Speaking as someone who is trained in, and practices immersive acting methods for stage and camera AND makes an effort to apply these techniques in roleplaying, I'll answer your question: Yes it IS difficult to immerse yourself while in front of an audience - but not impossible. The entire acting profession is centered around solving this problem, and problems like it (at least when speaking about most modern trends in theatre/TV/Film, though there are exceptions) The term "The fourth wall" is derived from this very practise. Think of an actor on the stage. The audience see three walls, to side of, and behind the actor, but there is no wall between the audience ands the actor - the audience needs to see what's going on. This means that, for the actor, facing the audience causes a constant reminder that they are not the character they are portraiting. They need to find a way to make their mind see a fourth wall, instead of what their eyes tell them is there - an audience. This is all figurative of course, it doesn't have to be a wall,m it could be a field of roses, in which case the actor will try to see the roses, see the horizon, and even smell the roses. It takes a lot of introspective work, and flexing of one's imaginative abilities, but once this techniue is mastered, bringing it into roleplaying is purely magical. One thing that makes this kind of roleplaing method significantly easier than stage work, is the fact that the actor on stage always knows what's going to happen, having read the script. They have to make themselves feel like they are experiencing, and are surprised by, the story night after night after night. Not going to go into depth as o how to do this in a youtube comment, but there are some really good exercises to achieve this. I understand that most people don't want to spend years perfecting various acting techniques just to spice up their roleplaying but I still want to recommend it, it's one the most amazing experiences I've ever had. Word of warning though, when you go into this level of immersion, bleed becomes a very real risk. This is where the emotions you experience bleed over to you. For me, after a particularily tragic scene, it means I can burst into tears from just being reminded of the session for days, or even weeks after having played it. This becomes an even more signifcant risk when applying this technique to larping, but oh my god, the immersive experience when larping with full emotional immersion is nothing short of magical. I have been CLOSE to what you described as total immersion (you still have to be aware of the LARPs safety rules, this is every player's responsibility) This comment is becoming way too long, but I would love to talk about this, this is my absolute favourite subject to talk about and, in case you couldn't tell, I have some interesting experiences and techniques to share. So... drop me a line if you feel like it! And if you read all the way through, wow! Thanks!
@Catarinasunnergren Which acting techniques do you think would be the most productive for gamers and others who are interested in exploring this sort of immersion in a character?
@@NickHollingsworthUK I should start by saying that the following is what works for me. In the acting world, I always suggest people homebrew their own technique using different branches of Stanislavski as building blocks, with one one in particular as a base. People are different and our emotions are triggered in different ways, reflected by the different techniques are out there. But, biased as I may be, I do think there is some logic to the collection of methods I have gathered. Base: Stella Adler. Adler puts a lot of focus on backstory and mundane details. She suggested exercises in the actor’s daily löife to pay attention to, and be made aware of the little things. The texture of the floor against your feet, the weight of that apple in your hand, the aftertaste in your mouth after breakfast. Once your brain is good at instantly imagining these things, start adding them to your character’s backstory, mundane scenes with memories from your childhood, big events sure, but also the normal day-to-day where you formed your sense of security. Then add these little sensory details in all of these scenes, the more you can use the 5 senses the better. Then I add some of the principles of Meisner, who believes character immersions happens in the relationship between characters, though I don’t like using my own relationship as a substitute for my characters, but that’s a matter of taste. I assess all characters, PCs and NPCs alike, and figure out what I think of them and what I expect from them, and think of someone, at least from my past that they remind me of. “People who are X usually do Y”. Then, lastly, if I don’t feel like I can fully step into the character, I spice it up with a little bit of Michael Chekhov, who placed body before mind in acting. I don’t like that idea as a basis but as sprinkles on the surface it can work quite well. Figure out how the character moves, their mannerisms and physical habits and mentally connect those to everything else you’ve done, then a simple hand gesture or head-tilt can work as the trigger that wakes the character up in your mind and you’re there. Stella Adler as a base doesn’t only help with immersing yourself into the character itself, but also makes you better at absorbing whatever the GM gives you to play with and experience.
@@Aeterus I would say try it out, experiment, and talk about it with others who are doing the same. It is an immensely interesting topic and amazing to practice. I apply this in a character driven episodic LARP and I have learned SO much by doing that. But I suppose a good first step is to create a conversation.
Great exploration of this weird and wonderful aspect of RPGs. Weird to an adult, but completely obvious to us as kids. Er...the immersion, not the mushrooms
😄 Shiitake maybe! Got me wondering why kids might have such strong imaginative tendencies - perhaps the more we know about the world the less we need to rely on it?
@@TheTombofLimeGaming I would suspect that is exactly it. As one gains more life experience, one also inevitably develops more heuristics based on that experience, and begins to rely more on these known models of reality than one's imagination or even reality itself. Clearing away these heuristics is the explicit aim of zen meditation (at least in the Soto tradition) and it is in that practice that I have found myself the closest to my childhood experience.
The most immersive games I have played have been online. Lights out, comfortable clothes. VTT to handle dice rolls and to display some images & play some music mostly just to hold the basic imaginative frame. No webcam video. No battlemaps. All out of character talk is by voice and preferably kept to a minimum, all in-character description & dialogue is via text. Dice rolls only when actually necessary. Preferably 2-3 players only, including GM. 4 players max.
Here's something that makes or breaks my immersion. A sense of normality. Too often I end up playing in these super high fantasy settings. Dragons and wizards rule the world and magic is in everything. That wouldn't be so bad if the adventure we went on was implicitly "another tuesday," but I'm then told (either via a knowledge check or from an NPC talking) that the adventure we're on is somehow the exception to everything that goes on. So not only is the world completely strange and unfamiliar, but also the thing we're doing is somehow MORE strange and MORE unfamiliar. I just can't tell the difference, to be frank! "You're telling me it was previously inconceivable that fairy skeletons would raid this town? THAT part was myth and legend? The whole town is normally run by goblin monks that shoot laser beams!" Bottom line, I just want to be aware of what's NORMAL in a world, so I know to be shocked and surprised when the cool things happen. Either that or merely to appreciate how different the world is from our own.
This is something you should be bringing up at every session 0. "What is "normal" in this world"? So then you can be excited over something when it's out of that range. And if your GM is all over the place, roleplaying how your group can't believe this is in the world they built based off their own session 0 notes, should bring them back in line or force them to give better build up for the world
@MattSchieler That would be fine and dandy, but some GMs just want to run the default world that a game provides. Dnd's "Faerun" or Pathfinder's "Golarion" have this problem built in it, so if a GM isn't comfortable enough to establish a world of their own, well... there you go.
@@WaterTheBoy Most of the pre-written content gives the GM this information. And its not hard to deduce this from a quick read through before session 0 to give this information to the players. This is something all GM's should be doing and if they don't you should be asking if its something important to you. Even if they don't have an answer, they can find out for your first session And anyway, if its a world that is already established and you know the GM is going to run it canon... then its easy for you to quickly search about this world to understand what to expect. Then you can also build solid character backgrounds within the world you'll be playing in
@@MattSchieler You make it sound easier than it is. Establishing a sense of "normality" isn't exactly a cake walk. There are hours upon hours of lore and content from these fantasy settings. Seldom is even the most mundane detail the exact same as it is in real life. Sometimes, there's just NO detail on a subject! I've asked GMs about something like the economy. A mundane thing we interact with every day, but they wouldn't be able to find the Dollar to Coin ration for Waterdeep (for example) and giving a rundown on how the economy works at any given time is difficult. There are many complex factors involved and I expect no GM to be fully read up on how that works, be it for a fantasy world or reality. And this is also assuming that the economy is relevant to establishing normality in the context of the game! If we don't interact with money (again, for example), we can't know if it'll come up or matter, especially since there's so much improvisation involved at play. To clarify, my original comment never meant to imply that establishing normality is easy. Just that it does effect my immersion and that pre-existing game worlds try so hard to be fantastical that it leaves many GMs with a difficult to avoid problem.
