Room correction is the most beneficial upgrade a person can do apart from the speakers themselves. Amps, DAC's and Cables are not even in the same conversation. Room correction provides incredible changes when done right. And with systems like DIRAC, they will correct both the frequency and time domain. And you can use these tools to tune the sound more to your liking. The purist mentality of stubborn, rich, old audiophiles needs to go away. That is why so many $200K+ systems sound like crap at audio shows. Yes, room treatment is extremely important, but it can be much more expensive and there are still limitations. Both treatment and correction should be used together. You absolutely need correction when it comes to bass which is the #1 enemy to a room. At a minimum, everyone should correct their bass region as it will never be flat, unless you use 4-8 subs. Dips and peaks of 5-15dB are usually the norm and not the exception. And like Paul said, you should never boost nulls. If you have a large dip, do not try and boost it.
All equalisers except linear phase will introduce phase shifts when applied. A low shelf eq adjustment will make the equalized portion of the audio slightly out of phase with the rest of the audio. Problems get worse when you start notching specific frequencies out. Linear phase eq will introduce distortion via its delay compensation that tries to put everything back in phase. This may effect things like depth and width of the audio. Although a dynamic eq can be used for time based resonances which also causes phase issues. Most dynamic eq cannot be set to match time based resonances within a room. Though I agree room treatment if possible, speaker placement and correct setup go a long way. Bass traps and broadband diffusion or absorption are cheap the a good quality eq. Eq should always be a last resort. Also there's a natural eq for lowend and it's called speaker placement, specifically speaker boundary interference response SBIR. This will act as the best eq you can use and it's free.
Paul, Having recently acquired a DSPeaker Dual-core 2.0 to experiment with active BASS room correction in my new music room. The idea of adding passive bass traps was complicated by using two REL subs in the same corners the traps needed to be in, and not knowing what room node frequencies to tame! I followed your room building series Paul, and witnessed your minimally effective helmholz bass management experiment. The built in DSPeaker screen and plug in microphone at the listening seat helped me identify the gross bass distortion introduced by room modes, then tamed them at the touch of a button on the remote. Filling in nulls is not practical or desired, according to the manufacturer's instructions (these can be minimised by careful speaker / listening seat positioning). I now have a system with bass response flat to below 20hz. To me it sounds very natural and the soundstage mimics a much larger space, with recordings in large halls. I can reverse the room correction in a split second if I want to revert to room mode boom or to experiment with new room treatments. The DSPeaker can be recalibrated in 10 minutes or so. I'd humbly recommend this to anyone who wants to take the room out of the (bass) listening experience. Nonetheless, thanks for your opinion . I enjoy your posts :-)
I also have a Antimode 2.0 and 8033S-II for my Harbeth P3ESR+Rel T5/i, I use them principally to tame the room modes and it work so well, I am deeply satisfy with the results and the simplicity. I have a tiny room, cannot change my sub and speakers placement, and personally don't like to hang things on the wall
Paul - thank you for covering this topic. If I understood you correctly, you dislike digital room correction due to its negative temporal effects, correct? Well, what if you could have your frequency response shaped to your chosen target curve (i.e. flat, tipped up below 100Hz etc.) while also correcting the phase/temporal aspects? Would that interest you? The answer lies in FIR (finite impulse response) correction filters that correct frequency and time domain. I use Audiolense software for the room measurement and FIR correction filter generation. Have you heard of this software tool or heard it or other FIR filters?
Electronic speaker has an advantage. It can be applied for different listening situations (you alone and Fritz playing Rchard, or you and your family watching the 1967 Reitherman-junglebook). And if you replace your modern plastic chairs with a set of fluffy fauteuils you can address this problem too. Expect no miracles. The interaction between boundaries and off axis performance can only be manipulated with different damping devices with extremely low WAF.
