obviously you were the most observant of all of us or your OCD is kicking in and you need to take your medication lol. I didn't notice until you mentioned it.
I'm super greatful for Sean and his efforts to keep the peace and everyone on topic with respect, I'm greatful for the awesome questions, and I think both sides did a great job at answering the questions with their personalities in full force. Thanks for the vid, I appreciate everything you guys do. Y'all are awesome.
Why are people who use proper arguments using facts, logic and reason vilified with ad hominem attacks like being called an attack dog but give no valid argument to dispute what they have said? @@khemingw
On my mission, my companion and I bible bashed a Jehovah Witness elder. After several sessions he said to me you might have won an argument but lost a friend’. 45 years later, I so wished I hadn’t done that. His friendship would have been of greater value than taking away his own faith and possibly leaving him with nothing. The biggest regret of my mission.
I am a Jehovahs witness and I'm more than willing for you to discuss with me, depending on who you spoke to depends on how much they knew how about your religion.. He probably wasn't really fully aware of what you believed... I doubt you could bash me like you did him, as you put it... And I doubt he ended up LDS.... RFM's brother is a Jehovahs witness
Nah! It was over 45 years ago. I don’t need the hassle. You guys just need to learn that the word ‘Elohim’ is plural. If your translation of the Greek scriptures was a little more accurate then maybe you would have a case. Sorry bro, I am off to do something more meaningful with my life like removing fluff from my naval.
I really appreciate that everyone involved in this conversation was able to play a respectable role. This is perhaps the most difficult topic to discuss without emotion taking the wheel and directing it in a negative, nonproductive direction. I think that leaving the expectations that you will somehow manage to persuade others to change what they deeply believe, is important. The best you can hope for is that both parties gain a little more perspective of how and why the other side believes as they do. In hopes that each person possibly gave the other something to think about. More so the hope would be, that you yourself opened your mind to the possibility of now having something to think about.
I don’t think this was a respectful debate at all! Just look at those three men wearing body armor! The personal attacks were awful, especially when ganged up three to one. I don’t know what the hell those guys were thinking, but if I were a neutral party, I’d say the Mormons were the bad guys.
@@AJ-ib4oy I hope you’ll allow me to redact my comment. I guess what I was trying to say was, this was the most respectful I have seen the “Midnight Mormons” be. If you’ve ever seen them before, I think you’ll agree. I do agree with your reply.
Questions for Midnight Mormons: will you do a podcast about the debate? Was there any drama the day of? How was mingling with the crowd and eating after the debate? How was rfm after the debate? How was bill and what was your conversations with him? How did he receive being called out? Is there any plans of going on bills podcast or him going on your podcast? How did you feel the debate went? Cardon looked tense, where cardon is real loose on the podcast. Was there a reason? What did you feel went good and what went bad? Rfm what was a good view point and what went poorly for him? Rfm joke about someone being aroused. Haha you got to love rfm. Another way to break a awkward hug!!!!! Haha Love this debate!!!! Well done brethren!
Cardon wasn’t tense. He was asked a deeply spiritual question about faith and gave his testimony while reliving a moment he held his baby girl in his arms not knowing which breath would be her last. I won’t judge you for being snippy but if you have never been there, you haven’t been there.
@@kingster99me it was a different cardon I never saw before. His passion came out and I felt it. He did an amazing job. Kwaku, Brad, rfm, and the moderator also did an amazing job.
My summation of the MM positions on the whole - If we abandon the notion of the absolute truth of our faith, having nothing to replace it with is too frightening to contemplate
Which for the majority, could not be further from the truth. Just like most mormons are good people. Leaving mormonism, for most people, turns out perfectly fine
Yeah... that's the fear that's fostered in the church causing members to be terrified of raising their children outside of it. I also know multiple people who are still scared to leave or have their records removed in case it's all real and they can't get into celestial glory without their valid saving ordinances... the conditioning is heavy. If God doesn't give us the spirit of fear, why are so many afraid to leave? People say they could leave at any time, but see what happens when you stop paying your tithing... you lose your family for eternity unless you get back on track and pay for that premium, exclusive package.
@@CrustyRusty366that’s a good comment. LDS theology is insane but I know a ton of Mormons and they are legit great hearted people. Most of them anyway.
I was there live in person! It was fun. I think it's pretty cool for everyone to make this happen. The best part was briefly meeting them all afterwards.
Your opinion, please. The stream mood was MM overall tone = love; Corbin overall tone = hate. And what was audience mood? Better for MM or better for Corbin? Thanks.
@@BlueHalfVision the audience was no less than 90% with the post Mormon view. You can probably infer the audience mood from that. I believe that people perceive how it went based on what side they were on. Even though I'm a former member, I don't really care about points from either side. I like to see good dialogue from both sides. There were good moments where I think I was able to understand where the mm are coming from a little more and there were some tense, not so good moments. Being in the room really amplified the mood.
First I want to say thank you so much to midnight Mormons for being part of this. I watch both your channel and Mormonism live most weeks. I am on the other side of the fence on many issues. But I still remember clearly what is was like to be all in. I really want to be part of a new culture in the church. I spiritually am in a different place, but I am still a member and plan to continue to be. And I have so much respect for these guys for In their own way moving all of us forward. there were things in the debate on both sides that could have been better, but there were so many more awesome moments. I loved the passion from midnight Mormons, and I loved the logic and humor from RFM. I really hope we can all get to a place where both sides are seen as legitimate, and we can love each other without needing to be right. The non-believing side needs to do way better at being respectful. Faith is sacred no matter what it is, and we need to have decency. So from one non believer, I say that I want a world in which you are completely able to not feel pressured or threatened by those on the outside. The vandalism and threats Cardon witnessed in California and the arson of meeting houses is inexcusable. We have to own that to some degree, in that we need to condemn it. At the same time I get where RFM was coming from with feeling like he didn’t need to provide another spiritual framework for those who experience change in their faith. What would that look like exactly? I don’t think secularism is the threat it was presented to be, because secularism isn’t necessarily a culture, -if it is hostile secularism, in that people are actively trying to destroy religion, I agree that is a force that we should oppose. But being able to criticize respectfully is crucial to freedom of thought, and is not the same as trying to tear down religion. We can criticize Islamic terrorism and be completely justified in doing so, and at the same time recognize the beauty that is also in Islam, and most Muslims are peaceful. I get that atheism is an absence of belief, but I think most people are still spiritual, in the sense that they believe there is meaning in life. Like RFM expressed, spirituality can simply be an unknown. There is a lot of beauty in the uncertainty, because we get to see life as a journey. I think the meaning in life is self evident, in the beauty of moments and relationships we can experience. In that sense there is real spiritual value to life regardless of a metaphysical backdrop. I look forward to the day when we can all focus on the common ground, and everyone feels like they have a place. It’s not easy being the only non-believing member of my family, but I want to help create a culture where I feel welcome in the church, and what you all have been doing In my view is moving us all in the right direction, so once again I sincerely thank you and look forward to more content, and when the hostile idiot antis are making life difficult, know that there are so many people that support you, and that your making the world a better place.
The culture REALLY has changed from RFM’s formative years. The restoration is ongoing and the church gets purer and outer… hope that makes sense. I don’t mean that in a braggy way… just thought there has been a huge shift toward love, acceptance, tolerance. People are done with the toxic perfectionism stuff. We are evolving and it is amazing to watch and be a part of.
@@JennieFur47 Yeah they don't say restored anymore. They say the restoration is a process. That's not what I was taught growing up, I'm 35. But it's essential as the church has a ton of changing to do.
@ Jen F, Christianity has been an open book since day 1, why waste your time with a $120,000,000,000 corporation that’s only now discovering Jesus and the New Testament?
I’m returning to the church after being away for 39 years and have struggled with much in my life. I often wonder about, if I had remained active, would I have had a more joyful life. The answer is yes. What stands out most to me about this debate is that those that seek to destroy the church and its members take no responsibility or do they offer a better alternative. The church is not perfect because of man’s imperfections but because of this it has the ability to become more like what are Heavenly Father wants us to be. Watching this debate underscores that there is no such room for growth on the other side.
Wishing you the very best. Leaving the exmo community can be very traumatic. If you weren’t part of it good for you. I’m battling with a belief in god at all so I see the side of RFM but don’t agree with his cynicism and anger and desire to only bring down people of faith. This is my first time hearing about and of RFM and because of his sourness and rancor and conniving spirit I won’t ever listen to more from him. Please pray for me, I don’t want to become what I saw on display from RFM and what I see from most exmo community cult members.
@@dcarts5616 Leaving the MORMON community can be very traumatic. Also, I don't see how you can call out RFM being upset when Kwaiko (or however you spell his name) was using ad hominem attacks. Why is Kwaiko's cynicism valid and RFM's isn't?
@@halcyon2017 a simple Google search can teach you how to spell Kwaku El, nice dismissal of him though, really nice lol. The fighting is silly. Nothing that RFM, JD, JH, MS or any of the faith deconstructionist grifters do is new, just differs tactics and periods of success. I see absolutely nothing out of the ordinary in those who leave any types of faith, any type of community, or groups where there are standards of ANY sort. I just watched a video about leaving college and the abuses and stresses and demands and trauma suffered while at the university level institution. It was interesting to see the similarities and the pettiness.
@@dcarts5616 And look at how you dismiss the deconstruction community. Do you look at the Mormon community with the same lenses? Or is that only reserved for people who don't think the way you do? Do people not need support after leaving abusive relationships?
Kwaku seems really angry and bitter. He spent most of his time making accusations and demeaning others, then threw in a bunch of worse case scenario threats of what would happen if people don't follow him. I'm not mormon or exmormon so I'm not sure if this is a typical mormon, but he seemed a lot like the evangelicals of the south that promote hatred and then claim to believe in Christ. I realize he is young so perhaps experience will lend its hand over the years.
@@mikechristensen1604 He acts in a way to get reactions out of others and then accuses them of misbehaving. For example when he said "your side." and then got upset RFM interrupted him. This is a tactic I see used by apologists of all beliefs. When you make a personal attack people will naturally respond. It was a calculated attempt to make the other side appear bad and that they are not following the rules. In my opinion it is a tactic of a coward who has little to no faith in their own argument.
Kwaku's responses were absurdly hollow. He has got to be the most vacuous person I have ever seen. Typical pretentious undergrad. He thinks if he's assertive and pretends he is knowledgeable, he wins the argument, when anyone with an ounce of critical thinking ability can see right through him. For example, he claimed that bookstores are full of books on folk magic and mystics. First, maybe in Provo, Utah but I've never seen it. Second, even if true, it doesn't make it 'a divine part of everyone,' or whatever he said. Guess what is wide spread: PORN! Is that a divine part of everyone too!? Kwaku's dumbassery knows no bounds. Follow Deepak Chopra if you must, Kwaku, but please spare the rest of us. Oh, and before anyone starts, THIS IS NOT "PRESENTISM". What Joseph Smith was doing was illegal in his time, and condemned. The only practitioners were superstitious bumpkins like the Smith family. That's why Joseph Smith was in court! The fact there are so many superstitious bumpkins still falling for such a blatant con today is a condemnation of our education system.
I was going to say the same thing but exactly the opposite. Trying to turn a buddy on his friends by complimenting him and then revoking the complement is dirty. It is a bait of false unity with himself to ultimately leave Brad unified with no one. The more I think about it the sicker I get.
@@thomasveech7456 no his friends couldn’t help themselves and they attacked Corbin in such disturbing ways that Brad was as respectable as Corbin who just shared truths not attacks with the others.
Thought it was hilarious when Kwaku forced his own side to disagree with him. Like, RFM is a bad guy for being a defense attorney who defends people's rights to a fair trial and due process... 2:07:53 LOL...
to: @Jeremy Robinson ... even Perry Mason was discriminating when he chose clients. nothing wrong with using your valuable time to help the people who deserve it the most. ... peace
Kwaku is literally the kind of person who would burn you at the stake for believing in science if he had grown up in the 1400's. It's honestly terrifying to see
@@harryabelpotter9630 In case you aren't aware, sometimes lawyers are forced to defend certain clients as public defenders. Every American has the right to a fair trial, no matter how obviously guilty they are.
Brad at approx. 2:18:19 ALL revelations to the prophets and apostles have to be agreed on by all of the members of the top 15. So LDS doctrine is voted on and no revelation can be announced unless all agree. What is the point of having a prophet who can receive revelation about his church if he then has to go and meet with the others and they have to agree that it is a revelation. If you are in doubt about this go back and review the conference talk(s) where they say that it can take years for a revelation to be announced to the church. NOT revelation in my view and one of the many factors that caused me to become a non-believer in the restored gospel of the LDS church.
I'm post faith crisis, active, hold a calling, but I no longer believe any of the truth claims that make the church "the one and only true" church. I make room for the church to be inspired tho. With that context, this debate pulled me in many directions. I would say it was a draw. Most of the debate did not address the biggest problems- Like epistemology, does being "good" matter more than truth, and the ethics of speaking for God. When it started to go that direction, RFM steered it back to the surface level issues and it deteriorated into ad hominem and "our side vs your side". I like RFM but I don't think he should have been the one to represent exmos. I find RFM's humor misplaced in many cases and in this debate it was no exception. It really detracted from the debate. With the MM- for the love of all that is good, get Kwaku off the stage. His rant on the history of seer stones was the most tangental non-starter I've ever heard around that subject.
I'm not and I've never been a Mormon, but I also keep myself open to accept that the Mormon Church might be inspired at some level. The problem is that the Church itself will never take this position and they seem to hold to the idea that their history, what the BoM is, and how it came to be, is 100% true, which has come to bite them in the past when people have found out that they were lying or hiding things.
As popular as that position might be, there really is no middle ground. It's either true, or it's filled with a multitude of conspirators. Personally, I find it difficult to believe that the entire Smith family was in on it, along with the 3 and 8 witnesses. I can't even get my brothers together for Thanksgiving, let alone for a religious movement/lifestyle.
(protestant Christian here) I'd suggest that there is a truth that the LDS church falsely built upon. Therefore, there are some truths about the LDS church - however those are the truths that historic Christianity stands firmly upon. There is only one "true church" out there, and it's the universal body of believers who believe and have faith in Jesus Christ (LDS Jesus is different than the Jesus of the Bible)
Well done. Thought this went well. Cardon normally acts as discussion facilitator as the host of the show and it was really cool to see him use personal experiences to tie to his defense arguments. I thought his responses were all well said. Brad kept RFM's logical flaws honest and wouldn't let him get away with poor arguments. It's also clear the exmos want to pull Brad away from the other two because they see Brad as they saw fair: a person who will always turn the other cheek to the exmo punches. But now that the three of you are punching back they are calling foul and will attempt to divide you. Don't let them. Kwaku did an awesome job connecting the dots between religion and spirituality. RFM loves the idea of younger people losing their faith in droves, but the younger generation is actually very spiritual and are searching for authenticity. Loved that. Kudos to the four of you for having this discussion. Hope to see more of these.
The Midnight Mormons used some surprisingly heterodox arguments which was interesting. Radio Free Mormon was also more compassionate than many ex-Mormons I've run into. Overall, I think this was a refreshing and helpful discussion.
People who don’t know the backstory to this “debate” don’t realize that RFM never claimed to represent the ExMo’s. This was really a personal throw down between the two podcasts as personalities.
Ex-mo here. I appreciated this debate, and i appreciated listening to the midnight Mormons side of things, and understanding a little better where you're coming from. I thought Brad was the most likable person in the stage, and i want to be friends with him. I hope everybody watching this could understand the other side a little better and at the end of the day, be kind and love each other
Well thought out response. How long were you in the Church and how long have you been out of the church. Do you have another faith or agnostic now, or atheist? Just curious about your journey, since the comment is very thoughtful. I would have a ton more questions for you, so maybe don't awnser since I'll just ask more :)
@@clearstonewindows i truly love talking about my faith journey from the stance of being better understood and not from the stance of converting anyone. I was born in the church, and only really started questioning about 2 years ago. I'm agnostic now. I'd welcome any other questions you have!
@@clearstonewindows being agnostic simply means you are willing to admit that you don't know what happens after death. There could be a creator or creators, or there could not. And coming to terms with that reality. For some people, they need a religion to deal with their mortality. And for others, coming to terms with not knowing can be just as freeing. Religions have always existed of all kinds, most of which have people who deeply believe in them because of elevation emotion. Which is totally fine. Each individuals journey is different. My only beef with Mormonism and many other religions is the claim to be the one. In my opinion, if there is a creator, there is insurmountable evidence indicating he doesn't actually care what religious beliefs humans hold.
@@CrustyRusty366 Do you think you have free will? Also about the claim of the church of Jesus Christ of latter-day saints... hypothetically speaking do let's say God did come down and talk to Joseph Smith, would you have a problem with him making that claim if it actually did happen?
I loved this guys! I cheered for both sides at different point in time. when kwaku said at the end really touched me when he said let the bitterness go. Last year I was struggling with my faith. For about a month I took my anger out on Exmo Reddit. I was really sad and then having hate on Reddit, really put me in a dark place. After a month, it struck me that I wasn’t any better. I slowly accepted the church for the good it does. The bitterness was let go and I enjoy church and life more. I still have questions but I strive for Christ like attributes instead of hate.
Cardon, I’ve been playing your comments about “I will be my brothers keeper” on repeat. That was one of the best snippets of faithful debate on any video I’ve ever seen.
I thought that part of the debate was the most ridiculously hypocritical part of it! You have these idiots upset that someone is being truthful about their religion and this may cause distress. That the person telling them the truth should somehow be able to offer them something else and let them down easy. I call them idiots because any rational person would see that the problem was the church lying to them in the first place! It's the Mormon church that has been immoral, not RFM!
