A mature, thoughtful, humble and orthodox response. This serves as a good apologetic model for dealing with objections or just plain questions to our faith. Good work.
I struggled with this question for such a long time.But now i have the answer. The question is: “how is it that God can punish eternally those rebelling against him when falleness is something they were born with?” Well,you could ask that question if God didn’t provide a way to save us.But guess what,He did. God knows everything before it happens. He surely knew that man would fall. He surely knew He Himself had to pay the price. You might wonder “why did He create us if He knew we would fall?” Because He thinks it is a price worth paying. Through the sacrifice,through Jesus, He thought us love, the beauty of submission,humility,obedience. Now you are judged upon your decision to accept Jesus’s sacrifice or not. And if you reject that sacrifice,you are still judged for your sins, but you can’t say to God “i had no choice,i was born incapable to be sinless “ , because you had a choice to accept Jesus’s sacrifice. God provided a way from the beginning. And another question might come up : “What about those who lived before Christ? “ Genesis 15:6 “And he (Abraham) believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness. They were made right with God through faith as well as we are. God bless you.
I think you’re saying, if God creates us fallen, He has no right to punish us for fallen behaviors; but if He also creates a way of redemption, then He can punish. God did not create us fallen. He created us innocent. We inherited fallenness from our ancestors who fell. Those who do not receive forgiveness are not punished for not receiving Christ. They are punished for all their sins. Failing to repent and trust Christ simply adds to a long list of sins. My answer is that we may be fallen, but we freely choose each sin. We are held accountable for the individual choices, not for the overall fallenness.
There are a few things about Psalm 51 that people conveniently ignore when they use this passage as a proof text for original sin… First of all, the psalm is a poem, and poetry typically uses Hyperbolic language. Next, David says, in sin my mother conceived me… Not that he was sinfully made. Lastly, for people who like to use psalm 51 in applying to all human kind, please consider Job31:18, where Job says that he cared for widows from the womb. Be fair and apply this to all babies. David also says that God has been his God from his mothers womb. Apply this to all babies.
It isn’t a matter of culture or Americanism that we say, “that’s not fair”, but rather a matter of morality and justice and goodness that we object to something heinous that isn’t even sound biblically.
This brought to mind "all of creation are the Lord's" "he does as he pleases" and that we're living out the glory he wanted for the universe. To manifest his righteousness, lawlessness had to exist. That we even can know such things to be expressed is apart of glory as we get closer and closer to that final day of judgement. This planet and all of its life will one day fade away for an even greater glory.
You keeping saying "had to" when it comes to an all powerful being. What barriers exist for all powerful being that lawlessness had to exist? God isn't powerful enough to create a universe in which lawlessness didn't have to exist? Does lawlessness exist in heaven?
@@Andyconda77 are these questions, things you've done no research on your own? Or have you done the research and are searching for meaning to what you've already found? You know that all the questions you have can be researched with a minimum amount of effort on your part. If your just trying to be the antagonistic, I've already grown out of that part of life. I'd love to communicate, but what that is, is a destructive waste of time.
Sin is spiritual harlotry. Sin can open doors that can't be closed. Some of the repercussions of sin over time are coldness or lukewarmness towards God, spiritual blindness, spiritual deafness, spiritual drunkedness, spiritual deception, spiritual darkness, bondage, demonic oppression or possession, perversion, addiction, depression, desperation, indifference to God's rules and laws, stunted spiritual growth, weak moral compass, idolotry, love of the world, lack of wisdom, lack of control, emptiness, lack of contentment, anger, arrogance, resentment of truth, resentment or mockery of holiness, denial and blasphemy against the power of the Holy Spirit to deliver us from the bondage of sin, a hardened heart, a loss of conscience, depravity, and enmity with God.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Animals like human can steal, deceive and kill, should we condemn them for sinful acts? To sin is nature for living creatures, it has nothing to do with Adam, Eve or Satan’s temptation.
“We fell in Adam” is at least an honest way to describe the absurd doctrine that claims we deserve eternal hellfire for something we didn’t actually do.
