I am 76 years old. Recently found my daddy's records. He enlisted in 1932, USMC, New Orleans. He retired 1952, Camp Lejeune. Twenty years of records; almost 100 pages I knew he had been at Pearl Harbor, Midway, Palmyra, and Okinawa. I never knew he was at Peleliu. He received a letter of commendation and ribbon from General Roy Geiger for meritorious bravery. I was so excited to find your podcast. Thank you...Semper Fi.
I'm watching episode 101, the Inaugural eposode of the Unauthorized History of the Pacific War at 1747, 3/14/2024, and at 30:30 of the episode, Captain Toti is beginning his comparison of the readiness of the American government, services commands in Kimmel and Short, the political situations, near and far, and the lessons that we had thrust upon us then and in the terrible war that followed, which we learned at great cost. He voices his fear that these lessons are getting very dusty during a time of the unraveling of the Pax Americana of the past 80 years. In reality the USA has been on a war footing since the Attack on Pearl Harbor on December 7th, 1941, with some delusional days before real war in Korea awoke us to the reality of the so called Cold War with the Russians and Chinese that began with the Korean armistice on July 27, 1953. That war has never truly ended. The 38th parallel is a defended border between South and North Korea. The USA still has troops manning those😢 guard towers, and our Nuclear umbrella so far has kept the Nuclear North on their own side. This is only one of the active and unfinished wars burning or smoldering. We have carrier battle groups in harms way, and frankly in a 😮mobile Pearl Harbor. I share Captain Toti's concerns about the dusty lessons. I know that politics are verboten here. I hope my shared concerns aren't crossing no man's land. Maybe we can begin to 😢get back by comparing Admiral King's and General Ridgeway's shared temperament and outlooks. The world has been at war a long time now, and we're still needing our sonsabitches somewhere. Ready.
We have to note something here: If the battleships had been warned, what would happen? If they got underway and left the harbor and been attacked with similar results OUTSIDE the harbor, they woul;d have been sunk in deep water and never recovered except as scrip. We would have shot down more Japanese planes, but that is of no real consequence. What happened is probably about the best result that could have occurred. The ships were mostly recovered and made even better eventually. Also, this attack by aircraft carriers instantly turned the US Navy into a submarine/aircraft carrier force and made the effectiveness of carriers obviously much more dangerous than any battleship force could possibly be in the huge Pacific Ocean. Bad way to get educated, but nobody could possibly argue against such power. Shortened the war a lot.
Realistically, even if Ward's warning was heeded and the radar operator didn't just dismiss them as B17s there wasn't enough time for many ships in the harbor to get under way. They would have to light boilers and bring them up to steam and that isn't something that can be done quickly. Only reason Nevada got underwear is that she already had two boilers lit.
@@robertphillips9017in particular the pilots weren’t up to taking on the Japanese- yet The months of intense training and minor scraps that led to the bigger ones at Coral and after helped quickly improve their skills
What kills me is this......MacArthur got off scot free whereas Kimmel and Short were hung out to dry for exactly the same offense. Which was not acting on the war warning message. In fact, MacArthur was even further at fault as he had advanced warning after the Japanese attached Pearl.
This may sound dumb, but it only occurred to me during this video that POTUS/FDR had to have received that detailed 2/41 "war warning" (and the one subsequent) from Stimson as well. I'm not at all leaning towards conspiracy. I am, however stunned by our overall complacency. And yeah, we didn't respect the Japanese. Had nothing to do with race. Had everything to do with "we're America!!!" post-WWI. "Tiny little island nation, what could they possibly do to us?"
There were several things going on prior to Pearl Harbor that are often given short shrift, if mentioned at all. 1) Japan's economy ran on coal (about 2/3rds of domestic power) and hydroelectric. (BTW, oil didn't supplant coal as #1 source of power in the US until the 1960s). On the eve of Pearl Harbor Japan only had about 6,000 miles of paved roads and about 11,500 miles of rail, a lot of it in cities that were served by electrified street cars and some petrol fueled. (Japan's land is 54% larger than Britain's and Britain had nearly 20,000 miles of rail before WWII.) Japan is a very mountainous country, maritime shipping is cheap, and its major cities are on the coast. A lot of Japan's domestic maritime commerce was handled by littoral steamers powered by coal. Oil was needed by military, chiefly the navy and army aviation. When Japan quit the Washington and London treaties and began to expand the navy it shifted resources into industries requiring a lot more power - steel making, aluminium smelting, and ship building. A cost of this expansion was the reduction of Japan's exports and foreign exchange earnings. Japan's war economy from 1937 onwards greatly depleted its foreign reserves - the decisive battle to defeat China in weeks didn't pan out. In '34, '35, and '36, military spending was 44.2%, 46.8%, and 48.4% of the government's expenditure, respectively. In '37, '38, and '39 it shot to over 70%. - in '38 it was 75.4%. And the government expenditure increased 466% from 1932 to 1940. The military was bleeding Japan dry. 2) Though the US was the world's largest producer of oil, the world's largest exporter in the 1930s was Venezuela. Yet, Japan imported very little oil from it directly. Why? Japan had few oil tankers though it had the world's third largest merchant maritime fleet - about 5%. Norway, the world's 4th largest merchant fleet (4%), had about 250 oil tankers, which was 40% of the world's tanker fleet not owned by oil companies and 18% of all tankers. In late '39, the British contracted service of 150 of these Norwegian tankers, which were the amongst the world's most modern. With Germany's invasion of Norway, the remaining tankers came under British contract. Further, the Dutch tankers came under British contract as the Netherlands was a wartime ally. Moreover, with Mexico's nationalisation of the petrol industry in '38, Britain refused to carry Mexican oil, which removed much of its output from the world market. Later the US persuaded Britain to end its sanctions, and its oil went to the US and Britain. Of the 49 (49!?) oceangoing tankers Japan possessed in 1940, 33 were capable of 16 knots or better. Little Norway had five times more tankers than Japan. Off of America's Atlantic and Gulf coasts in '42 the Allies lost three times the tankers Japan possessed. The Allies were losing tankers here, there, and everywhere yet the oil kept flowing. 3) With Japan's invasion of China in '37, even more oil was shifted to the military. Petrol rationing for personal use such as cars was introduced in '38, two years before the US ceased aviation fuel exports to Japan and three years before crude. Japan couldn't increase its imports _at a time when there were no trade restrictions_ because it was running out of money. Moreover, the number of non-government vehicles in Japan was about 1% of that in the US. Private oil consumption in Japan was very low compared to the US and Western Europe. With the banning of aviation fuel exports to Japan in '40, Japan increased crude imports and began refining aviation fuel at home. 4) In 1940, Japan sought to diversity its oil imports from the US to the Dutch East Indies. On 12 Sep '40, a delegation led by Ichizo Kobayashi, Minister of Commerce and Industry, started negotiations in Batavia (later Jakarta) for the purchase of Dutch oil and the acquisition of oil fields and exploration rights in the East Indies. Tokyo wanted 50% of the islands' production, which would have required much more Dutch shipping at the expense of Britain's cause. At the time the East Indies supplied about 10% of Japan's crude. Ten days later Japanese troops entered neutral French Indochina - this surely rattled the Dutch. On 27 September, Tokyo joined the Tripartite Pact with Germany and Italy, and because the Netherlands was at war with and occupied by the Germans, the stance of the East Indies colonial government stiffened. Perhaps Tokyo wagered these moves would sufficiently strike fear in Governor-General Van Mook and he would cave. He didn't. By October 1940, negotiations had reached a deadlock. The Japanese were told that the Dutch government was not an oil merchant; Japan would have to negotiate with the oil companies. Japan demanded to pay in yen. The Dutch replied only guilders and dollars were accepted. Japan then demanded 3.5 million tons of crude and aviation fuel. The Dutch replied that most of its production was already contracted with others. In the end, Japan got about one-third its demand and no aviation fuel. 5) In the autumn of 1940, the idea that there was only one way to resolve the stalemate in the Sino-Japanese War spread through the Japanese military. The theory of the southward advance rapidly became a reality in the national defence concept. From March '41 to May '41, Japan drafted and formulated the Principles Governing the Administrative of the Occupied Southern Territories (Dutch East Indies, British Malaya and North Borneo, etc) - this was before America's embargo of crude oil in '41. 6) Japan was attempting to prevent trade with China by the US and Europe years before the US responded in kind. Its navy ran interdiction patrols of China's coast. China’s main seaports were occupied. Japan's invasion of Indochina was to cut off China from a vital trade route. In 1939, Japan blockaded the Anglo-French concession in Tientsin to force the Europeans to submit to several Japanese demands including handing over the silver reserves stored in Chinese banks in the concession. Japan was attempting to establish the yen bloc in China, but many Chinese refused to use the Japanese-issued occupation currency. 7) Japan had 16 billion barrels of oil underfoot in Manchuria and didn't know it - the Daqing oilfields, which became China's largest. Geologic surveys conducted by the Japanese earlier had found bitumen, but they didn't keep pushing on with exploration. Further, Japan's economic practices in Manchuria sought to limit participation in the economy by the Europeans and Americans. Had they permitted exploration perhaps this black gold would have been discovered. The US didn't manoeuvre Japan into a corner. Tokyo did so all by itself. Much of the problem was its magical thinking - the belief in the decisive battle. This had it invade China in '37, thinking it would be a walkover. (A repeat of the Imjin War.) It then did so against the USSR and Mongolia in '39, and suffered a walloping. 'Let's go fight Britain and America instead.' Thinking the Dutch East Indies would sell Japan 50% of its oil and accept payment in useless yen was really magical thinking. Pearl Harbor was another 'the decisive battle'. And Midway. Magical thinking progressed through WWII, Japan seeking the decisive battle after the previous decisive battle. And it refused to learn each time reality failed to meet deranged expectations. The outcomes of decisive-battle thinking cascaded. They didn't plan logistics thoroughly. Unlike Germany, Japan actually captured a major oil source yet couldn't sustain it against the US which had the rubbish Mark 14 torpedo until mid '43. Imagine how much more trouble Japan would have been in in '42 if the US had a reliable torpedo. Japan had good long-range submarines and didn't recognise or appreciate the havoc Germany's were causing in '42. Japan doing so along America's Pacific coast as well as the Panama Canal could have given the US a lot of heartburn. Squandered resource.
An excellent series, thank you for all your hard work and effort. I'm an Irish man living in Ireland who has always been intrigued by ww2 in the Pacific. The sheer enormity of all aspects of the theatre, distances, numbers of men, ships, planes, supply tonnages, just everything is almost incomprehensible.
Great observation. I did the same as you. Considering this is College level course work, without the tuition, it's Pacific War 101. Did you have family in that theater during the war? Just asking.
Outstanding show. Very well presented. Don’t be “a fear’d” to turn the show into two hour episodes either. Don’t know what you base your present time limitations on, but I’m sure there are plenty of us who would love to hear a multi-hour presentation.
Oh I could listen to the perspectives of others, especially those who served in a given location. Drach is well known and understood to be very knowledgeable but there’s so much more to an event. Thank you for using the time the pandemic blessed some of us with for the right thing.
I think that the PTO has not been given the same coverage as the ETO and this podcast is helping to redress that problem. I have read several books on the PTO and this podcast will likely fill in some blank spots those books did not cover. I hope your subscriber count increases as the quality of your content is very high.
Doing some casual research on Yamamoto I found he never made the sleeping giant or rifle behind every blade of grass quotes and I couldn’t even find a definitive source for the run wild quote. And Bill was talking about how the torpedo bombers had to fly low and slow through the AA flack but I think they were in the first wave only so I doubt they had many people shooting at them. And yes the oil tanks would have been an easy juicy target but I think the US had a lot of oilers they could have brought in from the west coast as a temporary replacement until they were rebuilt. For anyone interested in the aftermath and salvage operations at PH, Drachinifel has an excellent multi part series on it. Good show guys!
