Does it really use so much? This is not just disk cache? This happens in Linux, i guess it is the same in Windows. There is memory that is actually needed for the running Programs. Then there are cached files, every time you read or write something from or to the disk, the OS keeps a copy of the data in RAM in case you need to read it again, to make the access fast. Only when you run out of free memory, the OS will free up the memory.
urxvtd/urxvtc has other advantages as well, like faster startup times per terminal. But I have had some cases where urxvtd uses alot more ram than plain old urxvt
st is by no means perfect but imo there is a lot more to a terminal than raw megs when running. There is also size on the system and features. And while st might lack a few things by default (like xresources support, which I don't care about). It is built with the suckless philosophy which makes it incredibly easy to hack on extend in any way you see fit. At the moment I have only 4 patches installed of which I feel like I really use 3. Scrollback, anysize and externalpipe. None of them really add any weight to the program. Also it is a single binary with no extra config files etc. You can also have a look at the st goals and features page. There are things it does better than urxvt like proper unicode and truecolor support out of box. This is by no means hate and you have a valid point if the only thing you care about in a terminal is how light it is. However there are more things to a terminal and those things can vary person by person. So if all you care about is a fully featured terminal with no regards to weight or extensibility, by all means, use kitty or Konsole. As long as it fullfills what you need
Terminal bloat has been ridiculed by purist through plenty flamewars, as recent as the VIM feuds and even within the Mono community, resulting in a community split between the Atom Editor and Sublime Text. Fuelled from Gedit and Geany editors and these text editors are better equipped (for programming) than than ancient vi, ed or edlin. They are not considered full IDE's, but they are functional and stylish apps nevertheless.
Nice video Mental! I love that there are a lot more *nix vids! Heads up, likely you might already know, but you can always :r! (in vim) and read in the output from a command (requires no scripting since it already exists), and saves resources (if you are looking for that) because you can all do it in the same terminal session.
Thanks for making this video, been trying myself to get my setup as minimal as possible. Around 6:04 you've been talking about getting the output of a command into vim, there is a easier way of doing this; in (neo)vim execute :r!{any command} and it will put that result at your the position of your cursor.
People have a wrong assumptions abt ram usage, because your ram shows the unit in use doesn't mean all those units are in used by that process. The kernel is built to optimize processes with caching just as the browser does with network request and CPU LR Cache registers too. When you run a process the kernel uses extra ram/memory to cache data/codes/constants.... because of the kernel virtual memory abstraction security and to eliminate the round trip to fetch, load, compute and store which is the fundamental work of the cpu. Even though each processes believe he's the only one running and has unlimited memory to use. Data is constantly reading out of ssd and writing back but not immediately back to hdd/ssd. The kernel need to hold this data somewhere because it might still be needed or will take some resources from other processes to write it back so it hold it and pre allocate the sector. There is a lot of stuff going on behind the scene especially with memory, however if a process need the so called memory it will be allocated to such process else if it's free the kernel surely use it. So used memory and available memory is very misleading without proper understanding of Memory management which is the main priority of the kernel.
in command set terminology you exactly describe the behaviour of BSD's -h argument, translated to Human readable. It intermingles with the -v option, translated to verbose. But this kind of distinction is usually done through repo's and not via yt comments.
RE: copying terminal output... I tried setting up urxvt to do copy to clipboard, in the end I found the process rather fiddlyy. Much easier to redirect command output to file with > or >> (append end of an existing file).
you need to install a module to run this advanced setup. What you describe is the piping method; the only sane and most common workflow for scripters, ie. bash, php, javascript, and visual basic. So daemons and services should be bread and butter for any sysadmin.
How do you get Gentoo and Void to get down to like ~50mb? I could only get Gentoo down to 78MB cold boot no GUI and 128MB tty void linux no customizations.
I'd say your default setup is the best depart for programming in web languages like php or javascript. Thanks for publishing that work to github. I'll try to merge in DT's yield, ~2.2 MB scripts since ~2017. I also announce some manual shuffling in the que to process yields.; more targeted. And about the bugs with the bar and st. Are you using dwmblocks or polybar? Polybar is written in C, and traditionally preferred by the tiling guys with a sort of autism. They don't care much about bling however.
