Born in Wankie and raised in Bulawayo. I’m one of the displaced Rhodesians living in the northern hemisphere now and still Rhodesian, no matter where I live. I am SOOOOOOO proud of my Rhodesian heritage and Rhodesian people, no matter what an ignorant world says about us
Never forget... We were some frenchies on DC3 with weapons for rhodesian people. Friendly and courageous people and a so beautiful country destroyed by war between usa and ussr. Lost paradise. Tears in my heart. Never forget
I’m English. I love all these videos on this channel. I’m very interested in the story of Rhodesia. I’m disgusted at the part played by the British government in the demise of Rhodesia!
Technically speaking, it was the single tribe who created England, United States, Bolshevik Russia, CCP China who waged the war on Rhodesia's Blancs. They, too, are the same tribe who created marxism in 1848 Anno Domini within City of London.
I am so thankful for my Rhodesian heritage - there’s no place like home. My late parents felt the same. My father, who fought in the Rhodesian war, just died in 2019 in South Africa but his heart was always in Rhodesia
As a Rhodesian in exile with a further track record in other African countries, most notable Nigeria I must say I agree with Duncan that once the milk is spilt there really is no way to recover to another reality. Yes, there were many events that could have changed the course of history starting at the referendum that led to self rule but what happened, happened and here we are. Some pine for the good old days, others mourn the mistakes. What cannot be denied is that after the second world war, we Rhodesians lived a charmed life in the anachronism that Rhodesia quickly became. I am forever grateful for that charmed existence which certainly benefited me working in many parts of the world. Such a pity that for so many still living there this has become impossible for the vast majority.
Also spent a few years in Nigeria Elias, Lekki based but travelled up North Niger border and East to Harcourt very often. It's a cracking place once you get your head around it. lol.
What a great chat about the last Rhodesians. Being born in Bulawayo and schooled mainly in Gwelo I can still remember the great Rhodesia I used to live in. Although still missed, am very happy to have fled to South Africa with 3 kids and an old Ford Cortina. South Africa has been very kind to me and my family, and I will be eternally grateful for that. Amazing how your own kind can forsake you due to British politics at the time. Certainly leaves a bad taste. Anyway, thank you Duncan. John and Hannes for your informative and honest session. Well done.
An amazing video. I was born in Southern Rhodesia and still remember the day UDI was declared. My children were born in Southern Rhodesia I always say I come from the lost country due to the fact Rhodesia is not on the map. I now live in Canada as does my eldest son. Two of my children remain in South Africa. Rhodesia was an amazing country and a wonderful place to grow up in. I still have family in Bulawayo Rhodesia the town I was born in. It is the only town which has not had its name changed due to the fact that Bulawayo is an African name. Cecil John Rhodes face on it. I am an accountant by profession and continue to work in Canada.
With trades, literature, the hunting, fishing, farms, and other useful civilized activities, can help areas be habitable. The wrong person's were backed up.
Thanks for this presentation. I've met a few Rhodesians over the years. Their unique characters stood them out but their nationality was a common thread. None failed to impress.
I really like this question and answers time on what is to me a great topic which is Rhodesia! I was there from1977 to 1980. I then went to South Africa until 1982. best 4 1/2 years of my life. My best time was in Rhodesia. Thank you and Mr. Duncan Clarke for your time and effort in this production.
Fascinating stuff guys, look forward to the book. For us that are in our late 40s, early 50's, it's like having a hole in your life from the age of 10. You don't belong anywhere, living in diaspora is freedom but sometimes it can be very lonely in reflection, especially during university and college years. I don't think it will ever go away.
if I can humbly offer a suggestion, allow yourself to 'move on'. Indulging that homesickness, for want of a better word, can be dangerous, take one to dark places..
@@alnonickname570 I certainly don't go looking for it Al, just sometimes when you listen to others talking about their "homes" and are able to still go there and live it, thats when it hits. Normally after a family get together with the in-laws for example. I am a lucky guy, I spent my teens in Canada and the UK, travelled the World with work then semi retired to Australia with my wife. I've been very lucky indeed.
Mike Donald, Nacala, Northern Mozambique and been here since 2000 ! I have thoroughly enjoyed listening to this interview and am well entrenched into knowing more about the Rhodesian history through “Fighting Men of Rhodesia” although only being a kid back then (Born 1971). I now want to read this book ASAP. I guess it’s my identity and that of my children that concerns me as we are now apart from Zimbabwe, not Mozambican and certainly not British but have done enough travelling around the world to realise I belong in Africa. I’s the future of my children that is a bigger concern but I guess the Rhodesian culture and upbringing will see them through…
Mike. You went to Wendyhouse so there’s no hope unless you sent your laaities to Saints 🤣🤣🤣Hope all Lekker. ( my avatar is not me. I’ll Iook you up on FB. Hope all well) This channel is awesome hey
In some of our cases its First and last Rhodesians. My Great Grandmother was First (1895 Pioneer Steyn Trek) and I'm the last in our family (Left after 1980 Independence). Salute Guys. When I see and hear this, I often wonder why, but when I look back and feel like I really want to cry, I realise then it was all worth the try. With sanctions and against communism, we fought the good fight, in sunshine and in rain and with plenty of pain, I say to myself; If I was given another chance, I'd do it all again. A Proud NON RACIST Rhodesian Forever.
