Here are the timestamps. Please check out our sponsors to support this podcast. 0:00 - Introduction & sponsor mentions: - Coinbase: coinbase.com/lex to get $5 in free Bitcoin - Quip: getquip.com/lex to get first refill free - Eight Sleep: www.eightsleep.com/lex and use code LEX to get special savings - NetSuite: netsuite.com/lex to get free product tour - ExpressVPN: expressvpn.com/lexpod and use code LexPod to get 3 months free 0:20 - Stalin and absolute power 14:17 - Dictators and genocide 38:43 - What is genocide 48:50 - Human nature and suffering 1:18:35 - Mao's Great Leap Forward 1:25:49 - North Korea 1:29:42 - Our role in fighting against atrocities 1:38:38 - China 1:42:47 - Hopes for the future and technology 1:57:40 - Advice for young people 2:00:27 - Love and tragedy
How are you going to talk about Genocide without mentioning the most successful genocide in recent history the Native Americans? Very biased. There are legitimate critiques of Soviet Union. This isn’t it.
Lex can you get an expert in Japanese history on someday to discuss the sengoku period it was a period of war that lasted a 100 years between the samurai clans it’s fascinating
@@flurnsdale3929 Thank you for your note. Just to add my two cents -- three ethnic groups fell victims of the famine -- Kazakhs, Ukrainians, Russians, which means the motifs of the famine were not ethnicity-driven. It was about industrialization and exchange of grains for machinery and technologies where the west, mostly the US, won't accept any other form of payment, but grains and gold.
@@evawind the definition of genocide is discussed in the podcast. Quoted as “the intentional destruction of an ethnic, national, racial or religious group”. It doesn’t need to be an ethnic group. Here, it would be three national groups under the Soviet Union. They were intentionally targeted and viewed as lesser than other components of the union.
„One overdressed naïve optimist” - Lex, you’re a brilliant man! 😂 Your podcasts have become an integral part of my life. You’re such a powerhouse of a human.
Thank you Lex.My family is from Ukraine and never spoke of those days.Your guest is opening up my eyes to the sad part of our history.Thank you so much Norman Naimark
my family is ukranian and thats literally all my grandparents talk about. completely mentally destroyed by these dictators until the day they died over in canada.. hows your day baba? ... answer., do you know what is world war 2? .... on repeat ever single day.. like they are still trapped in the hell of it all. never to be free again so sad
With all due respect, years ago was the far better time to learn about this. We would have treated this like the flu it that turned out to be, instead of revealing so many to be go-along-get-along bootlicking NPCs.
Luck, probably, had little to do with it. Naimark is a professor at Stanford- the majority of students that gain entry to Stanford, Harvard, Yale , etc. come from the American ruling class, or business class, same thing really. You could say “ruling class” is more a generational thing if you wanted to differentiate between new money business moguls
Lex's reaction to the pessimism of his guest is so admirable. God bless you Lex. I hope most people have a strong flame of love in their hearts that would usually overcome the garbage the world throws at them. I hope you are right Lex. I truly do.
@@puneet7768 How about...I quote,you can shoot anyone who are looking for food, people were eating there own kids , body's piled up like Belson.. Thats not propaganda come on.
It's so funny how Lex keep trying to have hope in humanity “but the flame”, but the professor just goes “nah son, we're scum, I'm tellin ya“ and just utterly destroys every hope. 😂
To think that there will never be another genocide is just blind naive hope. Knowing what we know about Homo Sapiens that is a zero % possibility. There will also be lots of beautiful actions and heroic ones but one day, sure as night follows day, there will be another warlord who preys on the vulnerable.
I’d love to see a three way between these two with Jordan Peterson. A lot of people don’t know this but Peterson started in Political Science but after getting his Polly Sci degree he switched to psychology. He did this because he was seeking answers about the Holocaust and the tragedy in the USSR as to how could this have happened and determined it was more of a psychological question than a political one. Much of his early research centred around these issues.
Shame on you, but in spite of your ridiculous babble, in the presence of your an intelligent expression, here is my sincere advice to you. In my opinion, you need to better study the phenomenon of that time, and that era. In more detail, without partiality, immerse yourself in the deeds of all the then leaders and heads of state in order to come out in relation to one of them, in particular Stalin, with such a verdict and such judgments. But let's admit it, you won't do that. By doing so, you fall out of the modern trend, aimed at defiling and discrediting the very idea of building a "no-class society" where "man to man is friend, comrade and brother" You, with your " stupidity and ignorance", "prepare the ground for world fascism". Based on your age, you will probably get away with it, but "thankful society" will remember "your" names...
@@lucianboar3489 Each time I would say we were a bit lucky that it was not even worse but it was certainly horrific. However the tech gets more powerful as time goes on and at some point I have to agree.
These two men make me proud to be a human. What could anyone possibly add to this conversation? it seems to me they cover the entire spectrum of thought and feeling.
@olivegrovebear Says the misanthrope. Knowledge is not measured in quantity. You remind me of an opinion. If you have something constructive to say let's hear it.
@@mauricemorning I apologize I didn't listen to the stream , I'm automatic disqualified . its only these type of guests / topics. in MY past experience here , has always been less than authentic and more misleading with historical fact , may I stress not all interviews but most for me . I love honest dynamic conversation between knowledgeable people .. that disqualifies me from being a misanthrope . Is the word democide more appropriate here , I truly believe it is ... if you haven't witnessed democide over the past years , one has been living under the rock . I will listen to the stream now and I already hear omissions of fact . But I already enjoy the guest . thank you good sir
@olivegrovebear Yes, democide is the right word, and no, I have not witnessed it so I apologize. I too will watch again and look for deceit. I do know how evil leaders always cloak themselves under veils of decency.
My mom lived through the Nazi occupation of the Netherlands. Neighbors who once were friendly and normal became informants and told the Nazis who was hiding Jews. After the war they acted like nothing had happened and they did nothing wrong.
@@djvincekline7338 it’s all of the above. Some people probably enjoyed ratting on people. Some people would hide people, some would just not say anything, some would actively speak out.
Lex has got at least one book in him, if only the current position of his personal philosophy and how his experiences with these long form conversations has molded them.
Toward 2:05:00 when the topic of intensity of love and care in times of struggle came up, the book Click by Ori and Rom Brafman came to mind. In their book, the brothers evaluate what they call magical interactions (conversations where you both vibe/resonate, where things just 'click'). One of the five main factors they note is a shared framework, especially frameworks of challenging times. I think why people develop seemingly more intense feelings in these types of relationships is because of trust. While trauma bonding could be a part of it, the more profound thing I think is that when you know you can trust a person in tense times, you know you can trust them in good ones. Sure people can change after those situations, but the general notion of trust is profound. Thanks for yet another stellar conversation.
Excellent point, as the old Jew put it 'whoever is faithful with very little will also be faithful with much!' The darker aspect that I took from Norm is that even this approximation of trustworthiness is simplistic - there's a funny anecdote by Saul Bellow in Mr. Samler's Planet where he's saved by an Anti-Semitic Polish man, significance being his Jewishness. Its a cognitive strategy; life is almost unbearable lived on the ''case-by-case" basis. Its far more efficient to assume poorly dressed African-American males in sketchy situations are most likely criminals than to give them the benefit of the doubt. Kyrie eleison!
The idea that one man, in Germany, USSR, Cambodia, North Korea etc. Could single handedly commit these atrocities is ridiculous. The people of these countries allowed them and actively participated in them through their morality. They were morally bankrupt. I can't imagine eating another human being let alone my own children. We, as a people must have a sense of morality or we'll allow evil men to rise up.
1:14:00 Uhhh, that's dangerous thinking and a-historical. Germany was an advanced, if not the most advanced country (also most open minded in many regards) at the advent of the holocaust. The 9/11 terrorists were academics, law students, teachers, aeronautic students etc., Mao tried his hands on multiple different higher education schools only to become an autodidact at the local library, Hitler aspired to study, Stalin started at a religious collage, Mengele sang operas during his experiments and most (if not almost all) of the "middle management" of the German and Japanese perpetrators of genocide went not only scot-free but enjoyed long careers in the Soviet Union and USA for being valuable and highly educated assets. Imagine a //insert a person of a persecuted group// deep diving into the history of the genocides of his people - will it inspire hope or hatred? Now make him charismatic because he is studying psychology or theater. Let him find a highly paid job or nice party position... what will you end up with? A Gandhi or a Pol-Pot? Is it still a coin flip? Chinese leadership is almost entirely made up of engineers and China's youth fights fist and nail to enroll into university... yet, still the Uighurs are getting wiped out slowly but surely. Fuck look at Cesar, a person that enjoyed the highest education possible at the time. and his kill count of Gauls. Education comes with rationality and "the ultimate victory of rationality were the death factories of the holocaust" (I forgot who wrote that but it stuck with me).