"It is a horrible idea, that there is somebody who owns us, who makes us, who supervises us waking and sleeping, who knows our thoughts, who can convict us of thought crime - thought crime! Just for what we THINK. Who can judge us while we sleep, for things that might occur to us in our dreams, who can create us sick (as apparently we are) and then order us on pain of eternal torture to be well again. To demand this (to wish this to be true) is to wish to live as an abject slave! It is a wonderful thing, in my submission, that we now have enough information, enough intelligence, and I hope, enough intellectual and moral courage to finally say that this ghastly proposition is founded on a lie, and to celebrate that fact. And I invite you to join me in doing so." - Christopher Hitchens
“All I can do is tell you what the text says“… But that’s not true, you can’t tell me what the text says, because your doctrine actually says something different than the text. And that is the problem. There is not a single verse that says all mankind is guilty of Adams sin, then, all mankind was in Adam when he send, that all mankind is born sinful/depraved/wicked… Etc..
Renew your mind and give your body as a sacrifice to the Lord. Be transformed by not following this world but follow Gods word. It’s not always easy and He will support you every day. He judges the intent of your heart, and we can be open and honest with the Lord.
@@cwill2914 Jesus came to save the world, not to condemn it. We are born as sinners, yes, with a sinful nature. but we are made new in christ if we accept Him and abide in Him. If we follow Him we pick up our cross and deny ourselves (the sinful nature) and being justified we begin a path of sanctification (a path of being made Holy) to be like Him. Bless you.
@@cwill2914Let’s clear up a misunderstanding. Our sin and condemnation is not the gospel. It is the context. The gospel is God’s provision, at His own expense, for our redemption. The gospel is God’s love and all the blessings of becoming His children. To move forward, study those blessings and just relax in the knowledge of your salvation and security in Him. That is, assuming someone has presented the gospel to you. When I was converted, I focused too much on the context that God had brought me out of. Don’t make my mistake. It began a mindset that cost me peace and plunged me into defeatism. It cost me so much (I’ll skip the details). Read your Bible. Get a translation, not a paraphrase. Focus on the blessings, and discipline yourself to think and speak about yourself in terms of your new identity. Of course, act in ways appropriate to that identity.
Regardless of whether it’s at my root or yours, we all sin. So, regardless we still need the mercy of God. This dude is a Calvinist and thinks we only need the mercy of God if we are utterly uber dooper sinful. Sorry dude, David was conceived from the line of a Moabitess…conceived outside of Isreal’s line and therefore in sin.
Which dude thinks we only need mercy if we’re extremely sinful? That doesn’t come from Calvinism. Calvinism says we all need mercy. Greg is somewhere between Arminian and Calvinist, so you must not be referring to him. And he says we all need mercy.
Instead of asking how can God judge us for that which we are born with.... rather ask... who said we are born with a sinful nature? Through Adam sin came= death to all. We all die. But God has given us a free-will to choose either life or death. In Him, as a born again christian, we live eternally with Him. We don't suffer the evils of death. (eternal death). It began with St. Augustine who begin teaching we have a sinful nature. Then Calvin codified that teaching and many orthodox churches teach the "original sin" and the "sinful nature". James tells us that when we give into a wayward lust or what we call a lust of the flesh then sin comes. We don't sin if we have bad thoughts. It's when you carry them out. But again, we need to take sinful thoughts captive by the Word of God. Going back, we aren't born with a sinful nature or otherwise babies who die would be punished for that sinful nature that they had no knowledge. See how wrong that is? My opinion is that we sin and we like it! and it pleases us therefore we keep doing it and it becomes "second nature" to us. But it's sinful habits not a sinful nature. We develop a "sin consciousness" about our sins. When we are born again, God cuts off the sin in our life and cleanses us. He gives us the power to choose life instead of sin. sin is broken.
It does not logically flow from birth with a sinful nature that babies would be condemned. First, accountability does not come until capacity to distinguish between good and evil develops. Second, if a person has not developed that capacity, then, when death frees their spirit from that incapacity, God can apply the blessings of salvation to that person. Who put labels on scriptures’ teachings is irrelevant to the veracity of the teachings. Catholics like to use the same genetic fallacy to deny the scriptures’ teaching of grace through faith apart from works. So, the form of your argument is not valid. The scriptures are explicit about all being born with a sinful nature.
Everybody falls short of His glory. If you say you dont sin your a liar and truth is not in you. We are righteousness only because Jesus blood covers us
Sin is a biblical concept. As human we do good and we do bad it is what it is you don't to need repent in front of anybody except yourself just take your responsibilities if you messed up try to fix it or try to balance it why do we need a god or a Jesus to me it's avoiding responsibilities you did bad assume it, try to do something else to balance it etc.... but it's too easy to have a Jesus to feel better...
