Main issue for me: Spending more time rolling the maps than actually running them due to T17s having so many horribly designed mods. The mods should just be called "100% chance to remove your fun". T17s also make anything besides T17 useless in comparison. If i wanted to spend time in hideout i would just flip items.
Hey, I farmed about 500+ div in the form of a Mirror, Headhunter, Mageblood, and an Original Sin in the first-week farming mainly t17s. They are blatantly better than most t16 strats for divines per hour, and generally better at almost everything than t16s other than a few mechanics. My problem with them is that the game's scope has shrunk massively. Combined with the vertically scaling scarab changes the game is now 1 out of 5 t17 layouts and 1 mechanic with 5 scarabs dedicated to it; as opposed to before where you could choose any t16 and multiple different mechanics. If you want to make the most money in poe you will farm raw divs or scarabs, and you will do it in sanctum, or 1 of 5 maps. This is boring, and finding new methods to generate more scarabs is not as engaging as the large number of strategies we used to have access to. I think the ggg dev team needs to pick 1 of 2 directions for t17s 1. Make them unaffected by the atlas, the main purpose being the bosses and high difficulty. 2. Heavily nerf the loot modifiers and rework the Map boss fragment drops, centering the mechanic around being an extension of maps Right now they give both. This means that if you can beat the bosses and juice them like I can, you can make 30+ divines or more an hour farming nothing but scarabs, with no ability to lose money.
@@leifybear2286I would really love to know how to gain the knowledge to be bale to farm t17 that early , there is a guy on Xbox he is playing LS Slayer and he farm t17 week 1 and farm ubers at the same time with smae character and had a nimis for sale (Xbox community is only a few thousand players and it is extremely hard to 9btian gear that early) and I asked him about how but he never replied this specific question and his profile is always rpivate . And I dont know such player with same level of skill and knowledge with a public profile I just wanna know how ? I feel utter shit when I see Im stuck at guardians and I lack the knowledge to progress further with a higher speed , I can spend 10 hours a day or more on PoE but I lack knowledge and guidance . At least I'm happy now that huys like you exist that at least explain their routine .
Agreed 100% on this, "the game's scope has shrunk massively." That is the core issue with T17s. GGG spent years building out this beautifully diverse array of endgame content for people to enjoy and T17s make a huge chunk of it feel obsolete.
they said T17 are built this way, to NOT be able to self sustain. Which is good, I can sell my T17 and make a profit, or run them and make a profit, either way profit
I just ran a t17 for the first time, and the difference in drops between them and t16 is literally night and day. Makes the last 40 hours of farming t16s feel like a waste of time.
Some of the mod issues are that negative modifiers scale extra because of how they are programmed. Reduced defenses and reduced recovery rate being the main examples. I was pretty annoyed when last season I was running 8 mod T16s and I got a map with no mod that I "couldn't run" but that I couldn't survive at all, just to learn that the 60% or w/e reduced recovery rate went over 100% and therefor my build literally was unable to heal anymore without crafting a new healing flask. Those types of mechanics should be scaled inversely, so 60% reduced recovery rate is instead "40% recovery rate" and at 100% map effect it is then 40/2 or "20% recovery rate."
I'd consider map modifier effect an issue in T16s as well. They're pretty much optimal on most mapping strategies, removing actual choice on the atlas tree, while also turning a lot of mods into auto-bricks for many builds because they scale disproportionately with map modifier effect. I'm talking about mods such as 70% chance to avoid elemental ailments that turn from being a noticeable downside into an instant brick (for ignite builds in this case) when map modifier effect scales them to 100%.
I think the main issue here is being able to scale any mods from under 100% to over 100%, for a lot of mods even 99% isn't the worst thing in the world but 1% more and it's a full brick. Maybe map modifier effect has to go entirely though, it causes a lot of issues and you can't even visually see the effect on your maps before you run them unless you want to do the math which nobody wants to do.
Not just ignite builds, shock-based builds (I'm playing lightning conduit but there are other builds that get a lot of their damage from shock effect) also get bricked by that mod
or less life recovery :))) goes into 105% less life recovery, thank god it doesn't drain life away for going over 100 xD I still run them lol, wasting 3-4 portals xD
One mod I find super cringe which isnt even just a t17 mod is the less recovery mod. With increased effect it basically becomes worse than no regen. Cant leech cant regen cant even use life flask.
yeah i got to the point where i can comfortably do t17s and then quit for the league. i'm not going to keep farming t16s out of stubbornness when the same thing would be making me so much more money in t17s.
@@rpemulis but T16 are still profitable right? as long as its profitable and its fun, I would still run T16 because its fun, I don't feel fun running T17. If I don't have fun playing a video games, why would I play in the first place?
@hzt_rzkyi exactly. I don't enjoy t17s, but I love blasting t16s. Making a profit too and loving my time playing. Fun is good, wish more ppl would remember that
@@hzt_rzkyi i can't help it man, theres so much to do in ilfe, theres so many great videogames out there, that getting hit with that feeling of fomo makes me feel like i should just go do something else. its dumb, i know. but i think a lot of people are feeling the way i am about the endgame the last couple of leagues. even if tripolar is technically correct in his analysis of t17s.
"more punishing, less disabling" yes please!!! that's the part that's getting me down about t17s atm. blast through the map, then it feels like every boss just has a "you're now permanently slowed to a crawl and your .01 second blink takes 5 seconds hahaha I hit you now" - cool? just feels lame
@@fast1nakus any actual good build which is 400-500ms for bossrushing? Or jf you want to clear map probably something like infinite vaal lightning strike or high end bow build. Trickster is just dogshit, its zhp just like all hb builds, but cant do block setup like occultist because 0 dmg and cant do 400ms setup like pathfinder can because no flask effect and duration. And its also worse for sanctum because assasin exists lmao
Tier 17s are only one very, very small problem with the game. Too much content is gated behind getting tons and tons of currency. You need tens of divines to really tackle tier 17s confidently and 90% of the community will not see 10 div through the entire league. That means a HUGE part of the community gets frustrated, fed up, and quits until the next league. Those who achieve their 40/40 and quit are a very, very tiny slice of the overall game population. So small as to not really be a factor on looking at the steady (or steep) decline in player retention through the league - those who got frustrated at not being able to progress because they don't have currency (i.e. the stuff dropping on the ground universally sucks so they've got to trade in a game designed to be ANTI-trade). They need to adjust the game somehow so players who are not market masters can make currency for trading or give them decent drops so they don't need to spend 70% of their game time scanning the market.
Only thing I like about t17s is the effect it has on the market with keeping chaos orb to divine orb more in check. Pretty much dislike everything else and even before t17s I dislike increased effect being a thing on the tree and wish it was gone.
I was ok with t17 when ggg said they were aspirational content. But when they put them in they are mandatory because more loot, boss fragments. Making them mandatory to farm. Worst addition since archnemesis and they really want to die on that hill again.
My problem with powerful loot being gated behind ubers is that, when GGG introduced ubers, they said that it would be challenging content for the sake of challenge. Now it seems that ubers have become a benchmark for bossing.
To me it sounds a lot like the "increased effect" is a large part of why most of the mods become really really bad? Do you remember when their loot was NOT as good? People complained enough that they were forced to "buff" loot, and now people complain that they are TOO lucrative. Also, a LOT of these arguments can be applied to T16 maps as well! "These builds can't run T16 strats max juice , but we feel forced to run T16 with max juice to be competitive." I think the exact same issues would happen with most expensive scarabs even without T17 maps. As the most efficient strategies have always priced out most players. However I guess that sadly the "top hat" has become a expected always take, without considering the downsides of negative map mod scaling...
Big agree that the reason they fail as a bridge from regular to uber bosses, is because they are simultaneously the pinnacle of mapping. Boss rushing them is kind of a waste in this context. The knock-on effect of this is that now the top farming content in the game is a pool of 5 maps that aren't on the Atlas! What's the point of having favorite map slots, watchstones, scrying maps etc when the endgame is just buy and farm T17s? It'd be like if Sanctum or Delve were far and away the strongest farming content in the game.