59:41 I think you guys overlook the power of propaganda when it comes to Hitler's regime. I think if it were not for Goebbels, Hitler's influence over Germany may not have been nearly as fanatical. It was kind of the first time in history when propaganda, radio and striking imagery were used in concert to such great effect. You can even see this in the German postage stamps between 1933-45. Today we are swimming in propaganda in many forms so it's much more difficult to rally large groups of people together for a single unified cause, at least in the case of the USA. It also a great way to promote and perpetuate the lowest mode humans can operate in - tribalism. The Taliban have used propaganda to great effect. I think without that power of propaganda Hitler may have just kept screaming at the wall without much actually happening.
Also, the influence of the wealthy and the occult... The Thule society was instrumental in the formation of the Nazi party, as was their beliefs in underground civilizations, extraterrestrial civilizations, and other occult beliefs.
In other words, Hitler was selected by these occult societies, as well as even groomed by the Jesuits of the Vatican. A Catholic Jesuit helped Hitler write Mein Kampf.
@@jeremyt4292 Yes yes!!!! I think the supernatural is never brought into these conversations bc people are scared to say anything in reference to it. Even this man was hesitant to talk on the subject of morality. Also, through the human journey, the powers of the supernatural or unseen realm, has had the upper hand of being invisible. It’s an invisible hand that has always been involved, on the ground with the human family. Think of the story about the 2 angels that come to Sodome & Gamorah to warn the family of faithful believers. Think of the angels (GEN:6) that come down and take wives for themselves. There’s an element of the supernatural in these men throughout history. All the killers and genocides that has transpired. All that loss of life. Famines, wars, droughts, fire, genocides, floods… so much death.
Great work Lex and I appreciate your ability to be a great listener and the questions you ask, which really brings out the best conversation with your guests. Keep up the good work, stay humble as your podcast grows and we are looking forward to your next episode. 😊
another great episode, thanks a lot Lex! Have you ever considered having a Buddhist monk or some scholar of Buddhism on? I think that would make for a great conversation, especially with your interest regarding suffering and the meaning of life.
He reminds me the father of the protagonist of the movie The Pianist. If any of you never watched The Pianist i will suggest that you are missing something lifechanging .. DO watch
Watching this a little late. It's so interesting to hear with the last month of recent history. 💙💛💙💛 Hoping for more positive outcomes in the future and praying for those who are suffering now.
I'm halfway into the episode and I have to say this is a heavy one. It's discouraging and depressing to hear how pessimistic Naimark is about human nature although I guess not surprising given the type of work he does. Once again, I appreciate the hell out of Lex for trying to bring the light and focus on the good parts of the human spirit. Individuals like him that remind us that it is possible to live from a place of love and that we can choose to do so on a daily basis. The world changes when we all choose to live better as individuals.
History is on Norms side, sadly. Lex's exuberance and hope is to be cherished; the adults* in the room however know like Norm said that monsters lurk beneath the surface. Absolutely fantastic interview!
Lex this was incredibly powerful...so well done and beautifully communicated on both parts. I continue to be enthralled in these incredibly important conversations you are so graciously bringing to the world. Thank you.
You're arrival is timely Lex. We're in interesting times sure as shit. The interviews by you and other's around the world appear to teach two fundamental lessons; individual sovereignty beats national sovereignty, and God is Love. Fuzz
imo not really... i mean there where even more people dying if there was no love at all. what about all the people that share with others in time of need. there's so much good done in the name of love today, even if it's not much compared to the suffering it is still something and it would be irrational to deny it.
Completely agree, where is the meaning when you and your family are illiterate, starving, have no knowledge of the outside world and are tortured to death. Suffering while working on a machine learning project or going for a run is incomparable to the aforementioned horrendous, meaningless suffering experienced by the victims of history.
@@patrickhiggins9633 exactly. I found Lex's petulant idealism galling and childish in this interview. real suffering and atrocities need to be taken seriously and confronted, not waved away with vague gestures at 'love' and the innovation gods.
I feel like the reason people sometimes hate others or groups of others, is due to their deeply held feelings/beliefs of lack and unworthiness. Due to those unacknowledged deep, dark feelings, those who hate, seem to do so because they’re mindlessly letting out parts of themselves they’re hiding from themselves, unwittingly. They feel powerless and unworthy of power, so they coldly take it from others. They feel alone and in pain, so they coldly inflict pain onto others. When people bring pain and terror into the collective reality, I believe it’s because it can no longer be contained within them. People typically aren’t even aware of these parts of themselves. Throughout my life I’ve noticed people almost always reject those parts of themselves and in doing so, they also reject SO MANY of their amazing and beautiful qualities! Every negative can also be a positive (like two sides of a coin) but if you suppress either one, you’ll get neither. I was conversing with an INTJ the other day, who said his intense drive and perfectionism is a weakness. I told him it can be either a weakness OR it can be a strength, depending on how he chooses to integrate, balance, control, utilize, develop and perceive, said quality, CONSCIOUSLY. Know self. EDIT: referencing Lex’s inquiry at around the 49min mark.
Connie Criscitello - yes exactly, and not acknowledging them and not educating ourselves on how so many become that way is why, I believe, there’s so much psychopathy running rampant and free, in our world, today. I feel like we need to deeply understand the root causes of these problems. We need to acknowledge their existence in order to get to those root causes. But that’s a terrifying prospect. No one wants to do it and I understand why. But we still need to.
Great conversation. I appreciate Naimark’s honest assessment and Lex’s appeal to love. It’s a battle to find character to overcome the savagery that lives in everyone. Thanks
Listening to this after Russian invasion of Ukraine. I appreciate how Prof. Naimark skeptically keeps pushing back at Lex's repeated intuitions that love will win in the end. Even if 90% of people in the world were to choose love but the 10% who actually run the world choose greed, power and destruction to feed their egos, then all that love is cancelled out. I can admire Lex's dogged belief in the goodness of people. But in a practical sense, one paranoid power-hungry madman in charge can make a decision that will nullify it all. It's like if all the workers in an office were enlightened and positive but the CEO and VP weren't and then just set fire to the building. Then what? it is truly depressing.
Naimark's description of Stalin as an extraordinarily competent and hard-working person is exactly right. His biographer, Stephen Kotkin, would agree I think. Has Lex had Kotkin on? If not, he should some time.
Wow!! What an incredible talk! I have listened to it twice now and I am amazed by how much I come away feeling to have learned. ….just by listening to one 2-hour talk between two people. This just serves to illustrate how powerful something as simple as that can be when it’s the right to people and the right topic. I am amazed..
I enjoyed this interview if that is the right word and this is my first visit to this site, I will be back. Evidence points towards greater incidence of genocide even by people that have suffered themselves going on to commit atrocities on other people! The greatest genocide is yet to happen where politicians believe they can survive a nuclear war! I would point to the current position the UK and the USA and NATO hold to attempt to obliterate the Russian people. The average Western citizen has been whipped up into a state of mass hysteria regarding the Russian people. This hatred can be easily invoked by the use of propaganda in a very short time, a means that was not available until recently. The reasons for genocide can change for example there are people that believe in eugenics and want to reduce the human population to improve the quality of the human livestock in order to make the world a better place for themselves. My glass is half full and I don’t hold out much optimism for the future sorry!
Watching your podcast, JRE, Huberman Lab, and Jordan Peterson has been slowly changing me from being angry, resentful, and universally critical to being more understanding, grateful, yet still skeptical. This episode hit really hard. It's crazy to think how warped our view of reality can become when we're so sheltered by the greatness of our ancestors and legends of the past. I'm so thankful for this incredible country and the opportunity it provides for leaders like yourself and others to explore and illuminate the darkness in order for us to understand ourselves and the world better. Everyone has a self-critic inside them but don't ever let that motherfucker trick you, you're seriously changing the world. Much love and thanks to you and your guests!
Outstanding questions from Lex here, great interview! As someone who has read a bit about Stalin and Mao, I found this interview absolutely fascinating. On the Stalin part of the interview - I would have been interested to hear Naimark's views on how Stalin's criminal gangster past influenced the shaping of the man in absolute power. Because as a lamen on this subject, I have tended to view Stalin as a psychopathic gangter who (partly) got lucky to rise to power. As I understand it, Trotsky was dead against Stalin when Lenin was in power, because he saw Stalin as a crude, violent, peasant thug. From my limited understanding it seems that Stalin got lucky when Lenin gave him a prominent role in the party which enabled him to maneouvre against Trosky when Lenin died. I would have been interested in understanding more about this dynamic. But this kind of interview is really important for Gen Z-ers to hear, given the current moves in western countries to politically and culturally internalise the watering down of democracy and individual rights/sovereignties.