I recently switched from Manjaro to Arcolinux and they have urxvt as their default terminal and I just love it. It's now been my default terminal for past 2 weeks and I really like. The only 2 problems that I have is urxvt doesn't support agnoster/powerlevel10k themes properly and if you time st vs urxvt st launches faster(st = 0.016 avg vs urxvt = 0.031 avg) But apart from that it's really awesome. Plus I don't need to worry about, if Suckless releasing a new version of St and my patches may or may not work with that new version
surely there is a perl extention to do just that, to support agnoster/powerlevel10k themes. But for a fair test you should start st from both urxvt and xterm, and measure how long it takes to load your users profile file and .xresource file. With a siilar setup ofc. For finetuning, specifying resource types is what brings insight in these memory hogs. This is authority control, typically managed via sudo and cgroups(2) on linux and doas on the *bsd OS'es.
URXVT is awesome. If only it didn't bug me with truecolor and emojis, I would never have left it. Probably that's part of the reason for it to have a little less memory footprint than st.
Same goes for xterm so it's a universal shell prompt quirks. You'll need .xresources anyway, to run either of them, and then you can start st from either. I don't get your point. Terminal bling and shell glitter ain't that exiting. Pretty static since ancient machines, with only one or 2 (if you included the fonts) mayor transitions. Linux is a only small fraction of Desktop users, and programmers using the prompt is not even a bigger sub-sliced way of seeing the same data as let's framework like .NET or JDK.
@@Asdayasman My reply was not directly directed at you but to all other casual readers passing by. Still, Kdenlive has a video editing workflow and is popular on the Linux Desktop.
urxvt is great for underpowered hardware, it has some server mode where You can spawn low cost tabs in it, guess it does not concerne tiling WM users, on my main box I use tmux in dropdown mode with alacritty (since I use XFCE), it performs quite well, taking your standards into consideration, tmux plugins solve all issues, maybe You try it ? :)
Other thing is st cpu spikes in Xorg when spamming mod+j or mod+k with high xset r rate's compared to any other terminal besides alacritty. I use xset r rate 300 60 and when spamming between 2 terminals Xorg spikes very high
Did you achieve your 32 MB RAM goal that you outlined for your prompt? Xterm, urxvt and st all are small enough to have in your toolbox. urxvt for perl, st for suckless text and xterm for x gui server support. Simply seperate all your tiling workflows to ie. Tmux, and avoid lot's of over-specialisation. The F(L)OSS sucess of KDE didn't just happen over night and it's impossible to blame that all on systemd while Xorg, gnome and Mozilla are making up even more important elements of the Linux. Besides, reality is that init and package managers are more dominant in the Linux definition. The Libre definition is mostly corrupted by the FSFe versus FSF feud, aswell as seen in software for drivers and binutils. Most approaches as seen with modern OS'es are geared around binutils and demand a login manager anyway. Btw. I also prefer the old Gimp (with the farbfeld plugin) over Inkscape.
... and Blender. I say this due to terminals being a linguistic minefield. Literally. Departing from Unix shell command sets, it even worsened due to web-languages like PHP and Javascript, but not after Pascal went all-in with objects. We're arrived at either the Russia hoax, or the Laws of Thermodynamics, and, as The Brandenburger Zeppelin crash learned us, insurance companies. Maybe the biggest reasoning flaw among all modern philosophers except for this digisoof overhere ;-) Using linguistics like a pugilist.... (Young Guns films, anyone?) If I were a MMA fighter, I would be nicknamed "SugarCoat", and I would dress like Puff Daddy in his glory days. The walk in song 🎵 would be Eminem. But for the whole slave music genre, I remain loyal to Bob Marley and Alpha Blondy. The latter since he represented the true rasta resistance spirit. Ok, maybe a bit too much Rastafaried and not enough Babylonized, but the dubaholics, all im Zeitgeist, provide reasonable counter-weight. However, you can still sense that the slave burden, although measured in decimals, isn't as light as a feather. Note that my mothers tongue is not native to Queens English, but my word-choice is endorsed by Merriam-Webster. Not Oxford English, not Cambridge English, but the more global Business English since Linnaeus. lol, like stenography in spoken words. We should make AI the trainer of a Bonobo, a dedicated tutor to explore communicative skills of apes, from human perspective. This time I won't remind to a film like Planet of the Apes, but the amazing filmography of David Attenborough. All his works become better over time, cumulating in 1996 IMAX masterpiece - "Survival Island: South Georgia island" -. Not sure if he's the one communicating with the ape though. But plenty zoo-keepers did that; some of these people even befriended wildlife animals, including predators like lions and crocodiles. The value of David's archive (including x# of 3D films about penguins, plants, monsters and the 3D series filmed at the Royal Botanical Gardens, in Kew) is a timeline in to nature> Most of his lessons are summed up while being an interviewee, by Ray Martin. His message to humanity is that watching birds breeding to shoot film on the Galapagos Island is boring and Earth's precious gems should be protected at all costs. I like to call him 3D_Darwin or Davy_IMAX... 💯Digisofism💯Full Moon Intuition 💯
I think u misunderstand the point of having less code lines ? Its not just oh minimalism for the sake of minimalism. memory usage altho you tend to get by default is not the only factor here. U can actually read the whole st code and understand the gist of it in like an afternoon or two. And: Less code == less attack surface == more security.