While i agree on the most points what really kills t17 for me is that they feels empty(?), they big and profitable and have a lot of stuff, but you never really get the feeling of blasting juiced map. Like when you do on any regular farm maps, when i blast dunes, junglle or whatever farming map you prefer the only downtime is when i loot, other than that you just GO, and that's the kind of bliss i really love in poe endgame, and t17 just dont provide, juiced or not
The gold is a major issue that sucks for people who play significantly less then some nolifers. GGG really really dropped the ball on it. Also most of the community abhors trading in any form, so any farm in their eyes would need to be raw drops.
My hot take: T17s should not be farmable. The Atlas should not apply to them. They should have NO MAP MODS whatsoever, no currency interaction, they should be like keys. The flipside? Make them super hard in some other way, like only have a single portal and that's it, that's the challenge, no mods. Make it so that if you die in one, it's crushing. Make them even rarer as well, so that while you only need maybe 1 of each for progression, they are expensive. They should be a gate to uber content, something normal players only feel like they have to do once, they should not be a constant farming goal beyond putting some insane uniques on the bosses maybe to make them like ubers where you can farm them if you want those specific drops, but you don't have to.
The only issue I have with drowning orbs is them sitting on your portal when you die. I've been doing t17s with a flicker strike build and I can't tell you how many times a drowning orb has killed me because I flicker striked into it and that's okay, but when I die I used to have cast on death portal and the orb would be there when I came back and insta die
There was a time when you could donsome pretty good damn builds for cheap back in the day. Over the years ggg has nerfed the hell out of certain jobs and skills. Inmean i have made over 500 divines and have a mageblood and headhunters belt. My Ls warden cannot do t17 effectively even with the tons of defensive layers with a savalin shield, 89% to dodge, 90% block chance, 98 spell supression, 71%physical damage reduction, and yet i keep dying in juiced and t17 maps.
When you farm these maps, do you skip the boss? Because the map itself is never an issue for me. But maybe it's a skill issue, but I can't ever seem to get through a boss without using every portal.
Regarding unlocking the 6th Slot, using the Scarab of Bisection is a godsent by GGG to cut either prefixes or suffixes from the map. I completed Citadel for the first time, including the boss, thanks to skipping like 100% life as ES, 40% inc. monster damage and a LOT% attack cast movespeed ;) left me with only Enfeeble, Endurance Charges for Monsters and Faster Buffs gone (which btw, does NOT affect Charge Duration). I did have to change my Ascendancy Nodes, realizin' that Trickster's "One Step Ahead" to become Action Speed Immune was also insanely valuabe specifically for that boss, because... well... the arena beams slow you down, the ground effects as well... they became trivial for the most part after speccing this.
I dont get what everyone is crying about, I've made about 95 div so far this league and I havent touched a T17, and I sell most of my scarabs. I also don't invest in increased map mod effect.
Is the fact that T17's are larger, and thereby have more monsters, part of why they feel more mandatory for high price scarabs? If they were to cut down the size of each T17 map, (thereby reducing amount of monsters, but not density), would that perhaps help?
Here is my 2 point plan to fix the t17 issue: 1.Nerf T17 bosses map it about the mapping experince since it is a map 2. Add uber fragments to their baseline versions droppool this would give us to way to farm uber fragments one being focused on mapping one on bossing it would also do something about feeling of normal bosses not having enough value But maybe im just cooked
In regards to unrunnable mods it would have been nice of you to highlight mods that brick other very popular things such as suppression etc. You are a guidemaker so hopefully that would be within your capabilities. Would make a much better point from that
I'm so happy being ignorant of all these t17 is too powerful to ignore type of problem. Im having a blast pieceing my RF little by little in t16 using expedition and harvest. Maybe people speed things up too much and lose value of things too fast as a result. I generally keep it slow this league and am glad there's maasive market of t17 buyers since i can get reliable amount of currency by selling them. Again, not the most div per hour but who cares anyway. I'm progreasing and its all that matters.
My problem is t17s, the scarabs situation, and the loot changes just make the end game no fun anymore. I feel like fun in general is being completely overlooked by GGG right now in general. Its lost on them right now that this is a game it is supposed to be fun. Right now it really feels like work to play this game until u get headhunter or Mageblood and currency stops mattering so much.
I'm talking about this in a video tomorrow, but the sentiment that T16 + scarabs makes no currency couldn't be farther from the truth. Check out some currency farming videos and the google sheet from Milky and you can see many strats that make plenty of divines without ever having to farm T17.
@@TripolarBear oh I make plenty of currency that’s not really the problem. Again, the problem for me it’s just not fun. I started Archmage ball lightning made a couple hundred divines rolled it into Bow Spark. Making currency isn’t the issue. When making currency feels like work instead of playing the game. I know everyone doesn’t feel this way it’s just my opinion.
Am I crazy or would preventing the atlas passive tree from applying to T17's fix a lot of the FOMO issues? They would still be valuable and have the fragments as a reason to target farm them. Just feels like they would perform better as a unique content that you opt into rather than forcing everyone to chase it as the new ceiling. Like how blighted maps/sanctum/delve aren't affected by the tree, but are still worth farming if you want to engage with that content. idk
i just simply wont interact with t17s. if it doesnt get fixed in poe1 ill simply stop playing when poe2 comes out. if poe2 has the same stupid easily stopable problems then i simply wont play poe.
As a ps5 player. I will drop out next league and wait for poe2 if the consoles don't get some love. They broke the game so hard that we have less player since the game released on console because most people can't play the game.
PoE: a game with infinite possibilities, hundreds of skills, thousands of combinations and builds possible Also PoE: only 3 builds can do all content, and you need 2 other characters to farm for hours for items that those build requires if you’re playing ssf
And you can always take the less monster damage notable on the tree. That's what I'm doing. Easy tree, easy mods no juicing. At least to get your 6th map device slot.
"Tryhard casual" here. T17s suck and are absolutely a problem, but listening to you speak, you're too close to the issue. You are a leading content creator. You have probably forgotten more about the game than most players know. I agree with some of your points, but others are done from the perspective of someone grinding this game like it's a full time job. You need to consider that for the most part, eliminating scarabs from applying to T17s solves the economy problems for most normal humans.
Cmon man don't pretend like im on some high horse looking down at the plebs. My first farm this league was yellow map essence (something you can still do for many div per hour) because I was too weak to do them in reds. The problem isn't scarabs priced for T17, the problem is people thinking ALL scarabs are. Check out the video later today, but it's a much smaller problem then reddit tells you it is, and I recommend you try a few strats and actually buy a few scarabs and see for your self instead of FEELing they're too expensive. Essence, Expedition, Harvest, Breach, Stacked Deck farming, Ritual, Harbinger, Beast, Blight, Destructive play, these are just a few farms in T16 or lower you can do, not even counting all the stuff you can do outside of maps
@@TripolarBear I did not mean to imply you're on a high horse - I just feel that listening to the currency generation you were talking about vs the issues of T17s, I think that perhaps you think a lot more people are generating way more currency than is happening for average players, which make up a majority of the player base. I could certainly be wrong. I actually have had no problem with the prices of most scarabs, and I only get to play a few hours every other day or so due to work/life/etc. Anyways, don't take my previous post as bashing you. That was not my intent at all; I was just sharing my thoughts on "creator level" currency generation vs likely average joe. I'm a fan all you do for the game - in fact, when I had no idea how to construct my own builds yet and purely followed guides, your Boneshatter Jug on maxroll was the first guide that taught me a TON about key game mechanics and allowed me kill all of the bosses in the game. Keep up the good work. It's appreciated.
