The main charge against Socrates was not atheism, it was the corruption of the youth. Atheism was among the charges, but Socrates himself claims to believe in the very Gods he was accused of not believing.
I’m actually going to do a video on what Socrates believed! It’s a bit more complicated than either of us is making it out to be. Thanks for watching and commenting.
Exactly! Atheism was like an effort to a concrete example of how he was corrupting the youth (by asking uncomfortable questions and making everybody feel like an ass). The crime is specifically "empiety", so to behave in an anti-culturally sanctioned way. Offense to the gods is a stand-in for offense to the people's mores
A theory I've heard, which I rather like, is that it seems *most learned people* believed more in their gods as the things they governed than the myths themselves. That the stories they told were invented by humans to teach and to personify the gods, but those stories were nonetheless a key part of worshiping them, and not worshiping them *would* have consequences. By worshiping Zeus you requested that the very concept of rain and storm grace your city with rain. A little like funky things people do to make their favorite sports team win, but far more widespread, complex and literal.
this certainly seemed to be the Roman idea, but that came quite a bit after Socrates. I do not know if it was the same in Greece, but I imagine it was (or perhaps even more material by that time). you can get a true sense of this type of religious belief from reading Ovid's more 'casual' tone works on Love where he will refer to Cupid/Venus/Bacchus/Apollo etc as being representations of things and feelings. for instance a drunkard may be an acolyte of Bacchus, rather than 'just' a drunkard (unable to regulate his 'love' for Bacchus). in this way the plethora offered by the pantheon affords one much creative liberty, which Ovid utilizes brilliantly. Obviously religion is a fluid thing which shifts not only time to time but person to person, so we can never truly state the 'truth' of an era's religious belief. that said, I dont think its correct to simplify Socrates as being prosecuted for 'atheism' but thats another video.
The question kinda expects that the ancient greeks were thinking that you could go to olympus and see zeus on a throne or something. But they knew he wasn't actually, physically there, because there are temples there... to perform ritual. The conceptualization was something far more mysterious than a Marvel Movies level of concept. The questions also takes athens as the main perspective, but the myths of athens are not the myths or arcadia, esparta or olympia. And the very idea that the myths were different shows that consensus on myth was not fundamental.
Exactly, they also believed that the myths were something of another time/age, like looking to the horizon and not knowing that lies beyond. That realm.
@Msquikly, the actual Mt. Olympus and its throne isn't in Greece but in the archon-riddled archtic (arctic). Every country in the world is in agreement of its no-fly zone. The heathen deities are too cowardly to be seen by the public like back when.
I’m the bride of Christ future cleopatra dictator and second coming of Christ and I have lightning powers. One night when I was sleep I was half awake similar to a deep meditation and I was right under a vent and the rhythm of the lightning was in sync with my throbbing head. I was stressed around that time but my head was throbbing to the rhythm of lightning while I was sleep.
@@no-np8dw lol I know right exactly. I just know I’ll have political power and enough power for the mob and gangs to bow down. I think that’s the point of having it. Probably for democrat leaders too since im a conservative if u know what I mean. I think god was giving me a sample of what a real god on earth does. It’s biblical prophecy that I’ll be revealed. Plus there’s more but don’t wanna get off subject. Lately I’ve been researching the worship of Zeus.
I'm glad you liked it! I am really enjoying your series on the Presocratics as well. I really like the idea that Diagoras might have written the Derveni Papyrus, it gives him a little more context than just the "atheism guy." I think more can be made (than usually is) of the atmosphere at Athens in late 5th which caused Socrates to drink the Hemlock. It wasn't just a one off.
Recently I've seen a class here in RUclips where Socrates' condemnation was rather seen in light of the context of recent defeat in the war against Sparta and the tense political climate in Athens after the rule of the thirty tyrants, where some of Socrates' former students contributed, hence the accusation of corrupting the youth. It's an interesting perspective, I think.
The war definitely was a factor. When a community is under immense stress it is very common for reactionary or conservative ideals to seem extra important and worth defending. Excellent point.
@@Keimelia It's good to take the social context into account. Intellectual history does not take place in a vacuum, divorced from everyday life. Looking at the US, the second world war was followed by the Eisenhower-era proscriptions of communism and homosexuality, and the addition of "under God" to the pledge of allegiance first enforced during the war.
Plato may have been insincere. Socrates was a conservative, as Plato was. The attack against Socrates was intended to be against the oligarchic trends.
@@alangivre2474 well, I haven't read much plato, but from the Republic, there isn't much indication that Socrates is being portrayed as conservative, him finding reason to contradict almost every aspect of his society. All in all, if Plato was attempting to parody socrates, it was with such subtlety that it fooled much of western society for hundreds of years, while never really presenting any explicit counterpoint to socrates' views in the story which are usually reasonable, or at least comprehensible. Is there any greek author, or contemporary of his, that showed such a subtly ironical style? That's why I find that hypothesis implausible.
I always thought their beliefs were very loose, like they would refer to a certain god as if they were a real person but not really mean it per se. I imagine it was very hard to take the whole "the gods live on Mount Olympus" thing seriously when Mount Olympus is an actual, physical place people could just go and see for themselves
@@disguisedcentennial835 Mount Olympus is a physical place that is reachable, however hard it may or may not be to get to, the greeks even built the Temple of Zeus there, contrast, to say, the christians, who say their god is in Heaven, which is technically another plane of existence entirely. my point was that, by saying their pantheon lived in a tangible place, quite a lot of the "mystique" and wonder was nonexistent
@@40088922 as a counter point, if the greeks took their belief seriously, then giving the gods a tangible home on earth would only serve to increase their zeal. I mean, imagine walking on a spot that you truly thought was home to your gods, I could imagine it feeling empowering and mystical, especially given the weather phenomena at higher altitudes. Not saying this is the case but it makes for an interesting thought considering the allegorical means of thinking that the video highlights
There may have been Greeks that believed in this, but then there's also Platonists like I who believe the Gods exist beyond the world. Socrates is one of our teachers that we Follow. Sure the Gods can bring down their forms into our world and communicate, but they aren't *literal* physical beings like how some people believe.
This was very fascinating especially as I have been wondering about this myself. Great video keep up the good work cant believe you do not have more subscribers :)
Seems one could draw many parallels in the way Socrates and his contemporaries interpreted the Iliad to the way Christian text today is often interpreted in a narrative rather than literal fashion in light of scientific discoveries. Great video, surprised you don't have more views
@@Testimony_Of_JTF as someone who studies semitics and it's histories, yes. They took a lot of it literally. Since Christians and jews were contemporaries to Greeks and Roman's, I'd have to assume they also took their stories pretty literally
This analysis needs political and sociological insight to go deeper. Did the rich and powerful have the same beliefs as the poor? How many could read and spend time on philosophical musings? How much did you care about earthly and trascendent matters when war, famine and disease were totally different? How much vested interest did kings and oligarchs have in using myth as a means of social control? And so on
I am a Hellenic pagan in STEM. I don't think my religion affects my work, though there may be idiots which do let religion govern their work. I don't think being a pagan is exclusive with sensibly engaging in scientific reason.