small world.. my dear great grandmother (Harriet C) is listed as a member of the Pioneers and Early Settler's Society, which departed Macloutsie for Fort Salisbury in the 1890's. I was raised steeped in Rhodesian folklore, warlore - good and not so good! Forced off our farm near Ruwa destroyed the family. Took decades to 'move on'. Heart still aches. This site is a Godsend
You ask - what was it that brought those different skeins of society together so quickly? Here’s my 5c worth. Having been born in Gatooma, and having pretty much lived in that district until I left high school, I saw how different groups of people melded to make up the ‘middle class’ ( largely white, but not all) there. The district depended on mines and on farming for its being. Most of the aforesaid middle class were from strictly middle class origins overseas or in SA - remember the adage ‘officers go to Kenya, other ranks to Rhodesia’? - so they started out on mines or farms with little sense of superiority, and were prepared to accept any neighbour on merit. Then in town, there were the traders, many of whom were Jewish, or came from India. These people were essential to the wellbeing of the farming community in particular, to whom they extended credit until the crops were in and the cattle sold. They became an integral part of the middle class and were quickly absorbed into that society.
I really enjoyed this conversation as it covered many of the aspects that I've pondered. The point that I hadnt really considered was that Rhodesia hadn't developed a society elite with deep connections to external elites, leaving the country as a bit of an unwanted stepchild in international relations.
"Who lost Zimbabwe...". Great point and helps me realize why even more thinking outside the box should become a subject at school and tertiary institutions. :) Splendid points of view from the both of you.
A superb interview, I learnt a great deal. In respect of his comment about "Kenya for Officers, Rhodesians' for WOs & sgts, (my father used to say the same) however all agreed that Rhodesians were damn fine soldiers and equally fine airmen. BTW I always inform people, when asked from where I come from = Rhodesian (by choice as I was born in East Africa)
Excellent talk on my home country. I was born in Bindura and educated in rhodesia. I always wished that i could emigrate back home. Could not get a residence or work visa, even though i believe this should be my birth right to go home. After the war it seems that the Zimbabwe govt. Denied those people who left during a particular time of Zimbabwe's independance from returning. (Punishment for being a white man who served his country during the bush war) I feels like i have been in exile for over 40 years.
They canceled my citizenship in 2004, 5 years after having moved to Australia. I tried to apply for a new passport and was informed that I was no longer a citizen .....I remain stateless lol
John hi - what about a series of interviews of siblings left behind by the shapers of that era? Could be interesting to see how they lived it and endure it after the fact.
What I don't understand is why I seem to feel nostalgic for a country that I had never been to, and had ceased to exist before I was even born. Perhaps it's partly the meritocracy you speak of, that is now so sadly on the wane in my home country of England.
The defence of Rhodesia and it's inevitable defeat was an important historical marker for the commencement of the devolutionary / downward spiral the Western World entered shortly after!
Joe R - sympathies! You will not lose your country through a liberation war and the world against you - you will lose it through “pinky liberal” political corectness, internal social divide and an over whelming desire to hand out sanctity and charity to all except Brit. Rhodesians were together - the Nation as a whole were all on the same page. The historic fact that “the sun will not set on the British Empire” is coming home to roost with all in sundry coming home and claiming their "colonial right”!
I come from Tanganyika, which of course never had the cultural resonance of Rhodesian society - not even of Kenya, which was very plummy in my early time times around there. and was brought up around the country as my father travelled around with the Colonial civil service. Departing in 1968 to Scotland, he was urgently asked to return as the clerk who had replaced him in his role (drafting complex labour legislation) was a little out of his depth... I returned to Tanzania in 1994 (and patronised the WhenWe Bar in Arusha!) , and spent my second career around the continent, mostly in mining, and found myself near Beitbridge in 2005 at a former DeBeers mine, now resuscitated. As the mine was financed from the Gulf (the owner fancied the idea of owning a diamond mine), the conditions for employees were good, and I was highly impressed at the quality of education among them. However, the rest of the country did not impress; from Beitbridge to Harare, hardly a single field was cultivated, and the cattle were skin and bone. Two of the mine's Directors were the local MP, who treated its facilities as his luncheon club, and the late Rex Nhongo, which didn't impress me at all. On the day when the processes were first started, the very first diamond to be retrieved was found at the very top of a small pile in the final sorting house - a perfect octahedral 8 carats. I know nothing about General Mujuru's activities in the DRC. As the only Briton in the organisation, I was aware of the attentions of some Authority figures, particularly one nicknamed 'Brown', which eventually led to my departure. While in Harare, I would visit the various excellent restaurants still remaining, and near them I would come across second-hand stores; the saddest sight to be seen, of old and clearly treasured - and precious - mementos and goods for sale for next to nothing. I've donated to ZANE ever since. Edit: The strongest characteristic of any Rhodie that I've ever experienced is the capability to Make a Plan. If only the rest of us could be so able.