Few of questions for the MM trio. 1. Is your concern for your safety so great that you always go around in armored vests? And if not why? 2. Does Kuaku think people convicted of crimes or that are petitioning the court are entitled to competent defense council? 3. Has Kwaku every expressed an issue with Mormon church friendly law firms defending accused sexual abusers? 4. Should Mormon church leaders be called out when they blatantly lie or as Brad once called it, "represented things as they saw it from their perspective". 5. Is belief in any religion, even though it may be false, better than no religious belief at all.
1. I believe it was joke because they are walking into a war zone during the debate. 2. I would assume so. Because you are innocent until found guilty. 3. If there wasn't ppl trying to get a free dollar from the church and ppl trying to destroy the church we wouldn't be talking about it also the church or doctrine is perfect but the people in it not and those that become abuser will be judged by God and very sad for them in the next life. Why is the church being held responsible for peoples dumb choices 4. I don't think leaders blatantly lie. Can't believe what some people say. 5. I would say yes a religion is better than no religion but on the same breath it could be toxic depending what that religion teaches. Hope I don't step on toes answer these
A question for those that sided with Midnight Mormons in this debate; What's more important to you? A: Believing a historical claim is true because the claim is the best reconstruction of what most likely happened in the past, based on the available empirical evidence. B: believing a historical claim is true because that belief provides value in your daily life, regardless of what the empirical evidence indicates.
I think A matters. But if I'm being honest, I want the Church to be True. No other faith, including standard Christianity, has such a wonderful narrative about life and its purpose. I will also say that while I wish I was more spiritual, the thing that attracts me the most is Logos. Logic and Reason bring me to God. There is no tenable position outside of faith.
@@nwkitesurfer Thanks for the response! Hypothetically, you were to become convinced that the empirical evidence pointed to the BoM claims being untrue, would the narrative of the church be sufficient to sustain your belief? Faith can be a tricky word. Can you elaborate what you mean by 'faith' in that last sentence?
@@kenhilker2507 I wrote a considerable answer, then lost it. So I'm going to shorten this a bit. The answer is Yes, the narrative of the Church would sustain me. I find empiricism, materialism, and atheism self-refuting. I question the self-awareness of any who embark on these paths of fast-food religion. To reference Dune, in this life, we all have the gom jabber at our necks, and we are proving by our choices of thought and deed whether or not we are animals or children of God. Guess who's holding the gom jabber? We are! We are holding it to our own necks. Listen to how RFM describes the relationship of father, mother, and child, and you tell me if he's about to prick his neck. Simply put, we all get to decide our faith (or lack thereof), and even if a bunch of scammers ran this Church, everything I have learned has been good. I will only ever believe in a religion that tells me to "prove all things and hold fast to that which is good" and where the fundamental tenant of our faith is to embrace ALL truth, "come whence it may." (JS)
@@nwkitesurfer Can you help me understand what appears to be a contradiction? You said you'll only follow a religion which says to "prove all things", but you also said yes, you'd stay in a religion even if its historical claims were to be proven false. How do you reconcile those two statements?
That ending filled me with so much love. I couldn't help but get emotional. Gave my dad a really long hug afterwards, and it's inspired me to be more Christ like. I'm sure we all will be wrong in certain areas when we die and meet Christ, but I believe that when we are most Christ like at the end of the video, we will know his Gospel better, and any LGBTQ+ issues that might not be entirely understood yet and though we as people make alot of assumptions based off of very little knowledge at times, those issues will be made okay as we live like Jesus in the end of this video. Every answer will be solved eventually especially revelation whyse the more we really and earnestly act like Jesus would act. That is the answer to most problems. I've seen angels and I've felt Christ's physical hands in the church of Jesus Christ, I've heard heavenly father's voice and I've experienced so many blessings in his church, but that was when I was really living a Christ centered life and only then. Theirs many controversial things, but I do know that we do live after this life, I know because of my grandparents who died, and because Jesus Christ taught me that. The most important thing to Christ is that we love like Jesus loved and that will direct all doctrine to it's rightful place that we may have misunderstood and other churches may have understood or misunderstood. We all have growing to do, but the most important thing to Christ is that we are loving each other ❤️ and he's willing to help us through the eternitys, through our understanding and all if we will let him. Jesus works with other churches as well, and even angels who have authority through someone who has a body who might not have authority can help do ordinances in other churches, Jesus Christ answers their prayers to. But I do have a strong belief in the foundation and preisthood that the church of Jesus Christ has authority of for sure, for sure, and like Joseph Smith said before he died, the church of Jesus Christ is part of the body of Christ with all of the other churches in Jesus Christs Name. I love church history, and I especially love the part before Joseph Smith died where he said those things, and the Christ like love Joseph Smith often showed. I understand the perspective of the critic, and I understand the perspective of the believer. But from my experience Joseph Smith wasnt perfect but he was really striving to be like Jesus Christ and thats what I am for to, Joseph Smith though he can easily be perceived as many things cause of the complications of history and records helped point me to Jesus Christ and taught me many precious truths Jesus Christ and the holy ghost In personage have taught me and many others. I say all of these things in the sacred name of Jesus Christ Amen.
Kwaku was the most disrespectful and hypocritical on this debate. He resorted to attacking RFM’s character to try to prove his point and even tried to bring out “dirt” from RFM’s job as a lawyer… while talking about one’s “eternal worth”. Such a low blow. It just shows how immature he is and how unprepared he was for this debate, the most “unlike Christ” behavior I’ve seen coming from a member of the church. RFM was witty & rocked the show!
Yeah, I know this is all personal but I agree. He is intolerable to watch. I’m still active and I guess going through a “faith crisis” and he should really not be in this arena. His points, imo, are juvenile. The history is what it is. If you want to believe then believe. If you want to redefine what “know” is then you can argue any point and make it nuanced. But there’s a reason FAIR took their videos down…they were ad hominem and frankly ridiculously embarrassing.
Agreed. This is what happens when someone believes he is untouchable, the unregenerate behavior shows. He shows no fruit of the Spirit but is a mean and vindictive person, hardly a good representative of so many incredibly kind Mormons I've met whose kindness made me take a 2nd look at the Book of Mormon. I can't believe they give Kwaku a platform to spew his sophomoric vitriol. As an outsider I can tell you that someone needs to muzzle him from representing LDS 3.0 doctrine (coined here, now) or it will never get off the ground. Also the "I was never taught that" doesn't fly for anyone who has watched even and only the last 6 general conferences like me and have seen these ideas taught.
Kwaku attacking the American system of jurisprudence was the low point of the debate. Well, that and insinuating that RFM had something to do with burning LDS chapels. Very sleazy approach to debating.
to: @Glaucia Amaral ... RFM, aka Corbin T Volluz, aka CTV ..... CTV spoke falsehood when he claimed that, "for the last century until the essays" the Church hid the story of the rock in the hat until "the October (2015) Ensign magazine." RFM is older but not wiser and no closer to the truth and what he said is pure falsehood.
I'm a post mormon... I just wanted to thank you three for your answers to the questions, sharing your stories, and offering your heartfelt comments in the debate.
59:47 Witbeck: "I do find it interesting... you said so little about polygamy, I feel like there's a ton to say" RFM: "None of it's any good" - audience laughs Kwaku: "Hey, uh, I'm a product of polygamy. I think I'm pretty good" - audience groans
Kwaku is so utterly self-absorbed that he thinks being a product of polygamy is sufficient evidence of its goodness. Women are not even remotely satisfied with that ridiculous answer to a very harmful practice.
@@bradwitbeck Questions maybe you could address on the show. Do you believe other people can have spiritual or emotional experiences outside mormonism. I will guess your answer is yes. Do you believe these experiences always have to do with the BOM, Jesus, or anything Christianity related? I will guess your answer is no. Could believers in Islam have spiritual experiences related to Allah? Could Egyptians, Greeks, and Romans have spiritual or emotional experiences relating to their beliefs in Osiris, Zeus, or Jupiter? I don't know what your answer will be. The point that i am trying to make is that the spirit most likely does not have anything to do with truth and certainly does not testify of one uniform truth in the world. Maybe it could be and guide to each individual personally? But that would imply that all the other religions and Gods are also true and real. The spirit, or emotional moments when we watch movies, or hear sad or heroic stories, should just be appreciated for what it is. In my opinion, it is silly to attach uniform world and universal truth to emotional experiences. And people who say they don't know what is going to happen after death, are just being more honest than you. Don't pretend to know because you an emotional experience. Sure, accept it as your personal truth, but limit it to that.
I just listened to this whole debate, if you want to call it that, on a drive up to coast. I was shocked ho how much church history RFM is mixed up with. He wouldn't last too long with a real LDS church historian. For example he brings up the "seer stone" problem. And that the church never mentions the "seer stone". Doctrines of Salvation Volume 3 Page 225 Jospeh Field Smith discusses the seer stone and that Joseph Smith used this to continue to translate the BOM after the 116 pages went missing and the Urim and Thumin were returned to Moroni. That's just one thing that stood out. The is no official story of JFS discovering the alternative first vision accounts then "Hidding" them. It's an assumption at best. And so on and so on. Towards the end his whole rant about "how to stay mormon" Is just so terrible condescending and aroagant. As if ALL LDS who study the gospel or who ever had a faith crisis leave the church. It's just unreal. "And if they are not interested in Mormonism they move onto the next target" Isn't that all of life works? If a person isn't interested in something you don't keep shoving it down their throats? What's funny is the applause that that sound bite got RFM. What strikes me the most, again, is the arrogance of this man. I find the LDS Temple one of my most precious places on earth to visit and yet he admitted he could never feel to purpose of the temple. This tells me, his demons began early on. He thinks the LDS church is false and admits he's completely agnostic. His issue is not with The Book of Mormon, it's with God. It was Christ who first declared in John Ch 10, one shperherd one fold NOT Jospeh Smith in 1820. RFM has one goal and one goal only which is to tear down. He can't observe or admit that there have been hundreds of thousands of fartiful LDS members (if not millions) who have lived on this planet, who are much more learned and smarter than him that know the LDS church is the one true restored gospel on this earth today. So how dare he RANT on "how to stay mormon" when his whole rant is terribly flawed.
You're right. It was frustrating. I would have prefer more concise questions with shorter responses. Long questions with buffet answers were not effective.
Watched the whole debate. First of all: stellar moderator. Very fair and situated between both positions. I've read the comments and am appalled at how many people don't know what ad hominem is. Kwaku was simply holding RFM to his own standard. This is a tactic that I call "holding up a mirror". When RFM would express phony umbrage, Kwaku would say "Oh really? That's your standard is it? What about when you said/did. . ." and proceeded to expose the hypocrisy. This is one thing I loved about pres Trump. He'd mirror the very behavior used against him, and his attackers would gasp and harrumph upon receiving the very treatment they dish out. People who are accustomed to attacking without receiving reprisals tend to get uppity when their victims throw it right back at them. Sadly, they're usually blind to the irony.
You sound jealous Dan. Also, you accidentally copied and pasted the same criticism you’ve given every person that ever disagreed with you… these computer keyboards are a lot tougher than typewriters aren’t they?
@@danvogel6802 I hope you can at least agree we answered the questions asked? I don’t think fallacious appeals to emotion, moralizing, or sermonizing properly characterizes our responses. We were asked for our personal thoughts and reasons multiple times, not for documents and evidence. If we had been, perhaps the debate would have been more to your liking. I actually tried to address this by asking to adjust the structure to be for or against certain resolutions so that we could get more deeply into specific topics, but RFM said I was just trying to monkey with things. In the end, I’m grateful for the conversation Shawn started here. I think it’s actually really productive. It certainly wasn’t a traditional debate, so I understand the disappointment if that’s what you were looking for coming into this, but I think it was refreshing. Perhaps another time we can have a more traditional debate where we aren’t asked for our personal thoughts and feeling about things, and then we can have a more direct conversation about truth claims and specific points of history.
Did you expect this to be of any real substance, Dan? This was a foolish idea from the start. The second these attention whores showed up in vests, I knew this was going to be a farce, and it was.
This was unreal. YOU survived prop 8? Prop 8 was a disgusting, propaganda filled movement that was trying to legally disenfranchise gay people whether they be in the church or not. If you supported it, you are a bigot. People left bad yelp reviews? That’s being “brutalized”? LOOK AT WHAT YOUR OWN FUCKING CHURCH IS DOING. I hope any business where the leaders supported prop 8 went under. I don’t want bigots like that, willing to go the state and federal level to disenfranchise their existence, in my community, period.
Gays have ALL of the cultural (and now governmental) support. Standing up against gay marriage was brave then and it's even more brave now. Being gay isn't brave. It's celebrated.
Yeah, he said that he had to help clean up after the Prop 8 protests, while not saying that the church's position on that issue contributed to the reasons for the protests in the first place. And the church's stance on the issue lost the debate.
Yeah… I was stunned he said that out loud. Anti-Mormons do not refute scripture but fulfill it, and he literally fulfilled the exact phraseology of CAIN when he slew Anel.
Just because RFM doesn’t give them the answer doesn’t mean he doesn’t care. I don’t think he articulated it as well as he could have but I think the point of coming out of Mormonism is to not have some other person tell you the path to take but that you get to figure out and decide what path to take. When you’ve been told your whole life that this “one prophet of god” has all the answers only to find out they don’t, it makes sense then to follow your own path and recognize there really are no prophets but each person needs to do their own journey. RFM. Is setting out the facts as he sees them and people can decide if they agree or disagree. But I think we need to get away from this idea that there is “only one” right way for people to live. It’s a difficult exercise when you’re taught in Mormonism that’s how life is.
Cardon, you were awesome. Srsly. All 3 of you were excellent. Half way thru you saw the crazy come thru RFM. Underneath, he's just fighting against a romanticized Hollywoodian church that doesn't exist. You three did great. I was nervous but you did great. Hostile opponent, hostile moderator, hostile crowd, and you nailed it. Don't you dare reign Kwaku in. He needs to be the guns. Loved it. You entered the lions den and slew the lion.
@@CJ-oc2ff I don't think anyone said that the Prophet has all the answers including the prophets. He is guided by God but he's still just a normal person. Anyone that believes otherwise is lying to themself.
@@danascully7358 So was the prophet guided by God when they put forth the policy of exclusion and then again by rescinding that policy only 3 years later after they lost thousands of members by resignation and several other of our LGBT brothers and sisters by suicide? The question is really what answers does the prophet today have? Other than minor policy changes and the huge policy of exclusion debacle there hasn't been a single new revelation in the church in over 100 years. But again they act like they do know all the answers. I was taught in primary, "Follow the prophet, follow the prophet, he knows the way!"
One of the biggest problems is that the immaturity of certain members and non members is usually the loudest and gets the most attention the fastest and this immaturity says " why aren't things going the way I want them to and why did this happen this way!?" RFM is giving that immaturity a voice and saying that that immaturity is actually right when clearly it isn't.
“Mormonism is truth; and every man who embraces it feels himself at liberty to embrace every truth…. The first and fundamental principle of our holy religion is, that we believe that we have a right to embrace all, and every item of truth, without limitation or without being circumscribed.” - Joseph Smith.
Every time I see Kwaku speak I just can’t believe how vile he is. The ad hominem, the holier than thou judgement, the baseless accusations and rumors, the gaslighting…he’s beyond the pale. It’s embarrassing and venomous. I don’t even want Kwaku to “wake up” and leave the church. I just hope he can take a step back and see everyone’s common humanity and act accordingly.
His personality is different... probably from his polygamy family 😂🫣 after watching him on a few episodes he is growing on me and seems like a good dude
You are all just speaking fancy English😅. The Book of Mormon is true, and if ultimately anyone was deceived, at least they've been taught that they can only be saved by Christ's atonement.
This debate was actually quite entertaining and interesting. Overall, both sides did great job representing themselves. Props to all 4 and the moderator. My concerns for the MMs: Being skeptical of extraordinary claims is not cynicism. Cynicism is toxic, agreed. Skepticism is foundational to agency, knowledge and protection against believing in false things (ie magic.) Anyone who suggests you doubt your conscience and reason (aka your doubts) - beware. Agnostics and atheists are not more sad or immoral. Saying so is a fragile, false fear tactic. Ask the google and see what the data has to say on the topic. My agnostic life as a devoted husband and father and friend also says otherwise. For RFM: When people are faced with disturbing truths about their belief system and leave it, they often do need to reconstruct a healthy, new world view. Though it isn’t RFM’s responsibility to provide this, acknowledging the importance and highlighting some resources would have been helpful. Though he did make me laugh out loud many times, the ‘don’t drop the soap’ joke was poor taste and should be apologized for, IMO.
I like the comment that we should know European history. I know European history very well, including the part of European history where people were killed by the christian church if they didn’t leave their cultural/native religion behind and convert to christianity.
@@Mike_Rottchburns You're right, it doesn't make sense. That's why a lot of people are questioning the church, because there is so much stuff even beyond the seer stone issue that absolutely doesn't make sense.
I went to 4 years of seminary and never once was a seer stone mentioned. The church hid it until it couldn’t hide the truth any longer, because a seer stone in a hat is absurd and embarrassing.