Also- Paganism and science do conflict. Paganism is pure fantasy, fiction writing. None of that is real or can be proven real. Saying "Well it's not meant to be taken literally" is just cope for being wrong and knowning it
I’d be interested in tracking down the Philodemus quote included around 1:39, especially in the original Greek. Unfortunately, I was unable to find it using the reference “F 738 Most and Laks, Philodemus, On Piety” included in the video. Would it be possible to include a link to the source, or perhaps even a pasted version of the original?
Whoops my citation is wrong! Diagoras' fragments are in Campbell's Lyric Poets IV Loeb (among other places) Here is a link: www.amazon.com/Greek-Lyric-Bacchylides-Corinna-Classical/dp/0674995082/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3OXGQ25C7JTHW&keywords=Campbell+Lyric+IV&qid=1670165438&s=books&sprefix=campbell+lyric+iv%2Cstripbooks%2C74&sr=1-1 Sorry I made a mistake I thought they were in Most and Laks' Presocratics in the same series.
Yes because for them they were not myths, they were their religion! Nowadays we know that there is no Zeus living in a palace at the top of Mount Olympus… For us today is mythology, for these people is was religion.
@@TempleofBrendaSong I have felt God at times. That could simply be a placebo or there really is a God. I'm not religious but don't deny any possibility of super natural beings existing and affecting our lifes My point was just that ALL people of ALL faiths "feel" their deities. My mom cries out loud when she prays. Would that mean Jesus Christ really is our Lord and saviour?
@@Testimony_Of_JTF Do you really believe or do you say that you believe so that your parents dont feel threatened? But once theyre gone do you still believe??
@@Keimelia I did not get simple answers nor did I get any complex ones. I just got some context around this topic. I think that the title of this video creates some expectations that are sadly not matched by the actual content. A clickbait of some sorts..
All the ancient people were...it just ancient Greeks and Romans were the ones who were writing everything down. What they thought, their troubles, their philosophical debates. Literally everything, so we can know better how they were. Celts, Germans, Thracians, Illyrians didn't even have a proper writing system, Egyptians with their hierarchical clergy would write down more about their stuff, Persians and Indians were good at writing down and they were also extremely pious and religious... So what is the unique in Greek and Romans? That they were a culture that despite their own religious society, produced thousands of scientists and a whole bunch of micro cultures exploring reality, the material world as it is, atheism, they created the first philosophical movement to ask why about anything you see around you and demand to explore the world with realism rather with mythology.
@@vanmars5718 there was no distinction between religion, philosophy and science for the greeks. They couldve debated on the naming, which is reflected in that vid, but it was an undivided field
@@hoobsug That's not absolutely right. Although the unseen world an immensely important role, still someone can argue about each individual case or philosophical movement. Also, the time range is a different thing that we have to take into consideration. The time of Solon or Socrates is centuries before the great scientists of Alexandria and all the between. Still my point was different, I've although their society was also religious as any other society they did produced a culture that demanded to ask questions and explore the material world, no matter if your results will come out as atheistic. For many Greek philosophers your argument and where you base your conclusions was extremely important and influential even if they didn't side or share your views.
You seem to have chosen a time when the Greek Pantheon were being used as literary characters (as we know from extant plays and epics). Actual Greek culture came from a much wider time span during which personifications of nature became codified.
This sheds some light on why the Greeks and Romans were antithetical to early Christianity, and even called them "atheists". When Paul visited Athens, he noticed an altar that said, "to an unknown god" and began preaching about Christ, and a lot of what he said must have sounded very similar to the monotheistic musings of the Presocratics.
The first video from this channel I have watched. It appeared in my RUclips feed. Probably because I have been watching the Religion for Breakfast and Let's Talk Religion channels. This channel looks good and I hope it does well. But did or didn't the Ancient Greeks of classical times believe in their myths?
@@Keimelia Actually this isn't the first time I've come across this question. I read a book by Richard Buxton of the university of Bristol on this long time ago.
Just to add in some thinking, I believe Joseph Campbell's. Monomyth detection, 'The Hero of a thousand faces' is a common template that frames Greek myth, Hinduism, Judaism, Roman myth and more. We stand too close to see what is there. It's tricky but these myths are built on that template. First emerged in Babylonian creation myth, The Enuma Elish in a fun form. They play out in the human psyche. IMHO. -edited to add- At the very least, the authors of the stories knew they were fake.
Plutarch - who was not only a historian but also a religious thinker and Apollo's priest - wrote a whole book about the problem of the lack of imminent divine punishment of sins - 5 centuries after Diagoras of Melos. (I read that book.) And this problem seems to be so strong in the Greek religious world that it is even mentioned in the New Testament. Apostle Saint Paul - a contemporary to Plutarch - was a castway on the Maltese shores. And when a snake sneaked onto his arm bystanders thought that "this man is a criminal whose divine punishment just arrived". But he survived without trouble and then some thought he himself could be divine.
The common people of ancient Hellas generally believed in their gods, but for the educated aristocracy, it was usually just a social convention to be observed for practical purposes. The surviving Hellenic texts we have are riddled with references to a capitalized Theos or Theikos (the Divine) in obvious acknowledgement that some power above Zeus and the other gods was the true originating and sustaining power of the Cosmos.
In a human way is completely makes since why such concepts of agnostic/atheistic ideas would come during such a time period. Even today the loss of faith can be attributed to human nature itself, when you see some atrocity going punished in fact it's often times rewarded depending on what it is or when you see somebody who doesn't deserve what they have gain far more than you do only for you to get an even shorter end of the stick often times can breed the ideas of losing faith in something. My personal belief and the spirituality is simply that it's not there entirely for our own benefit and gain but it's there to help us and that the Gods (or god I'm not ignoring him either) can only do so much and maybe they have their own way of doing things that are so far beyond our comprehension that how on Earth could we as people even judge their actions? The simple answer is we can't, I can't just simply ask God as to why is there terrible things in the world and why he let it happen, I will never know that answer and I probably don't even have the rights to that answer either.
Absolutely not true whatsoever I'm and atheist. I know many atheists. It's NOTHING to do with "not getting what we deserve" or because we suffered some tragedy. That is the worst load of bull. If anything, nearly every atheist out there has a better life than the religious!