@@Frostrazor The players after clearing a bandits camps, find a fine warhorse, I ask them what color is the warhorse one player want a black warhorse for a long time, so I say roll your faith she role a % dice and get 39, so now she need to role again and role below 39%, she usually miss for some strange reason, so the horse is brown. the player get to influence the games and aid me in the narrations of the games. 😅😅☕☕
I have attempted to run what I call a Meditative RPG (MRPG, thank you) - I prepped a map of a small island with a handful of locations and objects, pretty much just like I would as a DM. Then I sat with my friend in the dark with a candle burning and we meditated for ten minutes. I began: "You are waking up. The sound of water dripping somewhere echoes throughout this place. It sounds cavernous. It is dark. You see a patch of light off in the distance. Do you go towards the light or will you explore the sound of water?" This went on for about a half hour as he explored the island and discovered a pile of corpses washed ashore. It was interesting but we never did it again. I think it lacked game mechanics. If I were to do it again, I would take a system like Cairn and keep track of his character sheet (inventory slots etc) and then if combat were to happen, I'd know what buffs his weapons and items did and roll dice with my eyes open on his behalf. I think it needs a strict set of guidelines where the DM presents the world, offers choices and the player makes statements. If anyone wants to develop this idea hit me up :)
love this video, anything that provides players the tools needed to become immersed is great. i work super hard to ensure the feeling of the game is immersive and roleplay-centric as a GM. I think my efforts contradict some of your points, but i think there are many types of immersion as you stated and my games have my flavor of it. I think the main ways I try to immerse the players are with the miniatures used in combat, being custom painted and often custom sculpted to match whatever eldritch horror i’ve cooked up that week. Each model has my painting style and looks cohesive with the terrain I use, creating a very specific look for the world matching my auditory descriptions. Music is next; I take inspiration from the dark souls series, with actual music only appearing at important character moments and combat - bosses get fromsoftware operatic numbers and everything else gets very simple orchestral music with just enough beat to keep everyone on their toes. I layer different tabs of youtube to have the various ambiences of whatever area they are in, played at a really low volume to simulate being there physically. Next is the descriptions - in my life i take note of the first things that i notice about somewhere i am, the smell, the framing of the room and where my eyes are drawn. As closely as I can i mimic that in my descriptions, trying to point out significant things about at least 2 senses for each scene. I really think that if everyone at the table is committed to having an immersive roleplay experience, it will happen. that being said, you can’t just plop down immersive elements and expect it to happen immediately. It needs to be fostered and formed starting at session 0 and strengthened with each session
What you call imaginative immersion, is what I'm calling mindscaping. The GM is describing a scene, and im painting the picture in my mind from what he says. And then I expand the mindscape with my own additions, of where my character is, what he does, and what I say. And together we evolve and change the scene. Trying to think if there is a difference between your definition and mine, or if it's just semantics, haha. Great video. I look forward to these.
two thoughts I have after listening to your points: - I doubt imagined sensory experiences are the core of roleplay immersion since I have friend who has both aphantasia and no mental speech and still get's immersed in the universe through other angles. (like being invested in driving character relationships and a strong understanding of what might follow and be versimilitudinous.) In essence I think the ability to understand what the imaginary world is like and what your role would make of it next is not necessarily related to the ability to envision it. I'd attribute that to the word "imagination" implying images where it's more of a side effect of the thought process. -For me music is powerful but just like narration it can be used to dictate how players should feel. If you use sad music to say "this npc death is sad" you are kind of doing the same thing as saying "you feel sad". I've done it, but I think it require reading the room and playing the music after it's clear that's what the players are living, and not preparing the music and the scene as a forced moment. I select music extremely actively during sessions I DM, changing it multiple times per scenes if needed to match what I think is the atmospheres of the moment. It's rewarding and difficult but I wouldn't do it differently now that I've seen the fruits. Sorry this isn't the most condensed thoughts ever, I'm typing this on a short break !
Forcing players to speak in character was the single thing that ruined my home game. We had a friend who was very shy and new to rp and I was a newer dm so I didn't realize at the time that speaking in character made her feel like a baby playing pretend, and made her interactions very rare or bringing an awkward energy to the table that e everyone felt. In the end letting her summarize her speech, with me occasionally giving out specific sentences that she said based on what she said for drama or details that were necessary made everyone at the table more immersed and happy
She should have just gotten over that feeling and tried something new. Making the DM play her character for her wasn't the correct decision, and your other players probably had their immersion lessened for it.
I agree! Not everyone plays the same way. You are not playing the game wrong, if it's not super immersive. Being completely immersed is great, and if that is everyones goal at the table, I applaud you. But if you as a group decide, that to let everyone have as much fun as possible, you need to tone down the immersiveness, then that's the best decision.
I liked your ideas. I used to GM for about 20 year, about 20 years ago. It was replaced by writing, directing and working with actors, and I guess I find that immersion in exploring a scene with actors. In fact, I recently got back into rpgs, but with such theatrical friends we almost automatically add to and progress each others threads and immersion
I definitely think you can forget who you are for a bit in a larp, but in a tabletop game this is a strong case for a minimalist approach. The characters and games that I remember the most vividly are usually from games that had very few set pieces. In those other games, I remember the set pieces.
Great stuff, Matt. There's so much we can do to strengthen immersion in our games. This is what (ultimately) led me to try full rules opacity for the players in order to avoid all mental Switching Costs (between mechanics & events).
Ever since you've mentioned this style of GMing, my mind has been abuzz with what a rule-set might look like when tooled specifically for it. I look forward to what you come up with!
@@TheTombofLimeGaming - It was a huge piece of the puzzle for me in the paradigm shift away from a board gaming mentality. It really works in helping the players bind themselves to their characters' POV (if they want that, of course). YT won't allow links in here, but I can put one in your Disc channel.
Greetings from Brasil! I came across this video a couple of days ago and binge watched all the others from your channel since. I really like your points and agree with most of what you've been saying. I'd love for you to tell more about things you do on your table. Mechanics, and exemples of things you apply, maybe even some real cases of your game, just so it could be a little more concrete. I guess I've been getting a lot of what you don't like but less of what you do like and would love to learn more! Keep on the very good work you've been doing! Thanks.
Collaborative creation of the world in my experience make it more immersive. My players feel they own more the world when we do it, also often the invented things merge together better than what expected.
Corkboards & Curiosities also brought out a video about player immersion. its funny how both of you brought the cinema experience in different ways into your videos
Ive long been thinking about creating an rpg that uses some kind of a sound device instead of dice. You press sth and you get one of 4 sounds meaning success, crit success, failure and crit failure. You would play in near dark. Just one Oil lamp in the middle. Also I find sitting on the ground instead of chairs helps with imagination. There is ofc the problem of differentiating characters. Maybe there are 3 or even 5 buttons to press each of them leading to different chances for success and failure and the GM judges for each character in what situation the player gets to press which button.
Immersion is impossible without engagement. The majority of people I know who play TTRPG's have ADHD. That means it is hard to keep engagement, and minimal stimulation is frustrating and aversive. Rich VTT elements are highly attractive to the ADHD mind.
What a great video. Really put into perspective all the typed of immersion ive been involved in with all the ttrpg games ive played. On your note of "Verbing", i actually want to express from my experience that this actually is not a bad thing. In a current game of Curse of Strahd I'm GMing for, the group expressed in the session 0 that they were a shy bunch and they were generally incapabale of getting the ball rolling on their own. Now i wasnt just going to leave them high and dry, i offered to temporarily control their character in a guided way until they were inspired to take the reigns. And so far this method has been working well. I would literally tell them what their character is doing and/or feeling in one senstence. And once they felt comfortable, they would take over. So far my players have expressed they are very happy. There are caveats however. First, when a GM does this, they must do it in a way that aligns with the player's vision of the character, which means more communication is required to ensure both the GM and player are aligned with the character's actions. The second thing is the GM must show restraint and discipline when assisting players in this way. I have found it very easy to fall into the trap of describing a characters actions like a book instead of a guideline on where the players can start their roleplay. I have established with my players thay they are welcome to interrupt me if i were to take an action the character wouldnt do or if ive controled the character for too long. Just like with all tables, this requires communication of expecation and boundries, but it may require a little bit more than usual. And it may seem like more work on the GM, but ive used this to my advantage to actually guide the story along instead of having players totally going on a tangent in the world. As ive said, its actually working very well so far, and the players are very happy with how its going. So with the right expectstions, verbing isnt a totally bad thing.
Fascinating bit of rpg philosophy! Thank you! I value immersion quite highly in an rpg but I might have a different take on what it means to me than to you or others may have. As a person with hyper sensitivities being relatively comfortable physically is an even higher priority than for most. I've actually also connected my preference for relatively simple rpg systems and theatre of the mind to being aphantasiac (or hypophantasic?). This leaves room for me to immerse myself in my character and the situation/world despite not having a clear visual imagining of things. I would say for me immersion is more a mental thing than sensory related. Music in games also often irritates me.
Reading about the experiences of aphantasics, someone said that they still enjoyed reading novels but basically ignored/glossed over visual descriptions, preferring dialogue and action and so on. I imagine that depending on people's differing sensitivities different aspects of any imaginative endeavour (including TTRPGs) will appeal to them. I wonder if connecting with, and playing with, players that have the same levels of mental visualisation as us would lead to more satisfying experiences? Or maybe we just have a GM that understands what appeals to us and can accomodate it?
@@TheTombofLimeGaming When I read fiction I enjoy immersing myself in the story of the characters but also I seem to prefer interesting worlds, societies etc so systems basically. Complex systems fascinate me and draw me into non-fiction books and articles. As a player I'm most happy when I can immerse in my character and actively roleplay interactions with the game situations. I could see another aphantasic prefer to create character builds in modern D&D and play combats on a grid 😅 I guess my preference is a combination of wanting opportunities for roleplay immersion while not being distracted too much by crunch and physical props such as a grid.
