An ancient sparky says "Ryan = The New Mike Holt"! Thank you for you content. Your videos are great. As a retired volunteer firefighter/medic from the People's Republic of NJ 230.85 is GREAT! No more pulling ENERGIZED meters !! No more 2-hour waits for utility company arrival. Fantastic!!
Don't know why someone would be crying about a surge protector. They're fairly cheap, and easy to install. I put one in my house six years ago, and not only has it protected all my devices, it kept the aliens from attacking.
230.71 makes perfect sense to me and I have been practicing it for about 10 years. About 10 years ago I upgraded the service at a uniform laundry plant. The engineer in an effort to save money for the client did not call for a main in the MDP but rather 3 breakers feeding 2 other panels and a 480-120/240 delta high leg XFMR to feed legacy loads. Sure as hell literally the week after we were done the owner decided to change their compressors from 240v to new more efficient 480v units and they were 20' from the new MDP. Engineer says no problem lets add 2 more 100a breakers to the MDP we are still under six disconnects. A stand by outage for Florida Power & Light costs about $1200 on off hours. Yea leaving that main out saved them money I am sure.
I hate how stupid people are when it comes to infastructure in a home or business. These are types of actions that will cost you a tremendous amount of money and will only save a few hundred bucks at the front end. These are the same types of Execs that have no problem blowing money on dumb shit like private jets, limos and expensive dinners on the company dime.
230.85 is for 1st responders. Yep but in central FL we have had this rule for 35 years and 1st responders are still trained in this area not to enter a structure until utility says it is de-energized, which means the jacks at the transformer have been pulled or the lateral cut.
I’ve watched several of your videos and couldn’t shake where I have seen you before. Than it hit me. Mike Holt code training. Nice work. Keep it going into the next generation.
Minute 8.06 - Section 230.62 - I agree this guarding makes sense and improves personnel safety. However, to me it can't be said that it in itself meets NFPA70E, because the insulators/guards only provide shock protection and may reduce the potential for an arc blast, but don't eliminate it. So I think that the person is still required to have the same justifications for live work and to take the same arc flash prevention precautions.
230.71 ? Im used to the "no more than 6 disconnects.." So will a condominium with 20 units have 20 disconnects now with 20 different service feeders from the utility company now ? Dosnt seem or sound practical..
1 commercial building with 5 tenats/units/meters will each have there own meter and means of disconnect feeding from the main distribution bus bar or service feeders..
This guarding is getting ridiculous. What’s next are we going to have to guard our screwdriver when we get it out. Isn’t that why the code says qualified personnel, so as you know what you can and cannot touch
A final clarification, installing this outside disconnect, whether it be a separate or a combination meter/ disconnect, will the inside panel become a sub-panel requiring grounding and bonding at the outside disconnect?
All day Jack, you're spot on. Everything after the new *service* disconnect becomes "sub". The GECs will have to be either replaced or extended, re-routed and landed in the exterior service disconnect, and all the grounded and ungrounded conductors separately terminated in the "new" indoor sub-panel, which includes removing any bonding mechanism. I'll bet a few less experienced electricians and inspectors may not catch that.
Move to Colorado we’re required to cold sequence the meter on commercial services, AND install meter bypasses on them so would that be considered a service disconnect? We are also required to install meter bypasses on everything else... I believe Texas is required to also.
Thank Ryan. Jersey just adopted the 2020 in October and I’m just starting to have to deal with it. I have a 4 position meter stack to replace and I’m guessing I’ll need a disconnect now. There is no room for this disconnect. I’ll be consulting the AHJ for an opinion on this. Also bidding my first house with the new rules and I’m guessing I’ll be consulting that AHJ also. Question though, your meter/disconnect at the end of the video had multiple breakers in it. It did not look like the breaker marked service/emg disconnect would shut down everything
Question for you. The 2020 NEC requires a GFCI protected receptacle within 25 ft of a panelboard. I have an apartment complex and each apartment has one indoor panelboard. Where can the branch circuit (serving that receptacle for the panelboard) be fed from? This new section states the following: The required receptacle outlet shall not be connected to the load side of the equipment's branch- circuit disconnecting means. I would appreciate your help. Thanks. Enjoy your videos.
@ 9:10 you stated that if a panel does not have the covers over lugs feeding main breaker havevto call ultility company for a power shutdown. If you are a qualified electrician with proper PPE and insulated tools perfectly safe to work on panel. In my area can take weeks for lazy PECO/Exelon to come out. I was.helping my buddy replace his 2 gang metet socket. Less then 2 hours after he pulled smart meters they came out to investigate. Thanks Ryan for another great vid.
great job Ryan. I watched you a lot on Mike Videos. It very helpful you have real world equipment pictures here to demonstrate it make understand things easily. Thank you very much
16:25 so basically this is FORCING homeowners to put main panels on the exterior inorder to satisfy the ER disconnect, if not then by adding the external ER disconnect panel, which would make it first means and thus require it to be bonded, it would make your interior main panel a sub panel by default and would require you to separate your neutrals and grounds, am I understanding that correct??
Main breaker disconnect is still allowed? What if the panel board is in the basement as it usually is in my area? Does that mean I would not need a emergency disconnect outside at that point?