I agree. Here in the US we need to hold onto our freedom and democracy with both hands. Also to quit apologizing for our unfortunate mistakes. Because we are a FREE nation we are FREE to come above and do better as we have been doing in great strides that benefit the whole world.
We are still struggling so here u go. The solution to everything: Every problem we have now focuses around the overuse of force on eachother. Force is only to be used to stop harm. Every time we go beyond what is needed to stop harm we create more of an entrenched system for control in our reality.
It is usually wrong methods for wrong reasons and in the wrong circumstances. Take systems of fines destroying trust in state bodies. The Cuban missile crisis was very similar to Russia and NATO. Also the invasion of Grenada. All involve ego, perceived threat and trust, unfortunately many don't have good skills when dealing with these areas, nor the willingness to create international frameworks.
To bad Lex that the naive optimist in you, your view of the technology you believe will deliver modernity from the reality of history, will always be in service to the social/political
We left USSR 42 years ago mostly because the “window” opened but also due to the party tyranny. You had so many chances to draw a parallel and ask your guest about tyranny of the wokeness in which we are drowning now just like we did in USSR or maybe even worse since there were no omnipotent media there.
This is one of my favorite episodes. I feel like many of the world's problems would be solved if the two of you had a forum on the world's stage with all the leaders. Lex, you give me hope.
This was probably a very difficult interview Lex. Two people, of different generations with vastly different perspectives. I think there are some excellent points made on both sides. I personally love interviews like this. I like this interview in particular because its uncomfortable.
I'm siding with your guest, Lex. Technology is improving at huge speed but human nature remains the same, and that's why history repeats itself over and over again, only in a little different context and setting each time.
And all the while poverty, war, and human suffering has decreased. If human nature remains the same over time which variable is producing the apparent improvement in the human condition?
@@jjdemaria Well, we are gradually taming our nature. Think of it as social evolution. The very first humans were much more violent, less able to control their impulses or to be reasoned with. This is nature. We can't delete it from ourselves, not without significant further "evolution". We can tame it and try to not repeat the same mistakes. The problem is, we're very social, tribal animals. Individuals have the full capacity for great intellect and reasoning and restraint of their impulses. Once you have a collective of people, this becomes almost impossible to manage. That's how you get the worst atrocities of humankind. An individual can only do so much evil, it's the collective behind him that allows for it to happen. I don't know what the solution is. We will probably go through many cycles until we manage to finally come together. That is the nature of conflict and progress. Or we won't and we will perish in some grand catastrophe.
@@jjdemaria Technology makes our lives easier and more convenient of course which softens many of the rough edges. But people are still hunter-gatherers at heart, they are still tribal. So the potential for conflicts and even wars is always there, if there's a major crisis that will trigger it. Just see the social media where people go totally crazy and extremely hateful over trivial things all the time. When shit really hits the fan, people quickly become savages again. Just like in the "Lord of the Flies". That's what the professor is talking about. Plus, even if your country is all loving and peaceful, there can always be a neighboring country that wants to take over your land for whatever reason because they simply don't care about your values.
Lex, I loved your rejoinder to Norman after he tactlessly called you naive. You were still polite, unlike him. Norman could have said simply that he was afraid you were being overly optimistic about our future, given what he knows of history. Your later response charmingly smoothed things over . Touche!
This guy has the best guests on the web. It’s a shame he seems to learn very little from them. He literally knows very very little of what is actually going on in the world.
Well, there was Russia Federation when the Czars ruled but then came the Bolsheviks, then came the downfall of Communism - Reagan era, then came Putin which abhores the Bolsheviks!! That's the short story!
The Soviets won W.W.II by losing millions of humans on the Eastern front up to Berlin and American exceptionalism which celebrates how American and British forces with the D-Day invasion won on the Western Atlantic Wall front beat the German Blitzkrieg and the Battle of the Bulge at Bastogne in reality the Russians defeated the Wehrmacht from the East to the West
Without material form west, slave labor and general brutality, they could not get half the europe. Soviets were not only victors and every country including mine, they "freed" from germans lost.
Great interview, I liked it very much. Only one comment, I think we make a mental fallacy the moment we assume the mass murder of a given amount of people is far worse in the case those people share some genetic traits, rather than being a random subset of the population. I believe communism and all authoritarian ideologies are intrinsic murderous. There will always be a part of the population that will not submit to whatever a central institution forces them to do, will not be willing to lose their rights, property and independence no matter what ideology justifies them. The moment you try to force those people to comply there is no way to subdue them if not with violence, and that is what happened over and over through history. Whether those people happen to all have red hair and freckles, or to be a totally randomised set, should not make a difference from judging and condemning the violence they are subject to.
I did not know it is possible to make videos on RUclips with talking without expression. This is different, I like it far better than the typical melodramatic way of talking in videos.
What lex describes as ‘the little flame’ is true but sadly it’s little compared to a larger majority that upholds the tyrants. I’m not sure if he read her but I was very impressed with Corrie ten boom and her family. Quiet heroes who did the right thing
Lex was really annoying in this one. Norman clearly keeps restating that he does not believe love prevails or blossoms in times of hardship, yet Lex keeps repeating that because he believes it. I also do not like how Lex talks for like 5 minutes straight at times. Let Norman speak.
One thing I find in conversations about the houlacost, is the omission of the fact that 3.5 million Poles were sent to their death also,I have read many books and articles on this,and it seems that the only thing said about the Poles, and Slovaks ,were they had helped Jews during this genocide. But hardly any mention of them being the target of the German government also. 🤔
As someone who looked past how crazy Hitler sounded and really became a terrible person for a while. His rhetoric was perfect for the time Germany faced. He keyed in to every single issue that one state faced and gave them hope they could break out. That's the real scare. The person who can lay out the problem that is very real, and then convince that the answer is one thing.
Lex is a brilliant interviewer and intellectual. I wish I didn't take so long to take the time to listen to him. I think it's because if you just listen to his voice without watching the video he sounds like the guy from the movie Pineapple Express
Yeah, to think an historian can't see the great wealth and prosperity of the past 100 years and not attribute these positive benefits to capitalism. He's a complete luddite.
@@jonfungg Germany was nationalist socialist dictatorship, the German people gave their government full power. The government dictated and controlled the people by limiting rights to certain groups and religions (the unclean and dirty), while the majority were convinced of the virtues of this segregation.
This conversation is a great example of why its dangerous to follow the "trust the experts" mentality. Mr. Naimark is a brilliant man who commands a great deal of respect and attention with his knowledge, however even he is not immune to histrionics when it comes to figures he finds distasteful like Donald Trump. To compare the riot on January 6th to an actual uprising is ridiculous on its face, and a man as versed in history as Mr. Naimark must know that on some level. I implore everyone who thinks I am mistaken to look up the Libyan revolution of 2011, the maidan revolution of 2014 and the turkish coup of 2016 to get an Idea of what genuine violent revolution looks like and why lumping Jan 6th in to that category is intellectually dishonest. I do not write this to disparage Mr. Naimark and certainly not Mr. Fridman, but rather to illustrate the point that we are all humans with our own biases and therefor must be challenged on our assertions no matter our position in the institutional hierarchy.
You are absolutely mistaken actually. The country and the society where these things happen must be taken into account. What Trump pulled off in the US of 2020 is absolutely comparable to the events you mentioned. On the same page all the racial tension the leftists have created in your country is also extremely dangerous. In a country like US with that strong of a constitution, with this separation of powers you should be worried for what's happening. It is not small and will not end well.
@@iluvatarchem I disagree completely. The definition of a coup does not change because it's politically advantageous to do so. Conservative Republicans are the most heavily armed civilians on planet Earth, yet they attempted to overthrow the government without using their vast arsenals? Why weren't there attempts to take over news stations, police stations and other government buildings? Why didn't Trump call in loyal military to help him take over? Why did the insurrectionist back off when Ashley Babbitt was murdered rather than unleash the arsenal of weapons the FBI claims the rioters had? It was a riot, and a rather peaceful one considering the bar BLM and Antifa set during the "summer of love". Hate Trump all you want, as Mr Naimark obviously does, but you don't get to stretch the definition of coup based on likeability of the subject.
The hopes for the future section starts as one of the best debates i have ever witnessed both in terms of respect for the other and for clear care and quality of the educations backing the arguments very passionate then it comes to a wholesome conclusion that. i will think about this podcast for the rest of my life.