Eh, all religions are obvious fakes, totally human made. The Greek gods were among the most obvious because they're humans , but made to be immortal, bigger, stronger and more powerful versions of real humans. From their writings you can deduce, that the Greeks (and the Romans for that matter) as soon as they became more sophisticated and cosmopolitan and saw other versions of the gods, they made their own conclusions, at least some of the most well educated among them. After all it is really easy to realize of the falsehood of all Religions, once you know what you're looking for. As Montesquieu said "if Triangles had gods they would make them with three sides" 😆
@@danielcrafter9349 bruh you can't just state something without evidence like there is no way telling if a certain group of people live better than others, it's like me saying " it's obvious that pineapple in pizza is better than anything" or "people that like black are more depressed than people that like white" , also he said one of the many reasons as to why people doubt the existence of God not the main reason as to why some people are atheist
In my opinion the belief in the irrational doesn’t suit the believer, but it serves as an indicator to Power that the masses are in line with the politics of the nation. Whenever, a person is identified and labeled as an atheist serves as an indicator that the individual is disconnected and free-thinking. This individual now posses a threat to the established order desired by the Empire/Nation. In other words irrationality is a feature when it comes to religion.
You are aware Socrates, your so called free-thinker, literally wanted the myths to be modified so that they would be used as propaganda and, instead of telling the truth, telling whatever was needed to educate children according to his ideas. The people who sentenced him were literally preserving the integrity of the myths so they wouldn't be used for manipulation. Also, our religion is not irrational in the least
@@alejandror.planas9802 Indeed Socrates/Plato’s thoughts were rogue. The government used its powers in a failed attempt to sway Socrates, but was forced to feed him hemlock instead, even at his advanced age. The government feared corruption of the youth via strange Gods.
@@solomonessix6909 The government feared a crazy man attempting to manipulate children by wilfully lying to them with political aims. I would also be concerned of someone like him tbh.
You seem to imply that atheists are free from irrationality and always "free thinking", when you look at atheism today, it's almost as dogmatic as the religions they criticize.
So the ancient Greeks gradually became more skeptical about their deities, and then began to interpret their stories more figuratively, as allegories, rather than as literal facts. We are seeing the same today with regards to the Bible.
I'm not sure if my beliefs. But I know that my Gods have helped me psychologically, to improve myself, first my mind, and then the rest. With my mind occupied by the company of a God being, gives me strength and courage.. That's why Gods were thought out after all. Each God is like an Imaginary friend. And in the future people took it wayy too seriously, whoever created you won't make you suffer for actions that you did and they didn't like, I believe it does not work that way. I'd be happy to meet your Gods.
They absolutely believed in them for a good while, especially when the gods were present at physical locations, the fallen angels absolutely existed and just because you weren't there doesn't mean they weren't, actually you have no idea what existed back through time although you will demand that you know everything.
Socrates wasn’t accused so much of atheism as “impiety”. Socrates WAS very religious though, and it influenced much of his philosophy. Even His last words were about Asklepios- the Greek god of medicine and healing
Yes, they did believe in it because in the story they had direct contact with the supernatural. Sauron and his wraiths were very real and elves like Galadriel actually lived in the Undying Lands in the past and met real gods. It's not like in the real world where cultures have different beliefs but cannot actually interact with the entities they believe in. In Tolkien's world the divine and the supernatural are very real and often interact with the physical world. People don't have to blindly believe in Sauron (who's an angel/demi god), they can actually see him Bilbo's oldest friend, Gandalf was already an "old man" when he was a kid and was his grandfather's old friend. Gandalf then proceeds to be in Bilbo's 111th birthday. Of course something supernatural is up in Middle Earth 😆
@@christianrogers4980 and Elrond's father became a star, sure, but what about the music of the Ainur? no one was around for that, or even for the pillars of light, before the trees, etc.
@@phoule76 of course there were witnesses. Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast and Sauron were there. The maiar were created before the music that created the universe. They witnessed it all
@@christianrogers4980 I guess it's said that they were, there, under different names, but none of them claim to have been there; therein lies the "myth" argument.
Zeus/Jupiter is just another iteration of the indo-European sky god deus-pater. It’s Ancient worship, so it wasn’t like a random greek came up the name the god and term far predates greek culture.
And perhaps there is some *_truth_* behind many (most? all?) of those ancient legends. For instance, the story of Metis, Zeus and Athena may be metaphor for Plato's Atlantis. Now that we have scientific evidence from 3 different disciplines for a massive, world-changing event at the same time as the destruction of Plato's lost island empire, and at the same time that two different mtDNA haplogroup "X" peoples were separated, we have to realize that logical fallacies of the past have never served us very well. We are left with the humbling attitude: *_"I don't know!"_* REFERENCES: *_Mission: Atlantis_* (hardcover, paperback, ebook) *_Forbidden Archaeology_* by Michael Cremo *_Dumb Genius: How intelligence is sometimes its own worst enemy_* (hardcover, paperback, ebook)
some of these videos covering the video titles are questions I’ve wondered before, BUT i thought they were slightly bad and weak questions to ask the internet. …
I don't need a 7 minute video to answer this question. I don't think I can find any group or culture in all of written history that didn't believe in some sort make-believe. Why should we expect it might have been different in ancient greece? people today believe all kinds of weird stuff. astrology, ghosts, cryptids, urban legends, birds, flat earth, that god listens to their prayers, that voting will make a difference ect. I'm sure each of us, you and me and everyone, all believe in at least one lie whether they heard it from someone else or they simply convinced themselves.
I think maybe they thought of the Gods omnipresence like Christianity did. With God always being there, if you go to a church the people will say “You are in the house of God,” referring to God being there in Spirit. The Christian myths being interpreted with science can also be used as a form to understand what happened with the Greeks. People are moving away from traditional religion with every new scientific insight, others are using religion to reveal philosophy, and the way religious rules were forms of ancient science, Jews not eating pork could have been a form of preventing people from being infected by parasites, with death being the punishment of violating this law. That’s a rough way of possibly understanding the way the ancients believing in religion, they were people with their own sciences the same as you and me, only difference being the technologies available at the time.
From the sheer amount of effort put into the temples and rituals, It makes sense that most believed in their existence. I assume the only reason people no longer believe in these myths is that they were supplanted by the Abrahamic religions. Maybe in a few thousand years it’ll happen again, and future people will ask if those in our time really believed in Jesus and Muhammad. Though there should be a lot more surviving information to make that easier for them to answer.
When you see a set of myths such as the Greeks, Romans, Egyptian, Norse etc etc what you're really seeing is the remnants of a ancient mystery school. That being said there were initiates who knew the symbolic meaning behind the myths and knew they were allegorical in nature and you had the regular people who like christians today believed the myths were actual events.
*Superstition is a fatal weakness* like an addiction to alcohol. No one has a right to alcoholism or superstition. It's a flaw that killed Socrates for inspiring the youth to question potentially corrupt and inept authority. That same authority killed Socrates because they did not have the wisdom to debate him on his critical ideas.