I wonder if these whole house surge protectors would have low enough impedance to throw the main breaker. It would limit arc flash in the disconnect. If the surge extended over several second there could be a danger of melting the wires off the suppressor. The type that are built into the main breaker are probably better at protecting due to lead resistance and thermal feedback. So I wonder how high the main disconnect can be mounted off the ground to be accessible to firemen but hard for children to reach ?
Hello Ryan, love your video clips, I have learnt a lot, much appreciated. I do have a request, can you please shed some light on the cold sequence metering with some examples of where, why, and when is applied. Thank you in advance.
Do I understand correctly that the disconnect at the meter will de facto become the service disconnect, requiring all bonding and GEC to be terminated at the meter socket, and also making the panel or panels indoors sub panels? Or is the emergency disconnect not considered the service disconnect? If so, it could dramatically increase the cost of putting in the typical 320A/400A service we see here in PA for McMansions where two 200A MB panels are installed inside.
It depends on if you use a panel outside. I think that will be the most common approach, in which case, yes, your grounding and bonding occur out there. You can use a meter disconnect (which is not a service disconnect), but I think that will be very uncommon.
@@RyanJacksonElectrical This was my question. I didn't see anything about over current protection, only disconnect. Trying to determine if they will allow this as utility side equipment w/o OCP. So while a N-G bond is required you don't continue with an EGC. This would simplify the cost as nobody but the utility and fire department would have access and not really change anything in the design except this extra box. Also if this was only about disconnecting power for the fire department, why not just have some spring loaded device with a pull pin such that the FD just opens some access cover and pulls the pin and spring opens the contactors? As an engineer all I do is >10,000 sq ft homes and 600A service is very typical. Going to look big and obtrusive if I have to put the service outside.
It has pretty much been required in Central FL for the last 35 years. I see an issue with this in high snow load areas though. Play along for a moment. I am a service electrician I show up at Mrs. Jones' house and I need to work in the panel, I want to do the right thing and kill the power but there is no way in hell I am going to trudge through 2-5 feet of snow to get to the main on the side of the house. So now you are asking me to work in a live panel. I see the 2023 code addressing this after someone gets killed. It will be "all panels must have a main CB". The reasoning will be that sometimes electricians are lazy and don't want to walk outside or 200' down a hall the main electrical room. Which was essentially the reasoning behind requiring a disconnect next to a transformer.
@@SillyPutty3700 I live in Utah. We get a bit of snow here. At one of the resorts that I teach for they got 600" this winter. In the valley we often have a few feet in the yard. I've never heard of it being a problem.
Here's the interesting question. Service disconnect required (check), SPD required at entrance(check). Seimens makes a meter main, with a 200A service and 2 spare circuits perfect. part number MM0406L1200RH. However the breaker for the SPD would not be deenergized by this service disconnect only the service entrance to the house that one breaker to the right for the SPD would still be live.
But the manufacturers supply barriers that do not fit US conductors! So already we are non-compliant! I gotten to an argument with an inspector over this regarding an EATON panel for a residential panel change. I cut the rib cone to match the conductor jacket, but the inspector claimed I damaged the supplied barriers from their original form. There was nothing in the paperwork to refute this. Now look, I have worked with European equipment before, I am familiar with such rubber cones over cabling, even being an American electrician. I know that ribbing is meant to be cut to size. Just god damn.
Hey Ryan, would a meter main disconnect panel on the outside of a single family dwelling be considered "equipment requiring servicing" and require a receptacle as per 210.63?
Can not understand why smart meter manufacturers could not install an insulated lever or a device to disconnect the service. They already have a relay or contactor inside of smart meters to be able to remotely disconnect setvice for non payments. NEC should have required covers on main service circuit breakers. Heard that USA did not start designing non contact tetminals on contactors until years after IEC made it a requirement. Like the way Canada guess requires residential panels to have split covers. The smaller cover is in front of where power is terminated to main circuit breaker making it safer for Johnnie homeowner to not have to worry about receiving a shock while in the portion that has all the branch circuit breakers ( as long as they first turn main breaker off ).
Thanks Ryan for another great vid. For you lucky sparkies that only have to use 1 code book. Dukes of hazzard Philadelphia uses the 2017 NEC for 1 & 2 family residental and the rest in the 2014 NEC.
Regarding 230.85, my meter is on my pump house, can the service disconnect be on my pump house next to the meter? Pump house is near the house and is "readily accessible". New construction.
Thanks, does line taps fall under article 230? I just came across one by Tesla energy and the county requires it to be tested by UL and that report sent to my electrical plan checker for approval before I can approve the solar installation.
I have attended training classes for a company named Southern Cross, a subcontractor for Duke Energy that replaces residential and commercial meters with smart meters. I was amazed that they do not train the employees to shut down the load side of the meter base in removing and replacing it, but instead would equip the employee with a regular hard hat mounted face shield, 1000 volt rated rubber gloves over leather gloves, safety glasses and flame retardant clothing. They would work the employees rain or shine and there was a quota that each employee was expected to install, and punch in the meter information on a Trimble. These employees had no training in arc related safety at all. No rain coats either, and when it rained, everything got fogged up and the gloves would get soaked, not to mention your entire body.. Manyof the old houses in North Carolina do not have outside disconnects. I am happy to see that the code has changed, but still nobody is out there inspecting the existing old homes that have outdated services, no ground, old meter bases and frayed sec with exposed concentric. Who regulates this? When a service is hit by a tree during a storm, the duke subcontractor comes by and just nails it back up to the building. It never gets inspected by an ahj or the Fire Marshall to be upgraded after a natural disaster .I am a state licensed electrician and of course lol didn’t last long at Southern Cross, after running in the pouring rain house to house and feeling the tingle from the meter bases just to make quota. Finally one day I tossed the Trimble in the center console of the truck while soaking wet, collected the safety cones from front and back of the truck, tossed the gloves on the dash to dry off, jumped in the truck and slammed the center lid down in the Trimble. That didn’t go over well.. twenty minutes later I had a foreman position with a builder.