Never tried a T17. Every time I make it through the atlas I've already done 20+ challenges and feel burned out on the league. I love PoE but 2 weeks is about as much as I can stomach each league
I like t17s as a chellange and as some aspiration. There is so much content in the game and you can do whatever you like. Just play the game and enjoy what ypu like
problem with GGG is they keep tying loot to content witch is meant to be a skill flex ubers should not have better drop pools than normals and t17 shouldn't be affected by scarabs or the tree buff both back up to make them hard as nails and leave them only as something people test their builds against
Yes, the loot is not as ridiculous as the last two leagues which were 2 absolutely absurd loot fountain leagues, but if you're not able to make good currency outside of T17, you're just bad at the game. It's just the truth.
Only time ive died to drowning orbs was when I was trying to pick up loot and thinking I had enough time to grab the last couple of things so my fault.
I don't go through reddit, I wasn't even aware of the community's opinion on T17s, and yet, between how bad every non-t17 farm this league has fealt to me and how insane it seems like I can't run t17 on a character that can otherwise ignore every single t16 mod, I can't help but feel like the world revolves around having to play those mapss. T17s were meant to be a stepping stone content between pinnacle bosses and uber pinnacle bosses. In this regard they are an ABSOLUTE failure. Not only are they harder than uber pinnacle bosses (at least for me) but more often than not they end up just being a stronger version of t16 that has nothing to do with boss killing, AND they feel like a build tax, a "you gotta be this tall to participate in the economy" situation. I'm off to SSF, where I can pretend t17 don't exists. Peace.
For people struggling with completion; just buy the scarab of stability (50% chance not to use a portal). With 9 portals you will be able to achieve completion with any reasonable dps/mod combo.
It's just a matter of figuring out what to do. Not all builds can do ubers, so why should majority of builds do T17 efficiently? Didn't they make them as a stepping stone to ubers? To be fair, most of the community is absolutely clueless about the game. They just follow builds with no idea how they really work and personally I barely scratched the surface after a thousand hours. Then they reach T17 and they cannot understand what's wrong in the build, what they should prioritise and they don't have access to yet. The problem is still the same as it has always been, you need good DPS and good defense. No way around it. And I'm saying that while getting trounced in T17 at this time.
Doing in it Kingsmarch would be great. Supply gold and chaos orbs (so you can set the max the npc uses) and it has a timer. Since everyone has to sleep sometime it would be fine to do it overnight.
I genuinely cant run my go to fun t16 map and scarabs. I didnt get a drop for a while and cant sustain it anymore. Im now running some scuffed beyond shrines and extra rares with 8mod t16s. Its fun, but not harbinger or strongboxes type of fun. I hate having chosen an off meta clearspeed build instead of a metacuck build to run t17s with. I fucking hate it and might reroll ssf.
Interesting perspective. Last league I didnt think much of T17s. I didnt like the layouts and didnt find them very rewarding. Makign currency isnt rewarding for me. I am happy collecting enough currency to do what I want. My prime motivator is to have fun whilst playing.
A lot of people have these self fulfilling prophecy type issues, i see lots of comments that are very similar on youtube, too. Most peoples problems are just self created
Unfortunatly GGG just nerf t17 wo any balance changes t16. And with one again shadow nerf expedition we will all run sanctums for profits until eventually GGG nerf sanctum...
My issue is that I want to keep my town running but the balance with the cost on it. 12k per hour and that is not with mappers. Like that adds up quickly, and I am rushing maps when I like to do ritual and other slower content. So I'm really annoyed.
Looking at the implementation of T17s really shows the glaring difference between Chris and Mark. I cant imagine Chris saying T17s are a stepping stone to ubers. Worst content in the game
ok this is getting really annoying, ppl are bitching for no reason now, like T17 are at a pretty good spot, I run T17 + deli orb + beyond with a bow build with almost no defences, I die often, but thats the top tier mapping experience, ppl think they want everything to be easy but then they will get bored instantly, T17s are fine now.
There's a thing with the gold drop... the mapping bots we're kinda pitched as something that would bring a little of passive income to more casual players but with tier 17 being the best strategy to make gold and the gold drop seemingly balanced with that in mind, the map runners ended being just another plaything for the 1%. I know that's how the real world works but this is a video game we're talking about. They really need to remove gold from t17 they are already rewarding enough.
i'm not sure about the gold profit of t17s. i ran them but the time i invest in rolling and goin through the map,,,ofc if i had mageblood etc, thatd be a nobrainer. but for now, 15k on avg in t16s for 2min runs is good enough for me without having to think too much. could easily go to 20k if i was to add ritual. thats just my experience tho.
i only did a t17 for map completion, rolling them for a farm is too annoying even though i should do a t17 version of my normal farms of everything except shit like essence. Makes me feel stupid for not doing it but i'm not willing to deal with the hassle so i'll just sit in t16s making half of what i could. scarabs on t16 is 100% still profitable though, people are full of shit.
So my feedback is that mapping which already been best way of currency farming in the game, got uber version of it, making it extremely beyond everything we have in the game and only complain from people is that... it's too hard... It's brick.. it's not doable by everyone... But when people make 80div/h with t17s its just fine, cuz fuck whatever else. T17 are mistake, because it caters towards 1% of 1% of players who gonna do it and gonna deal with anything devs can come up with with their 3 mirror worth builds while they make everyone else feeling FOMO of not being able to have fun with it and common market for those punishes weaker players with higher cost of their profit strategies. So yes, T17 are a design flaw, they shouldn't be meant to be for everyone, they should be somewhat uber maps that require very specific and expensive character and there shouldn't be compromises. Fixing it to make it less painful is same effect as buffing t16s... Doesn't solve anything and creates way more problems like requirement to buff heist, blighted maps, simulacrum and bossing... Do that and you'll have to implement t18s, what's the ultimate problem to be solved with those!? I don't understand why mappers actually needed anything beyond t16's in poe1. It all could have been achieved with some atlas modifications on t16s and making t17's for everyone is just replacing this system over t16s cuz nobody gonna play that if they can get more.... Really dumb design and i'd rather have it scrapped than wasting GGG's time to fix something that has no strong fundamental design concept.
Imo map mods that pretty much prevent builds just shouldn't exist, at least not in their current version. I think negative mods do have a place, to make the content more challenging, but there's a huge difference between something being more challenging and something being impossible to do. And although you can build around some of the mods, doing something like reducing reflect damage taken in order to be able to run a higher % of your rolled maps isn't something I find interesting. It's not gameplay you can feel, it just allows you to play the game.
If the idea of "fun" is doing 1 thing over and over for currency, I dont feel bad for you. All these issues people complain about I share 0 of the feelings in ssf.
I agree with the whole rolling the map part. But regarding the feeling forced to run the map i think people need to stop complaining like some ho's. I have run 2 T17's this league. One for my 6th slot, and one to test the power of my build, nothing else. This is the league wher i've earned the most, and it's all been from running breach and deli. Making consistent currency over time with a cheap and easy strat, beats sweating in t17s and spending 5 minutes rolling every map any day
Here's an idea : how about T17 at the start being basically the same as T16s, but each time you complete a certain number of them, you get to add (or upgrade!) a juicy T17 mod to the pool of your next runs. May be you get to choose between 3 random ones and a skip. With each level of... what should we call it... hmm, corruption :D, you choose to add, you get more juice, with may be some breakpoints (for uniques to drop or whatever). This way the endgame takes longer to "finish", and for us plebs who can't or don't want to run fully formed T17 abomination, we can find a middle ground.
So there is good feedback, we just gotta ignore the bad ones.. i swear every league that has problems is like this in poe. Why i distance myself cause its just tiring.