No. Think bait and switch. If a culture wished to ‘move in’ on an aspect of a society, or society, leaving myth, fiction, renders specific condition: there is nothing to ‘move in’ on. Dreams that were shattered may not have mattered, take another point of view…
Socrates seemed to be very spiritual and had a lot of discourse on the soul and the spirit, or sub conscious. He taught youth to find reason within themselves, rather than follow a cacophony of chaotic Gods, some good and some mischievous. He understood Olympus as a metaphor, not necessarily as a lie, but something closer to Buddhism where Gods were aspects of human psyche and Prometheus had bestowed knowledge, so turn inward to your reason and climb the mountain of wisdom. Dude was a psychological preacher, the State didn't like that he had reinforced aspects of reason that might criticize their society. I don't think Socrates gave a shit about temple sacrifices, but focused on the actual tenets of the religion.
I think it's funny to name Athenian religious practices strange as a big chunk of the population belives that a piece of bread turns into the literal body of their saviour which they consume....
Well I suppose they believed, in the same way most practitioners of mainstream Christianity do. There’s a common core, but there are also tons of nuances, stories some believe literally and others take it as allegories. From genesis, to hell, the very nature of god, and a long etc. My guess is that if it weren’t for documented staistics about actual believe, a future archeologist could also arrive to a similar conclusion about nowadays religious practices, it is a somehow loosely held set of diverging believes that serves mostly a social function for an important part of society.
It’s still shocking how history seems to always repeat. This was much like the church condemning early emerging Alchemists for their views along with other “sacrilegious” forward thinkers.
You know the author treats the subject ahistorically and does a lot of projection, when you hear words like "science" and "scientific knowledge", "latest scientific discoveries" and "fundamentalists" used in context of ancient Athens.
"The Athenians, like us, were generally courageous and intelligent people...." Perhaps not as deludedly optimistic about human nature, however! Clearly they were much much more intelligent, courageous and creative than we are now!!!
Here are three of my favorite quotes regarding belief: “The one place gods inarguably exist is in the human mind’. Alan Moore “Belief is the death of intelligence. As soon as one believes a doctrine of any sort, or assumes certitude, one stops thinking about that aspect of existence.” Robert Anton Wilson, Cosmic Trigger “In this book it is spoken of the sephiroth and the paths, of spirits and conjurations, of gods, spheres, and planes and many other things which may or may not exist. It is immaterial whether they exist or not. By doing certain things, certain results follow; students are most earnestly warned against attributing objective reality or philosophical validity to any of them.” Aleister Crowley
funny thing is, while belief is where intelligence ends, it is also where intelligence starts. You can only draw conclusions if there are assumptions to base on, and assumptions can only be believed, not proven. If you can prove an assumption, it just means that there are even deeper assumptions that it is based on. Because conclusions, thoughts, intelligence, etc, are all built on top of beliefs, it makes sense that the realm of belief is where these things start and end.
@@andrewzhao444 A philosopher usually needs to start from an axiom or two. One of the Pre-Socratics (I forget who) resolved to say nothing of which he was not certain. He found himself silenced and reduced to pointing with his finger.
@@dkatomski or alternatively, don't require logical consistency. I really like this one, because while you can still have logic where you want it, you also get freedom to go without where logic can't quite reach or doesn't fit comfortably. So I often do believe something as well as its opposite. Everyone does this, because humans are not perfect logic machines, I just accept it to some degree and work with it.
the part at the end about "imagination" is so close to being right!, but was only intimating at what I think is the way to go / be into the mythic territory-- some kind of archetypal psychological analysis / perspective. your atheistic bias (and maybe lack of the jungian archetypal perspective / knowledge / option?) was showing kind of strongly there. not to say / mention also (and I understand the feeling / where you're coming from most likely with it) that you are basically accusing all people who believe in "god" / gods to be delusional 😂 which yes, might be justified 😅 but they certainly don't think so!
I suspect most of them just saw them as cautionary tales. If you hear the story about the boy that cried wolf and then try to identify exact when, where and what boy then you totally missed the point.
But what if the boy had a name? It might make you wonder a bit more about when and where. Think about the Trojan heroes like Achilles, very different from talking animals in Aesop
I think the political motivation behind the prosecution of Socrates was a much more important factor than confected outrage over his religious views, which was just a convenient excuse to bring charges.
I think the belief of God is more fundamental. Like if you ask if christians believe in God, and believe in every bible story, you will often get different answeres
Socrates really was killed because he taught the leader of the spartan "vichy government" who killed lots of athenians. They suspected that he was against democracy. He was silent under the sanguinary regime.
Oh, come on. You can't bring up the execution of Socrates (it was actually the suicide of a man in despair) without talking about his devotees, Alcibiades and Critias. Alcibiades was spoiled, upper-class frat boy, delighting is mocking all the proprieties of the hoi polloi. Before the disastrous Sicilian expedition took sail, he and his frat boy buddies went on a frat-boy spree, knocking the erect penises off of the herms, the columnar statues guarding the entrances of houses. Alcibiades had persuaded the foolish electorate to approve of launching the Sicilian Expedition, promising them unimaginable riches, even though there was no provocation for this assault on a distant island, and it in no way addressed the threat of their real enemies, the Spartans. The expedition was a horrific, humiliating, unmitigated disaster for the Athenians taking part; their suffering was excruciating. After the expedition, Alcibiades returned to Greece, selling himself to any city state that would have him, including enemies of Athens. Yeah, the snarky Socrates encouraged the insufferable Alcibiades. And then there was Critias. After the debacle of the Sicilian Expedition, when Athens was on its knees, Critias appointed himself along with nine other upper-class fascists to be dictators. Make no mistake: Socrates despised democracy; he doted on the upper class frat boys, basking in their glamor. Yeah, he taught Critias that all power rightfully belonged to the upper class, and Critias took that to the logical (extreme) conclusion. The people of Athens had good reason to hate Socrates. Read "The Trial of Socrates" by the much revered independent journalist, I. F. Stone. It s a scathing indictment of Socrates. This pious cult of Socrates has to end.
@@Keimelia Quite rightly noted. My concern is that people might think that Socrates died because Olympian-religion fundamentalists got their nickers in a twist. And because I believe that I. F. Stone's book is a brilliant corrective to Socrates-piety. (It's been decades since I studied this stuff, but I decided to slog in with a rant anyway. Had a brain fart about the 30 Tyrants thing.)
@@Keimelia A gracious reply. I jump on every opportunity to urge people to read I. F. Stone's book. I remember back in my university days seeing a guy wearing a "Socrates" baseball cap who said that Socrates was his hero. My lip curls at the memory. (I am an irritable cur.)
So, as a modern Hellenist - a modern worshiper of the Greek Gods, I agree with the myths not being taken literally, but must be conveyed with some scientific truth beneath the surface, because science is sacred in Hellenism. Many other Hellenists share this as well. However, we live in a predominantly Christian society in the West, and many Christians believe in mythic literalism.
I mean technically speaking a modern hellenist is just practically just a classical pagan is it not? Considering all pagan religions in west Eurasia stem from the same indo European root. or do you believe only in the greek variant?
@@Testimony_Of_JTF Yes we do believe in Zeus. We believe in Athena, Hera, Aphrodite, Poseidon, Hades, whatever you name. We believe because we see it as Truth and Good.