It's not just translating Russian where a lot is lost in translation indeed, I think that's in part because of culture guiding our attention and thus our delineations of nuance
This was great conversation, very valuable to me. However, Lex seems a bit naive. If you imagine yourself standing in line for the gas chamber or firing squad, with your children by your side, knowing that they will die and you can't do anything about it... it would be hard to beleive that the love will prevail. Also, I was in Yugoslavia falling apart. Saw all the hate and violence from the first hand. I don't see anything positive in belonging to a nation anymore. I see positives in being a part of humankind, but being a part of nation means that you are excluding people from different nation from your group. So I may not identify with Lex'es positive attitude towards being Russian or American. However, I like his style and his guests alot. He is very positive guy. I wish the world was really as he would like it to be.
@@cole310 You are right, the same life circumstances may cause dispair for one person and satisfaction for another, it's the matter of expectations and mental strength. I would support your view when it comes to living life day to day. However, when it comes to the decision making, the realism is quite useful tool. Making decisions based on the view done via the pink glasses may easily bring you to catastrophic consequences. Catious realism is usualy the best strategy for success.
With all the censorship, it was getting hard to find anything interesting online. It seemed like everything was either official propaganda, or else the occasional conspiracy theory. I was almost giving up searching, but recently I found some truly intellectual and interesting youtube channels, especially this one. Lex Fridman is doing an amazing job creating these podcasts.
"Here we have one overdressed naive optimist and one brilliant nevertheless technologically naive cynic. And we dont know whether the capacity for good or the capacity for evil wins out in the end." Gosh, that's nicely put Lex.
Lex Friedman I think this gentleman possibly exposed one of the biggest issues with being a historian. He explains in detail, how his lack of optimism for continued circles of humanity has led them to lose faith in us. If you study real history in depth instead of only focusing on the brod spectrum as they do. On top of never really living these situations they study, or is always looking in from the outside. Perspective shows the underlying paths people have taken. He's missing a lot and they get payed to much to miss as much as they do.. #LexFriedman
Naimark is talking about starvation in Tigray and Ethiopia, and Lex starts on about romantic love? A typical american, no bearings at all..he completely misunderstands what point Naimark is making: the point is that by saying it is harder to love when you're starving I understood it as meaning that circumstances make you suffer more than normal because you love; in fact you need to know more about love in adverse circumstances, not less
Lex Q1: “Did Stalin believe that communism is good, not just for him but for the people of the Soviet Union and the people of the world?” Norman A1: “Oh, absolutely… …he absolutely thought it was in the interests of the Soviet Union and of the world.” Norman A2: “…he was completely indifferent to the suffering of others. He couldn’t have cared a wit.” My Q (for Norman): How does one reconcile A1 with A2?
...well, of course, where can we go "without genocide" ... just here's a little fact: The eight-hour day or 40-hour week movement, also known as the short day movement, was a social movement aimed at regulating the duration working day, prevention of excesses and abuses. Robert Owen raised the requirement for a ten-hour day in 1810 and introduced it at his socialist enterprise in New Lanark. By 1817, he formulated the goal of an eight-hour day and came up with the slogan: "Eight hours of work, eight hours of rest and recreation, eight hours of sleep." In 1847, women and children in England were given a ten-hour day. French workers achieved the 12-hour day after the February Revolution of 1848. Shorter working hours and better working conditions were part of the general protests and agitation for the Chartist reforms and early unionization. The First International considered the question of the eight-hour day at its congress in Geneva in 1866, stating, "The legal limitation of the working day is the condition without which all further attempts to improve the condition and emancipate the working class will fail" and "The Congress proposes eight hours as a legal working hours restrictions. After the October Revolution, the matter acquired a general character. On November 11 (October 29, old style), 1917, a separate decree of the Council of People's Commissars in the RSFSR established an eight-hour working day (instead of nine to ten hours, as it was before) and introduced a 48-hour working week with one day off. Reduced working hours were envisaged in industries that were especially harmful to health. On December 10, 1918, the Labor Code of the RSFSR came into force, enshrining these provisions. I can give you an example of the "merciless exploitation of child labor" in mines, factories and factories, in the "legal states of the civilized West" ... Child labor is very profitable and therefore in the capitalist system, aimed at obtaining as much profit as possible , was extremely common. This category of citizens could be paid significantly less. Of course, the situation in the rest of the world was little different. Here is the data from the American Bureau of Labor in 1904, the average earnings of a laborer in terms of rubles per month was: in the United States - 71 rubles. (with 56 working hours per week); in England - 41 rubles. (with 52.5 working hours per week); in Germany - 31 rubles. (with 56 working hours per week); in France - 43 rubles. (with 60 working hours per week); in Russia - from 10 rubles. up to 25 rubles (with 60-65 working hours per week). And the labor of minors and women was valued even lower ... After all, this is not a "genocide", compared to an eight-hour working day in Soviet Russia ...
Thank you for doing these very informative and thoughtful interviews. I just discovered your podcasts in the last week and have already subscribed because I find them valuable. You might try making more eye contact with your guests and/or your audience rather than looking all over the room when you speak. It would better communicate confidence and honesty. Just a suggestion because I'd like your interviews to be seen by as many people as possible.
Here are the timestamps. Please check out our sponsors to support this podcast.
0:00 - Introduction & sponsor mentions:
- Coinbase: coinbase.com/lex to get $5 in free Bitcoin
- Quip: getquip.com/lex to get first refill free
- Eight Sleep: www.eightsleep.com/lex and use code LEX to get special savings
- NetSuite: netsuite.com/lex to get free product tour
- ExpressVPN: expressvpn.com/lexpod and use code LexPod to get 3 months free
0:20 - Stalin and absolute power
14:17 - Dictators and genocide
38:43 - What is genocide
48:50 - Human nature and suffering
1:18:35 - Mao's Great Leap Forward
1:25:49 - North Korea
1:29:42 - Our role in fighting against atrocities
1:38:38 - China
1:42:47 - Hopes for the future and technology
1:57:40 - Advice for young people
2:00:27 - Love and tragedy
How are you going to talk about Genocide without mentioning the most successful genocide in recent history the Native Americans? Very biased. There are legitimate critiques of Soviet Union. This isn’t it.
Lex can you get an expert in Japanese history on someday to discuss the sengoku period it was a period of war that lasted a 100 years between the samurai clans it’s fascinating
i really like Norman Naimark i love his honesty thanks for the episode lex .
@@flurnsdale3929 Thank you for your note. Just to add my two cents -- three ethnic groups fell victims of the famine -- Kazakhs, Ukrainians, Russians, which means the motifs of the famine were not ethnicity-driven. It was about industrialization and exchange of grains for machinery and technologies where the west, mostly the US, won't accept any other form of payment, but grains and gold.
@@evawind the definition of genocide is discussed in the podcast. Quoted as “the intentional destruction of an ethnic, national, racial or religious group”. It doesn’t need to be an ethnic group. Here, it would be three national groups under the Soviet Union. They were intentionally targeted and viewed as lesser than other components of the union.
„One overdressed naïve optimist” - Lex, you’re a brilliant man! 😂 Your podcasts have become an integral part of my life. You’re such a powerhouse of a human.
Thank you Lex.My family is from Ukraine and never spoke of those days.Your guest is opening up my eyes to the sad part of our history.Thank you so much Norman Naimark
my family is ukranian and thats literally all my grandparents talk about. completely mentally destroyed by these dictators until the day they died over in canada.. hows your day baba? ... answer., do you know what is world war 2? .... on repeat ever single day.. like they are still trapped in the hell of it all. never to be free again so sad
This is a perfect time to learn more about human behavior on a national level.
@ozmartian rational, there's a concept which seems to be severely lacking currently. Rational rationale...
With all due respect, years ago was the far better time to learn about this.
We would have treated this like the flu it that turned out to be, instead of revealing so many to be go-along-get-along bootlicking NPCs.
@@shaft9000 agreed 👍
Wow, so amazing to see Professor Naimark nearly 40 years after taking his course on Russia in college!
Lucky man.
Luck, probably, had little to do with it. Naimark is a professor at Stanford- the majority of students that gain entry to Stanford, Harvard, Yale , etc. come from the American ruling class, or business class, same thing really. You could say “ruling class” is more a generational thing if you wanted to differentiate between new money business moguls
@@darktagmaster1861 He wasn’t a professor at Stanford nearly 40 years ago.
@@darktagmaster1861 Shut up man
i was thinking the exact same thing, lol
Lex's reaction to the pessimism of his guest is so admirable. God bless you Lex. I hope most people have a strong flame of love in their hearts that would usually overcome the garbage the world throws at them. I hope you are right Lex. I truly do.
I’m a recent convert to the Lex Fridman podcast. What a wealth of insight!
Lex must never forget Joe Rogan helped make him
Ye and what a wealth of one sided propergander
You got lots of content to catch up on.
Welcome to the party my brother
@@puneet7768 How about...I quote,you can shoot anyone who are looking for food, people were eating there own kids , body's piled up like Belson.. Thats not propaganda come on.