Yeah gotta disagree with you on this one, the reason there are hundreds of upvotes is because there are a lot of people who feel the same. Remember that this is a game, and for most people its not their career and so very often are not running super min maxed optimised shit and so for most people things like scarabs are quite literally too expensive. The idea the T17's are not warping Scarab prices is just not true
I severely dislike t17s as they are now. PoE builds to me always seem to be good map clearers or good boss dps with a very few builds being good at both. My current build LS Deadeye doesn't have the best single target, but can AoE clear maps very well. I clear t16s with ease and clear the mobs on t17s with ease, but then the boss is just a nightmare. I don't want to be forced to make a build good enough to kill the t17 map bosses because the entire economy inflates itself to the value that t17 pumpers are accumulating. It just doesn't feel right.
i suspect GGG expects it to be treated as tradeoff, e.g. don't use modifier effect and then you don't need to lose 30-50c rolling. but that's obviously not how playerbase perceives it... in all likelyhood they go like "we heard you, modifier effect is removed from the atlas"
frankly, by it's verry nature, map effect should not have been a thing at all from the beginning, just by how binary and non-choice it is. top hat was already pushing it, but with all the extra wheels, not taking the effect, makes any non-loot tile a dead strategy from the get go, and it just creates multiplier problems overall, as without any map effect, quant is so low, that nothing ever drops in comparison to with map effect. Maps just don drop loot any more, other than the extreme top case due to how ggg have been retooling loot, to only be in loot tiles, and trying their hardest to remove any and all ground loot. All this has been a problem since kalandra, but it was masked by MASSIVE league specific multipliers and stacking of things to even get ok loot, but in that scenario, when you stack them correctly, then we have necropolis extremes again. And this league, after ggg both nerfed loot again, AND there is no massive multiplier from the leage mechanic, and we'r back to poverty leage, where it's t17 or bust for ground loot. Or you run loot tiles, but other than essence t6. You still need to run t17, since the economy is balanced around the top end use case for the scarabs. The same as how all currency is balanced around top end crafting
@@Wrongusername2 half true half false. all scarabs have resell value to the vendor in the 3 to 1 for a random scarab, which is then in equilibrium of the meta, which is driven majorly by the top end
Personally I don't like it at all. If it is a "bridge to ubers" just be bosses. If it is "uber mappng" don't have bosses which are a bit nope for most builds. Also fighting against map mods instead of mobs isn't great design. Just chaos spam until your build can run them. This on top all floor drops moved to T17 just feels off. I'd say: 1. move Uber Boss keys to their NON UBER variants 2. Bring down loot a lot or nerf it in some way like "your atlas tree does not work here" 3: Do away with brick mods. They are not entertaining or funny. And spamming chaos is not engaging gameplay. Find a better Chaos sink if you want one!
I think the acquisition for t17s should not be from ONLY map drops i think base bosses like regular exarch and stuff should have a chance to drop 1 to 3 t17s to give incentive to grind old bosses again. and ubers should guarantee drop 3 with a chance of dropping up to 5 so more maps are in the economy from not just map drop spam. I also think side content like Jun alva beast should have ways of getting t17s as well like the alva map room tier 3 should have a bench to convert 1 t16 to a t17 and so on so then people would stop complaining about mods since they can just get a surplus to roll and stuff or buy the easy ones off the market and such mix up the farms ya know.
Wait, what does the increased effect of "Deal no damage for 4 seconds every 10 seconds" look like? Do you have your damage shut off for 3/4 of the time you're in there?
In my opinion T17s make even bigger gap between casual and hardcore players than ever before. People run these maps day2-3 while some people will never even be able to run them properly. When I started clearing them and saw the loot I've got I was shocked. T16 maps now feel like a waste of time and yet some people might never be able to run T17. Where is the loot in t16? I've dropped 2 divines in these 2 weeks, I've never seen such bad loot yet. Investing in to t16 feels waste of time. Dunno the progression just feels off now. Changes to uber boss invitations are as horrible, before we used to be able to sell eater and exarch invitations at least if we are not lucky with drops or still too weak to juice. Everything feels now taken out and put further away so that more casual players couldn't even progress.
maybe you are a bit too dumb to understand the problems but you could be making at least 3x more currency if you had ran t17 instead of doing other things.
The whole problem with t17s is the 3rd part you list. and the solution is to make them not t17s that are tiered in mapping beyond t16s. Do something unique to bridge between the unique lower bossing content and the unique higher content. Throwing in this whole new system of endgame mapping is just completely stupid, every single problem in t17s is forced because they tried to forced that "3rd thing added" (aka the entire part of them being mapping content). The rest of your thoughts are all saying this, but you (and most CCs I have watched) tip-toe around this point instead of just clearly stating that fact and clearly stating the obvious. They are bad as mapping content, in basically every way. They much more fit the theme of unique maps, and should have been unique maps, and NONE of these problems would have to exist. It's literally that simple, delete them and make some unique bossing maps to fit inbetween the other unique bossing content just like they said they wanted. I won't go on but even if other t16 things are worthwhile, they are always going to be expressive to everything t16 which is everything mapping we have built up over a decade now. It makes no sense. For me, it's even worse, because I like most out of map content gaming. Logbooks, Tomes, Blueprints, Synth map farming...all this kind of stuf has already been left to rot/nerf via "reworks" in the past couple years. They add t16s and all of that stuff just feels even more despair to engage with. It sucks. I don't get why it was needed at all. None of that side content was top tier for a while now anyway, and now it's all just flat out worse. Why?
![[No Bait] Currency Strats for the Poor Exile](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/I_LF9-43Ve8/mqdefault.jpg)
![[No Bait] Currency Strats for the Poor Exile](/img/tr.png)
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T17's are an obvious problem, but we need to have constructive and accurate feedback or GGG will take (reddits) advice with many more grains of salt.
weak ass pinned comment
OK, ill be sure to keep an eye out for tomorrows video
Unless developers are completely crazy, they avoid Reddit completely. There is rarely anything constructive there.
Main issue for me: Spending more time rolling the maps than actually running them due to T17s having so many horribly designed mods. The mods should just be called "100% chance to remove your fun". T17s also make anything besides T17 useless in comparison. If i wanted to spend time in hideout i would just flip items.
The problem is not T17's being too powerful,. but the fact that T16's are not rewarding outside of tile strategies.
POE 3.26: We've heard your feedback and have increased the regex size to 100 characters.
omg please no
This is probably what is most likely to happen though, would definitely at least help out a little bit
Hey, I farmed about 500+ div in the form of a Mirror, Headhunter, Mageblood, and an Original Sin in the first-week farming mainly t17s. They are blatantly better than most t16 strats for divines per hour, and generally better at almost everything than t16s other than a few mechanics. My problem with them is that the game's scope has shrunk massively. Combined with the vertically scaling scarab changes the game is now 1 out of 5 t17 layouts and 1 mechanic with 5 scarabs dedicated to it; as opposed to before where you could choose any t16 and multiple different mechanics.
If you want to make the most money in poe you will farm raw divs or scarabs, and you will do it in sanctum, or 1 of 5 maps. This is boring, and finding new methods to generate more scarabs is not as engaging as the large number of strategies we used to have access to.
I think the ggg dev team needs to pick 1 of 2 directions for t17s
1. Make them unaffected by the atlas, the main purpose being the bosses and high difficulty.
2. Heavily nerf the loot modifiers and rework the Map boss fragment drops, centering the mechanic around being an extension of maps
Right now they give both. This means that if you can beat the bosses and juice them like I can, you can make 30+ divines or more an hour farming nothing but scarabs, with no ability to lose money.
I completely agree, make them unique and unaffected by the atlas. And you can make them as complex as you want.
how did you farm an og sin in t17
@@choiboi23 it's a trade league, i bought it with money farmed in t17s
@@leifybear2286I would really love to know how to gain the knowledge to be bale to farm t17 that early , there is a guy on Xbox he is playing LS Slayer and he farm t17 week 1 and farm ubers at the same time with smae character and had a nimis for sale (Xbox community is only a few thousand players and it is extremely hard to 9btian gear that early) and I asked him about how but he never replied this specific question and his profile is always rpivate . And I dont know such player with same level of skill and knowledge with a public profile I just wanna know how ? I feel utter shit when I see Im stuck at guardians and I lack the knowledge to progress further with a higher speed , I can spend 10 hours a day or more on PoE but I lack knowledge and guidance . At least I'm happy now that huys like you exist that at least explain their routine .