Ok I’m going to be honest. I don’t really understand why the seer stone is such a big problem for some people. Many people say that the church taught them that Joseph Smith used the Urim and Thummim and then they found out later in their life that it was a seer stone. Isn’t that basically saying, “I thought Joseph Smith translated the plates with those magic rocks not a different magic rock, my testimony is destroyed.” I mean the history and doctrine of Mormonism is angels, visitations from God, ancient peoples, polygamy, Book of Mormon, visitations from god, kolob, ancient prophets, second coming of Christ, speaking in tongues, baptisms for the dead, gold plates from an extinct people, 14 year prophet guy, Adam and Eve, God is a man, Garden of Eden in Missouri, Noah and the Ark, Ark of the Covenant, Temples, Prophets in our day speaking for God, 3 degrees of heaven, a Holy Ghost that talks to people, a man that came back from the dead(Jesus Christ) People becoming Gods, People on different planets, ancient mesoamerican Christian Indians, A man that died for your sins, and you’re telling me that all that stuff you knew was fine until you found out that J.S. used a different magic rock than the one you thought he used? It’s not like the church has been teaching pure logical science the whole time and then suddenly said one weird thing. It seems like a small misunderstood detail rather than some big thing.
I'll go from personal experience in regards to this. At 14, I read D&C 77 (Q&A with the Lord about things in Revelation) and a thought came to mind "What if I could do this?" Not revelation for the whole Church or anything, but personal revelation using the Q & A format. I put pen-to-paper and wrote out a deep, genuine question that I had for him. I then cleared my mind and started writing the response (a free-writing technique). It was a little crude in response, my terminology and phrasing being mixed-in, but I saw a response that, when I acted on it, gave me good results. I have refined that now, over many years (because I'm slow of learning) to a point where the words of the Lord, transmitted by the Holy Ghost, give me a more clear and proper response. I'm sure that, years from now, it'll be a lot better. I see the same principle in action with the seer stone, Urim and Thummim, and finally, raw translation operating in the same "stepping-stone" manner.
Man, so much to comment on this video! RFM's last remark about, "if you want to stay in the church, don't study," got me thinking: Don Bradley could've DESTROYED this guy during the debate!
@@advocate7643 I disagree. I would say he's very serious, so serious in fact that he is a trusted source for interviews, writing books, giving lectures, etc.
@@jacobbuzan374I know, I’ve read his stuff. His rationale is a joke. For example, he thinks that because JS married women while they were pregnant that’s proof that he didn’t have sex with them. He takes facts and makes up assumptions. He doesn’t know logic.
I smoke weed daily (spinal injury), drop F bombs on a regular basis, and am basically far from perfect. Having said this, I do not want to live in an echo chamber and have a plethora of respect for anyone willing to be in the arena and from my perspective (I am not in any camp), the crew from MM did an excellent job working towards coexistence. Peace & Love!
Okay so that was a lot to unpack and I don’t have the time here to do it all but one day I may revisit this to give my full thoughts but I want to leave some of mine here now 1: I loved that positive ending 2: Brad thank you for being a voice of moderation, Kwaku and Cardon I love you two to death and I think you’re both great faithful people but I think both of you can do with learning from brads humility; the most productive conversations on this stage were when you both were willing to acknowledge the goodness in the other. 3: RFM is a very eloquent speaker and I have a respect for him even if I don’t agree with him on 99.99% of things. That’s okay. 4: theirs so much more to some these topics that I was disappointed to see not addressed by the midnight Mormons crew but I hope you will continue to discuss those topics faithfully in separate podcasts. 5: I just want to say this which I think helps summarize the churches standing on a LOT of things; the church’s culture and a lot of the horrible things that RFM experienced is due to toxic tribalism culture which in my opinion is a huge problem in the church and a huge problem with human nature. It’s inexcusable and wrong but not acknowledging that those things come with being human is disingenuous. I am more than willing to criticize and mournfuly look at some of the things that some church leaders have done; but that does not take away my personal experience and lived experience of deep study of the four standard works of the gospel has taught me: the church is true, the Book of Mormon is the word of God along with the Bible. That Jesus is the great Yahweh and ONLY THROUGH HIM CAN WE BE SAVED. My testimony ultimately is in Jesus and his willingness to work with broken and messy humans. Like Peter who denied him, like Nathan the prophet who authorized a temple without permission. Like David who was lustful, like the countless examples of prophets and us as infants in this mortal experience are. Jesus is my king. I will always tell you otherwise when people say that the church is not about building a relationship with Christ. I will tell you that unfortunately far too many members treat it as the church saves but I will tell that in my 4 year deep study into doctrine and scripture is that this is a huge mis-step from the church as a whole that needs to change and that I fight to change every single day. We need to stop trying to live up to God and instead see how he (Jesus as a member of the Godhead is God) descended below us. Because he already loves us. He loves and knows you wherever you are. And after we have accepted his love then repentance and change comes as a result of our relationship to Yeshua of Nazareth and our acceptance of his ability to help us grow and change. He isn’t waiting for you to change, he loved you before, during, after and everything in between your progression. I’ll probably get blasted in the replies, that’s the nature of these opposing sides debating and sharing a perspective on that subject. In conclusion, please midnight Mormons as your biggest fan take a look inward and try to be more humble; but KEEP DEFENDING THE FAITH. This gospel is true. I know it and love it. Thank you all for being who you all are. Kwaku’s firery temperament is good when channeled correctly, Cardon’s genuine care and openness of intellect is powerful and Brad you are my inspiration. Please keep doing the good that you do. But also be willing to repent, and change for the better; that’s all have a great night and I can’t wait to see what else is coming 🤗 El-shaddai bless and Good night. ❤️
I love this reply so much. Apart from beautifully expressing your beliefs, you also spoke from the heart to these guys. I am on the other side of the fence on a lot of these issues, but I have 100% respect for faithful members like these guys who are sincerely trying their best to express their humanity as best as they can. In the end that is the best any of us can do.
RFM made some super rude and blasphemous statements about church history, temples, and the prophet, and then as soon as Kwaku and the others started to bring the same energy, RFM started interrupting and getting aggressive. RFM, if you don’t like the heat, get out of the kitchen.
This was the very first “Mormon” content I ever saw on RUclips and the first part where Midnight Mormons appealed to spirituality, rather than empirical evidence, had me HOOKED. Thank you for sharing
Almost every religion appeals to spirituality or emotions. An Evangelical Christian can bear you his testimony that his brand of Christianity is the correct one, just as you can that Mormonism is the true one. A Scientologist or a Jehovah's Witness can do the same thing. I've heard fundamentalist Mormon polygamists bear their testimonies that their version of Mormonism is the "one true" one. That being the case, it's far more rational to consider the actual facts of religious claims and premises, rather than relying on "spirituality" or emotional feelings.
@@randyjordan5521 agreed that the appeal to spirituality isn’t unique. However, appealing to spirituality rather than empiricism or rationalism is not common in the Latter-Day Saint debate space-that’s what caught my attention. Your claim about an epistemology being “far more rational to consider the actual facts” remains to be seen but seems like it’s a common opinion
I think this really allowed everyone to open up and expose what they truly believe. Some beliefs were heartwarming and sweet while others were cringeworthy and bitter. I was on the edge of my seat the WHOLE TIME. Great entertainment. My favorite quote was the description of a lack of belief or belief in nothing aka Nihilism being "scorched f*cking earth". So many emotions. I'll probably watch it again.
it was entertaining I suppose, but sharing what you believe isn't the purpose of a debate; that's for testimony meetings. Debates are to share WHY you think your position is the correct one, and I think the Midnight Mormons completely failed on that front. Their arguments all seemed to boil down to hope. If you disagree with that assessment, let me know what you think was their best argument explaining who one should conclude the church is true.
@@kenhilker2507 I'll have to watch it again and get back to you. Honestly, I didn't watch it to be convinced, rather to see how it would all go down. It was a spectacular show.
@147 min. When RFM said Kwaku's question was "boring" about RFM's meaning of "I know," it was the BEST and MOST PROVOCATIVE question of the show. RFM said he would answer, but never did.
I agree. Most of the Mormon community at large would characterize “know” by the classic definition - 100% knowledge of a fact. There may be some nuance for a select few, but an 8 year old bearing his testimony is not defining it as “hope”.
All truth can be circumscribed into one great whole. Truth is truth. When you say “I know,” you are claiming complete understanding of a part of that universal truth. There is less nuance with “I know” than he claims there is. If you hope or believe, those words are available to you.
@Jon Bystrom 1:54:30 he throws a look of accusation at Kwaku when he talks about someone committing suicide because "they know" something. It's boring and useless when we're talking about testimony meeting, but the crux of his argument here hinges on the definition of "know".
Redefining "Knowing" as "not knowing for sure" is a perfect example of "doublespeak." Redefining words in this way, to mean the opposite of their original meaning, is a very authoritarian approach. To know something is ALL IN. We don't say we know when we don't know. Who does that? How many times have I heard the phrase "I know with every fiber of my being?" Many, many, many... I don't suppose that when they say that they mean they don't know for certain. I'm going to stick with my previous understanding in that when a person says "they know" they mean "they know." Otherwise, I'll go freaking crazy.
The fact is, no body “knows” what’s gonna happen after we die. My family lost our sister in year 2000. She was killed in a tragic boating accident caused by a church youth activity. Her party consisted of her friends, they were all celebrating their high school graduation. The party that crashed into her boat was an lds youth event. This started a lawsuit against the church. We would have won the case had the church lawyers not approached us and told us that none of us boys would be able to serve missions if the case was carried out. Because of my moms very strong belief in seeing her daughter again and the importance of us kids serving missions the case was dropped. We received no help from the church, we never went to counseling because the common perception was shrinks are quacks and we’ll be fine through the teachings of the gospel. It was always “we don’t know the answers or why they did this but we’ll know after we die” and we’ll see her again if we just stay strong to our covenants. I gave my life to the church for 25 years, my money my time. I served a mission when I was 23. I didn’t have to but I felt that that’s what god would want me to do and there was this lawsuit that happened so I could go so I better go or my sisters death would be in vain. It was not hard to come to conclusion that the church was not true. When I gave everything to the church yet they gave nothing in return but an apology from the president bishop. We were threatened and taken advantage of because the church wanted to protect their reputation and precious money. The church is not a helpful organization and when I started studying the history and things hidden by the church it was so easy for it all to fall apart. The book of Abraham does not explain the after life and the degrees of glory. The church uses the name of Jesus in vain to teach about concepts that no one can answer. Sure it’s a nice thought to believe life will happen after we die but who can honestly say they “know” that will happen. When you lose someone you want to see them so badly the notion that you can see them again is so tempting. My mother cast away her own children in order to hold on to her beliefs. I was judged because i was able to use logic and sense to see a different side. This kwaku character is very immature and the words he says is very ignorant, it all reminds me of my mom and how tightly she will hold on to what she believe and will say whatever she need to defend her beliefs to hold on to her dead daughter even though her living kids have been damaged by the organization that she so strongly believes. This is an extreme case but it is the fruits of the church. I see this happening more and more the church will only continue to damage and harm peoples lives in a insidious way not intentionally but just from its doctrines and culture. The fruits of the church are pain, sorrow, lies, manipulation, guilt, fear, confusion and death.
I don't know 100% for sure what happens after we die. I KNOW 100% for sure what happened when I stopped living my life for me and started truly living by dedicating my every breath to the cause of Jesus Christ. And, I am not that special. When you devote yourself to serving others instead of serving yourself, everything will change for you, just as it has for me and many others. The message of Jesus is that the Kingdom is here and NOW, for those who wish to partake of it. So stop judging all around you and let yourself be judged by Jesus. To the extent that you stop living your life and start living a life like his, you will be utterly transformed. You will be born again, of the Spirit. And you will have no fear or concern for a next life because you will be too busy enjoying this life, in Jesus Christ.
My condolences that you lost your sister. It sounds like this is the crux of what happened: " We received no help from the church, we never went to counseling because the common perception was shrinks are quacks and we’ll be fine through the teachings of the gospel" Who gave the counsel that going to a counselor would be unhelpful? Also, what help were you expecting in regards to the Church? Lastly, why do you feel that your mom cast you away in holding on to her beliefs?
This debate means so much to me. I see something that reminds me of something I know. It’s hard to share and explain with others who don’t but when you see the MM guy on the far right talking, you can see someone who has gone through it and still painstakingly stands and fights while you see the RFM guy just waiting to sink his teeth in. Lol this isn’t easy to explain, but the MM guy is me and the RFM guy is my ex landlord, a Protestant pastor who presumed to assert what he believed was his authority over me and my life and condescend to me and guilt trip me. That was a battle. As his tenant it was extremely uncomfortably but I stood my shaky ground none the less. I got out of there as well, but there is a certain loneliness that can set in when a grown man stands before and presumes to assert his dominance. I knew I was right though. This guy was trying to rule me and bully me but I knew better than to take it because God has given us all agency and there is no way in heck that it is mandatory to take what someone is dishing out. That was a pivotal moment in my life when I told him that he didn’t have that kind of authority over me. He didn’t know what to say.
I don’t think that Christ would intimidate people into belief, so don’t listen to people like that. I don’t believe in believing someone just because they have a big name or big credentials.
Gaynor Wells, you mad me so thankful I am no longer a member with your comment. Why is personal insult so often the first refuge of the those who constantly prattle on about being Christlike?
@@wesanderikaoneal9930 Not all of the Lord's champions are prophets. Their just great warriors (like Teacum) who are the young men at the gates who do not tolerate attacks against the people they love. So as far as I'm concerned, Kwaku rocks the socks off of the enemies of the faith. Go get em Kwaku.
@@khemingw I would assume that, unless god is an awful being, he would want more level-headed/compassionate types to defend his “faith” Less personal attacks and more listening/understanding
Wow I gained my testimony of the Book of Mormon the same day Brad! Same thing happened to me too! I put off the challenge until that day too and gained my testimony as I read Ether 12.
I appreciate Brad’s clear cut answer to the Plural Marriage question. They follow mainstream interpretation so, wasn’t expecting a black & white response.
Kwaku: my mom had to flee a Polygamist cult Also Kwaku: But hey, maybe Polygamy isn't that bad, right? You don't know unless you've lived it. Uh, go ask your Mom why she fled if it was that great
@@meetmeatmorgans27 The first 7 prophets of mormonism taught that Polygamy is the way of heaven and monogamy is evil. Look it up. The FLDS believes that these prophets were telling the truth and continued polygamy. It is always funny when mormons think their church is anything like the original. The original mormonism was all lot like the FLDS church, considering they kept more of the original principles. And Joseph Smith was a lot closer to Warren Jeffs than he was to Russell M Nelson.
What a shame that the Mormons could not put up a united front. One says marriage extends to same sex couples, another says he is proud of his polygamous roots. The other says it is a truly weird flaw that needs to be repented of.
by the denominations of one another, when that truth is clearly demonstrated to our minds, and we have the highest degree of evidence of the same. This is how truth is discovered and then Christ testifies of it himself with the holy ghost.
“[If the] Presbyterians [have] any truth. embrace that. [Same for the] Baptist. Methodist &c. get all the good in the world. [and you will] come out a pure Follower of Christ. - Joseph Smith. We Need to be ready to believe all true principles that exist, as they are made manifest from time to time. And True, If the Prophet of Jesus Christ were to reveal unto us Further Truth’s in other Sec’s. We should be ready to believe and try and understand it further in prayer and test the fruits of it wether one lives more with Christ like love in mind.
This is so laughable. If someone leaves any other religion and joins Mormonism we use word like strong and courageous. But that is a one way street. If they learn things about Mormonism or feel they receive answers from god we tell they are wrong perhaps even weak
While the topic of JS's rock came up a few times, the issue with it never did because the questions were overly complex and sloppy. The key point is that JS's seer stone was also his peep stone he used to go treasure seeking for money; never finding anything. Also, while the interpreters were supposedly built for JS to translate, instead JS uses his peep stone that he had dug out of a well. The questions were sloppy.
The questions were super sloppy and often bias (towards either side). As I expected, this could have gone much better if an independent moderator was used, and another format was used. I still enjoyed it, but I had much higher hopes.
@@bipolarrambling242 it’s not biased to the other side just because the reality disclosed in the question doesn’t match the narrative you’ve been used to hearing.
I think the age difference is key here. I understand how RFM is upset that he felt mislead by the church over B.O.M. origin story and how Cardon et al are not. The age of the internet has completely changed how the church has had to handle these problems.
@@jamesvaughn7389 I suggest their value systems are different. The MM's are focused on spiritual tribalism while RFM the reality of the truth claims. Beyond Kwaku's repeated secular fear mongering Cardon repeatedly referred to his brother's keeper, meaning spiritual keeper. That is what MM values most. You can't be fully honest when trying to keep people in the Church, which we saw on full display. RFM isn't burdened with that same responsibility, but instead takes an exploratory approach.
I really enjoyed this debate. I’m a faithful member of the Church and I feel like I’ve come across and digested basically all of the commonest attacks against the Church. I find the truth claims of the church more compelling than the counter arguments in general. I will say that it was great to hear someone come up with their most important attacks, or what they feel is most persuasive. What stood out to me most was what RFM said about not feeling any responsibility to provide a “so now what” for those who leave Christianity, or even theism. It really is scorched earth. Anyway, loved the debate and the moderator did an excellent job. So many good arguments for and against were presented.
The church owns several universities with qualified educators and historians to defend the truth claims and history of the church, and these amateur apologists are the only ones with the guts and conviction to attempt to defend? I thought their arguments were far less convincing on the topics… but I give them credit for being willing to do the debate the actual (more qualified) Mormon historians and apologists are not willing to do.
They aren't paid to do that and it's not their thing. They have lives, families and other things they are doing. Also, I think the brethren learned long ago, arguing isn't going to get anyone anywhere, so why do it? These guys do it for fun.
@@danascully7358 arguing can get people everywhere, you just have to think whether it’s a valid argument and whether you have the right words for it :D
That's all the church seems to say now, and it's all I basically heard from MM: “Tell other people what you FEEL.” (Not the logical reasons you believe. Because sorry - there aren't any.) At least that's what I've experienced in my studies.
