Gaeshi." Your counter is correct, and is known as "Te-Garuma" in judo. Notice the opponents head is now on the outside, which leaeds to the conclusion that the person being outgripped in #7 may have ducked under in order to do the throw.
@kaindrg I think so. It means feeling the pressure of the opponent's blade on your blade in the bind. One has to feel if the pressure is strong or not and react in appropriate way.
Hi.About the hip techniques, I disagree with "here Talhoffer doesn't make any difference and calls them simply huftringen, so i don't think it matters that much." Half-hip and full hip techniques change the dynamics of the throw. For instance, #4 is clearly a 1/4 or 1/2 hip throw and it states in talhoffer's text that the opponent lands on "upon his elbows," or face first. A shallow hip throw will often bring the opponent into a 4 pont stance or on his elbows as Talhoffer describes.
I would like to see someone use these methods against someone using Judo, Jujitsu, or some other Asian fighting style. It would be interesting to see the outcome. This is not to say any style is better then the other, it is just it would be interesting to see how it would work if it was mixed up.
@MrHenryMason hello, first - thanks for the compliment. In regards to nr. 12 the manual actually says: ''Das hinder tretten''. The text you posted is from the 1467 edition. But I do think you bring up a good point and the throw can also be performed the way you describe. I am not quite sure what you mean with the comment on nr. 15 thoguh.
@yelunatic I don't belive in trying to exactly mimic the artwork as it is not photos. For example, you are shown multiple times to interlock your fingers in various grips. That is never a good idea. I think extrapolating is not bad but even necessary, but ok, there are many approaches to HEMA. About the hip throws, here Talhoffer doesn't make any difference and calls them simply huftringen, so i don't think it matters that much.
that would depend on the arm lock. If you were attacking the elbow like a BJJ arm bar merely moving your rotating your thumb inside will prevent most finishes.
As the other guy said, depends on the armlocks. Some have to be countered by a kick twist of your elbow/thumb. Others can be countered by tackling (is that spelled right?) your opponent in a certain way. Others have certain specific counterlocks wich can end in you having control over your oponents arm.
@kaindrg Hi! The "old" members of our group train fühlen too, but most of our members are beginners, so we didn't do fühlen drills till now. First they must learn the basics, fühlen comes later. But we intend to begin with sistematic fühlen classes after the summer break.
Like many others, I love how similar it is to other arts. I also want to give props for falling on the hard floor throughout the whole video hahaahha. Good skills on both ends.
Can't say about some other Asian fighting styles but as you can see there are many judo style throws in German ringen and the locks we use are pretty much the same as in jijitstu.
Sweet demo. I can draw parallells to Dumog (the grappling aspect of Filipino Martial Arts), Senegalese Wrestling and I would like to say some hints of Judo (although Im sadly not very knowledgeable there). As the saying goes "there are only so many ways to skin a cat". :-) * subscribed *
I believe it is true that there are various similarities in the techniques and as I understand it both the hip and shoulder throw are often found in martial styles in both Western and Eastern countries. All the same if such a match were to take place then the similarities as well as the differences might be better shown. All in all it would be a remarkable match.
Is this something anyone can do or do you need to be really strong to be able to do these moves? It's hard to tell if this is all leverage and balance or if you need some considerable strength to be able to throw someone like you are doing.
Most of the moves can be done by anyone without using much strength. Some of the throws where they pick someone up, like the throw done at 1:03, will require you to be strong enough to lift the other person, but can be modified a bit to work without lifting the other. However, being strong will help you with all these techniques.
If you are reasonably athletic any of these are possible with some one your size or a bit smaller. Minus the rear bear hug one. Try that on any decent wrestler and you will get tossed on your head.
@yelunatic quite an impressive background you have there. I didn't know there were any bjj black belts into HEMA. Do you maybe visit or teach at some of the international HEMA events like those in Dijon, Gothenburg, Houston... ? We could definately benefit from people with your level of experience. keep doing ringen, and put some videos up :) have a good day
Absolutley, there is only a few things you can do to counter a headlock so it's easy to think that people from different parts of the world did come up with the same ones.
Well, when you have a body that’s basically the same across the whole world, people tend to come to the same conclusion on how to throw, choke, and submit it.