No your wrong. Sin nature is a new teaching, it’s not biblical. David said in sin did my mother conceive me. His mother was sinning not David. Read it again. David’s mother was sinning when there was conception.
Sin nature was formulated by Augustine. The scriptural case for it is strong enough that people who denied it were declared heretics. So, it’s hardly “new.” Catholics use the same argument to deny everything that Protestants believe, too. It’s called the genetic fallacy.
I am going to attempt to answer this question. How can God punish eternally our rebellion and sinful nature, when we are inately born sinful, and how is that fair.? I think because you are looking at it intellectually And from a theological point of view rather from God's point of view. God created Adam in the likeness of Him. But NOT him. Therefore, Adam had to have enough room for the possibility of a flaw. Otherwise, I would argue, that God would have made another Him. Also, He provided Adam & Eve the ability to make choices and not merely puppets or robots but beings with feelings and choices. Adam & Eve at that time were not made into sin. And there was no reason to punish them "eternally" for their sinful nature because there was no sin. When they disobeyed God's command not to eat of the Tree of Good & Evil, they were then aware of their sin, and the Holiness of God that they hid themselves in the Garden and were aware of their nakedness. Sin was then born. God then punished both Adam and Eve and all their descendants. I won't go into verses. But God then cursed both The man and woman. The man would toil the earth by the sweat of his brow and the woman would pain in labor. God also punished the servant who was at first on two legs but made the snake to be on his belly with the dust in its mouth and that the serpant would fight with all of their descendants. We are born sinful in nature because of the sin committed in the beginning. Therefore because of sin our punishment is death. And because God loves us so much, He gave us His grace to be able to pay that sin through death, but not our death but His Son Jesus' death and blood if we only confess and believe. We will be be born in sin, and continue to battle with sin ( and the servant) until God's will is come on this earth. God will judge us great and small by all our works good & bad. It then doesn't become a question of weather it is fair that we are to pay eternally for our sin, when we were already born in sin, but rather, a thankful and humble heart that God chose to give us grace and mercy by forgiving us of those sins ( which we don't deserve ) by placing Jesus in the place of each one of us to be able to stand in the Holiness of God. Our robes then washed by the blood of the Lamb. We continue to watch and pray, and ask forgiveness of our imperfect ways because we are flawed in the eyes of the Lord until He comes back again to claim us as His own.
So perfect God, creates imperfect humans (which is not a perfect action rendering God not perfect) and is unable to create mankind without sin and then blames us for sinning. The issue isn't this being too deep or mysterious for us to be able to wrap our heads around, the issue is it's plainly illogical and contradictory. You just seem to refuse to acknowledge this and write it off as mysterious.
Some of your argumentation is difficult. Perfect God creates imperfect human, therefore God is not perfect. Please explain. It seems like you are trying to say that God intended to make humans perfect, am I right? I don't see that from the text...
Andy Back Erm.. You've just put your original assertion into question form. You seem to have already come to a conclusion on that, so please explain. How can something imperfect (you) claim to understand how something perfect is supposed to function? Thanks.