@@danascully7358 You use arguing in a very harsh manner. I doesn't have to be fighting. Rather dialogue not debate would be better. If individuals in "dialogue" mode would avoid straw-man and instead build steel-man statements of the person in dialogue I think we might develop more understanding and empathy for each other.
Another point is "pray about it". No, we do not pray about something that God has already told us. We certainly do not rely on FEELINGS. Remember, God warns us that the heart is deceitful and wicked. The gentleman said he prayed and had an undeniable conviction of the Holy Spirit. Well, what about me? I prayed and had an undeniable conviction of the Holy Spirit that joseph smith was not a prophet of God and that the mormon church is not the true church. Since you have no idea HOW i prayed, or what any AGENDA or AIM was, you cannot say I did not pray with a sincere and contrite spirit. So, why is YOUR testimony true and mine false? If God says there is one God, period, and then joseph smith comes along and says no, there are many Gods ( deities ) and you can become a God ( not "like God", but "God", deity. ) then we don't have to pray about that.
Just got home after attending this. Kwaku, Brad, and Cardon all gave great testimonies to the Love that is in Jesus Christ. Shawn did a great job of hosting and moderating. We will keep RFM in our prayers as he clearly has gone through terrible trauma at some time with the Church.
Honest question for you. Do you believe other people can have spiritual or emotional experiences outside mormonism. I will guess your answer is yes. Do you believe these experiences always have to do with the BOM, Jesus, or anything Christianity related? I will guess your answer is no. Could believers in Islam have spiritual experiences related to Allah? Could Egyptians, Greeks, and Romans have spiritual or emotional experiences relating to their beliefs in Osiris, Zeus, or Jupiter? I don't know what your answer will be. The point that i am trying to make is that the spirit most likely does not have anything to do with truth and certainly does not testify of one uniform truth in the world. Maybe it could be and guide to each individual personally? But that would imply that all the other religions and Gods are also true and real. The spirit, or emotional moments when we watch movies, or hear sad or heroic stories, should just be appreciated for what it is. In my opinion, it is silly to attach uniform world and universal truth to emotional experiences. And people who say they don't know what is going to happen after death, are just being more honest than you. Don't pretend to know because you an emotional experience. Sure, accept it as your personal truth, but limit it to that.
Please stop perpetuating this lie. You've been programmed to believe that anyone who leaves this organization does so because of trauma or sin. This simply isn't the case. Many people simply can't live a life that isn't based on reason, evidence, and rational thought.
Sadly Kwaku El is immature and appears quite cocky, only due to his age and experience, that he goes on the offense with total attack tactics and generalities. He seems militant and very, very unbending and closed minded and rather uninformed, also due to his age I'm guessing. He has done nothing for me to want to become active again. He's on his phone constantly and just his constant response of LOL is of his age. Cardon Ellis and Brad Witbeck seem to have well thought out things to say and they seem to be truly converted to the gospel. I appreciated hearing what they had to say. By the way, there is a great deal of proven sexual abuse that has taken place in the LSD church and even at the MTC. There have been many polices changed within the church in order to protect people, especially children, from more abuses. Two teachers in primary classes, Sunday School classes, changes in the way the endowment is done in the temple. As a survivor of sexual abuse, not done in the church or by church leaders, I appreciate these changes and moderations.
Speaking of RFM's biggest take-a-way - Here's an idea for you guys to talk on an upcoming podcast - "am i my brother's keeper?" Followed by in-depth discussions with questions such as "why should I care what anyone else does or believe in?" or "are we to do only what's right for us and forget everyone else?". 99 and 1. Love thy neighbor as thyself. When thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren. "I'm not responsible for others". Family. Secular and non-secular families talk about "family" and caring for each other, but why can't (or don't) show that to others? Lots of juicy stuff in that possible podcast.
THANK GOD!!! some else who calls it "row sham bo!" 😂 Instead of 'rock paper scissors"!!!! for the last few years of my life i thought i was crazy 😆😂😂😂✌️
I'm a Gen Xer, seeing this debate is fascinating. I grew up in the church, came of age in the 80s. Now in my 50s watching these two generations debate church history, BofM, doctrine, I see the millennials as secular yet defending the old church by giving them a pass. I am shocked and somewhat disgusted. I accepted everything I was told, no questions asked. Now I find out the LDS Church lied and withheld damaging things. Yet this younger generation is just saying its all ok? Hell no, I was lied to and cannot reconcile anything.
1:46:20 Good point of Kwaku about precision in language. Spanish has two different words for "know" for different senses of the word (e.g. to know a person vs to know information or to know how to do something etc.) Edit: And no, epistemology, the study of how we know what we know and what that means, isn't "boring". To say so demonstrates intellectual laziness.
The only part I didn’t like was when ‘Kwakiutl said all the vitriol was coming from your side. Brother that goes both ways. He exhibited it while accusing them of it.
@@swaneespeedramsey6080 We (my side) may grant Kwaku's vitriol since you appear to grant Corbin's vitriol. Bro. Shawn attained detente from MM, but RFM refused pause. Bummer for goodness, huh?
The assertion that RFM has a responsibility to provide an alternative is nonsense. If he knew of a fraudulent MLM would he be responsible for creating a new MLM before he could warn people of the fraud? No. If RFM was aware of a dishonest car dealer would he have to open a dealership before he could warn people? No. RFM has no responsibility to start a church as an alternative to the false Mormon church.
"Difficult things to deal with in the Church"..... Those "difficult things" ARE EXISTENTIAL ISSUES about the formation, foundation, and founding of The Church. IF THESE THINGS ARE TRUE, THEN THAT CAUSES LEGITIMATE QUESTION ABOUT ALL OF IT.....ALL OF IT. And those are legitimate questions.
Cardon this is the BEST I have ever heard from you!!!! (which is a compliment because I love your guys show) THANK YOU! Thank you for being vulnerable and at 2:00 hours through the rest of that comment! ♥️ I was like “YES!!! Yes, that is everything anyone needs to know about us!” It’s also the best rebuttal ever because for that moment it was very clear the spirit was guiding you! Nothing speaks louder than that!!! Great debate from you guys and it does make me want to delve deeper into our history and grow my testimony!! Love you guys!!! P.S Thanks for the consistent content!!!
I've watched dozens of religious debates. This was by far the worst. I felt real hatred here, and had to turn it off mid way. I think anti-mormons really hate the Church - deeply - to the point of violence.
In my view one of the most dangerous things in the world is one-sidedness, because usually that means that real and authentic experiences of others get overseen... I know people who's lifes were saved by discovering their faith in the Church of Jesus Christ of latter day Saints, and I have seen the opposite happening.. and so that leaves the question what can be done about it? I think the answer will and should always be to take a honest look at both sides and be honest about things... Personally I dont think it would harm the church to adress the rather difficult topics, admitting that not everything every leader of the church ever did was without error.. rather the opposite, I think that it would strengthen the faith of many.. I loved how my mission president even wrote a book for us missionaries that adressed many of the things many members never heard of... Most of all, thank you guys for doing this great work...
Cardon and Brad, it’s important to note that some of us grew up hearing and bearing testimonies that described knowing things were true beyond a shadow of a doubt or with every fiber of your being. Yes maybe the members are guilty of doing this on their own but I don’t think so. This is how we heard the brethren and our leaders talk from the pulpit. It’s great that it is changing with the newer generations but to accuse us of not knowing what the church is now is you’re acknowledgment that you don’t know what the church was for years and for a lot longer than you’ve been around. I believe that is what RFM is trying to say when you describe a church that doesn’t exist.
Nah. You can only comment on your own experience. Midnight Mormons are right, RFM and co live in another world, fighting a cartoon version of Mormonism that never existed. Add me to the camp of people who grew up in this church and never heard the stuff RFM says is ubiquitous.
@@jonahbarnes5841 you’ve never heard someone testify they know the church is true beyond a shadow of a doubt? Or with every fiber of my being? Either you haven’t been a member long or your not being completely honest. The irony
@@Sayheybrother8 that's not what he said. He said that's the ONLY acceptable answer. Wrong. His cartoon version of Mormonism doesn't exist. He must caricature the church to justify his crusade against it. Then it matches his cartoonish logic and bumpersticker philosophy
@@jonahbarnes5841 You really can't deny if people who don't believe share their doubts with other Mormons they are excommunicated. It's happen tens of thousands of times.
@@KTPurdy stop moving the goalposts. He said the Mormon Church is BUILT ON the phrase "I Know." As if doubt is unwelcome and questions are untenable. What Church did you people grow up in? Questions and doubt are fine. No one is shunned for saying: "I don't have a testimony yet." Or "I'm struggling". RFM lives in a cartoon world of his own making. This isn't handmaidens tale.
Re: Kwaku's defense of Joseph Smith's possession and use of magical talismans, contrast that to LDS church president Joseph F. Smith's 1902 statement on such things: “One individual can not place an affliction upon another in the way that these soothsayers would have the people believe. It is a trick of satan to deceive men and women, and to draw them away from the Church and from the influence of the Spirit of God, and the power of his holy priesthood, that they may be destroyed. These peep-stone men and women are inspired by the devil, and are the real witches, if any such there be. Witchcraft, and all kindred evils, are solely the creations of the superstitious imaginations of men and women who are steeped in ignorance, and derive their power over people from the devil, and those who submit to this influence are deceived by him. Unless they repent, they will be destroyed. There is absolutely no possibility for a person who enjoys the Holy Spirit of God to even believe that such influences can have any effect upon him. The enjoyment of the Holy Spirit is absolute proof against all influences of evil; you never can obtain that Spirit by seeking diviners, and men and women who “peep and mutter.” Now, couple that statement with this one from Joseph F. Smith's son, apostle Joseph Fielding Smith: "While the statement has been made by some writers that the Prophet Joseph Smith used a seer stone part of the time in his translating of the record, and information points to the fact that he did have in his possession such a stone, yet there is no authentic statement in the history of the Church which states that the use of such a stone was made in that translation. The information is all hearsay, and personally, I do not believe that this stone was used for this purpose." So, Kwaku is defending magical objects and practices that have been condemned and denied by LDS church prophets and apostles.
Brad is wearing his plate carrier a little too low. Kwaku to some extent as well. Your stomach isn't the priority target in an attack, my friends. Someone aiming from just slightly above them could probably hit the heart or lungs. Be safe guys! I'm serious. You may have worn them today satirically/as an extreme precaution, but if the day comes when one is facing a certain danger, best to have all your ducks in a row.
Thanks for the tip! It felt like I had something about it wrong, but I was setting up some of our equipment and didn’t have time to check it. I’ll keep it in mind for next time :)
The very idea that they actually believed that they were in danger of physical harm was silly. From the inception of Mormonism, non-Mormons have been far more likely to be the victims of violence from Mormons than the other way around.
Kwaku: "Nobody understands it (polygamy) except for those in it." Does that also mean that nobody understands Jonestown except for those who were there? Should Jim Jones also be studied through a charitable lens by outsiders?
@@thejorgerojas Okay, take your pick: "Unless you've been the recipient of misogyny, you don't understand misogyny." "Unless you've been the victim of a racist attack, you don't understand racism." "Unless you've run for President of the U.S.A., you don't understand the President of the U.S.A." "Unless you're circumcised, you don't understand circumcision." "Unless you wrote this novel, you don't understand this novel." See why this argument is fallacious? An idea/concept is not exempt from scrutiny simply because the critic hasn't personally experienced the consequences of that idea/concept.
A man and a man might be together…in heaven. You lost me there Kwaku. That’s right about where I stopped watching this. There are too many progressive ideas keep being taught by some of those on this channel, ironically enough by supposedly non-Progressives. Not trying to be unkind, but I gotta call it as I see it. .
It has been 1,032 days since this debate and I am disappointed that we have yet to see a Cardon vs Radio Free Mormon “who will break first” dad joke competition 😔
Yeah, had he had the nerve to call out RFM about the seriousness of it all as he comes on with that vest, and had previously made other attempts at humor.
The three of them did an amazing job for what it was. However, I don’t like what it works. I think that debating with someone who isn’t even concerned about the truth, is playing into the hands of the adversary.
This is off topic, but that set needs at least one more blue panel.
This might be the most universally agreed on point of the entire debate lol.
obviously you were the most observant of all of us or your OCD is kicking in and you need to take your medication lol. I didn't notice until you mentioned it.
I agree.
Probably the far left orange one should be blue. Or the one between the two tall oranges
😂😂😂
I'm super greatful for Sean and his efforts to keep the peace and everyone on topic with respect, I'm greatful for the awesome questions, and I think both sides did a great job at answering the questions with their personalities in full force. Thanks for the vid, I appreciate everything you guys do. Y'all are awesome.
RFM was practically never on topic. He was nothing but attack dog tactics just so he could get a bite almost every time he spoke
@@khemingw like I said, they answered with their personalities
Why are people who use proper arguments using facts, logic and reason vilified with ad hominem attacks like being called an attack dog but give no valid argument to dispute what they have said? @@khemingw
Kwaku attacking a defense attorney for defending a murderer is absurd. People deserve legal council no matter what they’ve done.
Agree. It’s the most basic concept of our legal system.
On my mission, my companion and I bible bashed a Jehovah Witness elder. After several sessions he said to me you might have won an argument but lost a friend’. 45 years later, I so wished I hadn’t done that. His friendship would have been of greater value than taking away his own faith and possibly leaving him with nothing. The biggest regret of my mission.
He probably stopped caring the next morning when he woke up.
I am a Jehovahs witness and I'm more than willing for you to discuss with me, depending on who you spoke to depends on how much they knew how about your religion.. He probably wasn't really fully aware of what you believed... I doubt you could bash me like you did him, as you put it... And I doubt he ended up LDS.... RFM's brother is a Jehovahs witness
Nah! It was over 45 years ago. I don’t need the hassle. You guys just need to learn that the word ‘Elohim’ is plural. If your translation of the Greek scriptures was a little more accurate then maybe you would have a case. Sorry bro, I am off to do something more meaningful with my life like removing fluff from my naval.
@@Englishbob1955 And Yahshua means YAWA saves... Not Yahshua saves. And Paul said women should not teach... oops.
I really appreciate that everyone involved in this conversation was able to play a respectable role. This is perhaps the most difficult topic to discuss without emotion taking the wheel and directing it in a negative, nonproductive direction. I think that leaving the expectations that you will somehow manage to persuade others to change what they deeply believe, is important. The best you can hope for is that both parties gain a little more perspective of how and why the other side believes as they do. In hopes that each person possibly gave the other something to think about. More so the hope would be, that you yourself opened your mind to the possibility of now having something to think about.
I don’t think this was a respectful debate at all! Just look at those three men wearing body armor! The personal attacks were awful, especially when ganged up three to one. I don’t know what the hell those guys were thinking, but if I were a neutral party, I’d say the Mormons were the bad guys.
@@AJ-ib4oy I hope you’ll allow me to redact my comment. I guess what I was trying to say was, this was the most respectful I have seen the “Midnight Mormons” be. If you’ve ever seen them before, I think you’ll agree. I do agree with your reply.
CARDON: Often times modern anti-mormonism doesn't refute scripture it fulfills it. BOOM! Mic Drop!
Every religions scripture says there will be people opposing their group.
Questions for Midnight Mormons: will you do a podcast about the debate?
Was there any drama the day of?
How was mingling with the crowd and eating after the debate?
How was rfm after the debate?
How was bill and what was your conversations with him? How did he receive being called out?
Is there any plans of going on bills podcast or him going on your podcast?
How did you feel the debate went?
Cardon looked tense, where cardon is real loose on the podcast. Was there a reason?
What did you feel went good and what went bad?
Rfm what was a good view point and what went poorly for him?
Rfm joke about someone being aroused. Haha you got to love rfm. Another way to break a awkward hug!!!!! Haha
Love this debate!!!! Well done brethren!
That’s a lot of questions… I am sure we will
Do some kind of follow up…
@@madmanmanx if you do post debate podcast, here’s a couple questions you can answer. We want the dirt if there was any. Great job on the debate.
Cardon wasn’t tense. He was asked a deeply spiritual question about faith and gave his testimony while reliving a moment he held his baby girl in his arms not knowing which breath would be her last. I won’t judge you for being snippy but if you have never been there, you haven’t been there.
@@kingster99me it was a different cardon I never saw before. His passion came out and I felt it. He did an amazing job. Kwaku, Brad, rfm, and the moderator also did an amazing job.
@@jdawg3677 💕
My summation of the MM positions on the whole -
If we abandon the notion of the absolute truth of our faith, having nothing to replace it with is too frightening to contemplate
Which for the majority, could not be further from the truth. Just like most mormons are good people. Leaving mormonism, for most people, turns out perfectly fine
Yeah... that's the fear that's fostered in the church causing members to be terrified of raising their children outside of it.
I also know multiple people who are still scared to leave or have their records removed in case it's all real and they can't get into celestial glory without their valid saving ordinances... the conditioning is heavy.
If God doesn't give us the spirit of fear, why are so many afraid to leave? People say they could leave at any time, but see what happens when you stop paying your tithing... you lose your family for eternity unless you get back on track and pay for that premium, exclusive package.
@@CrustyRusty366that’s a good comment. LDS theology is insane but I know a ton of Mormons and they are legit great hearted people. Most of them anyway.
I was there live in person! It was fun. I think it's pretty cool for everyone to make this happen. The best part was briefly meeting them all afterwards.
Your opinion, please. The stream mood was MM overall tone = love; Corbin overall tone = hate. And what was audience mood? Better for MM or better for Corbin? Thanks.