Didn't the Japanese plan to bomb the oil storage tanks on Oahu but decided enough of the US ships had been sunk and thus enough damage was inflicted that they just abandoned the plan for another wave of attack (which would've hit the oil storage tanks)?
I didn't pick up on your podcast until halfway through the first season, so I felt that it was time for me to go back to the beginning and catch up. And you picked the perfect way to start. I have done a LOT of reading about WW II in the PTO since I was in high school roughly 64 years ago. I worked in the school library and was the assistant librarian. It gave me unfettered access to a LOT of pertinent reference materials that were not supposed to leave the library proper, lol. I had always been a fan of Victory at Sea on television and was drawn to the Pacific in particular. The best thing in the library for me was the complete set of Samuel Eliot Morison's History of U. S. Naval Operations in WW II. I read every volume from cover to cover and decided that the PTO was the place for me. There were also so many great books by well respected historians. As far as Pearl Harbor is concerned, I was always looking for what happened to cause the catastrophe and read all of the known books at the time, John Toland, Gordon Prange and the like. It wasn't until I was a bit older when I started delving into the conditions in Asia before WW II started, going back to post-WW I and Japan's feeling that they were shortchanged in the aftermath. They ended up getting mandates over the Carolines, Marshalls and other important former Imperial German colonies and territories. These became their strongholds during the runup to WW II and after. I came across the story of USMC Lt. Col. Earl "Pete" Ellis and his quest in working on the doctrine of amphibious warfare, with special interest in the mandated areas I previously mentioned. He was the USMC's principal theorist on the subject, which laid down the basis for the amphibious campaign in the Central Pacific and the South Pacific. Unfortunately, he was an alcoholic, and died in 1923 when on a supposed covert mission to reconnoiter the Palau Islands. The general opinion is that he died because of his alcohol problems. In later years I found that there were several authors who delved deeply into the historical and social issues that helped foment the enmity between the US and Japan. H P Willmott's "Empires In The Balance" and Richard Frank's excellent first volume of his trilogy of the war in the Pacific, "Tower of Skulls are among the best. As respects whether or not the attack on Pearl Harbor was preventable or inevitable, I have to agree with both of you, it was going to happen. It's just by a set of circumstances that the attack was very damaging on one hand, and beneficial on another. The loss of oil tank farms, machine shops, drydocks and the like would have been a true catastrophe and force the US to project the war from San Diego, which could have added years to the war. Another factor as far as early warning is concerned is that there would not have been any appreciable benefit from it. In fact, if there had been time to sortie the fleet, that also would have been a catastrophe, as the ships would have been sunk in deeper water and with proportionally higher casualties. If fighters had been able to scramble and set up a CAP, they would have been at the mercy of the best fighter pilots on the planet at the time flying the finest fighter on the planet. The casualties would have been ruinous and would have set back the pilot training programs. There are so many "what if's" and "could have been's" that are completely worthless. The US was extremely fortunate that they had the wherewithal and guts to claw back into serious offensive action a little more than 6 months after Pearl Harbor. And when you talk about US arrogance about Japan, there is a similar arrogance by the Japanese about the combat prowess and intestinal fortitude of the American people when it came to a bloody war. There were bloody surprises for both sides.
@@richardbennett1856 There is no comparable source anywhere today to match Seth and Bill and their amazing guests. In fact, Jon Parshall is a regular contributor to the Naval Institute at Annapolis and a very-well noted historian on all things regarding naval history.
I was 18 when I first went to Pearl Harbor. My Dad would never talk about the war to me. He would relay the stories to my brothers instead. The indentations of enemy bullets were still visible on the walls at the submarine base. I would run my hands across them and try to imagine the horrors of that morning. My dad was on Ford Island getting ready for chapel. He said there were no officers anywhere. He was trained in Anti-aircraft Artillery, so he began firing. When the ammunition ran out, he used his sidearm. The ammunition was still stowed on a ship. That's the only story he ever told me. I have regrets about not knowing. I was an empty headed 18 year old female from Mississippi when I went to live on Oahu. So much history; so much lost time on my part. Thank you for your information. Certainly, there is fodder for me to look up and read. I have been working on a timeline and writing as much as I can for my children. The information you provided is greatly appreciated. Thank you, Sir, for replying to my post. I believe the attack was the only answer for the inevitable (and honorable) entry into the war for the United States.
My grandfather Richard Armstrong was on the U.S.S. Hornet battle of Santa Cruz. Survived. Adopted my mother and two brothers soon after WWII. Real men in those days.
You asked for errors: 55:45 Clearly a false conclusion. I could listen for 3 or 4 more hours and do not believe I am alone in this. You both are a gift to people who want to learn more on the Pacific War.
Came across your channel through watching some videos with Jon Parshall in them and wow....just wow, the level of detail and knowledge you guys have is unbelievable. I'm in the military and work in logistics, "...Amateurs talk strategy, professionals talk logistics..." I'd love to hear you do a podcast just on the logistical aspects of the PTO. The setup of the forward basing, the start of the replenishment at sea and so forth. What the Navy and supply ships were able to accomplish is just incredible.
Usually not hitting the oil tank farm is mentioned in many books and documentaries, but what is missed was the dry docks and the repair facilities. Those facilities were invaluable for the US Navy in the war to come.
How do you take out dry docks with 500 pound bombs? Have you been in a dry dock before? They're massive and designed to hold back massive amounts of water. You would need a HMS Campbeltown situation to take one of those out. You know what everyone does really miss about the Pearl Harbor attack? The cruisers. Only one was significantly damaged. Almost every Japanese pilot which was assigned to attack a cruiser went after a battleship. The cruisers, on both the American and Japanese sides, were both heavily used in 1942 and 1943. Just think of the war without the cruisers early on.
@@arisukak Even the Campbeltown was only only intended to take out the gates. I haven't looked at the layout for the Pearl Harbor drydocks, but torpedoing the gates might have knocked them out for a period of time.
Nice discussion, I came across your channel this week when digging into all things Midway and I'm enjoying the insights. 10's of millions of US citizens were "all in" turning the US Navy into the unstoppable force it was in '45 in less than a 1/2 dozen years.
Hey guys. I just found your podcast randomly via the Guadalcanal part 2 episode and decided to start at the beginning. I'm loving this discussion so far.
I just discovered this RUclips channel a couple of months ago and have since been, more or less randomly, watching these streams. I got addicted and figured I'd go back and start with Episode 101 and follow them through chronologically. So, here I am.
I finally clicked on one of your videos and I’m glad I did. I’m starting from the beginning and look forward to more episodes. I notice that it is following the war somewhat chronologically and I look forward to hearing about Tarawa, Okinawa, and my biggest “curiosity” is Peleliu. One of my favorite books is “Helmet for my Pillow.” Bob Leckie has a knack for storytelling and humor.
You asked about suggestions, how about IJN Pilot Shigenori Nishikaichi who survived a crash landing on the island of Ni'ihau during the attack on Pearl Harbor? I think plenty of Americans have not heard about this, and also how ethnic Japanese residents attempted to aid Nishikaichi even after they learned of the Pearl Harbor attack. There are claims that this event spurred justification for Japanese internment during the war.
With regard to the reference to USS Ward at about 20:45, I like to draw the parallel between Ward on December 7, 1941 and Patterson on August 9, 1942, between William Outerbridge of Ward and Frank Walker of Patterson. In both cases, we have a singular shining example of alertness of mind and alacrity of action that stands in stark contrast to the fatal lethargy of mind present in other commanding officers, to great cost among their men. Ward, as you mentioned, attacked and sank a midget sub and radioed the warning to higher command. Patterson, at Savo Island, broadcast the first report of "Strange ships entering harbor" and rapidly opening fire, her response, as Richard Frank notes, characterized by "alacrity and intelligence".
I found your Podcasts interesting and informative, wish you well on the growth of your Channel. I feel that impact that the Naval modernization by the U.S. during the 1930's and Two Ocean Navy Act of 1940 is a factor in the Pearl Harbor attack that is not often explored. I would like to see a program on how we got the Navy that we had during WWII.
That being said, the prewar buildup of the Navy by FDR built, or at the very least modernized, the vessels that fought the first year of war. Fascinating topic. I absolutely love it. -SP
First, let me say that I am delighted to have stumbled across your podcast series on the PTO, a period in history in which I have long had a deep interest. I have subscribed and look forward with relish to listening to your future podcasts and your insights on the air, surface and subsurface aspects of the Pacific conflict. Second, my question for you is to challenge what I believe to be conventional thinking on the beginnings of the war between the U.S. and the Japanese Empire. As I understand both of you have mentioned your belief in the inevitability of the conflict. However, I have always wondered if Japan may have misread the willingness of the U.S. to intervene militarily in its Pacific aspirations absent an attack on Pearl Harbor and the Philippines. Isolationist sentiment was extremely high in America pre-war and if Japan had gambled another way by not interdicting Pearl Harbor and just "sailing by" the Philippines as it were on its way to Malaya, Burma and the Dutch East Indies, would the U.S. have been willing to oppose Japan with force? Would you be willing to comment here or in a podcast on how the PTO might have been different in that instance?
@@UnauthorizedHistoryPacificWar I suppose this extends beyond the scope of your podcast series, but speculation could be made over whether the U.S. would have delayed or declined to enter WW2 at all without a Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor and the Philippines. After all, it was Hitler's decision to declare war on America that propelled our country into a two-front war. Without the Japanese attacks, there might not have been a one-front war (in the Pacific). Would Australia and Britain have had to go it alone in the PTO - and could they have? Lots of fascinating what-ifs here.
My dad was a new Navy pilot who witnessed the battle (he hadn't been assigned to a squadron yet, so by his description he was a bystander). He always said that Kermit Tyler wasn't to blame. He did feel that the report of a submarine attacked by USS Ward should've triggered an alert. in his words: "if you're going to have ships and planes patrolling, you should also trust the information those patrols provide." IMO, it would've made the job of the attackers much harder had there been anti-aircraft batteries manned and ready, and aircraft in the air with more at the ready.
Hey, great series guys, Nice work Bill and Seth, and lots of great guests too. I've seen about 5 or 6 of your podcasts by now here on RUclips. Unfortunatly not in order. I read the Toland book way back then and I mostly bought his theory. I've also always been a fan of the year 1942 from the Doolittle Raid, to Midway to our establishing a toehold in the Solomons and beginning the long march back. I'm not a fan of dugout Doug either. I served in the Corps either active duty or active reserve for most of the 1970's.
This is Bill-- I still have my old, dog-eared copy and bought into this too when it came out. Then I started talking to real experts and the theories fell apart one-by-one.
Ok, Bill, now I don't feel so bad. Keep up the good work! And I appreciate the way you guys ask for feedback. Every other RUclips site says "LIKE, SHARE AND SUBSCRIBE." You and Seth are much more laid back and it's greatly appreciated.
Great show guys! I love the focus on the PTO and y’all are very easy to listen to. Keep it up and don’t shy away from long episodes and getting in to some deep dives!
G'day Bill and Seth, after enthusiastically consuming your brilliant show for three excellent seasons, I've gone back to review your 'pilot' episode, I remember being so impressed by your excellent format at the time but looking at it today I hadn't realised how polished you both were from the 'get go'. Bravo Zulu!!!
Your comments about the P-40s would not have been all that effective (against zeros) if they were warned has some credence. However, the loaded Kates ( that did all the damage ) would have been juicy targets. Also, on the 3rd wave- I have read that the dry docks were also spared and they would have been excellent targets hindering ship repair capabilities. good discussion!