The truth is that if being physically born in Adam can't damn us, being spiritually reborn in Christ can't save us. If Adam's sin was not credited to our account at our birth, Christ's righteous obedience can't be credited to us at our rebirth either. But here's a thought on original sin Greg. If Christ on the cross actually fulfilled the Day of Atonement sacrifice (which is said to be for the sins of the *nation* committed in ignorance) as well as the Passover sacrifice (where the faith of the head of the household saves himself and covers his household), then all humanity's original sin has been forgiven and people are only accountable for their own personal sin (bad enough). Unlike the Passover sacrifice where the people participate in the sacrifice by faith, the Day of Atonement sacrifice is something which is done *for them* and *to them* by virtue of their being members of the nation. Only the High Priest and the Elders have any role in this sacrifice. In the Day of Atonement sacrifice recorded in the Gospels, Pontius Pilate officiates bringing the two goats used in the sacrifice to the High Priest for his decision as to which will be the sacrificial victim and which will be the scapegoat. Pilate presents Jesus (according to church tradition) Bar (son of) Abbas (abba: father) on one side and Jesus Son of the Father on the other side for the High Priest to choose which is which. The High Priest selects Jesus as the victim and Barabbas as the scapegoat to be released outside the camp to bear away the sin of the nation out of the camp. Surprisingly though, the really important part for understanding this sacrifice is to notice who is acting in the place of the elders/king of Israel. That would be Pilate - a Roman pagan. But Pilate has no authority of his own and is merely a representative of Caesar, who is king of the world. But even Caesar is himself a representative, as there is a dynasty of kings of the world going all the way back to the first king of the world, Adam (see Klein on suzerain theology). That's right, Adam is presenting these two goats to the High Priest for his decision. Now what kind of sin could Adam be bringing a sacrifice for? His own personal sin? No, in this case he is acting in his official capacity as federal head of the human race (king of the world). It's a sacrifice for his original sin. And b/c Adam is bringing it, and as all human beings save Christ alone are in Adam, when the sacrifice is accomplished on the cross all original sin of all people is forgiven. Christ is quite literally the Savior of all men, though He does not save all men equally. Christ literally died for everyone, literally died for the sins of the world, literally saves everyone - from the penalty of original sin. But Christ only saves *to the uttermost* His elect, dying for their personal sins (in the Passover sacrifice) as well as their original sin (in the Day of Atonement sacrifice). No one goes to Gehenna for Original Sin, only for their Personal Sin. There you have it (left much out for brevity's sake) - two sacrificial feasts fulfilled, two sacrifices accomplished, two types of sin atoned for, two peoples saved (one, to the uttermost), and one sacrificial Victim.
I don’t understand the point of the first paragraph. It gets lost in the negatives. The second paragraph is fascinating. Wow! The rest depends on sacrifices made for a population rather than for a collection of individuals. It assumes too much.
Mr Koukl, I might be able to help with the answer to the question of how is it that God can punish eternally those rebelling against him when falleness was something they were born with. After listening to your solution, which basically is to avoid the truth and conclude that there are some things that we just cannot ever resolve. You fail to see the answer because you start with a presuppositional conclusion (God is real) and then experience cognitive dissonance of trying to match up reality with an imaginary universe that has purpose. It will never line up for you. You will always have that unscratchable itch because fundamental believers like yourself are unable to accept new truth while simultaneously holding onto superstitious beliefs.
we are guilty cuz god sees everything frombthe end to the beginning....he already before we do it knows we will do it therefore guilt sentenace....brother u are trying to nail GOD Zdown to thebperimeters of our tiny minds and tiny logic...which i do believe is from God logic....however GOD is beyond outside not tied down to logic i did not say gid is illogical....simply he sees from the end to the beginning thus we are guilty and would of commited that sin ....the same as adam and eve
Greg, the answer to your question is that your premise is wrong. God is the invention of the human mind. There is no logical consistency or coherence to this invention. It does not reflect reality. There is no God, therefore there is no sin against God, no rebellion against God, no original sin therefore no unfair punishment by a non-existent God. If ye have any evidence that your apparently unjust God not only exists but punishes humans, ye are to declare it now.
What is the evidence for your claims? Oh, that’s right. Atheists had to change the definition of atheism to escape their own, impossible burden of proof.
![Kodak Black - Versatile 4 [Official Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/VcP_1Ua__vY/mqdefault.jpg)
A mature, thoughtful, humble and orthodox response. This serves as a good apologetic model for dealing with objections or just plain questions to our faith. Good work.
I struggled with this question for such a long time.But now i have the answer.
The question is: “how is it that God can punish eternally those rebelling against him when falleness is something they were born with?”
Well,you could ask that question if God didn’t provide a way to save us.But guess what,He did.
God knows everything before it happens.
He surely knew that man would fall.
He surely knew He Himself had to pay the price.
You might wonder “why did He create us if He knew we would fall?” Because He thinks it is a price worth paying.
Through the sacrifice,through Jesus, He thought us love, the beauty of submission,humility,obedience.
Now you are judged upon your decision to accept Jesus’s sacrifice or not.
And if you reject that sacrifice,you are still judged for your sins, but you can’t say to God “i had no choice,i was born incapable to be sinless “ , because you had a choice to accept Jesus’s sacrifice. God provided a way from the beginning.
And another question might come up : “What about those who lived before Christ? “
Genesis 15:6 “And he (Abraham) believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness.
They were made right with God through faith as well as we are.
God bless you.
