How refreshing - a political discussion in which there is no name calling, no nasty comments about what they don't agree with, getting sensible ideas across - in a moderated voice........ whatever your leanings, you CANNOT say that THIS type of discourse isn't SORELY lacking in the U.S. today.
I, as a progressive and socialist pinko, actually appreciated most if this this guy's responses,. Until he got to the last guy who was against institutionalized religion, and frum tried to say Trump is super false religious, but that doesn't address the fact that Trump panders to the religious, and Congress recently passed RFRA, whether pandering or not, our country is under the thrall of evangelicals. That is bad, and ironically, opposed to our founding fathers' wishes.
I see the threat from evangelicals, too. They want to dumb down this country with their prosperity gospel bs and bring on Armageddon. They don’t care about democracy and they despise diversity and love conspiracy theories. They’d love a Christian version of sharia law.
Are you aware of the role that David Frum played in the Bush administration? Because if you are, it exemplifies why I've come to despise the American left. He doesn't like Trump, so now he's OK in with the American left. Sad!
Thanks for a very interesting discussion. Two bones to pick: 1) Coherent Republicans who believe that the state is the custodian of data, and the people are the owners, should be giving awards to Assange and Snowden. Chelsea Manning deserves an award for being tortured for disclosing state secret murders of civilians. These are the true heroes of the Nuremberg Principle. 2) Republicans who see themselves as having more to lose from governments that what they can gain, should begin to start to think strategically about how to ensure that government services are as efficient and effective as possible. I would posit that Republicans who have been content to think only of how to cut taxes and how to cut services, have been offering an uninspired, barren politics that has been seen as having marginal utility at best and nothing but insipid dullness as its character. Such an intellectual wasteland was a fertile place for a disrupter who blew away the purveyors of tedium. Trump came in like a bull in a china shop - to an audience who wanted all the pieces tossed into the air, so the would land in a potentially more interesting configuration. Peter Drucker-style Republicans - who would like social harmony and competence, ought to give a moment of thought to how an industrial strategy that would orient the national budget to real problem solving. - This might enable the goals of lower government and lower taxes to become realized - in the presence of high efficiency - lower-cost systems of delivery. That kind of value for investment dollars ought to motivate Republicans to look seriously at supporting the 17 Sustainable Development Goals for 2030. This would give real economies of scale in providing services, and would be a means of building genuine solidarity between nations, creating a lower demand for weapons of war.
Mr. Frum, I know you keep bringing up California, and one party rule, but I would point to Mississippi(my state), Alabama, Kansas, Tennessee, and other states under total GOP control. At least California is a success story
Exactly. And California was the first to use the latest non-partisan tools to derive their districts, unlike the majority of the red states, who are attempting to cement their majorities through gerrymandering and voter suppression.
How could this happen? Now, 2 years in the Precident Trump time, he has an AG lying for him in the senate. Where is this going? From Euorope this is scaring and I can't imagine how You are doing! My condolance to all of the good Americans:-(
As a classical liberal....if you had told me 5 years ago that I would be a huge fan of and prolific consumer of the writings and ideas of a Republican former Bush speech-writer who coined the term "axis of evil".....I'd have predictably laughed and dismissed that as nonsense. But.....here we are. David Frum is not only an excellent example of intelligent ethical conservatism(causing me to consider such a view for the first time) but he's a true patriot and a much needed voice of sanity in today's world. Trump is by far the single worst human being I've _ever_ come across during my 35 years on earth....BUT, he's energized a level of civic discourse, participation, thought, and action that is unprecedented in my lifetime. Trump may be a nauseatingly unethical uninformed and unintelligent human being....but by contrast to himself, he's showing all of US just how intelligent informed and good WE are....or at least have the potential to be. These are such heady emotional times.... As long as we avoid nuclear war(something I'm genuinely concerned about), then I think this will be very healthy in the long run. But....that's a big IF. As Trump himself so "eloquently" put it....Nuclear holocaust is unlike any other. It's scary...truly existentially terrifying. A single dumb, even unintentional, mistake could quite literally end the world as we know it. If you want to stay up at night...look into the science of what even a small nuclear conflict would do to the entire globe in terms of it's long-term affects on....to name just one example....the cultivation of the crops that feed us. I'm absolutely convinced that Trump neither understands nor cares to understand the gravity of such a nightmare scenario...or the incredibly consequential power he wields in affecting the unfolding of such a scenario. His policies and whether I agree of disagree with them are trivial compared to his _mental stability_ and how that could influence the potential for nuclear conflict. That's my #1 concern by far. And we won't get a do-over....there's no second chances. We have the power to end human civilization....but the POTUS lacks the informed ethical intellect necessary to avoid such an outcome. I don't truly hate any human being....and I don't wish death for any human being...........with once exception. If Trump were to finally just have a heart attack and die...then FINALLY we can get on with life and living. I'm just sick to death of the depressing malaise this single human being has forced upon us. Life is too short to waste so much time focusing on the juvenile self-centered stupid mean-spirited antics of one single person. Donald Trump is the only person on earth for whom I literally have ZERO empathy. It's hard to even think of him as a fellow human. I'm just sick to death of the relentless blather and unethical stupidity he forces upon everyone. He's the worst among us. And everyone would be better off without him. I'd like to focus on my own life and making the world a better place. But instead I have to worry about a 7 year old in the body of a 71 year old man who has access to the nuclear codes. It's stomach churning...