@@sterrnerdeem4979 But why, exactly? I really don't see how the Greek pantheon would fit into what we know about the nature of God. By "God" I mean the classical theist God. Unmoved mover, uncaused cause, etc. From my undeestanding of Greek myths the gods are all contingent and not purely actual.
When you look at the title of the video, I guess I have to ask the question Do you believe in Santa Claus? and I would then say in answer to the video title: "of course they did!"
I think it's really unfair to call the greek religion "mythology" while saying that christianity and other religions are "not mythology". Obviously there have been different ideas about religion throughout history, and there will continue to be. The greeks had a religion that they believed in just as much as Christians do today (and they had just as much evidence for it).
@@Keimelia It's unfair to their memory. It implies that the ancients were somehow lesser because they worshipped something they knew not to be true, or was obviously untrue in a way that doesn't apply to modern religion.
@@Keimelia so because their minority you’re fine with disrespecting them? Whereas muslims you give a free pass for worshiping a disgusting Pedo because there’s a lot of them?
Part of this is the difference in the way we use the word "myth". To the Greeks it simply meant a story, and there was more to the practice of religion than just the stories. In our culture "myth" means archetype that we use for personality theory, and so that word is not consistent with Christian epistemology.
@@andrewtime2994 Quite an interesting topic. Can I point you to my video on the subject? ruclips.net/video/VWd112lLVdc/видео.html Take a look and tell me what you think.
You had me until the end, where you just glossed over the nature of belief as being purely imaginary. If we go by the roles of materialist empirical science, spirituality is one of those things we cannot prove nor disprove. Having at least a sentence of "Well maybe, " or "We can't truly say..." about that would be better.
I think it's important to keep in mind that the Athenians have been waging propaganda war against ares for like several hundred years. THen they see the Spartans despite being uninterested and debilitated in the 2nd phase of the pelopnesian war. Reacted to athens invading and just utterly Destroyed Athens. They could have wiped them out right then and there. Like the Athenians made out they would if they could. Then apparently Ares apparently sided with the Thebans against Sparta for his own reasons. Which would of shaken their belief a lot that Ares was a evil aggressive god. and Athena was the defender of cities. THen they had the oppossite shoved in their face repeatedly and their own hubris. There invincible goddess got mauled by Ares who did not even seem to want to fight. I am sure the athenian elite would of had that on their mind. How aware of how much blasphemy and corruption they routinely practiced in their own cults I am not sure of but there's evidence of blackmailing and bribing other cities to do it to. SO they knew to an extant. Athena Also stupidly and massively overextended itself then started several including the new one against sparta to. Not very strategic.
For all interested in more debate, let me know what you think! ---> ruclips.net/video/JjFMmbhZ_UA/видео.html
The main charge against Socrates was not atheism, it was the corruption of the youth. Atheism was among the charges, but Socrates himself claims to believe in the very Gods he was accused of not believing.
I’m actually going to do a video on what Socrates believed! It’s a bit more complicated than either of us is making it out to be. Thanks for watching and commenting.
corrupting the youth.... to be logical atheists 👍
Exactly! Atheism was like an effort to a concrete example of how he was corrupting the youth (by asking uncomfortable questions and making everybody feel like an ass). The crime is specifically "empiety", so to behave in an anti-culturally sanctioned way. Offense to the gods is a stand-in for offense to the people's mores
Except he didn't, you would know if you've read apology more thoroughly
I mean today you can get called a heretic by a Christian and still believe in Christ so it’s probably like that
A theory I've heard, which I rather like, is that it seems *most learned people* believed more in their gods as the things they governed than the myths themselves. That the stories they told were invented by humans to teach and to personify the gods, but those stories were nonetheless a key part of worshiping them, and not worshiping them *would* have consequences. By worshiping Zeus you requested that the very concept of rain and storm grace your city with rain. A little like funky things people do to make their favorite sports team win, but far more widespread, complex and literal.
this certainly seemed to be the Roman idea, but that came quite a bit after Socrates. I do not know if it was the same in Greece, but I imagine it was (or perhaps even more material by that time). you can get a true sense of this type of religious belief from reading Ovid's more 'casual' tone works on Love where he will refer to Cupid/Venus/Bacchus/Apollo etc as being representations of things and feelings. for instance a drunkard may be an acolyte of Bacchus, rather than 'just' a drunkard (unable to regulate his 'love' for Bacchus). in this way the plethora offered by the pantheon affords one much creative liberty, which Ovid utilizes brilliantly. Obviously religion is a fluid thing which shifts not only time to time but person to person, so we can never truly state the 'truth' of an era's religious belief. that said, I dont think its correct to simplify Socrates as being prosecuted for 'atheism' but thats another video.
Superstition
The question kinda expects that the ancient greeks were thinking that you could go to olympus and see zeus on a throne or something. But they knew he wasn't actually, physically there, because there are temples there... to perform ritual. The conceptualization was something far more mysterious than a Marvel Movies level of concept.
The questions also takes athens as the main perspective, but the myths of athens are not the myths or arcadia, esparta or olympia. And the very idea that the myths were different shows that consensus on myth was not fundamental.
Exactly, they also believed that the myths were something of another time/age, like looking to the horizon and not knowing that lies beyond. That realm.
@Msquikly, the actual Mt. Olympus and its throne isn't in Greece but in the archon-riddled archtic (arctic). Every country in the world is in agreement of its no-fly zone. The heathen deities are too cowardly to be seen by the public like back when.
I’m the bride of Christ future cleopatra dictator and second coming of Christ and I have lightning powers. One night when I was sleep I was half awake similar to a deep meditation and I was right under a vent and the rhythm of the lightning was in sync with my throbbing head. I was stressed around that time but my head was throbbing to the rhythm of lightning while I was sleep.
@@Ghostshark8137 I have one question what the fuck
@@no-np8dw lol I know right exactly. I just know I’ll have political power and enough power for the mob and gangs to bow down. I think that’s the point of having it. Probably for democrat leaders too since im a conservative if u know what I mean. I think god was giving me a sample of what a real god on earth does. It’s biblical prophecy that I’ll be revealed. Plus there’s more but don’t wanna get off subject. Lately I’ve been researching the worship of Zeus.
Wow, this is an extremely well put together video. This channel will definitely blow up in the near future!
Thank you for watching!
Is that a threat?
Great video, no one ever seems to talk about Diagoras.
I'm glad you liked it! I am really enjoying your series on the Presocratics as well. I really like the idea that Diagoras might have written the Derveni Papyrus, it gives him a little more context than just the "atheism guy." I think more can be made (than usually is) of the atmosphere at Athens in late 5th which caused Socrates to drink the Hemlock. It wasn't just a one off.
I asked this same question on quora years ago and no one answered. I'm glad you made this vid.
Recently I've seen a class here in RUclips where Socrates' condemnation was rather seen in light of the context of recent defeat in the war against Sparta and the tense political climate in Athens after the rule of the thirty tyrants, where some of Socrates' former students contributed, hence the accusation of corrupting the youth. It's an interesting perspective, I think.