Thanks Paul, I always try to correct the room but with regular furnishings and furniture choices. Not perfect but a step forward. It’s a step too far to use physical audio treatments
not many peoples are lucky enough to have a relative large area playing HI Fi music especially living in Hong Kong like me , my room only 8.8 feet long from front wall to rear wall, 9 feet width, I dont know what acoustic product can fit in such small place
And in the end almost any of the dips caused by the room can not even be corrected via digital eq since they are caused by the standing waves in the room. When the measurement microphone is placed at the listening position, at that particular point there will be null points of some of the rooms standing waves. When the eq tries to straighten the dip at the particular frequency, the frequency will still be just as quiet as it was before since the listening position is at the null. And when moving out of the null point, the amplified frequency will destroy ones ears as the room correction program amplifies the frequency by multiple dbs. That's why I also think that the best ways to compensate the rooms effects on the sound are correct positioning within the room and using damping/ diffusion.
Thk you very much , to speak out against the digital correctors. Too much people dont get it that your surrounding sources like voices aso. sounds specific in your room too and therfore sets the pattern of reference. So digital corrected signals sound colored because everything else is not enhanced or diminished. A Stradivari and a Bösendorfer will sound as they are made , and also not deformed to meet your rooms peculiar acoustic shape.
I am the last person in the world to make negative comments and I honestly don't know why I am so passionate about this topic. But, firstly to the drawing board - Audiophiles are well researched why go to the trouble of making videos which is so fundamental in the advice it provides? How about some tips that are not commonly written or spoken about on the net...? And for the big one, I think you've lost a little and yes I repeat just little credibility after your mention of your dislike on DSP, your entitled to your opinion and yes it can sound different to you, plus I am not an expert but the difference is more than significant if done well, significantly more than significant, I mean significantly significant enough to know that its close to a magical experience. Also all the experts do agree that within a well treated room DSP does add the finishing touches to the tweaking of your HI FI or as an upgrade that plays a major role. Obviously each expert has there own way of expressing themselves and explaining the theorem but it is clear to me that every guru on a forums who have earned respect to the big guns of Audio, DSP impacts your sound system in a positive way at the very least. Disclaimer = My room is very well treated, DSP is the added bonus in the realm of things.
Room correction is the most beneficial upgrade a person can do apart from the speakers themselves. Amps, DAC's and Cables are not even in the same conversation. Room correction provides incredible changes when done right. And with systems like DIRAC, they will correct both the frequency and time domain. And you can use these tools to tune the sound more to your liking. The purist mentality of stubborn, rich, old audiophiles needs to go away. That is why so many $200K+ systems sound like crap at audio shows. Yes, room treatment is extremely important, but it can be much more expensive and there are still limitations. Both treatment and correction should be used together. You absolutely need correction when it comes to bass which is the #1 enemy to a room. At a minimum, everyone should correct their bass region as it will never be flat, unless you use 4-8 subs. Dips and peaks of 5-15dB are usually the norm and not the exception. And like Paul said, you should never boost nulls. If you have a large dip, do not try and boost it.
All equalisers except linear phase will introduce phase shifts when applied. A low shelf eq adjustment will make the equalized portion of the audio slightly out of phase with the rest of the audio. Problems get worse when you start notching specific frequencies out. Linear phase eq will introduce distortion via its delay compensation that tries to put everything back in phase. This may effect things like depth and width of the audio. Although a dynamic eq can be used for time based resonances which also causes phase issues. Most dynamic eq cannot be set to match time based resonances within a room.
Though I agree room treatment if possible, speaker placement and correct setup go a long way. Bass traps and broadband diffusion or absorption are cheap the a good quality eq. Eq should always be a last resort.
Also there's a natural eq for lowend and it's called speaker placement, specifically speaker boundary interference response SBIR. This will act as the best eq you can use and it's free.
Paul,
Having recently acquired a DSPeaker Dual-core 2.0 to experiment with active BASS room correction in my new music room. The idea of adding passive bass traps was complicated by using two REL subs in the same corners the traps needed to be in, and not knowing what room node frequencies to tame!
I followed your room building series Paul, and witnessed your minimally effective helmholz bass management experiment.
The built in DSPeaker screen and plug in microphone at the listening seat helped me identify the gross bass distortion introduced by room modes, then tamed them at the touch of a button on the remote. Filling in nulls is not practical or desired, according to the manufacturer's instructions (these can be minimised by careful speaker / listening seat positioning). I now have a system with bass response flat to below 20hz. To me it sounds very natural and the soundstage mimics a much larger space, with recordings in large halls.