Hold on! Isn't the player acting from meta-level when they're narrating the character's actions in the game. They're not roleplaying at that moment, right? Is only dialogue roleplaying? Anyways. I don't like players speaking only in character. There's too much wrong interpretations what they actually mean to say or do. Oh yeah, great content! 👍
Psychedelic plants have had an influence on the way I think about and run the game, I'm glad others in the community are acknowledging their connection. That said, DMing on mushrooms is a cool idea, but in practice it's really difficult!
I would add the importance of memory: the PCs memory, as recalled through the player’s imagination, but also the player’s memory of playing the PC. These become touchstones of character for the roleplayer to use as they create new PC memories.
I played War of the Ring board game all weekend with my best friend while we were stoned on shrooms and playing the LOTR trilogy soundtrack. Coincidentally the music always seemed to match with what we were doing and i got so immersed in the experience that i had a panic attack. It was awesome.
No verbing! Exactly. Another excellent video. Thanks for putting better words to our clumsy attempts to describe co-creation for a more immersive experience.
Really great video! I love to use music as an immersive aid - BUT, it has to be instrumental, thematic, and appropriate to the scene/setting etc. I’ve spent an awful lot of time compiling various playlists, and have always had extremely positive feedback from players. I should mention, also, that I largely play online, so players have the freedom to set their own volume levels, or even to mute the music if they need to, which I think is very, very important.
Immersion isn't impossible, however it is fleeting. Mechanics/gameplay (that is, the G in our RPG) are inherently anti-immersion as it is solely the player who interacts with them and not the character. Taking the approach of the video enhances and prolongs the periods of fleeting immersion which, without question, improves the overall experience.
I love immersion in both movies and books. I imagine the immersion we feel when reading is closer to what we might experience in a roleplaying game. Your main point seems to be: To reach immersion, reduce distractions - including game mechanics themselves. This got me thinking about page-turning in books. It's an "out-of-world mechanic" that doesn't break immersion because it's so simple. Maybe we need something similar for our games? I think your points about simplicity are key. For true immersion, game mechanics and character details need to be "uploaded to RAM," becoming background processes like page-turning. If the "G" in RPG always fights immersion, are there ways to smoothly transition between immersed and non-immersed states? Thanks for another thought-provoking video. Each one helps me understand your unique perspective on RPGs more clearly. Looking forward to the next!
I have come to a simiiar conclusion bout character info and game mechanics occupying your RAM. I made a video on it on RUclips "bandwitdh & mental stack", trying to formalize this into terms that might be helpful for gm's and players out there. We all have a limited "bandwidth". Keeping track of names & factions, items and ambitions, but also game mechanics and what we want to eat for diiner. Even stuff like "my gf broke up with me" can occupy our bandwidth. So you want to limiz those fistractions as much as possible at the game table, so you have more bandwidth for roleplay at the table.
What grants me a chance for immersion: - neutral visual focus, such as a candle, (not darkness, not pictures) - the exact right expectations for play style/genre/etc - If it’s a somewhat trad game, I need everyone to treat my character as separate from me, as in the game world, as in a real world; I don’t care what happens to my character, as long as it’s real - (trad) either a GM I can trust to not pull any punches, or a system to govern outcomes. My rolls/mechanics must directly represent my character in the world, and the outcomes of those mechanics may only be a direct result of my character in that world. - pizza
1.) In the surrealistic French indie game Dragonfyl Motel it's explicitly forbidden to talk about anything outside of the game, and you aren't allowed to comment on the game or to speculate about what is happening, what it all means etc. All interpretation of the game happens after the game is over. The only things you can do is enter a scene, leave a scene, play a character or play an object. There is no game master, as is typical of indie games. The experience is extremely immersive and psychedelic, and not coincidentally, the creator also suggests comfortable seating and minimalistic, bizarre music, and alludes to the game being compatible with mind-altering substances. 2.) How do you feel about "verbing" at players in horror games? I believe it can create a disturbing, invasive experience when describing things the character is feeling or thinking, creating the implication that some things about themselves are outside of their control. To be used sparingly, of course.
I'm interested if you have thoughts on the intersection of mindfulness and immersion. can mindfulness meditation and mindfulness in general help you gain a new level of immersion?
My favorite way to create immersion is by using text chat, a la IRC from back in the day. It’s slower, but for life-long readers it’s extremely immersive.
It can be, for my games we only communicate through text in my VTT sessions and people feel immersion because there's little opportunity for background chatter from the real world to disrupt the flow of immersion. @@SHONNER
I start DMing not so long ago and I love the Avatar Legends system build on Pbta. But it is not an easy system imo to start with. I think this system is ideal for imersion but you have to know the rules so well and know how to deal with events in the campaign that are not under rules. (But I guese that the rule ofthumb is that is it is not in the rulebook the game mechanicsdon't care about it.) The players I am DMing for do not have the habit of codeciding much for now. I am looking forward to imporving my DM skills.
I'm not a fan of using music in session nor the over-reliance on visual medium or sound effects, hand-outs or other gimmicks. All those things bring me back at the table, so that could very well align with what you are talking about here.
To clarify, the GM is not also trying to have an immersive experience, correct? The GM is sacrificing their immersion for the players’ sake? Or are immersing themselves in the role of omniscient creator god?
Well, I think the GM should be role-playing the NPCs, not controlling them like a god, but I dare say the GM will have a harder time with this kind of immersion than a player who has only one character to focus on. Personally, I can get immersed in an NPC if they're well fleshed out, but throwaways that are just there in passing, not so much. It's more like visualising the PCs from a distance, not unlike reading a novel.
This seems like a fun channel with good production, even if simple. Maybe it's just that you're charming. I generally don't expect much from channels with low suscriber numbers, but your perspective seems more interesting than just "I played more RPGs than you".
Hmm... when you talk about conjuring mental imagery, it does sound like magic; though, it's limited to a certain plane of reality - our shared imagination.
I've done verbing a couple of times, guilty as charged, and it felt incredibly awkward for the characters to experience the inability to act by their own volition, a suffocating sensation that only made them ponder over their existence.
Yeah what kind of music/sound should you play? I'd say something like pink noise wouldn't be a bad place to start. Maybe ambiance soundtracks like rainfall or fire crackling. Something to fill the background and limit outside distractions.
Music is fun. But music can distract from the game. I like it as a tool, because i enjoy "putting on a show", similiar to a host or a DJ I guess. But if you play a song from the beatles, the players will definetly get distracted from the roleplay and just think "why is the beatles playing?" I use videogame music, but i try to usr older games for reference that my players have not played, so it doesn't trigger a memory for them.
Great video, it really got my curiosity spinning. It seems to me immersion is a passive, dare I say introverted activity. Is it going to be possible to sustain in a social and more importantly collaborative game? Most animals seem to be able to dream. Humans developed language and then developed the ability to share their dreams. It is useful to be able to immerse yourself in Grandads most exciting hunt I guess and where Mum last found water. But it seems to be a bit like Schrodinger's cat, as soon as your conscious mind kicks in to translate your thoughts back into human, the immersion collapses.
Ultimately our internal visualisations are exclusively our own, but, I find that when other players are immersed and in-character, adding to the depth and detail of the world that it helps _facilitate_ my immersion, which helps me role-play, which continues this feedback loop. Gotta have the right players though!
I've been thinking about how games are similar to a shared dream. In a dream you simply go with what's presented and integrate it into the narrative. I think it's important to choose what parts of your game lack rules on purpose... That's why I prefer not to have social stats. But that's me unburying the old hatchet. Hahaha 😂
It does seem impossible to get some people to talk in character instead of asking constant meta questions. They're still good players but are either not capable of being in character or don't find it fun.
I call it immersion with the fiction as opposed to immersion in the character. And it seems that most plays who speak o immersion only speak of the latter one, and think only about getting immersed with their character and not get transported into the fiction as a whole independent from the figure they own. I certainly seek that immersion into the fiction, that is what I am concerned with in the techniques I talk about in my own system and I teach players. Like for example I prefer players to play their characters expressive, so that they become more palpable for everyone at the table, not just the player who plays inward and thus tries to be only in the head of their character. I would say the cocreation can be immersive, it is all about reaching that flow state. If one remains in a state of thinking how this benefits their character, then it is irrelevant if they are in a cocreation mode or not, they will not fall into the fiction or their character. The best cocreation is expressive, if you try to add to the fiction to show the character and thus create a draw for everyone into the fiction. That is why I say it might be better to portray the characters in third person, and not first person! That does not mean the player have to be distanced from the character. Quite the opposite, stay emotional close to the character, use direct speech when the character talks, but frame the actions of the character in third person. Why? In other media there exists the idea of "show, don't tell" and well using first person lets people fall into a telling mode, while third person makes it much easier to show, and thus play in a much more immersive mode. And yes, if the players do not play in first person, then there is also no reason for the GM to play in second person. However, I would not say that the GM should play using only a passive voice, instead I would suggest using verbs, but not for the player character, but instead make the environment active. Instead of saying: "it is cold" say something like: "the cold creeps into the building." Again: showing, not telling! That create much more atmosphere and makes immersion much easier.