Ryan, To be clear, the exterior service disconnect is or is not the "Main" overcurrent protective device? I believe that it is not. It is required ahead of the "Main". I strongly believe that the Main device should be within the structure that it serves. If the circuit breaker or fuse is exterior, then the rating of the device is no longer correct in its environment. This is a real problem. Example: a 20 ampere circuit breaker installed in a freezer at -20F will now be somewhere around 80 amperes(if my memory is correct). The same for the conductors within the freezer(all is good). Now breaker at -20F and conductors at 80F.(now there is a problem). Respectfully, Kevin
Hi Kevin. From my understanding, circuit breakers are calibrated at 40 degress C (104 degrees F). There are tens of thousands of installations that have circuit breakers installed outdoors, in environments from -50 to 125 F but I have never heard of any real incidents occurring. In my area, every house built in the last 50 years has a breaker on the outside. As far as the new requirements in 230.85 go, it does not not have to be a circuit breaker or a fused disconnect outside, it could be just an emergency shutoff, but I don't see why anyone would go to that trouble when there are so many products that are designed to be used as the (outdoor) service disconnect.
@@KevinCoop1 I'm not saying it is a good thing or a bad thing, I am just saying that if it was a real issue there would be some evidence of it, considering the number of breakers that installed outdoors. We've got literally millions of breakers outside but no data showing any problems that I know of.
Ryan Jackson So since NEC requires electrical equipment to be installed per the manufacturers instructions, would it not be a violation to install a circuit breaker as an overcurrent protective device if those instructions state that their breaker is to be operated an minimum of 14 deg F. Eaton does make special breakers that can be used at -40C instead of -20C. So, as you said there are thousands of NEC violations out there. IEEE has an article about fires in cold conditions, but it would not show up when I tried to go there. Maybe there is an issue. Respectfully, Kevin. SqD literature. www.schneider-electric.com/resources/sites/SCHNEIDER_ELECTRIC/content/live/FAQS/278000/FA278588/en_US/Determining%20Current%20Carrying%20Capacity%20in%20Special%20Applications%200100DB0101.pdf?_ga=2.138582643.191383317.1572923737-1762716997.1572923737
The meter stack shown at 20:00 has a weatherproof box mounted to the side with an in use cover. Is that at all legit. Doesnt seem like it would be or would be safe. Where is the power coming from.
Hi I was wondering under 2020 nec how would you do the 400 amp combo panels that have 2 200 amp breakers in the panel that run 2 200 amp interior panels
@@RyanJacksonElectrical what if I had a medal bracket made at a shop that tied the 2 200 amp breaker together like you do with a 100 amp breaker so then when you open the door it would be 1 pull to turn off both. Not sure if it would work just thinking
@@RyanJacksonElectrical ok so I can run 1 off of that combo panel and then run one off a 200 amp disconnect that's mounted beside the combo panel is really the only way to do it
I wish michigan adopted the service disconnect requirement before we installed all these solar panels. (one and two family dwellings) utility workers like it when electricity comes from the power plant. Not single and multi family dwellings. As one who is expected to work with electricity i feel responsible to point this out. Im just a hud daddy.
In michigan, for it to be approved by the utilities, which is a legal requirement for them to operate legally, exterior isolation of the solar inverter is required. Plain and simple, the majority of installs are not legally operating, but none of the cases referred to the state have gone anywhere. I've seen the photos of krone blocks for telecoms melting because an installer(not the homeowner) used them to terminate and aggregate DC at hundreds of volts from the solar panels to the inverters. That installation had no disconnect anywhere, and required a troubleman to cut the line such that the system could be rendered safe and inert. Ruined a brand new pair of insulated cable shears.
I've pull the meter vice schedule a service outage with the utility. I contact the utility after the fact and they come by and put a new seal on the meter. Does the code address this method?
I'm confused, wouldn't the 2020 NEC book be published sometime in 2019 in preparation 2020? The answer is likely right in front of my eyes, flying over my head but rather sound like an idiot online than look like an idiot in front of the inspector.
Not in total agreement with the SPD requirements. If the code is not intended to be used to make electrical systems efficient then why are we going down this path. Surge protection is used to protect electronic equipment within homes it does not protect the building wiring system or people . Again another change to the code geared to make manufactures money and cost homeowners and contractors more money. getting out of hand is what the code making panel is doing.
Hummm everything has a ying and yang , good and bad, 230.85 the disconnect is a must , I would bet there are more home invasions then fires Just wait until the thieves start killing the power outside of a house ( at night) , talk about home invasions best friend .....
This happens in another form in Atlanta. Crooks rush into a home and first cut the wires to the alarm system and rip off the wireless panel unless its wired, in which case they cut the wire from the outside. This outdoor disconnect only works in a low crime/high trust society. Speaking from experience...
