Yes, this is correct. As a North Carolinian, I still shoot like this, even with later firearms. It's just how most of us were taught to shoot, that is if we were taught by fathers and grandfathers. My old scoutmaster built flintlocks and was active with the Overmountain Men organization, he explained this as well. When some of my buddies joined up with the Army or Marine Corps back when we first went into Afghanistan and Iraq, they'd come home, holding their weapon facing forward with only the bottom third of the butt against their shoulder. I'd ask "Why are y'all shooting so funny". Some folks I knew who had not grown up as shooters, came out of the military trained to hold their AR platform weapons this way. We'd hand them a Mosin Nagant, M1A, or .30-06 bolt action, they would hold them the same way, pull the trigger, and walk away whining and grumbling about the recoil. Granted they'd only ever shot 5.56 out of an AR... But yes, this is how many of us still shoot.
I've had, and been interested in front stuffers since I was a kid but never knew this, thank you for showing something that's common to some, but not all. Very cool!
Thank you! I have a 45 with a crescent buttplate like this and I read they were shot off the arm, but mentioned nothing of the stance. This is gonna make it much easier to shoot, and shoot accurately!
Hi Bob! I had always wondered about that! Dad had a .32 Squirrel Rifle back in the day, with a deep crescent. When my brothers and I were kids, we would practice with it; and since our whole shoulder would fit into it, it was no bid deal. But as we got bigger... it got a little more painful to shoot. So... eventually, we all moved on to more "forgiving" buttplate shapes, since we never stumbled across this technique. I will be pleased to recover a fond memory of my youth... without the discomfort! Thanks!
Darn! Here I thought you were going to show us where the ramrod was on that black rifle. This video is good stuff. As someone who bought a southern rifle without knowing that beforehand, it did take a bit as a kid to learn!
Thank you Bob, I have a Kentucky rifle and it simply hurt too much to shoot. So glad I saw this video I will try this at my next visit to the range. I am going to buy a gel cover to help ease the pain. Thanks for sharing
For the first year and a half of my first traditional muzzle loader, I was cursing it, wondering who in the world would make a stock like this. Finally, someone filled me in but after a day at the range, I had two spots where I would be mildly bruised where the butt plate was stabbing into me.
I absolutely loved the video! This is great info, since I'm getting ready to buy my daughter new Natchez Poor Boy smoothbore made by Matt Advance(TVM). But this rises another question, how do you determine/measure for LOP? For a regular butt plate, her trigger pull is 13 1/4". Thoughts? PS, keep the great videos coming. Looking forward to the Bucks County coming back & your A.Martin gun videos.
Gene Slodysko That’s a very good question. It’s measured the same way, from the center of the BP so if you raise your finger towards the trigger and bring your elbow up while watching that crook where the butt goes you’ll notice it moves up and forward, even with your shoulder. The LOP should end up being the same as with a normal type butt.
I’ve been looking at picking up a smr, and this was something holding me back. I really appreciate this video explaining how to use them. Now to order that kibler kit! Many thanks!
Maybe I knew this and possibly forgot it? Maybe I didn’t. But how cool is it to just hear some straight up advice whether you need it or not. Love the channel! Keep them coming please. :)
Thanks for this and the other videos. Jack Garner of the old Dixie Gun Works made a Tennessee Mountain Rifle for me when He had Tennessee Valley Arms running. It is still the best flinter I have, after 4500 rounds still capable of under 3 inches offhand at 100 yards. If it ain't broke don't fix it.
@@BlackPowderTV You're quite Welcome. I learned the hard way after the military butt plate on my Sharps tried to reform my collar bone. Never been bruised worse in my life. But that was shooting a 540 gr bullet with 104 grain of 1.5fg OE. Now I know better Slide the butt out on the arm a bit, twist a little sideways and all is good. I'm just glad this technique is an acceptable practice.
never knew that, the deep crescents alreadys botherd me eve since i had a 1886 winchester with deep crescent in 45-70. But i couldnt imagine shooting a 45-70 off my bicep.
bavariasuhl That would be a bit tough. Southern guns were typically .45 and smaller in those days. You’d be surprised how easy it is on your body though. I like shooting that way.