The triggers of fear of "majority rule" in younger generations were the Mau Mau events in Kenya and then the events in the Congo. There was a movie produced on the Mau Mau war that was shown in Rhodesia in the late 50's. I was very young, probably 7 or 8 and the brutality of the attacks on the farms scared the crap out of me. Looking back there was probably some propaganda mixed in to justify the brutal treatment meted out by the British Army there but never the less there was a great deal of fact in the basis of the movie. I remember vividly the Belgian whites fleeing through Bulawayo with just their personal possessions. The subsequent war and atrocities perpetrated on our farmers further eroded any trust in any future Black governance. I lived in South Africa for 20 years and saw the same patterns evolving there under the ANC and migrated to the UK in 1998. Having lived in the UK for the last 20 years I can now see what was happening during our period and relate that to their position. Britain also experienced a serious transition after WW2. The 2 wars exposed the rift between the upper and working class. The working class did all the heavy lifting through 2 wars and lost many millions of their sons on the battlefields of Europe. They thus affiliated with a Labour Party who they saw as their salvation. That Labour Party was heavily influenced by Marxist ideology. It was only the arrival of Thatcher in the UK and Reagan in the USA that changed the slide in the West at the time. The entry into the EEC and later EU was seen as unifying Europe and Britain into a single economic area so that peace could be sustained. The morphing of the EU into a super state and the integration of former Eastern block states in 2008 changed thinking in the UK. The mass migration of people from Eastern Europe and gradual migration of large numbers of Indo-Pakistan people into the UK has and is challenging the British way of life and they resent it. The result was BREXIT and the push for greater control of migration and the real anxiety of ordinary Brits about "multiculturalism" being forced on them without their consent. In dealings with ordinary Brits I have found them very ignorant of facts about Southern Africa. In general they thought we also had apartheid. When properly informed of the realities they understand our position. Many of the more informed people I have met now agree that Mugabe was a disaster for the country and Ian Smith was correct in his analysis of the situation and that the Brits made a mess of the whole situation. Centre stage is the British media who can only be described as Marxist and have controlled the narrative for decades but are slowly losing their domination of knowledge because of the internet.
Absolutely correct accounting in your story , people who haven't lived or experienced the horrors of the butchery in African history, should not pass hasty judgment. Once he got himself established & comfortable, it didn't take Mugabe long, to unleash his North Korean sponsored 5th Brigade butchers against the blacks of Matabele origin, how many thousands were killed , we will probably never know the true numbers. But of course Britain & the USA, turned a blind to Mugabe's madness. Take care.
Knowledge is power they say, and in the current battle of Britain we need all the Knowledge we can get to retain our British heredity and culture. Keep up the good work.
@@alasdairdavidgray7316 I will have to check out "Uhuru". Never heard of it. I was thinking of the US film "Something of Value" starring Rock Hudson and (I believe) Jane Wyman. Movie was from the novel of the same name. Came out in the late 50s/early 60s. As a kid at the time I had nightmares of Mau Mau with machetes (or pangos) trying to get in my bedroom window at night.
Fascinating. As a Saffer it seems we may be well on our way along the very same course, sad to say. That was really easy to listen to though, in the way that Duncan pieces together the influencing events that make up this history. Thanks Gents
Duncan mentions the Portuguese businessman, Jorge Jardim, who was one of the most important men in Mozambique. Incidentally, Jorge's daughter, Maria, was a parachute instructor and qualified pilot who spent a lot of time in Mozambique's war zones, helping to evacuate wounded troops and carry mail. Here's footage of her parachuting at a display near Beira in 1973. ruclips.net/video/eIr4SNqr4-o/видео.html
Freemasonry was present in Rhodesia from pretty early on - given the strength of Freemasonry in Europe and America, particularly in Britain, and even more particularly in the British intelligence world - what role do you think that these networks, and perhaps even the larger universalist aims of the Freemasonic movement, might have played in Rhodesia's unravelling?
my grandfather on mother's side was a freemason. They lived in Ft Vic (convoy callsign Zulu Bravo?) He was quite a junior mason though, from what I can understand from his freemason's papers, which I have in a box somewhere. He served in WW2, had no interest in politics. They left in 1975
Idk about masons I’m sure that’s possible but I have heard accounts there were British spies in the Rhodesian government. I’m trying to recall the guys name but he was high up in administration and when he died he got some British honor and it seems to point to the fact he would leak stuff to the British government . He was in office in a high status position pre UDI too
This really explains a lot as many mugabe assassination attempts were block by British SAS dudes and some things didn’t make sense cause at one point Nkomo was even captured and he was let go cause Brit’s somehow got the info
From the 1960s 1970s and the 80s the media in the uk, radoi TV and newspapers where are all left wing with left wing views ,the unions at that time were very left wing meaning people in the uk only saw one view point.They were told only one narrative. That is why today to be told the entire story from both view points is important to give a balanced overview. I asked my son where does he fill he is from ,he says he has two homes one in Africa and one in the uk,he feels connected to both. When I look at the warm sun and clear blue sky on a sunny day I always think of my second home Africa,its I my veins.