Hi Kevin :)
@@BlueHalfVision the audience was no less than 90% with the post Mormon view. You can probably infer the audience mood from that. I believe that people perceive how it went based on what side they were on. Even though I'm a former member, I don't really care about points from either side. I like to see good dialogue from both sides. There were good moments where I think I was able to understand where the mm are coming from a little more and there were some tense, not so good moments. Being in the room really amplified the mood.
@@KevinN3 Thx, Kevin. In-persons are good sources.
I went to the karaoke night instead. Were you at Thrive. I was the one in the South Park Joseph smith cosplay
First I want to say thank you so much to midnight Mormons for being part of this. I watch both your channel and Mormonism live most weeks. I am on the other side of the fence on many issues. But I still remember clearly what is was like to be all in. I really want to be part of a new culture in the church. I spiritually am in a different place, but I am still a member and plan to continue to be. And I have so much respect for these guys for In their own way moving all of us forward. there were things in the debate on both sides that could have been better, but there were so many more awesome moments.
I loved the passion from midnight Mormons, and I loved the logic and humor from RFM. I really hope we can all get to a place where both sides are seen as legitimate, and we can love each other without needing to be right. The non-believing side needs to do way better at being respectful. Faith is sacred no matter what it is, and we need to have decency. So from one non believer, I say that I want a world in which you are completely able to not feel pressured or threatened by those on the outside. The vandalism and threats Cardon witnessed in California and the arson of meeting houses is inexcusable. We have to own that to some degree, in that we need to condemn it.
At the same time I get where RFM was coming from with feeling like he didn’t need to provide another spiritual framework for those who experience change in their faith. What would that look like exactly? I don’t think secularism is the threat it was presented to be, because secularism isn’t necessarily a culture, -if it is hostile secularism, in that people are actively trying to destroy religion, I agree that is a force that we should oppose. But being able to criticize respectfully is crucial to freedom of thought, and is not the same as trying to tear down religion. We can criticize Islamic terrorism and be completely justified in doing so, and at the same time recognize the beauty that is also in Islam, and most Muslims are peaceful.
I get that atheism is an absence of belief, but I think most people are still spiritual, in the sense that they believe there is meaning in life. Like RFM expressed, spirituality can simply be an unknown. There is a lot of beauty in the uncertainty, because we get to see life as a journey. I think the meaning in life is self evident, in the beauty of moments and relationships we can experience. In that sense there is real spiritual value to life regardless of a metaphysical backdrop.
I look forward to the day when we can all focus on the common ground, and everyone feels like they have a place. It’s not easy being the only non-believing member of my family, but I want to help create a culture where I feel welcome in the church, and what you all have been doing In my view is moving us all in the right direction, so once again I sincerely thank you and look forward to more content, and when the hostile idiot antis are making life difficult, know that there are so many people that support you, and that your making the world a better place.
The culture REALLY has changed from RFM’s formative years. The restoration is ongoing and the church gets purer and outer… hope that makes sense. I don’t mean that in a braggy way… just thought there has been a huge shift toward love, acceptance, tolerance. People are done with the toxic perfectionism stuff. We are evolving and it is amazing to watch and be a part of.
@@JennieFur47 Yeah they don't say restored anymore. They say the restoration is a process. That's not what I was taught growing up, I'm 35. But it's essential as the church has a ton of changing to do.
@ Jen F, Christianity has been an open book since day 1, why waste your time with a $120,000,000,000 corporation that’s only now discovering Jesus and the New Testament?
I’m returning to the church after being away for 39 years and have struggled with much in my life. I often wonder about, if I had remained active, would I have had a more joyful life. The answer is yes. What stands out most to me about this debate is that those that seek to destroy the church and its members take no responsibility or do they offer a better alternative. The church is not perfect because of man’s imperfections but because of this it has the ability to become more like what are Heavenly Father wants us to be. Watching this debate underscores that there is no such room for growth on the other side.
Exmo here. I wish you the best in your return. I hope you find exactly what you are looking for.
Wishing you the very best. Leaving the exmo community can be very traumatic. If you weren’t part of it good for you. I’m battling with a belief in god at all so I see the side of RFM but don’t agree with his cynicism and anger and desire to only bring down people of faith. This is my first time hearing about and of RFM and because of his sourness and rancor and conniving spirit I won’t ever listen to more from him. Please pray for me, I don’t want to become what I saw on display from RFM and what I see from most exmo community cult members.
@@dcarts5616 Leaving the MORMON community can be very traumatic. Also, I don't see how you can call out RFM being upset when Kwaiko (or however you spell his name) was using ad hominem attacks. Why is Kwaiko's cynicism valid and RFM's isn't?
@@halcyon2017 a simple Google search can teach you how to spell Kwaku El, nice dismissal of him though, really nice lol. The fighting is silly. Nothing that RFM, JD, JH, MS or any of the faith deconstructionist grifters do is new, just differs tactics and periods of success. I see absolutely nothing out of the ordinary in those who leave any types of faith, any type of community, or groups where there are standards of ANY sort. I just watched a video about leaving college and the abuses and stresses and demands and trauma suffered while at the university level institution. It was interesting to see the similarities and the pettiness.
@@dcarts5616 And look at how you dismiss the deconstruction community. Do you look at the Mormon community with the same lenses? Or is that only reserved for people who don't think the way you do? Do people not need support after leaving abusive relationships?
Kwaku is great at deflection and pretending to be a victim. It's sad really. At least Cardon and Brad seem very sincere.
Kwaku seems really angry and bitter. He spent most of his time making accusations and demeaning others, then threw in a bunch of worse case scenario threats of what would happen if people don't follow him. I'm not mormon or exmormon so I'm not sure if this is a typical mormon, but he seemed a lot like the evangelicals of the south that promote hatred and then claim to believe in Christ. I realize he is young so perhaps experience will lend its hand over the years.
@@mikechristensen1604 He acts in a way to get reactions out of others and then accuses them of misbehaving. For example when he said "your side." and then got upset RFM interrupted him. This is a tactic I see used by apologists of all beliefs. When you make a personal attack people will naturally respond. It was a calculated attempt to make the other side appear bad and that they are not following the rules. In my opinion it is a tactic of a coward who has little to no faith in their own argument.
Kwaku is an actor, so, there's that.
He is also pretty intelligent but he uses it for his Mormon fantasy.
Brad...maybe.
Kwaku a Latter Day hero !
Kwaku: “that, to me, seemed like a bit of a rant…”
Also Kwaku: immediately proceeds to make his ENTIRE response a rant with not one useful rebuttal.
Damn dude! You perfectly captured my thoughts on that.
Kwaku is such an arrogant punk.
I personally can not listen to him... He behaves like he’s the Ninja 🥷 of Mormon apologetics!!!😵💫
@@thenowchurch6419 😂😂😂
Kwaku's responses were absurdly hollow. He has got to be the most vacuous person I have ever seen. Typical pretentious undergrad. He thinks if he's assertive and pretends he is knowledgeable, he wins the argument, when anyone with an ounce of critical thinking ability can see right through him.
For example, he claimed that bookstores are full of books on folk magic and mystics. First, maybe in Provo, Utah but I've never seen it. Second, even if true, it doesn't make it 'a divine part of everyone,' or whatever he said. Guess what is wide spread: PORN! Is that a divine part of everyone too!? Kwaku's dumbassery knows no bounds. Follow Deepak Chopra if you must, Kwaku, but please spare the rest of us.
Oh, and before anyone starts, THIS IS NOT "PRESENTISM". What Joseph Smith was doing was illegal in his time, and condemned. The only practitioners were superstitious bumpkins like the Smith family. That's why Joseph Smith was in court! The fact there are so many superstitious bumpkins still falling for such a blatant con today is a condemnation of our education system.
My favorite part was when RFM turned into Darth Vader and tried to get Brad to join the Dark Side with him.
I was going to say the same thing but exactly the opposite. Trying to turn a buddy on his friends by complimenting him and then revoking the complement is dirty. It is a bait of false unity with himself to ultimately leave Brad unified with no one. The more I think about it the sicker I get.
Good thing Brad isn't weak minded or stupid.
@@rickyde0255 he took the bait and threw his friends under the bus.
@@thomasveech7456 no his friends couldn’t help themselves and they attacked Corbin in such disturbing ways that Brad was as respectable as Corbin who just shared truths not attacks with the others.
Thought it was hilarious when Kwaku forced his own side to disagree with him. Like, RFM is a bad guy for being a defense attorney who defends people's rights to a fair trial and due process... 2:07:53 LOL...
to: @Jeremy Robinson ... even Perry Mason was discriminating when he chose clients. nothing wrong with using your valuable time to help the people who deserve it the most. ... peace
@@harryabelpotter9630 the fictional character Perry Mason?
@@jeremyrobinson9660 ...
He's the all time G.O.A.T lawyer from TV.
Kwaku is literally the kind of person who would burn you at the stake for believing in science if he had grown up in the 1400's. It's honestly terrifying to see
@@harryabelpotter9630 In case you aren't aware, sometimes lawyers are forced to defend certain clients as public defenders. Every American has the right to a fair trial, no matter how obviously guilty they are.
Brad at approx. 2:18:19 ALL revelations to the prophets and apostles have to be agreed on by all of the members of the top 15. So LDS doctrine is voted on and no revelation can be announced unless all agree. What is the point of having a prophet who can receive revelation about his church if he then has to go and meet with the others and they have to agree that it is a revelation. If you are in doubt about this go back and review the conference talk(s) where they say that it can take years for a revelation to be announced to the church. NOT revelation in my view and one of the many factors that caused me to become a non-believer in the restored gospel of the LDS church.
I'm post faith crisis, active, hold a calling, but I no longer believe any of the truth claims that make the church "the one and only true" church. I make room for the church to be inspired tho. With that context, this debate pulled me in many directions. I would say it was a draw. Most of the debate did not address the biggest problems- Like epistemology, does being "good" matter more than truth, and the ethics of speaking for God. When it started to go that direction, RFM steered it back to the surface level issues and it deteriorated into ad hominem and "our side vs your side". I like RFM but I don't think he should have been the one to represent exmos. I find RFM's humor misplaced in many cases and in this debate it was no exception. It really detracted from the debate. With the MM- for the love of all that is good, get Kwaku off the stage. His rant on the history of seer stones was the most tangental non-starter I've ever heard around that subject.
I'm mostly in the same place as you. I find it difficult. It's a difficult religion to do half way. So many ideas that you have to agree to.
I'm not and I've never been a Mormon, but I also keep myself open to accept that the Mormon Church might be inspired at some level. The problem is that the Church itself will never take this position and they seem to hold to the idea that their history, what the BoM is, and how it came to be, is 100% true, which has come to bite them in the past when people have found out that they were lying or hiding things.
As popular as that position might be, there really is no middle ground. It's either true, or it's filled with a multitude of conspirators. Personally, I find it difficult to believe that the entire Smith family was in on it, along with the 3 and 8 witnesses. I can't even get my brothers together for Thanksgiving, let alone for a religious movement/lifestyle.
@@Ether-pb5gb that’s a straw man and a false binary. Two logical fallacies. Take your apologetics elsewhere.
(protestant Christian here) I'd suggest that there is a truth that the LDS church falsely built upon. Therefore, there are some truths about the LDS church - however those are the truths that historic Christianity stands firmly upon. There is only one "true church" out there, and it's the universal body of believers who believe and have faith in Jesus Christ (LDS Jesus is different than the Jesus of the Bible)
Well done. Thought this went well.
Cardon normally acts as discussion facilitator as the host of the show and it was really cool to see him use personal experiences to tie to his defense arguments. I thought his responses were all well said.
Brad kept RFM's logical flaws honest and wouldn't let him get away with poor arguments. It's also clear the exmos want to pull Brad away from the other two because they see Brad as they saw fair: a person who will always turn the other cheek to the exmo punches. But now that the three of you are punching back they are calling foul and will attempt to divide you. Don't let them.
Kwaku did an awesome job connecting the dots between religion and spirituality. RFM loves the idea of younger people losing their faith in droves, but the younger generation is actually very spiritual and are searching for authenticity. Loved that.
Kudos to the four of you for having this discussion. Hope to see more of these.
The Midnight Mormons used some surprisingly heterodox arguments which was interesting. Radio Free Mormon was also more compassionate than many ex-Mormons I've run into. Overall, I think this was a refreshing and helpful discussion.
People who don’t know the backstory to this “debate” don’t realize that RFM never claimed to represent the ExMo’s. This was really a personal throw down between the two podcasts as personalities.
@@Alaneberhard Nor should Midnight Mormons be understood to represent mainstream LDS thought...that's part of what made this so interesting.
@@nathangale7702 true.
Ex-mo here. I appreciated this debate, and i appreciated listening to the midnight Mormons side of things, and understanding a little better where you're coming from. I thought Brad was the most likable person in the stage, and i want to be friends with him. I hope everybody watching this could understand the other side a little better and at the end of the day, be kind and love each other
Well thought out response. How long were you in the Church and how long have you been out of the church. Do you have another faith or agnostic now, or atheist? Just curious about your journey, since the comment is very thoughtful. I would have a ton more questions for you, so maybe don't awnser since I'll just ask more :)
@@clearstonewindows i truly love talking about my faith journey from the stance of being better understood and not from the stance of converting anyone. I was born in the church, and only really started questioning about 2 years ago. I'm agnostic now. I'd welcome any other questions you have!
@@amberhodges8383 do you think you have free will? Agnostic means you don't care right?
@@clearstonewindows being agnostic simply means you are willing to admit that you don't know what happens after death. There could be a creator or creators, or there could not. And coming to terms with that reality. For some people, they need a religion to deal with their mortality. And for others, coming to terms with not knowing can be just as freeing. Religions have always existed of all kinds, most of which have people who deeply believe in them because of elevation emotion. Which is totally fine. Each individuals journey is different. My only beef with Mormonism and many other religions is the claim to be the one. In my opinion, if there is a creator, there is insurmountable evidence indicating he doesn't actually care what religious beliefs humans hold.
@@CrustyRusty366 Do you think you have free will?
Also about the claim of the church of Jesus Christ of latter-day saints... hypothetically speaking do let's say God did come down and talk to Joseph Smith, would you have a problem with him making that claim if it actually did happen?
I loved this guys! I cheered for both sides at different point in time. when kwaku said at the end really touched me when he said let the bitterness go. Last year I was struggling with my faith. For about a month I took my anger out on Exmo Reddit. I was really sad and then having hate on Reddit, really put me in a dark place. After a month, it struck me that I wasn’t any better. I slowly accepted the church for the good it does. The bitterness was let go and I enjoy church and life more. I still have questions but I strive for Christ like attributes instead of hate.
He let the bitterness go?
Hey! That is an amazing testimony! Congrats on focusing what really matters
That’s good to hear.
I just can’t get passed the evidence showing that Joseph Smith had child wive(s)
@@gerardodominguez5755 It's false. See the book, "The Exoneration of Emma, Joseph and Hyrum."
Cardon, I’ve been playing your comments about “I will be my brothers keeper” on repeat. That was one of the best snippets of faithful debate on any video I’ve ever seen.
I thought that part of the debate was the most ridiculously hypocritical part of it! You have these idiots upset that someone is being truthful about their religion and this may cause distress. That the person telling them the truth should somehow be able to offer them something else and let them down easy. I call them idiots because any rational person would see that the problem was the church lying to them in the first place! It's the Mormon church that has been immoral, not RFM!
@@notnow659 100%
Few of questions for the MM trio.
1. Is your concern for your safety so great that you always go around in armored vests? And if not why?
2. Does Kuaku think people convicted of crimes or that are petitioning the court are entitled to competent defense council?
3. Has Kwaku every expressed an issue with Mormon church friendly law firms defending accused sexual abusers?
4. Should Mormon church leaders be called out when they blatantly lie or as Brad once called it, "represented things as they saw it from their perspective".
5. Is belief in any religion, even though it may be false, better than no religious belief at all.
1. I believe it was joke because they are walking into a war zone during the debate.
2. I would assume so. Because you are innocent until found guilty.
3. If there wasn't ppl trying to get a free dollar from the church and ppl trying to destroy the church we wouldn't be talking about it also the church or doctrine is perfect but the people in it not and those that become abuser will be judged by God and very sad for them in the next life. Why is the church being held responsible for peoples dumb choices
4. I don't think leaders blatantly lie. Can't believe what some people say.
5. I would say yes a religion is better than no religion but on the same breath it could be toxic depending what that religion teaches.
Hope I don't step on toes answer these
A question for those that sided with Midnight Mormons in this debate; What's more important to you?
A: Believing a historical claim is true because the claim is the best reconstruction of what most likely happened in the past, based on the available empirical evidence.
B: believing a historical claim is true because that belief provides value in your daily life, regardless of what the empirical evidence indicates.
I think A matters. But if I'm being honest, I want the Church to be True. No other faith, including standard Christianity, has such a wonderful narrative about life and its purpose. I will also say that while I wish I was more spiritual, the thing that attracts me the most is Logos. Logic and Reason bring me to God. There is no tenable position outside of faith.
@@nwkitesurfer Thanks for the response! Hypothetically, you were to become convinced that the empirical evidence pointed to the BoM claims being untrue, would the narrative of the church be sufficient to sustain your belief? Faith can be a tricky word. Can you elaborate what you mean by 'faith' in that last sentence?