@@wadepatton2433 but that .45-70 was loaded with a 405 and 500gr bullet, as opposed to a 125-130gr round ball lol. It's not fun, and that's one of the reasons why guns predominantly started having flatter buttplates once conical bullets became more common (1820's onward); well, and the fact that they're easier to fit to the stock. The amount of lead and powder being used was more akin to 1700's military muskets and big bore guns, rather than the "squirrel and southern deer-the-size-of-a-Labrador guns" in the 1700's
Nice AR. A bit of unsolicited advice if you don't mind, have the coupled reload on the left side of the rifle and higher up than the one in the weapon so when you change mags you can reach the bolt release and the empty magazine doesn't get in the way of the ejection port.
Thanks. I run it that way. The left mag is an 1.5” or so higher and I use an oversized bolt release and everything clears just fine. That’s my old Daniel Defense 3-gun rifle. Mag release and ejection port gate all clear fine with the empty to the right. 👍🏻
Just got a rossi 92 .44 mag (i know i know, but im poor😂) i was wondering why everyone was complaining about the recoil. Im a scrawny lil shit and beside the actual kick it didnt seem that bad to me. Turns out ive been shooting different than most people and didnt even know it was for a reason😂 im way up in Washington so i had no clue about the "southern shooting style", its just how i was taught to shoot. I felt more at home with the rossi and the crecent stock than my lil .22 winchester 150 that ive put thousands of rounds through. Great video, im really curious on trying to adjust my stance and hold to make it even more comfortable and stable 👍
You know another thought on that it lessens your target if someone shooting at you you know it's going to be in foot and a half wide across the shoulders you only look at maybe at a foot make sure Target smaller
Enjoyed the video and I agree with all you said. I have a couple of southern rifles (flintlocks) and completely love how they feel. Of course, mine are .40 caliber and only moderate recoil. Now..... I am considering getting a Winchester model 1886 which has the crescent buttstock as well. But... it shoots .45-70 ammo and it kicks like a mule. I am wondering if you, or any of the readers have experience shooting very heavy loads with a crescent stock seating it on the upper arm???
No, I haven’t had experience with any large bore crescents but I do know they were a thing in some places. As far as Southern crescents it seems they were all small bore as most large animals requiring larger bores were mostly gone from the South by the period. Thanks for the comment. I appreciate it.
Yes, I had heard the same thing about the larger game being gone and the smaller calibers began to rule. Thanks a lot for replying so quickly to my question. @@BlackPowderTV
I knew you were an AR guy somehow when watching your first video. Just a vibe I guess. Have me some too. OHIO rifles have a butt shaped similar to the Southern rifles. I was trying to tell someone the other night about this same subject and they thought I was pulling their leg. Thanks
Lol, I was a Grunt in the Corps. Combat Vet. It never goes away I guess. Gotta have my M4 with a Trijicon something or other on the rail. Wouldn't feel right without one next to my end table.... Thanks!
@@BlackPowderTV WOW ! Bob....... I must have gone astray I WAS 11B4P airborne infantry in Vietnam and all my rifles are front stuffers and lever action Henry"s. Reckon I need to shoot a back azimuth! That was real interesting, thanks.
What's the 4P? Airborne? 11 Bravo is infantry, I was an 0311, same thing, and an 0331 (M60 Machine Gunner) in the Corps. I used to shoot 3gun competitions as well so I have AR's, shotguns, and speed pistols, as well as a pre64 3030, a Model 3 Ruger 45-70 and a few other old guns....love em all..
I'm sorry Rich I was replying to John who replled on your comment here. I was an 0311/0331. He said he was 11b4p. I know 11 Bravo is infantry in the Army, but didn't know what 4p was. Parachutist/Airborne I'm thinking..
I thought maybe you didn't see John's post and was confused about me saying '4p' like it was an MOS. Dad was career 11b in the Army but I'm not fully up to speed on their designations. You too, thanks Brother.
It is a different way of shooting and not for everyone but next time you see one give it a shot. It’s a surprisingly good offhand way to mount the gun. Thanks for the comments today! I appreciate it brother!