It's so funny how Lex keep trying to have hope in humanity “but the flame”, but the professor just goes “nah son, we're scum, I'm tellin ya“ and just utterly destroys every hope. 😂
😂😂
Utilitarian ideology does that to people
He popped the bubble.
We are rapidly descending the path of total destruction.....
To think that there will never be another genocide is just blind naive hope. Knowing what we know about Homo Sapiens that is a zero % possibility. There will also be lots of beautiful actions and heroic ones but one day, sure as night follows day, there will be another warlord who preys on the vulnerable.
I’d love to see a three way between these two with Jordan Peterson. A lot of people don’t know this but Peterson started in Political Science but after getting his Polly Sci degree he switched to psychology. He did this because he was seeking answers about the Holocaust and the tragedy in the USSR as to how could this have happened and determined it was more of a psychological question than a political one. Much of his early research centred around these issues.
0:12
0:31
The Lex Fridman podcast is quickly becoming my favorite podcast, great work Lex, love your choice of guests and questions.
Shame on you, but in spite of your ridiculous babble, in the presence of your an intelligent expression, here is my sincere advice to you. In my opinion, you need to better study the phenomenon of that time, and that era. In more detail, without partiality, immerse yourself in the deeds of all the then leaders and heads of state in order to come out in relation to one of them, in particular Stalin, with such a verdict and such judgments. But let's admit it, you won't do that. By doing so, you fall out of the modern trend, aimed at defiling and discrediting the very idea of building a "no-class society" where "man to man is friend, comrade and brother" You, with your " stupidity and ignorance", "prepare the ground for world fascism". Based on your age, you will probably get away with it, but "thankful society" will remember "your" names...
I love that lex is so optimistic, but I sadly agree with some of his guests that we are not evolved enough to handle the tools we have created.
So true
yeah, a lot of people thought we reached that point at the beginning of the 20th century, then after WW1, then after WW2, then after the cold war...
True
@@lucianboar3489 Each time I would say we were a bit lucky that it was not even worse but it was certainly horrific. However the tech gets more powerful as time goes on and at some point I have to agree.
I’m also cringing that he’s so enamoured with people like Musk, calling them visionaries, creators. Tech alone will not save the world.
These two men make me proud to be a human. What could anyone possibly add to this conversation? it seems to me they cover the entire spectrum of thought and feeling.
Mandatory lethal injections could urgently be added to this politically correct conversation.
you know so little then ..
@olivegrovebear Says the misanthrope. Knowledge is not measured in quantity. You remind me of an opinion. If you have something constructive to say let's hear it.
@@mauricemorning I apologize I didn't listen to the stream , I'm automatic disqualified . its only these type of guests / topics. in MY past experience here , has always been less than authentic and more misleading with historical fact , may I stress not all interviews but most for me . I love honest dynamic conversation between knowledgeable people .. that disqualifies me from being a misanthrope . Is the word democide more appropriate here , I truly believe it is ... if you haven't witnessed democide over the past years , one has been living under the rock . I will listen to the stream now and I already hear omissions of fact . But I already enjoy the guest . thank you good sir
@olivegrovebear Yes, democide is the right word, and no, I have not witnessed it so I apologize. I too will watch again and look for deceit. I do know how evil leaders always cloak themselves under veils of decency.
My mom lived through the Nazi occupation of the Netherlands. Neighbors who once were friendly and normal became informants and told the Nazis who was hiding Jews. After the war they acted like nothing had happened and they did nothing wrong.
@@djvincekline7338 it’s all of the above. Some people probably enjoyed ratting on people. Some people would hide people, some would just not say anything, some would actively speak out.
@@weignerleigner3037 And I am pretty sure that this is exactly how it would happen again.
There's nothing like a Lex history podcast. Can't wait for more episodes like this one 😍😍😍
Lex has got at least one book in him, if only the current position of his personal philosophy and how his experiences with these long form conversations has molded them.
Toward 2:05:00 when the topic of intensity of love and care in times of struggle came up, the book Click by Ori and Rom Brafman came to mind. In their book, the brothers evaluate what they call magical interactions (conversations where you both vibe/resonate, where things just 'click'). One of the five main factors they note is a shared framework, especially frameworks of challenging times. I think why people develop seemingly more intense feelings in these types of relationships is because of trust. While trauma bonding could be a part of it, the more profound thing I think is that when you know you can trust a person in tense times, you know you can trust them in good ones. Sure people can change after those situations, but the general notion of trust is profound. Thanks for yet another stellar conversation.
Excellent point, as the old Jew put it 'whoever is faithful with very little will also be faithful with much!'
The darker aspect that I took from Norm is that even this approximation of trustworthiness is simplistic - there's a funny anecdote by Saul Bellow in Mr. Samler's Planet where he's saved by an Anti-Semitic Polish man, significance being his Jewishness. Its a cognitive strategy; life is almost unbearable lived on the ''case-by-case" basis. Its far more efficient to assume poorly dressed African-American males in sketchy situations are most likely criminals than to give them the benefit of the doubt. Kyrie eleison!
The idea that one man, in Germany, USSR, Cambodia, North Korea etc. Could single handedly commit these atrocities is ridiculous.
The people of these countries allowed them and actively participated in them through their morality. They were morally bankrupt. I can't imagine eating another human being let alone my own children.
We, as a people must have a sense of morality or we'll allow evil men to rise up.
1:14:00 Uhhh, that's dangerous thinking and a-historical. Germany was an advanced, if not the most advanced country (also most open minded in many regards) at the advent of the holocaust. The 9/11 terrorists were academics, law students, teachers, aeronautic students etc., Mao tried his hands on multiple different higher education schools only to become an autodidact at the local library, Hitler aspired to study, Stalin started at a religious collage, Mengele sang operas during his experiments and most (if not almost all) of the "middle management" of the German and Japanese perpetrators of genocide went not only scot-free but enjoyed long careers in the Soviet Union and USA for being valuable and highly educated assets. Imagine a //insert a person of a persecuted group// deep diving into the history of the genocides of his people - will it inspire hope or hatred? Now make him charismatic because he is studying psychology or theater. Let him find a highly paid job or nice party position... what will you end up with? A Gandhi or a Pol-Pot? Is it still a coin flip? Chinese leadership is almost entirely made up of engineers and China's youth fights fist and nail to enroll into university... yet, still the Uighurs are getting wiped out slowly but surely. Fuck look at Cesar, a person that enjoyed the highest education possible at the time. and his kill count of Gauls. Education comes with rationality and "the ultimate victory of rationality were the death factories of the holocaust" (I forgot who wrote that but it stuck with me).
I love the way the professor contrasts the naive view of the future from Lex.
59:41 I think you guys overlook the power of propaganda when it comes to Hitler's regime. I think if it were not for Goebbels, Hitler's influence over Germany may not have been nearly as fanatical. It was kind of the first time in history when propaganda, radio and striking imagery were used in concert to such great effect. You can even see this in the German postage stamps between 1933-45. Today we are swimming in propaganda in many forms so it's much more difficult to rally large groups of people together for a single unified cause, at least in the case of the USA. It also a great way to promote and perpetuate the lowest mode humans can operate in - tribalism. The Taliban have used propaganda to great effect. I think without that power of propaganda Hitler may have just kept screaming at the wall without much actually happening.
Also, the influence of the wealthy and the occult... The Thule society was instrumental in the formation of the Nazi party, as was their beliefs in underground civilizations, extraterrestrial civilizations, and other occult beliefs.
In other words, Hitler was selected by these occult societies, as well as even groomed by the Jesuits of the Vatican.
A Catholic Jesuit helped Hitler write Mein Kampf.
@@jeremyt4292 Yes yes!!!! I think the supernatural is never brought into these conversations bc people are scared to say anything in reference to it.
Even this man was hesitant to talk on the subject of morality.
Also, through the human journey, the powers of the supernatural or unseen realm, has had the upper hand of being invisible.
It’s an invisible hand that has always been involved, on the ground with the human family.
Think of the story about the 2 angels that come to Sodome & Gamorah to warn the family of faithful believers.
Think of the angels (GEN:6) that come down and take wives for themselves.
There’s an element of the supernatural in these men throughout history.
All the killers and genocides that has transpired.
All that loss of life.
Famines, wars, droughts, fire, genocides, floods… so much death.
Taliban = students of Stalin, Mussolini, Hitler and Mao (himself a student of S, M and H), with the added benefits of social media.
I agree. Have you listened to what Jordan Peterson has to say about tribalism/
Let's keep in mind Stalin was a Georgian not a Russian and his field general in Ukraine during the Holodomor was Genrikh Yagoda an Ukrainian ...
Lex Fridman - fast becoming King of podcasts! Always great guests, and great questions!