About five minutes in you state that there’s a lot of things in the NEC that don’t have to be listed. I would strongly disagree. Essentially by everything being Labeled, listed, or approved, it keeps me from using a vacuum hose as a raceway… As the one meme with the guy sitting at a table drinking coffee: Change my mind. 110.2 Approval. The conductors and equipment required or permitted by this Code shall be acceptable only if approved. Equipment. A general term, including fittings, devices, appliances, luminaires, apparatus, machinery, and the like used as a part of, or in connection with, an electrical installation. Approved. Acceptable to the authority having jurisdiction. (CMP-1) Identified (as applied to equipment). Recognizable as suitable for the specific purpose, function, use, environment, application, and so forth, where described in a particular Code requirement. Labeled. Equipment or materials to which has been attached a label, symbol, or other identifying mark of an organization that is acceptable to the authority having jurisdiction and concerned with product evaluation, that maintains periodic inspection of production of labeled equipment or materials, and by whose labeling the manufacturer indicates compliance with appropriate standards or performance in a specified manner. Informational Note: If a listed product is of such a size, shape, material, or surface texture that it is not possible to apply legibly the complete label to the product, the complete label may appear on the smallest unit container in which the product is packaged.
Yeah, most things in the NEC DO NOT need to be listed. Everything needs to be approved [110.2], and many things need to be listed (luminaires, appliances, and many other), but most things do not (circuit breakers, panelboards, transformers, motors, SEVERAL others). I think you are probably misunderstanding 110.3, which happens a lot. Notice in 90.7 that phrase "specific items." Many products CAN NOT be listed because there is no product standard by which they could be tested and subsequently listed. This is why specific articles require listing for items falling under the article's purview, but, again, most do not.
@@RyanJacksonElectrical you use breakers as an example. If a breaker isn't labeled for use in a particular panel, it can't be used. I have seen this particular item shot down by many inspectors over the years.. I might give a little on "listed"..
@@RyanJacksonElectrical yes & no for 110.0.... (sorry I thought it would tei to the post I replied to) Most of my experience has been industrial, where the AHJ is the company. While many companies have specs that far exceed the NEC, many do not..... Quite often you have to battle with a young, fresh out of school engineer, that has no experience or practical knowledge in the field.....
@@dewaynefanchier589 Again, nothing in the NEC requires everything to be listed. That was your argument, and your argument is wrong. Period. It is wrong.
well in case you weren't watching the video, Ryan is from Salt Lake, Utah so obviously he was talking about the Mexican and Canadian National codes. lol
An ancient sparky says "Ryan = The New Mike Holt"!
Thank you for you content. Your videos are great.
As a retired volunteer firefighter/medic from the People's Republic of NJ 230.85 is GREAT!
No more pulling ENERGIZED meters !! No more 2-hour waits for utility company arrival.
Fantastic!!
Don't know why someone would be crying about a surge protector. They're fairly cheap, and easy to install. I put one in my house six years ago, and not only has it protected all my devices, it kept the aliens from attacking.
230.71 makes perfect sense to me and I have been practicing it for about 10 years. About 10 years ago I upgraded the service at a uniform laundry plant. The engineer in an effort to save money for the client did not call for a main in the MDP but rather 3 breakers feeding 2 other panels and a 480-120/240 delta high leg XFMR to feed legacy loads. Sure as hell literally the week after we were done the owner decided to change their compressors from 240v to new more efficient 480v units and they were 20' from the new MDP. Engineer says no problem lets add 2 more 100a breakers to the MDP we are still under six disconnects. A stand by outage for Florida Power & Light costs about $1200 on off hours. Yea leaving that main out saved them money I am sure.
I hate how stupid people are when it comes to infastructure in a home or business. These are types of actions that will cost you a tremendous amount of money and will only save a few hundred bucks at the front end.
These are the same types of Execs that have no problem blowing money on dumb shit like private jets, limos and expensive dinners on the company dime.
I am a new apprentice with Hunt electric. Thanks for your clarification and experience. It helps me substantially with my schooling as well.
230.85 is for 1st responders. Yep but in central FL we have had this rule for 35 years and 1st responders are still trained in this area not to enter a structure until utility says it is de-energized, which means the jacks at the transformer have been pulled or the lateral cut.
I’ve watched several of your videos and couldn’t shake where I have seen you before. Than it hit me. Mike Holt code training. Nice work. Keep it going into the next generation.
Minute 8.06 - Section 230.62 - I agree this guarding makes sense and improves personnel safety. However, to me it can't be said that it in itself meets NFPA70E, because the insulators/guards only provide shock protection and may reduce the potential for an arc blast, but don't eliminate it. So I think that the person is still required to have the same justifications for live work and to take the same arc flash prevention precautions.
The 2020 NEC (barring something very unexpected) will be available in September of 2019.
230.71 ? Im used to the "no more than 6 disconnects.." So will a condominium with 20 units have 20 disconnects now with 20 different service feeders from the utility company now ? Dosnt seem or sound practical..
1 commercial building with 5 tenats/units/meters will each have there own meter and means of disconnect feeding from the main distribution bus bar or service feeders..