While some people don't think this is impressive compared to other styles out East. Picture doing this while armoured with 100 to 200lbs worth of equipment. You had to learn this so in case if you lost your weapon you could still fight and had to be easy enough to learn through just looking at pictures in a manuscript.
Echt cool, wie man sieht, muss man nicht nach japan oder brasielien schauen, um gute mma techniken zu finden, deutschland hatte soetwas auch schon im 15 jahrhundert. Auf ähnlichen basics basiert ja auch unser system. Axel ucc hamburg
Ever heard of Ura Nage?? (It's the Japanese name for the traditional Judo technique known as the suplex in the west.) Aside from that, I'd say Olympic Judo is not the gentle way anymore, it has deviated too far from the original principles to be considered anything but a sportified version of a former fighting art.
@Vondanzigkungfu Sorry for the dela. Thank you. I am working on a book. I do not teach at any of the events, but would like to. If I do, I will let you know. keep up the training!
@Vondanzigkungfu Verkert wurf would be in japanese turms gyku trow, I am no grapler so I asume it, it would mean you do it with other leg forward or use something in oposite maner ...
I read somewhere that there was a "grappling" session on Codex Wallerstein. But honestly i don't know if this session is about throws or ground fighting. Anyway, ground fighting wasn't a focus or a necessity at the time. The groundwork as we know today(MMA and submission) was born in Judo. Bye.
I read somewhere that was a "grappling" session on Codex Wallerstein. But honestly i don't know if this session is about throws or ground fighting. Anyway, groundfighting wasn't a focus or a necessity at the time. The groundwork as we know today(MMA and submission) was born in Judo. Bye.
A full hip, which you are doing, rotates the opponent and makes him land on his back. Your interpretation conflicts with both the artwork and the text. I agree that the artwork isn't gospel, but with consise text, certain things must be paid attention to. In #21, the trhow has your man in black with his left arm accross your face, only in the "counter" does he get it right and put it under your armpit. Also, I don't see any counter mentioned to that in the text.
I train Japanese jiu-jitsu, and it's quite amazing how identical these techniques are to it. A lot of them are pretty much exactly the same, and some feature slight variations, but everything is something you could expect to see in a jiu-jitsu dojo. Impressive how, when something works, it gets invented and reinvented all over the world.
Also, it's quite badass how you train on a wooden floor.
Its all down to body mechanics fascinating really.
they are wearing the mats ;)
yea we all have the same body, we just change the rules slightly, I feel that grappling is like the truest human combat
@@DarkestdaysAUthat and probably an even bigger reason is Armor, both groups have big and tough armor so it makes sense they would develop similar styles of Wrestling as it becomes a really important aspect of War.
Exactly@@forickgrimaldus8301
Training brazilian jiu jitsu has really opened my eyes to the art of grappling. Being a history freak, my love for the history of all styles of grappling amongst all cultures has grown. Outstanding!
I think it's fascinating how wrestling has not changed all that much over the centuries. As an American folk style/collegiate wrestler, I recognize all the techniques, just by different name and small minute differences in the technique. I recommend to watch freestyle Olympic wrestling. Sure, there's rules that couldn't have existed in the Middle Ages, but still fascinating to see the techniques that have changed very little.
It shouldn’t be that surprising when you take into consideration the human body hasn’t changed since then,
@@heathenpride7931 In terms of health and people being taller it has
@@chroma6947 that’s very minor when you look at fighting. Height doesn’t matter in this instance since everyone has gotten taller and I imagine fighters were as healthy then as now. It’s not like we grew a third arm or something
@@heathenpride7931 I wouldn’t say that, people are way healthier now and our athletes are better than theirs.
@@michaelterrell5061 of course it depends on location and era, but healthy living isn’t exclusive to the last century or two.
the human body is universal in every martial art.
the moves in Talhoffer are the same as many judo and Akido throws.
also these are only a small sample that was written down. many of the more basic throws and holds were assumed to be understood.
i think the outcome would be the same as any wrestling match,
I practice Gracie Jujitsu and have been learning submission wrestling (Based on Free Style wrestling) I've seen the manules they saved from a long time ago, and pretty much every technique I've seen was a text book Jujitsu move, the Samurai used the same exact moves.
We all have the same body, and there's only so many ways our body bends (and doesn't bend) there's only so many effective ways to use your body to throw, grapple etc. Grappling is VERY similar in every culture.
