Great video, thanks. I am looking at it as I do post production work and had a client ask me about it. I am building out a new editing room anyways and am looking to try to create a hybrid type of console. My problem is A) starting from scratch with audio B) Starting from the very beginning with everything, and C) trying to nail down a budget. I have gone everywhere from $20,000 all the way up to just over $100,000. Looking forward to your journey as I start mine out.
Thanks Justin. Yea lol, Atmos isn't cheap and may be a steep learning curve for many, if they can even afford to invest. I think about $8000 was about the cheapest I could get the cost down to but it could easily be waaaaaay more. I worry that Atmos could leave a lot of musicians and small studios (myself included) in the dust. For myself (if Atmos becomes the new standard) I'll have no choice but to shell out the money for an Atmos setup if I want to keep making videos. Or pivot the channel and focus more on song writing and such. If Atmos sticks though, its going to shake a lot of things up in the music industry, for better or for worse. Only time will tell =)
So what are your thoughts on it now? With Apple Music saying they won’t playlist new music without spatial audio, and Spotify building Atmos studios. Do you think where we’re at now is gonna be where we stay?
Hey Camdon I’ve been pondering how to answer this without writing a novel lol. Let me get the bad out of the way first. I feel there is a degree of gatekeeping as many of us at home or with small studios may not ever be able to put in all the speakers and such needed for a decent Atmos setup. Apple deciding what it did with playlists adds to that a little bit. It seems like the powers that be have decided Atmos is pretty much the new standard. I think once Spotify starts offering Atmos streaming then that will be the end of it. On the flip side though, all of these services I’m sure will have a way to compare stereo vs Atmos streaming. If most of the public continues to listen to stereo instead then that could also end the whole Atmos for music thing. I mean the general public will ultimately make the decision. Companies can push it all they want but if we don’t buy in then that’s the end of that. Even then, I think stereo will be around for a number of years. Except for maybe satellite radio, FM radio won’t be broadcasting Atmos anytime soon. Maybe premium car brands have announced Atmos systems for their cars but it will be a few years before that starts to trickle down to “typical” cars. I can’t imagine RUclips will allow Atmos uploading anytime soon. Or Facebook, instagram. So then look at services like epidemic sound, artlist, who are used by many content creators. If the social media sites don’t support Atmos uploads then why would musicians creating music for those services create Atmos mixes? Going from mono to stereo was one thing, but this is a whole different can of worms. I personally hope it sticks. I’ve had a surround sound system for close to 25 years and I’ve always wished it would stick for music. I understand why quad, 5.1 and such failed. But most consumer products already support Atmos, and even via headphones (binaural anyway) which you could never do with previous surround formats. So the “infrastructure” is more or less in place. So unless people flat out reject it, I can’t see Atmos not sticking. But I think it will be a long while before stereo is fully phased out. There is more I could go into but that’s about the long and short of my thoughts on it for now 🙂
@@EverythingMusicRecording that’s fair. I don’t believe stereo is going anywhere any time soon either. But it does certainly seem like Atmos/spatial/immersive/etc is gonna have some staying power. Im excited to see where it goes. I will not however be building an Atmos rig anytime soon. 😂
For sure!! I mean even many tv channels still run a stereo/SD version. At least where I live. But they run along side the HD/5.1 version. So many still broadcast both feeds. But same here on the Atmos rig. Lowest I can price it out is pushing $5000. So unless this channel blows up and/or I fall bass-awkwards into tons of money I’ll be limited to headphones for awhile. Luckily for myself tho my receiver in my living room is Atmos. So I just need to upgrade my appletv to the 4K version (the regular doesn’t output Atmos) and add a couple of height speakers and I’ll have a 5.1.2 setup that I can at least reference tracks and check mixes on. So even though I’ll have to mix on cans I at least will have a way to check on speakers for the time being. I think that’s a good thing though as probably most people at home will be limited to headphones which is where I’m gonna end up focusing my Atmos vidoes on for the foreseeable future.
I have a 5.1 version of NIN - Downward Spiral and it's incredible however, I can really only listen to it in my basement to get the full effect. As for Atmos it's cool and all but the majority of Atmos enabled devices people have (including myself) are soundbars which isn't the best way to listen to Atmos content but still cool. Keep up the videos!
I had that version too! Not sure where it got to tho. I’d have to try and find it. Yea the issue with previous surround formats is they were locked into a setup. To listen to 5.1 you had to have a 5.1 setup. With Atmos tho it’s scalable. So in real time the decoder will adapt to the speaker setup you have. 64 speakers all the way down to a single mono speaker. Plus binaural for listening on headphones. Non of this was possible with previous formats, hence why your NIN album will only work when played back on a 5.1 setup.