230.67...is there a rule or code that mandates a surge protector or suppressor to be installed in commercial applications
This guarding is getting ridiculous. What’s next are we going to have to guard our screwdriver when we get it out. Isn’t that why the code says qualified personnel, so as you know what you can and cannot touch
@@derekstratford7937 Next code cycle, actually bringing service to a dwelling will be against code. Must use candles and get ice from the ice cellar.
A final clarification, installing this outside disconnect, whether it be a separate or a combination meter/ disconnect, will the inside panel become a sub-panel requiring grounding and bonding at the outside disconnect?
All day Jack, you're spot on. Everything after the new *service* disconnect becomes "sub". The GECs will have to be either replaced or extended, re-routed and landed in the exterior service disconnect, and all the grounded and ungrounded conductors separately terminated in the "new" indoor sub-panel, which includes removing any bonding mechanism. I'll bet a few less experienced electricians and inspectors may not catch that.
@@wellcraft2136 yes sir very well put
The smartest guy in mike's videos
Move to Colorado we’re required to cold sequence the meter on commercial services, AND install meter bypasses on them so would that be considered a service disconnect? We are also required to install meter bypasses on everything else... I believe Texas is required to also.
Thank Ryan. Jersey just adopted the 2020 in October and I’m just starting to have to deal with it. I have a 4 position meter stack to replace and I’m guessing I’ll need a disconnect now. There is no room for this disconnect. I’ll be consulting the AHJ for an opinion on this. Also bidding my first house with the new rules and I’m guessing I’ll be consulting that AHJ also.
Question though, your meter/disconnect at the end of the video had multiple breakers in it. It did not look like the breaker marked service/emg disconnect would shut down everything
Question for you. The 2020 NEC requires a GFCI protected receptacle within 25 ft of a panelboard. I have an apartment complex and each apartment has one indoor panelboard. Where can the branch circuit (serving that receptacle for the panelboard) be fed from? This new section states the following: The required receptacle outlet shall not be connected to the load side of the equipment's branch- circuit disconnecting means. I would appreciate your help. Thanks. Enjoy your videos.
@ 9:10 you stated that if a panel does not have the covers over lugs feeding main breaker havevto call ultility company for a power shutdown. If you are a qualified electrician with proper PPE and insulated tools perfectly safe to work on panel. In my area can take weeks for lazy PECO/Exelon to come out. I was.helping my buddy replace his 2 gang metet socket. Less then 2 hours after he pulled smart meters they came out to investigate. Thanks Ryan for another great vid.
great job Ryan. I watched you a lot on Mike Videos. It very helpful you have real world equipment pictures here to demonstrate it make understand things easily. Thank you very much
16:25 so basically this is FORCING homeowners to put main panels on the exterior inorder to satisfy the ER disconnect, if not then by adding the external ER disconnect panel, which would make it first means and thus require it to be bonded, it would make your interior main panel a sub panel by default and would require you to separate your neutrals and grounds, am I understanding that correct??
Nobody deserves that much adventure in their life lmao.
Main breaker disconnect is still allowed? What if the panel board is in the basement as it usually is in my area? Does that mean I would not need a emergency disconnect outside at that point?
I wonder if these whole house surge protectors would have low enough impedance to throw the main breaker. It would limit arc flash in the disconnect. If the surge extended over several second there could be a danger of melting the wires off the suppressor. The type that are built into the main breaker are probably better at protecting due to lead resistance and thermal feedback. So I wonder how high the main disconnect can be mounted off the ground to be accessible to firemen but hard for children to reach ?
Thanks for the info, you explained everything that I need it to know better in 30 min than the seminar that I took.
Hello Ryan, love your video clips, I have learnt a lot, much appreciated. I do have a request, can you please shed some light on the cold sequence metering with some examples of where, why, and when is applied. Thank you in advance.
Great video, I heard that 230.85 was coming. Will effect all of us in Maryland.
Do I understand correctly that the disconnect at the meter will de facto become the service disconnect, requiring all bonding and GEC to be terminated at the meter socket, and also making the panel or panels indoors sub panels? Or is the emergency disconnect not considered the service disconnect? If so, it could dramatically increase the cost of putting in the typical 320A/400A service we see here in PA for McMansions where two 200A MB panels are installed inside.
It depends on if you use a panel outside. I think that will be the most common approach, in which case, yes, your grounding and bonding occur out there. You can use a meter disconnect (which is not a service disconnect), but I think that will be very uncommon.
@@RyanJacksonElectrical This was my question. I didn't see anything about over current protection, only disconnect. Trying to determine if they will allow this as utility side equipment w/o OCP. So while a N-G bond is required you don't continue with an EGC. This would simplify the cost as nobody but the utility and fire department would have access and not really change anything in the design except this extra box. Also if this was only about disconnecting power for the fire department, why not just have some spring loaded device with a pull pin such that the FD just opens some access cover and pulls the pin and spring opens the contactors? As an engineer all I do is >10,000 sq ft homes and 600A service is very typical. Going to look big and obtrusive if I have to put the service outside.
Thank you! 230.85 is going to be a big deal for us in Washington state. Thanks again
It has pretty much been required in Central FL for the last 35 years. I see an issue with this in high snow load areas though. Play along for a moment. I am a service electrician I show up at Mrs. Jones' house and I need to work in the panel, I want to do the right thing and kill the power but there is no way in hell I am going to trudge through 2-5 feet of snow to get to the main on the side of the house. So now you are asking me to work in a live panel.