I imagine that immersion in fiction is the primary way that most people experience this kind of thing at all, thanks to novels and similar. Even when reading a novel written in first person I don't get immersed in that character, it's more like they're telling me the story, rather than me being that character, which is why I think in-character immersion is a selling point for RPGs because it better offers us something you don't get in those other mediums. I don't think character immersion should hurt fiction immersion, rather, I'd say they can reinforce each other - after all, I experience my actual life in first person and don't have a problem interacting with the world because of it! You're right though, I want my players to interact with the world as much as possible, not just be disembodied characters, but grounded ones. And yes. 'it's cold' was just a throwaway - describing the in world effects _of_ the cold would be better for immersion!
@@TheTombofLimeGaming Sure, you experience your life in 1st person, but there you have all the work done for you and do not need to express yourself in a manner that other people can visualise you, that all happens automatically. But in a roleplaying game, where everything is just in the imagination of the people around, there when you fail to express your character you leave the other people hanging with a bland void they cannot fill since you gave them not enough in your egoism to think only about your character.
@@Drudenfusz I don't disagree! I think it's a mark of a good role-player to express themselves exactly as you describe - I just don't think that _has_ to be in third-person to be 'expressive.' Is there an example you can think of, of an action a player could take that could _only_ be described in third person? I don't really want the players describing their character's inner thoughts or anything, just what they do - their interactions with the world - on every turn they anchor themselves to the fiction, and the other players are all adding this to their own mental image of the world. It's very collaborative, and no more egoist than normal human experiences. 'I stand up abruptly, knocking my chair over backwards and slam my palms on the table.' The chair, the table, the action, it's all anchoring the character to the world - I'm not sure what third person narration would add to this?
id like to think this is possible with solo play but the physical material would have to be limited to dice, and a simplified (index card) character sheet, this would keep you immersed rather than shuffling through pages
I really appreciate your point of view, but I'm having a hard time telling whether it might just be a hypothetical utopian vision of how RP could work if the most talented and quick minded people found each other somehow. I suppose it could still be worth striving for in any case - keeping a consistent group, practising collaborative world building, moving to ever more free-form and rules-light systems - even if this perfectly immersive emergent story experience remains out of reach forever.
Hyperphantasia has always put me in a mindset of feeling abject horror at the idea of having no visual imagination. Even worse would be having no inner voice. It sounds like a hell specially made for me. But if its all you know, i guess one wouldnt feel that way. It seems boring and sad, and a life of boredom and sadness is death for me.
P-zombie, huh? Sounds like the debate on autonomous complex GPT agents will go to whether or not they are P-zombies or if the internal analysis of ideas and perceptions is what an internal experience really is.
Great video! This is something I've been trying to achieve on my own channel; how to keep myself and the listeners immersed in the world/story. Check it out any advice you'd have would be very appreciated 👍🏻
Though I've done many substances (LSD. Mushrooms, Various-Cannabis, Opiates) through my "Rockstar" musical days... I know I cannot DM/GM/Play a game while on such hard-substances. I lose focus and tend to wander off. Though... there might be a day that I smoke some grass and run a game just to see if its possible.
The research is still ongoing, but there might be a link between micro-dosing psychedelics and creativity, so maybe there's application there somewhere. Who knows what's on the frontier of TTRPG experiences?
@@TheTombofLimeGaming I've DM'd a few times on mushrooms, between 1-2g each time, and those were some of the most creative free flowing games I've ever played. For me It's similar to something like alcohol where it removes some of my inhibitions and gives me more confidence except with mushrooms my confidence is taken to an 11 and my anxiety dissapears. I gain a childlike imagination and fascination with everything happening, I feel that I can fully immerse my brain with all of the friciton removed. Late last year was the first time I had ever tried mushrooms and after the first few doses I was pulled from a 2 year long depression. I was elated, happier than I've been in years, and was filled with more love for the world than ever before. I still carry some of that with me. I can't wait for more research to come out, I believe in it's medicinal and therapuetic potential.
Sounds exactly like what I've heard for about a decade about this and true to the end of the video I'm in the group of people that this doesn't work for, because neither do I ever imagine myself as being a character of a book or movie. Those are just stories, separate from reality, and in large part it's GMing that made this divide deeply entrenched in my head, spilling into all other media. At this point I simply don't accept players who are looking for immersion at my table cause they're just a lot of trouble to accomodate.
I wouldn't say I imagine myself as a character from a book when I read them (does anyone?), rather that I just form a mental image of what is being described. Which is part of why RPGs in particular provide a different experience to other media because of your inhabiting of a character. Certainly when I don't care to be immersed in an imaginary world I don't play immersive games. Sometimes you want something immersive like _The Witcher,_ sometimes you want something game-y like _Super Meat Boy._ Sometimes you want an immersive novel like _Lord of the Rings,_ sometimes immersion is undesirable in a book, like if you're studying a textbook for an exam. RPGs are well suited for immersion because RPGs are generally hyper focussed on the players _playing the role of a character,_ it sounds like players who don't want immersion would best be served by board games (but then again, many RPGs are mostly board games anyway).
@@TheTombofLimeGaming not really, personally I don't care for board games because they lack the world simulation (or more accurately a sandbox of a world that can be interacted with in unplanned for ways, unlike video games) and story creation. I enjoy playing the character with consideration for their personality, but it's a model or thought experiment, I don't mimic their emotions (for example I can see character's total failure due to his flaws that I played to as deserved and not feel any sadness about it). Honestly the attitude of "true roleplayers" is annoying, you're a selfish nuisance at any table that doesn't purely consist of people with the same goal AND snobby gatekeepers within the community, seemingly oblivious to the fact that your style of play was not the original one in RPGs and it sure as hell isn't an universally agreed on pinnacle of play. But that doesn't stop you from proclaiming yourself to be the only ones who deserve of the title of RPG players whilst others should just play board games or write a book instead.
I felt real immersion, but only on larps and on very scars occasions. But I don't think my fun or excitement for RPGs suffers from meta stuff .. at least not so much as where I can no longer have fun.
@@SHONNER hmm. I don’t know. I had TTRPG sessions and LARP conventions that were not fun and man let me tell you: if it’s not fun, out of character, there is not much left. Even if there is more than fun to RPGs my goal is to do everything for me and others that makes the game more fun.
@@SHONNER that may be true in some cases but were I live Larping is roleplaying. It checks all the boxes other then rolling dice. But I don’t think that is necessary for playing a roleplaying game.
Requests: 1. Can you please stop starting your video with that drum sound and black screen? What the hell even is that? It just looks like you forgot to put the name of your channel in 2. I know you enjoy waxing philosophical and talking about all these ideals, and I know you’re very skeptical of rules, but if this channel is supposed to be an invitation to use your techniques/style, your videos could benefit from more practical examples of the way you do things versus other people.
Speaking as someone who is trained in, and practices immersive acting methods for stage and camera AND makes an effort to apply these techniques in roleplaying, I'll answer your question:
Yes it IS difficult to immerse yourself while in front of an audience - but not impossible. The entire acting profession is centered around solving this problem, and problems like it (at least when speaking about most modern trends in theatre/TV/Film, though there are exceptions)
The term "The fourth wall" is derived from this very practise. Think of an actor on the stage. The audience see three walls, to side of, and behind the actor, but there is no wall between the audience ands the actor - the audience needs to see what's going on. This means that, for the actor, facing the audience causes a constant reminder that they are not the character they are portraiting. They need to find a way to make their mind see a fourth wall, instead of what their eyes tell them is there - an audience. This is all figurative of course, it doesn't have to be a wall,m it could be a field of roses, in which case the actor will try to see the roses, see the horizon, and even smell the roses. It takes a lot of introspective work, and flexing of one's imaginative abilities, but once this techniue is mastered, bringing it into roleplaying is purely magical.
One thing that makes this kind of roleplaing method significantly easier than stage work, is the fact that the actor on stage always knows what's going to happen, having read the script. They have to make themselves feel like they are experiencing, and are surprised by, the story night after night after night. Not going to go into depth as o how to do this in a youtube comment, but there are some really good exercises to achieve this.
I understand that most people don't want to spend years perfecting various acting techniques just to spice up their roleplaying but I still want to recommend it, it's one the most amazing experiences I've ever had.