In other words, the only thing that the ideological mastermind behind the most catastrophic and geopolitically harmful war of the post-WW2 era has to do in order to get you to praise him is speak a few critical words about Trump because of what an evuhl raycist he is,... and the biggest joke of it all is you actually think you are some kind of intelligent thinker
+avedic It just goes to show how crazy things have become when a proud liberal progressive like me can read your comment and agree with all of it. Perhaps that’s another one of the “gifts” of Trumpocracy that Frum speaks of. In any case, I am getting to the point where I am feeling genuinely bad for my conservative brothers and sisters, and this is why. If the failure of the left is what gave us Trump, and there is much evidence to suggest that it did, then the failure of “Trumpublicanism” is going to be a kick to the groin of reasonable conservatism. These people wanted Abe Lincoln and instead they got Biff Tannen. The liberal backlash from this buffoon of a man is going to be monumental, and I worry that my libertarian friends won’t see reasonable conservatism in politics ever again. Or at least, not for a very long time.
Mueller will start the healing. The fall for Trump's financial crimes will make Watergate look like Disneyland. Much of the case is already public record.
You're completely not getting it then. The whole point that makes Frum interesting is that he is conservative. As he has said, liberals need to understand and distinguish the difference between Trump and, say, Rubio or Santorum or Cruz or Walker. If you're freaking out over something Trump did that one of them would have done, you're totally missing it. What you need to focus on is not the usual tax cut vs tax hike, looser vs. tighter limits on abortion, hawk vs dove arguments that are part of our normal politics.
As a Canadian I say this with love and respect to my American Neighbours that if you do not elect Elizabeth Warren as your next President then you will never regain the respect that you deserve...I have never liked any of the Prime Ministers we have had but I would vote for her in a second...she is the most honest,straight forward politician I have ever seen and she actually knows what she's doing.
She would first have to get the dnc's nod. And they don't like honest, straight forward ppl. So when she isn't there, don't blame America please and thanks.
For all that David Frum's conservative ambitions led him away from Canada it appears the civic-minded necessity for "peace order and good government" is ingrained in him. Jordan Peterson strikes me as arguing for a similar moral middle of the road.....
@Alison McGillivray - I've read a little of Peterson's stuff and listened to some of his interviews. As far as I can tell Peterson doesn't have a position other than grievance...and he has argued falsely on a least one specific Canadian law: the so-called "send you to jail for using pronouns wrong" bill. He does have a strong self-help following among the alt-right and. to the extent he can help those people get their lives together, he is doing a somewhat of a service. But Peterson isn't a person of integrity or character, imo.
Boy is this guy ever deluded. Frum states that so-called 'friends' are concerned that.. "America steps away from the world?" We're actually praying for it. Maybe when 700+ bases are closed we'll have second thoughts but I somehow doubt that.
How refreshing - a political discussion in which there is no name calling, no nasty comments about what they don't agree with, getting sensible ideas across - in a moderated voice........ whatever your leanings, you CANNOT say that THIS type of discourse isn't SORELY lacking in the U.S. today.
I, as a progressive and socialist pinko, actually appreciated most if this this guy's responses,. Until he got to the last guy who was against institutionalized religion, and frum tried to say Trump is super false religious, but that doesn't address the fact that Trump panders to the religious, and Congress recently passed RFRA, whether pandering or not, our country is under the thrall of evangelicals. That is bad, and ironically, opposed to our founding fathers' wishes.
I see the threat from evangelicals, too. They want to dumb down this country with their prosperity gospel bs and bring on Armageddon. They don’t care about democracy and they despise diversity and love conspiracy theories. They’d love a Christian version of sharia law.
Are you aware of the role that David Frum played in the Bush administration? Because if you are, it exemplifies why I've come to despise the American left. He doesn't like Trump, so now he's OK in with the American left. Sad!