less code not means less attack surface, carefully written programs means less attack surface and more security. for example st could use seccomp for less attack surface (its like pledge in openbsd) but st not implement it because it will make more code lines.
@@ligayadelapacion4164 Definitely wrong. less tests for memory , wrong design, trying to fix somethings fast. Amatour programmers, these can cause problems, more simpler yes make that testing and design easier but less code also means less fault or security control at code also. check seccomp api for how much lines it needs for implement security hardening.
@@taylan5376 having a clean program makes it more shorter and faster and more secure. So less code = more simpler and fewer things to go wrong. And a lot cleaner than more bloated program
urxvt dont support true color only 256 color. that means if no optimization at st it will cost at least 3 times more memory. and st is about less code line not about optimizations. (its arguable its right way to do things or not). they could change buffers depends on true color request or not but its extra lines and conditions. code base become bigger. dwm , st suckless tools. good start point for other projects. but i cant say its way to go for end users. for me st cause even crashes didnt check code or gdb output for what it cause.
i'd say the whole strategy of companies is keeping end-users away from prompt, already since Windows 3.11, and reserving that domain for admins and apps like Powershell. WSL provides the bridge to Linux and Android. So the question is: How is True Color support integrated in MS Visual Studio or Apple equivalent? Linux Desktop is trying to make a bump in user-space, but FOSS software is not something people are used to. Most people hardly know of the concept.
Using someone else's build/config is usually not a good idea since that config/build is made specifically for other person's preference, it's especially bad with something like st because you might spend more time fighting with someone else's config than making it a terminal of your dreams. I don't see anything hard with patching suckless' stuff, you simply apply diff files and that's it.
Sure until that person doesn't release a diff file, like Luke isn't. Also, if you just fork his build and then change the probably 3-5 hotkeys you didn't like about it, that's surely not more work than applying 3-5 patches.
Luke's dotfiles are everywhere 🤣
Me: Works on windows that consumes 3-4 GiB on startup
Gentoo User: Oh my god my system consumes 70MiB, I have to install a suckless terminal
Ha, mine consumes fucking half the ram, 8 gigs just to run the computer 🙄
@@tacahs12 windows?
Does it really use so much? This is not just disk cache?
This happens in Linux, i guess it is the same in Windows. There is memory that is actually needed for the running Programs. Then there are cached files, every time you read or write something from or to the disk, the OS keeps a copy of the data in RAM in case you need to read it again, to make the access fast. Only when you run out of free memory, the OS will free up the memory.
my arch linux is ~300MiB
@@ari_archer pet yourself on your back.
You can trim urxvt's RAM usage even more by using the urxvtd daemon and then spawning urxvtc instances.
urxvtd/urxvtc has other advantages as well, like faster startup times per terminal. But I have had some cases where urxvtd uses alot more ram than plain old urxvt
@sensor then why would they offer such a feature?
st is by no means perfect but imo there is a lot more to a terminal than raw megs when running. There is also size on the system and features. And while st might lack a few things by default (like xresources support, which I don't care about). It is built with the suckless philosophy which makes it incredibly easy to hack on extend in any way you see fit.
At the moment I have only 4 patches installed of which I feel like I really use 3. Scrollback, anysize and externalpipe. None of them really add any weight to the program.