Great work Lex and I appreciate your ability to be a great listener and the questions you ask, which really brings out the best conversation with your guests. Keep up the good work, stay humble as your podcast grows and we are looking forward to your next episode. 😊
Thank you for everything you do, Lex. At least in your case, love did conquer all. You're a wonderful human being.
another great episode, thanks a lot Lex!
Have you ever considered having a Buddhist monk or some scholar of Buddhism on? I think that would make for a great conversation, especially with your interest regarding suffering and the meaning of life.
i second this.
He can have scholars from every major religion on cause they all have to say alot of deep things about suffering and the meaing of life.
@@calistafalcontail but mostly about suffering :))
@@calistafalcontail No not scholars of all religions that would be lame, just Buddhism.
Oriental religion is an intellectual lobotomy that rejects mans focused mind.
Very interesting as usual, Mr Fridman. I would be interested in hearing a similar interview today, after the invasion of Ukraine..
This is the kind of talk I want to listen more of in your podcast.
He reminds me the father of the protagonist of the movie The Pianist. If any of you never watched The Pianist i will suggest that you are missing something lifechanging .. DO watch
Watching this a little late. It's so interesting to hear with the last month of recent history. 💙💛💙💛 Hoping for more positive outcomes in the future and praying for those who are suffering now.
I like when Lex stands his ground like a boss 😎
I hope he really holds his own with the Pfizer fuck
My Name Jeff - whaaaat? He’s going to interview a pfizerling!?!? Oooh, do I ever wanna see THAT!
@@janeofthejungle4 THE Pfizer man, no less.. I hope he consults Bret Weinstein beforehand
@@mynamejeff2006 what is the name of the "pfizer man" ?
@@Humanaut. Albert Bourla I believe
I'm halfway into the episode and I have to say this is a heavy one. It's discouraging and depressing to hear how pessimistic Naimark is about human nature although I guess not surprising given the type of work he does. Once again, I appreciate the hell out of Lex for trying to bring the light and focus on the good parts of the human spirit. Individuals like him that remind us that it is possible to live from a place of love and that we can choose to do so on a daily basis. The world changes when we all choose to live better as individuals.
History is on Norms side, sadly. Lex's exuberance and hope is to be cherished; the adults* in the room however know like Norm said that monsters lurk beneath the surface. Absolutely fantastic interview!
@@Kobe29261 A little dismissive
@@josiahclarke3535 Perhaps you misunderstood me but no matter. We must all live in hope of loves victory. That was Sartres point.
@@Kobe29261 Saying "the adults in the room" is the dismissive part. Makes it seem that people who have faith in humanity are naive or child-like.
Lex this was incredibly powerful...so well done and beautifully communicated on both parts. I continue to be enthralled in these incredibly important conversations you are so graciously bringing to the world. Thank you.
You're arrival is timely Lex. We're in interesting times sure as shit. The interviews by you and other's around the world appear to teach two fundamental lessons; individual sovereignty beats national sovereignty, and God is Love. Fuzz
One of my favorites. Thanks for everything, Lex!
Lex seems so young and naive here. Love is irrelevant when people are dying of hunger
imo not really... i mean there where even more people dying if there was no love at all. what about all the people that share with others in time of need. there's so much good done in the name of love today, even if it's not much compared to the suffering it is still something and it would be irrational to deny it.
Completely agree, where is the meaning when you and your family are illiterate, starving, have no knowledge of the outside world and are tortured to death. Suffering while working on a machine learning project or going for a run is incomparable to the aforementioned horrendous, meaningless suffering experienced by the victims of history.
true love is more powerful then hunger,but it is rare
@@patrickhiggins9633 exactly. I found Lex's petulant idealism galling and childish in this interview. real suffering and atrocities need to be taken seriously and confronted, not waved away with vague gestures at 'love' and the innovation gods.
Exactly. He’s immersed in the false utopia the West tries by any means to create. Which subsequently destroys it on the world stage.
I feel like the reason people sometimes hate others or groups of others, is due to their deeply held feelings/beliefs of lack and unworthiness. Due to those unacknowledged deep, dark feelings, those who hate, seem to do so because they’re mindlessly letting out parts of themselves they’re hiding from themselves, unwittingly. They feel powerless and unworthy of power, so they coldly take it from others. They feel alone and in pain, so they coldly inflict pain onto others. When people bring pain and terror into the collective reality, I believe it’s because it can no longer be contained within them. People typically aren’t even aware of these parts of themselves.
Throughout my life I’ve noticed people almost always reject those parts of themselves and in doing so, they also reject SO MANY of their amazing and beautiful qualities! Every negative can also be a positive (like two sides of a coin) but if you suppress either one, you’ll get neither. I was conversing with an INTJ the other day, who said his intense drive and perfectionism is a weakness. I told him it can be either a weakness OR it can be a strength, depending on how he chooses to integrate, balance, control, utilize, develop and perceive, said quality, CONSCIOUSLY. Know self.
EDIT: referencing Lex’s inquiry at around the 49min mark.
or in other words: they are psychopaths.
Connie Criscitello - yes exactly, and not acknowledging them and not educating ourselves on how so many become that way is why, I believe, there’s so much psychopathy running rampant and free, in our world, today. I feel like we need to deeply understand the root causes of these problems. We need to acknowledge their existence in order to get to those root causes. But that’s a terrifying prospect. No one wants to do it and I understand why. But we still need to.
Great conversation. I appreciate Naimark’s honest assessment and Lex’s appeal to love. It’s a battle to find character to overcome the savagery that lives in everyone. Thanks
Listening to this after Russian invasion of Ukraine. I appreciate how Prof. Naimark skeptically keeps pushing back at Lex's repeated intuitions that love will win in the end. Even if 90% of people in the world were to choose love but the 10% who actually run the world choose greed, power and destruction to feed their egos, then all that love is cancelled out. I can admire Lex's dogged belief in the goodness of people. But in a practical sense, one paranoid power-hungry madman in charge can make a decision that will nullify it all. It's like if all the workers in an office were enlightened and positive but the CEO and VP weren't and then just set fire to the building. Then what? it is truly depressing.
Naimark's description of Stalin as an extraordinarily competent and hard-working person is exactly right. His biographer, Stephen Kotkin, would agree I think. Has Lex had Kotkin on? If not, he should some time.
Great chemistry between these two. Quite a good conversation
I love your interviews, and you allow people to talk, and you listen. Great questions Lex.
Wow!! What an incredible talk!
I have listened to it twice now and I am amazed by how much I come away feeling to have learned.
….just by listening to one 2-hour talk between two people.
This just serves to illustrate how powerful something as simple as that can be when it’s the right to people and the right topic.
I am amazed..
Everyone should listen to this episode. Great insights into the worst of what humans have done to one another
Thank you so much for consistent quality content Lex
I enjoyed this interview if that is the right word and this is my first visit to this site, I will be back. Evidence points towards greater incidence of genocide even by people that have suffered themselves going on to commit atrocities on other people!
The greatest genocide is yet to happen where politicians believe they can survive a nuclear war! I would point to the current position the UK and the USA and NATO hold to attempt to obliterate the Russian people. The average Western citizen has been whipped up into a state of mass hysteria regarding the Russian people. This hatred can be easily invoked by the use of propaganda in a very short time, a means that was not available until recently.
The reasons for genocide can change for example there are people that believe in eugenics and want to reduce the human population to improve the quality of the human livestock in order to make the world a better place for themselves. My glass is half full and I don’t hold out much optimism for the future sorry!
The emotion on Lex's face at 21:25 hearing about what his relatives went through..dang
Yet he still thinks love prevails 🤣 as was said, he is young and naive
@@brandonmay3094 well...the USSR no longer exist , and Hitler put a bullet in his head....It seems to me like "love" prevailed
@@die4race no just the fairytale a bit longer
I saw rage, not compassion.
Watching your podcast, JRE, Huberman Lab, and Jordan Peterson has been slowly changing me from being angry, resentful, and universally critical to being more understanding, grateful, yet still skeptical. This episode hit really hard. It's crazy to think how warped our view of reality can become when we're so sheltered by the greatness of our ancestors and legends of the past. I'm so thankful for this incredible country and the opportunity it provides for leaders like yourself and others to explore and illuminate the darkness in order for us to understand ourselves and the world better. Everyone has a self-critic inside them but don't ever let that motherfucker trick you, you're seriously changing the world. Much love and thanks to you and your guests!