I see the 2023 code addressing this after someone gets killed. It will be "all panels must have a main CB". The reasoning will be that sometimes electricians are lazy and don't want to walk outside or 200' down a hall the main electrical room. Which was essentially the reasoning behind requiring a disconnect next to a transformer.
450.14 allows a remote disconnect for a transformer
@@SillyPutty3700 I live in Utah. We get a bit of snow here. At one of the resorts that I teach for they got 600" this winter. In the valley we often have a few feet in the yard. I've never heard of it being a problem.
That's a huge change I'm from Washington state lol
@@SillyPutty3700 And to your point, having all panels with a MB is cost effective, for both the short and long hall. :)
Thank you for posting this most important information. It's appreciated! Good presentation as well!
This video is packed full of useful information and formatted in a way that's easy to understand. Thanks for taking the time to put it together.
Here's the interesting question. Service disconnect required (check), SPD required at entrance(check). Seimens makes a meter main, with a 200A service and 2 spare circuits perfect. part number MM0406L1200RH. However the breaker for the SPD would not be deenergized by this service disconnect only the service entrance to the house that one breaker to the right for the SPD would still be live.
But the manufacturers supply barriers that do not fit US conductors!
So already we are non-compliant!
I gotten to an argument with an inspector over this regarding an EATON panel for a residential panel change.
I cut the rib cone to match the conductor jacket, but the inspector claimed I damaged the supplied barriers from their original form. There was nothing in the paperwork to refute this.
Now look, I have worked with European equipment before, I am familiar with such rubber cones over cabling, even being an American electrician. I know that ribbing is meant to be cut to size.
Just god damn.
In my opinion that is a problem with the inspector, not the product. Some inspectors have a hard time coming to terms with reality.
Hey Ryan, would a meter main disconnect panel on the outside of a single family dwelling be considered "equipment requiring servicing" and require a receptacle as per 210.63?
No, 210.63(B) only applies to indoor equipment, and it doesn't apply to one- or two-family dwellings..
Like the disconnect at the service when need to change out a panel it's easier to work with and it's not energized
Can not understand why smart meter manufacturers could not install an insulated lever or a device to disconnect the service. They already have a relay or contactor inside of smart meters to be able to remotely disconnect setvice for non payments. NEC should have required covers on main service circuit breakers. Heard that USA did not start designing non contact tetminals on contactors until years after IEC made it a requirement. Like the way Canada guess requires residential panels to have split covers. The smaller cover is in front of where power is terminated to main circuit breaker making it safer for Johnnie homeowner to not have to worry about receiving a shock while in the portion that has all the branch circuit breakers ( as long as they first turn main breaker off ).
Thanks Ryan for another great vid. For you lucky sparkies that only have to use 1 code book. Dukes of hazzard Philadelphia uses the 2017 NEC for 1 & 2 family residental and the rest in the 2014 NEC.
We are similar here in Utah. It's VERY frustrating.
Regarding 230.85, my meter is on my pump house, can the service disconnect be on my pump house next to the meter? Pump house is near the house and is "readily accessible". New construction.
Thanks, does line taps fall under article 230? I just came across one by Tesla energy and the county requires it to be tested by UL and that report sent to my electrical plan checker for approval before I can approve the solar installation.
Does it matter whether the outside disconnect is fused or un-fused, and how will the gecs and the inside panel be affected ?
9:15 - I always pull the meter to de-energize when necessary. POCO doesn't care in my area
A typical residential 400/320 amp service uses a dual lug meter pan feeding 2-200 amp panels. Is this still til compliant?
Anything in 230.2 that would prohibit Multiple service's on a single property? Or JUST a single building?
Ryan, Is there anything addressing existing equipment/installations for the emergency disconnect?
Not specifically.
This is very informative. You are the next Mike Holt.
Is it safe for your main disconnect on the outside? That is too easy for criminals.
@@MrDirk3101 Maybe so
Non UL or ETL listed stuff can be rejected by the AHJ...locally
That means all my panels will become subpanel and leads to floating my neutrals?
Technically yes, which means I'm going to have to do some work in my new sub panel.
Not to mention re-arranging, or more likely, replacing GECs.
But service disconnect at the meter only has to be installed if the meter box is replaced, correct?
What a great video, you are so clear and easy to understand.!
Thankyou your a good instructor.
Is that disconnect then considered the first panel and any other panels are sub panels?
I have attended training classes for a company named Southern Cross, a subcontractor for Duke Energy that replaces residential and commercial meters with smart meters. I was amazed that they do not train the employees to shut down the load side of the meter base in removing and replacing it, but instead would equip the employee with a regular hard hat mounted face shield, 1000 volt rated rubber gloves over leather gloves, safety glasses and flame retardant clothing. They would work the employees rain or shine and there was a quota that each employee was expected to install, and punch in the meter information on a Trimble.
These employees had no training in arc related safety at all. No rain coats either, and when it rained, everything got fogged up and the gloves would get soaked, not to mention your entire body..
Manyof the old houses in North Carolina do not have outside disconnects.
I am happy to see that the code has changed, but still nobody is out there inspecting the existing old homes that have outdated services, no ground, old meter bases and frayed sec with exposed concentric. Who regulates this? When a service is hit by a tree during a storm, the duke subcontractor comes by and just nails it back up to the building. It never gets inspected by an ahj or the Fire Marshall to be upgraded after a natural disaster
.I am a state licensed electrician and of course lol didn’t last long at Southern Cross, after running in the pouring rain house to house and feeling the tingle from the meter bases just to make quota.