I can reverse the room correction in a split second if I want to revert to room mode boom or to experiment with new room treatments. The DSPeaker can be recalibrated in 10 minutes or so.
I'd humbly recommend this to anyone who wants to take the room out of the (bass) listening experience.
Nonetheless, thanks for your opinion . I enjoy your posts :-)
I also have a Antimode 2.0 and 8033S-II for my Harbeth P3ESR+Rel T5/i, I use them principally to tame the room modes and it work so well, I am deeply satisfy with the results and the simplicity. I have a tiny room, cannot change my sub and speakers placement, and personally don't like to hang things on the wall
I am totally with you, correct the room and not the system, but then, I'm an old guy like you, I guess us old folks are destined to be purists.
Paul - thank you for covering this topic.
If I understood you correctly, you dislike digital room correction due to its negative temporal effects, correct?
Well, what if you could have your frequency response shaped to your chosen target curve (i.e. flat, tipped up below 100Hz etc.) while also correcting the phase/temporal aspects? Would that interest you? The answer lies in FIR (finite impulse response) correction filters that correct frequency and time domain. I use Audiolense software for the room measurement and FIR correction filter generation. Have you heard of this software tool or heard it or other FIR filters?
Electronic speaker has an advantage. It can be applied for different listening situations (you alone and Fritz playing Rchard, or you and your family watching the 1967 Reitherman-junglebook). And if you replace your modern plastic chairs with a set of fluffy fauteuils you can address this problem too. Expect no miracles. The interaction between boundaries and off axis performance can only be manipulated with different damping devices with extremely low WAF.
First line: speaker correction instead of "speaker"
Thanks Paul, I always try to correct the room but with regular furnishings and furniture choices. Not perfect but a step forward. It’s a step too far to use physical audio treatments
not many peoples are lucky enough to have a relative large area playing HI Fi music especially living in Hong Kong like me , my room only 8.8 feet long from front wall to rear wall, 9 feet width, I dont know what acoustic product can fit in such small place
Should speakers be toed in or toed out? Or does that matter at all?
I use both
@@PoshPaws2703 You know that's funny because I asked Paul that and he answered it somewhere I can't remember where but he said never toed out.
And in the end almost any of the dips caused by the room can not even be corrected via digital eq since they are caused by the standing waves in the room. When the measurement microphone is placed at the listening position, at that particular point there will be null points of some of the rooms standing waves. When the eq tries to straighten the dip at the particular frequency, the frequency will still be just as quiet as it was before since the listening position is at the null. And when moving out of the null point, the amplified frequency will destroy ones ears as the room correction program amplifies the frequency by multiple dbs. That's why I also think that the best ways to compensate the rooms effects on the sound are correct positioning within the room and using damping/ diffusion.
Paul ,I love your video's,...BUT, it is difficult to convince the better half about changing the room for the sake of better sound qualities LOL
Thk you very much , to speak out against the digital correctors. Too much people dont get it that your surrounding sources like voices aso. sounds specific in your room too and therfore sets the pattern of reference. So digital corrected signals sound colored because everything else is not enhanced or diminished. A Stradivari and a Bösendorfer will sound as they are made , and also not deformed to meet your rooms peculiar acoustic shape.
*CONGRATULATIONS FOR YOUR NEW IPHONE X ,SIR* 😀
I am the last person in the world to make negative comments and I honestly don't know why I am so passionate about this topic. But, firstly to the drawing board - Audiophiles are well researched why go to the trouble of making videos which is so fundamental in the advice it provides? How about some tips that are not commonly written or spoken about on the net...? And for the big one, I think you've lost a little and yes I repeat just little credibility after your mention of your dislike on DSP, your entitled to your opinion and yes it can sound different to you, plus I am not an expert but the difference is more than significant if done well, significantly more than significant, I mean significantly significant enough to know that its close to a magical experience. Also all the experts do agree that within a well treated room DSP does add the finishing touches to the tweaking of your HI FI or as an upgrade that plays a major role. Obviously each expert has there own way of expressing themselves and explaining the theorem but it is clear to me that every guru on a forums who have earned respect to the big guns of Audio, DSP impacts your sound system in a positive way at the very least. Disclaimer = My room is very well treated, DSP is the added bonus in the realm of things.