That stance also allows you to shoot while hiding behind a tree with the LEAST amount of your body visible/exposed to enemy fire. Try it... only your dominant eye, 20% of your head, and the forearm holding the muzzle up are visible/vulnerable, as opposed to most of your head and at least a third of your torso when the gun is mounted on the shoulder while using a tree trunk for cover.
Kinda makes shooting off the bench a little difficult doesn’t?! I have an Ethan Allen replica made by Mowery Gun Works with this style butt plate and I was wondering if I was holding it correctly. It shoots great off-hand but is a bear on the bench, and now I know why. Thanks.
Never noticed it. I'm not familiar with southern guns but have made and shot plains type and ohio type rifles with deep crescent type butts. The things just seemed to naturally go in the right spot. I'd figure a fellow might turn his chair a little to the right or ride his seat a little sidesaddle and things ought to come out just about right.
Wow, who knew? Now the question is can I change 65 years of weapons handling? Thanks for that presentation, i used think that they really screwed up when designing the crescent butt shape.
Hey Kent, it’s pretty easy to shoot the crescents a bit a cross your body, and I find that I tend to shoot my others more across my body as well as the .36 Soddy southern gun is my primary plinker.
Southerners only retract their collapsible Flintlock stock just enough so that their nose can weld to the charging hand & their cheek can simultaneously weld to the stock when aiming with both eyes open 😏 not all the way out robbing them of the nose weld.
Some guys say not to take out the nipple in cleaning? I remove and clean my nipple, the inside threads, the lock, and barrel every time and they say I am wearing out my threads. What do you say?
I think if you’re careful and have the correct size nipple wrench you will be fine. Don’t over tighten or you can stress the threads. I don’t take mine out every time but I do take it off every second or third time. It depends on how well you can clean with it on. Some flash chambers are easier than others.
They were designed like this to reduce your body or target profile. You are less visible standing with your side facing forward than your chest forward. All depending on how big your gut is. Ha ha!!
Maybe I knew this and possibly forgot it? Maybe I didn’t. But how cool is it to just hear some straight up advice whether you need it or not. Love the channel! Keep them coming please. :)
Also used as a pitchfork in the off season.
Thanks guy, this answers a question I've had for awhile.
Thanks Winfield!
Yes, this is correct. As a North Carolinian, I still shoot like this, even with later firearms. It's just how most of us were taught to shoot, that is if we were taught by fathers and grandfathers. My old scoutmaster built flintlocks and was active with the Overmountain Men organization, he explained this as well. When some of my buddies joined up with the Army or Marine Corps back when we first went into Afghanistan and Iraq, they'd come home, holding their weapon facing forward with only the bottom third of the butt against their shoulder. I'd ask "Why are y'all shooting so funny". Some folks I knew who had not grown up as shooters, came out of the military trained to hold their AR platform weapons this way. We'd hand them a Mosin Nagant, M1A, or .30-06 bolt action, they would hold them the same way, pull the trigger, and walk away whining and grumbling about the recoil. Granted they'd only ever shot 5.56 out of an AR...
But yes, this is how many of us still shoot.
My goodness you just solved this issue I had for years. Thank you!
Didn't know that, excellent tutorial! Thanks for sharing.....
You’re welcome Mark! Thanks for watching!
this is an INCREDIBLE video! now my henry 45-70 hopefully wont bruise my chest anymore lol!
Thanks brother!! Glad you enjoyed it.
I've had, and been interested in front stuffers since I was a kid but never knew this, thank you for showing something that's common to some, but not all. Very cool!
👍🏻
Thank you! I have a 45 with a crescent buttplate like this and I read they were shot off the arm, but mentioned nothing of the stance. This is gonna make it much easier to shoot, and shoot accurately!
Glad to hear it! Let me know how it goes!
I always wondered why some shooters had their arm almost straight out from the shoulder. Now I know.
George Gooding Thats it. Thanks for the comment George!
Hi Bob! I had always wondered about that! Dad had a .32 Squirrel Rifle back in the day, with a deep crescent. When my brothers and I were kids, we would practice with it; and since our whole shoulder would fit into it, it was no bid deal. But as we got bigger... it got a little more painful to shoot. So... eventually, we all moved on to more "forgiving" buttplate shapes, since we never stumbled across this technique. I will be pleased to recover a fond memory of my youth... without the discomfort! Thanks!