With respect, what about all of those who lived in, say, Siam, over the past two millennia, and never heard of Jesus Christ?
@@michaelhall2709 read Roman’s chapter 1. It’s clears up your question. No man has an excuse before God.
I think you’re saying, if God creates us fallen, He has no right to punish us for fallen behaviors; but if He also creates a way of redemption, then He can punish.
God did not create us fallen. He created us innocent. We inherited fallenness from our ancestors who fell.
Those who do not receive forgiveness are not punished for not receiving Christ. They are punished for all their sins. Failing to repent and trust Christ simply adds to a long list of sins.
My answer is that we may be fallen, but we freely choose each sin. We are held accountable for the individual choices, not for the overall fallenness.
Thank you, Greg.
Thank you for your honesty.
There are a few things about Psalm 51 that people conveniently ignore when they use this passage as a proof text for original sin… First of all, the psalm is a poem, and poetry typically uses Hyperbolic language. Next, David says, in sin my mother conceived me… Not that he was sinfully made. Lastly, for people who like to use psalm 51 in applying to all human kind, please consider Job31:18, where Job says that he cared for widows from the womb. Be fair and apply this to all babies. David also says that God has been his God from his mothers womb. Apply this to all babies.
It isn’t a matter of culture or Americanism that we say, “that’s not fair”, but rather a matter of morality and justice and goodness that we object to something heinous that isn’t even sound biblically.
I have found the truth of why we are born into sin. It’s profound but simple and when you realize it. So many things in life will make sense
This brought to mind "all of creation are the Lord's" "he does as he pleases" and that we're living out the glory he wanted for the universe. To manifest his righteousness, lawlessness had to exist.
That we even can know such things to be expressed is apart of glory as we get closer and closer to that final day of judgement.
This planet and all of its life will one day fade away for an even greater glory.
You keeping saying "had to" when it comes to an all powerful being. What barriers exist for all powerful being that lawlessness had to exist? God isn't powerful enough to create a universe in which lawlessness didn't have to exist? Does lawlessness exist in heaven?
@@Andyconda77 are these questions, things you've done no research on your own?
Or have you done the research and are searching for meaning to what you've already found?
You know that all the questions you have can be researched with a minimum amount of effort on your part.
If your just trying to be the antagonistic, I've already grown out of that part of life.
I'd love to communicate, but what that is, is a destructive waste of time.
@@zacharynash-pate291
What is this? Just answer the questions and have a dialouge with me. Is this your first day in the comment section?
@@zacharynash-pate291
Weak!! If your beliefs can't stand up to criticism or scrutiny, you should ammend your beliefs.
@@Andyconda77 nope wrong.
Sin is spiritual harlotry.
Sin can open doors that can't be closed. Some of the repercussions of sin over time are coldness or lukewarmness towards God, spiritual blindness, spiritual deafness, spiritual drunkedness, spiritual deception, spiritual darkness, bondage, demonic oppression or possession, perversion, addiction, depression, desperation, indifference to God's rules and laws, stunted spiritual growth, weak moral compass, idolotry, love of the world, lack of wisdom, lack of control, emptiness, lack of contentment, anger, arrogance, resentment of truth, resentment or mockery of holiness, denial and blasphemy against the power of the Holy Spirit to deliver us from the bondage of sin, a hardened heart, a loss of conscience, depravity, and enmity with God.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Animals like human can steal, deceive and kill, should we condemn them for sinful acts? To sin is nature for living creatures, it has nothing to do with Adam, Eve or Satan’s temptation.
Animals lack moral capacity, so they lack accountability. Also, God is judge and we don’t have authority to condemn animals. Except for cats.
Wait. I missed it. Are you saying that animals are the standard by which humans should be judged?
“We fell in Adam” is at least an honest way to describe the absurd doctrine that claims we deserve eternal hellfire for something we didn’t actually do.
"It is a horrible idea, that there is somebody who owns us, who makes us, who supervises us waking and sleeping, who knows our thoughts, who can convict us of thought crime - thought crime! Just for what we THINK. Who can judge us while we sleep, for things that might occur to us in our dreams, who can create us sick (as apparently we are) and then order us on pain of eternal torture to be well again. To demand this (to wish this to be true) is to wish to live as an abject slave! It is a wonderful thing, in my submission, that we now have enough information, enough intelligence, and I hope, enough intellectual and moral courage to finally say that this ghastly proposition is founded on a lie, and to celebrate that fact. And I invite you to join me in doing so."