My Uncle Harold F Willard was a member of the Silent Service during World War II. On December 7th he and a buddy were sitting atop Diamond Head enjoying the view that Sunday morning and they saw the whole attack go down. He said they scrambled down Diamond Head with their hearts in their throats trying to get back to their sub. When they got down to the main Highway the MP's and local police had all the roads closed and were ordering people back in their homes for safety. My Uncle never got back to his boat until later that day, early evening. I know that he carried some degree of guilt for the rest of his life for not getting back to his boat and his shipmates that day. Also, he had really bad ear problems the rest of his life from all of the crash dives and they had been depth-charged on several occasions. I'm really proud of my Uncle's contribution to the war. He was my favorite Uncle with a hell of a sense of humor and kindness. Rest in peace Uncle Harold, you answered the call, you did your job and you did it well!⚓️🇺🇲🙏💖🏝🍻😊
Your Uncle Harold would be very proud of this testament about him. He must have been an honorable man to run to the fight. So many would would not. You are proud for good reason. They did not call them the Greatest Generation for naught. I loved in Hawaii for almost 12 years. My ex was also a submariner. You must have listened to Mr. Harold's tellings carefully. You said boat instead of ship. I visited the pass where the enemy planes flew through. Goodness, I am going on. Thank you for sharing your story about Uncle Harold. I do appreciate you for telling it. I believe as long as the stories are being told, and the names are mentioned, the ancestors are not dead. So with that, I would like to say, "Thank you for your service, Uncle Harold."
@@arlenerichardson1329thank you so much for that kind comment Arlene. My uncle Harold was a hell of a guy and has a really special place in my heart. As a young boy he treated me with the kindness that I wished my own father would have done. He always had a joke to tell and would tell me stories about when they were out to sea on their War patrols. Those were the only times when I saw a seriousness and a somberness come over him. To know my uncle Harold is to love him! Thanks again!❤
Gentlemen, I have subscribed to your Outstanding program. I have been listening to these episodes as "Background Noise" while I do my college homework and it has the rare ability to allow me to focus on BOTH simultaneously. When I complete my degree program, both of you can consider yourselves "Associate Professors" in helping me get there (Jon Parshall is #3) Mahalo Nui Loa!!
I started watching this series at Episode 113 a while back and had not gone back to the beginning. Re: Pearl Harbor and detailed history the best I've seen is "At Dawn We Slept" by Gordon W. Prange. I think it's a great book and goes into incredible detail of both sides of the run up to Dec 7. He also goes into a lot of detail the misunderstanding of the threat by Kimmel and Short.
Thank you for creating such an amazing series. I deeply respect your efforts to stay factual and humanism the realities of war. This is how history shoukd be taught. In a small way you're helping push back the next great war. Maybe you should translate this series to Cantonese...
Great show . Very little known fact - Japan lost 29 aircraft in a surprise attack against a slumbering enemy . Nagumo was very well aware of his losses . The loss were a minor contributing factor in his decision not to lunch a third wave . Not surprisingly most of those losses were in the second wave when American anti-air was alerted .
Great discussion of the driving factors behind the Japanese decision to attack Pearl Harbor. There are a couple of points you raise that I think are worth mentioning. Alan Zimm in his book on Pearl Harbor looks at what might have happened of US Forces had been more alerted that morning. His research shows that had the fleet gone to GQ and the Army been able to launch its fighters prior to the attack beginning the Japanese might well have taken very heavy losses. Losses that might well have effectively incapacitated multiple Japanese carriers through losses to their air groups. His analysis of the consequences of hitting the oil tanks shows that the impact would not have been significant with the fleet able to make good those losses in relatively short order. Finally Zimm looks at the midget sub issue and makes a very strong argument that no a midget sub isn’t seen in that photo and one did not actually manage to torpedo Oklahoma. If you haven’t read Zimm’s book I highly recommend it. I think it’s potentially as revolutionary to our understanding of the Pearl Harbor attack as Shattered Sword was to Midway.
As a former Naval Air Reserve and later an Air Force Reserve flight surgeon, communicating in the ER reminds me of the communication from the radar station on Opana Point. If they had reported about 180 targets inbound, or may be over 10, the new officer likely would have realized it was not a flight of 5 B-17s.
Thanks That's an excellent point. So would a dozen picket boats with good radios off Oahu. I'm not sure the pilots and ships at General Quarters would have changed the outcome vs. Kido Butai
Here again to start this amazing series over from the beginning as i continue to watch currently....as a history addict since age 11.....60 years ago....Im thinking this is the best historical series i ve ever seen.....hats off and many thanks to you Seth and Bill and special guests Jon and all others....simply awesome 👍👍👍
Hi. I just stumbled across your page, the battle of the Bismarck sea podcast, and enjoyed it enough to start from the beginning. The only thing I would argue or question is why Kimmel and Short held accountable and MacArthur wasn't. This alone makes the persecution of K&S were disingenuous and hypocrisy
Excellent program. As to American (and most western) attitudes to the Japanese and their military capabilities, we need to look no further than the Russo Japanese War of 1905. The Japanese were superb, partic at the naval Battle of Tshushima Straits. Western racial prejudice clouded our eyes to the ability and ruthlessness of the Japanese warrior caste and their ability to fight. Now we look to the same country to assist us in addressing Chinese hegemony, as Seth and Bill discussed. Great episode, thank you both.
Ed Beach was writing about Kimmell and Short because his father had been caught in a similar situation when his ship was grounded off Santo Domingo, and totaled . The ship had two names USS Memphis and USS Tennessee.
I fear you both are correct when it comes to it can happen to us again. One distressing thought that plagues me are the frequent naval collisions happening in the Pacific today. I think the last one a destroyer impacted an oil tanker?! I would love to hear the Sub Commander's thoughts on that!
Those kinds of collisions are inexcusable. Back in the mid-90s while I was serving as XO I led a study to reinforce mariner training among ship's officers. In my view, learning how to fight a ship as a warrior is a very different and in many cases contradicting discipline than basic mariner skills as one is called upon to use during peacetime. My study indicated that in our zeal to focus on warfighting, we had neglected basic mariner training. My recommendation then had been to separate officer mariner training from warrior training, to focus on mariner skills first, and only when proficient at that, then to begin the training on how to fight the ship. When these 7th Fleet collisions occurred, it became clear to me that the same defect was now presenting itself again. The Navy is again relearning that painful lesson, and is again learning what proper mariner training looks like and how to do it.
I would like to hear about the San Francisco’s incident in the early 2000’s. One of my section leaders in A school was a sonar tech on the San Francisco and he was getting reclassified as an engineer. Not sure if it was his decision or the Navy’s. We gave that guy a tough time and it wasn’t until later that I realized how bad it actually was.
What an incredible and outstanding series .....so long over due and discussed in plan language by experts. It is loaded with truth and candor, totally lacking is excuses, coverups and myths; but a serious look at what actually happened and why. The leading characters in the Pacific campaign are clearly examined, unvarnished by the fog of war, and the chips fall where they may. It's an excellent series that I have watched fully once and will review many more time....grab your note books, perhaps a beer or two and enjoy this excellent series of the Pacific war.
Seth, the comment you made about your opinion on the Japanese mini sub that attacked the Oklahoma blew my mind! I had no earthly clue that they had gotten in and did that kind of work!❤
Was stationed at NAS Barbers Point 84-87, and enjoyed seeing the history all around Oahu. The seeds of WW2 with Japan, I believe began with RADM Perry’s trip to Hawaii in the 19th century.
Great discussion. I think one of the most eye opening insights into the dismissive mindset of the military leadership towards the threat naval aviation posed is contained in Dusty Kleiss's book before he died. Dusty talked about his impression of Admiral Kimmel's attitude toward naval aviation. Spot on that the men at the top were culpable.
Informative and entertaining show. I’ve alwYs felt bad for Kimmel and Short because they were scapegoats but they truly ignored high level warnings and did nothing. The take away is that resp for protecting against an attack wasn’t responsibility of either the Army or the Navy, it was both. Kimmel and Short should have gotten their respective joint service teams together immediately after Stinson’s letter in Jan 1941 and req’d them to map-out a defense strategy and plan for protecting against an attack on Pearl Harbor. Instead, they did nothing. Same thing could be said of McArthur in the Philippines.
I have read that in the late 1920's, Billy Mitchell and Yamamoto like to hang out in the Naval Club in Washington and play poker. One of the topics of discussion was always the problem of how to attack Pearl Harbor from the air. Another point I have come across in reading was that part of the problem with Naval Intelligence at Pearl was that no one could figure out how it made any sense for the Japanese to attack the US. Remember that at this point in the war, the Germans had control of Holland, Belgium and France, and that the Japanese therefore had access to all sorts of resources in their respective colonies in the Far East. Beyond that, I wouldn't put it past intelligence in Washington, whether or not it included Roosevelt, to decide that if the Japanese were going to attack the antiquated battleships in Pearl Harbor, that it would be much better to have them attack those ships in the harbor rather than on the open ocean. Just consider how many experienced sailors might have been lost if all the ships that went down did so on the open ocean. And how the hell could one tell Kimmel to not sail if he knew the Japanese were going to attack? And I do have one more favorite topic, which is just what might have resulted in Pearl if the Japanese had brought their fleet into gun range after the air attacks?
My father was with the 19th infantry that day at Schofield, so I have spent some time on this. The 24th division had a war warning that week. I also think the carriers were out because of this warning which sent aircraft to midway. Both sides made gross mistakes. The Japanese in not taking out the oil storage and the US in not having any CAP or sending out a PBY or B-17 to follow the Vals back to their fleet. My father was in the pacific until the spring of 1945, under dig out Doug. Crossed the Owen Stanleys with the Aussie's, Bona-Gona, Atapi, Hollandia and Leyte - He ended up an alamo scout which you should cover some day - (I know not navy). I got to meet Welch and Gabby at reunions - Your series is superb - accurate and well documented history.
I never knew about the midget submarines making it into the harbor. I had heard a lot about the USS Ward sinking a midget sub, but never put any the thought into whether there was more than one. It makes sense that there were more, but hearing it for the first time surprised the hell out of me. I always enjoy listening to history about the WW2 in the Pacific, and I will definitely be following this podcast. Please keep up the excellent work, I love how the discussion is layed out!
Five midget subs were launched. One was reported sunk by the USS Ward, and a second one by USS Monaghan, a third either malfunctioned or had a navigational error and found on the beach and captured on December 8. A fourth was found offshore in 1960, and a fifth in 1990. At least one has been theorized to have made it into the harbor and left and then sank. A photograph has been interpreted by some people to show two trails from torpedoes that could not have been fired from an airplane.
@@Ensign_Nemo 5 midget subs? Oh wow....I guess that makes sense now that I think about it. If only 1/5 made it into the harbor then it wouldn't have been a prudent decision for the IJN to launch just 1 or 2. Thank you for the information you provided there! BTW, the only picture I could seem to find was a blurry image of the Oklahoma (potentially the victim of the submarine torpedoes I believe?), but I couldn't really discern torpedo trails. Do you know if there is a higher resolution picture of the torpedo trails and where I might be able to find it? I'm definitely interested in learning more about it now lol
About those Kate Torpedo planes, there were two squadrons that attacked, one from the Akagi, and the other from the Kaga. Kaga's planes were second to attack, and 5 of them were shot down.
History doesn't repeat itself I do not think; but it most definitely rhymes. Been enjoying your great show gentleman. Fyi; I had two grandfather's who served in this theatre; both holding Pacific Star et.al. One in 2/6th Field Ambulance serving in New Guinea; Moratai and Borneo (Balikpapan and Nth thereof). . The other was Sapper; Leuitenant in Army Engineers. He had to return from Middle East (having been un what is now Israel; Lebanon etc.) to help see of the Japanese threat. One American pilot mistook their ship on the way home once and had a go. Not the best welcome back. They were heading for Singapore but it fell mid trip they heard; so straight back to Oz. Keep these great shows coming please. . ... Sam; Adelaide Sth Australia
Excellent discussion and presentation. You are to be commended for presenting the positive copy of the "Death of the Arizona" film. Somehow over the years the 'negative' print (that showing the fatal explosion on the left side of the screen) became the the dominant copy. This mistake, along with the photo of Billy the Kid showing the loading gate of his Winchester rifle being on the left side of the receiver, are two negative copies of a film/photo that somehow became the norm. The photo of Billy the Kid made historians believe that he was left handed, Hollywood certainly thought so. Looking forward to following your site until its conclusion. Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
I've been a subscriber since episode 104. Today is my first time actually watching the very first episode. There WAS reason to believe we would go to war with Germany. The US NAVY was already in an undeclared shooting war with German submarines. In fact; Pres Roosevelt never declared war against Germany. Hitler declared war against us.