Agreed 100% on this, "the game's scope has shrunk massively." That is the core issue with T17s.
GGG spent years building out this beautifully diverse array of endgame content for people to enjoy and T17s make a huge chunk of it feel obsolete.
I don't like t17. I want to juice maps I want to play and have loot drop for me. I want to sustain my mapping.
t17 are awesome this league. So easy to run even on budget, great for gold farming.
Agreed. T17 are the worst
Havent done a single t17 and build is still 100d+ easily
@@Epindary im on a 10 div frostbolts build with autocast helmet and its easy sailing :D
they said T17 are built this way, to NOT be able to self sustain. Which is good, I can sell my T17 and make a profit, or run them and make a profit, either way profit
Good takes and video. unfortunately as a degenerate my willy is wrapped in foil and in the socket. GGG save me pls.
Loooooooool
Spicy
baseg
Begone demon-child
I just ran a t17 for the first time, and the difference in drops between them and t16 is literally night and day. Makes the last 40 hours of farming t16s feel like a waste of time.
Some of the mod issues are that negative modifiers scale extra because of how they are programmed. Reduced defenses and reduced recovery rate being the main examples. I was pretty annoyed when last season I was running 8 mod T16s and I got a map with no mod that I "couldn't run" but that I couldn't survive at all, just to learn that the 60% or w/e reduced recovery rate went over 100% and therefor my build literally was unable to heal anymore without crafting a new healing flask.
Those types of mechanics should be scaled inversely, so 60% reduced recovery rate is instead "40% recovery rate" and at 100% map effect it is then 40/2 or "20% recovery rate."
Wait isn’t the answer to remove the top hat passives?
I'd consider map modifier effect an issue in T16s as well. They're pretty much optimal on most mapping strategies, removing actual choice on the atlas tree, while also turning a lot of mods into auto-bricks for many builds because they scale disproportionately with map modifier effect.
I'm talking about mods such as 70% chance to avoid elemental ailments that turn from being a noticeable downside into an instant brick (for ignite builds in this case) when map modifier effect scales them to 100%.
I think the main issue here is being able to scale any mods from under 100% to over 100%, for a lot of mods even 99% isn't the worst thing in the world but 1% more and it's a full brick. Maybe map modifier effect has to go entirely though, it causes a lot of issues and you can't even visually see the effect on your maps before you run them unless you want to do the math which nobody wants to do.
Not just ignite builds, shock-based builds (I'm playing lightning conduit but there are other builds that get a lot of their damage from shock effect) also get bricked by that mod
or less life recovery :))) goes into 105% less life recovery, thank god it doesn't drain life away for going over 100 xD I still run them lol, wasting 3-4 portals xD
Removing the ability to use scarabs with them would get rid of most of the complaints. Increase the # of uber fragments by 1 or 2 to compensate
One mod I find super cringe which isnt even just a t17 mod is the less recovery mod. With increased effect it basically becomes worse than no regen. Cant leech cant regen cant even use life flask.
ggg: "We've heard your feedback so we're nerfing hexblast."
I usually dont agree with you on much but you hit the nail on the head with "it should feel difficult, not disabling"
I refuse to do t17, just thinking in the reroll is just the most annoying thing ever.
yeah i got to the point where i can comfortably do t17s and then quit for the league. i'm not going to keep farming t16s out of stubbornness when the same thing would be making me so much more money in t17s.
thats fine.. u can just farm in t16s or lower then
@@rpemulis but T16 are still profitable right?
as long as its profitable and its fun, I would still run T16 because its fun, I don't feel fun running T17. If I don't have fun playing a video games, why would I play in the first place?
@hzt_rzkyi exactly. I don't enjoy t17s, but I love blasting t16s. Making a profit too and loving my time playing. Fun is good, wish more ppl would remember that
@@hzt_rzkyi i can't help it man, theres so much to do in ilfe, theres so many great videogames out there, that getting hit with that feeling of fomo makes me feel like i should just go do something else.
its dumb, i know. but i think a lot of people are feeling the way i am about the endgame the last couple of leagues. even if tripolar is technically correct in his analysis of t17s.
I like men
Same
same
Penguins?
"more punishing, less disabling" yes please!!! that's the part that's getting me down about t17s atm. blast through the map, then it feels like every boss just has a "you're now permanently slowed to a crawl and your .01 second blink takes 5 seconds hahaha I hit you now" - cool? just feels lame
My main currency maker is selling t17.
Running them, even on my hexblast trickster, is too annoying.
Hb trickster is dogshit for t17
@@kooshappreciator4773 hwhat isnt dogshit in t17
@@fast1nakus any actual good build which is 400-500ms for bossrushing? Or jf you want to clear map probably something like infinite vaal lightning strike or high end bow build. Trickster is just dogshit, its zhp just like all hb builds, but cant do block setup like occultist because 0 dmg and cant do 400ms setup like pathfinder can because no flask effect and duration. And its also worse for sanctum because assasin exists lmao
Pretty rough on newer players. Amps up prices for scarabs for farming lower tiers, and Ive dropped one tier 17 map in like 12 hours of farming stuff.
Remember when GGG said T17s were supposed to be a stepping stone to uber bosses 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Tier 17s are only one very, very small problem with the game.
Too much content is gated behind getting tons and tons of currency. You need tens of divines to really tackle tier 17s confidently and 90% of the community will not see 10 div through the entire league. That means a HUGE part of the community gets frustrated, fed up, and quits until the next league. Those who achieve their 40/40 and quit are a very, very tiny slice of the overall game population. So small as to not really be a factor on looking at the steady (or steep) decline in player retention through the league - those who got frustrated at not being able to progress because they don't have currency (i.e. the stuff dropping on the ground universally sucks so they've got to trade in a game designed to be ANTI-trade).
They need to adjust the game somehow so players who are not market masters can make currency for trading or give them decent drops so they don't need to spend 70% of their game time scanning the market.
Minor correction: Hexblast miners can run Hexproof maps with no issue as the enemies are still considered cursed, albeit unaffected by the curse.
Only thing I like about t17s is the effect it has on the market with keeping chaos orb to divine orb more in check. Pretty much dislike everything else and even before t17s I dislike increased effect being a thing on the tree and wish it was gone.
I was ok with t17 when ggg said they were aspirational content. But when they put them in they are mandatory because more loot, boss fragments. Making them mandatory to farm. Worst addition since archnemesis and they really want to die on that hill again.
My problem with powerful loot being gated behind ubers is that, when GGG introduced ubers, they said that it would be challenging content for the sake of challenge. Now it seems that ubers have become a benchmark for bossing.
Benchmark of your pocket xdd
Yo, a cartographer job in Kingsmarch to roll specific maps for you is actually a godlike idea.
If you are struggling with T17´s: Slot in a Scarab of Bisection so you can choose to disable either Prefixes or Suffixes of the Map in the Map Device.
To me it sounds a lot like the "increased effect" is a large part of why most of the mods become really really bad?
Do you remember when their loot was NOT as good? People complained enough that they were forced to "buff" loot, and now people complain that they are TOO lucrative.
Also, a LOT of these arguments can be applied to T16 maps as well! "These builds can't run T16 strats max juice , but we feel forced to run T16 with max juice to be competitive." I think the exact same issues would happen with most expensive scarabs even without T17 maps. As the most efficient strategies have always priced out most players. However I guess that sadly the "top hat" has become a expected always take, without considering the downsides of negative map mod scaling...
Big agree that the reason they fail as a bridge from regular to uber bosses, is because they are simultaneously the pinnacle of mapping. Boss rushing them is kind of a waste in this context. The knock-on effect of this is that now the top farming content in the game is a pool of 5 maps that aren't on the Atlas! What's the point of having favorite map slots, watchstones, scrying maps etc when the endgame is just buy and farm T17s? It'd be like if Sanctum or Delve were far and away the strongest farming content in the game.