Word of warning though, when you go into this level of immersion, bleed becomes a very real risk. This is where the emotions you experience bleed over to you. For me, after a particularily tragic scene, it means I can burst into tears from just being reminded of the session for days, or even weeks after having played it. This becomes an even more signifcant risk when applying this technique to larping, but oh my god, the immersive experience when larping with full emotional immersion is nothing short of magical. I have been CLOSE to what you described as total immersion (you still have to be aware of the LARPs safety rules, this is every player's responsibility)
This comment is becoming way too long, but I would love to talk about this, this is my absolute favourite subject to talk about and, in case you couldn't tell, I have some interesting experiences and techniques to share. So... drop me a line if you feel like it! And if you read all the way through, wow! Thanks!
@Catarinasunnergren Which acting techniques do you think would be the most productive for gamers and others who are interested in exploring this sort of immersion in a character?
@@NickHollingsworthUK I should start by saying that the following is what works for me. In the acting world, I always suggest people homebrew their own technique using different branches of Stanislavski as building blocks, with one one in particular as a base. People are different and our emotions are triggered in different ways, reflected by the different techniques are out there. But, biased as I may be, I do think there is some logic to the collection of methods I have gathered.
Base: Stella Adler. Adler puts a lot of focus on backstory and mundane details. She suggested exercises in the actor’s daily löife to pay attention to, and be made aware of the little things. The texture of the floor against your feet, the weight of that apple in your hand, the aftertaste in your mouth after breakfast. Once your brain is good at instantly imagining these things, start adding them to your character’s backstory, mundane scenes with memories from your childhood, big events sure, but also the normal day-to-day where you formed your sense of security. Then add these little sensory details in all of these scenes, the more you can use the 5 senses the better.
Then I add some of the principles of Meisner, who believes character immersions happens in the relationship between characters, though I don’t like using my own relationship as a substitute for my characters, but that’s a matter of taste. I assess all characters, PCs and NPCs alike, and figure out what I think of them and what I expect from them, and think of someone, at least from my past that they remind me of. “People who are X usually do Y”.
Then, lastly, if I don’t feel like I can fully step into the character, I spice it up with a little bit of Michael Chekhov, who placed body before mind in acting. I don’t like that idea as a basis but as sprinkles on the surface it can work quite well. Figure out how the character moves, their mannerisms and physical habits and mentally connect those to everything else you’ve done, then a simple hand gesture or head-tilt can work as the trigger that wakes the character up in your mind and you’re there.
Stella Adler as a base doesn’t only help with immersing yourself into the character itself, but also makes you better at absorbing whatever the GM gives you to play with and experience.
Do you have suggestions for further study of this topic?
@@Aeterus I would say try it out, experiment, and talk about it with others who are doing the same. It is an immensely interesting topic and amazing to practice. I apply this in a character driven episodic LARP and I have learned SO much by doing that.
But I suppose a good first step is to create a conversation.
Great exploration of this weird and wonderful aspect of RPGs. Weird to an adult, but completely obvious to us as kids. Er...the immersion, not the mushrooms
😄 Shiitake maybe!
Got me wondering why kids might have such strong imaginative tendencies - perhaps the more we know about the world the less we need to rely on it?
@@TheTombofLimeGaming I would suspect that is exactly it. As one gains more life experience, one also inevitably develops more heuristics based on that experience, and begins to rely more on these known models of reality than one's imagination or even reality itself. Clearing away these heuristics is the explicit aim of zen meditation (at least in the Soto tradition) and it is in that practice that I have found myself the closest to my childhood experience.
The most immersive games I have played have been online. Lights out, comfortable clothes. VTT to handle dice rolls and to display some images & play some music mostly just to hold the basic imaginative frame. No webcam video. No battlemaps. All out of character talk is by voice and preferably kept to a minimum, all in-character description & dialogue is via text. Dice rolls only when actually necessary. Preferably 2-3 players only, including GM. 4 players max.
Here's something that makes or breaks my immersion.
A sense of normality. Too often I end up playing in these super high fantasy settings. Dragons and wizards rule the world and magic is in everything. That wouldn't be so bad if the adventure we went on was implicitly "another tuesday," but I'm then told (either via a knowledge check or from an NPC talking) that the adventure we're on is somehow the exception to everything that goes on. So not only is the world completely strange and unfamiliar, but also the thing we're doing is somehow MORE strange and MORE unfamiliar. I just can't tell the difference, to be frank! "You're telling me it was previously inconceivable that fairy skeletons would raid this town? THAT part was myth and legend? The whole town is normally run by goblin monks that shoot laser beams!"
Bottom line, I just want to be aware of what's NORMAL in a world, so I know to be shocked and surprised when the cool things happen. Either that or merely to appreciate how different the world is from our own.
That's a concept I've never thought of before. Thanks for sharing that, man. Absolutely something to think about. Wow.
This is something you should be bringing up at every session 0. "What is "normal" in this world"? So then you can be excited over something when it's out of that range. And if your GM is all over the place, roleplaying how your group can't believe this is in the world they built based off their own session 0 notes, should bring them back in line or force them to give better build up for the world
@MattSchieler That would be fine and dandy, but some GMs just want to run the default world that a game provides. Dnd's "Faerun" or Pathfinder's "Golarion" have this problem built in it, so if a GM isn't comfortable enough to establish a world of their own, well... there you go.
@@WaterTheBoy Most of the pre-written content gives the GM this information. And its not hard to deduce this from a quick read through before session 0 to give this information to the players. This is something all GM's should be doing and if they don't you should be asking if its something important to you. Even if they don't have an answer, they can find out for your first session
And anyway, if its a world that is already established and you know the GM is going to run it canon... then its easy for you to quickly search about this world to understand what to expect. Then you can also build solid character backgrounds within the world you'll be playing in
@@MattSchieler You make it sound easier than it is. Establishing a sense of "normality" isn't exactly a cake walk. There are hours upon hours of lore and content from these fantasy settings. Seldom is even the most mundane detail the exact same as it is in real life. Sometimes, there's just NO detail on a subject! I've asked GMs about something like the economy. A mundane thing we interact with every day, but they wouldn't be able to find the Dollar to Coin ration for Waterdeep (for example) and giving a rundown on how the economy works at any given time is difficult. There are many complex factors involved and I expect no GM to be fully read up on how that works, be it for a fantasy world or reality.
And this is also assuming that the economy is relevant to establishing normality in the context of the game! If we don't interact with money (again, for example), we can't know if it'll come up or matter, especially since there's so much improvisation involved at play.
To clarify, my original comment never meant to imply that establishing normality is easy. Just that it does effect my immersion and that pre-existing game worlds try so hard to be fantastical that it leaves many GMs with a difficult to avoid problem.
As an Evil DM, I describe a scene and ask players what they see and add from their perspective the thing I want them to interact with. 🧙♂🧙♂
interesting. Do share some examples. Would love to hear more of this approach.
@@Frostrazor The players after clearing a bandits camps, find a fine warhorse, I ask them what color is the warhorse one player want a black warhorse for a long time, so I say roll your faith she role a % dice and get 39, so now she need to role again and role below 39%, she usually miss for some strange reason, so the horse is brown. the player get to influence the games and aid me in the narrations of the games. 😅😅☕☕
Thank you for the tuition, sensei.
I tell my players that verbing (thank you for the term) belongs to them, the mechanics to me, the GM.
I have attempted to run what I call a Meditative RPG (MRPG, thank you) - I prepped a map of a small island with a handful of locations and objects, pretty much just like I would as a DM. Then I sat with my friend in the dark with a candle burning and we meditated for ten minutes. I began: "You are waking up. The sound of water dripping somewhere echoes throughout this place. It sounds cavernous. It is dark. You see a patch of light off in the distance. Do you go towards the light or will you explore the sound of water?" This went on for about a half hour as he explored the island and discovered a pile of corpses washed ashore. It was interesting but we never did it again. I think it lacked game mechanics. If I were to do it again, I would take a system like Cairn and keep track of his character sheet (inventory slots etc) and then if combat were to happen, I'd know what buffs his weapons and items did and roll dice with my eyes open on his behalf. I think it needs a strict set of guidelines where the DM presents the world, offers choices and the player makes statements. If anyone wants to develop this idea hit me up :)
love this video, anything that provides players the tools needed to become immersed is great.
i work super hard to ensure the feeling of the game is immersive and roleplay-centric as a GM. I think my efforts contradict some of your points, but i think there are many types of immersion as you stated and my games have my flavor of it.
I think the main ways I try to immerse the players are with the miniatures used in combat, being custom painted and often custom sculpted to match whatever eldritch horror i’ve cooked up that week. Each model has my painting style and looks cohesive with the terrain I use, creating a very specific look for the world matching my auditory descriptions.
Music is next; I take inspiration from the dark souls series, with actual music only appearing at important character moments and combat - bosses get fromsoftware operatic numbers and everything else gets very simple orchestral music with just enough beat to keep everyone on their toes. I layer different tabs of youtube to have the various ambiences of whatever area they are in, played at a really low volume to simulate being there physically.