Thanks for this video. I get SO TIRED of the Kimmel apologists. And there is another point you missed. He was in Command. I'm a retired USAF officer, and I learnt that, even if you follow every rule in the book, and fail your mission, you are responsible. You need to succeed, even if you have to break every rule in the F*&in' book - get it done. At the end of the day, Kimmel failed - period. What was Roosevelt supposed to do, leave Kimmel in command? Insanity.
You are correct. Short was also an officer of limited vision. He constantly ignored the portents in favour of an insistence on "training". He also paid the price, sadly but deservedly so.
@@mpetersen6 Yes, it was, which is why Gen Short was relieved. I think that the California had all of the bulkhead open for inspection, other ships had all their ammo locked up. None were manned in a way that a 'war warning' should have made obvious. Also, the fact that a sub was torpedoed just outside the harbor was ignored by the Navy. Other people should have shared his fate, agreed, but what was Roosevelt to do? Leave the two commanders in place?
@@swdierks Oh Short and Kimmel had to go. No question about that. There's another factor involved in the general lack of response to the war warning. They'd had two or three previous ones. The boy who cried wolf thing. And the midget sub sunk by the Ward. Sunk by gunfire.
Guys, I would be totally okay with listening to this for another 3-4 hours. I am a history nerd, mostly in WW2 and medieval times, and I discovered your channel just an hour ago- I think I’m about to become a high-functioning addict. THANK YOU for pointing out the equal racism, and that it was both militarist and expansionist (and resource-driven) views of Japan that applied. However, I would LOVE to hear your educated (and please, non-biased views) of Japanese invasion of China- including Nanjing. If you would include some histiry pros that are female/women/gender-neutral guests too, that would be ABSOLUTELY AMAZING. History often gets caught up within gender biases (and the most feminist man EVER still can’t relate unless they grew up female/presenting as a girl) and I think that we, GLOBALLY, need to address that whenever possible. But. This is completely great in itself. Thank you for such a balanced view, and acknowledging the conspiracies and mud-throwing over the years, and thank you for such balance.
Great video but I wish to add a small correction. 51:31 The Lusitania was not the event that caused the US to declare war on Germany in WW1. The Lusitania was sunk on May 07, 1915. The US declared war on April 06, 1917 almost 2 years later.
Hey Guys, been following this channel for a while. Just coming back to review from Ep 1 and It has raised a couple of questions. I do hope you see comments this far back. Q1: Where there any US miltary on duty in Japan at the time and what about diplomatic staff, did they get interned in Japan or where they allowed to leave and if so how ? Q2: What happened to the Japanese consular staff in Washington after they delivered the belated ultimatum ?
Something I picked up down the line and desire your take: Were not plans ever lined up as a means of prevention of sabotage? Thanks excellent research and pinpoint delivery. You cats are aces in my book.
I *think* I remember reading or hearing or seeing that a surprised Japanese pilot noted in his journal that a US marine stood up facing him firing a hand gun (.45 ?) at his plane during a strafing run. Anyone have any info or sources on that ?
Item number 5 for Bill to consider: One point about Yamamoto's strategy is that the attack was not supposed to be a total surprise given the timing of the message by Japanese diplomats in D.C. The fact that it was a surprise galvanized American opinion to such a degree that we would not have accepted a diplomatic solution regardless of how many early battles we lost in the war!
I have seen and very much enjoyed many of your podcasts. I chose this episode to ask a question I have wondered about for some time because it deals with the beginning. What would have happened if the Dec 7 attacks had excluded Hawaii and the Phillipines? The oil that was needed was available in the Dutch East Indies. The Japanese were already in the Tripartite Agreement and could have attacked British, Dutch, French possessions "legally." What would the U.S. reaction have been considering the political strength of the "America First" movement at the time?
Quote> Pearl Harbor had welded us, in one Sabbath moment of blazing affront, into a fighting nation; the 13 colonies didn't fight as wholeheartedly for their revolution as we did for islands in the Pacific as obscure before 1941 as pockmarks on the moon. John Updike - LIFE (Collector's Edition) Pearl Harbor
Just started watching your podcast. Not sure if I'm upset that you started at 101 and there for aren't a hundred back episodes for me to catch up on or relieved. Think I'm more disappointed really, this was an interesting conversation.
I don't think that Kimmel should have gotten completely scapegoated. My main criticism of him has to do with the "workweek" mentality of his fleet. This predictability invited the attack by making the fleet an inviting target on a weekend. As far as fleet defense, itself, that was NOT Kimmel's brief, that belonged to Claude Bloch of the 14th Naval District, who, seems to have escaped censure. As far as Short, again, he, in no way, had enough defensive resources to repel the attack, but, his mistake was misinterpreting the threat. Much like Emmons, Short was more concerned about subversive activities of Japanese/American citizens, and the possibility of sabotage. The lack of dispersion of the aircraft made them easy targets. And the lack of even a token CAP or any kind of defensive scouting, seems careless, even in peacetime. I doubt that, even if the Air Corps had gotten formations aloft, that there would have been enough tactical coordination among the "green" pilots that could have given them much air to air success. There was just too much underdeveloped doctrine, even to the point of having no doctrinal plan to coordinate things like Radar, interception plotting, ground/air communication and the like. The P-40 was designed as a pursuit plane, and would have been at a huge disadvantage at the low altitude dogfighting needed to intercept the incoming waves of attack. Admiral Richardson saw the shortcomings of the half measure defenses in forward deployments, and judged that Pearl was not even close to being defensible. History has vindicated his judgement on the matter. Enjoying your discussion, I had started with some of your Midway ones, and, found them interesting. I would defend F.J. Fletcher, however, as he was smeared by more politically astute "Monday morning QB" types, and by S. E. Morrison, who he had no time for, having been on OPs, basically, since the war's beginning, where, he, a non-aviator, had to try untested doctrines that were forced upon the Pacific Fleet, by the savaging of the BBs, and the, apparent, lack of trust given to Admiral Pye, who seemed to have little confidence of Nimitz. Fletcher's early war successes were critical, and his adherence to force conservation kept the US active in Operations through 1942. Spruance gets credit for Midway, but, Fletcher was the SOAF. It was Fletcher who did the proper scouting. It was Fletcher that kept the Yorktown in reserve until the exactly proper time, to recover his scouts and launch that deckload strike that took down Soryu. And it was Fletcher who showed the good judgement not to go glory seeking by demanding operational command after Yorktown got hammered by the 1st counterstrike. Midway belongs to Fletcher as much as it does to Spruance, and more than it does to Spruance's subordinate, Mitscher.
On your points wrt Kimmel and Short, perhaps it will make you feel better that NHHC Director Sam Cox likely agrees with you! And Seth did say that if we got aircraft aloft during the Pearl Harbor attack, our death toll would likely have been higher. On the Fletcher point-- stay tuned for future episode with Jon Parshall where we will explore the operational level commanders of the Pacific, to include Fletcher.
@@UnauthorizedHistoryPacificWar BUT if even moderate numbers of fighter aircraft had been been aloft at dawn, 7 december, especially if out to sea headed towards nagumos carriers, alerted by the sea and air patrols that should have been out and maintained well enough to spot the kido butai as it manuvered to its launch position, the disruption of the incoming aerial assault would have been significant IF NOT CANCELLED. if fleet and land antiaircraft batteries were at a hightened state of alert ALSO, as they likely would have been, the japanese attack certainly would have been less effective--tho the difference in loss of life cannot be determined, such alertness with existising resources almost certainly would reduce the damage. such alertness might even have caused have caused nagumo to cancell the attack of his second wave and steam off to protect his carriers from a possible retaliatory strike???
thanks again. I remember how shocking and surprising the 9/11 attacks were; never imagined this could happen, but if you look closer there were plenty of warnings and "intelligence'. I suspect the brass at Hawaii were caught out the same way; they could not have imagined a strike at that distance at that time and in that political situation.
That might have made a difference if the USN higher echelons had considered Japanese history, and realized that they were risk-takers. Because the U.S. Navy leadership could not envision the IJN striking over 4,000 miles when the low-hanging fruit was at the Philippines and the British base at Singapore didn’t mean the Japanese would think the same way.
I am surprised that there was no reference of the Royal Navy surprise attack of the Italian Naval facility in Toranto. Very similar to Pearl, shallow harbor, modified British torpedoes and tactics. Caught the attention of the Japanese.
@@UnauthorizedHistoryPacificWar Dear Mrs. Admiral Toti, I humbly request you all Capt, (retired) Bill Toti to regrow his awesome and fierce goatee back, please?
I'm not sure how many are aware of it, but in the movie "Here comes the Navy" starring James Cagney and Patrick O'Brien, there are a number of scenes shot on board the USS Arizona. I believe a number of her crew are extras in the movie as well. It's a little odd to think about the ships subsequent fate. Moffit field as well with what, if memory serves, is the dirigible Shenandoah.
I am 76 years old. Recently found my daddy's records. He enlisted in 1932, USMC, New Orleans. He retired 1952, Camp Lejeune. Twenty years of records; almost 100 pages
I knew he had been at Pearl Harbor, Midway, Palmyra, and Okinawa. I never knew he was at Peleliu. He received a letter of commendation and ribbon from General Roy Geiger for meritorious bravery.
I was so excited to find your podcast. Thank you...Semper Fi.
Good Lord! That's a heck of a record!
Indeed it was. He was a heck of a man. Thank you.
And a survivor of Peleliu, probably the least favorite island battle of the War. God blessed him, and by extension his legacy....Semper Fi, indeed.
I'm watching episode 101, the Inaugural eposode of the Unauthorized History of the Pacific War at 1747, 3/14/2024, and at 30:30 of the episode, Captain Toti is beginning his comparison of the readiness of the American government, services commands in Kimmel and Short, the political situations, near and far, and the lessons that we had thrust upon us then and in the terrible war that followed, which we learned at great cost. He voices his fear that these lessons are getting very dusty during a time of the unraveling of the Pax Americana of the past 80 years. In reality the USA has been on a war footing since the Attack on Pearl Harbor on December 7th, 1941, with some delusional days before real war in Korea awoke us to the reality of the so called Cold War with the Russians and Chinese that began with the Korean armistice on July 27, 1953. That war has never truly ended. The 38th parallel is a defended border between South and North Korea. The USA still has troops manning those😢 guard towers, and our Nuclear umbrella so far has kept the Nuclear North on their own side. This is only one of the active and unfinished wars burning or smoldering.
We have carrier battle groups in harms way, and frankly in a 😮mobile Pearl Harbor. I share Captain Toti's concerns about the dusty lessons. I know that politics are verboten here. I hope my shared concerns aren't crossing no man's land. Maybe we can begin to 😢get back by comparing Admiral King's and General Ridgeway's shared temperament and outlooks. The world has been at war a long time now, and we're still needing our sonsabitches somewhere. Ready.
He sounds like "a Marine's Marine"....Pearl, Midway, Peleliu AND Okinawa. May God bless his memory.
We have to note something here: If the battleships had been warned, what would happen? If they got underway and left the harbor and been attacked with similar results OUTSIDE the harbor, they woul;d have been sunk in deep water and never recovered except as scrip. We would have shot down more Japanese planes, but that is of no real consequence. What happened is probably about the best result that could have occurred. The ships were mostly recovered and made even better eventually. Also, this attack by aircraft carriers instantly turned the US Navy into a submarine/aircraft carrier force and made the effectiveness of carriers obviously much more dangerous than any battleship force could possibly be in the huge Pacific Ocean. Bad way to get educated, but nobody could possibly argue against such power. Shortened the war a lot.