@@kenhilker2507 I wrote a considerable answer, then lost it. So I'm going to shorten this a bit. The answer is Yes, the narrative of the Church would sustain me. I find empiricism, materialism, and atheism self-refuting. I question the self-awareness of any who embark on these paths of fast-food religion. To reference Dune, in this life, we all have the gom jabber at our necks, and we are proving by our choices of thought and deed whether or not we are animals or children of God. Guess who's holding the gom jabber? We are! We are holding it to our own necks. Listen to how RFM describes the relationship of father, mother, and child, and you tell me if he's about to prick his neck. Simply put, we all get to decide our faith (or lack thereof), and even if a bunch of scammers ran this Church, everything I have learned has been good. I will only ever believe in a religion that tells me to "prove all things and hold fast to that which is good" and where the fundamental tenant of our faith is to embrace ALL truth, "come whence it may." (JS)
@@nwkitesurfer Can you help me understand what appears to be a contradiction? You said you'll only follow a religion which says to "prove all things", but you also said yes, you'd stay in a religion even if its historical claims were to be proven false. How do you reconcile those two statements?
@@kenhilker2507 This is a rationalism vs empiricism debate. I've proved the Church, and it is good.
That ending filled me with so much love. I couldn't help but get emotional. Gave my dad a really long hug afterwards, and it's inspired me to be more Christ like.
I'm sure we all will be wrong in certain areas when we die and meet Christ, but I believe that when we are most Christ like at the end of the video, we will know his Gospel better, and any LGBTQ+ issues that might not be entirely understood yet and though we as people make alot of assumptions based off of very little knowledge at times, those issues will be made okay as we live like Jesus in the end of this video.
Every answer will be solved eventually especially revelation whyse the more we really and earnestly act like Jesus would act.
That is the answer to most problems. I've seen angels and I've felt Christ's physical hands in the church of Jesus Christ, I've heard heavenly father's voice and I've experienced so many blessings in his church, but that was when I was really living a Christ centered life and only then.
Theirs many controversial things, but I do know that we do live after this life, I know because of my grandparents who died, and because Jesus Christ taught me that.
The most important thing to Christ is that we love like Jesus loved and that will direct all doctrine to it's rightful place that we may have misunderstood and other churches may have understood or misunderstood. We all have growing to do, but the most important thing to Christ is that we are loving each other ❤️ and he's willing to help us through the eternitys, through our understanding and all if we will let him.
Jesus works with other churches as well, and even angels who have authority through someone who has a body who might not have authority can help do ordinances in other churches, Jesus Christ answers their prayers to. But I do have a strong belief in the foundation and preisthood that the church of Jesus Christ has authority of for sure, for sure, and like Joseph Smith said before he died, the church of Jesus Christ is part of the body of Christ with all of the other churches in Jesus Christs Name.
I love church history, and I especially love the part before Joseph Smith died where he said those things, and the Christ like love Joseph Smith often showed.
I understand the perspective of the critic, and I understand the perspective of the believer.
But from my experience Joseph Smith wasnt perfect but he was really striving to be like Jesus Christ and thats what I am for to, Joseph Smith though he can easily be perceived as many things cause of the complications of history and records helped point me to Jesus Christ and taught me many precious truths Jesus Christ and the holy ghost In personage have taught me and many others.
I say all of these things in the sacred name of Jesus Christ Amen.
Well said.
Kwaku was the most disrespectful and hypocritical on this debate. He resorted to attacking RFM’s character to try to prove his point and even tried to bring out “dirt” from RFM’s job as a lawyer… while talking about one’s “eternal worth”. Such a low blow. It just shows how immature he is and how unprepared he was for this debate, the most “unlike Christ” behavior I’ve seen coming from a member of the church. RFM was witty & rocked the show!
Yeah, I know this is all personal but I agree. He is intolerable to watch. I’m still active and I guess going through a “faith crisis” and he should really not be in this arena. His points, imo, are juvenile. The history is what it is. If you want to believe then believe. If you want to redefine what “know” is then you can argue any point and make it nuanced. But there’s a reason FAIR took their videos down…they were ad hominem and frankly ridiculously embarrassing.
Agreed. This is what happens when someone believes he is untouchable, the unregenerate behavior shows. He shows no fruit of the Spirit but is a mean and vindictive person, hardly a good representative of so many incredibly kind Mormons I've met whose kindness made me take a 2nd look at the Book of Mormon. I can't believe they give Kwaku a platform to spew his sophomoric vitriol.
As an outsider I can tell you that someone needs to muzzle him from representing LDS 3.0 doctrine (coined here, now) or it will never get off the ground.
Also the "I was never taught that" doesn't fly for anyone who has watched even and only the last 6 general conferences like me and have seen these ideas taught.
Kwaku attacking the American system of jurisprudence was the low point of the debate. Well, that and insinuating that RFM had something to do with burning LDS chapels. Very sleazy approach to debating.
to: @Glaucia Amaral ... RFM, aka Corbin T Volluz, aka CTV ..... CTV spoke falsehood when he claimed that, "for the last century until the essays" the Church hid the story of the rock in the hat until "the October (2015) Ensign magazine." RFM is older but not wiser and no closer to the truth and what he said is pure falsehood.
@@harryabelpotter9630 It was mentioned once in the Ensign, yes?
I'm a post mormon... I just wanted to thank you three for your answers to the questions, sharing your stories, and offering your heartfelt comments in the debate.
Ben, what are you up to now?
Also, do you think you have free will?
Wow. First nice comment I’ve read on this all day. Good to hear not everyone’s a troll. Lol
@@madmanmanx So, all of the negative comments makes one a troll?
@@madmanmanx I think y'all get too much hate. It takes courage to put yourself out there and do what you believe is right. 👊🙏
Relax Guynn.
59:47
Witbeck: "I do find it interesting... you said so little about polygamy, I feel like there's a ton to say"
RFM: "None of it's any good" - audience laughs
Kwaku: "Hey, uh, I'm a product of polygamy. I think I'm pretty good" - audience groans
Kwaku is so utterly self-absorbed that he thinks being a product of polygamy is sufficient evidence of its goodness. Women are not even remotely satisfied with that ridiculous answer to a very harmful practice.
Lmao
So you’re just gonna ignore that RFM blatantly dodged responding to our answers about polygamy and went off on a tangent?
@@bradwitbeck To be fair, I did include your quote where you called RFM out for that. Or maybe you meant to reply to the comment by @iamjustsaying1
@@bradwitbeck Questions maybe you could address on the show. Do you believe other people can have spiritual or emotional experiences outside mormonism. I will guess your answer is yes. Do you believe these experiences always have to do with the BOM, Jesus, or anything Christianity related? I will guess your answer is no. Could believers in Islam have spiritual experiences related to Allah? Could Egyptians, Greeks, and Romans have spiritual or emotional experiences relating to their beliefs in Osiris, Zeus, or Jupiter? I don't know what your answer will be. The point that i am trying to make is that the spirit most likely does not have anything to do with truth and certainly does not testify of one uniform truth in the world. Maybe it could be and guide to each individual personally? But that would imply that all the other religions and Gods are also true and real. The spirit, or emotional moments when we watch movies, or hear sad or heroic stories, should just be appreciated for what it is. In my opinion, it is silly to attach uniform world and universal truth to emotional experiences. And people who say they don't know what is going to happen after death, are just being more honest than you. Don't pretend to know because you an emotional experience. Sure, accept it as your personal truth, but limit it to that.
Unreal how much Kwaku resorts to ad hominem.
Kwaku is a joke.
He can't attack the message, so he attacks the messengers in his way.
@@gdog3finally like all Narcissist !
Agreed
You lose the argument so you attack the person
I just listened to this whole debate, if you want to call it that, on a drive up to coast.
I was shocked ho how much church history RFM is mixed up with. He wouldn't last too long with a real LDS church historian. For example he brings up the "seer stone" problem. And that the church never mentions the "seer stone". Doctrines of Salvation Volume 3 Page 225 Jospeh Field Smith discusses the seer stone and that Joseph Smith used this to continue to translate the BOM after the 116 pages went missing and the Urim and Thumin were returned to Moroni.
That's just one thing that stood out.
The is no official story of JFS discovering the alternative first vision accounts then "Hidding" them.
It's an assumption at best. And so on and so on.
Towards the end his whole rant about "how to stay mormon" Is just so terrible condescending and aroagant. As if ALL LDS who study the gospel or who ever had a faith crisis leave the church. It's just unreal. "And if they are not interested in Mormonism they move onto the next target"
Isn't that all of life works? If a person isn't interested in something you don't keep shoving it down their throats? What's funny is the applause that that sound bite got RFM.
What strikes me the most, again, is the arrogance of this man. I find the LDS Temple one of my most precious places on earth to visit and yet he admitted he could never feel to purpose of the temple. This tells me, his demons began early on. He thinks the LDS church is false and admits he's completely agnostic.
His issue is not with The Book of Mormon, it's with God.
It was Christ who first declared in John Ch 10, one shperherd one fold NOT Jospeh Smith in 1820.
RFM has one goal and one goal only which is to tear down. He can't observe or admit that there have been hundreds of thousands of fartiful LDS members (if not millions) who have lived on this planet, who are much more learned and smarter than him that know the LDS church is the one true restored gospel on this earth today.
So how dare he RANT on "how to stay mormon" when his whole rant is terribly flawed.
Some of the questions McCraney asked were actually like 10 questions in 1 lol.
I think he chose to give wide berth to responses. Extremely generous to both sides. Bravo, Brother Shawn.
You're right. It was frustrating. I would have prefer more concise questions with shorter responses. Long questions with buffet answers were not effective.
Like Walt Whitman said, "my words nothing. The message everything."
@@shawnaaronmccraney Tough job, not doubt.
Watched the whole debate.
First of all: stellar moderator. Very fair and situated between both positions.
I've read the comments and am appalled at how many people don't know what ad hominem is. Kwaku was simply holding RFM to his own standard. This is a tactic that I call "holding up a mirror". When RFM would express phony umbrage, Kwaku would say "Oh really? That's your standard is it? What about when you said/did. . ." and proceeded to expose the hypocrisy. This is one thing I loved about pres Trump. He'd mirror the very behavior used against him, and his attackers would gasp and harrumph upon receiving the very treatment they dish out. People who are accustomed to attacking without receiving reprisals tend to get uppity when their victims throw it right back at them. Sadly, they're usually blind to the irony.
I thought this was going to be a debate. Instead, I got fallacious appeals to emotion, moralizing, and sermonizing from the Mormons. Disappointing.
You sound jealous Dan. Also, you accidentally copied and pasted the same criticism you’ve given every person that ever disagreed with you… these computer keyboards are a lot tougher than typewriters aren’t they?
@@WARDRADIO That's the best you can do? More ad hominem. Sad.
@@danvogel6802 I hope you can at least agree we answered the questions asked? I don’t think fallacious appeals to emotion, moralizing, or sermonizing properly characterizes our responses. We were asked for our personal thoughts and reasons multiple times, not for documents and evidence. If we had been, perhaps the debate would have been more to your liking. I actually tried to address this by asking to adjust the structure to be for or against certain resolutions so that we could get more deeply into specific topics, but RFM said I was just trying to monkey with things.
In the end, I’m grateful for the conversation Shawn started here. I think it’s actually really productive. It certainly wasn’t a traditional debate, so I understand the disappointment if that’s what you were looking for coming into this, but I think it was refreshing. Perhaps another time we can have a more traditional debate where we aren’t asked for our personal thoughts and feeling about things, and then we can have a more direct conversation about truth claims and specific points of history.
@@bradwitbeck Thanks for that clarification.
Did you expect this to be of any real substance, Dan? This was a foolish idea from the start. The second these attention whores showed up in vests, I knew this was going to be a farce, and it was.
I love how the 3rd mormon guy "survived prop 8" as a straight white guy 🙃
This was unreal. YOU survived prop 8? Prop 8 was a disgusting, propaganda filled movement that was trying to legally disenfranchise gay people whether they be in the church or not. If you supported it, you are a bigot. People left bad yelp reviews? That’s being “brutalized”? LOOK AT WHAT YOUR OWN FUCKING CHURCH IS DOING. I hope any business where the leaders supported prop 8 went under. I don’t want bigots like that, willing to go the state and federal level to disenfranchise their existence, in my community, period.
@@pastluck you shouldn't think so black and white. That's how Mormons think
@@pastluck The Mormons were just the hired hand on prop 8.
Gays have ALL of the cultural (and now governmental) support. Standing up against gay marriage was brave then and it's even more brave now. Being gay isn't brave. It's celebrated.
Yeah, he said that he had to help clean up after the Prop 8 protests, while not saying that the church's position on that issue contributed to the reasons for the protests in the first place. And the church's stance on the issue lost the debate.
RFM admitting that he doesn't give a crap who he destroys was the climax
Yeah… I was stunned he said that out loud. Anti-Mormons do not refute scripture but fulfill it, and he literally fulfilled the exact phraseology of CAIN when he slew Anel.
Just because RFM doesn’t give them the answer doesn’t mean he doesn’t care. I don’t think he articulated it as well as he could have but I think the point of coming out of Mormonism is to not have some other person tell you the path to take but that you get to figure out and decide what path to take.
When you’ve been told your whole life that this “one prophet of god” has all the answers only to find out they don’t, it makes sense then to follow your own path and recognize there really are no prophets but each person needs to do their own journey. RFM. Is setting out the facts as he sees them and people can decide if they agree or disagree. But I think we need to get away from this idea that there is “only one” right way for people to live. It’s a difficult exercise when you’re taught in Mormonism that’s how life is.
Cardon, you were awesome. Srsly. All 3 of you were excellent. Half way thru you saw the crazy come thru RFM. Underneath, he's just fighting against a romanticized Hollywoodian church that doesn't exist. You three did great. I was nervous but you did great. Hostile opponent, hostile moderator, hostile crowd, and you nailed it. Don't you dare reign Kwaku in. He needs to be the guns. Loved it. You entered the lions den and slew the lion.
@@CJ-oc2ff I don't think anyone said that the Prophet has all the answers including the prophets. He is guided by God but he's still just a normal person. Anyone that believes otherwise is lying to themself.
@@danascully7358 So was the prophet guided by God when they put forth the policy of exclusion and then again by rescinding that policy only 3 years later after they lost thousands of members by resignation and several other of our LGBT brothers and sisters by suicide?
The question is really what answers does the prophet today have? Other than minor policy changes and the huge policy of exclusion debacle there hasn't been a single new revelation in the church in over 100 years. But again they act like they do know all the answers. I was taught in primary, "Follow the prophet, follow the prophet, he knows the way!"
Kwaku saying homosexuality marriage will be blessed in the eternal state is wild. Mormonism is changing drastically.
Look at him... it's easy to understand why he's making such a wild claim.
I didn’t know about the sealing of brotherhoods, this is my first time hearing and that’s really cool.
None of you 5 I can’t not respect and Love. You’re amazing.
One of the biggest problems is that the immaturity of certain members and non members is usually the loudest and gets the most attention the fastest and this immaturity says " why aren't things going the way I want them to and why did this happen this way!?" RFM is giving that immaturity a voice and saying that that immaturity is actually right when clearly it isn't.
“Mormonism is truth; and every man who embraces it feels himself at liberty to embrace every truth…. The first and fundamental principle of our holy religion is, that we believe that we have a right to embrace all, and every item of truth, without limitation or without being circumscribed.” - Joseph Smith.
“Let’s go shag some teenagers!”
- Joseph Smith
Joseph Smith was a false prophet. Paul warned us of this. Salvation is through Christ alone.
@@theouterplanet Joseph pointed people to Christ. Joseph Smith taught salvation comes from Christ alone.
@@brotherricky4493 lol what 😂
@@brotherricky4493 There you go, Rick. Projecting yourself on others, again.
You guys did an incredible job. Cardon's "not my brother's keeper" statement was extremely powerful.
Every time I see Kwaku speak I just can’t believe how vile he is. The ad hominem, the holier than thou judgement, the baseless accusations and rumors, the gaslighting…he’s beyond the pale. It’s embarrassing and venomous. I don’t even want Kwaku to “wake up” and leave the church. I just hope he can take a step back and see everyone’s common humanity and act accordingly.
Is almost like RFM and all the antis
@@legacy756 what the??
@@legacy756 😂😂😂
His personality is different... probably from his polygamy family 😂🫣 after watching him on a few episodes he is growing on me and seems like a good dude
You are all just speaking fancy English😅. The Book of Mormon is true, and if ultimately anyone was deceived, at least they've been taught that they can only be saved by Christ's atonement.
This debate was actually quite entertaining and interesting. Overall, both sides did great job representing themselves. Props to all 4 and the moderator.
My concerns for the MMs:
Being skeptical of extraordinary claims is not cynicism. Cynicism is toxic, agreed. Skepticism is foundational to agency, knowledge and protection against believing in false things (ie magic.) Anyone who suggests you doubt your conscience and reason (aka your doubts) - beware.
Agnostics and atheists are not more sad or immoral. Saying so is a fragile, false fear tactic. Ask the google and see what the data has to say on the topic. My agnostic life as a devoted husband and father and friend also says otherwise.
For RFM:
When people are faced with disturbing truths about their belief system and leave it, they often do need to reconstruct a healthy, new world view. Though it isn’t RFM’s responsibility to provide this, acknowledging the importance and highlighting some resources would have been helpful.
Though he did make me laugh out loud many times, the ‘don’t drop the soap’ joke was poor taste and should be apologized for, IMO.
I like the comment that we should know European history. I know European history very well, including the part of European history where people were killed by the christian church if they didn’t leave their cultural/native religion behind and convert to christianity.
People don’t realize that by embracing Christianity, they were also embracing the pagan Canaanite deity Yahweh, who is a jealous god.
So when I was in the church I was always taught about the urim and thummim, never the stone in the hat. I’m confused.
That’s because they didnt really openly acknowledge the seer stone until more recently. Despite having it in their possession the entire time.