- Christopher Hitchens
If “somebody” were a mere human, Hitchens would have a point. But “Somebody” wasn’t a mere human.
“All I can do is tell you what the text says“… But that’s not true, you can’t tell me what the text says, because your doctrine actually says something different than the text. And that is the problem. There is not a single verse that says all mankind is guilty of Adams sin, then, all mankind was in Adam when he send, that all mankind is born sinful/depraved/wicked… Etc..
That is correct.
How can I move forward with my faith under these circumstances? Please help
Renew your mind and give your body as a sacrifice to the Lord. Be transformed by not following this world but follow Gods word. It’s not always easy and He will support you every day. He judges the intent of your heart, and we can be open and honest with the Lord.
@@newroman116 but this is the entire gospel. That we will be punished if we aren’t saved, even tho we were created already needing saving
@@newroman116 thanks
@@cwill2914 Jesus came to save the world, not to condemn it. We are born as sinners, yes, with a sinful nature. but we are made new in christ if we accept Him and abide in Him. If we follow Him we pick up our cross and deny ourselves (the sinful nature) and being justified we begin a path of sanctification (a path of being made Holy) to be like Him. Bless you.
@@cwill2914Let’s clear up a misunderstanding. Our sin and condemnation is not the gospel. It is the context. The gospel is God’s provision, at His own expense, for our redemption. The gospel is God’s love and all the blessings of becoming His children.
To move forward, study those blessings and just relax in the knowledge of your salvation and security in Him. That is, assuming someone has presented the gospel to you.
When I was converted, I focused too much on the context that God had brought me out of. Don’t make my mistake. It began a mindset that cost me peace and plunged me into defeatism. It cost me so much (I’ll skip the details).
Read your Bible. Get a translation, not a paraphrase. Focus on the blessings, and discipline yourself to think and speak about yourself in terms of your new identity. Of course, act in ways appropriate to that identity.
Sinful nature isn’t biblical.
Regardless of whether it’s at my root or yours, we all sin. So, regardless we still need the mercy of God.
This dude is a Calvinist and thinks we only need the mercy of God if we are utterly uber dooper sinful.
Sorry dude, David was conceived from the line of a Moabitess…conceived outside of Isreal’s line and therefore in sin.
Which dude thinks we only need mercy if we’re extremely sinful? That doesn’t come from Calvinism. Calvinism says we all need mercy. Greg is somewhere between Arminian and Calvinist, so you must not be referring to him. And he says we all need mercy.
Instead of asking how can God judge us for that which we are born with.... rather ask... who said we are born with a sinful nature? Through Adam sin came= death to all. We all die. But God has given us a free-will to choose either life or death. In Him, as a born again christian, we live eternally with Him. We don't suffer the evils of death. (eternal death). It began with St. Augustine who begin teaching we have a sinful nature. Then Calvin codified that teaching and many orthodox churches teach the "original sin" and the "sinful nature". James tells us that when we give into a wayward lust or what we call a lust of the flesh then sin comes. We don't sin if we have bad thoughts. It's when you carry them out. But again, we need to take sinful thoughts captive by the Word of God. Going back, we aren't born with a sinful nature or otherwise babies who die would be punished for that sinful nature that they had no knowledge. See how wrong that is? My opinion is that we sin and we like it! and it pleases us therefore we keep doing it and it becomes "second nature" to us. But it's sinful habits not a sinful nature. We develop a "sin consciousness" about our sins. When we are born again, God cuts off the sin in our life and cleanses us. He gives us the power to choose life instead of sin. sin is broken.
It does not logically flow from birth with a sinful nature that babies would be condemned. First, accountability does not come until capacity to distinguish between good and evil develops. Second, if a person has not developed that capacity, then, when death frees their spirit from that incapacity, God can apply the blessings of salvation to that person.
Who put labels on scriptures’ teachings is irrelevant to the veracity of the teachings. Catholics like to use the same genetic fallacy to deny the scriptures’ teaching of grace through faith apart from works. So, the form of your argument is not valid.
The scriptures are explicit about all being born with a sinful nature.
@@ricksonora6656
No.
We are born in Death, not sin.
but why is that the way that it is? how do we know if God is just in his own subjective opinion by doing this instead of being objectively just?