Awesome! Thanks Martin!
Darn! Here I thought you were going to show us where the ramrod was on that black rifle. This video is good stuff. As someone who bought a southern rifle without knowing that beforehand, it did take a bit as a kid to learn!
Lol! Thanks!
Nice to see a demonstration of shooting a southern rifle. Thanks.
Kelvin Swanson You bet! Thanks for watching!
Learned something new
I love the crescent buttplates. When the rifle is built with cast off and toe out they are about the most comfortable rifle there is to shoot.
Bill Raby Bill. You nailed it. I love them.
I have one a .58 I bought last year now I know how to hold it properly!
ingl wud Awesome! Thanks for watching!
Thanks again Bob: Knowledge like this is assumed my many of us but not everyone was brought up on this style of butt plate. Good stuff!
Thanks! This was actually in response to an email question that I had and thought would make a good video.
Wow I'm not scared away from that style of flintlock now makes sense! Lol
Yep, that's been a useful video for more than a few fellers....
Amazing what knowledge is lost over time. I’m a history addict and gun collector and I had no clue.
that was very good info thanks.
Now that finally makes sense! Thanks!
I never ever thought about that. Good to know before I take the plunge. Thanks
You’re welcome Joe!
Thank you Bob, I have a Kentucky rifle and it simply hurt too much to shoot. So glad I saw this video I will try this at my next visit to the range. I am going to buy a gel cover to help ease the pain. Thanks for sharing
For the first year and a half of my first traditional muzzle loader, I was cursing it, wondering who in the world would make a stock like this. Finally, someone filled me in but after a day at the range, I had two spots where I would be mildly bruised where the butt plate was stabbing into me.
🤣 I hear ya. It’s happened to us all.
I absolutely loved the video! This is great info, since I'm getting ready to buy my daughter new Natchez Poor Boy smoothbore made by Matt Advance(TVM). But this rises another question, how do you determine/measure for LOP? For a regular butt plate, her trigger pull is 13 1/4". Thoughts? PS, keep the great videos coming. Looking forward to the Bucks County coming back & your A.Martin gun videos.
Gene Slodysko That’s a very good question. It’s measured the same way, from the center of the BP so if you raise your finger towards the trigger and bring your elbow up while watching that crook where the butt goes you’ll notice it moves up and forward, even with your shoulder. The LOP should end up being the same as with a normal type butt.
awesome video Bob
bavariasuhl Thanks! I appreciate it!
Excellent! Great vid. Thanks
You're welcome. Thanks brother!
I’ve been looking at picking up a smr, and this was something holding me back. I really appreciate this video explaining how to use them. Now to order that kibler kit! Many thanks!
I need me a boller hat like that. That's cool man
Thanks man! I love it!
That was a great lesson, thanks
Thanks MrD!
Maybe I knew this and possibly forgot it? Maybe I didn’t. But how cool is it to just hear some straight up advice whether you need it or not. Love the channel! Keep them coming please. :)
Great Explanation!
Thanks for this and the other videos. Jack Garner of the old Dixie Gun Works made a Tennessee Mountain Rifle for me when He had Tennessee Valley Arms running. It is still the best flinter I have, after 4500 rounds still capable of under 3 inches offhand at 100 yards. If it ain't broke don't fix it.
Bill, she sounds like a beaut and 3” groups at 100y is fine indeed.
Dangit now you've let the secret out. E'rry body going to want one!
Lol! I let the cat outta the bag.
Great tip thanks mate, top stuff mate
Thanks Dean! Much appreciated!
Very Interesting!
Thanks 👍
This also applies to military butts on Winchester 73's Sharps 1874's etc. and they are nearly impossible to shoot prone.
Yes it does! Thanks KC! Excellent point!
@@BlackPowderTV You're quite Welcome. I learned the hard way after the military butt plate on my Sharps tried to reform my collar bone. Never been bruised worse in my life. But that was shooting a 540 gr bullet with 104 grain of 1.5fg OE. Now I know better Slide the butt out on the arm a bit, twist a little sideways and all is good. I'm just glad this technique is an acceptable practice.
Really interesting. Thanks.