I don't really understand the purpose of Dolby Atmos besides movies, as most music are created for stereo field. Isn't that like trying to watch 720p videos on a 4K display? Or is that comparison flawed and I should think more of MQA?
You're not alone in that thought. Many people do not see the point of Atmos for music. Even reading through forums online its pretty split between people who prefer the binaural (Atmos) mixes and those who either don't like them, or couldn't care less. I think the other factor is how many people are going to properly set up an Atmos system in their living room and then sit in the sweet spot to listen to music? A very small number. I'd like to see Atmos for music stick around, but I'm also not convinced it will. Not yet anyway. thats why my recommendation for us with small home studios is to prepare, but hold off a bit before investing in all the gear we need to mix in atmos. lol I think the comparison might be more like watching 4K video on a CRT screen from the 70's. Again, just because how many people will properly set up an Atmos system in their living room and sit in the sweet spot to listen to music? I have no idea what quality atmos tracks are being streamed at, if its MQA or something else. I'm sure every streaming service will have its own methods. They sure aren't streaming what we would export out of Logic or Pro Tools though. Those ADM BWF files can be 5-10 gig depending on the song. FAAAAAAR too large to stream.
Partly the problem is the music industry workflow is Stereo mix first, then do an Atmos mix from the stereo stems and try and make it sound like the Stereo mix, but immersive. This is in my opinion due to several factors, but primarily the Dolby Atmos Renderer comes from Post and so the mono/stereo stem approach is how it's been done forever with film and just doesn't lend itself to producing Atmos from the beginning. Also the renderer is fixed buffer of 512 or 1024 which can make live recording less than ideal and there's no built-in workflow to easily create Atmos & Stereo concurrently, although some engineers like Bob Clearmountain do mix like this, but from his modified SSL and uses Dolby Atmos Renderer like a print rig rather than how traditional used with the Dolby Atmos Panners. Early days though, but I think Atmos will become more just a delivery/spatial format, but there are numerous ways to create Dolby Atmos without necessarily needing Dolby I the studio, but that's another topic and probably a few years away yet.
You've made a lot of great points Sam. I have a couple things to add to it. First off, yes you have to mix with a buffer of 512 or 1024. But if you are diving into a mix before tracking is even done, a high buffer is not the issue. With music your tracks should be finalized before moving on to the mixing stage. Making an atmos mix from the stereo stems makes perfect sense, for now. Stereo is still king and the standard for music. Hence we will continue to record as we normally would. If Atmos sticks and becomes the new standard for music, then how we record albums will also change and engineers will be thinking about the atmos mix when tracking. But Atmos will need to become the new standard before that really start to happen IMHO. You did mention the film side of things. There are no film composers who work in full surround. Quad, yes, but not full surround. (Take Hans Zimmer as an example) When it comes to composing for film, you stay out of the center channel and the LFE. The center is for dialogue and the LFE is for explosions and other sub frequency sounds. (Hence the Quad setup and not surround) IF there is music placed in the center or LFE channel then that is a decision made by the mix engineer on the dubbing stage, not the composer. Even Harry Gregson-Williams ditched this setup years ago and just works in stereo. A film composers music cannot interfere with the rest of the sounds needed for picture. So how can you write or record music in an Atmos format for film when you would have no idea what sound effects and foley will be added, or that your music might be getting in the way of? You can't. Probably why most film composers stick with working in stereo. But for just music not tied to picture, we don't have any of these restrictions. We don't have dialogue and foley to deal with. So we can really do whatever we want. So it will be very interesting to see what happens in the coming years. Either way, Atmos will either become the new standard, or it will flop and we just keep working in stereo =)
You could very well be correct. Only time will tell. I think this giant push could easily ruin things. Instead of doing things well the labels want everything 10 mins ago, so much of it is rushed and sounds bad. That’s why I recommend us at home start planning incase it does stick, but to hold off on buying anything until we know for sure. I’d hate for anyone to blow that kind of money for nothing.
Yea, that’s the issue with Atmos. No matter how you crunch the numbers it won’t be cheap. It could be done for less than 5-figures, but even if you could get it down to $5,000 that is still out of reach for a lot of people. Sure you could just mix on headphones or just using a 2.0 setup, but I think it’s gonna leave too “guessing” and “hoping for the best”. It’s going to be interesting if Atmos sticks around for music.
Have you, or are you considering investing in an ATMOS setup in your home studio? Let me know in the comments.
Love your videos, Jeff. Your channel will grow quickly!
Thanks Ed! It's always nice to hear, and maybe one day it will =)
Good logical advice, and thanks!
Thanks James, I do what I can to try and help 🙂
Great video, thanks. I am looking at it as I do post production work and had a client ask me about it. I am building out a new editing room anyways and am looking to try to create a hybrid type of console. My problem is A) starting from scratch with audio B) Starting from the very beginning with everything, and C) trying to nail down a budget. I have gone everywhere from $20,000 all the way up to just over $100,000. Looking forward to your journey as I start mine out.