Finally one day I tossed the Trimble in the center console of the truck while soaking wet, collected the safety cones from front and back of the truck, tossed the gloves on the dash to dry off, jumped in the truck and slammed the center lid down in the Trimble. That didn’t go over well.. twenty minutes later I had a foreman position with a builder.
Does 230.71 apply to transfer switches?
Ryan, To be clear, the exterior service disconnect is or is not the "Main" overcurrent protective device? I believe that it is not. It is required ahead of the "Main". I strongly believe that the Main device should be within the structure that it serves. If the circuit breaker or fuse is exterior, then the rating of the device is no longer correct in its environment. This is a real problem. Example: a 20 ampere circuit breaker installed in a freezer at -20F will now be somewhere around 80 amperes(if my memory is correct). The same for the conductors within the freezer(all is good). Now breaker at -20F and conductors at 80F.(now there is a problem). Respectfully, Kevin
Hi Kevin. From my understanding, circuit breakers are calibrated at 40 degress C (104 degrees F). There are tens of thousands of installations that have circuit breakers installed outdoors, in environments from -50 to 125 F but I have never heard of any real incidents occurring. In my area, every house built in the last 50 years has a breaker on the outside.
As far as the new requirements in 230.85 go, it does not not have to be a circuit breaker or a fused disconnect outside, it could be just an emergency shutoff, but I don't see why anyone would go to that trouble when there are so many products that are designed to be used as the (outdoor) service disconnect.
Ryan Jackson So a breaker at -20 F installed outside protecting conductors in 86F ambient area is a good thing and no concerns?
@@KevinCoop1 I'm not saying it is a good thing or a bad thing, I am just saying that if it was a real issue there would be some evidence of it, considering the number of breakers that installed outdoors. We've got literally millions of breakers outside but no data showing any problems that I know of.
Ryan Jackson So since NEC requires electrical equipment to be installed per the manufacturers instructions, would it not be a violation to install a circuit breaker as an overcurrent protective device if those instructions state that their breaker is to be operated an minimum of 14 deg F. Eaton does make special breakers that can be used at -40C instead of -20C. So, as you said there are thousands of NEC violations out there. IEEE has an article about fires in cold conditions, but it would not show up when I tried to go there. Maybe there is an issue. Respectfully, Kevin. SqD literature. www.schneider-electric.com/resources/sites/SCHNEIDER_ELECTRIC/content/live/FAQS/278000/FA278588/en_US/Determining%20Current%20Carrying%20Capacity%20in%20Special%20Applications%200100DB0101.pdf?_ga=2.138582643.191383317.1572923737-1762716997.1572923737
Ryan Jackson No further comment then?
The whole house surge protection was added in the 2017 code.
No it wasn't.
Ryan ...so lets say i have a 5 dwelling unit can i have one type i surge proctor for all 5 dwellings or do i have to have one per dwelling?
Hi Matthew. You could have one Type one unit.
Hey Bryan, great video good seeing again .
The meter stack shown at 20:00 has a weatherproof box mounted to the side with an in use cover. Is that at all legit. Doesnt seem like it would be or would be safe. Where is the power coming from.
There is a house meter. Five townhouses plus a 2-pole twenty, one leg for site lighting, the other for this receptacle.
@@RyanJacksonElectrical ahh ok. I didn't look close enough. Thanks for the info. And great videos. Recently subscribed from upstate ny.
Great information ! thank you !
Hi I was wondering under 2020 nec how would you do the 400 amp combo panels that have 2 200 amp breakers in the panel that run 2 200 amp interior panels
You wouldn't, unless it has a 400A main.
@@RyanJacksonElectrical what if I had a medal bracket made at a shop that tied the 2 200 amp breaker together like you do with a 100 amp breaker so then when you open the door it would be 1 pull to turn off both. Not sure if it would work just thinking
@@thomasduncan6978 Negative.
@@RyanJacksonElectrical ok so I can run 1 off of that combo panel and then run one off a 200 amp disconnect that's mounted beside the combo panel is really the only way to do it
Great video. Very informative!
Thank you
For the most part, no fire department is teaching to pull meters anymore. That practice has been long gone in most states.
Their is never an early time for code change up dates
Great video. Clear and concise. Subscribed!
Great presentation, thank you.
Great job Ryan! 690 next! :)
i had a house fire started by a coffee pot no damage to house wire can any one tell me cod # the city is using that i need replace house wireing.
Thank you for making thing easy to understand.💡
I wish michigan adopted the service disconnect requirement before we installed all these solar panels. (one and two family dwellings) utility workers like it when electricity comes from the power plant. Not single and multi family dwellings. As one who is expected to work with electricity i feel responsible to point this out. Im just a hud daddy.
In michigan, for it to be approved by the utilities, which is a legal requirement for them to operate legally, exterior isolation of the solar inverter is required. Plain and simple, the majority of installs are not legally operating, but none of the cases referred to the state have gone anywhere. I've seen the photos of krone blocks for telecoms melting because an installer(not the homeowner) used them to terminate and aggregate DC at hundreds of volts from the solar panels to the inverters. That installation had no disconnect anywhere, and required a troubleman to cut the line such that the system could be rendered safe and inert. Ruined a brand new pair of insulated cable shears.
all meter connect to gether HOT side of need to be fix
Very well done God I hate reading the code book and I’ve been in the trade 35)+ years where the f have you been ✌️😀
I agree ... the codebook always gives me brain cramps. Ryan makes it easy to grasp !