Also it is a single binary with no extra config files etc. You can also have a look at the st goals and features page. There are things it does better than urxvt like proper unicode and truecolor support out of box.
This is by no means hate and you have a valid point if the only thing you care about in a terminal is how light it is. However there are more things to a terminal and those things can vary person by person. So if all you care about is a fully featured terminal with no regards to weight or extensibility, by all means, use kitty or Konsole. As long as it fullfills what you need
Terminal bloat has been ridiculed by purist through plenty flamewars, as recent as the VIM feuds and even within the Mono community, resulting in a community split between the Atom Editor and Sublime Text. Fuelled from Gedit and Geany editors and these text editors are better equipped (for programming) than than ancient vi, ed or edlin.
They are not considered full IDE's, but they are functional and stylish apps nevertheless.
Nice video Mental! I love that there are a lot more *nix vids! Heads up, likely you might already know, but you can always :r! (in vim) and read in the output from a command (requires no scripting since it already exists), and saves resources (if you are looking for that) because you can all do it in the same terminal session.
Thanks for making this video, been trying myself to get my setup as minimal as possible. Around 6:04 you've been talking about getting the output of a command into vim, there is a easier way of doing this; in (neo)vim execute :r!{any command} and it will put that result at your the position of your cursor.
Thanks for your videos about Gentoo, DWM, suckless. Keep doing this. I’m at begin of Gentoo cooking and find your videos useful.
People have a wrong assumptions abt ram usage, because your ram shows the unit in use doesn't mean all those units are in used by that process. The kernel is built to optimize processes with caching just as the browser does with network request and CPU LR Cache registers too. When you run a process the kernel uses extra ram/memory to cache data/codes/constants.... because of the kernel virtual memory abstraction security and to eliminate the round trip to fetch, load, compute and store which is the fundamental work of the cpu. Even though each processes believe he's the only one running and has unlimited memory to use. Data is constantly reading out of ssd and writing back but not immediately back to hdd/ssd. The kernel need to hold this data somewhere because it might still be needed or will take some resources from other processes to write it back so it hold it and pre allocate the sector. There is a lot of stuff going on behind the scene especially with memory, however if a process need the so called memory it will be allocated to such process else if it's free the kernel surely use it. So used memory and available memory is very misleading without proper understanding of Memory management which is the main priority of the kernel.
in command set terminology you exactly describe the behaviour of BSD's -h argument, translated to Human readable. It intermingles with the -v option, translated to verbose.
But this kind of distinction is usually done through repo's and not via yt comments.
RE: copying terminal output...
I tried setting up urxvt to do copy to clipboard, in the end I found the process rather fiddlyy.
Much easier to redirect command output to file with > or >> (append end of an existing file).
you need to install a module to run this advanced setup. What you describe is the piping method; the only sane and most common workflow for scripters, ie. bash, php, javascript, and visual basic. So daemons and services should be bread and butter for any sysadmin.
How do you get Gentoo and Void to get down to like ~50mb? I could only get Gentoo down to 78MB cold boot no GUI and 128MB tty void linux no customizations.
See Mental's install vid
I'd say your default setup is the best depart for programming in web languages like php or javascript. Thanks for publishing that work to github. I'll try to merge in DT's yield, ~2.2 MB scripts since ~2017. I also announce some manual shuffling in the que to process yields.; more targeted.
And about the bugs with the bar and st. Are you using dwmblocks or polybar? Polybar is written in C, and traditionally preferred by the tiling guys with a sort of autism. They don't care much about bling however.
1:51 Do you have a keybinding for magnifying your screen? If so, how did you manage to do this?
His hostname is "gentbox" so I assume he's actually in a VM.
I recently switched from Manjaro to Arcolinux and they have urxvt as their default terminal and I just love it. It's now been my default terminal for past 2 weeks and I really like. The only 2 problems that I have is urxvt doesn't support agnoster/powerlevel10k themes properly and if you time st vs urxvt st launches faster(st = 0.016 avg vs urxvt = 0.031 avg) But apart from that it's really awesome. Plus I don't need to worry about, if Suckless releasing a new version of St and my patches may or may not work with that new version
surely there is a perl extention to do just that, to support agnoster/powerlevel10k themes. But for a fair test you should start st from both urxvt and xterm, and measure how long it takes to load your users profile file and .xresource file. With a siilar setup ofc. For finetuning, specifying resource types is what brings insight in these memory hogs.