Even though this comment is from 4 years ago, and you'll probably never read my reply, I'll write it anyways.
It's the same with with swords. I practice HEMA of the Lichtenauer tradition, and there are many similarities between European longswords and Japanese katana (In fighting techniques), and in the end most of these sword style are about how to get a sharp, pointy thing into someone while not getting hurt. I mean, most humans are built the same way and have the same movements, so usually there would be a lot of similarities. It's pretty cool, huh? :D How many mostly isolated cultures can have so many similarities in terms of fighting, right? :D
Weedus I do bjj and there are several bone breaking submissions. I've also incorporated ringen throws in standing randori. They mesh well together.
@@boring5718
Ive sadly only tried one HEMA class (not enough time and money to do both), but I was pleasantly surprised by how well my reflexes from FMA translated to their principles for dagger, bastard sword (we only use short swords such as barongs, machetes and bolos) and spear (which I had never worked with before).
I had my suspicions, given how teacher goes on about "any weapon based system will be working along similar ideas". But it was still a cool eye opener. Even down to the same principles of stringing together attack angles.
@@Wavemaninawe if you can find a good arma group, it'll be alot cheaper than hema i think
This is outstanding. I can see so many similarities to judo. Thanks for making this.
Propably because it is judo. The manuals show only a moment of the movement, not the entire technique, and the rest must have been complemented from judo and bjj.
@@justafloridamanfromthe75thRRbjj didnt exist until hundreds of years later lol. The manual is from the 16th century
@@doransshield9176 just dont understand human body has four arms and one torso somethings is same in any martial art or fight system
There is nothing new under the sun
rryuan I've a theory that the sport of grappling has not changed significantly since the dawn of the first grapplers. Sure, there are new rules but the core techniques and situations grapplers find themselves in are very much the same
That's not really true. I'm sure things like inverted triangles or donkey guard are pretty modern.
Said by those with no good ideas.
@@ChamorruWarrior To be fair, if we still carried swords, knives and axes in day-to-day life, I doubt pure submission grappling styles would be very popular.
This is some of the coolest shit I've seen. Both of the people doing these techniques looked really knowledgeable. My mind is blown with some of those counter techniques.
someone show this too Joe Rogan
A lot of the techniques wouldn't work without a cooperating opponent I'm sure, this is more just to recreate the technique as closely to the manual as possible.
@@clutchingdaggerz359 it does work, you still see these moves one way or another across all modern grappling arts
@@clutchingdaggerz359 ??? many of these are perfectly recognizable from judo and wrestling. They're just not executing at pace and with resistance.
That standing armlock stuff is dicey I grant you, but I promise you guillotines and hip throws are real things.
@@Mulligatawney
I think the standing armbar is more intended as a break than as a lock.
There is similar stuff done in dumog (the grappling component of Filipino Martial Arts), and in many Silat styles. Where the goal is to simply dump the person on the surface, stomp/stab whatever is within reach, explosively rip up a limb and immediately move on to the next task at hand.
From the perspective of a submission grappler, it is too sloppy to be acceptable.
But in the context of armed combat it makes more sense. Since you dont want to strive for the ground when weapons and/or multiple opponents are in the mix.
@@clutchingdaggerz359 From what I've seen, HEMA practioners do a lot of force on force training with actively resisting opponents. I'm guessing the people in the video do the same.
Doesn't being thrown onto hardwood hurt? A lot?
It doesn't, if you fall right. ;)
judo used to be trained on wooden floors
+Der Nova Ritter ehh, are we still talking about medieval european wrestling manuscript?
These guys know what they are doing. If the average person tried doing this on hardwood they would be seriously injured.
My mma group fights on concrete, it all depends on the competence of the combatants.
It's not surprising, really - human bodies are the same the world over, so techniques that work in one place work in others. One thing I do admire about Ringen over Judo though is that it doesn't rely on a lapel or (usually) any clothing at all for its techniques, making it a bit more practical for self defence. I'd love to find a school near me.