While i agree on the most points what really kills t17 for me is that they feels empty(?), they big and profitable and have a lot of stuff, but you never really get the feeling of blasting juiced map. Like when you do on any regular farm maps, when i blast dunes, junglle or whatever farming map you prefer the only downtime is when i loot, other than that you just GO, and that's the kind of bliss i really love in poe endgame, and t17 just dont provide, juiced or not
The gold is a major issue that sucks for people who play significantly less then some nolifers. GGG really really dropped the ball on it. Also most of the community abhors trading in any form, so any farm in their eyes would need to be raw drops.
My hot take: T17s should not be farmable. The Atlas should not apply to them. They should have NO MAP MODS whatsoever, no currency interaction, they should be like keys.
The flipside? Make them super hard in some other way, like only have a single portal and that's it, that's the challenge, no mods. Make it so that if you die in one, it's crushing. Make them even rarer as well, so that while you only need maybe 1 of each for progression, they are expensive.
They should be a gate to uber content, something normal players only feel like they have to do once, they should not be a constant farming goal beyond putting some insane uniques on the bosses maybe to make them like ubers where you can farm them if you want those specific drops, but you don't have to.
The least enjoyable thing ever added in PoE, its wild that the modifers are still as they are even after T17s ruined an entire league.
There was a lot more to Necropolis that ruined that league, T17s were just one misfire.
nah man. archnemesis was the worst
The only issue I have with drowning orbs is them sitting on your portal when you die.
I've been doing t17s with a flicker strike build and I can't tell you how many times a drowning orb has killed me because I flicker striked into it and that's okay, but when I die I used to have cast on death portal and the orb would be there when I came back and insta die
There was a time when you could donsome pretty good damn builds for cheap back in the day. Over the years ggg has nerfed the hell out of certain jobs and skills. Inmean i have made over 500 divines and have a mageblood and headhunters belt. My Ls warden cannot do t17 effectively even with the tons of defensive layers with a savalin shield, 89% to dodge, 90% block chance, 98 spell supression, 71%physical damage reduction, and yet i keep dying in juiced and t17 maps.
When you farm these maps, do you skip the boss? Because the map itself is never an issue for me. But maybe it's a skill issue, but I can't ever seem to get through a boss without using every portal.
nah you gotta do the boss, the fragments are worth too much. Some farms can deal without the boss, but man you do miss out on a lot by skipping
Regarding unlocking the 6th Slot, using the Scarab of Bisection is a godsent by GGG to cut either prefixes or suffixes from the map. I completed Citadel for the first time, including the boss, thanks to skipping like 100% life as ES, 40% inc. monster damage and a LOT% attack cast movespeed ;) left me with only Enfeeble, Endurance Charges for Monsters and Faster Buffs gone (which btw, does NOT affect Charge Duration).
I did have to change my Ascendancy Nodes, realizin' that Trickster's "One Step Ahead" to become Action Speed Immune was also insanely valuabe specifically for that boss, because... well... the arena beams slow you down, the ground effects as well... they became trivial for the most part after speccing this.
I dont get what everyone is crying about, I've made about 95 div so far this league and I havent touched a T17, and I sell most of my scarabs. I also don't invest in increased map mod effect.
Is the fact that T17's are larger, and thereby have more monsters, part of why they feel more mandatory for high price scarabs?
If they were to cut down the size of each T17 map, (thereby reducing amount of monsters, but not density), would that perhaps help?
If only 1% of player base can even do a t17 even after 2 months into league you know there's a problem
Here is my 2 point plan to fix the t17 issue:
1.Nerf T17 bosses map it about the mapping experince since it is a map
2. Add uber fragments to their baseline versions droppool
this would give us to way to farm uber fragments one being focused on mapping one on bossing it would also do something about feeling of normal bosses not having enough value
But maybe im just cooked
In regards to unrunnable mods it would have been nice of you to highlight mods that brick other very popular things such as suppression etc. You are a guidemaker so hopefully that would be within your capabilities. Would make a much better point from that
Insane damage and defence jump from a T16 > T17.
I'm so happy being ignorant of all these t17 is too powerful to ignore type of problem. Im having a blast pieceing my RF little by little in t16 using expedition and harvest. Maybe people speed things up too much and lose value of things too fast as a result. I generally keep it slow this league and am glad there's maasive market of t17 buyers since i can get reliable amount of currency by selling them. Again, not the most div per hour but who cares anyway. I'm progreasing and its all that matters.
My problem is t17s, the scarabs situation, and the loot changes just make the end game no fun anymore. I feel like fun in general is being completely overlooked by GGG right now in general. Its lost on them right now that this is a game it is supposed to be fun. Right now it really feels like work to play this game until u get headhunter or Mageblood and currency stops mattering so much.
I'm talking about this in a video tomorrow, but the sentiment that T16 + scarabs makes no currency couldn't be farther from the truth. Check out some currency farming videos and the google sheet from Milky and you can see many strats that make plenty of divines without ever having to farm T17.
@@TripolarBear oh I make plenty of currency that’s not really the problem. Again, the problem for me it’s just not fun. I started Archmage ball lightning made a couple hundred divines rolled it into Bow Spark. Making currency isn’t the issue. When making currency feels like work instead of playing the game. I know everyone doesn’t feel this way it’s just my opinion.
Easy two steps to resolve the T17 issue. Atlas passive tree does not apply, scarabs do not apply.
Am I crazy or would preventing the atlas passive tree from applying to T17's fix a lot of the FOMO issues? They would still be valuable and have the fragments as a reason to target farm them.
Just feels like they would perform better as a unique content that you opt into rather than forcing everyone to chase it as the new ceiling.
Like how blighted maps/sanctum/delve aren't affected by the tree, but are still worth farming if you want to engage with that content. idk
i just simply wont interact with t17s.
if it doesnt get fixed in poe1 ill simply stop playing when poe2 comes out.
if poe2 has the same stupid easily stopable problems then i simply wont play poe.
As a ps5 player. I will drop out next league and wait for poe2 if the consoles don't get some love. They broke the game so hard that we have less player since the game released on console because most people can't play the game.
PoE: a game with infinite possibilities, hundreds of skills, thousands of combinations and builds possible
Also PoE: only 3 builds can do all content, and you need 2 other characters to farm for hours for items that those build requires if you’re playing ssf
“Get over it” -Mark
And you can always take the less monster damage notable on the tree. That's what I'm doing. Easy tree, easy mods no juicing. At least to get your 6th map device slot.
"Tryhard casual" here. T17s suck and are absolutely a problem, but listening to you speak, you're too close to the issue.
You are a leading content creator. You have probably forgotten more about the game than most players know. I agree with some of your points, but others are done from the perspective of someone grinding this game like it's a full time job.
You need to consider that for the most part, eliminating scarabs from applying to T17s solves the economy problems for most normal humans.
Anyone who plays and enjoys the game is "too close to the issue"
Cmon man don't pretend like im on some high horse looking down at the plebs. My first farm this league was yellow map essence (something you can still do for many div per hour) because I was too weak to do them in reds.
The problem isn't scarabs priced for T17, the problem is people thinking ALL scarabs are. Check out the video later today, but it's a much smaller problem then reddit tells you it is, and I recommend you try a few strats and actually buy a few scarabs and see for your self instead of FEELing they're too expensive. Essence, Expedition, Harvest, Breach, Stacked Deck farming, Ritual, Harbinger, Beast, Blight, Destructive play, these are just a few farms in T16 or lower you can do, not even counting all the stuff you can do outside of maps
@@TripolarBear I did not mean to imply you're on a high horse - I just feel that listening to the currency generation you were talking about vs the issues of T17s, I think that perhaps you think a lot more people are generating way more currency than is happening for average players, which make up a majority of the player base. I could certainly be wrong.
I actually have had no problem with the prices of most scarabs, and I only get to play a few hours every other day or so due to work/life/etc.
Anyways, don't take my previous post as bashing you. That was not my intent at all; I was just sharing my thoughts on "creator level" currency generation vs likely average joe.