The war definitely was a factor. When a community is under immense stress it is very common for reactionary or conservative ideals to seem extra important and worth defending. Excellent point.
@@Keimelia It's good to take the social context into account. Intellectual history does not take place in a vacuum, divorced from everyday life.
Looking at the US, the second world war was followed by the Eisenhower-era proscriptions of communism and homosexuality, and the addition of "under God" to the pledge of allegiance first enforced during the war.
Plato may have been insincere. Socrates was a conservative, as Plato was. The attack against Socrates was intended to be against the oligarchic trends.
@@alangivre2474 well, I haven't read much plato, but from the Republic, there isn't much indication that Socrates is being portrayed as conservative, him finding reason to contradict almost every aspect of his society. All in all, if Plato was attempting to parody socrates, it was with such subtlety that it fooled much of western society for hundreds of years, while never really presenting any explicit counterpoint to socrates' views in the story which are usually reasonable, or at least comprehensible. Is there any greek author, or contemporary of his, that showed such a subtly ironical style? That's why I find that hypothesis implausible.
Wow! this was such a well put together video, I was surprised to see that this has only 87 views, and you only 479 subscribers
I'm glad you liked it!
Hey amazing video, very informative, keep the work up and you will surely gain great prominence on RUclips.
Im glad you enjoyed it!
The quality of this is amazing. Had to sub
Very nice, keep up the good work.
Would've appreciated a more concise answer of the question in the title. Especially towards the end it felt more like a word jumble.
I always thought their beliefs were very loose, like they would refer to a certain god as if they were a real person but not really mean it per se. I imagine it was very hard to take the whole "the gods live on Mount Olympus" thing seriously when Mount Olympus is an actual, physical place people could just go and see for themselves
Have you ever in your life climbed a mountain? 😐 That’s not something you just go do.
@@disguisedcentennial835 Mount Olympus is a physical place that is reachable, however hard it may or may not be to get to, the greeks even built the Temple of Zeus there, contrast, to say, the christians, who say their god is in Heaven, which is technically another plane of existence entirely. my point was that, by saying their pantheon lived in a tangible place, quite a lot of the "mystique" and wonder was nonexistent
@@40088922 as a counter point, if the greeks took their belief seriously, then giving the gods a tangible home on earth would only serve to increase their zeal. I mean, imagine walking on a spot that you truly thought was home to your gods, I could imagine it feeling empowering and mystical, especially given the weather phenomena at higher altitudes. Not saying this is the case but it makes for an interesting thought considering the allegorical means of thinking that the video highlights
There may have been Greeks that believed in this, but then there's also Platonists like I who believe the Gods exist beyond the world. Socrates is one of our teachers that we Follow. Sure the Gods can bring down their forms into our world and communicate, but they aren't *literal* physical beings like how some people believe.
Woefully underrated channel.
This was very fascinating especially as I have been wondering about this myself. Great video keep up the good work cant believe you do not have more subscribers :)
For anyone intrested the channel Let's Talk Religion has a good video on the Eleusinian Mysteries
Thank you for watching the video! It is a very very interesting question that can be approached from many different angles.
Seems one could draw many parallels in the way Socrates and his contemporaries interpreted the Iliad to the way Christian text today is often interpreted in a narrative rather than literal fashion in light of scientific discoveries. Great video, surprised you don't have more views
Did Chrisitians ever take things literally? Books like Revelations are pretty clearly not meant to be taken literally
@@Testimony_Of_JTF as someone who studies semitics and it's histories, yes. They took a lot of it literally.
Since Christians and jews were contemporaries to Greeks and Roman's, I'd have to assume they also took their stories pretty literally
@@Testimony_Of_JTF it depends on which narrative you're talking about. I'm a Christian, ask me anything :)
Just because something is a parable or allegorical or poetic etc doesn't make what scripture is talking about not literal
Great video! Learned a lot of new things today
Excellent, Im glad you enjoyed it!
This analysis needs political and sociological insight to go deeper. Did the rich and powerful have the same beliefs as the poor? How many could read and spend time on philosophical musings? How much did you care about earthly and trascendent matters when war, famine and disease were totally different? How much vested interest did kings and oligarchs have in using myth as a means of social control? And so on
The trouble is all we really have to go on are the myths themselves, and specifically the musings / history of philosophers around Athens.
Great video! Finally a good youtube recommendation!
People today get accused of things that don't turn out necessarily to be true. How can we trust the accusers?
That’s the point. He was wrongly executed.
I am a Hellenic pagan in STEM. I don't think my religion affects my work, though there may be idiots which do let religion govern their work. I don't think being a pagan is exclusive with sensibly engaging in scientific reason.
May the Old Gods bless your endeavours
Wait, people unironically believe in that? Why?
Also- Paganism and science do conflict. Paganism is pure fantasy, fiction writing. None of that is real or can be proven real.
Saying "Well it's not meant to be taken literally" is just cope for being wrong and knowning it
@@TempleofBrendaSong Non existant beings can't do anything
@@Testimony_Of_JTF For the same reason people believe in any contemporary religion
I’d be interested in tracking down the Philodemus quote included around 1:39, especially in the original Greek. Unfortunately, I was unable to find it using the reference “F 738 Most and Laks, Philodemus, On Piety” included in the video. Would it be possible to include a link to the source, or perhaps even a pasted version of the original?
Whoops my citation is wrong! Diagoras' fragments are in Campbell's Lyric Poets IV Loeb (among other places)
Here is a link: www.amazon.com/Greek-Lyric-Bacchylides-Corinna-Classical/dp/0674995082/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3OXGQ25C7JTHW&keywords=Campbell+Lyric+IV&qid=1670165438&s=books&sprefix=campbell+lyric+iv%2Cstripbooks%2C74&sr=1-1
Sorry I made a mistake I thought they were in Most and Laks' Presocratics in the same series.
Thank you for this! Very interesting
It's strange to see just how far back the conflict between "science" and "religion" go
Yes because for them they were not myths, they were their religion!
Nowadays we know that there is no Zeus living in a palace at the top of Mount Olympus…
For us today is mythology, for these people is was religion.
Yet in climbing the mount Olympus one feels closer to Zeus
@@TempleofBrendaSong Yet when my mom goes to church she feels closer tho Christ, your point?
@@Testimony_Of_JTF what about you?
@@TempleofBrendaSong I have felt God at times. That could simply be a placebo or there really is a God.
I'm not religious but don't deny any possibility of super natural beings existing and affecting our lifes
My point was just that ALL people of ALL faiths "feel" their deities. My mom cries out loud when she prays. Would that mean Jesus Christ really is our Lord and saviour?
@@Testimony_Of_JTF Do you really believe or do you say that you believe so that your parents dont feel threatened? But once theyre gone do you still believe??
Came here for an answer to the question of the title. I did not get any.