I agree but people like Jordan Peterson are opening the eyes of people for the good of mankind
Thank you, another fascinating interview .Another warning to each and everyone of us.🙃🤗
Outstanding questions from Lex here, great interview! As someone who has read a bit about Stalin and Mao, I found this interview absolutely fascinating. On the Stalin part of the interview - I would have been interested to hear Naimark's views on how Stalin's criminal gangster past influenced the shaping of the man in absolute power. Because as a lamen on this subject, I have tended to view Stalin as a psychopathic gangter who (partly) got lucky to rise to power. As I understand it, Trotsky was dead against Stalin when Lenin was in power, because he saw Stalin as a crude, violent, peasant thug. From my limited understanding it seems that Stalin got lucky when Lenin gave him a prominent role in the party which enabled him to maneouvre against Trosky when Lenin died. I would have been interested in understanding more about this dynamic. But this kind of interview is really important for Gen Z-ers to hear, given the current moves in western countries to politically and culturally internalise the watering down of democracy and individual rights/sovereignties.
I agree. Here in the US we need to hold onto our freedom and democracy with both hands. Also to quit apologizing for our unfortunate mistakes. Because we are a FREE nation we are FREE to come above and do better as we have been doing in great strides that benefit the whole world.
We are still struggling so here u go. The solution to everything:
Every problem we have now focuses around the overuse of force on eachother. Force is only to be used to stop harm. Every time we go beyond what is needed to stop harm we create more of an entrenched system for control in our reality.
It is usually wrong methods for wrong reasons and in the wrong circumstances. Take systems of fines destroying trust in state bodies.
The Cuban missile crisis was very similar to Russia and NATO. Also the invasion of Grenada. All involve ego, perceived threat and trust, unfortunately many don't have good skills when dealing with these areas, nor the willingness to create international frameworks.
To bad Lex that the naive optimist in you, your view of the technology you believe will deliver modernity from the reality of history, will always be in service to the social/political
👌🏼👌🏼👌🏼exactly
A podcast ready just in time for work. Thank you.
Just in time for my insomnia.
“You will have nothing and you will be happy”
Violence is a lot easier than sacrificial love. Thats why love is special and violence is common.
It would be interesting to invite Vaclav Smil for a conversation too. Your podcasts and the guests are amazing!
Yes to Smil
We left USSR 42 years ago mostly because the “window” opened but also due to the party tyranny.
You had so many chances to draw a parallel and ask your guest about tyranny of the wokeness in which we are drowning now just like we did in USSR or maybe even worse since there were no omnipotent media there.
I agree entirely. 'Woke-ness' is not what it appears to be.
ALL freedom ispecially fredom of speech is the only way for people to survive
This is one of my favorite episodes. I feel like many of the world's problems would be solved if the two of you had a forum on the world's stage with all the leaders. Lex, you give me hope.
yes let’s all go to Sugar Rock Candy Mountain
This was probably a very difficult interview Lex. Two people, of different generations with vastly different perspectives. I think there are some excellent points made on both sides.
I personally love interviews like this. I like this interview in particular because its uncomfortable.
HELLO👋HOW ARE YOU DOING TODAY💙💙WRITE💙💙ME💙💙ON💙💙WHATS💙💙APP💙💙⁺𝟏𝟓𝟕𝟎𝟑𝟒𝟓𝟗𝟏𝟏𝟖 ☜
Lex, you are wonderfully optimistic without resorting to religion. Referring to Pimker's books is good. You respect your guests.
Great recorded discussion thank you Lex and Mr. Niemark. Very insightful.
We usually see Lex asking questions but it's also beautiful to watch him defend his point. So passionate!
Lex is fascinated with dictators. I find them interesting and can always listen but he is utterly fascinated.
I'm siding with your guest, Lex.
Technology is improving at huge speed but human nature remains the same, and that's why history repeats itself over and over again, only in a little different context and setting each time.
And all the while poverty, war, and human suffering has decreased. If human nature remains the same over time which variable is producing the apparent improvement in the human condition?
@@jjdemaria Well, we are gradually taming our nature. Think of it as social evolution. The very first humans were much more violent, less able to control their impulses or to be reasoned with. This is nature. We can't delete it from ourselves, not without significant further "evolution". We can tame it and try to not repeat the same mistakes.
The problem is, we're very social, tribal animals. Individuals have the full capacity for great intellect and reasoning and restraint of their impulses. Once you have a collective of people, this becomes almost impossible to manage. That's how you get the worst atrocities of humankind. An individual can only do so much evil, it's the collective behind him that allows for it to happen.
I don't know what the solution is. We will probably go through many cycles until we manage to finally come together. That is the nature of conflict and progress.
Or we won't and we will perish in some grand catastrophe.
@@jjdemaria Technology makes our lives easier and more convenient of course which softens many of the rough edges. But people are still hunter-gatherers at heart, they are still tribal. So the potential for conflicts and even wars is always there, if there's a major crisis that will trigger it. Just see the social media where people go totally crazy and extremely hateful over trivial things all the time. When shit really hits the fan, people quickly become savages again. Just like in the "Lord of the Flies". That's what the professor is talking about. Plus, even if your country is all loving and peaceful, there can always be a neighboring country that wants to take over your land for whatever reason because they simply don't care about your values.
@@jjdemaria doesn’t matter I feel an evil growing inside and see it growing in others. We will not be able to evade it. Utopia is not an option.
@@brandonmay3094 - Frankie says relax.
Oh wow, this was before the war
Lex, I loved your rejoinder to Norman after he tactlessly called you naive. You were still polite, unlike him. Norman could have said simply that he was afraid you were being overly optimistic about our future, given what he knows of history. Your later response charmingly smoothed things over . Touche!
An important interview. Thanks to you both.
This guy has the best guests on the web. It’s a shame he seems to learn very little from them. He literally knows very very little of what is actually going on in the world.
Or he realizes life is complicated and nobody really has the answers
@@paulcassidy4559 agreed.
@@weignerleigner3037 Or he is fence sitting and avoids taking a stand on purpose.
Well, there was Russia Federation when the Czars ruled but then came the Bolsheviks, then came the downfall of Communism - Reagan era, then came Putin which abhores the Bolsheviks!! That's the short story!
Appreciate the learning and thank you for this broadcast perspective ✊🏾❤️❤️❤️✊🏾
The fact is genocide was the norm for human civilisation. After a foe was defeated the men were killed and the woman enslaved.
The Soviets won W.W.II by losing millions of humans on the Eastern front up to Berlin and American exceptionalism which celebrates how American and British forces with the D-Day invasion won on the Western Atlantic Wall front beat the German Blitzkrieg and the Battle of the Bulge at Bastogne in reality the Russians defeated the Wehrmacht from the East to the West
Without material form west, slave labor and general brutality, they could not get half the europe. Soviets were not only victors and every country including mine, they "freed" from germans lost.
Why can,t we agree that they both had a big part in ending the war?
Great interview, I liked it very much.
Only one comment, I think we make a mental fallacy the moment we assume the mass murder of a given amount of people is far worse in the case those people share some genetic traits, rather than being a random subset of the population. I believe communism and all authoritarian ideologies are intrinsic murderous. There will always be a part of the population that will not submit to whatever a central institution forces them to do, will not be willing to lose their rights, property and independence no matter what ideology justifies them. The moment you try to force those people to comply there is no way to subdue them if not with violence, and that is what happened over and over through history. Whether those people happen to all have red hair and freckles, or to be a totally randomised set, should not make a difference from judging and condemning the violence they are subject to.
I believe you are correct.
I did not know it is possible to make videos on RUclips with talking without expression. This is different, I like it far better than the typical melodramatic way of talking in videos.
What lex describes as ‘the little flame’ is true but sadly it’s little compared to a larger majority that upholds the tyrants. I’m not sure if he read her but I was very impressed with Corrie ten boom and her family. Quiet heroes who did the right thing
Lex was really annoying in this one. Norman clearly keeps restating that he does not believe love prevails or blossoms in times of hardship, yet Lex keeps repeating that because he believes it. I also do not like how Lex talks for like 5 minutes straight at times. Let Norman speak.
100% agree with you.
So they have different beliefs and both keep stating their belief. I believe Lex did a good job.
One thing I find in conversations about the houlacost, is the omission of the fact that 3.5 million Poles were sent to their death also,I have read many books and articles on this,and it seems that the only thing said about the Poles, and Slovaks ,were they had helped Jews during this genocide. But hardly any mention of them being the target of the German government also. 🤔
Are you by any chance Polish ? The holocaust was all about an evil man wanting to eliminate certain humans the majority of which were Jews.
As someone who looked past how crazy Hitler sounded and really became a terrible person for a while.
His rhetoric was perfect for the time Germany faced.
He keyed in to every single issue that one state faced and gave them hope they could break out.
That's the real scare.
The person who can lay out the problem that is very real, and then convince that the answer is one thing.
Holodomor doesn't get enough discussion, thank you Lex for initiating this episode
Lex is a brilliant interviewer and intellectual. I wish I didn't take so long to take the time to listen to him. I think it's because if you just listen to his voice without watching the video he sounds like the guy from the movie Pineapple Express
Lex, you are an excellent interviewer.