@@CJ-oc2ff makes no sense :[
@@Mike_Rottchburns You're right, it doesn't make sense. That's why a lot of people are questioning the church, because there is so much stuff even beyond the seer stone issue that absolutely doesn't make sense.
I went to 4 years of seminary and never once was a seer stone mentioned. The church hid it until it couldn’t hide the truth any longer, because a seer stone in a hat is absurd and embarrassing.
Just one of the many verifiable lies I was taught growing up.
Here is a hypothetical. The prophet comes out with a revelation that now the LDS is now pro choice. That would blow my mind.
Ok I’m going to be honest. I don’t really understand why the seer stone is such a big problem for some people. Many people say that the church taught them that Joseph Smith used the Urim and Thummim and then they found out later in their life that it was a seer stone. Isn’t that basically saying, “I thought Joseph Smith translated the plates with those magic rocks not a different magic rock, my testimony is destroyed.” I mean the history and doctrine of Mormonism is angels, visitations from God, ancient peoples, polygamy, Book of Mormon, visitations from god, kolob, ancient prophets, second coming of Christ, speaking in tongues, baptisms for the dead, gold plates from an extinct people, 14 year prophet guy, Adam and Eve, God is a man, Garden of Eden in Missouri, Noah and the Ark, Ark of the Covenant, Temples, Prophets in our day speaking for God, 3 degrees of heaven, a Holy Ghost that talks to people, a man that came back from the dead(Jesus Christ) People becoming Gods, People on different planets, ancient mesoamerican Christian Indians, A man that died for your sins, and you’re telling me that all that stuff you knew was fine until you found out that J.S. used a different magic rock than the one you thought he used? It’s not like the church has been teaching pure logical science the whole time and then suddenly said one weird thing. It seems like a small misunderstood detail rather than some big thing.
I'll go from personal experience in regards to this. At 14, I read D&C 77 (Q&A with the Lord about things in Revelation) and a thought came to mind "What if I could do this?" Not revelation for the whole Church or anything, but personal revelation using the Q & A format. I put pen-to-paper and wrote out a deep, genuine question that I had for him. I then cleared my mind and started writing the response (a free-writing technique). It was a little crude in response, my terminology and phrasing being mixed-in, but I saw a response that, when I acted on it, gave me good results.
I have refined that now, over many years (because I'm slow of learning) to a point where the words of the Lord, transmitted by the Holy Ghost, give me a more clear and proper response. I'm sure that, years from now, it'll be a lot better.
I see the same principle in action with the seer stone, Urim and Thummim, and finally, raw translation operating in the same "stepping-stone" manner.
Man, so much to comment on this video! RFM's last remark about, "if you want to stay in the church, don't study," got me thinking: Don Bradley could've DESTROYED this guy during the debate!
Don Bradley knows history but makes a lot of assumptions. He’s not serious
@@advocate7643 I disagree. I would say he's very serious, so serious in fact that he is a trusted source for interviews, writing books, giving lectures, etc.
@@jacobbuzan374I know, I’ve read his stuff. His rationale is a joke. For example, he thinks that because JS married women while they were pregnant that’s proof that he didn’t have sex with them. He takes facts and makes up assumptions. He doesn’t know logic.
Dang the guy on the far right of the 3, could be one of the next apostles. Amazing. So passionate and so much amazing zeal.
Sorry, what is the point of the vests?
Thank you Midnight Mormons, you inspire and uplift and I am very grateful to you.
No offense to Kwaku and Brad, but Cardon gave the best performance in this debate. He had some shining moments.
None taken! I think Cardon did fantastically :)
I smoke weed daily (spinal injury), drop F bombs on a regular basis, and am basically far from perfect. Having said this, I do not want to live in an echo chamber and have a plethora of respect for anyone willing to be in the arena and from my perspective (I am not in any camp), the crew from MM did an excellent job working towards coexistence. Peace & Love!
✌🏼☮️
Brad is too nice. RFM is so boring. The church hiding stuff is such a boring talking point. You use church publications to say they hide the material.
Okay so that was a lot to unpack and I don’t have the time here to do it all but one day I may revisit this to give my full thoughts but I want to leave some of mine here now
1: I loved that positive ending
2: Brad thank you for being a voice of moderation, Kwaku and Cardon I love you two to death and I think you’re both great faithful people but I think both of you can do with learning from brads humility; the most productive conversations on this stage were when you both were willing to acknowledge the goodness in the other.
3: RFM is a very eloquent speaker and I have a respect for him even if I don’t agree with him on 99.99% of things. That’s okay.
4: theirs so much more to some these topics that I was disappointed to see not addressed by the midnight Mormons crew but I hope you will continue to discuss those topics faithfully in separate podcasts.
5: I just want to say this which I think helps summarize the churches standing on a LOT of things; the church’s culture and a lot of the horrible things that RFM experienced is due to toxic tribalism culture which in my opinion is a huge problem in the church and a huge problem with human nature. It’s inexcusable and wrong but not acknowledging that those things come with being human is disingenuous. I am more than willing to criticize and mournfuly look at some of the things that some church leaders have done; but that does not take away my personal experience and lived experience of deep study of the four standard works of the gospel has taught me: the church is true, the Book of Mormon is the word of God along with the Bible. That Jesus is the great Yahweh and ONLY THROUGH HIM CAN WE BE SAVED. My testimony ultimately is in Jesus and his willingness to work with broken and messy humans. Like Peter who denied him, like Nathan the prophet who authorized a temple without permission. Like David who was lustful, like the countless examples of prophets and us as infants in this mortal experience are. Jesus is my king. I will always tell you otherwise when people say that the church is not about building a relationship with Christ. I will tell you that unfortunately far too many members treat it as the church saves but I will tell that in my 4 year deep study into doctrine and scripture is that this is a huge mis-step from the church as a whole that needs to change and that I fight to change every single day. We need to stop trying to live up to God and instead see how he (Jesus as a member of the Godhead is God) descended below us. Because he already loves us. He loves and knows you wherever you are. And after we have accepted his love then repentance and change comes as a result of our relationship to Yeshua of Nazareth and our acceptance of his ability to help us grow and change. He isn’t waiting for you to change, he loved you before, during, after and everything in between your progression. I’ll probably get blasted in the replies, that’s the nature of these opposing sides debating and sharing a perspective on that subject. In conclusion, please midnight Mormons as your biggest fan take a look inward and try to be more humble; but KEEP DEFENDING THE FAITH. This gospel is true. I know it and love it. Thank you all for being who you all are. Kwaku’s firery temperament is good when channeled correctly, Cardon’s genuine care and openness of intellect is powerful and Brad you are my inspiration. Please keep doing the good that you do. But also be willing to repent, and change for the better; that’s all have a great night and I can’t wait to see what else is coming 🤗 El-shaddai bless and Good night. ❤️
I disagree with your self sustaining as their biggest fan, I already have taken on that mantle for myself. Great analysis.
@@alatterdaysaintonfire5643 🤣 We will have to fight for the title ;)
@@nathanh.9767 🤣
@@nathanh.9767 I challenge you to a binge watch of Midnight Mormon s
I love this reply so much. Apart from beautifully expressing your beliefs, you also spoke from the heart to these guys. I am on the other side of the fence on a lot of these issues, but I have 100% respect for faithful members like these guys who are sincerely trying their best to express their humanity as best as they can. In the end that is the best any of us can do.
RFM made some super rude and blasphemous statements about church history, temples, and the prophet, and then as soon as Kwaku and the others started to bring the same energy, RFM started interrupting and getting aggressive. RFM, if you don’t like the heat, get out of the kitchen.
🎯
The LDS church is a false church. "Pray about it to know if it's true", that's deception 101.
This was the very first “Mormon” content I ever saw on RUclips and the first part where Midnight Mormons appealed to spirituality, rather than empirical evidence, had me HOOKED. Thank you for sharing
Almost every religion appeals to spirituality or emotions. An Evangelical Christian can bear you his testimony that his brand of Christianity is the correct one, just as you can that Mormonism is the true one. A Scientologist or a Jehovah's Witness can do the same thing. I've heard fundamentalist Mormon polygamists bear their testimonies that their version of Mormonism is the "one true" one. That being the case, it's far more rational to consider the actual facts of religious claims and premises, rather than relying on "spirituality" or emotional feelings.
@@randyjordan5521 agreed that the appeal to spirituality isn’t unique. However, appealing to spirituality rather than empiricism or rationalism is not common in the Latter-Day Saint debate space-that’s what caught my attention. Your claim about an epistemology being “far more rational to consider the actual facts” remains to be seen but seems like it’s a common opinion
@@shibainferno If you don't live your life based on facts, you aren't rational.
@@randyjordan5521 that’s gonna depend on how one defines “facts” and “rational”. Language is fun
@@shibainferno LOL. Facts are facts. Believing in fantasies is irrational.
I think this really allowed everyone to open up and expose what they truly believe. Some beliefs were heartwarming and sweet while others were cringeworthy and bitter. I was on the edge of my seat the WHOLE TIME. Great entertainment.
My favorite quote was the description of a lack of belief or belief in nothing aka Nihilism being "scorched f*cking earth".
So many emotions. I'll probably watch it again.
Yeah it's very entertaining
it was entertaining I suppose, but sharing what you believe isn't the purpose of a debate; that's for testimony meetings. Debates are to share WHY you think your position is the correct one, and I think the Midnight Mormons completely failed on that front. Their arguments all seemed to boil down to hope. If you disagree with that assessment, let me know what you think was their best argument explaining who one should conclude the church is true.
@@kenhilker2507 anyway the Restored gospel is true so
@@legacy756 can you elaborate for me... What does that phrase mean to you?
@@kenhilker2507 I'll have to watch it again and get back to you. Honestly, I didn't watch it to be convinced, rather to see how it would all go down. It was a spectacular show.
@147 min. When RFM said Kwaku's question was "boring" about RFM's meaning of "I know," it was the BEST and MOST PROVOCATIVE question of the show. RFM said he would answer, but never did.
I agree. Most of the Mormon community at large would characterize “know” by the classic definition - 100% knowledge of a fact. There may be some nuance for a select few, but an 8 year old bearing his testimony is not defining it as “hope”.
All truth can be circumscribed into one great whole. Truth is truth. When you say “I know,” you are claiming complete understanding of a part of that universal truth. There is less nuance with “I know” than he claims there is. If you hope or believe, those words are available to you.
@Jon Bystrom 1:54:30 he throws a look of accusation at Kwaku when he talks about someone committing suicide because "they know" something. It's boring and useless when we're talking about testimony meeting, but the crux of his argument here hinges on the definition of "know".
Redefining "Knowing" as "not knowing for sure" is a perfect example of "doublespeak." Redefining words in this way, to mean the opposite of their original meaning, is a very authoritarian approach. To know something is ALL IN. We don't say we know when we don't know. Who does that? How many times have I heard the phrase "I know with every fiber of my being?" Many, many, many... I don't suppose that when they say that they mean they don't know for certain. I'm going to stick with my previous understanding in that when a person says "they know" they mean "they know." Otherwise, I'll go freaking crazy.
Don't be silly. Saying "I know" is different than "I believe". Are you really making this argument?
The fact is, no body “knows” what’s gonna happen after we die. My family lost our sister in year 2000. She was killed in a tragic boating accident caused by a church youth activity. Her party consisted of her friends, they were all celebrating their high school graduation. The party that crashed into her boat was an lds youth event. This started a lawsuit against the church. We would have won the case had the church lawyers not approached us and told us that none of us boys would be able to serve missions if the case was carried out. Because of my moms very strong belief in seeing her daughter again and the importance of us kids serving missions the case was dropped. We received no help from the church, we never went to counseling because the common perception was shrinks are quacks and we’ll be fine through the teachings of the gospel. It was always “we don’t know the answers or why they did this but we’ll know after we die” and we’ll see her again if we just stay strong to our covenants. I gave my life to the church for 25 years, my money my time. I served a mission when I was 23. I didn’t have to but I felt that that’s what god would want me to do and there was this lawsuit that happened so I could go so I better go or my sisters death would be in vain. It was not hard to come to conclusion that the church was not true. When I gave everything to the church yet they gave nothing in return but an apology from the president bishop. We were threatened and taken advantage of because the church wanted to protect their reputation and precious money. The church is not a helpful organization and when I started studying the history and things hidden by the church it was so easy for it all to fall apart. The book of Abraham does not explain the after life and the degrees of glory. The church uses the name of Jesus in vain to teach about concepts that no one can answer. Sure it’s a nice thought to believe life will happen after we die but who can honestly say they “know” that will happen. When you lose someone you want to see them so badly the notion that you can see them again is so tempting. My mother cast away her own children in order to hold on to her beliefs. I was judged because i was able to use logic and sense to see a different side. This kwaku character is very immature and the words he says is very ignorant, it all reminds me of my mom and how tightly she will hold on to what she believe and will say whatever she need to defend her beliefs to hold on to her dead daughter even though her living kids have been damaged by the organization that she so strongly believes. This is an extreme case but it is the fruits of the church. I see this happening more and more the church will only continue to damage and harm peoples lives in a insidious way not intentionally but just from its doctrines and culture. The fruits of the church are pain, sorrow, lies, manipulation, guilt, fear, confusion and death.
I don't know 100% for sure what happens after we die. I KNOW 100% for sure what happened when I stopped living my life for me and started truly living by dedicating my every breath to the cause of Jesus Christ.
And, I am not that special.
When you devote yourself to serving others instead of serving yourself, everything will change for you, just as it has for me and many others.
The message of Jesus is that the Kingdom is here and NOW, for those who wish to partake of it.
So stop judging all around you and let yourself be judged by Jesus. To the extent that you stop living your life and start living a life like his, you will be utterly transformed. You will be born again, of the Spirit. And you will have no fear or concern for a next life because you will be too busy enjoying this life, in Jesus Christ.
Damn, that is a sad and crazy experience...I hope you're doing well these days!! 💙
Thank you for sharing your tragic story.
The church is no more than a Luciferian cult.
This proves it’s not a church but a corporation and is main goal is money and power
My condolences that you lost your sister.
It sounds like this is the crux of what happened:
" We received no help from the church, we never went to counseling because the common perception was shrinks are quacks and we’ll be fine through the teachings of the gospel"
Who gave the counsel that going to a counselor would be unhelpful? Also, what help were you expecting in regards to the Church?
Lastly, why do you feel that your mom cast you away in holding on to her beliefs?
This debate means so much to me. I see something that reminds me of something I know. It’s hard to share and explain with others who don’t but when you see the MM guy on the far right talking, you can see someone who has gone through it and still painstakingly stands and fights while you see the RFM guy just waiting to sink his teeth in. Lol this isn’t easy to explain, but the MM guy is me and the RFM guy is my ex landlord, a Protestant pastor who presumed to assert what he believed was his authority over me and my life and condescend to me and guilt trip me. That was a battle. As his tenant it was extremely uncomfortably but I stood my shaky ground none the less. I got out of there as well, but there is a certain loneliness that can set in when a grown man stands before and presumes to assert his dominance. I knew I was right though. This guy was trying to rule me and bully me but I knew better than to take it because God has given us all agency and there is no way in heck that it is mandatory to take what someone is dishing out. That was a pivotal moment in my life when I told him that he didn’t have that kind of authority over me. He didn’t know what to say.
Dude. This is an awesome story. Thank you for sharing. I'm so glad you stood up to him. Get it bro. Don't let bullies like RFM push you around.
@@WARDRADIO thank you guys so much! You are such an inspiration and force for good. Thank you!!!
I don’t think that Christ would intimidate people into belief, so don’t listen to people like that. I don’t believe in believing someone just because they have a big name or big credentials.
RFM you made me so thankful I am a Member of the Church of Jesus Christ, if this is what its like being an apostate I'll stay where I am.
According to that logic, I’m curious how you could look at someone like kwaku and think the church is good for people
Gaynor Wells, you mad me so thankful I am no longer a member with your comment. Why is personal insult so often the first refuge of the those who constantly prattle on about being Christlike?
@@wesanderikaoneal9930 Kwaku is a young angsty convert. Cut him some slack.
@@wesanderikaoneal9930 Not all of the Lord's champions are prophets. Their just great warriors (like Teacum) who are the young men at the gates who do not tolerate attacks against the people they love. So as far as I'm concerned, Kwaku rocks the socks off of the enemies of the faith. Go get em Kwaku.
@@khemingw I would assume that, unless god is an awful being, he would want more level-headed/compassionate types to defend his “faith”
Less personal attacks and more listening/understanding
It seems like there is one jounalist and 3 apologists talking to each other.
Wow I gained my testimony of the Book of Mormon the same day Brad! Same thing happened to me too! I put off the challenge until that day too and gained my testimony as I read Ether 12.
That’s so awesome :D
I appreciate Brad’s clear cut answer to the Plural Marriage question. They follow mainstream interpretation so, wasn’t expecting a black & white response.
Kwaku: my mom had to flee a Polygamist cult
Also Kwaku: But hey, maybe Polygamy isn't that bad, right? You don't know unless you've lived it.
Uh, go ask your Mom why she fled if it was that great
It wasn’t polygamy she escaped from, it was the cult that had polygamy in it. 2 different things.
@@meetmeatmorgans27 The first 7 prophets of mormonism taught that Polygamy is the way of heaven and monogamy is evil. Look it up. The FLDS believes that these prophets were telling the truth and continued polygamy. It is always funny when mormons think their church is anything like the original. The original mormonism was all lot like the FLDS church, considering they kept more of the original principles. And Joseph Smith was a lot closer to Warren Jeffs than he was to Russell M Nelson.
@@CrustyRusty366 Now that's a question I can get behind...is Joseph Smith closer to Warren Jeffs or Russell M. Love it.
Extension if Kwaku's logic... you don't know what murder is about if you've never done it, so yeah.