Great video!!!!
I've pull the meter vice schedule a service outage with the utility. I contact the utility after the fact and they come by and put a new seal on the meter. Does the code address this method?
The Code doesn't address work practices, but I can tell you that many utilities will have a fit over that. It is also not particularly safe.
Thanks Ryan
love your videos, but you needs to buy a De esser for your audio. Those esses "S's" pierce the ear sometimes
The audio quality is MUCH better now.
Beautiful Ryan,you are best! Thank you for taking your time to explain so clear!god bless.
Thanks keep it up
My rule working on hot boxes...tape closed pinky finger
I'm confused, wouldn't the 2020 NEC book be published sometime in 2019 in preparation 2020? The answer is likely right in front of my eyes, flying over my head but rather sound like an idiot online than look like an idiot in front of the inspector.
Yes, its always published in September of the year before.
@@RyanJacksonElectrical Great! I'm not a audible idiot and soon, not a visual one either.
that gas meter is to close to electrical meter
There is no code requirement for that.
Thanks
Not in total agreement with the SPD requirements. If the code is not intended to be used to make electrical systems efficient then why are we going down this path. Surge protection is used to protect electronic equipment within homes it does not protect the building wiring system or people . Again another change to the code geared to make manufactures money and cost homeowners and contractors more money. getting out of hand is what the code making panel is doing.
good class
subbed!
Hummm everything has a ying and yang , good and bad, 230.85 the disconnect is a must , I would bet there are more home invasions then fires Just wait until the thieves start killing the power outside of a house ( at night) , talk about home invasions best friend .....
This happens in another form in Atlanta. Crooks rush into a home and first cut the wires to the alarm system and rip off the wireless panel unless its wired, in which case they cut the wire from the outside. This outdoor disconnect only works in a low crime/high trust society. Speaking from experience...
You can put a lock on the panel.
About five minutes in you state that there’s a lot of things in the NEC that don’t have to be listed. I would strongly disagree. Essentially by everything being Labeled, listed, or approved, it keeps me from using a vacuum hose as a raceway…
As the one meme with the guy sitting at a table drinking coffee: Change my mind.
110.2 Approval. The conductors and equipment required or
permitted by this Code shall be acceptable only if approved.
Equipment. A general term, including fittings, devices, appliances,
luminaires, apparatus, machinery, and the like used as a
part of, or in connection with, an electrical installation.
Approved. Acceptable to the authority having jurisdiction.
(CMP-1)
Identified (as applied to equipment). Recognizable as suitable
for the specific purpose, function, use, environment, application,
and so forth, where described in a particular Code requirement.
Labeled. Equipment or materials to which has been attached a
label, symbol, or other identifying mark of an organization that
is acceptable to the authority having jurisdiction and concerned
with product evaluation, that maintains periodic inspection of
production of labeled equipment or materials, and by whose
labeling the manufacturer indicates compliance with appropriate
standards or performance in a specified manner.
Informational Note: If a listed product is of such a size, shape,
material, or surface texture that it is not possible to apply legibly
the complete label to the product, the complete label may appear
on the smallest unit container in which the product is packaged.
Yeah, most things in the NEC DO NOT need to be listed. Everything needs to be approved [110.2], and many things need to be listed (luminaires, appliances, and many other), but most things do not (circuit breakers, panelboards, transformers, motors, SEVERAL others). I think you are probably misunderstanding 110.3, which happens a lot. Notice in 90.7 that phrase "specific items." Many products CAN NOT be listed because there is no product standard by which they could be tested and subsequently listed. This is why specific articles require listing for items falling under the article's purview, but, again, most do not.
Section 110.8 is what keeps you from using a vacuum hose as a raceway.
@@RyanJacksonElectrical you use breakers as an example. If a breaker isn't labeled for use in a particular panel, it can't be used. I have seen this particular item shot down by many inspectors over the years..
I might give a little on "listed"..
@@RyanJacksonElectrical yes & no for 110.0.... (sorry I thought it would tei to the post I replied to) Most of my experience has been industrial, where the AHJ is the company. While many companies have specs that far exceed the NEC, many do not.....
Quite often you have to battle with a young, fresh out of school engineer, that has no experience or practical knowledge in the field.....
@@dewaynefanchier589 Again, nothing in the NEC requires everything to be listed. That was your argument, and your argument is wrong. Period. It is wrong.
Subscribed
With these new service disconnects required on homes is gonna allow a lot of illegal work!
How are you going to stop kids "Pranking" your house.
What have you been doing to stop them from pranking you by shutting off your gas?
@@RyanJacksonElectrical Lot harder to turn off gas , think of the other bad things that could happen .
When talking about something “national” it may be an idea to mention which nation we are talking about 😉
well in case you weren't watching the video, Ryan is from Salt Lake, Utah so obviously he was talking about the Mexican and Canadian National codes. lol
🍺😎
Dude if you are an Electrician you work on energized equipment all the time and you have to to do your job.
Thanks