Realistically, even if Ward's warning was heeded and the radar operator didn't just dismiss them as B17s there wasn't enough time for many ships in the harbor to get under way. They would have to light boilers and bring them up to steam and that isn't something that can be done quickly. Only reason Nevada got underwear is that she already had two boilers lit.
Also, had the planes been scrambled our loss of trained pilots would be pretty heavy. Those planes weren’t up to taking on the zero.
That's basically Nimitz's opinion.
@@robertphillips9017in particular the pilots weren’t up to taking on the Japanese- yet
The months of intense training and minor scraps that led to the bigger ones at Coral and after helped quickly improve their skills
What kills me is this......MacArthur got off scot free whereas Kimmel and Short were hung out to dry for exactly the same offense. Which was not acting on the war warning message. In fact, MacArthur was even further at fault as he had advanced warning after the Japanese attached Pearl.
This may sound dumb, but it only occurred to me during this video that POTUS/FDR had to have received that detailed 2/41 "war warning" (and the one subsequent) from Stimson as well. I'm not at all leaning towards conspiracy. I am, however stunned by our overall complacency. And yeah, we didn't respect the Japanese. Had nothing to do with race. Had everything to do with "we're America!!!" post-WWI. "Tiny little island nation, what could they possibly do to us?"
There were several things going on prior to Pearl Harbor that are often given short shrift, if mentioned at all.
1) Japan's economy ran on coal (about 2/3rds of domestic power) and hydroelectric. (BTW, oil didn't supplant coal as #1 source of power in the US until the 1960s). On the eve of Pearl Harbor Japan only had about 6,000 miles of paved roads and about 11,500 miles of rail, a lot of it in cities that were served by electrified street cars and some petrol fueled. (Japan's land is 54% larger than Britain's and Britain had nearly 20,000 miles of rail before WWII.) Japan is a very mountainous country, maritime shipping is cheap, and its major cities are on the coast. A lot of Japan's domestic maritime commerce was handled by littoral steamers powered by coal. Oil was needed by military, chiefly the navy and army aviation. When Japan quit the Washington and London treaties and began to expand the navy it shifted resources into industries requiring a lot more power - steel making, aluminium smelting, and ship building. A cost of this expansion was the reduction of Japan's exports and foreign exchange earnings. Japan's war economy from 1937 onwards greatly depleted its foreign reserves - the decisive battle to defeat China in weeks didn't pan out. In '34, '35, and '36, military spending was 44.2%, 46.8%, and 48.4% of the government's expenditure, respectively. In '37, '38, and '39 it shot to over 70%. - in '38 it was 75.4%. And the government expenditure increased 466% from 1932 to 1940. The military was bleeding Japan dry.
2) Though the US was the world's largest producer of oil, the world's largest exporter in the 1930s was Venezuela. Yet, Japan imported very little oil from it directly. Why? Japan had few oil tankers though it had the world's third largest merchant maritime fleet - about 5%. Norway, the world's 4th largest merchant fleet (4%), had about 250 oil tankers, which was 40% of the world's tanker fleet not owned by oil companies and 18% of all tankers. In late '39, the British contracted service of 150 of these Norwegian tankers, which were the amongst the world's most modern. With Germany's invasion of Norway, the remaining tankers came under British contract. Further, the Dutch tankers came under British contract as the Netherlands was a wartime ally. Moreover, with Mexico's nationalisation of the petrol industry in '38, Britain refused to carry Mexican oil, which removed much of its output from the world market. Later the US persuaded Britain to end its sanctions, and its oil went to the US and Britain. Of the 49 (49!?) oceangoing tankers Japan possessed in 1940, 33 were capable of 16 knots or better. Little Norway had five times more tankers than Japan. Off of America's Atlantic and Gulf coasts in '42 the Allies lost three times the tankers Japan possessed. The Allies were losing tankers here, there, and everywhere yet the oil kept flowing.
3) With Japan's invasion of China in '37, even more oil was shifted to the military. Petrol rationing for personal use such as cars was introduced in '38, two years before the US ceased aviation fuel exports to Japan and three years before crude. Japan couldn't increase its imports _at a time when there were no trade restrictions_ because it was running out of money. Moreover, the number of non-government vehicles in Japan was about 1% of that in the US. Private oil consumption in Japan was very low compared to the US and Western Europe. With the banning of aviation fuel exports to Japan in '40, Japan increased crude imports and began refining aviation fuel at home.
4) In 1940, Japan sought to diversity its oil imports from the US to the Dutch East Indies. On 12 Sep '40, a delegation led by Ichizo Kobayashi, Minister of Commerce and Industry, started negotiations in Batavia (later Jakarta) for the purchase of Dutch oil and the acquisition of oil fields and exploration rights in the East Indies. Tokyo wanted 50% of the islands' production, which would have required much more Dutch shipping at the expense of Britain's cause. At the time the East Indies supplied about 10% of Japan's crude. Ten days later Japanese troops entered neutral French Indochina - this surely rattled the Dutch. On 27 September, Tokyo joined the Tripartite Pact with Germany and Italy, and because the Netherlands was at war with and occupied by the Germans, the stance of the East Indies colonial government stiffened. Perhaps Tokyo wagered these moves would sufficiently strike fear in Governor-General Van Mook and he would cave. He didn't. By October 1940, negotiations had reached a deadlock. The Japanese were told that the Dutch government was not an oil merchant; Japan would have to negotiate with the oil companies. Japan demanded to pay in yen. The Dutch replied only guilders and dollars were accepted. Japan then demanded 3.5 million tons of crude and aviation fuel. The Dutch replied that most of its production was already contracted with others. In the end, Japan got about one-third its demand and no aviation fuel.
5) In the autumn of 1940, the idea that there was only one way to resolve the stalemate in the Sino-Japanese War spread through the Japanese military. The theory of the southward advance rapidly became a reality in the national defence concept. From March '41 to May '41, Japan drafted and formulated the Principles Governing the Administrative of the Occupied Southern Territories (Dutch East Indies, British Malaya and North Borneo, etc) - this was before America's embargo of crude oil in '41.
6) Japan was attempting to prevent trade with China by the US and Europe years before the US responded in kind. Its navy ran interdiction patrols of China's coast. China’s main seaports were occupied. Japan's invasion of Indochina was to cut off China from a vital trade route. In 1939, Japan blockaded the Anglo-French concession in Tientsin to force the Europeans to submit to several Japanese demands including handing over the silver reserves stored in Chinese banks in the concession. Japan was attempting to establish the yen bloc in China, but many Chinese refused to use the Japanese-issued occupation currency.
7) Japan had 16 billion barrels of oil underfoot in Manchuria and didn't know it - the Daqing oilfields, which became China's largest. Geologic surveys conducted by the Japanese earlier had found bitumen, but they didn't keep pushing on with exploration. Further, Japan's economic practices in Manchuria sought to limit participation in the economy by the Europeans and Americans. Had they permitted exploration perhaps this black gold would have been discovered.
The US didn't manoeuvre Japan into a corner. Tokyo did so all by itself. Much of the problem was its magical thinking - the belief in the decisive battle. This had it invade China in '37, thinking it would be a walkover. (A repeat of the Imjin War.) It then did so against the USSR and Mongolia in '39, and suffered a walloping. 'Let's go fight Britain and America instead.' Thinking the Dutch East Indies would sell Japan 50% of its oil and accept payment in useless yen was really magical thinking. Pearl Harbor was another 'the decisive battle'. And Midway. Magical thinking progressed through WWII, Japan seeking the decisive battle after the previous decisive battle. And it refused to learn each time reality failed to meet deranged expectations. The outcomes of decisive-battle thinking cascaded. They didn't plan logistics thoroughly. Unlike Germany, Japan actually captured a major oil source yet couldn't sustain it against the US which had the rubbish Mark 14 torpedo until mid '43. Imagine how much more trouble Japan would have been in in '42 if the US had a reliable torpedo. Japan had good long-range submarines and didn't recognise or appreciate the havoc Germany's were causing in '42. Japan doing so along America's Pacific coast as well as the Panama Canal could have given the US a lot of heartburn. Squandered resource.
Superb analysis . Many fact I discovered here, although have studied this period for years . Kudos !!!
Very good writeup
Nice writeup
Yikes
An excellent series, thank you for all your hard work and effort. I'm an Irish man living in Ireland who has always been intrigued by ww2 in the Pacific. The sheer enormity of all aspects of the theatre, distances, numbers of men, ships, planes, supply tonnages, just everything is almost incomprehensible.
I just spent half an hour looking for episode 1 only to find that the whole series starts with episode 101!
Well done
Great observation. I did the same as you.
Considering this is College level course work, without the tuition, it's Pacific War 101. Did you have family in that theater during the war? Just asking.
@@kilcar No, my uncle died on the Hood, and my father worked on spitfires with Barnes Wallis
Outstanding show. Very well presented. Don’t be “a fear’d” to turn the show into two hour episodes either. Don’t know what you base your present time limitations on, but I’m sure there are plenty of us who would love to hear a multi-hour presentation.
Thanks for that!
Are you from Dorset, by any chance?
@@AndrewGivens - Not sure if you were asking me, but no, not from Dorset.
I am one who would like longer. Episodes
Oh I could listen to the perspectives of others, especially those who served in a given location.
Drach is well known and understood to be very knowledgeable but there’s so much more to an event.
Thank you for using the time the pandemic blessed some of us with for the right thing.
I think that the PTO has not been given the same coverage as the ETO and this podcast is helping to redress that problem. I have read several books on the PTO and this podcast will likely fill in some blank spots those books did not cover. I hope your subscriber count increases as the quality of your content is very high.
We agree-- this is why we are going the podcast. Thanks for the good wishes
Subscribers will definitely increase. Tons of knowledge and a good instinct for this format. Can't miss!
The CBI theater is yelling at you
@@thejohnbeck Good point. The Chindits did some amazing work with very little but guts and quinine.
Yes! For sure.
Doing some casual research on Yamamoto I found he never made the sleeping giant or rifle behind every blade of grass quotes and I couldn’t even find a definitive source for the run wild quote. And Bill was talking about how the torpedo bombers had to fly low and slow through the AA flack but I think they were in the first wave only so I doubt they had many people shooting at them. And yes the oil tanks would have been an easy juicy target but I think the US had a lot of oilers they could have brought in from the west coast as a temporary replacement until they were rebuilt. For anyone interested in the aftermath and salvage operations at PH, Drachinifel has an excellent multi part series on it. Good show guys!
Didn't the Japanese plan to bomb the oil storage tanks on Oahu but decided enough of the US ships had been sunk and thus enough damage was inflicted that they just abandoned the plan for another wave of attack (which would've hit the oil storage tanks)?
Where would they have stored 5 million gallons of oil?
I didn't pick up on your podcast until halfway through the first season, so I felt that it was time for me to go back to the beginning and catch up. And you picked the perfect way to start. I have done a LOT of reading about WW II in the PTO since I was in high school roughly 64 years ago. I worked in the school library and was the assistant librarian. It gave me unfettered access to a LOT of pertinent reference materials that were not supposed to leave the library proper, lol. I had always been a fan of Victory at Sea on television and was drawn to the Pacific in particular. The best thing in the library for me was the complete set of Samuel Eliot Morison's History of U. S. Naval Operations in WW II. I read every volume from cover to cover and decided that the PTO was the place for me. There were also so many great books by well respected historians. As far as Pearl Harbor is concerned, I was always looking for what happened to cause the catastrophe and read all of the known books at the time, John Toland, Gordon Prange and the like. It wasn't until I was a bit older when I started delving into the conditions in Asia before WW II started, going back to post-WW I and Japan's feeling that they were shortchanged in the aftermath. They ended up getting mandates over the Carolines, Marshalls and other important former Imperial German colonies and territories. These became their strongholds during the runup to WW II and after. I came across the story of USMC Lt. Col. Earl "Pete" Ellis and his quest in working on the doctrine of amphibious warfare, with special interest in the mandated areas I previously mentioned. He was the USMC's principal theorist on the subject, which laid down the basis for the amphibious campaign in the Central Pacific and the South Pacific. Unfortunately, he was an alcoholic, and died in 1923 when on a supposed covert mission to reconnoiter the Palau Islands. The general opinion is that he died because of his alcohol problems.