This is authority control, typically managed via sudo and cgroups(2) on linux and doas on the *bsd OS'es.
interesting video thank you ! now is interesting to compare on my system
I find vte-based terminal easily customizable (since every machine has gtk and simple css formats) my picks would be lxTerminal, k3rmit, xfce4's
Unfortunately vte blows ass so there's that.
Matte with Marco WM is also pretty cool. Runs Tinkt2 and Enlightenment browser.
URXVT is awesome. If only it didn't bug me with truecolor and emojis, I would never have left it.
Probably that's part of the reason for it to have a little less memory footprint than st.
@big bogg Guilty as charged. 🙂
Same goes for xterm so it's a universal shell prompt quirks. You'll need .xresources anyway, to run either of them, and then you can start st from either. I don't get your point.
Terminal bling and shell glitter ain't that exiting. Pretty static since ancient machines, with only one or 2 (if you included the fonts) mayor transitions. Linux is a only small fraction of Desktop users, and programmers using the prompt is not even a bigger sub-sliced way of seeing the same data as let's framework like .NET or JDK.
I'd be interested to see your workflow for video editing in Blender.
Kdenlive is more popular on Linux Desktop, as is OBS. Or Camtasia on Apple.
@@MsDuketown OBS is not video editing software. You are also not the person I was asking.
@@Asdayasman My reply was not directly directed at you but to all other casual readers passing by. Still, Kdenlive has a video editing workflow and is popular on the Linux Desktop.
it is been three years and mister kenny did not fix this video is title yet
Termianl
shell compliant though
that moment when the title is spelled wrong
Termi anal
lol, IANAL
urxvt is great for underpowered hardware, it has some server mode where You can spawn low cost tabs in it, guess it does not concerne tiling WM users, on my main box I use tmux in dropdown mode with alacritty (since I use XFCE), it performs quite well, taking your standards into consideration, tmux plugins solve all issues, maybe You try it ? :)
Other thing is st cpu spikes in Xorg when spamming mod+j or mod+k with high xset r rate's compared to any other terminal besides alacritty. I use xset r rate 300 60 and when spamming between 2 terminals Xorg spikes very high
Did you isolate the scenario's or find a better setup?
@@MsDuketown nah not really, just decided on alacritty.
Did you achieve your 32 MB RAM goal that you outlined for your prompt?
Xterm, urxvt and st all are small enough to have in your toolbox.
urxvt for perl, st for suckless text and xterm for x gui server support.
Simply seperate all your tiling workflows to ie. Tmux, and avoid lot's of over-specialisation.
The F(L)OSS sucess of KDE didn't just happen over night and it's impossible to blame that all on systemd while Xorg, gnome and Mozilla are making up even more important elements of the Linux. Besides, reality is that init and package managers are more dominant in the Linux definition.
The Libre definition is mostly corrupted by the FSFe versus FSF feud, aswell as seen in software for drivers and binutils.
Most approaches as seen with modern OS'es are geared around binutils and demand a login manager anyway.
Btw.
I also prefer the old Gimp (with the farbfeld plugin) over Inkscape.
... and Blender.
I say this due to terminals being a linguistic minefield. Literally. Departing from Unix shell command sets, it even worsened due to web-languages like PHP and Javascript, but not after Pascal went all-in with objects.
We're arrived at either the Russia hoax, or the Laws of Thermodynamics, and, as The Brandenburger Zeppelin crash learned us, insurance companies. Maybe the biggest reasoning flaw among all modern philosophers except for this digisoof overhere ;-)
Using linguistics like a pugilist.... (Young Guns films, anyone?)
If I were a MMA fighter, I would be nicknamed "SugarCoat", and I would dress like Puff Daddy in his glory days. The walk in song 🎵 would be Eminem. But for the whole slave music genre, I remain loyal to Bob Marley and Alpha Blondy. The latter since he represented the true rasta resistance spirit. Ok, maybe a bit too much Rastafaried and not enough Babylonized, but the dubaholics, all im Zeitgeist, provide reasonable counter-weight. However, you can still sense that the slave burden, although measured in decimals, isn't as light as a feather.