While your example #2 is a good throw and a good technique, I'm not sure if it is the one that Talhoffer intended. In my copy of the book (Rector's translation), that technique is plate 204, which reads "The wrestler on the far left steps behind his opponent to throw him." If you look at the illustration, he is stepping behind with his right leg and putting it behind his opponent's thigh, with his left leg back. Your version of the throw involves stepping forward with the left leg and then using the right leg to reap his legs from under him, as in o soto gari from Judo. I think (this is only my interpretation based off of the picture and text in the book that I have, of course!) that the throw involves stepping behind your opponent with the right leg, and then pivoting the opponent down using the grip on the arm and shoulder, more akin to a hip throw.
1:30 interesting technique
As for my experience, I am a 1st degree black belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and I teach it for a living. I am also actively involed in MMA as a coach and training partner for professional fighters. I don't have any video's up or books pubished yet, but it I am working on it. It's great that you are doing Greco. Greco is a great start to interpreting the old Ringen. German ringen is close to a fine mix of Judo, Freestyle wrestling and Greco, with some joint locks from Jiu-Jitsu thrown in.
Just thought I'd point out what some of these throws are called in Judo :) not necessarily an accurate list, but plausible. 2. O-soto otoshi to waki-gatame 4. O-goshi 5. Kata-guruma 6. Te-guruma 7. Sumi-gaeshi 8. Te-guruma again 9. Te-guruma again 11. Ude-garami 12. Koshi-guruma 14. Tani-otoshi 15. O-goshi/(maybe) Uki-goshi 17. Ura-nage and ushiro-goshi 18. Tomoe nagi 19. Ushiro-goshi 20. Sukui-nage and what could be uchi mata sukashi
this is a great, great video. simply amazing. one thing though, at 2:25 in that "guillotine" choke, you don't have to remove your arm from under his armpit to sink the choke, in fact keeping your arm there while you tighten the choke immobilizes his arm and makes it harder for him to defend against it.
otherwise, i am extraordinarily impressed by this video. i've seen ringen videos, but most are so static and rigid, you really show some great fluid moment like you'd see in a bout.
and they said European knights didnt know how to fight...
Which you probably believe if you use Hollywood for historical reference.
+SirPilkington he may be using weeaboos as reference, because they only respect katana as a sword and only samurai as a fighter.
They were trained from a very early age. They would beat the shit out of every Navy Seal in hand to hand combat.
@@Kynos1
For the most part, yes absolutely. Especially in armed hand-to-hand. However, there are some modern SOF guys who train extensively in MMA and the like in their off-time that would potentially be a toss-up against a 15th century knightly man-at-arms in unarmed combat.
Safton Sure, but I'd still put my money on the knight. These guys were trained to fight and kill from a very early age and the daily handling of armor and weapons would have made themvery strong. I assume they had muscles more comparable to a "powerlifter" than a bodybuilder.
Used to train Judo. This here is actually a lot more refined in that there are a lot more counters than in Judo.
The quilted jacket is called a gambeson. They were often worn under armor.
@yelunatic nr. 21 is the plate i am least sure about. There is indeed no counter metioned; the text only says verkert wurf - inverted throw. Taking in consideration the position of the wrestlers in the image i interpretated it as a counter to a schrenken throw. But if you have any alternative ideas I would be most interested to hear them. There is also a verkert wurf mentioned in the 1467 manuscript, but I can't quite make it out either.
@ShayRoberts Thanks Shay! No, we don't wear any additional defence under the gambesons, but usually we train our ringen on mats in T-shirts. And we too think everybody should train on mats in order to avoid injuries. We did this directly on the floor just for video purposes. But we very often train the falling on gym floor too.
The difference that I notice the most often is that all of the WMA throws and chokes can be done outside of a Gi, whereas Judo and Jiujitsu are very sportified and many of the techniques just assume you have clothing on, and further that it is strong enough to withstand the torque of a throw.
I the past they are not using gi, but plate armor and chainmail
I hafta hold back on these when im sparring, Im a huuuuuuge guy (over 300lbs) and the weight i drop can cause breaks so easily. But ive been a practioner for years and i love it. Hood job guys
@ScholapugnatoriaCe is fuelen generally the same idea in all the german fencing schools?
Adoro HEMA e as técnicas de 💪 livre medieval! ⚔️
@yelunatic when you talk about 1/2 hip vs full hip do you mean, to use judo terminology, something like the difference beetwen uki goshi and o goshi?