In later years I found that there were several authors who delved deeply into the historical and social issues that helped foment the enmity between the US and Japan. H P Willmott's "Empires In The Balance" and Richard Frank's excellent first volume of his trilogy of the war in the Pacific, "Tower of Skulls are among the best. As respects whether or not the attack on Pearl Harbor was preventable or inevitable, I have to agree with both of you, it was going to happen. It's just by a set of circumstances that the attack was very damaging on one hand, and beneficial on another. The loss of oil tank farms, machine shops, drydocks and the like would have been a true catastrophe and force the US to project the war from San Diego, which could have added years to the war. Another factor as far as early warning is concerned is that there would not have been any appreciable benefit from it. In fact, if there had been time to sortie the fleet, that also would have been a catastrophe, as the ships would have been sunk in deeper water and with proportionally higher casualties. If fighters had been able to scramble and set up a CAP, they would have been at the mercy of the best fighter pilots on the planet at the time flying the finest fighter on the planet. The casualties would have been ruinous and would have set back the pilot training programs. There are so many "what if's" and "could have been's" that are completely worthless. The US was extremely fortunate that they had the wherewithal and guts to claw back into serious offensive action a little more than 6 months after Pearl Harbor. And when you talk about US arrogance about Japan, there is a similar arrogance by the Japanese about the combat prowess and intestinal fortitude of the American people when it came to a bloody war. There were bloody surprises for both sides.
Me too. This is excellent stuff.
@@richardbennett1856 There is no comparable source anywhere today to match Seth and Bill and their amazing guests. In fact, Jon Parshall is a regular contributor to the Naval Institute at Annapolis and a very-well noted historian on all things regarding naval history.
I was 18 when I first went to Pearl Harbor. My Dad would never talk about the war to me. He would relay the stories to my brothers instead.
The indentations of enemy bullets were still visible on the walls at the submarine base. I would run my hands across them and try to imagine the horrors of that morning. My dad was on Ford Island getting ready for chapel. He said there were no officers anywhere. He was trained in Anti-aircraft Artillery, so he began firing. When the ammunition ran out, he used his sidearm. The ammunition was still stowed on a ship. That's the only story he ever told me.
I have regrets about not knowing.
I was an empty headed 18 year old female from Mississippi when I went to live on Oahu. So much history; so much lost time on my part.
Thank you for your information. Certainly, there is fodder for me to look up and read. I have been working on a timeline and writing as much as I can for my children. The information you provided is greatly appreciated. Thank you, Sir, for replying to my post. I believe the attack was the only answer for the inevitable (and honorable) entry into the war for the United States.
My grandfather Richard Armstrong was on the U.S.S. Hornet battle of Santa Cruz. Survived. Adopted my mother and two brothers soon after WWII. Real men in those days.
So good to go back to where it all began! These podcasts have got better and better over the last year but to listen again from the beginning 👌🏻
Great show. Longer, lengthier discussions will not hurt my feelings at all. U guys rock.
You asked for errors:
55:45 Clearly a false conclusion. I could listen for 3 or 4 more hours and do not believe I am alone in this.
You both are a gift to people who want to learn more on the Pacific War.
Thank you
Came across your channel through watching some videos with Jon Parshall in them and wow....just wow, the level of detail and knowledge you guys have is unbelievable. I'm in the military and work in logistics, "...Amateurs talk strategy, professionals talk logistics..." I'd love to hear you do a podcast just on the logistical aspects of the PTO. The setup of the forward basing, the start of the replenishment at sea and so forth. What the Navy and supply ships were able to accomplish is just incredible.
This was an incredibly informative show. I really appreciate it. Did not know about Stinnett's deceptions.
Great job man! All I can say is knowledge and honor when I hear you guys!
Usually not hitting the oil tank farm is mentioned in many books and documentaries, but what is missed was the dry docks and the repair facilities. Those facilities were invaluable for the US Navy in the war to come.
How long would it have taken to repair or build new ones?
How do you take out dry docks with 500 pound bombs? Have you been in a dry dock before? They're massive and designed to hold back massive amounts of water. You would need a HMS Campbeltown situation to take one of those out.
You know what everyone does really miss about the Pearl Harbor attack? The cruisers. Only one was significantly damaged. Almost every Japanese pilot which was assigned to attack a cruiser went after a battleship. The cruisers, on both the American and Japanese sides, were both heavily used in 1942 and 1943. Just think of the war without the cruisers early on.
@@arisukak Even the Campbeltown was only only intended to take out the gates. I haven't looked at the layout for the Pearl Harbor drydocks, but torpedoing the gates might have knocked them out for a period of time.
Found your channel and am loving it ! Decided to go back to the beginning and. Catch up on the entire series. Bravo gentlemen!
Nice discussion, I came across your channel this week when digging into all things Midway and I'm enjoying the insights. 10's of millions of US citizens were "all in" turning the US Navy into the unstoppable force it was in '45 in less than a 1/2 dozen years.
I watched episode #1, year 2 yesterday. Congrats. Well played, and please keep playing/working.
Watching this first episode again for the first time in a long time. I had forgotten how polished Seth and Bill were from the get go!
I am current at #220 and now back at the beginning. Excellent, thank you for your time.
Hey guys. I just found your podcast randomly via the Guadalcanal part 2 episode and decided to start at the beginning.
I'm loving this discussion so far.
Thank you Seth and Captain Todi for the great discussion. You two are leaving us a legacy.
I just discovered this RUclips channel a couple of months ago and have since been, more or less randomly, watching these streams. I got addicted and figured I'd go back and start with Episode 101 and follow them through chronologically. So, here I am.
I finally clicked on one of your videos and I’m glad I did. I’m starting from the beginning and look forward to more episodes. I notice that it is following the war somewhat chronologically and I look forward to hearing about Tarawa, Okinawa, and my biggest “curiosity” is Peleliu.
One of my favorite books is “Helmet for my Pillow.” Bob Leckie has a knack for storytelling and humor.
He does indeed
You asked about suggestions, how about IJN Pilot Shigenori Nishikaichi who survived a crash landing on the island of Ni'ihau during the attack on Pearl Harbor? I think plenty of Americans have not heard about this, and also how ethnic Japanese residents attempted to aid Nishikaichi even after they learned of the Pearl Harbor attack. There are claims that this event spurred justification for Japanese internment during the war.
With regard to the reference to USS Ward at about 20:45, I like to draw the parallel between Ward on December 7, 1941 and Patterson on August 9, 1942, between William Outerbridge of Ward and Frank Walker of Patterson. In both cases, we have a singular shining example of alertness of mind and alacrity of action that stands in stark contrast to the fatal lethargy of mind present in other commanding officers, to great cost among their men. Ward, as you mentioned, attacked and sank a midget sub and radioed the warning to higher command. Patterson, at Savo Island, broadcast the first report of "Strange ships entering harbor" and rapidly opening fire, her response, as Richard Frank notes, characterized by "alacrity and intelligence".
I found your Podcasts interesting and informative, wish you well on the growth of your Channel. I feel that impact that the Naval modernization by the U.S. during the 1930's and Two Ocean Navy Act of 1940 is a factor in the Pearl Harbor attack that is not often explored. I would like to see a program on how we got the Navy that we had during WWII.
That would be a great episode. And yes, plenty to talk about there.
That being said, the prewar buildup of the Navy by FDR built, or at the very least modernized, the vessels that fought the first year of war. Fascinating topic. I absolutely love it.
-SP
First, let me say that I am delighted to have stumbled across your podcast series on the PTO, a period in history in which I have long had a deep interest. I have subscribed and look forward with relish to listening to your future podcasts and your insights on the air, surface and subsurface aspects of the Pacific conflict. Second, my question for you is to challenge what I believe to be conventional thinking on the beginnings of the war between the U.S. and the Japanese Empire. As I understand both of you have mentioned your belief in the inevitability of the conflict. However, I have always wondered if Japan may have misread the willingness of the U.S. to intervene militarily in its Pacific aspirations absent an attack on Pearl Harbor and the Philippines. Isolationist sentiment was extremely high in America pre-war and if Japan had gambled another way by not interdicting Pearl Harbor and just "sailing by" the Philippines as it were on its way to Malaya, Burma and the Dutch East Indies, would the U.S. have been willing to oppose Japan with force? Would you be willing to comment here or in a podcast on how the PTO might have been different in that instance?
This would make for an interesting episode.
@@UnauthorizedHistoryPacificWar I suppose this extends beyond the scope of your podcast series, but speculation could be made over whether the U.S. would have delayed or declined to enter WW2 at all without a Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor and the Philippines. After all, it was Hitler's decision to declare war on America that propelled our country into a two-front war. Without the Japanese attacks, there might not have been a one-front war (in the Pacific). Would Australia and Britain have had to go it alone in the PTO - and could they have? Lots of fascinating what-ifs here.
I agree with you about that Japan misread the US intentions and reactions if they had avoided the attack on Pearl Harbor and the Philippines
My dad was a new Navy pilot who witnessed the battle (he hadn't been assigned to a squadron yet, so by his description he was a bystander). He always said that Kermit Tyler wasn't to blame. He did feel that the report of a submarine attacked by USS Ward should've triggered an alert. in his words: "if you're going to have ships and planes patrolling, you should also trust the information those patrols provide." IMO, it would've made the job of the attackers much harder had there been anti-aircraft batteries manned and ready, and aircraft in the air with more at the ready.
Hey, great series guys, Nice work Bill and Seth, and lots of great guests too. I've seen about 5 or 6 of your podcasts by now here on RUclips. Unfortunatly not in order.
I read the Toland book way back then and I mostly bought his theory. I've also always been a fan of the year 1942 from the Doolittle Raid, to Midway to our establishing a toehold in the Solomons and beginning the long march back. I'm not a fan of dugout Doug either. I served in the Corps either active duty or active reserve for most of the 1970's.
This is Bill-- I still have my old, dog-eared copy and bought into this too when it came out. Then I started talking to real experts and the theories fell apart one-by-one.
Ok, Bill, now I don't feel so bad. Keep up the good work! And I appreciate the way you guys ask for feedback. Every other RUclips site says "LIKE, SHARE AND SUBSCRIBE." You and Seth are much more laid back and it's greatly appreciated.
Enjoyed the show very much and if you'd like to keep going on for two or three hours please do so!
Ha! We never actually plan for the episodes to go as long as they do, but once the conversations start, it's just organic!
Great show guys! I love the focus on the PTO and y’all are very easy to listen to. Keep it up and don’t shy away from long episodes and getting in to some deep dives!
Much appreciated!
Going back and rewatching. Thanks!
G'day Bill and Seth, after enthusiastically consuming your brilliant show for three excellent seasons, I've gone back to review your 'pilot' episode, I remember being so impressed by your excellent format at the time but looking at it today I hadn't realised how polished you both were from the 'get go'. Bravo Zulu!!!
Your comments about the P-40s would not have been all that effective (against zeros) if they were warned has some credence. However, the loaded Kates ( that did all the damage ) would have been juicy targets. Also, on the 3rd wave- I have read that the dry docks were also spared and they would have been excellent targets hindering ship repair capabilities. good discussion!