You are not always going to get simple answers to complex questions. The best you can hope for is to understand the context as well as possible.
@@Keimelia I did not get simple answers nor did I get any complex ones. I just got some context around this topic. I think that the title of this video creates some expectations that are sadly not matched by the actual content. A clickbait of some sorts..
Awesome video! Algorithm please get this man more subscribers!
Wouldn’t have been surprised if I saw a 100,000+ subscriber count. This was a quality video!
Yes, ancient greeks and romans were extremely religious and spiritual.
That's why they thought they are in spiritual decline compared to Egypt
All the ancient people were...it just ancient Greeks and Romans were the ones who were writing everything down. What they thought, their troubles, their philosophical debates. Literally everything, so we can know better how they were. Celts, Germans, Thracians, Illyrians didn't even have a proper writing system, Egyptians with their hierarchical clergy would write down more about their stuff, Persians and Indians were good at writing down and they were also extremely pious and religious...
So what is the unique in Greek and Romans? That they were a culture that despite their own religious society, produced thousands of scientists and a whole bunch of micro cultures exploring reality, the material world as it is, atheism, they created the first philosophical movement to ask why about anything you see around you and demand to explore the world with realism rather with mythology.
@@vanmars5718 there was no distinction between religion, philosophy and science for the greeks. They couldve debated on the naming, which is reflected in that vid, but it was an undivided field
@@hoobsug That's not absolutely right. Although the unseen world an immensely important role, still someone can argue about each individual case or philosophical movement. Also, the time range is a different thing that we have to take into consideration. The time of Solon or Socrates is centuries before the great scientists of Alexandria and all the between.
Still my point was different, I've although their society was also religious as any other society they did produced a culture that demanded to ask questions and explore the material world, no matter if your results will come out as atheistic. For many Greek philosophers your argument and where you base your conclusions was extremely important and influential even if they didn't side or share your views.
@@vanmars5718 your talk of "scientist" in these ancient times is hilariously anachronistic
Well done; keep the good work. Congratulations.
Really great video!
You seem to have chosen a time when the Greek Pantheon were being used as literary characters (as we know from extant plays and epics). Actual Greek culture came from a much wider time span during which personifications of nature became codified.
This sheds some light on why the Greeks and Romans were antithetical to early Christianity, and even called them "atheists". When Paul visited Athens, he noticed an altar that said, "to an unknown god" and began preaching about Christ, and a lot of what he said must have sounded very similar to the monotheistic musings of the Presocratics.
The first video from this channel I have watched. It appeared in my RUclips feed. Probably because I have been watching the Religion for Breakfast and Let's Talk Religion channels. This channel looks good and I hope it does well. But did or didn't the Ancient Greeks of classical times believe in their myths?
They didn't
Or maybe they did!
No seriously you can't always get simple answers to complex questions. They best you can hope for is to understand the context as well as you can.
@@Keimelia Actually this isn't the first time I've come across this question. I read a book by Richard Buxton of the university of Bristol on this long time ago.
Just to add in some thinking, I believe Joseph Campbell's. Monomyth detection, 'The Hero of a thousand faces' is a common template that frames Greek myth, Hinduism, Judaism, Roman myth and more. We stand too close to see what is there. It's tricky but these myths are built on that template. First emerged in Babylonian creation myth, The Enuma Elish in a fun form. They play out in the human psyche. IMHO. -edited to add- At the very least, the authors of the stories knew they were fake.
The phrase used in the end “weird, spiritual practices” tells me all I need to know about the validity of anything you say
Equally the fact you take such offense to that position, tells me I can probably safely disregard anything you say.
An Axe chops both ways.
Plutarch - who was not only a historian but also a religious thinker and Apollo's priest - wrote a whole book about the problem of the lack of imminent divine punishment of sins - 5 centuries after Diagoras of Melos. (I read that book.) And this problem seems to be so strong in the Greek religious world that it is even mentioned in the New Testament. Apostle Saint Paul - a contemporary to Plutarch - was a castway on the Maltese shores. And when a snake sneaked onto his arm bystanders thought that "this man is a criminal whose divine punishment just arrived". But he survived without trouble and then some thought he himself could be divine.
The common people of ancient Hellas generally believed in their gods, but for the educated aristocracy, it was usually just a social convention to be observed for practical purposes. The surviving Hellenic texts we have are riddled with references to a capitalized Theos or Theikos (the Divine) in obvious acknowledgement that some power above Zeus and the other gods was the true originating and sustaining power of the Cosmos.
.And what are these texts? Names?
In a human way is completely makes since why such concepts of agnostic/atheistic ideas would come during such a time period. Even today the loss of faith can be attributed to human nature itself, when you see some atrocity going punished in fact it's often times rewarded depending on what it is or when you see somebody who doesn't deserve what they have gain far more than you do only for you to get an even shorter end of the stick often times can breed the ideas of losing faith in something. My personal belief and the spirituality is simply that it's not there entirely for our own benefit and gain but it's there to help us and that the Gods (or god I'm not ignoring him either) can only do so much and maybe they have their own way of doing things that are so far beyond our comprehension that how on Earth could we as people even judge their actions? The simple answer is we can't, I can't just simply ask God as to why is there terrible things in the world and why he let it happen, I will never know that answer and I probably don't even have the rights to that answer either.
What do you mean by "i will never know that answer"?
You can get the answer, every religion gives that answer. You are just don't trying to find it.
Absolutely not true whatsoever
I'm and atheist. I know many atheists.
It's NOTHING to do with "not getting what we deserve" or because we suffered some tragedy. That is the worst load of bull.
If anything, nearly every atheist out there has a better life than the religious!
Eh, all religions are obvious fakes, totally human made.
The Greek gods were among the most obvious because they're humans , but made to be immortal, bigger, stronger and more powerful versions of real humans.
From their writings you can deduce, that the Greeks (and the Romans for that matter) as soon as they became more sophisticated and cosmopolitan and saw other versions of the gods, they made their own conclusions, at least some of the most well educated among them.
After all it is really easy to realize of the falsehood of all Religions, once you know what you're looking for.
As Montesquieu said "if Triangles had gods they would make them with three sides" 😆
Why does it have to be this way?
@@danielcrafter9349 bruh you can't just state something without evidence like there is no way telling if a certain group of people live better than others, it's like me saying " it's obvious that pineapple in pizza is better than anything" or "people that like black are more depressed than people that like white" , also he said one of the many reasons as to why people doubt the existence of God not the main reason as to why some people are atheist
Great information.
Subscribed!
In my opinion the belief in the irrational doesn’t suit the believer, but it serves as an indicator to Power that the masses are in line with the politics of the nation. Whenever, a person is identified and labeled as an atheist serves as an indicator that the individual is disconnected and free-thinking. This individual now posses a threat to the established order desired by the Empire/Nation. In other words irrationality is a feature when it comes to religion.
You do know that early Christians were called atheists right?