I love this channel and this particular episode. If I could ask one question of this UDI period, it would be why didn't the Smith Government simply hang both Mugabe and Nkomo when they had them both in custody! They instead released them to be free to lead and wage the Chimurenga in 1972!
It would be wonderful to be a fly on the wall if Duncan (economist) and an informed political philosopher debated the ideological war. The Soviets played a long game, deployed the most brutal elements of Marxism, and have ruined many “tribes”. Like SA today - it is so hard to see the enemy and the decline is only revealed over a broader arc of history and insight. Thank you for this interview. PS. Who DID lose Zimbabwe (great chirp)!
As an alternative reality, I wonder how it would have played out if South Africa did not give in to British pressure to stop supplying petrol and weapons to Rhodesia, withdrawing other military support, this was about the death blow that forced Smith to give in. If Rhodesia and South Africa instead made a mutual defence pact and South Africa kept South West Africa (now Namibia), as well. Taiwan would have remained business partners for electronics etc. Fact is that South Africa held on till 1990 and no more funds were coming from Russia for the terrorists from then on - SA had won the border war. SA had the largest army in Africa at that point and apart from sanctions that SA was used to by then, there was not really anything else the the rest of the world would do. Yes, they kept on with their media campaigns, but that was nothing new either, they had been doing that from SA independence since 1961.
Interesting discussion, I wonder sometimes if the whole reason was to prevent the growth of another potential super power, maybe not just Rhodesia but Southern Africa in general?
Thanks John Where Can I get Duncan Clarke Book Last Rhodesians,True The Rhodesian Culture Is Still On, Rhodesians Were Or Are Still Very Hard Working, Innovative, Resilient Maybe Due To Sanctions Look @ The Present Day Zimbabweans Very Hard Working Innovative Resilient There Are This Is Was All Inherited From The Rhodesians Am Just Enjoying These Truth , Interviews am Also Dying To Have A One on One Conversation With My White Rhodesian Brothers Thanks For The Programmes John The Rhodesian Culture Still Lives
You speak about the sins of the farther, Rhodesia was a child sired by Briton and its people, they were not interested in looking after their own kith and kin afar, that would mean to imply that their loyalty and allegiance to their own on their home ground would be lacking too. Their unwillingness and lack of support for their own has come home to roost, and now they are struggling to hold onto and protect the very thing that made them whom and what they are. I need to steal your expression, It is a few cappuccinos away from the english having to defend and protect all that they are as we did, Not because they hate anybody, but mainly because they love all that they are more,. I will not leave my home because my father and grand father and the souls of all those that are dear to me rest in this land.
During ww 1: "Although it was one of the few belligerents not to have appealed for conscription, Southern Rhodesia contributed more, in proportion to its white population, to the British war effort than any other territory in the United States. Empire, including the United Kingdom. About 5,716 soldiers joined combat units, 1,720 of them as officers, or about 40% of the colony's white men !!!!!!. 2,507 black soldiers fought in the Rhodesian Native Regiment, as did 30 in the Rhodesian Regiment and about 350 in British and South African units. In total, more than 800 Southern Rhodesians of all origins lost their lives during the First World War and many more were injured". Never forget you. ( Wiki source)
Pity the crown that lost it colonies and insisted all it colonies fall upon their swords as well But for those who refused the crown had a dagger for their backs …. A Pitiful behavior & it gained the crown very little… Churchill was the last decent PM & when Churchill went, the rest who followed were welterweights …
Completely talking out my ass, but I don't think I completely agree regarding the foregone conclusion regarding Rhodesia's fate. I could see a fairly likely scenario where an election in the UK or US going a more conservative route would result in Rhodesia being seen as a viable place for the West to resist communism. Along with that, a more reasonable transition to power sharing might have been had with a say.. 20 year transitiotime-line. I believe that would result in effectively Rhodesian identity surviving.
There were many good persons that should have been backed up. See, Y T, "100 years of the United States over throwing government ts", C -Span, compilation, 1990's, about 10 hours.
Born in Wankie and raised in Bulawayo. I’m one of the displaced Rhodesians living in the northern hemisphere now and still Rhodesian, no matter where I live. I am SOOOOOOO proud of my Rhodesian heritage and Rhodesian people, no matter what an ignorant world says about us
Never forget... We were some frenchies on DC3 with weapons for rhodesian people. Friendly and courageous people and a so beautiful country destroyed by war between usa and ussr. Lost paradise. Tears in my heart. Never forget
I lived and worked in Salisbury for a short period and toured around Rhodesia. It is one of the most awesome and exciting country I have visited
I’m English. I love all these videos on this channel. I’m very interested in the story of Rhodesia. I’m disgusted at the part played by the British government in the demise of Rhodesia!
USA, too.
Technically speaking, it was the single tribe who created England, United States, Bolshevik Russia, CCP China who waged the war on Rhodesia's Blancs. They, too, are the same tribe who created marxism in 1848 Anno Domini within City of London.