Gentleman, I'm new to your podcast and truly enjoy them. As for Pearl Harbor, my father was there. He was a chief on the New Orleans during the attack
I’ve stumbled on this a year late, but I’m commenting so the RUclips algorithm will hopefully promote the channel to more people
My Uncle Harold F Willard was a member of the Silent Service during World War II. On December 7th he and a buddy were sitting atop
Diamond Head enjoying the view that Sunday morning and they saw the whole attack go down. He said they scrambled down Diamond Head with their hearts in their throats trying to get back to their sub. When they got down to the main Highway the MP's and local police had all the roads closed and were ordering people back in their homes for safety. My Uncle never got back to his boat until later that day, early evening. I know that he carried some degree of guilt for the rest of his life for not getting back to his boat and his shipmates that day. Also, he had really bad ear problems the rest of his life from all of the crash dives and they had been depth-charged on several occasions. I'm really proud of my Uncle's contribution to the war. He was my favorite Uncle with a hell of a sense of humor and kindness. Rest in peace Uncle Harold, you answered the call, you did your job and you did it well!⚓️🇺🇲🙏💖🏝🍻😊
Your Uncle Harold would be very proud of this testament about him. He must have been an honorable man to run to the fight. So many would would not. You are proud for good reason. They did not call them the Greatest Generation for naught.
I loved in Hawaii for almost 12 years. My ex was also a submariner. You must have listened to Mr. Harold's tellings carefully. You said boat instead of ship. I visited the pass where the enemy planes flew through.
Goodness, I am going on. Thank you for sharing your story about Uncle Harold. I do appreciate you for telling it.
I believe as long as the stories are being told, and the names are mentioned, the ancestors are not dead. So with that, I would like to say, "Thank you for your service, Uncle Harold."
@@arlenerichardson1329thank you so much for that kind comment Arlene. My uncle Harold was a hell of a guy and has a really special place in my heart. As a young boy he treated me with the kindness that I wished my own father would have done. He always had a joke to tell and would tell me stories about when they were out to sea on their War patrols. Those were the only times when I saw a seriousness and a somberness come over him. To know my uncle Harold is to love him! Thanks again!❤
You guys provide an invaluable narration of actual history.
Keep up the good work.
Thank you! Will do!
WOW. I am 70 this year. Been studying WW2 since I was old enough to read. These guys are GREAT !
finally found the first broadcast, you guys should put them on a playlist in order from the first one to present
Gentlemen, I have subscribed to your Outstanding program. I have been listening to these episodes as "Background Noise" while I do my college homework and it has the rare ability to allow me to focus on BOTH simultaneously. When I complete my degree program, both of you can consider yourselves "Associate Professors" in helping me get there (Jon Parshall is #3) Mahalo Nui Loa!!
And Aloha!
I'm starting over brothers! I can listen to these guys all day!
Great job very entertaining and informative
I started watching this series at Episode 113 a while back and had not gone back to the beginning. Re: Pearl Harbor and detailed history the best I've seen is "At Dawn We Slept" by Gordon W. Prange. I think it's a great book and goes into incredible detail of both sides of the run up to Dec 7. He also goes into a lot of detail the misunderstanding of the threat by Kimmel and Short.
Thank you for creating such an amazing series.
I deeply respect your efforts to stay factual and humanism the realities of war. This is how history shoukd be taught.
In a small way you're helping push back the next great war. Maybe you should translate this series to Cantonese...
Great show . Very little known fact - Japan lost 29 aircraft in a surprise attack against a slumbering enemy . Nagumo was very well aware of his losses . The loss were a minor contributing factor in his decision not to lunch a third wave . Not surprisingly most of those losses were in the second wave when American anti-air was alerted .
Great discussion of the driving factors behind the Japanese decision to attack Pearl Harbor.
There are a couple of points you raise that I think are worth mentioning.
Alan Zimm in his book on Pearl Harbor looks at what might have happened of US Forces had been more alerted that morning. His research shows that had the fleet gone to GQ and the Army been able to launch its fighters prior to the attack beginning the Japanese might well have taken very heavy losses. Losses that might well have effectively incapacitated multiple Japanese carriers through losses to their air groups.
His analysis of the consequences of hitting the oil tanks shows that the impact would not have been significant with the fleet able to make good those losses in relatively short order.
Finally Zimm looks at the midget sub issue and makes a very strong argument that no a midget sub isn’t seen in that photo and one did not actually manage to torpedo Oklahoma.
If you haven’t read Zimm’s book I highly recommend it. I think it’s potentially as revolutionary to our understanding of the Pearl Harbor attack as Shattered Sword was to Midway.
Bill speaking-- Seth probably is all over this, but how could I have missed it? Just ordered it.
As a former Naval Air Reserve and later an Air Force Reserve flight surgeon, communicating in the ER reminds me of the communication from the radar station on Opana Point. If they had reported about 180 targets inbound, or may be over 10, the new officer likely would have realized it was not a flight of 5 B-17s.
Thanks
That's an excellent point.
So would a dozen picket boats with good radios off Oahu.
I'm not sure the pilots and ships at General Quarters would have changed the outcome vs. Kido Butai
Long wavelength radar couldn’t resolve individual planes and a B-17 return could resemble that of a tight formation of singles.
Here again to start this amazing series over from the beginning as i continue to watch currently....as a history addict since age 11.....60 years ago....Im thinking this is the best historical series i ve ever seen.....hats off and many thanks to you Seth and Bill and special guests Jon and all others....simply awesome 👍👍👍
I subscribed to this channel. I love what you gentleman are doing.
Thanks Bill! tell your friends. And please to rate us on Apple Podcasts if you listen there.
Hi. I just stumbled across your page, the battle of the Bismarck sea podcast, and enjoyed it enough to start from the beginning. The only thing I would argue or question is why Kimmel and Short held accountable and MacArthur wasn't. This alone makes the persecution of K&S were disingenuous and hypocrisy
My grandfather was a BM1 who survived the USS California sinking at Pearl. Just found your podcast; much appreciated.
Excellent program. As to American (and most western) attitudes to the Japanese and their military capabilities, we need to look no further than the Russo Japanese War of 1905. The Japanese were superb, partic at the naval Battle of Tshushima Straits. Western racial prejudice clouded our eyes to the ability and ruthlessness of the Japanese warrior caste and their ability to fight. Now we look to the same country to assist us in addressing Chinese hegemony, as Seth and Bill discussed. Great episode, thank you both.
Great format and glad I happened upon it. Folks, be sure to copy/paste link to FB and other formats to spread the word.
Many thanks
Ed Beach was writing about Kimmell and Short because his father had been caught in a similar situation when his ship was grounded off Santo Domingo, and totaled . The ship had two names USS Memphis and USS Tennessee.
I fear you both are correct when it comes to it can happen to us again. One distressing thought that plagues me are the frequent naval collisions happening in the Pacific today. I think the last one a destroyer impacted an oil tanker?! I would love to hear the Sub Commander's thoughts on that!
Those kinds of collisions are inexcusable. Back in the mid-90s while I was serving as XO I led a study to reinforce mariner training among ship's officers. In my view, learning how to fight a ship as a warrior is a very different and in many cases contradicting discipline than basic mariner skills as one is called upon to use during peacetime. My study indicated that in our zeal to focus on warfighting, we had neglected basic mariner training. My recommendation then had been to separate officer mariner training from warrior training, to focus on mariner skills first, and only when proficient at that, then to begin the training on how to fight the ship. When these 7th Fleet collisions occurred, it became clear to me that the same defect was now presenting itself again. The Navy is again relearning that painful lesson, and is again learning what proper mariner training looks like and how to do it.
I would like to hear about the San Francisco’s incident in the early 2000’s. One of my section leaders in A school was a sonar tech on the San Francisco and he was getting reclassified as an engineer. Not sure if it was his decision or the Navy’s. We gave that guy a tough time and it wasn’t until later that I realized how bad it actually was.
What an incredible and outstanding series .....so long over due and discussed in plan language by experts. It is loaded with truth and candor, totally lacking is excuses, coverups and myths; but a serious look at what actually happened and why. The leading characters in the Pacific campaign are clearly examined, unvarnished by the fog of war, and the chips fall where they may. It's an excellent series that I have watched fully once and will review many more time....grab your note books, perhaps a beer or two and enjoy this excellent series of the Pacific war.
Seth, the comment you made about your opinion on the Japanese mini sub that attacked the Oklahoma blew my mind! I had no earthly clue that they had gotten in and did that kind of work!❤
wow i did not know gabby was at pearl...wasnt he a p47 ace in the ETO?
Thank you so much from Sydney,Australia for making this video.
at the end- yes, we did show them at Midway but, also did so earlier at Coral Sea. thank you
Was stationed at NAS Barbers Point 84-87, and enjoyed seeing the history all around Oahu. The seeds of WW2 with Japan, I believe began with RADM Perry’s trip to Hawaii in the 19th century.
Great discussion. I think one of the most eye opening insights into the dismissive mindset of the military leadership towards the threat naval aviation posed is contained in Dusty Kleiss's book before he died. Dusty talked about his impression of Admiral Kimmel's attitude toward naval aviation. Spot on that the men at the top were culpable.
Informative and entertaining show. I’ve alwYs felt bad for Kimmel and Short because they were scapegoats but they truly ignored high level warnings and did nothing. The take away is that resp for protecting against an attack wasn’t responsibility of either the Army or the Navy, it was both. Kimmel and Short should have gotten their respective joint service teams together immediately after Stinson’s letter in Jan 1941 and req’d them to map-out a defense strategy and plan for protecting against an attack on Pearl Harbor. Instead, they did nothing. Same thing could be said of McArthur in the Philippines.
Well done, men! Looking forward to working my way through the Pacific campaign.
On two occasions, the USN "fleet problem" involved a carrier strike on Pearl Harbor. Yet, they discounted the possibility.
I have read that in the late 1920's, Billy Mitchell and Yamamoto like to hang out in the Naval Club in Washington and play poker. One of the topics of discussion was always the problem of how to attack Pearl Harbor from the air.
Another point I have come across in reading was that part of the problem with Naval Intelligence at Pearl was that no one could figure out how it made any sense for the Japanese to attack the US. Remember that at this point in the war, the Germans had control of Holland, Belgium and France, and that the Japanese therefore had access to all sorts of resources in their respective colonies in the Far East.
Beyond that, I wouldn't put it past intelligence in Washington, whether or not it included Roosevelt, to decide that if the Japanese were going to attack the antiquated battleships in Pearl Harbor, that it would be much better to have them attack those ships in the harbor rather than on the open ocean. Just consider how many experienced sailors might have been lost if all the ships that went down did so on the open ocean. And how the hell could one tell Kimmel to not sail if he knew the Japanese were going to attack?
And I do have one more favorite topic, which is just what might have resulted in Pearl if the Japanese had brought their fleet into gun range after the air attacks?
Excellent podcast . Keep up the good work.
May 1941 About 1/4 of the Pacific fleet transferred to Atlantic to escort British convoys.
My father was with the 19th infantry that day at Schofield, so I have spent some time on this. The 24th division had a war warning that week. I also think the carriers were out because of this warning which sent aircraft to midway. Both sides made gross mistakes. The Japanese in not taking out the oil storage and the US in not having any CAP or sending out a PBY or B-17 to follow the Vals back to their fleet. My father was in the pacific until the spring of 1945, under dig out Doug. Crossed the Owen Stanleys with the Aussie's, Bona-Gona, Atapi, Hollandia and Leyte - He ended up an alamo scout which you should cover some day - (I know not navy). I got to meet Welch and Gabby at reunions -
Your series is superb - accurate and well documented history.
I never knew about the midget submarines making it into the harbor. I had heard a lot about the USS Ward sinking a midget sub, but never put any the thought into whether there was more than one. It makes sense that there were more, but hearing it for the first time surprised the hell out of me. I always enjoy listening to history about the WW2 in the Pacific, and I will definitely be following this podcast. Please keep up the excellent work, I love how the discussion is layed out!
Five midget subs were launched. One was reported sunk by the USS Ward, and a second one by USS Monaghan, a third either malfunctioned or had a navigational error and found on the beach and captured on December 8. A fourth was found offshore in 1960, and a fifth in 1990. At least one has been theorized to have made it into the harbor and left and then sank. A photograph has been interpreted by some people to show two trails from torpedoes that could not have been fired from an airplane.