I'm a fan all you do for the game - in fact, when I had no idea how to construct my own builds yet and purely followed guides, your Boneshatter Jug on maxroll was the first guide that taught me a TON about key game mechanics and allowed me kill all of the bosses in the game. Keep up the good work. It's appreciated.
Never tried a T17. Every time I make it through the atlas I've already done 20+ challenges and feel burned out on the league. I love PoE but 2 weeks is about as much as I can stomach each league
I like t17s as a chellange and as some aspiration. There is so much content in the game and you can do whatever you like. Just play the game and enjoy what ypu like
People are already doing that. Doesn't mean t17s don't have real issues.
problem with GGG is they keep tying loot to content witch is meant to be a skill flex
ubers should not have better drop pools than normals and t17 shouldn't be affected by scarabs or the tree
buff both back up to make them hard as nails and leave them only as something people test their builds against
the only thing missing is the scarab that lets you just ignore half of the mods if the only thing you want to do is to run and complete them
t17 were fine difficulty-wise last league, but they were too rewarding. They took away my back to basics, didn't have to make the maps easier too
Yes, the loot is not as ridiculous as the last two leagues which were 2 absolutely absurd loot fountain leagues, but if you're not able to make good currency outside of T17, you're just bad at the game. It's just the truth.
Only time ive died to drowning orbs was when I was trying to pick up loot and thinking I had enough time to grab the last couple of things so my fault.
I don't go through reddit, I wasn't even aware of the community's opinion on T17s, and yet, between how bad every non-t17 farm this league has fealt to me and how insane it seems like I can't run t17 on a character that can otherwise ignore every single t16 mod, I can't help but feel like the world revolves around having to play those mapss.
T17s were meant to be a stepping stone content between pinnacle bosses and uber pinnacle bosses. In this regard they are an ABSOLUTE failure. Not only are they harder than uber pinnacle bosses (at least for me) but more often than not they end up just being a stronger version of t16 that has nothing to do with boss killing, AND they feel like a build tax, a "you gotta be this tall to participate in the economy" situation. I'm off to SSF, where I can pretend t17 don't exists. Peace.
For people struggling with completion; just buy the scarab of stability (50% chance not to use a portal). With 9 portals you will be able to achieve completion with any reasonable dps/mod combo.
such a good point im sad i forgot to include that in the video
Also use a Scarab of Bisection to turn off either the prefixes or suffixes!
@@razermaze3444 i heard it remove the multiplier given by that prefix or suffix...is this true?
@@itsallinthepast2944 Yeah it does remove the bonuses but for completion you dont really care about the map
9 portals?! Dude those scarabs are the mvps. I got 15 portals last league in a really rough map. Use them people.
It's just a matter of figuring out what to do. Not all builds can do ubers, so why should majority of builds do T17 efficiently? Didn't they make them as a stepping stone to ubers?
To be fair, most of the community is absolutely clueless about the game. They just follow builds with no idea how they really work and personally I barely scratched the surface after a thousand hours.
Then they reach T17 and they cannot understand what's wrong in the build, what they should prioritise and they don't have access to yet.
The problem is still the same as it has always been, you need good DPS and good defense. No way around it.
And I'm saying that while getting trounced in T17 at this time.
thank god im a mid gamer and never even thought about doing t17
melee build so I doubt I could run anything
Didn't bother with this league because of T17s.
Doing in it Kingsmarch would be great.
Supply gold and chaos orbs (so you can set the max the npc uses) and it has a timer.
Since everyone has to sleep sometime it would be fine to do it overnight.
I genuinely cant run my go to fun t16 map and scarabs. I didnt get a drop for a while and cant sustain it anymore. Im now running some scuffed beyond shrines and extra rares with 8mod t16s. Its fun, but not harbinger or strongboxes type of fun. I hate having chosen an off meta clearspeed build instead of a metacuck build to run t17s with. I fucking hate it and might reroll ssf.
Interesting perspective. Last league I didnt think much of T17s. I didnt like the layouts and didnt find them very rewarding. Makign currency isnt rewarding for me. I am happy collecting enough currency to do what I want. My prime motivator is to have fun whilst playing.
Ubers are a skill check and t17 are gear check, in no way t17 is a bridge gap to ubers
A lot of people have these self fulfilling prophecy type issues, i see lots of comments that are very similar on youtube, too. Most peoples problems are just self created
the quant changes ruined most of the game specially the changes to monster quant
Unfortunatly GGG just nerf t17 wo any balance changes t16. And with one again shadow nerf expedition we will all run sanctums for profits until eventually GGG nerf sanctum...
My issue is that I want to keep my town running but the balance with the cost on it. 12k per hour and that is not with mappers. Like that adds up quickly, and I am rushing maps when I like to do ritual and other slower content. So I'm really annoyed.
Looking at the implementation of T17s really shows the glaring difference between Chris and Mark. I cant imagine Chris saying T17s are a stepping stone to ubers. Worst content in the game
ok this is getting really annoying, ppl are bitching for no reason now, like T17 are at a pretty good spot, I run T17 + deli orb + beyond with a bow build with almost no defences, I die often, but thats the top tier mapping experience, ppl think they want everything to be easy but then they will get bored instantly, T17s are fine now.
How do you use awakened poe to do regex? its something I never learned and probably a lot of other poeple have a hard time with.
Setting page has a regex section. One of the first thing you see pop up
Shift+Space. then you add your own regex and set a name
i think the skill issue IS an issue, the skill and knowledge required for poe is already ridiculous
There's a thing with the gold drop... the mapping bots we're kinda pitched as something that would bring a little of passive income to more casual players but with tier 17 being the best strategy to make gold and the gold drop seemingly balanced with that in mind, the map runners ended being just another plaything for the 1%. I know that's how the real world works but this is a video game we're talking about. They really need to remove gold from t17 they are already rewarding enough.
i'm not sure about the gold profit of t17s. i ran them but the time i invest in rolling and goin through the map,,,ofc if i had mageblood etc, thatd be a nobrainer. but for now, 15k on avg in t16s for 2min runs is good enough for me without having to think too much. could easily go to 20k if i was to add ritual. thats just my experience tho.
Wait, but the devs told me that if I was having trouble with mods, I could just change my build to run them? Who knew that wasn't true.
i only did a t17 for map completion, rolling them for a farm is too annoying even though i should do a t17 version of my normal farms of everything except shit like essence. Makes me feel stupid for not doing it but i'm not willing to deal with the hassle so i'll just sit in t16s making half of what i could. scarabs on t16 is 100% still profitable though, people are full of shit.
So my feedback is that mapping which already been best way of currency farming in the game, got uber version of it, making it extremely beyond everything we have in the game and only complain from people is that... it's too hard... It's brick.. it's not doable by everyone... But when people make 80div/h with t17s its just fine, cuz fuck whatever else.
T17 are mistake, because it caters towards 1% of 1% of players who gonna do it and gonna deal with anything devs can come up with with their 3 mirror worth builds while they make everyone else feeling FOMO of not being able to have fun with it and common market for those punishes weaker players with higher cost of their profit strategies.
So yes, T17 are a design flaw, they shouldn't be meant to be for everyone, they should be somewhat uber maps that require very specific and expensive character and there shouldn't be compromises. Fixing it to make it less painful is same effect as buffing t16s... Doesn't solve anything and creates way more problems like requirement to buff heist, blighted maps, simulacrum and bossing... Do that and you'll have to implement t18s, what's the ultimate problem to be solved with those!?
I don't understand why mappers actually needed anything beyond t16's in poe1. It all could have been achieved with some atlas modifications on t16s and making t17's for everyone is just replacing this system over t16s cuz nobody gonna play that if they can get more.... Really dumb design and i'd rather have it scrapped than wasting GGG's time to fix something that has no strong fundamental design concept.
Idk about the drowning orbs take - I die to them virtually every time I go afk in my maps
stop going afk in your map then.....
Imo map mods that pretty much prevent builds just shouldn't exist, at least not in their current version.