About landing on elbows in nr. 4 - this is indeed what the text says, but someone skilled in falling will always naturally roll forward in the direction of the throw rather than fall face first to the ground. I have found that bringing the hip in fully gives me more power and stability in the throw so that is how i performed it.
@yelunatic hey man, appreciate the criticism. Agree on the importance of training other arts. I am the wrestler in the white gambeson and as far as cross training goes i also do greco roman wrestling. Currently i am focused on getting good and competing in greco so sadly i do not have the time to also do judo. Alot of ringen techniques are similar to judo, especially with all the grabs at the jacket, so i will definately look into it in the future.
In ten years, nobody has mentioned them doing this on hardwood floor 😭
@MrHenryMason the text for nr.15 in the 1459 version states: Das Achselbrechen. Now i have a hard time imagining a shoulder break from that particular hold. If we look in the 1467 version there are 2 similiar techniques. One si referred to as Oberhuftringen and the other as Achselringen. Paulus Kal also has a similiar throw, he calls it Huftringen uber die achsel. So that is why I interpretated technique nr.15 as a hip throw.
@kaindrg fuhlen is a concept in longsword fencing about feeling your oppononet's intentions in the bind and reacting to them. It does not appear in any wrestling text that I am aware of. Of course feeling what your opponent is doing so you can use the appropriate technique is also very important in wrestling. In this way you can translate the concept from longsword to wrestling. But as far as the original sources are concerned the term fuhlen is used specifically in the context of sword bind.
I would add that I think that the technique at 2.08 is Auerswald's short hip, or tai otoshi, rather than a hip throw. I say interpret it that way because the foot and hand positions in Talhoffer are identical to Auerswald and the text to that manual does not describe a hip throw but one across the leg. The grip and foot positions are also identical to those in Hackenscmidt's 1909 catch wrestlng book, "Complete Science of Wrestling," at 34, where he says the throw is not done over the hips.
I strongly believe that anyone interpreting or reconstructing ringen seriously, should have a background or familiarity in all of those arts. Good luck and keep training!
Excellent work gentlemen. Very fine interpretation of Talhoffer's work. The WMA are a rising storm that will only improve with efforts like yours.
Nice work, gentlemen. Do you wear any back or elbow padding under your gambesons?
technique 3. was aback hold position in the book, you guys demonstrated 50/50 over/under hook
@yelunatic also one more thing. It would be really helpful if you could be more specific and expand about what you didn't like and what you think is wrong, so we can then improve those techniques. Thanks for noting nr. 14, i will work on that throw.
If you don't mind i would also ask what art do you have a backrogund in and if you have any material published on the web like videos or a website. It is always a pleasure to see ringen techniques performed by skilled grapplers.
Have a good day.
I've found that this is kind of a silly question. Since all of the arts you mentioned are just based on body mechanics and leverage, they are roughly the same, though some focus more on one than than another, such as Judo's pure throwing focus. There are throws, takedowns, etc. in BJJ just like there are in Aikido and Ringen. The only REAL difference seems to be the costume worn and the training methodology. My two cents. I look for the universality rather than the differences.
@yelunatic you are completely right about nr. 7. The text mentions only the grip. I added the throw to make it more interesting. I don't think there's anything wrong with that :).
Also in nr. 23 there is no throw mentioned either. It only says "grab his hair and he will let go". But on video it looks much more interetsting with a throw :).
what i meant by "don't have to remove your arm from his armpit" is that you can grab the wrist of the arm choking from underneath his armpit, immobilizing his arm. i don't know if i worded it clearly. at 2:37 you have your right arm under his armpit and your left choking. you don't have to bring your arm out from under his arm, you can reach over the back of the shoulder and under the armpit the other way to get a safer choke. i don't think i worded it well the first time.
Thanks for sharing, nice vid. Fascinating, love these detailed studies of day to day life from the past.
#7 in the artwork shows an over back/around the shoulder grip with the opponent's head on the inside, and there is NO throw mentioned. You show a sacrifice throw with the head on the outside known in judo as "Hikikomi-Gaeshi." Your counter is correct, and is known as "Te-Garuma" in judo. Notice the opponents head is now on the outside, which leaeds to the conclusion that the person being outgripped in #7 may have ducked under in order to do the throw.
This is FANTASTIC! I love it. Thanks for helping give the WMA a good name, guys.
Many thanks for posting this.