Very cool
Thank you
I didn't know that either...👍👍
Think i gave myself a cuncussion from how hard i just slapped my forhead
Underrated video. I have a Rossi r92 and nobody knows how to shoot it
Woah there… that first gun has NO WOOD on it!! Sacrilege!!
The rest of the video is solid gold for this BP hunter.
That’s for the information
👍 excellent, thank you!
Thank you for the great tip
never knew that, the deep crescents alreadys botherd me eve since i had a 1886 winchester with deep crescent in 45-70. But i couldnt imagine shooting a 45-70 off my bicep.
bavariasuhl That would be a bit tough. Southern guns were typically .45 and smaller in those days. You’d be surprised how easy it is on your body though. I like shooting that way.
45-70 stuffed with BP might be just fine-as that's how it started out.
@@wadepatton2433 but that .45-70 was loaded with a 405 and 500gr bullet, as opposed to a 125-130gr round ball lol. It's not fun, and that's one of the reasons why guns predominantly started having flatter buttplates once conical bullets became more common (1820's onward); well, and the fact that they're easier to fit to the stock. The amount of lead and powder being used was more akin to 1700's military muskets and big bore guns, rather than the "squirrel and southern deer-the-size-of-a-Labrador guns" in the 1700's
learn something new every day
Nice AR. A bit of unsolicited advice if you don't mind, have the coupled reload on the left side of the rifle and higher up than the one in the weapon so when you change mags you can reach the bolt release and the empty magazine doesn't get in the way of the ejection port.
Thanks. I run it that way. The left mag is an 1.5” or so higher and I use an oversized bolt release and everything clears just fine. That’s my old Daniel Defense 3-gun rifle. Mag release and ejection port gate all clear fine with the empty to the right. 👍🏻
Thanks for this info!!
Just got a rossi 92 .44 mag (i know i know, but im poor😂) i was wondering why everyone was complaining about the recoil. Im a scrawny lil shit and beside the actual kick it didnt seem that bad to me. Turns out ive been shooting different than most people and didnt even know it was for a reason😂 im way up in Washington so i had no clue about the "southern shooting style", its just how i was taught to shoot. I felt more at home with the rossi and the crecent stock than my lil .22 winchester 150 that ive put thousands of rounds through. Great video, im really curious on trying to adjust my stance and hold to make it even more comfortable and stable 👍
You know another thought on that it lessens your target if someone shooting at you you know it's going to be in foot and a half wide across the shoulders you only look at maybe at a foot make sure Target smaller
yes sir! Thanks!
Enjoyed the video and I agree with all you said. I have a couple of southern rifles (flintlocks) and completely love how they feel. Of course, mine are .40 caliber and only moderate recoil. Now..... I am considering getting a Winchester model 1886 which has the crescent buttstock as well. But... it shoots .45-70 ammo and it kicks like a mule. I am wondering if you, or any of the readers have experience shooting very heavy loads with a crescent stock seating it on the upper arm???
No, I haven’t had experience with any large bore crescents but I do know they were a thing in some places. As far as Southern crescents it seems they were all small bore as most large animals requiring larger bores were mostly gone from the South by the period. Thanks for the comment. I appreciate it.
Yes, I had heard the same thing about the larger game being gone and the smaller calibers began to rule. Thanks a lot for replying so quickly to my question. @@BlackPowderTV
I knew you were an AR guy somehow when watching your first video. Just a vibe I guess. Have me some too. OHIO rifles have a butt shaped similar to the Southern rifles. I was trying to tell someone the other night about this same subject and they thought I was pulling their leg. Thanks
Lol, I was a Grunt in the Corps. Combat Vet. It never goes away I guess.
Gotta have my M4 with a Trijicon something or other on the rail. Wouldn't feel right without one next to my end table.... Thanks!
@@BlackPowderTV WOW ! Bob....... I must have gone astray I WAS 11B4P airborne infantry in Vietnam and all my rifles are front stuffers and lever action Henry"s. Reckon I need to shoot a back azimuth!
That was real interesting, thanks.
What's the 4P? Airborne? 11 Bravo is infantry, I was an 0311, same thing, and an 0331 (M60 Machine Gunner) in the Corps.