David Frum is brilliant on Trump, and in this talk he is in top form. Thank you for posting this.
Thanks for a very interesting discussion. Two bones to pick: 1) Coherent Republicans who believe that the state is the custodian of data, and the people are the owners, should be giving awards to Assange and Snowden. Chelsea Manning deserves an award for being tortured for disclosing state secret murders of civilians. These are the true heroes of the Nuremberg Principle. 2) Republicans who see themselves as having more to lose from governments that what they can gain, should begin to start to think strategically about how to ensure that government services are as efficient and effective as possible.
I would posit that Republicans who have been content to think only of how to cut taxes and how to cut services, have been offering an uninspired, barren politics that has been seen as having marginal utility at best and nothing but insipid dullness as its character. Such an intellectual wasteland was a fertile place for a disrupter who blew away the purveyors of tedium. Trump came in like a bull in a china shop - to an audience who wanted all the pieces tossed into the air, so the would land in a potentially more interesting configuration. Peter Drucker-style Republicans - who would like social harmony and competence, ought to give a moment of thought to how an industrial strategy that would orient the national budget to real problem solving. - This might enable the goals of lower government and lower taxes to become realized - in the presence of high efficiency - lower-cost systems of delivery.
That kind of value for investment dollars ought to motivate Republicans to look seriously at supporting the 17 Sustainable Development Goals for 2030. This would give real economies of scale in providing services, and would be a means of building genuine solidarity between nations, creating a lower demand for weapons of war.
The crisis of aloneness is an undermentioned point.
Mr. Frum was looking for a jazzier term and I think Timothy Snyder nailed it when he called the new authoritarianism, "sadopopulism".
The end never justifies the means ... ever! I Like this guy...
Mr. Frum, I know you keep bringing up California, and one party rule, but I would point to Mississippi(my state), Alabama, Kansas, Tennessee, and other states under total GOP control. At least California is a success story
Exactly. And California was the first to use the latest non-partisan tools to derive their districts, unlike the majority of the red states, who are attempting to cement their majorities through gerrymandering and voter suppression.
Agreed, one party rule is terrible in Republican led/dominated states.
How could this happen? Now, 2 years in the Precident Trump time, he has an AG lying for him in the senate. Where is this going? From Euorope this is scaring and I can't imagine how You are doing! My condolance to all of the good Americans:-(
As a classical liberal....if you had told me 5 years ago that I would be a huge fan of and prolific consumer of the writings and ideas of a Republican former Bush speech-writer who coined the term "axis of evil".....I'd have predictably laughed and dismissed that as nonsense.
But.....here we are. David Frum is not only an excellent example of intelligent ethical conservatism(causing me to consider such a view for the first time) but he's a true patriot and a much needed voice of sanity in today's world. Trump is by far the single worst human being I've _ever_ come across during my 35 years on earth....BUT, he's energized a level of civic discourse, participation, thought, and action that is unprecedented in my lifetime. Trump may be a nauseatingly unethical uninformed and unintelligent human being....but by contrast to himself, he's showing all of US just how intelligent informed and good WE are....or at least have the potential to be.
These are such heady emotional times.... As long as we avoid nuclear war(something I'm genuinely concerned about), then I think this will be very healthy in the long run. But....that's a big IF. As Trump himself so "eloquently" put it....Nuclear holocaust is unlike any other. It's scary...truly existentially terrifying. A single dumb, even unintentional, mistake could quite literally end the world as we know it. If you want to stay up at night...look into the science of what even a small nuclear conflict would do to the entire globe in terms of it's long-term affects on....to name just one example....the cultivation of the crops that feed us.
I'm absolutely convinced that Trump neither understands nor cares to understand the gravity of such a nightmare scenario...or the incredibly consequential power he wields in affecting the unfolding of such a scenario. His policies and whether I agree of disagree with them are trivial compared to his _mental stability_ and how that could influence the potential for nuclear conflict. That's my #1 concern by far. And we won't get a do-over....there's no second chances. We have the power to end human civilization....but the POTUS lacks the informed ethical intellect necessary to avoid such an outcome.
I don't truly hate any human being....and I don't wish death for any human being...........with once exception. If Trump were to finally just have a heart attack and die...then FINALLY we can get on with life and living. I'm just sick to death of the depressing malaise this single human being has forced upon us. Life is too short to waste so much time focusing on the juvenile self-centered stupid mean-spirited antics of one single person.