Thanks Justin. Yea lol, Atmos isn't cheap and may be a steep learning curve for many, if they can even afford to invest. I think about $8000 was about the cheapest I could get the cost down to but it could easily be waaaaaay more.
I worry that Atmos could leave a lot of musicians and small studios (myself included) in the dust. For myself (if Atmos becomes the new standard) I'll have no choice but to shell out the money for an Atmos setup if I want to keep making videos. Or pivot the channel and focus more on song writing and such. If Atmos sticks though, its going to shake a lot of things up in the music industry, for better or for worse. Only time will tell =)
So what are your thoughts on it now? With Apple Music saying they won’t playlist new music without spatial audio, and Spotify building Atmos studios. Do you think where we’re at now is gonna be where we stay?
Hey Camdon
I’ve been pondering how to answer this without writing a novel lol.
Let me get the bad out of the way first. I feel there is a degree of gatekeeping as many of us at home or with small studios may not ever be able to put in all the speakers and such needed for a decent Atmos setup. Apple deciding what it did with playlists adds to that a little bit.
It seems like the powers that be have decided Atmos is pretty much the new standard. I think once Spotify starts offering Atmos streaming then that will be the end of it. On the flip side though, all of these services I’m sure will have a way to compare stereo vs Atmos streaming. If most of the public continues to listen to stereo instead then that could also end the whole Atmos for music thing. I mean the general public will ultimately make the decision. Companies can push it all they want but if we don’t buy in then that’s the end of that.
Even then, I think stereo will be around for a number of years. Except for maybe satellite radio, FM radio won’t be broadcasting Atmos anytime soon. Maybe premium car brands have announced Atmos systems for their cars but it will be a few years before that starts to trickle down to “typical” cars.
I can’t imagine RUclips will allow Atmos uploading anytime soon. Or Facebook, instagram. So then look at services like epidemic sound, artlist, who are used by many content creators. If the social media sites don’t support Atmos uploads then why would musicians creating music for those services create Atmos mixes?
Going from mono to stereo was one thing, but this is a whole different can of worms.
I personally hope it sticks. I’ve had a surround sound system for close to 25 years and I’ve always wished it would stick for music. I understand why quad, 5.1 and such failed. But most consumer products already support Atmos, and even via headphones (binaural anyway) which you could never do with previous surround formats. So the “infrastructure” is more or less in place.
So unless people flat out reject it, I can’t see Atmos not sticking. But I think it will be a long while before stereo is fully phased out.
There is more I could go into but that’s about the long and short of my thoughts on it for now 🙂
@@EverythingMusicRecording that’s fair. I don’t believe stereo is going anywhere any time soon either. But it does certainly seem like Atmos/spatial/immersive/etc is gonna have some staying power. Im excited to see where it goes. I will not however be building an Atmos rig anytime soon. 😂
For sure!! I mean even many tv channels still run a stereo/SD version. At least where I live. But they run along side the HD/5.1 version. So many still broadcast both feeds.
But same here on the Atmos rig. Lowest I can price it out is pushing $5000. So unless this channel blows up and/or I fall bass-awkwards into tons of money I’ll be limited to headphones for awhile.
Luckily for myself tho my receiver in my living room is Atmos. So I just need to upgrade my appletv to the 4K version (the regular doesn’t output Atmos) and add a couple of height speakers and I’ll have a 5.1.2 setup that I can at least reference tracks and check mixes on. So even though I’ll have to mix on cans I at least will have a way to check on speakers for the time being.
I think that’s a good thing though as probably most people at home will be limited to headphones which is where I’m gonna end up focusing my Atmos vidoes on for the foreseeable future.
Finger guns for the win!
lol always!!
Hello, I have seen a second motu24/IO interfast, will it work for the dolby system?
It has 24 outputs so there shouldn’t be any reason that it wouldn’t work. Not that I can think of anyway.
I have a 5.1 version of NIN - Downward Spiral and it's incredible however, I can really only listen to it in my basement to get the full effect. As for Atmos it's cool and all but the majority of Atmos enabled devices people have (including myself) are soundbars which isn't the best way to listen to Atmos content but still cool. Keep up the videos!
I had that version too! Not sure where it got to tho. I’d have to try and find it.
Yea the issue with previous surround formats is they were locked into a setup. To listen to 5.1 you had to have a 5.1 setup. With Atmos tho it’s scalable. So in real time the decoder will adapt to the speaker setup you have. 64 speakers all the way down to a single mono speaker. Plus binaural for listening on headphones. Non of this was possible with previous formats, hence why your NIN album will only work when played back on a 5.1 setup.