I used to shoot 3gun competitions as well so I have AR's, shotguns, and speed pistols, as well as a pre64 3030, a Model 3 Ruger 45-70 and a few other old guns....love em all..
I'm sorry Rich I was replying to John who replled on your comment here. I was an 0311/0331. He said he was 11b4p. I know 11 Bravo is infantry in the Army, but didn't know what 4p was. Parachutist/Airborne I'm thinking..
I thought maybe you didn't see John's post and was confused about me saying '4p' like it was an MOS. Dad was career 11b in the Army but I'm not fully up to speed on their designations. You too, thanks Brother.
Thanks!! So as to not to have to change the butt position on my shoulder I will be ordering a fowler. 😉
It is a different way of shooting and not for everyone but next time you see one give it a shot. It’s a surprisingly good offhand way to mount the gun. Thanks for the comments today! I appreciate it brother!
Thank you!!
That stance also allows you to shoot while hiding behind a tree with the LEAST amount of your body visible/exposed to enemy fire. Try it... only your dominant eye, 20% of your head, and the forearm holding the muzzle up are visible/vulnerable, as opposed to most of your head and at least a third of your torso when the gun is mounted on the shoulder while using a tree trunk for cover.
Excellent point. Thanks!
I'm guessing that this is where the 'elbow out' form came from.
Nice ar build
Thanks. It’s a DDM4V11 Pro upper with an ultralight DD 5.56 barrel and a Spikes Tactical lower. Geissele trigger group.
Kinda makes shooting off the bench a little difficult doesn’t?! I have an Ethan Allen replica made by Mowery Gun Works with this style butt plate and I was wondering if I was holding it correctly. It shoots great off-hand but is a bear on the bench, and now I know why. Thanks.
Gregg Gibson It really does. Thanks for the comment. 👍🏻
Never noticed it. I'm not familiar with southern guns but have made and shot plains type and ohio type rifles with deep crescent type butts. The things just seemed to naturally go in the right spot. I'd figure a fellow might turn his chair a little to the right or ride his seat a little sidesaddle and things ought to come out just about right.
One day I'll get a Kibler and copy what you did. If not for you i wouldn't have the inline or flint lock.
Wow, who knew? Now the question is can I change 65 years of weapons handling? Thanks for that presentation, i used think that they really screwed up when designing the crescent butt shape.
Hey Kent, it’s pretty easy to shoot the crescents a bit a cross your body, and I find that I tend to shoot my others more across my body as well as the .36 Soddy southern gun is my primary plinker.
Southerners only retract their collapsible Flintlock stock just enough so that their nose can weld to the charging hand & their cheek can simultaneously weld to the stock when aiming with both eyes open 😏 not all the way out robbing them of the nose weld.
lol! I'll work on that...
Black Powder TV I’m just playing with you 😆 Jason from East Kentucky
That thing always poked my shoulders the first time i'm shooting it....
Now i know why
Some guys say not to take out the nipple in cleaning? I remove and clean my nipple, the inside threads, the lock, and barrel every time and they say I am wearing out my threads. What do you say?
I think if you’re careful and have the correct size nipple wrench you will be fine. Don’t over tighten or you can stress the threads. I don’t take mine out every time but I do take it off every second or third time. It depends on how well you can clean with it on. Some flash chambers are easier than others.
That's the same way I grew up shooting AKA 1894 Winchester rifle not carbine Crescent buttplate a whole lot more accurate shooting off hand
based on germanic style flintlock
I feel stupid
Thanks
🤣👍🏻
My dad always told me shoot off the ball and the deer will fall when we muzzleloader hunted.
My "Model 1816" & my "Model 1842" each have the most flat, non-conforming buttplate of any other gun I own or have shot...
They were designed like this to reduce your body or target profile. You are less visible standing with your side facing forward than your chest forward. All depending on how big your gut is. Ha ha!!
Finally someone explained how these damn things are supposed to be mounted. I literally couldn't get these things to fit and I'm not nearly 6'.
Maybe I knew this and possibly forgot it? Maybe I didn’t. But how cool is it to just hear some straight up advice whether you need it or not. Love the channel! Keep them coming please. :)
I need me a boller hat like that. That's cool man
Thanks brother!