@kaindrg I think so. It means feeling the pressure of the opponent's blade on your blade in the bind. One has to feel if the pressure is strong or not and react in appropriate way.
Yes, you have a few of them. Take a look at the "hema alliance club finder". It's a map over many of the groups out there.
Hi.About the hip techniques, I disagree with "here Talhoffer doesn't make any difference and calls them simply huftringen, so i don't think it matters that much." Half-hip and full hip techniques change the dynamics of the throw. For instance, #4 is clearly a 1/4 or 1/2 hip throw and it states in talhoffer's text that the opponent lands on "upon his elbows," or face first. A shallow hip throw will often bring the opponent into a 4 pont stance or on his elbows as Talhoffer describes.
I would like to see someone use these methods against someone using Judo, Jujitsu, or some other Asian fighting style. It would be interesting to see the outcome. This is not to say any style is better then the other, it is just it would be interesting to see how it would work if it was mixed up.
@MrHenryMason
hello, first - thanks for the compliment.
In regards to nr. 12 the manual actually says: ''Das hinder tretten''. The text you posted is from the 1467 edition. But I do think you bring up a good point and the throw can also be performed the way you describe.
I am not quite sure what you mean with the comment on nr. 15 thoguh.
@ScholapugnatoriaCe is that also a wrestling concept?
@yelunatic I don't belive in trying to exactly mimic the artwork as it is not photos. For example, you are shown multiple times to interlock your fingers in various grips. That is never a good idea. I think extrapolating is not bad but even necessary, but ok, there are many approaches to HEMA. About the hip throws, here Talhoffer doesn't make any difference and calls them simply huftringen, so i don't think it matters that much.
I love to see my wrestling displayed that way you do here :-)
do you guys do any fuelen drills
How do you counter an armlock? just asking
that would depend on the arm lock. If you were attacking the elbow like a BJJ arm bar merely moving your rotating your thumb inside will prevent most finishes.
As the other guy said, depends on the armlocks. Some have to be countered by a kick twist of your elbow/thumb. Others can be countered by tackling (is that spelled right?) your opponent in a certain way. Others have certain specific counterlocks wich can end in you having control over your oponents arm.
These are probably the more harmless techniques. As Talhoffers skills where meant for the battlefield.
@kaindrg Hi! The "old" members of our group train fühlen too, but most of our members are beginners, so we didn't do fühlen drills till now. First they must learn the basics, fühlen comes later. But we intend to begin with sistematic fühlen classes after the summer break.
Do you have an English interpretation of the Thott 290 2º manuscript available?
SUPER. Is there ANY, ANY European Martial Art like this (Ringen) or whatever in México?
Like many others, I love how similar it is to other arts. I also want to give props for falling on the hard floor throughout the whole video hahaahha. Good skills on both ends.
Can't say about some other Asian fighting styles but as you can see there are many judo style throws in German ringen and the locks we use are pretty much the same as in jijitstu.
Sweet demo. I can draw parallells to Dumog (the grappling aspect of Filipino Martial Arts), Senegalese Wrestling and I would like to say some hints of Judo (although Im sadly not very knowledgeable there). As the saying goes "there are only so many ways to skin a cat". :-)
* subscribed *
That was awesome. I need to do some more wrestling, Fiore's Abrazare section doesn't cover enough for me! :)
I believe it is true that there are various similarities in the techniques and as I understand it both the hip and shoulder throw are often found in martial styles in both Western and Eastern countries. All the same if such a match were to take place then the similarities as well as the differences might be better shown. All in all it would be a remarkable match.
Is this something anyone can do or do you need to be really strong to be able to do these moves? It's hard to tell if this is all leverage and balance or if you need some considerable strength to be able to throw someone like you are doing.
Most of the moves can be done by anyone without using much strength. Some of the throws where they pick someone up, like the throw done at 1:03, will require you to be strong enough to lift the other person, but can be modified a bit to work without lifting the other. However, being strong will help you with all these techniques.
If you are reasonably athletic any of these are possible with some one your size or a bit smaller. Minus the rear bear hug one. Try that on any decent wrestler and you will get tossed on your head.