@@Ensign_Nemo 5 midget subs? Oh wow....I guess that makes sense now that I think about it. If only 1/5 made it into the harbor then it wouldn't have been a prudent decision for the IJN to launch just 1 or 2. Thank you for the information you provided there!
BTW, the only picture I could seem to find was a blurry image of the Oklahoma (potentially the victim of the submarine torpedoes I believe?), but I couldn't really discern torpedo trails. Do you know if there is a higher resolution picture of the torpedo trails and where I might be able to find it? I'm definitely interested in learning more about it now lol
The first Japanese POW that was captured from one of the subs was released at wars end and eventually became head of Toyota Motors Brazil.
About those Kate Torpedo planes, there were two squadrons that attacked, one from the Akagi, and the other from the Kaga. Kaga's planes were second to attack, and 5 of them were shot down.
History doesn't repeat itself I do not think; but it most definitely rhymes.
Been enjoying your great show gentleman.
Fyi; I had two grandfather's who served in this theatre; both holding Pacific Star et.al. One in 2/6th Field Ambulance serving in New Guinea; Moratai and Borneo (Balikpapan and Nth thereof). .
The other was Sapper; Leuitenant in Army Engineers. He had to return from Middle East (having been un what is now Israel; Lebanon etc.) to help see of the Japanese threat.
One American pilot mistook their ship on the way home once and had a go. Not the best welcome back. They were heading for Singapore but it fell mid trip they heard; so straight back to Oz.
Keep these great shows coming please. . ...
Sam;
Adelaide Sth Australia
Excellent discussion and presentation. You are to be commended for presenting the positive copy of the "Death of the Arizona" film. Somehow over the years the 'negative' print (that showing the fatal explosion on the left side of the screen) became the the dominant copy. This mistake, along with the photo of Billy the Kid showing the loading gate of his Winchester rifle being on the left side of the receiver, are two negative copies of a film/photo that somehow became the norm. The photo of Billy the Kid made historians believe that he was left handed, Hollywood certainly thought so. Looking forward to following your site until its conclusion. Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
Great video.
I love you guys great show and please keep up the good work
I've been a subscriber since episode 104. Today is my first time actually watching the very first episode. There WAS reason to believe we would go to war with Germany. The US NAVY was already in an undeclared shooting war with German submarines. In fact; Pres Roosevelt never declared war against Germany. Hitler declared war against us.
Just found this channel. Immediately subscribed. Looking forward to this!
Thanks for this video. I get SO TIRED of the Kimmel apologists. And there is another point you missed. He was in Command. I'm a retired USAF officer, and I learnt that, even if you follow every rule in the book, and fail your mission, you are responsible. You need to succeed, even if you have to break every rule in the F*&in' book - get it done. At the end of the day, Kimmel failed - period. What was Roosevelt supposed to do, leave Kimmel in command? Insanity.
You are correct. Short was also an officer of limited vision. He constantly ignored the portents in favour of an insistence on "training". He also paid the price, sadly but deservedly so.
I may be mistaken but it is my understanding that when the fleet was in port its defense was the responsibility of the Army.
@@mpetersen6 Yes, it was, which is why Gen Short was relieved. I think that the California had all of the bulkhead open for inspection, other ships had all their ammo locked up. None were manned in a way that a 'war warning' should have made obvious. Also, the fact that a sub was torpedoed just outside the harbor was ignored by the Navy. Other people should have shared his fate, agreed, but what was Roosevelt to do? Leave the two commanders in place?
@@swdierks
Oh Short and Kimmel had to go. No question about that. There's another factor involved in the general lack of response to the war warning. They'd had two or three previous ones. The boy who cried wolf thing.
And the midget sub sunk by the Ward. Sunk by gunfire.
Guys, I would be totally okay with listening to this for another 3-4 hours. I am a history nerd, mostly in WW2 and medieval times, and I discovered your channel just an hour ago- I think I’m about to become a high-functioning addict. THANK YOU for pointing out the equal racism, and that it was both militarist and expansionist (and resource-driven) views of Japan that applied. However, I would LOVE to hear your educated (and please, non-biased views) of Japanese invasion of China- including Nanjing. If you would include some histiry pros that are female/women/gender-neutral guests too, that would be ABSOLUTELY AMAZING. History often gets caught up within gender biases (and the most feminist man EVER still can’t relate unless they grew up female/presenting as a girl) and I think that we, GLOBALLY, need to address that whenever possible.
But. This is completely great in itself. Thank you for such a balanced view, and acknowledging the conspiracies and mud-throwing over the years, and thank you for such balance.
Great video but I wish to add a small correction. 51:31 The Lusitania was not the event that caused the US to declare war on Germany in WW1. The Lusitania was sunk on May 07, 1915. The US declared war on April 06, 1917 almost 2 years later.
Hey Guys, been following this channel for a while. Just coming back to review from Ep 1 and It has raised a couple of questions. I do hope you see comments this far back.
Q1: Where there any US miltary on duty in Japan at the time and what about diplomatic staff, did they get interned in Japan or where they allowed to leave and if so how ?
Q2: What happened to the Japanese consular staff in Washington after they delivered the belated ultimatum ?
Something I picked up down the line and desire your take:
Were not plans ever lined up as a means of prevention of sabotage?
Thanks excellent research and pinpoint delivery. You cats are aces in my book.
I *think* I remember reading or hearing or seeing that a surprised Japanese pilot noted in his journal that a US marine stood up facing him firing a hand gun (.45 ?) at his plane during a strafing run. Anyone have any info or sources on that ?
Item number 5 for Bill to consider: One point about Yamamoto's strategy is that the attack was not supposed to be a total surprise given the timing of the message by Japanese diplomats in D.C. The fact that it was a surprise galvanized American opinion to such a degree that we would not have accepted a diplomatic solution regardless of how many early battles we lost in the war!
Good point
Glad I found this podcast!
I have seen and very much enjoyed many of your podcasts. I chose this episode to ask a question I have wondered about for some time because it deals with the beginning. What would have happened if the Dec 7 attacks had excluded Hawaii and the Phillipines? The oil that was needed was available in the Dutch East Indies. The Japanese were already in the Tripartite Agreement and could have attacked British, Dutch, French possessions "legally." What would the U.S. reaction have been considering the political strength of the "America First" movement at the time?
Quote> Pearl Harbor had welded us, in one Sabbath moment of blazing affront, into a fighting nation; the 13 colonies didn't fight as wholeheartedly for their revolution as we did for islands in the Pacific as obscure before 1941 as pockmarks on the moon.
John Updike - LIFE (Collector's Edition) Pearl Harbor
Just started watching your podcast. Not sure if I'm upset that you started at 101 and there for aren't a hundred back episodes for me to catch up on or relieved. Think I'm more disappointed really, this was an interesting conversation.
I don't think that Kimmel should have gotten completely scapegoated. My main criticism of him has to do with the "workweek" mentality of his fleet. This predictability invited the attack by making the fleet an inviting target on a weekend. As far as fleet defense, itself, that was NOT Kimmel's brief, that belonged to Claude Bloch of the 14th Naval District, who, seems to have escaped censure.
As far as Short, again, he, in no way, had enough defensive resources to repel the attack, but, his mistake was misinterpreting the threat. Much like Emmons, Short was more concerned about subversive activities of Japanese/American citizens, and the possibility of sabotage. The lack of dispersion of the aircraft made them easy targets. And the lack of even a token CAP or any kind of defensive scouting, seems careless, even in peacetime. I doubt that, even if the Air Corps had gotten formations aloft, that there would have been enough tactical coordination among the "green" pilots that could have given them much air to air success. There was just too much underdeveloped doctrine, even to the point of having no doctrinal plan to coordinate things like Radar, interception plotting, ground/air communication and the like. The P-40 was designed as a pursuit plane, and would have been at a huge disadvantage at the low altitude dogfighting needed to intercept the incoming waves of attack.
Admiral Richardson saw the shortcomings of the half measure defenses in forward deployments, and judged that Pearl was not even close to being defensible. History has vindicated his judgement on the matter.
Enjoying your discussion, I had started with some of your Midway ones, and, found them interesting. I would defend F.J. Fletcher, however, as he was smeared by more politically astute "Monday morning QB" types, and by S. E. Morrison, who he had no time for, having been on OPs, basically, since the war's beginning, where, he, a non-aviator, had to try untested doctrines that were forced upon the Pacific Fleet, by the savaging of the BBs, and the, apparent, lack of trust given to Admiral Pye, who seemed to have little confidence of Nimitz. Fletcher's early war successes were critical, and his adherence to force conservation kept the US active in Operations through 1942. Spruance gets credit for Midway, but, Fletcher was the SOAF. It was Fletcher who did the proper scouting. It was Fletcher that kept the Yorktown in reserve until the exactly proper time, to recover his scouts and launch that deckload strike that took down Soryu. And it was Fletcher who showed the good judgement not to go glory seeking by demanding operational command after Yorktown got hammered by the 1st counterstrike. Midway belongs to Fletcher as much as it does to Spruance, and more than it does to Spruance's subordinate, Mitscher.
On your points wrt Kimmel and Short, perhaps it will make you feel better that NHHC Director Sam Cox likely agrees with you! And Seth did say that if we got aircraft aloft during the Pearl Harbor attack, our death toll would likely have been higher. On the Fletcher point-- stay tuned for future episode with Jon Parshall where we will explore the operational level commanders of the Pacific, to include Fletcher.
@@UnauthorizedHistoryPacificWar
@@UnauthorizedHistoryPacificWar BUT if even moderate numbers of fighter aircraft had been been aloft at dawn, 7 december, especially if out to sea headed towards nagumos carriers, alerted by the sea and air patrols that should have been out and maintained well enough to spot the kido butai as it manuvered to its launch position, the disruption of the incoming aerial assault would have been significant IF NOT CANCELLED. if fleet and land antiaircraft batteries were at a hightened state of alert ALSO, as they likely would have been, the japanese attack certainly would have been less effective--tho the difference in loss of life cannot be determined, such alertness with existising resources almost certainly would reduce the damage. such alertness might even have caused have caused nagumo to cancell the attack of his second wave and steam off to protect his carriers from a possible retaliatory strike???
Excellent. But king STILL didnt like him. Halsey would have fared better? I doubt it. King couldnt get rid of fletcher he knew therewas no one better
thanks again. I remember how shocking and surprising the 9/11 attacks were; never imagined this could happen, but if you look closer there were plenty of warnings and "intelligence'. I suspect the brass at Hawaii were caught out the same way; they could not have imagined a strike at that distance at that time and in that political situation.
That might have made a difference if the USN higher echelons had considered Japanese history, and realized that they were risk-takers. Because the U.S. Navy leadership could not envision the IJN striking over 4,000 miles when the low-hanging fruit was at the Philippines and the British base at Singapore didn’t mean the Japanese would think the same way.
See the documentary Loose Change.
I am surprised that there was no reference of the Royal Navy surprise attack of the Italian Naval facility in Toranto. Very similar to Pearl, shallow harbor, modified British torpedoes and tactics. Caught the attention of the Japanese.
about the end, you mention the lusitania as the cause of ww1 us entry. wasnt there also the mexico affair ?
Aww, just found this channel maybe 2 weeks ago, Capt. Toti needs to bring the goatee back NOW!
haha. Tell my wife.
@@UnauthorizedHistoryPacificWar I will sir!
@@UnauthorizedHistoryPacificWar Mrs. Admiral Toti please let Capt. Toti grow his awesome facial hair back.. Please?!?!
@@UnauthorizedHistoryPacificWar Dear Mrs. Admiral Toti, I humbly request you all Capt, (retired) Bill Toti to regrow his awesome and fierce goatee back, please?
The 1st Episode Wunderbar
I'm not sure how many are aware of it, but in the movie "Here comes the Navy" starring James Cagney and Patrick O'Brien, there are a number of scenes shot on board the USS Arizona. I believe a number of her crew are extras in the movie as well. It's a little odd to think about the ships subsequent fate. Moffit field as well with what, if memory serves, is the dirigible Shenandoah.