Next is the descriptions - in my life i take note of the first things that i notice about somewhere i am, the smell, the framing of the room and where my eyes are drawn. As closely as I can i mimic that in my descriptions, trying to point out significant things about at least 2 senses for each scene.
I really think that if everyone at the table is committed to having an immersive roleplay experience, it will happen. that being said, you can’t just plop down immersive elements and expect it to happen immediately. It needs to be fostered and formed starting at session 0 and strengthened with each session
What you call imaginative immersion, is what I'm calling mindscaping. The GM is describing a scene, and im painting the picture in my mind from what he says. And then I expand the mindscape with my own additions, of where my character is, what he does, and what I say. And together we evolve and change the scene.
Trying to think if there is a difference between your definition and mine, or if it's just semantics, haha. Great video. I look forward to these.
two thoughts I have after listening to your points:
- I doubt imagined sensory experiences are the core of roleplay immersion since I have friend who has both aphantasia and no mental speech and still get's immersed in the universe through other angles. (like being invested in driving character relationships and a strong understanding of what might follow and be versimilitudinous.)
In essence I think the ability to understand what the imaginary world is like and what your role would make of it next is not necessarily related to the ability to envision it. I'd attribute that to the word "imagination" implying images where it's more of a side effect of the thought process.
-For me music is powerful but just like narration it can be used to dictate how players should feel. If you use sad music to say "this npc death is sad" you are kind of doing the same thing as saying "you feel sad". I've done it, but I think it require reading the room and playing the music after it's clear that's what the players are living, and not preparing the music and the scene as a forced moment. I select music extremely actively during sessions I DM, changing it multiple times per scenes if needed to match what I think is the atmospheres of the moment. It's rewarding and difficult but I wouldn't do it differently now that I've seen the fruits.
Sorry this isn't the most condensed thoughts ever, I'm typing this on a short break !
I LOVE that you're talking about immersion while professionally using an SM57. Instantly got me to buy into the video.
Forcing players to speak in character was the single thing that ruined my home game. We had a friend who was very shy and new to rp and I was a newer dm so I didn't realize at the time that speaking in character made her feel like a baby playing pretend, and made her interactions very rare or bringing an awkward energy to the table that e everyone felt.
In the end letting her summarize her speech, with me occasionally giving out specific sentences that she said based on what she said for drama or details that were necessary made everyone at the table more immersed and happy
She should have just gotten over that feeling and tried something new. Making the DM play her character for her wasn't the correct decision, and your other players probably had their immersion lessened for it.
I agree! Not everyone plays the same way. You are not playing the game wrong, if it's not super immersive.
Being completely immersed is great, and if that is everyones goal at the table, I applaud you. But if you as a group decide, that to let everyone have as much fun as possible, you need to tone down the immersiveness, then that's the best decision.
I liked your ideas. I used to GM for about 20 year, about 20 years ago. It was replaced by writing, directing and working with actors, and I guess I find that immersion in exploring a scene with actors. In fact, I recently got back into rpgs, but with such theatrical friends we almost automatically add to and progress each others threads and immersion
I definitely think you can forget who you are for a bit in a larp, but in a tabletop game this is a strong case for a minimalist approach. The characters and games that I remember the most vividly are usually from games that had very few set pieces. In those other games, I remember the set pieces.
Great stuff, Matt. There's so much we can do to strengthen immersion in our games.
This is what (ultimately) led me to try full rules opacity for the players in order to avoid all mental Switching Costs (between mechanics & events).
Ever since you've mentioned this style of GMing, my mind has been abuzz with what a rule-set might look like when tooled specifically for it. I look forward to what you come up with!
@@TheTombofLimeGaming - It was a huge piece of the puzzle for me in the paradigm shift away from a board gaming mentality. It really works in helping the players bind themselves to their characters' POV (if they want that, of course). YT won't allow links in here, but I can put one in your Disc channel.
Bro you and the ADHDM are so underrated
Greetings from Brasil!
I came across this video a couple of days ago and binge watched all the others from your channel since. I really like your points and agree with most of what you've been saying. I'd love for you to tell more about things you do on your table. Mechanics, and exemples of things you apply, maybe even some real cases of your game, just so it could be a little more concrete. I guess I've been getting a lot of what you don't like but less of what you do like and would love to learn more! Keep on the very good work you've been doing! Thanks.
Collaborative creation of the world in my experience make it more immersive. My players feel they own more the world when we do it, also often the invented things merge together better than what expected.
Corkboards & Curiosities also brought out a video about player immersion. its funny how both of you brought the cinema experience in different ways into your videos
Ive long been thinking about creating an rpg that uses some kind of a sound device instead of dice. You press sth and you get one of 4 sounds meaning success, crit success, failure and crit failure.
You would play in near dark. Just one Oil lamp in the middle. Also I find sitting on the ground instead of chairs helps with imagination.
There is ofc the problem of differentiating characters. Maybe there are 3 or even 5 buttons to press each of them leading to different chances for success and failure and the GM judges for each character in what situation the player gets to press which button.
Immersion is impossible without engagement. The majority of people I know who play TTRPG's have ADHD. That means it is hard to keep engagement, and minimal stimulation is frustrating and aversive. Rich VTT elements are highly attractive to the ADHD mind.
What a great video. Really put into perspective all the typed of immersion ive been involved in with all the ttrpg games ive played.
On your note of "Verbing", i actually want to express from my experience that this actually is not a bad thing. In a current game of Curse of Strahd I'm GMing for, the group expressed in the session 0 that they were a shy bunch and they were generally incapabale of getting the ball rolling on their own.
Now i wasnt just going to leave them high and dry, i offered to temporarily control their character in a guided way until they were inspired to take the reigns. And so far this method has been working well. I would literally tell them what their character is doing and/or feeling in one senstence. And once they felt comfortable, they would take over. So far my players have expressed they are very happy.
There are caveats however. First, when a GM does this, they must do it in a way that aligns with the player's vision of the character, which means more communication is required to ensure both the GM and player are aligned with the character's actions.
The second thing is the GM must show restraint and discipline when assisting players in this way. I have found it very easy to fall into the trap of describing a characters actions like a book instead of a guideline on where the players can start their roleplay. I have established with my players thay they are welcome to interrupt me if i were to take an action the character wouldnt do or if ive controled the character for too long.
Just like with all tables, this requires communication of expecation and boundries, but it may require a little bit more than usual. And it may seem like more work on the GM, but ive used this to my advantage to actually guide the story along instead of having players totally going on a tangent in the world.
As ive said, its actually working very well so far, and the players are very happy with how its going. So with the right expectstions, verbing isnt a totally bad thing.
This one got me thinking! Thanks for the awesome video. Now, to find the players who want to try something weird. XD
Fascinating bit of rpg philosophy! Thank you!
I value immersion quite highly in an rpg but I might have a different take on what it means to me than to you or others may have. As a person with hyper sensitivities being relatively comfortable physically is an even higher priority than for most. I've actually also connected my preference for relatively simple rpg systems and theatre of the mind to being aphantasiac (or hypophantasic?).
This leaves room for me to immerse myself in my character and the situation/world despite not having a clear visual imagining of things. I would say for me immersion is more a mental thing than sensory related. Music in games also often irritates me.
Reading about the experiences of aphantasics, someone said that they still enjoyed reading novels but basically ignored/glossed over visual descriptions, preferring dialogue and action and so on. I imagine that depending on people's differing sensitivities different aspects of any imaginative endeavour (including TTRPGs) will appeal to them.
I wonder if connecting with, and playing with, players that have the same levels of mental visualisation as us would lead to more satisfying experiences? Or maybe we just have a GM that understands what appeals to us and can accomodate it?
@@TheTombofLimeGaming When I read fiction I enjoy immersing myself in the story of the characters but also I seem to prefer interesting worlds, societies etc so systems basically. Complex systems fascinate me and draw me into non-fiction books and articles.
As a player I'm most happy when I can immerse in my character and actively roleplay interactions with the game situations. I could see another aphantasic prefer to create character builds in modern D&D and play combats on a grid 😅 I guess my preference is a combination of wanting opportunities for roleplay immersion while not being distracted too much by crunch and physical props such as a grid.
Hold on! Isn't the player acting from meta-level when they're narrating the character's actions in the game. They're not roleplaying at that moment, right? Is only dialogue roleplaying? Anyways. I don't like players speaking only in character. There's too much wrong interpretations what they actually mean to say or do.
Oh yeah, great content! 👍
Psychedelic plants have had an influence on the way I think about and run the game, I'm glad others in the community are acknowledging their connection.
That said, DMing on mushrooms is a cool idea, but in practice it's really difficult!
I would add the importance of memory: the PCs memory, as recalled through the player’s imagination, but also the player’s memory of playing the PC. These become touchstones of character for the roleplayer to use as they create new PC memories.