Great video brother
Thanks =)
I don't really understand the purpose of Dolby Atmos besides movies, as most music are created for stereo field. Isn't that like trying to watch 720p videos on a 4K display? Or is that comparison flawed and I should think more of MQA?
You're not alone in that thought. Many people do not see the point of Atmos for music. Even reading through forums online its pretty split between people who prefer the binaural (Atmos) mixes and those who either don't like them, or couldn't care less.
I think the other factor is how many people are going to properly set up an Atmos system in their living room and then sit in the sweet spot to listen to music? A very small number. I'd like to see Atmos for music stick around, but I'm also not convinced it will. Not yet anyway. thats why my recommendation for us with small home studios is to prepare, but hold off a bit before investing in all the gear we need to mix in atmos.
lol I think the comparison might be more like watching 4K video on a CRT screen from the 70's. Again, just because how many people will properly set up an Atmos system in their living room and sit in the sweet spot to listen to music?
I have no idea what quality atmos tracks are being streamed at, if its MQA or something else. I'm sure every streaming service will have its own methods. They sure aren't streaming what we would export out of Logic or Pro Tools though. Those ADM BWF files can be 5-10 gig depending on the song. FAAAAAAR too large to stream.
Partly the problem is the music industry workflow is Stereo mix first, then do an Atmos mix from the stereo stems and try and make it sound like the Stereo mix, but immersive. This is in my opinion due to several factors, but primarily the Dolby Atmos Renderer comes from Post and so the mono/stereo stem approach is how it's been done forever with film and just doesn't lend itself to producing Atmos from the beginning. Also the renderer is fixed buffer of 512 or 1024 which can make live recording less than ideal and there's no built-in workflow to easily create Atmos & Stereo concurrently, although some engineers like Bob Clearmountain do mix like this, but from his modified SSL and uses Dolby Atmos Renderer like a print rig rather than how traditional used with the Dolby Atmos Panners. Early days though, but I think Atmos will become more just a delivery/spatial format, but there are numerous ways to create Dolby Atmos without necessarily needing Dolby I the studio, but that's another topic and probably a few years away yet.
You've made a lot of great points Sam. I have a couple things to add to it.
First off, yes you have to mix with a buffer of 512 or 1024. But if you are diving into a mix before tracking is even done, a high buffer is not the issue. With music your tracks should be finalized before moving on to the mixing stage.
Making an atmos mix from the stereo stems makes perfect sense, for now. Stereo is still king and the standard for music. Hence we will continue to record as we normally would. If Atmos sticks and becomes the new standard for music, then how we record albums will also change and engineers will be thinking about the atmos mix when tracking. But Atmos will need to become the new standard before that really start to happen IMHO.
You did mention the film side of things. There are no film composers who work in full surround. Quad, yes, but not full surround. (Take Hans Zimmer as an example) When it comes to composing for film, you stay out of the center channel and the LFE. The center is for dialogue and the LFE is for explosions and other sub frequency sounds. (Hence the Quad setup and not surround) IF there is music placed in the center or LFE channel then that is a decision made by the mix engineer on the dubbing stage, not the composer.
Even Harry Gregson-Williams ditched this setup years ago and just works in stereo. A film composers music cannot interfere with the rest of the sounds needed for picture. So how can you write or record music in an Atmos format for film when you would have no idea what sound effects and foley will be added, or that your music might be getting in the way of? You can't. Probably why most film composers stick with working in stereo.
But for just music not tied to picture, we don't have any of these restrictions. We don't have dialogue and foley to deal with. So we can really do whatever we want. So it will be very interesting to see what happens in the coming years. Either way, Atmos will either become the new standard, or it will flop and we just keep working in stereo =)
Don’t just don’t Dolby Atmos and immersive sound is bloody awful. It’s the quadraphonic of the 21 century and is just as useless
You could very well be correct. Only time will tell. I think this giant push could easily ruin things. Instead of doing things well the labels want everything 10 mins ago, so much of it is rushed and sounds bad.
That’s why I recommend us at home start planning incase it does stick, but to hold off on buying anything until we know for sure. I’d hate for anyone to blow that kind of money for nothing.
Well i ain't preparing to go bankrupt 😂 😂 coz yikes
Yea, that’s the issue with Atmos. No matter how you crunch the numbers it won’t be cheap. It could be done for less than 5-figures, but even if you could get it down to $5,000 that is still out of reach for a lot of people.
Sure you could just mix on headphones or just using a 2.0 setup, but I think it’s gonna leave too “guessing” and “hoping for the best”. It’s going to be interesting if Atmos sticks around for music.
Honestly, I hate atmos. I won’t be switching over any time soon
That’s fair and I’m sure you’re not alone on that. What is it that you don’t like about Atmos?