Very, very interesting. Thank you. “To have a chance we have to believe a better future is possible.” - Lex Fridman
can you imagine the balls of a man to look Lex Fridman in the eyes and call him naive of technology?
Yeah, to think an historian can't see the great wealth and prosperity of the past 100 years and not attribute these positive benefits to capitalism.
He's a complete luddite.
He has such a deep understanding of the past, yet such a lack of imagination about the future.
@@jonfungg absolutely. Say no to mandates. Ironically, the Germans said yes to mandates... they never learn!
@@jonfungg Germany was nationalist socialist dictatorship, the German people gave their government full power. The government dictated and controlled the people by limiting rights to certain groups and religions (the unclean and dirty), while the majority were convinced of the virtues of this segregation.
@@axiomic Capitalism or wage slavery?
This conversation is a great example of why its dangerous to follow the "trust the experts" mentality. Mr. Naimark is a brilliant man who commands a great deal of respect and attention with his knowledge, however even he is not immune to histrionics when it comes to figures he finds distasteful like Donald Trump. To compare the riot on January 6th to an actual uprising is ridiculous on its face, and a man as versed in history as Mr. Naimark must know that on some level. I implore everyone who thinks I am mistaken to look up the Libyan revolution of 2011, the maidan revolution of 2014 and the turkish coup of 2016 to get an Idea of what genuine violent revolution looks like and why lumping Jan 6th in to that category is intellectually dishonest. I do not write this to disparage Mr. Naimark and certainly not Mr. Fridman, but rather to illustrate the point that we are all humans with our own biases and therefor must be challenged on our assertions no matter our position in the institutional hierarchy.
You are absolutely mistaken actually.
The country and the society where these things happen must be taken into account.
What Trump pulled off in the US of 2020 is absolutely comparable to the events you mentioned.
On the same page all the racial tension the leftists have created in your country is also extremely dangerous.
In a country like US with that strong of a constitution, with this separation of powers you should be worried for what's happening. It is not small and will not end well.
@@iluvatarchem I disagree completely. The definition of a coup does not change because it's politically advantageous to do so. Conservative Republicans are the most heavily armed civilians on planet Earth, yet they attempted to overthrow the government without using their vast arsenals? Why weren't there attempts to take over news stations, police stations and other government buildings? Why didn't Trump call in loyal military to help him take over? Why did the insurrectionist back off when Ashley Babbitt was murdered rather than unleash the arsenal of weapons the FBI claims the rioters had? It was a riot, and a rather peaceful one considering the bar BLM and Antifa set during the "summer of love". Hate Trump all you want, as Mr Naimark obviously does, but you don't get to stretch the definition of coup based on likeability of the subject.
please add closed captions for this
The best show ever. never forget history. his-story
Includes some important context for current events
Way to stand up to his pessimism lex! Your statements about engineers building a brighter future was a strong counterpoint.
The hopes for the future section starts as one of the best debates i have ever witnessed both in terms of respect for the other and for clear care and quality of the educations backing the arguments very passionate then it comes to a wholesome conclusion that. i will think about this podcast for the rest of my life.
This podcast was fabulous, one of your very best.. Thank you.
It's not just translating Russian where a lot is lost in translation indeed, I think that's in part because of culture guiding our attention and thus our delineations of nuance
This was great conversation, very valuable to me. However, Lex seems a bit naive. If you imagine yourself standing in line for the gas chamber or firing squad, with your children by your side, knowing that they will die and you can't do anything about it... it would be hard to beleive that the love will prevail.
Also, I was in Yugoslavia falling apart. Saw all the hate and violence from the first hand. I don't see anything positive in belonging to a nation anymore. I see positives in being a part of humankind, but being a part of nation means that you are excluding people from different nation from your group. So I may not identify with Lex'es positive attitude towards being Russian or American.
However, I like his style and his guests alot. He is very positive guy. I wish the world was really as he would like it to be.
@@cole310 You are right, the same life circumstances may cause dispair for one person and satisfaction for another, it's the matter of expectations and mental strength. I would support your view when it comes to living life day to day.
However, when it comes to the decision making, the realism is quite useful tool. Making decisions based on the view done via the pink glasses may easily bring you to catastrophic consequences. Catious realism is usualy the best strategy for success.
Belonging to a nation is not bad but it should not be above all else. However, due to what you experienced, I can certainly not blame you.
Dennis McKenna needs a spot on this podcast
With all the censorship, it was getting hard to find anything interesting online. It seemed like everything was either official propaganda, or else the occasional conspiracy theory. I was almost giving up searching, but recently I found some truly intellectual and interesting youtube channels, especially this one. Lex Fridman is doing an amazing job creating these podcasts.
What a great conversation, which I finally got round to finish watching.
Thank you both so very much.
"Here we have one overdressed naive optimist and one brilliant nevertheless technologically naive cynic. And we dont know whether the capacity for good or the capacity for evil wins out in the end." Gosh, that's nicely put Lex.
Can we write a quick script for counting the number of times he says: “You Know” in this video..?
We are on that slippery slope now, but the sad thing is that most people can’t see it... Bad things are going to happen!
Lex Friedman I think this gentleman possibly exposed one of the biggest issues with being a historian. He explains in detail, how his lack of optimism for continued circles of humanity has led them to lose faith in us. If you study real history in depth instead of only focusing on the brod spectrum as they do. On top of never really living these situations they study, or is always looking in from the outside. Perspective shows the underlying paths people have taken. He's missing a lot and they get payed to much to miss as much as they do.. #LexFriedman
Naimark is talking about starvation in Tigray and Ethiopia, and Lex starts on about romantic love? A typical american, no bearings at all..he completely misunderstands what point Naimark is making: the point is that by saying it is harder to love when you're starving I understood it as meaning that circumstances make you suffer more than normal because you love; in fact you need to know more about love in adverse circumstances, not less
Lex Q1: “Did Stalin believe that communism is good, not just for him but for the people of the Soviet Union and the people of the world?”
Norman A1: “Oh, absolutely… …he absolutely thought it was in the interests of the Soviet Union and of the world.”
Norman A2: “…he was completely indifferent to the suffering of others. He couldn’t have cared a wit.”
My Q (for Norman): How does one reconcile A1 with A2?
He can't nor would he think it 'important' to do so.
...well, of course, where can we go "without genocide" ... just here's a little fact: The eight-hour day or 40-hour week movement, also known as the short day movement, was a social movement aimed at regulating the duration working day, prevention of excesses and abuses. Robert Owen raised the requirement for a ten-hour day in 1810 and introduced it at his socialist enterprise in New Lanark. By 1817, he formulated the goal of an eight-hour day and came up with the slogan: "Eight hours of work, eight hours of rest and recreation, eight hours of sleep." In 1847, women and children in England were given a ten-hour day. French workers achieved the 12-hour day after the February Revolution of 1848. Shorter working hours and better working conditions were part of the general protests and agitation for the Chartist reforms and early unionization. The First International considered the question of the eight-hour day at its congress in Geneva in 1866, stating, "The legal limitation of the working day is the condition without which all further attempts to improve the condition and emancipate the working class will fail" and "The Congress proposes eight hours as a legal working hours restrictions. After the October Revolution, the matter acquired a general character. On November 11 (October 29, old style), 1917, a separate decree of the Council of People's Commissars in the RSFSR established an eight-hour working day (instead of nine to ten hours, as it was before) and introduced a 48-hour working week with one day off. Reduced working hours were envisaged in industries that were especially harmful to health. On December 10, 1918, the Labor Code of the RSFSR came into force, enshrining these provisions. I can give you an example of the "merciless exploitation of child labor" in mines, factories and factories, in the "legal states of the civilized West" ... Child labor is very profitable and therefore in the capitalist system, aimed at obtaining as much profit as possible , was extremely common. This category of citizens could be paid significantly less. Of course, the situation in the rest of the world was little different. Here is the data from the American Bureau of Labor in 1904, the average earnings of a laborer in terms of rubles per month was:
in the United States - 71 rubles. (with 56 working hours per week);
in England - 41 rubles. (with 52.5 working hours per week);
in Germany - 31 rubles. (with 56 working hours per week);
in France - 43 rubles. (with 60 working hours per week);
in Russia - from 10 rubles. up to 25 rubles (with 60-65 working hours per week).
And the labor of minors and women was valued even lower ... After all, this is not a "genocide", compared to an eight-hour working day in Soviet Russia ...
Thank you for doing these very informative and thoughtful interviews. I just discovered your podcasts in the last week and have already subscribed because I find them valuable. You might try making more eye contact with your guests and/or your audience rather than looking all over the room when you speak. It would better communicate confidence and honesty. Just a suggestion because I'd like your interviews to be seen by as many people as possible.