The United States can't keep their nose out of anything look what they did to South Africa they should fix their own mess in the lower 48😮
I am so thankful for my Rhodesian heritage - there’s no place like home. My late parents felt the same. My father, who fought in the Rhodesian war, just died in 2019 in South Africa but his heart was always in Rhodesia
As a Rhodesian in exile with a further track record in other African countries, most notable Nigeria I must say I agree with Duncan that once the milk is spilt there really is no way to recover to another reality. Yes, there were many events that could have changed the course of history starting at the referendum that led to self rule but what happened, happened and here we are. Some pine for the good old days, others mourn the mistakes. What cannot be denied is that after the second world war, we Rhodesians lived a charmed life in the anachronism that Rhodesia quickly became. I am forever grateful for that charmed existence which certainly benefited me working in many parts of the world. Such a pity that for so many still living there this has become impossible for the vast majority.
This isn't African history. This is white colonial history.
Also spent a few years in Nigeria Elias, Lekki based but travelled up North Niger border and East to Harcourt very often. It's a cracking place once you get your head around it. lol.
What a great chat about the last Rhodesians. Being born in Bulawayo and schooled mainly in Gwelo I can still remember the great Rhodesia I used to live in. Although still missed, am very happy to have fled to South Africa with 3 kids and an old Ford Cortina. South Africa has been very kind to me and my family, and I will be eternally grateful for that. Amazing how your own kind can forsake you due to British politics at the time. Certainly leaves a bad taste. Anyway, thank you Duncan. John and Hannes for your informative and honest session. Well done.
An amazing video. I was born in Southern Rhodesia and still remember the day UDI was declared. My children were born in Southern Rhodesia I always say I come from the lost country due to the fact Rhodesia is not on the map. I now live in Canada as does my eldest son. Two of my children remain in South Africa. Rhodesia was an amazing country and a wonderful place to grow up in. I still have family in Bulawayo Rhodesia the town I was born in. It is the only town which has not had its name changed due to the fact that Bulawayo is an African name. Cecil John Rhodes face on it. I am an accountant by profession and continue to work in Canada.
With trades, literature, the hunting, fishing, farms, and other useful civilized activities, can help areas be habitable.
The wrong person's were backed up.
Just curios. What does your family do that are still in Rhodesia?
Horrible what happened to your country.
My great grandfather was General PJ Liebenberg in the Boer War but I’m Rhodesian through and through.
Thanks for this presentation. I've met a few Rhodesians over the years. Their unique characters stood them out but their nationality was a common thread. None failed to impress.
Another brilliant interview. I had an experience a few years ago which brought home to me how Britain is still sore at us for defining them.
Great talk from 2 very knowledgeable guys, really enjoyed it! That's a book I will be ordering.
I really like this question and answers time on what is to me a great topic which is Rhodesia! I was there from1977 to 1980. I then went to South Africa until 1982. best 4 1/2 years of my life. My best time was in Rhodesia. Thank you and Mr. Duncan Clarke for your time and effort in this production.
Very exciting history. Thank you very much, dear gentlemen!
Best wishes from Russia!
Fascinating stuff guys, look forward to the book. For us that are in our late 40s, early 50's, it's like having a hole in your life from the age of 10. You don't belong anywhere, living in diaspora is freedom but sometimes it can be very lonely in reflection, especially during university and college years. I don't think it will ever go away.
if I can humbly offer a suggestion, allow yourself to 'move on'. Indulging that homesickness, for want of a better word, can be dangerous, take one to dark places..
@@alnonickname570 I certainly don't go looking for it Al, just sometimes when you listen to others talking about their "homes" and are able to still go there and live it, thats when it hits. Normally after a family get together with the in-laws for example. I am a lucky guy, I spent my teens in Canada and the UK, travelled the World with work then semi retired to Australia with my wife. I've been very lucky indeed.
I get similar feelings like this. It was a great privilege to grow up in such an awesome place.
Great to listen to the older guys with their stories.
With you on that Moose, also in Aus, but oft yearn for the old Rhodie days and the freedom we had.
Mike Donald, Nacala, Northern Mozambique and been here since 2000 !
I have thoroughly enjoyed listening to this interview and am well entrenched into knowing more about the Rhodesian history through “Fighting Men of Rhodesia” although only being a kid back then (Born 1971). I now want to read this book ASAP.
I guess it’s my identity and that of my children that concerns me as we are now apart from Zimbabwe, not Mozambican and certainly not British but have done enough travelling around the world to realise I belong in Africa. I’s the future of my children that is a bigger concern but I guess the Rhodesian culture and upbringing will see them through…
Mike. You went to Wendyhouse so there’s no hope unless you sent your laaities to Saints 🤣🤣🤣Hope all Lekker. ( my avatar is not me. I’ll Iook you up on FB. Hope all well) This channel is awesome hey
In some of our cases its First and last Rhodesians. My Great Grandmother was First (1895 Pioneer Steyn Trek) and I'm the last in our family (Left after 1980 Independence). Salute Guys.