I think negative mods do have a place, to make the content more challenging, but there's a huge difference between something being more challenging and something being impossible to do.
And although you can build around some of the mods, doing something like reducing reflect damage taken in order to be able to run a higher % of your rolled maps isn't something I find interesting. It's not gameplay you can feel, it just allows you to play the game.
Map mods that brick builds should be exclusive to legendary maps
If the idea of "fun" is doing 1 thing over and over for currency, I dont feel bad for you. All these issues people complain about I share 0 of the feelings in ssf.
I agree with the whole rolling the map part. But regarding the feeling forced to run the map i think people need to stop complaining like some ho's. I have run 2 T17's this league. One for my 6th slot, and one to test the power of my build, nothing else. This is the league wher i've earned the most, and it's all been from running breach and deli. Making consistent currency over time with a cheap and easy strat, beats sweating in t17s and spending 5 minutes rolling every map any day
Here's an idea : how about T17 at the start being basically the same as T16s, but each time you complete a certain number of them, you get to add (or upgrade!) a juicy T17 mod to the pool of your next runs. May be you get to choose between 3 random ones and a skip.
With each level of... what should we call it... hmm, corruption :D, you choose to add, you get more juice, with may be some breakpoints (for uniques to drop or whatever).
This way the endgame takes longer to "finish", and for us plebs who can't or don't want to run fully formed T17 abomination, we can find a middle ground.
Also, we could see how long it takes Steve to get to max :D
So there is good feedback, we just gotta ignore the bad ones.. i swear every league that has problems is like this in poe. Why i distance myself cause its just tiring.
Yeah gotta disagree with you on this one, the reason there are hundreds of upvotes is because there are a lot of people who feel the same. Remember that this is a game, and for most people its not their career and so very often are not running super min maxed optimised shit and so for most people things like scarabs are quite literally too expensive. The idea the T17's are not warping Scarab prices is just not true
The idea of having a middle section between Regular and Uber bossing is smart, but these bosses are still harder than ubers 💀
I severely dislike t17s as they are now. PoE builds to me always seem to be good map clearers or good boss dps with a very few builds being good at both. My current build LS Deadeye doesn't have the best single target, but can AoE clear maps very well. I clear t16s with ease and clear the mobs on t17s with ease, but then the boss is just a nightmare. I don't want to be forced to make a build good enough to kill the t17 map bosses because the entire economy inflates itself to the value that t17 pumpers are accumulating. It just doesn't feel right.
i suspect GGG expects it to be treated as tradeoff, e.g. don't use modifier effect and then you don't need to lose 30-50c rolling.
but that's obviously not how playerbase perceives it...
in all likelyhood they go like "we heard you, modifier effect is removed from the atlas"
frankly, by it's verry nature, map effect should not have been a thing at all from the beginning, just by how binary and non-choice it is. top hat was already pushing it, but with all the extra wheels, not taking the effect, makes any non-loot tile a dead strategy from the get go, and it just creates multiplier problems overall, as without any map effect, quant is so low, that nothing ever drops in comparison to with map effect. Maps just don drop loot any more, other than the extreme top case due to how ggg have been retooling loot, to only be in loot tiles, and trying their hardest to remove any and all ground loot.
All this has been a problem since kalandra, but it was masked by MASSIVE league specific multipliers and stacking of things to even get ok loot, but in that scenario, when you stack them correctly, then we have necropolis extremes again. And this league, after ggg both nerfed loot again, AND there is no massive multiplier from the leage mechanic, and we'r back to poverty leage, where it's t17 or bust for ground loot. Or you run loot tiles, but other than essence t6. You still need to run t17, since the economy is balanced around the top end use case for the scarabs. The same as how all currency is balanced around top end crafting
@@gampie13
well yeah map mod effect has to go.
but not all scarabs are priced around t17, most tile ones don't benefit from t17 that too much
@@Wrongusername2 half true half false. all scarabs have resell value to the vendor in the 3 to 1 for a random scarab, which is then in equilibrium of the meta, which is driven majorly by the top end
Personally I don't like it at all. If it is a "bridge to ubers" just be bosses. If it is "uber mappng" don't have bosses which are a bit nope for most builds. Also fighting against map mods instead of mobs isn't great design. Just chaos spam until your build can run them. This on top all floor drops moved to T17 just feels off.
I'd say:
1. move Uber Boss keys to their NON UBER variants
2. Bring down loot a lot or nerf it in some way like "your atlas tree does not work here"
3: Do away with brick mods. They are not entertaining or funny. And spamming chaos is not engaging gameplay. Find a better Chaos sink if you want one!
I think the acquisition for t17s should not be from ONLY map drops i think base bosses like regular exarch and stuff should have a chance to drop 1 to 3 t17s to give incentive to grind old bosses again. and ubers should guarantee drop 3 with a chance of dropping up to 5 so more maps are in the economy from not just map drop spam. I also think side content like Jun alva beast should have ways of getting t17s as well like the alva map room tier 3 should have a bench to convert 1 t16 to a t17 and so on so then people would stop complaining about mods since they can just get a surplus to roll and stuff or buy the easy ones off the market and such mix up the farms ya know.
Yea I realized as a hexblast miner you literally can ignore every mod except hexproof if you have enough damage.
Wait, what does the increased effect of "Deal no damage for 4 seconds every 10 seconds" look like? Do you have your damage shut off for 3/4 of the time you're in there?
Not every mod actually scales with mod effect (ie. Area has patches of burning ground) so it might not change anything
In my opinion T17s make even bigger gap between casual and hardcore players than ever before. People run these maps day2-3 while some people will never even be able to run them properly. When I started clearing them and saw the loot I've got I was shocked. T16 maps now feel like a waste of time and yet some people might never be able to run T17. Where is the loot in t16? I've dropped 2 divines in these 2 weeks, I've never seen such bad loot yet. Investing in to t16 feels waste of time. Dunno the progression just feels off now. Changes to uber boss invitations are as horrible, before we used to be able to sell eater and exarch invitations at least if we are not lucky with drops or still too weak to juice. Everything feels now taken out and put further away so that more casual players couldn't even progress.
Add monaters are immune to chaos damage to mod pool. Problem solved 🤑
I've only ran 1 t17 for completion and made more currency than I have in any other league, people are so dramatic
maybe you are a bit too dumb to understand the problems but you could be making at least 3x more currency if you had ran t17 instead of doing other things.
T17's would probably be better by now if they didn't have to play so much whack a mole in Necropolis.
NAAAAAIIIILLLLSSSS
>reddit
I think I found the problem with T17s
ive legit heard of 5 guild mates who have strictly farmed t17s and have gotten nimis head hunter mageblood and are very rich...
The whole problem with t17s is the 3rd part you list. and the solution is to make them not t17s that are tiered in mapping beyond t16s. Do something unique to bridge between the unique lower bossing content and the unique higher content. Throwing in this whole new system of endgame mapping is just completely stupid, every single problem in t17s is forced because they tried to forced that "3rd thing added" (aka the entire part of them being mapping content). The rest of your thoughts are all saying this, but you (and most CCs I have watched) tip-toe around this point instead of just clearly stating that fact and clearly stating the obvious. They are bad as mapping content, in basically every way. They much more fit the theme of unique maps, and should have been unique maps, and NONE of these problems would have to exist. It's literally that simple, delete them and make some unique bossing maps to fit inbetween the other unique bossing content just like they said they wanted.
I won't go on but even if other t16 things are worthwhile, they are always going to be expressive to everything t16 which is everything mapping we have built up over a decade now. It makes no sense. For me, it's even worse, because I like most out of map content gaming. Logbooks, Tomes, Blueprints, Synth map farming...all this kind of stuf has already been left to rot/nerf via "reworks" in the past couple years. They add t16s and all of that stuff just feels even more despair to engage with. It sucks. I don't get why it was needed at all. None of that side content was top tier for a while now anyway, and now it's all just flat out worse. Why?