Donald Trump is the only person on earth for whom I literally have ZERO empathy. It's hard to even think of him as a fellow human. I'm just sick to death of the relentless blather and unethical stupidity he forces upon everyone. He's the worst among us. And everyone would be better off without him. I'd like to focus on my own life and making the world a better place. But instead I have to worry about a 7 year old in the body of a 71 year old man who has access to the nuclear codes. It's stomach churning...
In other words, the only thing that the ideological mastermind behind the most catastrophic and geopolitically harmful war of the post-WW2 era has to do in order to get you to praise him is speak a few critical words about Trump because of what an evuhl raycist he is,... and the biggest joke of it all is you actually think you are some kind of intelligent thinker
+avedic
It just goes to show how crazy things have become when a proud liberal progressive like me can read your comment and agree with all of it. Perhaps that’s another one of the “gifts” of Trumpocracy that Frum speaks of.
In any case, I am getting to the point where I am feeling genuinely bad for my conservative brothers and sisters, and this is why. If the failure of the left is what gave us Trump, and there is much evidence to suggest that it did, then the failure of “Trumpublicanism” is going to be a kick to the groin of reasonable conservatism. These people wanted Abe Lincoln and instead they got Biff Tannen. The liberal backlash from this buffoon of a man is going to be monumental, and I worry that my libertarian friends won’t see reasonable conservatism in politics ever again. Or at least, not for a very long time.
Mueller will start the healing. The fall for Trump's financial crimes will make Watergate look like Disneyland. Much of the case is already public record.
A "classical liberal" is not necessarily (or even usually) someone of the left. It's someone who favors free markets, high immigration and low taxes.
He is really nasty towards Snowden and other whistleblowers. Never forget his origins.
Some of these people act like nothing is happening...
"The most dangerous challenge to the free government of the United States that anyone alive has encountered." SECONDED.
Frum's response to the last question was absolute baloney.
Good talk. I agree. There is hope for us. For example, David Frum doesn't sound like a conservative anymore! That's progress.
Adam, he never was. He'll say anything to further the neoliberal/neocon agenda. Too bad you guys get taken in by his words.
You're completely not getting it then. The whole point that makes Frum interesting is that he is conservative. As he has said, liberals need to understand and distinguish the difference between Trump and, say, Rubio or Santorum or Cruz or Walker. If you're freaking out over something Trump did that one of them would have done, you're totally missing it. What you need to focus on is not the usual tax cut vs tax hike, looser vs. tighter limits on abortion, hawk vs dove arguments that are part of our normal politics.
POWER, CONTROL, OPPRESSION, CRUELTY.........TRUMP.
CAPITAL
Narcissism, incompetence, hubris, racism, Trump.
LINDA B yep!
As a Canadian I say this with love and respect to my American Neighbours that if you do not elect Elizabeth Warren as your next President then you will never regain the respect that you deserve...I have never liked any of the Prime Ministers we have had but I would vote for her in a second...she is the most honest,straight forward politician I have ever seen and she actually knows what she's doing.
She would first have to get the dnc's nod. And they don't like honest, straight forward ppl. So when she isn't there, don't blame America please and thanks.
Frum wont be telling you about Neoconocracy anytime soon.
Last question was Sick! Good job!
How about cyber-fascism?
Excellent lecture and delivered without speaker notes.
For all that David Frum's conservative ambitions led him away from Canada it appears the civic-minded necessity for "peace order and good government" is ingrained in him. Jordan Peterson strikes me as arguing for a similar moral middle of the road.....
@Alison McGillivray - I've read a little of Peterson's stuff and listened to some of his interviews. As far as I can tell Peterson doesn't have a position other than grievance...and he has argued falsely on a least one specific Canadian law: the so-called "send you to jail for using pronouns wrong" bill. He does have a strong self-help following among the alt-right and. to the extent he can help those people get their lives together, he is doing a somewhat of a service. But Peterson isn't a person of integrity or character, imo.
POLITICS & PROSE MY UNIVERSITY .
I suspect that Trump is an interim, Crassus-like figure; a way station on the road to Caesar...
Thank you, Mr. Frum
the group think is dripping from the ceiling....
Ironically, DUMP doesn't deserve our attention but we have to for the sake of being good citizens.
Throw this BUM in prison!
Why?
A true trumper less taxes less services
leadership? Domination more likely.
The world doesn't need merica.
#thehopeofamerica = itspeople
Excellent. So interesting.
This book should top the charts in Trumpistan. Mad King Donald will steal ten copies alone!
Boy is this guy ever deluded. Frum states that so-called 'friends' are concerned that.. "America steps away from the world?" We're actually praying for it. Maybe when 700+ bases are closed we'll have second thoughts but I somehow doubt that.
Never did like him or trust him.
Too bad the author says very little about the positive effects of Trump.