When I see and hear this, I often wonder why, but when I look back and feel like I really want to cry, I realise then it was all worth the try. With sanctions and against communism, we fought the good fight, in sunshine and in rain and with plenty of pain, I say to myself; If I was given another chance, I'd do it all again. A Proud NON RACIST Rhodesian Forever.
small world.. my dear great grandmother (Harriet C) is listed as a member of the Pioneers and Early Settler's Society, which departed Macloutsie for Fort Salisbury in the 1890's. I was raised steeped in Rhodesian folklore, warlore - good and not so good! Forced off our farm near Ruwa destroyed the family. Took decades to 'move on'. Heart still aches. This site is a Godsend
European history
You ask - what was it that brought those different skeins of society together so quickly?
Here’s my 5c worth. Having been born in Gatooma, and having pretty much lived in that district until I left high school, I saw how different groups of people melded to make up the ‘middle class’ ( largely white, but not all) there. The district depended on mines and on farming for its being. Most of the aforesaid middle class were from strictly middle class origins overseas or in SA - remember the adage ‘officers go to Kenya, other ranks to Rhodesia’? - so they started out on mines or farms with little sense of superiority, and were prepared to accept any neighbour on merit.
Then in town, there were the traders, many of whom were Jewish, or came from India. These people were essential to the wellbeing of the farming community in particular, to whom they extended credit until the crops were in and the cattle sold.
They became an integral part of the middle class and were quickly absorbed into that society.
I really enjoyed this conversation as it covered many of the aspects that I've pondered. The point that I hadnt really considered was that Rhodesia hadn't developed a society elite with deep connections to external elites, leaving the country as a bit of an unwanted stepchild in international relations.
Thank you Hannes for this interview. I am looking forward to owning both these books. All the best. Thank you also to Duncan Clarke for these books.
"Who lost Zimbabwe...". Great point and helps me realize why even more thinking outside the box should become a subject at school and tertiary institutions. :) Splendid points of view from the both of you.
A superb interview, I learnt a great deal.
In respect of his comment about "Kenya for Officers, Rhodesians' for WOs & sgts, (my father used to say the same) however all agreed that Rhodesians were damn fine soldiers and equally fine airmen.
BTW I always inform people, when asked from where I come from = Rhodesian (by choice as I was born in East Africa)
Great comments
Were you born in Mozambique?
@@glendodds3824
Who are you asking?
Excellent talk on my home country. I was born in Bindura and educated in rhodesia. I always wished that i could emigrate back home. Could not get a residence or work visa, even though i believe this should be my birth right to go home. After the war it seems that the Zimbabwe govt. Denied those people who left during a particular time of Zimbabwe's independance from returning. (Punishment for being a white man who served his country during the bush war) I feels like i have been in exile for over 40 years.
They canceled my citizenship in 2004, 5 years after having moved to Australia. I tried to apply for a new passport and was informed that I was no longer a citizen .....I remain stateless lol
John hi - what about a series of interviews of siblings left behind by the shapers of that era? Could be interesting to see how they lived it and endure it after the fact.
OK Rich, good idea
What a beautiful interview. Part of our history.
What I don't understand is why I seem to feel nostalgic for a country that I had never been to, and had ceased to exist before I was even born. Perhaps it's partly the meritocracy you speak of, that is now so sadly on the wane in my home country of England.
The defence of Rhodesia and it's inevitable defeat was an important historical marker for the commencement of the devolutionary / downward spiral the Western World entered shortly after!
Joe R - sympathies! You will not lose your country through a liberation war and the world against you - you will lose it through “pinky liberal” political corectness, internal social divide and an over whelming desire to hand out sanctity and charity to all except Brit. Rhodesians were together - the Nation as a whole were all on the same page. The historic fact that “the sun will not set on the British Empire” is coming home to roost with all in sundry coming home and claiming their "colonial right”!
I come from Tanganyika, which of course never had the cultural resonance of Rhodesian society - not even of Kenya, which was very plummy in my early time times around there. and was brought up around the country as my father travelled around with the Colonial civil service. Departing in 1968 to Scotland, he was urgently asked to return as the clerk who had replaced him in his role (drafting complex labour legislation) was a little out of his depth...
I returned to Tanzania in 1994 (and patronised the WhenWe Bar in Arusha!) , and spent my second career around the continent, mostly in mining, and found myself near Beitbridge in 2005 at a former DeBeers mine, now resuscitated. As the mine was financed from the Gulf (the owner fancied the idea of owning a diamond mine), the conditions for employees were good, and I was highly impressed at the quality of education among them. However, the rest of the country did not impress; from Beitbridge to Harare, hardly a single field was cultivated, and the cattle were skin and bone. Two of the mine's Directors were the local MP, who treated its facilities as his luncheon club, and the late Rex Nhongo, which didn't impress me at all. On the day when the processes were first started, the very first diamond to be retrieved was found at the very top of a small pile in the final sorting house - a perfect octahedral 8 carats. I know nothing about General Mujuru's activities in the DRC.
As the only Briton in the organisation, I was aware of the attentions of some Authority figures, particularly one nicknamed 'Brown', which eventually led to my departure.
While in Harare, I would visit the various excellent restaurants still remaining, and near them I would come across second-hand stores; the saddest sight to be seen, of old and clearly treasured - and precious - mementos and goods for sale for next to nothing. I've donated to ZANE ever since.