Greg responds to this here: www.str.org/w/is-morality-grounded-in-god-just-another-form-of-relativism-
Romans 8:13
Everybody falls short of His glory. If you say you dont sin your a liar and truth is not in you. We are righteousness only because Jesus blood covers us
Sin is a biblical concept. As human we do good and we do bad it is what it is you don't to need repent in front of anybody except yourself just take your responsibilities if you messed up try to fix it or try to balance it why do we need a god or a Jesus to me it's avoiding responsibilities you did bad assume it, try to do something else to balance it etc.... but it's too easy to have a Jesus to feel better...
We do not have a "sinful nature." That idea did not come from the bible.
No your wrong. Sin nature is a new teaching, it’s not biblical. David said in sin did my mother conceive me. His mother was sinning not David. Read it again. David’s mother was sinning when there was conception.
So when Solomon was born did David and Bathsheba sin?
@@newroman116 I believe David and Bathsheba were married so no they weren’t sinning having sex At Solomon conception. David said in MY mothers womb.
Sin nature was formulated by Augustine. The scriptural case for it is strong enough that people who denied it were declared heretics. So, it’s hardly “new.” Catholics use the same argument to deny everything that Protestants believe, too. It’s called the genetic fallacy.
I am going to attempt to answer this question. How can God punish eternally our rebellion and sinful nature, when we are inately born sinful, and how is that fair.?
I think because you are looking at it intellectually And from a theological point of view rather from God's point of view.
God created Adam in the likeness of Him. But NOT him. Therefore, Adam had to have enough room for the possibility of a flaw. Otherwise, I would argue, that God would have made another Him. Also, He provided Adam & Eve the ability to make choices and not merely puppets or robots but beings with feelings and choices.
Adam & Eve at that time were not made into sin. And there was no reason to punish them "eternally" for their sinful nature because there was no sin.
When they disobeyed God's command not to eat of the Tree of Good & Evil, they were then aware of their sin, and the Holiness of God that they hid themselves in the Garden and were aware of their nakedness.
Sin was then born. God then punished both Adam and Eve and all their descendants. I won't go into verses. But God then cursed both The man and woman. The man would toil the earth by the sweat of his brow and the woman would pain in labor. God also punished the servant who was at first on two legs but made the snake to be on his belly with the dust in its mouth and that the serpant would fight with all of their descendants.
We are born sinful in nature because of the sin committed in the beginning.
Therefore because of sin our punishment is death. And because God loves us so much, He gave us His grace to be able to pay that sin through death, but not our death but His Son Jesus' death and blood if we only confess and believe.
We will be be born in sin, and continue to battle with sin ( and the servant) until God's will is come on this earth. God will judge us great and small by all our works good & bad.
It then doesn't become a question of weather it is fair that we are to pay eternally for our sin, when we were already born in sin, but rather, a thankful and humble heart that God chose to give us grace and mercy by forgiving us of those sins ( which we don't deserve ) by placing Jesus in the place of each one of us to be able to stand in the Holiness of God. Our robes then washed by the blood of the Lamb.
We continue to watch and pray, and ask forgiveness of our imperfect ways because we are flawed in the eyes of the Lord until He comes back again to claim us as His own.
So perfect God, creates imperfect humans (which is not a perfect action rendering God not perfect) and is unable to create mankind without sin and then blames us for sinning. The issue isn't this being too deep or mysterious for us to be able to wrap our heads around, the issue is it's plainly illogical and contradictory. You just seem to refuse to acknowledge this and write it off as mysterious.
Some of your argumentation is difficult.
Perfect God creates imperfect human, therefore God is not perfect. Please explain.
It seems like you are trying to say that God intended to make humans perfect, am I right?
I don't see that from the text...
+Andrew Boreland
How can something perfect, create something imperfect? Wouldn't that's negate it's perfection?
Andy Back Erm.. You've just put your original assertion into question form.
You seem to have already come to a conclusion on that, so please explain.
How can something imperfect (you) claim to understand how something perfect is supposed to function?
Thanks.
By committing perfect actions, creating an imperfect being is not a perfect action.
Is God bound by his own perfection to make only perfect choices?
The truth is that if being physically born in Adam can't damn us, being spiritually reborn in Christ can't save us. If Adam's sin was not credited to our account at our birth, Christ's righteous obedience can't be credited to us at our rebirth either.