I played War of the Ring board game all weekend with my best friend while we were stoned on shrooms and playing the LOTR trilogy soundtrack. Coincidentally the music always seemed to match with what we were doing and i got so immersed in the experience that i had a panic attack. It was awesome.
No verbing! Exactly. Another excellent video. Thanks for putting better words to our clumsy attempts to describe co-creation for a more immersive experience.
I struggle with this but have always been aware of it! One day I will quell it fully but currently its a bad habit in my writing style
Really great video!
I love to use music as an immersive aid - BUT, it has to be instrumental, thematic, and appropriate to the scene/setting etc.
I’ve spent an awful lot of time compiling various playlists, and have always had extremely positive feedback from players.
I should mention, also, that I largely play online, so players have the freedom to set their own volume levels, or even to mute the music if they need to, which I think is very, very important.
Immersion isn't impossible, however it is fleeting. Mechanics/gameplay (that is, the G in our RPG) are inherently anti-immersion as it is solely the player who interacts with them and not the character. Taking the approach of the video enhances and prolongs the periods of fleeting immersion which, without question, improves the overall experience.
I love immersion in both movies and books. I imagine the immersion we feel when reading is closer to what we might experience in a roleplaying game.
Your main point seems to be: To reach immersion, reduce distractions - including game mechanics themselves. This got me thinking about page-turning in books. It's an "out-of-world mechanic" that doesn't break immersion because it's so simple. Maybe we need something similar for our games?
I think your points about simplicity are key. For true immersion, game mechanics and character details need to be "uploaded to RAM," becoming background processes like page-turning.
If the "G" in RPG always fights immersion, are there ways to smoothly transition between immersed and non-immersed states?
Thanks for another thought-provoking video. Each one helps me understand your unique perspective on RPGs more clearly. Looking forward to the next!
I have come to a simiiar conclusion bout character info and game mechanics occupying your RAM.
I made a video on it on RUclips "bandwitdh & mental stack", trying to formalize this into terms that might be helpful for gm's and players out there.
We all have a limited "bandwidth". Keeping track of names & factions, items and ambitions, but also game mechanics and what we want to eat for diiner. Even stuff like "my gf broke up with me" can occupy our bandwidth. So you want to limiz those fistractions as much as possible at the game table, so you have more bandwidth for roleplay at the table.
Good vid, really helped me with some nuance and perspective about some things
What grants me a chance for immersion:
- neutral visual focus, such as a candle, (not darkness, not pictures)
- the exact right expectations for play style/genre/etc
- If it’s a somewhat trad game, I need everyone to treat my character as separate from me, as in the game world, as in a real world; I don’t care what happens to my character, as long as it’s real
- (trad) either a GM I can trust to not pull any punches, or a system to govern outcomes. My rolls/mechanics must directly represent my character in the world, and the outcomes of those mechanics may only be a direct result of my character in that world.
- pizza
1.) In the surrealistic French indie game Dragonfyl Motel it's explicitly forbidden to talk about anything outside of the game, and you aren't allowed to comment on the game or to speculate about what is happening, what it all means etc. All interpretation of the game happens after the game is over. The only things you can do is enter a scene, leave a scene, play a character or play an object. There is no game master, as is typical of indie games. The experience is extremely immersive and psychedelic, and not coincidentally, the creator also suggests comfortable seating and minimalistic, bizarre music, and alludes to the game being compatible with mind-altering substances.
2.) How do you feel about "verbing" at players in horror games? I believe it can create a disturbing, invasive experience when describing things the character is feeling or thinking, creating the implication that some things about themselves are outside of their control. To be used sparingly, of course.
Only a few seconds in, but that was a great intro sound.
Analytic Idealism
I'm interested if you have thoughts on the intersection of mindfulness and immersion. can mindfulness meditation and mindfulness in general help you gain a new level of immersion?
watched this while high on shrooms, took me a long long time to realize that the video was in black and white
My favorite way to create immersion is by using text chat, a la IRC from back in the day. It’s slower, but for life-long readers it’s extremely immersive.
So no roleplay then.
It's all Role-playing actually, live text games are like writing a novel together.
@@PoisonxAlchemist Writing a book is not roleplaying, though.
It can be, for my games we only communicate through text in my VTT sessions and people feel immersion because there's little opportunity for background chatter from the real world to disrupt the flow of immersion. @@SHONNER
@@heliomachit5651 No in-character roleplay. Hard pass.
I start DMing not so long ago and I love the Avatar Legends system build on Pbta. But it is not an easy system imo to start with. I think this system is ideal for imersion but you have to know the rules so well and know how to deal with events in the campaign that are not under rules. (But I guese that the rule ofthumb is that is it is not in the rulebook the game mechanicsdon't care about it.) The players I am DMing for do not have the habit of codeciding much for now.
I am looking forward to imporving my DM skills.
I'm not a fan of using music in session nor the over-reliance on visual medium or sound effects, hand-outs or other gimmicks. All those things bring me back at the table, so that could very well align with what you are talking about here.
To clarify, the GM is not also trying to have an immersive experience, correct? The GM is sacrificing their immersion for the players’ sake? Or are immersing themselves in the role of omniscient creator god?
Well, I think the GM should be role-playing the NPCs, not controlling them like a god, but I dare say the GM will have a harder time with this kind of immersion than a player who has only one character to focus on.
Personally, I can get immersed in an NPC if they're well fleshed out, but throwaways that are just there in passing, not so much. It's more like visualising the PCs from a distance, not unlike reading a novel.
im a gm with aphantasia…… so i LOVEEE gm’ing😆😆😆😆
This seems like a fun channel with good production, even if simple. Maybe it's just that you're charming. I generally don't expect much from channels with low suscriber numbers, but your perspective seems more interesting than just "I played more RPGs than you".
Summary: You're cool
Great stuff
Immersion. Easy these days: just remove any social media. You will experience an immersion like no other. Better than drugs.
Mushrooms do definitely help the immersion if you dont go to heavy on em
Hmm... when you talk about conjuring mental imagery, it does sound like magic; though, it's limited to a certain plane of reality - our shared imagination.
I've done verbing a couple of times, guilty as charged, and it felt incredibly awkward for the characters to experience the inability to act by their own volition, a suffocating sensation that only made them ponder over their existence.
Use that in a controlled environment to keep them pondering their imagined existence.
Yeah what kind of music/sound should you play? I'd say something like pink noise wouldn't be a bad place to start. Maybe ambiance soundtracks like rainfall or fire crackling. Something to fill the background and limit outside distractions.
Music is fun. But music can distract from the game. I like it as a tool, because i enjoy "putting on a show", similiar to a host or a DJ I guess. But if you play a song from the beatles, the players will definetly get distracted from the roleplay and just think "why is the beatles playing?"
I use videogame music, but i try to usr older games for reference that my players have not played, so it doesn't trigger a memory for them.
@Zonalar yeah that's what I think. That's why white noise or a rainfall track might be go to.
Of course you're gonna achieve immersion when you're high on shrooms
Great video, it really got my curiosity spinning. It seems to me immersion is a passive, dare I say introverted activity. Is it going to be possible to sustain in a social and more importantly collaborative game? Most animals seem to be able to dream. Humans developed language and then developed the ability to share their dreams. It is useful to be able to immerse yourself in Grandads most exciting hunt I guess and where Mum last found water. But it seems to be a bit like Schrodinger's cat, as soon as your conscious mind kicks in to translate your thoughts back into human, the immersion collapses.
Ultimately our internal visualisations are exclusively our own, but, I find that when other players are immersed and in-character, adding to the depth and detail of the world that it helps _facilitate_ my immersion, which helps me role-play, which continues this feedback loop. Gotta have the right players though!
I've been thinking about how games are similar to a shared dream. In a dream you simply go with what's presented and integrate it into the narrative. I think it's important to choose what parts of your game lack rules on purpose... That's why I prefer not to have social stats. But that's me unburying the old hatchet. Hahaha 😂
Darkness, I think helps immersion... and no damn cell phones!
It does seem impossible to get some people to talk in character instead of asking constant meta questions. They're still good players but are either not capable of being in character or don't find it fun.
Ganzfeld effect is maybe an explanation for kozyrev mirror experiences?? 🤯🤔
I call it immersion with the fiction as opposed to immersion in the character. And it seems that most plays who speak o immersion only speak of the latter one, and think only about getting immersed with their character and not get transported into the fiction as a whole independent from the figure they own. I certainly seek that immersion into the fiction, that is what I am concerned with in the techniques I talk about in my own system and I teach players. Like for example I prefer players to play their characters expressive, so that they become more palpable for everyone at the table, not just the player who plays inward and thus tries to be only in the head of their character.