@@CrustyRusty366 I’ve looked it up, no such teachings exist beside maybe some one-off statements by individuals.
What a shame that the Mormons could not put up a united front.
One says marriage extends to same sex couples, another says he is proud of his polygamous roots.
The other says it is a truly weird flaw that needs to be repented of.
by the denominations of one another, when that truth is clearly demonstrated to our minds, and we have the highest degree of evidence of the same.
This is how truth is discovered and then Christ testifies of it himself with the holy ghost.
“[If the] Presbyterians [have] any truth. embrace that. [Same for the] Baptist. Methodist &c. get all the good in the world. [and you will] come out a pure Follower of Christ. - Joseph Smith.
We Need to be ready to believe all true principles that exist, as they are made manifest from time to time. And True, If the Prophet of Jesus Christ were to reveal unto us Further Truth’s in other Sec’s. We should be ready to believe and try and understand it further in prayer and test the fruits of it wether one lives more with Christ like love in mind.
This is so laughable. If someone leaves any other religion and joins Mormonism we use word like strong and courageous. But that is a one way street. If they learn things about Mormonism or feel they receive answers from god we tell they are wrong perhaps even weak
While the topic of JS's rock came up a few times, the issue with it never did because the questions were overly complex and sloppy. The key point is that JS's seer stone was also his peep stone he used to go treasure seeking for money; never finding anything. Also, while the interpreters were supposedly built for JS to translate, instead JS uses his peep stone that he had dug out of a well. The questions were sloppy.
The questions were super sloppy and often bias (towards either side). As I expected, this could have gone much better if an independent moderator was used, and another format was used.
I still enjoyed it, but I had much higher hopes.
@@bipolarrambling242 it’s not biased to the other side just because the reality disclosed in the question doesn’t match the narrative you’ve been used to hearing.
@@Sayheybrother8 There shouldn't be bias in the questions from any angle. Moderators are impartial, and their questions should reflect that.
I think the age difference is key here. I understand how RFM is upset that he felt mislead by the church over B.O.M. origin story and how Cardon et al are not. The age of the internet has completely changed how the church has had to handle these problems.
@@jamesvaughn7389 I suggest their value systems are different. The MM's are focused on spiritual tribalism while RFM the reality of the truth claims. Beyond Kwaku's repeated secular fear mongering Cardon repeatedly referred to his brother's keeper, meaning spiritual keeper. That is what MM values most. You can't be fully honest when trying to keep people in the Church, which we saw on full display. RFM isn't burdened with that same responsibility, but instead takes an exploratory approach.
I really enjoyed this debate. I’m a faithful member of the Church and I feel like I’ve come across and digested basically all of the commonest attacks against the Church. I find the truth claims of the church more compelling than the counter arguments in general. I will say that it was great to hear someone come up with their most important attacks, or what they feel is most persuasive. What stood out to me most was what RFM said about not feeling any responsibility to provide a “so now what” for those who leave Christianity, or even theism. It really is scorched earth. Anyway, loved the debate and the moderator did an excellent job. So many good arguments for and against were presented.
Thank you! We're glad you liked it!
The church owns several universities with qualified educators and historians to defend the truth claims and history of the church, and these amateur apologists are the only ones with the guts and conviction to attempt to defend?
I thought their arguments were far less convincing on the topics… but I give them credit for being willing to do the debate the actual (more qualified) Mormon historians and apologists are not willing to do.
They aren't paid to do that and it's not their thing. They have lives, families and other things they are doing. Also, I think the brethren learned long ago, arguing isn't going to get anyone anywhere, so why do it? These guys do it for fun.
@@danascully7358 arguing can get people everywhere, you just have to think whether it’s a valid argument and whether you have the right words for it :D
That's all the church seems to say now, and it's all I basically heard from MM: “Tell other people what you FEEL.” (Not the logical reasons you believe. Because sorry - there aren't any.) At least that's what I've experienced in my studies.
@@Mike_Rottchburns Amen, Dana Scully!
@@danascully7358 You use arguing in a very harsh manner. I doesn't have to be fighting. Rather dialogue not debate would be better. If individuals in "dialogue" mode would avoid straw-man and instead build steel-man statements of the person in dialogue I think we might develop more understanding and empathy for each other.
Ward radio made the mistake of equally yoking themselves, as Paul says, with the unbelievers!
Will that body armor be coming out in Temple white?
Another point is "pray about it".
No, we do not pray about something that God has already told us.
We certainly do not rely on FEELINGS.
Remember, God warns us that the heart is deceitful and wicked.
The gentleman said he prayed and had an undeniable conviction of the Holy Spirit.
Well, what about me? I prayed and had an undeniable conviction of the Holy Spirit that joseph smith was not a prophet of God and that the mormon church is not the true church.
Since you have no idea HOW i prayed, or what any AGENDA or AIM was, you cannot say I did not pray with a sincere and contrite spirit.
So, why is YOUR testimony true and mine false?
If God says there is one God, period, and then joseph smith comes along and says no, there are many Gods ( deities ) and you can become a God ( not "like God", but "God", deity. ) then we don't have to pray about that.
I have never prayed over my bible. Mormons are idiots
Just got home after attending this. Kwaku, Brad, and Cardon all gave great testimonies to the Love that is in Jesus Christ. Shawn did a great job of hosting and moderating. We will keep RFM in our prayers as he clearly has gone through terrible trauma at some time with the Church.
I just can’t get passed the evidence that shows Joseph Smith had a number of child brides
Honest question for you. Do you believe other people can have spiritual or emotional experiences outside mormonism. I will guess your answer is yes. Do you believe these experiences always have to do with the BOM, Jesus, or anything Christianity related? I will guess your answer is no. Could believers in Islam have spiritual experiences related to Allah? Could Egyptians, Greeks, and Romans have spiritual or emotional experiences relating to their beliefs in Osiris, Zeus, or Jupiter? I don't know what your answer will be. The point that i am trying to make is that the spirit most likely does not have anything to do with truth and certainly does not testify of one uniform truth in the world. Maybe it could be and guide to each individual personally? But that would imply that all the other religions and Gods are also true and real. The spirit, or emotional moments when we watch movies, or hear sad or heroic stories, should just be appreciated for what it is. In my opinion, it is silly to attach uniform world and universal truth to emotional experiences. And people who say they don't know what is going to happen after death, are just being more honest than you. Don't pretend to know because you an emotional experience. Sure, accept it as your personal truth, but limit it to that.
Please stop perpetuating this lie. You've been programmed to believe that anyone who leaves this organization does so because of trauma or sin. This simply isn't the case. Many people simply can't live a life that isn't based on reason, evidence, and rational thought.
Sadly Kwaku El is immature and appears quite cocky, only due to his age and experience, that he goes on the offense with total attack tactics and generalities. He seems militant and very, very unbending and closed minded and rather uninformed, also due to his age I'm guessing. He has done nothing for me to want to become active again. He's on his phone constantly and just his constant response of LOL is of his age. Cardon Ellis and Brad Witbeck seem to have well thought out things to say and they seem to be truly converted to the gospel. I appreciated hearing what they had to say. By the way, there is a great deal of proven sexual abuse that has taken place in the LSD church and even at the MTC. There have been many polices changed within the church in order to protect people, especially children, from more abuses. Two teachers in primary classes, Sunday School classes, changes in the way the endowment is done in the temple. As a survivor of sexual abuse, not done in the church or by church leaders, I appreciate these changes and moderations.
Speaking of RFM's biggest take-a-way - Here's an idea for you guys to talk on an upcoming podcast - "am i my brother's keeper?" Followed by in-depth discussions with questions such as "why should I care what anyone else does or believe in?" or "are we to do only what's right for us and forget everyone else?". 99 and 1. Love thy neighbor as thyself. When thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren. "I'm not responsible for others". Family. Secular and non-secular families talk about "family" and caring for each other, but why can't (or don't) show that to others? Lots of juicy stuff in that possible podcast.
I'm an atheist and I'd love to have this discussion (not on a podcast though 🤣)
RFM is dripping with contempt. What an awful state to be in.
Seems like a jolly dude to me.
THANK GOD!!!
some else who calls it "row sham bo!" 😂 Instead of 'rock paper scissors"!!!!
for the last few years of my life i thought i was crazy 😆😂😂😂✌️
I'm a Gen Xer, seeing this debate is fascinating. I grew up in the church, came of age in the 80s. Now in my 50s watching these two generations debate church history, BofM, doctrine, I see the millennials as secular yet defending the old church by giving them a pass. I am shocked and somewhat disgusted. I accepted everything I was told, no questions asked. Now I find out the LDS Church lied and withheld damaging things. Yet this younger generation is just saying its all ok? Hell no, I was lied to and cannot reconcile anything.
1:46:20 Good point of Kwaku about precision in language. Spanish has two different words for "know" for different senses of the word (e.g. to know a person vs to know information or to know how to do something etc.)
Edit: And no, epistemology, the study of how we know what we know and what that means, isn't "boring". To say so demonstrates intellectual laziness.
Lazy learner. Bednar was right.
If this is what a faithful mormon looks like, I wouldn’t want to be one. They are snarky and offensive, unlike any other Mormon I’ve ever known.
I have a lot of thoughts. I don’t want to type it all but I’ll just say that this is probably my favorite debate in regards to the church.
Pretty well said. Back and forth topical openness is mind-cleansing fresh air, whether it's coming from north or south.
I agree. They all did a great job.
The only part I didn’t like was when ‘Kwakiutl said all the vitriol was coming from your side. Brother that goes both ways. He exhibited it while accusing them of it.
@@swaneespeedramsey6080 We (my side) may grant Kwaku's vitriol since you appear to grant Corbin's vitriol. Bro. Shawn attained detente from MM, but RFM refused pause. Bummer for goodness, huh?
Dig deeper. This was a bush league debate.
26:15'ish....As a white man, I thoroughly enjoyed Kwaku telling RFM that he doesn't know European history
The assertion that RFM has a responsibility to provide an alternative is nonsense. If he knew of a fraudulent MLM would he be responsible for creating a new MLM before he could warn people of the fraud? No. If RFM was aware of a dishonest car dealer would he have to open a dealership before he could warn people? No. RFM has no responsibility to start a church as an alternative to the false Mormon church.
"Difficult things to deal with in the Church"..... Those "difficult things" ARE EXISTENTIAL ISSUES about the formation, foundation, and founding of The Church. IF THESE THINGS ARE TRUE, THEN THAT CAUSES LEGITIMATE QUESTION ABOUT ALL OF IT.....ALL OF IT. And those are legitimate questions.
Cardon this is the BEST I have ever heard from you!!!! (which is a compliment because I love your guys show)
THANK YOU! Thank you for being vulnerable and at 2:00 hours through the rest of that comment! ♥️ I was like “YES!!! Yes, that is everything anyone needs to know about us!” It’s also the best rebuttal ever because for that moment it was very clear the spirit was guiding you! Nothing speaks louder than that!!!
Great debate from you guys and it does make me want to delve deeper into our history and grow my testimony!! Love you guys!!!
P.S
Thanks for the consistent content!!!
Bless your little naive heart.
@@christianuniversalist why would you even say something like that? What is the point?
@@bradwitbeck That she's naive?
So why dod they sustain the BOM as the best book on earth to get one closer to God?
@@stelladavis7832 yeah, what does condescendingly calling someone naive accomplish? And I don't think I understand your question. Could you clarify?
I’m cringing with those bullet proof vests lol. I love it
So glad this happened. Hope for more in the future!!
I've watched dozens of religious debates. This was by far the worst. I felt real hatred here, and had to turn it off mid way. I think anti-mormons really hate the Church - deeply - to the point of violence.
In my view one of the most dangerous things in the world is one-sidedness, because usually that means that real and authentic experiences of others get overseen... I know people who's lifes were saved by discovering their faith in the Church of Jesus Christ of latter day Saints, and I have seen the opposite happening.. and so that leaves the question what can be done about it? I think the answer will and should always be to take a honest look at both sides and be honest about things... Personally I dont think it would harm the church to adress the rather difficult topics, admitting that not everything every leader of the church ever did was without error.. rather the opposite, I think that it would strengthen the faith of many.. I loved how my mission president even wrote a book for us missionaries that adressed many of the things many members never heard of...
Most of all, thank you guys for doing this great work...
Cardon and Brad, it’s important to note that some of us grew up hearing and bearing testimonies that described knowing things were true beyond a shadow of a doubt or with every fiber of your being. Yes maybe the members are guilty of doing this on their own but I don’t think so. This is how we heard the brethren and our leaders talk from the pulpit. It’s great that it is changing with the newer generations but to accuse us of not knowing what the church is now is you’re acknowledgment that you don’t know what the church was for years and for a lot longer than you’ve been around. I believe that is what RFM is trying to say when you describe a church that doesn’t exist.
Nah. You can only comment on your own experience. Midnight Mormons are right, RFM and co live in another world, fighting a cartoon version of Mormonism that never existed. Add me to the camp of people who grew up in this church and never heard the stuff RFM says is ubiquitous.
@@jonahbarnes5841 you’ve never heard someone testify they know the church is true beyond a shadow of a doubt? Or with every fiber of my being? Either you haven’t been a member long or your not being completely honest. The irony
@@Sayheybrother8 that's not what he said. He said that's the ONLY acceptable answer. Wrong. His cartoon version of Mormonism doesn't exist. He must caricature the church to justify his crusade against it. Then it matches his cartoonish logic and bumpersticker philosophy
@@jonahbarnes5841 You really can't deny if people who don't believe share their doubts with other Mormons they are excommunicated. It's happen tens of thousands of times.
@@KTPurdy stop moving the goalposts. He said the Mormon Church is BUILT ON the phrase "I Know." As if doubt is unwelcome and questions are untenable. What Church did you people grow up in? Questions and doubt are fine. No one is shunned for saying: "I don't have a testimony yet." Or "I'm struggling". RFM lives in a cartoon world of his own making. This isn't handmaidens tale.
Re: Kwaku's defense of Joseph Smith's possession and use of magical talismans, contrast that to LDS church president Joseph F. Smith's 1902 statement on such things:
“One individual can not place an affliction upon another in the way that these soothsayers would have the people believe. It is a trick of satan to deceive men and women, and to draw them away from the Church and from the influence of the Spirit of God, and the power of his holy priesthood, that they may be destroyed. These peep-stone men and women are inspired by the devil, and are the real witches, if any such there be. Witchcraft, and all kindred evils, are solely the creations of the superstitious imaginations of men and women who are steeped in ignorance, and derive their power over people from the devil, and those who submit to this influence are deceived by him. Unless they repent, they will be destroyed. There is absolutely no possibility for a person who enjoys the Holy Spirit of God to even believe that such influences can have any effect upon him. The enjoyment of the Holy Spirit is absolute proof against all influences of evil; you never can obtain that Spirit by seeking diviners, and men and women who “peep and mutter.”
Now, couple that statement with this one from Joseph F. Smith's son, apostle Joseph Fielding Smith:
"While the statement has been made by some writers that the Prophet Joseph Smith used a seer stone part of the time in his translating of the record, and information points to the fact that he did have in his possession such a stone, yet there is no authentic statement in the history of the Church which states that the use of such a stone was made in that translation. The information is all hearsay, and personally, I do not believe that this stone was used for this purpose."
So, Kwaku is defending magical objects and practices that have been condemned and denied by LDS church prophets and apostles.
Brad is wearing his plate carrier a little too low. Kwaku to some extent as well. Your stomach isn't the priority target in an attack, my friends. Someone aiming from just slightly above them could probably hit the heart or lungs. Be safe guys! I'm serious.
You may have worn them today satirically/as an extreme precaution, but if the day comes when one is facing a certain danger, best to have all your ducks in a row.
Thanks for the tip! It felt like I had something about it wrong, but I was setting up some of our equipment and didn’t have time to check it. I’ll keep it in mind for next time :)
The very idea that they actually believed that they were in danger of physical harm was silly. From the inception of Mormonism, non-Mormons have been far more likely to be the victims of violence from Mormons than the other way around.
Kwaku: "Nobody understands it (polygamy) except for those in it."
Does that also mean that nobody understands Jonestown except for those who were there? Should Jim Jones also be studied through a charitable lens by outsiders?
Suicide and polygamy. Two very different things on different levels. Bad take.
@@thejorgerojas Okay, take your pick:
"Unless you've been the recipient of misogyny, you don't understand misogyny."
"Unless you've been the victim of a racist attack, you don't understand racism."
"Unless you've run for President of the U.S.A., you don't understand the President of the U.S.A."
"Unless you're circumcised, you don't understand circumcision."
"Unless you wrote this novel, you don't understand this novel."
See why this argument is fallacious? An idea/concept is not exempt from scrutiny simply because the critic hasn't personally experienced the consequences of that idea/concept.
@@thejorgerojas what the ???
A man and a man might be together…in heaven.
You lost me there Kwaku.
That’s right about where I stopped watching this. There are too many progressive ideas keep being taught by some of those on this channel, ironically enough by supposedly non-Progressives.
Not trying to be unkind, but I gotta call it as I see it. .
It has been 1,032 days since this debate and I am disappointed that we have yet to see a Cardon vs Radio Free Mormon “who will break first” dad joke competition 😔
Knew you weren't serious about this when I saw the bullet-proof vests. And Kwaku, you are not a nice person.
Yeah, had he had the nerve to call out RFM about the seriousness of it all as he comes on with that vest, and had previously made other attempts at humor.
Judge, jury, and executioner!
😂😂😂
The three of them did an amazing job for what it was. However, I don’t like what it works. I think that debating with someone who isn’t even concerned about the truth, is playing into the hands of the adversary.