But here's a thought on original sin Greg. If Christ on the cross actually fulfilled the Day of Atonement sacrifice (which is said to be for the sins of the *nation* committed in ignorance) as well as the Passover sacrifice (where the faith of the head of the household saves himself and covers his household), then all humanity's original sin has been forgiven and people are only accountable for their own personal sin (bad enough). Unlike the Passover sacrifice where the people participate in the sacrifice by faith, the Day of Atonement sacrifice is something which is done *for them* and *to them* by virtue of their being members of the nation. Only the High Priest and the Elders have any role in this sacrifice.
In the Day of Atonement sacrifice recorded in the Gospels, Pontius Pilate officiates bringing the two goats used in the sacrifice to the High Priest for his decision as to which will be the sacrificial victim and which will be the scapegoat. Pilate presents Jesus (according to church tradition) Bar (son of) Abbas (abba: father) on one side and Jesus Son of the Father on the other side for the High Priest to choose which is which. The High Priest selects Jesus as the victim and Barabbas as the scapegoat to be released outside the camp to bear away the sin of the nation out of the camp.
Surprisingly though, the really important part for understanding this sacrifice is to notice who is acting in the place of the elders/king of Israel. That would be Pilate - a Roman pagan. But Pilate has no authority of his own and is merely a representative of Caesar, who is king of the world. But even Caesar is himself a representative, as there is a dynasty of kings of the world going all the way back to the first king of the world, Adam (see Klein on suzerain theology). That's right, Adam is presenting these two goats to the High Priest for his decision. Now what kind of sin could Adam be bringing a sacrifice for? His own personal sin? No, in this case he is acting in his official capacity as federal head of the human race (king of the world). It's a sacrifice for his original sin. And b/c Adam is bringing it, and as all human beings save Christ alone are in Adam, when the sacrifice is accomplished on the cross all original sin of all people is forgiven. Christ is quite literally the Savior of all men, though He does not save all men equally. Christ literally died for everyone, literally died for the sins of the world, literally saves everyone - from the penalty of original sin. But Christ only saves *to the uttermost* His elect, dying for their personal sins (in the Passover sacrifice) as well as their original sin (in the Day of Atonement sacrifice). No one goes to Gehenna for Original Sin, only for their Personal Sin.
There you have it (left much out for brevity's sake) - two sacrificial feasts fulfilled, two sacrifices accomplished, two types of sin atoned for, two peoples saved (one, to the uttermost), and one sacrificial Victim.
I don’t understand the point of the first paragraph. It gets lost in the negatives.
The second paragraph is fascinating. Wow!
The rest depends on sacrifices made for a population rather than for a collection of individuals. It assumes too much.
All orthodox except orthodox right? 😉
Romans 2:14 answers it all clearly-----that's right it's not fair.......you know why...cuz it's a lie
You have to repent and asked forgiveness and then don’t repeat the sin.
No.
Wolf-----
Mr Koukl, I might be able to help with the answer to the question of how is it that God can punish eternally those rebelling against him when falleness was something they were born with. After listening to your solution, which basically is to avoid the truth and conclude that there are some things that we just cannot ever resolve. You fail to see the answer because you start with a presuppositional conclusion (God is real) and then experience cognitive dissonance of trying to match up reality with an imaginary universe that has purpose. It will never line up for you. You will always have that unscratchable itch because fundamental believers like yourself are unable to accept new truth while simultaneously holding onto superstitious beliefs.
All ad hominem and remote psychoanalysis.
we are guilty cuz god sees everything frombthe end to the beginning....he already before we do it knows we will do it therefore guilt sentenace....brother u are trying to nail GOD Zdown to thebperimeters of our tiny minds and tiny logic...which i do believe is from God logic....however GOD is beyond outside not tied down to logic i did not say gid is illogical....simply he sees from the end to the beginning thus we are guilty and would of commited that sin ....the same as adam and eve
Greg, the answer to your question is that your premise is wrong. God is the invention of the human mind. There is no logical consistency or coherence to this invention. It does not reflect reality.
There is no God, therefore there is no sin against God, no rebellion against God, no original sin therefore no unfair punishment by a non-existent God.
If ye have any evidence that your apparently unjust God not only exists but punishes humans, ye are to declare it now.
What is the evidence for your claims? Oh, that’s right. Atheists had to change the definition of atheism to escape their own, impossible burden of proof.