@yelunatic quite an impressive background you have there. I didn't know there were any bjj black belts into HEMA. Do you maybe visit or teach at some of the international HEMA events like those in Dijon, Gothenburg, Houston... ? We could definately benefit from people with your level of experience.
keep doing ringen, and put some videos up :)
have a good day
Looks a hell of a lot like Catch as Catch Can. Pretty much identical, except there is a lot more mat work in Catch.
Absolutley, there is only a few things you can do to counter a headlock so it's easy to think that people from different parts of the world did come up with the same ones.
Should have more videos🎥
Excellent ringen demonstration. Good work gentlemen!
Really great demonstrations guys. Thanks for uploading.
#19 (The Headlock Counter) strongly resembles a technique I learned in Hapkido. Convergent evolution?
Nick Hentschel Pretty much, yeah.
NC it's really reminds traditional ju jutsu
Well, when you have a body that’s basically the same across the whole world, people tend to come to the same conclusion on how to throw, choke, and submit it.
While some people don't think this is impressive compared to other styles out East. Picture doing this while armoured with 100 to 200lbs worth of equipment. You had to learn this so in case if you lost your weapon you could still fight and had to be easy enough to learn through just looking at pictures in a manuscript.
Echt cool, wie man sieht, muss man nicht nach japan oder brasielien schauen, um gute mma techniken zu finden, deutschland hatte soetwas auch schon im 15 jahrhundert. Auf ähnlichen basics basiert ja auch unser system. Axel ucc hamburg
Ever heard of Ura Nage?? (It's the Japanese name for the traditional Judo technique known as the suplex in the west.) Aside from that, I'd say Olympic Judo is not the gentle way anymore, it has deviated too far from the original principles to be considered anything but a sportified version of a former fighting art.
Like sport fencing is to actual fencing?
Nicely done . Well presented and concise .
@Vondanzigkungfu Sorry for the dela. Thank you. I am working on a book. I do not teach at any of the events, but would like to. If I do, I will let you know. keep up the training!
Very good job, guys! I really like what I see here. Keep training!
Wow. Talhoffer knew how to do a Tomoe Nage.
Wonderful work with RIngen. Well done.
@Vondanzigkungfu Verkert wurf would be in japanese turms gyku trow, I am no grapler so I asume it, it would mean you do it with other leg forward or use something in oposite maner ...
Lol, I love the ending.
Oh, decent! There are a lot of vids doing ringen, but it is obviously Aikido/old school Jiu-Jitsu. I can really see the wrestling here
This was great. Thanks guys!
What place does this originate from?
NotOrdinaryInGames holy roman empire. so basically present day germany
a lot of these techniques are the exact same as traditional Japanese jujutsu and old catch as catch can wrestling
thanks! very encouraging - makes me want to keep working on my ringen game!
Excellent video!
Is there any kind of groundfighting on those treatsies?
i haven't seen much its usually get them to the ground then stab them in the eye. please link me if you do find some though.
I read somewhere that there was a "grappling" session on Codex Wallerstein. But honestly i don't know if this session is about throws or ground fighting. Anyway, ground fighting wasn't a focus or a necessity at the time. The groundwork as we know today(MMA and submission) was born in Judo. Bye.
I read somewhere that was a "grappling" session on Codex Wallerstein. But honestly i don't know if this session is about throws or ground fighting. Anyway, groundfighting wasn't a focus or a necessity at the time. The groundwork as we know today(MMA and submission) was born in Judo. Bye.
Davi Stanesco thank you i will google now
It must have existed to some extent...just watch a video of a dog brothers fight...
Very nice. You have good wrestling mechanics.
THis is excellent. Thank you for sharing.
+respecc for break falling without mats
Excellent work!
Erstklassig! Excellent! Very good performance
A full hip, which you are doing, rotates the opponent and makes him land on his back. Your interpretation conflicts with both the artwork and the text. I agree that the artwork isn't gospel, but with consise text, certain things must be paid attention to. In #21, the trhow has your man in black with his left arm accross your face, only in the "counter" does he get it right and put it under your armpit. Also, I don't see any counter mentioned to that in the text.
Taught by the masters of their day. 😊
fantastic video! really interesting!
Ninjas eat your heart out
NO SHOUTING OUSS !!!!
Awesome job guys! (last technique is specially cool lol) keep up the good work!
in mantis kung fu this is called the "Jade ring." or "Millstone"
This will really help me a lot wih my ringen. Thank you so much! :)