Edit: The strongest characteristic of any Rhodie that I've ever experienced is the capability to Make a Plan. If only the rest of us could be so able.
Amazing stories 👏 from Kent England
The triggers of fear of "majority rule" in younger generations were the Mau Mau events in Kenya and then the events in the Congo. There was a movie produced on the Mau Mau war that was shown in Rhodesia in the late 50's. I was very young, probably 7 or 8 and the brutality of the attacks on the farms scared the crap out of me. Looking back there was probably some propaganda mixed in to justify the brutal treatment meted out by the British Army there but never the less there was a great deal of fact in the basis of the movie.
I remember vividly the Belgian whites fleeing through Bulawayo with just their personal possessions. The subsequent war and atrocities perpetrated on our farmers further eroded any trust in any future Black governance.
I lived in South Africa for 20 years and saw the same patterns evolving there under the ANC and migrated to the UK in 1998. Having lived in the UK for the last 20 years I can now see what was happening during our period and relate that to their position. Britain also experienced a serious transition after WW2. The 2 wars exposed the rift between the upper and working class. The working class did all the heavy lifting through 2 wars and lost many millions of their sons on the battlefields of Europe. They thus affiliated with a Labour Party who they saw as their salvation. That Labour Party was heavily influenced by Marxist ideology. It was only the arrival of Thatcher in the UK and Reagan in the USA that changed the slide in the West at the time. The entry into the EEC and later EU was seen as unifying Europe and Britain into a single economic area so that peace could be sustained. The morphing of the EU into a super state and the integration of former Eastern block states in 2008 changed thinking in the UK. The mass migration of people from Eastern Europe and gradual migration of large numbers of Indo-Pakistan people into the UK has and is challenging the British way of life and they resent it. The result was BREXIT and the push for greater control of migration and the real anxiety of ordinary Brits about "multiculturalism" being forced on them without their consent.
In dealings with ordinary Brits I have found them very ignorant of facts about Southern Africa. In general they thought we also had apartheid. When properly informed of the realities they understand our position. Many of the more informed people I have met now agree that Mugabe was a disaster for the country and Ian Smith was correct in his analysis of the situation and that the Brits made a mess of the whole situation. Centre stage is the British media who can only be described as Marxist and have controlled the narrative for decades but are slowly losing their domination of knowledge because of the internet.
Absolutely correct accounting in your story , people who haven't lived or experienced the horrors of the butchery in African history, should not pass hasty judgment.
Once he got himself established & comfortable, it didn't take Mugabe long, to unleash his North Korean sponsored 5th Brigade butchers against the blacks of Matabele origin, how many thousands were killed , we will probably never know the true numbers.
But of course Britain & the USA, turned a blind to Mugabe's madness.
Take care.
Knowledge is power they say, and in the current battle of Britain we need all the Knowledge we can get to retain our British heredity and culture. Keep up the good work.
I think the film was “Uhuru”
@@alasdairdavidgray7316 I will have to check out "Uhuru". Never heard of it. I was thinking of the US film "Something of Value" starring Rock Hudson and (I believe) Jane Wyman. Movie was from the novel of the same name. Came out in the late 50s/early 60s. As a kid at the time I had nightmares of Mau Mau with machetes (or pangos) trying to get in my bedroom window at night.
@@gill5453 Uhuru is the word for freedom, and is also the summit of Kilimanjaro.
Fascinating. As a Saffer it seems we may be well on our way along the very same course, sad to say.
That was really easy to listen to though, in the way that Duncan pieces together the influencing events that make up this history.
Thanks Gents
Glad you enjoyed it
Duncan mentions the Portuguese businessman, Jorge Jardim, who was one of the most important men in Mozambique. Incidentally, Jorge's daughter, Maria, was a parachute instructor and qualified pilot who spent a lot of time in Mozambique's war zones, helping to evacuate wounded troops and carry mail. Here's footage of her parachuting at a display near Beira in 1973. ruclips.net/video/eIr4SNqr4-o/видео.html
Freemasonry was present in Rhodesia from pretty early on - given the strength of Freemasonry in Europe and America, particularly in Britain, and even more particularly in the British intelligence world - what role do you think that these networks, and perhaps even the larger universalist aims of the Freemasonic movement, might have played in Rhodesia's unravelling?
Freemasons always end up being victims of their own masters.
my grandfather on mother's side was a freemason. They lived in Ft Vic (convoy callsign Zulu Bravo?) He was quite a junior mason though, from what I can understand from his freemason's papers, which I have in a box somewhere. He served in WW2, had no interest in politics. They left in 1975
Idk about masons I’m sure that’s possible but I have heard accounts there were British spies in the Rhodesian government. I’m trying to recall the guys name but he was high up in administration and when he died he got some British honor and it seems to point to the fact he would leak stuff to the British government . He was in office in a high status position pre UDI too
This really explains a lot as many mugabe assassination attempts were block by British SAS dudes and some things didn’t make sense cause at one point Nkomo was even captured and he was let go cause Brit’s somehow got the info
From the 1960s 1970s and the 80s the media in the uk, radoi TV and newspapers where are all left wing with left wing views ,the unions at that time were very left wing meaning people in the uk only saw one view point.They were told only one narrative. That is why today to be told the entire story from both view points is important to give a balanced overview. I asked my son where does he fill he is from ,he says he has two homes one in Africa and one in the uk,he feels connected to both. When I look at the warm sun and clear blue sky on a sunny day I always think of my second home Africa,its I my veins.