Note that my mothers tongue is not native to Queens English, but my word-choice is endorsed by Merriam-Webster. Not Oxford English, not Cambridge English, but the more global Business English since Linnaeus. lol, like stenography in spoken words. We should make AI the trainer of a Bonobo, a dedicated tutor to explore communicative skills of apes, from human perspective. This time I won't remind to a film like Planet of the Apes, but the amazing filmography of David Attenborough. All his works become better over time, cumulating in 1996 IMAX masterpiece - "Survival Island: South Georgia island" -. Not sure if he's the one communicating with the ape though. But plenty zoo-keepers did that; some of these people even befriended wildlife animals, including predators like lions and crocodiles.
The value of David's archive (including x# of 3D films about penguins, plants, monsters and the 3D series filmed at the Royal Botanical Gardens, in Kew) is a timeline in to nature> Most of his lessons are summed up while being an interviewee, by Ray Martin. His message to humanity is that watching birds breeding to shoot film on the Galapagos Island is boring and Earth's precious gems should be protected at all costs. I like to call him 3D_Darwin or Davy_IMAX...
💯Digisofism💯Full Moon Intuition 💯
How did you get your X server to use this little RAM?
he use virtual machine. so he dont need big screen buffers inside X.
can you give me your dwm and status bar configs file?
I think u misunderstand the point of having less code lines ? Its not just oh minimalism for the sake of minimalism. memory usage altho you tend to get by default is not the only factor here. U can actually read the whole st code and understand the gist of it in like an afternoon or two.
And: Less code == less attack surface == more security.
less code not means less attack surface, carefully written programs means less attack surface and more security. for example st could use seccomp for less attack surface (its like pledge in openbsd) but st not implement it because it will make more code lines.
@@taylan5376 less code lines = more simpler and fewer things to go wrong.
@@ligayadelapacion4164 Definitely wrong. less tests for memory , wrong design, trying to fix somethings fast. Amatour programmers, these can cause problems, more simpler yes make that testing and design easier but less code also means less fault or security control at code also. check seccomp api for how much lines it needs for implement security hardening.
@@taylan5376 having a clean program makes it more shorter and faster and more secure. So less code = more simpler and fewer things to go wrong. And a lot cleaner than more bloated program
@@ligayadelapacion4164 Started programming less then 10 years right ? :) ok if you think so, think like that :)
Could you make some video about systemd?
urxvt dont support true color only 256 color. that means if no optimization at st it will cost at least 3 times more memory. and st is about less code line not about optimizations. (its arguable its right way to do things or not). they could change buffers depends on true color request or not but its extra lines and conditions. code base become bigger. dwm , st suckless tools. good start point for other projects. but i cant say its way to go for end users. for me st cause even crashes didnt check code or gdb output for what it cause.
i'd say the whole strategy of companies is keeping end-users away from prompt, already since Windows 3.11, and reserving that domain for admins and apps like Powershell. WSL provides the bridge to Linux and Android.
So the question is: How is True Color support integrated in MS Visual Studio or Apple equivalent? Linux Desktop is trying to make a bump in user-space, but FOSS software is not something people are used to. Most people hardly know of the concept.
Can we have your github links?
If my previous reply got shadow deleted for having a link, it's the repo named MentalOutlaw. Just look up Mental Outlaw github
termianls
Hello nice video. How can I open st-terminal maximized ?? Thanks.
Using someone else's build/config is usually not a good idea since that config/build is made specifically for other person's preference, it's especially bad with something like st because you might spend more time fighting with someone else's config than making it a terminal of your dreams. I don't see anything hard with patching suckless' stuff, you simply apply diff files and that's it.
Sure until that person doesn't release a diff file, like Luke isn't. Also, if you just fork his build and then change the probably 3-5 hotkeys you didn't like about it, that's surely not more work than applying 3-5 patches.
@@magnusanderson6681 I had to comment out about half of luke's hotkeys. So much bloat!
Termianl
you misspelled the title!
st is bloat :)
Upload your urxvt colorscheme to github
muh bloat meanwhile your klogd is using 100% cpu
Why do you ask "How are you doing guys?"?
It's a greeting. Even in person, it's not exactly answered as a genuine question.
@@s.v.dedicated9621 hmm! :)
Termianal
Clark Robert Garcia Shirley Allen Sandra
termianl
human is bloat
the title triggers me too much
Termianl
termianl
Termianl