I would say the cocreation can be immersive, it is all about reaching that flow state. If one remains in a state of thinking how this benefits their character, then it is irrelevant if they are in a cocreation mode or not, they will not fall into the fiction or their character. The best cocreation is expressive, if you try to add to the fiction to show the character and thus create a draw for everyone into the fiction. That is why I say it might be better to portray the characters in third person, and not first person! That does not mean the player have to be distanced from the character. Quite the opposite, stay emotional close to the character, use direct speech when the character talks, but frame the actions of the character in third person. Why? In other media there exists the idea of "show, don't tell" and well using first person lets people fall into a telling mode, while third person makes it much easier to show, and thus play in a much more immersive mode. And yes, if the players do not play in first person, then there is also no reason for the GM to play in second person. However, I would not say that the GM should play using only a passive voice, instead I would suggest using verbs, but not for the player character, but instead make the environment active. Instead of saying: "it is cold" say something like: "the cold creeps into the building." Again: showing, not telling! That create much more atmosphere and makes immersion much easier.
I imagine that immersion in fiction is the primary way that most people experience this kind of thing at all, thanks to novels and similar. Even when reading a novel written in first person I don't get immersed in that character, it's more like they're telling me the story, rather than me being that character, which is why I think in-character immersion is a selling point for RPGs because it better offers us something you don't get in those other mediums.
I don't think character immersion should hurt fiction immersion, rather, I'd say they can reinforce each other - after all, I experience my actual life in first person and don't have a problem interacting with the world because of it! You're right though, I want my players to interact with the world as much as possible, not just be disembodied characters, but grounded ones.
And yes. 'it's cold' was just a throwaway - describing the in world effects _of_ the cold would be better for immersion!
@@TheTombofLimeGaming Sure, you experience your life in 1st person, but there you have all the work done for you and do not need to express yourself in a manner that other people can visualise you, that all happens automatically. But in a roleplaying game, where everything is just in the imagination of the people around, there when you fail to express your character you leave the other people hanging with a bland void they cannot fill since you gave them not enough in your egoism to think only about your character.
@@Drudenfusz I don't disagree! I think it's a mark of a good role-player to express themselves exactly as you describe - I just don't think that _has_ to be in third-person to be 'expressive.'
Is there an example you can think of, of an action a player could take that could _only_ be described in third person? I don't really want the players describing their character's inner thoughts or anything, just what they do - their interactions with the world - on every turn they anchor themselves to the fiction, and the other players are all adding this to their own mental image of the world. It's very collaborative, and no more egoist than normal human experiences.
'I stand up abruptly, knocking my chair over backwards and slam my palms on the table.'
The chair, the table, the action, it's all anchoring the character to the world - I'm not sure what third person narration would add to this?
id like to think this is possible with solo play but the physical material would have to be limited to dice, and a simplified (index card) character sheet, this would keep you immersed rather than shuffling through pages
Are you joining the 4d rpg crusade?
I really appreciate your point of view, but I'm having a hard time telling whether it might just be a hypothetical utopian vision of how RP could work if the most talented and quick minded people found each other somehow. I suppose it could still be worth striving for in any case - keeping a consistent group, practising collaborative world building, moving to ever more free-form and rules-light systems - even if this perfectly immersive emergent story experience remains out of reach forever.
It's being done. It's not out of reach. The problem is most people don't care to try or look for roleplay.
@@SHONNERexception not the rule. We live in dark times.
@@edgeofnothing67 Yes. Most people don't have videos on their RUclips channels. Just as they don't roleplay in their roleplaying games.
Hyperphantasia has always put me in a mindset of feeling abject horror at the idea of having no visual imagination. Even worse would be having no inner voice. It sounds like a hell specially made for me. But if its all you know, i guess one wouldnt feel that way. It seems boring and sad, and a life of boredom and sadness is death for me.
Funniest thumbnail of all time 💀💀
P-zombie, huh? Sounds like the debate on autonomous complex GPT agents will go to whether or not they are P-zombies or if the internal analysis of ideas and perceptions is what an internal experience really is.
I larped once on some acid I found. Good times.
😂😂
Did the rest of the LARPers appreciate your state of mind as much as you did, I wonder? 😂
@@TheTombofLimeGaming my buddy did but he was a huge Scottish guy in a kilt and a pink tie-dye. Most couldn't tell...I think.
Great video! This is something I've been trying to achieve on my own channel; how to keep myself and the listeners immersed in the world/story. Check it out any advice you'd have would be very appreciated 👍🏻
Though I've done many substances (LSD. Mushrooms, Various-Cannabis, Opiates) through my "Rockstar" musical days... I know I cannot DM/GM/Play a game while on such hard-substances. I lose focus and tend to wander off. Though... there might be a day that I smoke some grass and run a game just to see if its possible.
The research is still ongoing, but there might be a link between micro-dosing psychedelics and creativity, so maybe there's application there somewhere. Who knows what's on the frontier of TTRPG experiences?
@@TheTombofLimeGaming I've DM'd a few times on mushrooms, between 1-2g each time, and those were some of the most creative free flowing games I've ever played. For me It's similar to something like alcohol where it removes some of my inhibitions and gives me more confidence except with mushrooms my confidence is taken to an 11 and my anxiety dissapears. I gain a childlike imagination and fascination with everything happening, I feel that I can fully immerse my brain with all of the friciton removed. Late last year was the first time I had ever tried mushrooms and after the first few doses I was pulled from a 2 year long depression. I was elated, happier than I've been in years, and was filled with more love for the world than ever before. I still carry some of that with me. I can't wait for more research to come out, I believe in it's medicinal and therapuetic potential.
Sounds exactly like what I've heard for about a decade about this and true to the end of the video I'm in the group of people that this doesn't work for, because neither do I ever imagine myself as being a character of a book or movie. Those are just stories, separate from reality, and in large part it's GMing that made this divide deeply entrenched in my head, spilling into all other media.
At this point I simply don't accept players who are looking for immersion at my table cause they're just a lot of trouble to accomodate.
I wouldn't say I imagine myself as a character from a book when I read them (does anyone?), rather that I just form a mental image of what is being described. Which is part of why RPGs in particular provide a different experience to other media because of your inhabiting of a character.
Certainly when I don't care to be immersed in an imaginary world I don't play immersive games. Sometimes you want something immersive like _The Witcher,_ sometimes you want something game-y like _Super Meat Boy._ Sometimes you want an immersive novel like _Lord of the Rings,_ sometimes immersion is undesirable in a book, like if you're studying a textbook for an exam. RPGs are well suited for immersion because RPGs are generally hyper focussed on the players _playing the role of a character,_ it sounds like players who don't want immersion would best be served by board games (but then again, many RPGs are mostly board games anyway).
@@TheTombofLimeGaming not really, personally I don't care for board games because they lack the world simulation (or more accurately a sandbox of a world that can be interacted with in unplanned for ways, unlike video games) and story creation.
I enjoy playing the character with consideration for their personality, but it's a model or thought experiment, I don't mimic their emotions (for example I can see character's total failure due to his flaws that I played to as deserved and not feel any sadness about it).
Honestly the attitude of "true roleplayers" is annoying, you're a selfish nuisance at any table that doesn't purely consist of people with the same goal AND snobby gatekeepers within the community, seemingly oblivious to the fact that your style of play was not the original one in RPGs and it sure as hell isn't an universally agreed on pinnacle of play. But that doesn't stop you from proclaiming yourself to be the only ones who deserve of the title of RPG players whilst others should just play board games or write a book instead.
i swear it said mushrooms a second ago
What systems do you personally like to get more immersion? Or does it really not matter?
The kind where die roll mechanics are made quickly.
@SHONNER i like roll under systems which seem to achieve that
@@jamesmks If you and your players can make them quickly.
I felt real immersion, but only on larps and on very scars occasions. But I don't think my fun or excitement for RPGs suffers from meta stuff .. at least not so much as where I can no longer have fun.
There's more to roleplaying than just "fun."
@@SHONNER hmm. I don’t know. I had TTRPG sessions and LARP conventions that were not fun and man let me tell you: if it’s not fun, out of character, there is not much left. Even if there is more than fun to RPGs my goal is to do everything for me and others that makes the game more fun.
@@Frederic_S LARPing is not roleplay. LARPing is cosplay.
@@SHONNER that may be true in some cases but were I live Larping is roleplaying. It checks all the boxes other then rolling dice. But I don’t think that is necessary for playing a roleplaying game.
I have seen too many bad feelings caused by players not emotionally separating themselves from their characters to want to play that way.
Ok. But I just want to play a game…not have some sort of phyco-trip.
You do you, I guess.
Requests:
1. Can you please stop starting your video with that drum sound and black screen? What the hell even is that? It just looks like you forgot to put the name of your channel in
2. I know you enjoy waxing philosophical and talking about all these ideals, and I know you’re very skeptical of rules, but if this channel is supposed to be an invitation to use your techniques/style, your videos could benefit from more practical examples of the way you do things versus other people.