Fantastic chat. Very informed articulate explanation of our DNA. We a robust , hardy , versatile misunderstood animal.
I call myself the last Rhodesian :)
great story
Brilliant, thank you :0)))
You're very welcome!
I love this channel and this particular episode. If I could ask one question of this UDI period, it would be why didn't the Smith Government simply hang both Mugabe and Nkomo when they had them both in custody! They instead released them to be free to lead and wage the Chimurenga in 1972!
It would be wonderful to be a fly on the wall if Duncan (economist) and an informed political philosopher debated the ideological war. The Soviets played a long game, deployed the most brutal elements of Marxism, and have ruined many “tribes”. Like SA today - it is so hard to see the enemy and the decline is only revealed over a broader arc of history and insight. Thank you for this interview.
PS. Who DID lose Zimbabwe (great chirp)!
As an alternative reality, I wonder how it would have played out if South Africa did not give in to British pressure to stop supplying petrol and weapons to Rhodesia, withdrawing other military support, this was about the death blow that forced Smith to give in. If Rhodesia and South Africa instead made a mutual defence pact and South Africa kept South West Africa (now Namibia), as well. Taiwan would have remained business partners for electronics etc. Fact is that South Africa held on till 1990 and no more funds were coming from Russia for the terrorists from then on - SA had won the border war. SA had the largest army in Africa at that point and apart from sanctions that SA was used to by then, there was not really anything else the the rest of the world would do. Yes, they kept on with their media campaigns, but that was nothing new either, they had been doing that from SA independence since 1961.
Not just British, Mr Kissenger, Andrew Young & POTUS Jimmy Carter..added even greater pressure.
Interesting discussion, I wonder sometimes if the whole reason was to prevent the growth of another potential super power, maybe not just Rhodesia but Southern Africa in general?
Thanks John Where Can I get Duncan Clarke Book Last Rhodesians,True The Rhodesian Culture Is Still On, Rhodesians Were Or Are Still Very Hard Working, Innovative, Resilient Maybe Due To Sanctions
Look @ The Present Day Zimbabweans Very Hard Working Innovative Resilient There Are This Is Was All Inherited From The Rhodesians
Am Just Enjoying These Truth , Interviews am Also Dying To Have A One on One Conversation With My White Rhodesian Brothers
Thanks For The Programmes John
The Rhodesian Culture Still Lives
a.co/d/iP3zbNi
You speak about the sins of the farther,
Rhodesia was a child sired by Briton and its people, they were not interested in looking after their own kith and kin afar, that would mean to imply that their loyalty and allegiance to their own on their home ground would be lacking too.
Their unwillingness and lack of support for their own has come home to roost, and now they are struggling to hold onto and protect the very thing that made them whom and what they are. I need to steal your expression, It is a few cappuccinos away from the english having to defend and protect all that they are as we did, Not because they hate anybody, but mainly because they love all that they are more,. I will not leave my home because my father and grand father and the souls of all those that are dear to me rest in this land.
Well said
Your so right mate. Nearly cried.
Brilliant comment, I've been thinking the same recently.
During ww 1: "Although it was one of the few belligerents not to have appealed for conscription, Southern Rhodesia contributed more, in proportion to its white population, to the British war effort than any other territory in the United States. Empire, including the United Kingdom. About 5,716 soldiers joined combat units, 1,720 of them as officers, or about 40% of the colony's white men !!!!!!. 2,507 black soldiers fought in the Rhodesian Native Regiment, as did 30 in the Rhodesian Regiment and about 350 in British and South African units. In total, more than 800 Southern Rhodesians of all origins lost their lives during the First World War and many more were injured". Never forget you. ( Wiki source)
Well done Margolis !!
Treasured memories
Pity the crown that lost it colonies and insisted all it colonies fall upon their swords as well But for those who refused the crown had a dagger for their backs …. A Pitiful behavior & it gained the crown very little… Churchill was the last decent PM & when Churchill went, the rest who followed were welterweights …
If the UK had supported Smith we would still have rhodesia and no one would have heard of mugabe...
Came in the mail the other day
Rhodesians are ate caste above the nobles
Completely talking out my ass, but I don't think I completely agree regarding the foregone conclusion regarding Rhodesia's fate. I could see a fairly likely scenario where an election in the UK or US going a more conservative route would result in Rhodesia being seen as a viable place for the West to resist communism. Along with that, a more reasonable transition to power sharing might have been had with a say.. 20 year transitiotime-line. I believe that would result in effectively Rhodesian identity surviving.
There were many good persons that should have been backed up. See, Y T, "100 years of the United States over throwing government ts", C -Span, compilation, 1990's, about 10 hours.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duncan_Fletcher