You are aware Socrates, your so called free-thinker, literally wanted the myths to be modified so that they would be used as propaganda and, instead of telling the truth, telling whatever was needed to educate children according to his ideas. The people who sentenced him were literally preserving the integrity of the myths so they wouldn't be used for manipulation. Also, our religion is not irrational in the least
@@alejandror.planas9802 Indeed Socrates/Plato’s thoughts were rogue. The government used its powers in a failed attempt to sway Socrates, but was forced to feed him hemlock instead, even at his advanced age. The government feared corruption of the youth via strange Gods.
@@solomonessix6909 The government feared a crazy man attempting to manipulate children by wilfully lying to them with political aims. I would also be concerned of someone like him tbh.
You seem to imply that atheists are free from irrationality and always "free thinking", when you look at atheism today, it's almost as dogmatic as the religions they criticize.
Can you answer the question, do we believe our own?
So the ancient Greeks gradually became more skeptical about their deities, and then began to interpret their stories more figuratively, as allegories, rather than as literal facts. We are seeing the same today with regards to the Bible.
Incredible job. Learned a lot!
I'm not sure if my beliefs. But I know that my Gods have helped me psychologically, to improve myself, first my mind, and then the rest. With my mind occupied by the company of a God being, gives me strength and courage..
That's why Gods were thought out after all. Each God is like an Imaginary friend.
And in the future people took it wayy too seriously, whoever created you won't make you suffer for actions that you did and they didn't like, I believe it does not work that way.
I'd be happy to meet your Gods.
I wonder how long before the Bible is considered mythology, and the people of that will wonder if we believed all that.
Imagine being executed for not wanting to believe in someone else's imaginary friends
One of many reasons why religion must stop.
They absolutely believed in them for a good while, especially when the gods were present at physical locations, the fallen angels absolutely existed and just because you weren't there doesn't mean they weren't, actually you have no idea what existed back through time although you will demand that you know everything.
We have to give it our best shot!
Just a retcon to demonize all other religions.
And here we are in 2022 still clinging to the weariness of moving in circles.
Well said. A message for all times. Thank you.
Socrates wasn’t accused so much of atheism as “impiety”. Socrates WAS very religious though, and it influenced much of his philosophy. Even His last words were about Asklepios- the Greek god of medicine and healing
Diogenes is my favorite Greek philosopher
The short answer is yes, the long one is it might have varied among people, like today.
I often ask this about Middle Earth, if they actually believed their creation myths about the Ainur and how the Sun, Moon, and Elendil were created.
Yes, they did believe in it because in the story they had direct contact with the supernatural. Sauron and his wraiths were very real and elves like Galadriel actually lived in the Undying Lands in the past and met real gods. It's not like in the real world where cultures have different beliefs but cannot actually interact with the entities they believe in. In Tolkien's world the divine and the supernatural are very real and often interact with the physical world. People don't have to blindly believe in Sauron (who's an angel/demi god), they can actually see him
Bilbo's oldest friend, Gandalf was already an "old man" when he was a kid and was his grandfather's old friend. Gandalf then proceeds to be in Bilbo's 111th birthday. Of course something supernatural is up in Middle Earth 😆
@@christianrogers4980 and Elrond's father became a star, sure, but what about the music of the Ainur? no one was around for that, or even for the pillars of light, before the trees, etc.
@@phoule76 of course there were witnesses. Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast and Sauron were there. The maiar were created before the music that created the universe. They witnessed it all
@@christianrogers4980 I guess it's said that they were, there, under different names, but none of them claim to have been there; therein lies the "myth" argument.
Zeus/Jupiter is just another iteration of the indo-European sky god deus-pater. It’s Ancient worship, so it wasn’t like a random greek came up the name the god and term far predates greek culture.
Just making a counterpoint to Diogenes allegory. Even though his point still stands if you wind the clock back far enough.
And perhaps there is some *_truth_* behind many (most? all?) of those ancient legends. For instance, the story of Metis, Zeus and Athena may be metaphor for Plato's Atlantis. Now that we have scientific evidence from 3 different disciplines for a massive, world-changing event at the same time as the destruction of Plato's lost island empire, and at the same time that two different mtDNA haplogroup "X" peoples were separated, we have to realize that logical fallacies of the past have never served us very well. We are left with the humbling attitude: *_"I don't know!"_*
REFERENCES:
*_Mission: Atlantis_* (hardcover, paperback, ebook)
*_Forbidden Archaeology_* by Michael Cremo
*_Dumb Genius: How intelligence is sometimes its own worst enemy_* (hardcover, paperback, ebook)
some of these videos covering the video titles are questions I’ve wondered before, BUT i thought they were slightly bad and weak questions to ask the internet. …
cant believe i got to this channel early!!!! remember me when u blow up. great nuanced video!
Thank you! I'm glad you enjoyed it.
I don't need a 7 minute video to answer this question.
I don't think I can find any group or culture in all of written history that didn't believe in some sort make-believe.
Why should we expect it might have been different in ancient greece? people today believe all kinds of weird stuff.
astrology, ghosts, cryptids, urban legends, birds, flat earth, that god listens to their prayers, that voting will make a difference ect.
I'm sure each of us, you and me and everyone, all believe in at least one lie whether they heard it from someone else or they simply convinced themselves.
I think maybe they thought of the Gods omnipresence like Christianity did. With God always being there, if you go to a church the people will say “You are in the house of God,” referring to God being there in Spirit. The Christian myths being interpreted with science can also be used as a form to understand what happened with the Greeks. People are moving away from traditional religion with every new scientific insight, others are using religion to reveal philosophy, and the way religious rules were forms of ancient science, Jews not eating pork could have been a form of preventing people from being infected by parasites, with death being the punishment of violating this law. That’s a rough way of possibly understanding the way the ancients believing in religion, they were people with their own sciences the same as you and me, only difference being the technologies available at the time.
Great channel this.
Έλα ρε. Υπέροχο βίντεο
From the sheer amount of effort put into the temples and rituals, It makes sense that most believed in their existence. I assume the only reason people no longer believe in these myths is that they were supplanted by the Abrahamic religions. Maybe in a few thousand years it’ll happen again, and future people will ask if those in our time really believed in Jesus and Muhammad. Though there should be a lot more surviving information to make that easier for them to answer.
very interesting :)
super interesting!
When you see a set of myths such as the Greeks, Romans, Egyptian, Norse etc etc what you're really seeing is the remnants of a ancient mystery school. That being said there were initiates who knew the symbolic meaning behind the myths and knew they were allegorical in nature and you had the regular people who like christians today believed the myths were actual events.
*Superstition is a fatal weakness* like an addiction to alcohol.
No one has a right to alcoholism or superstition.
It's a flaw that killed Socrates for inspiring the youth to question potentially corrupt and inept authority.
That same authority killed Socrates because they did not have the wisdom to debate him on his critical ideas.
No. Think bait and switch. If a culture wished to ‘move in’ on an aspect of a society, or society, leaving myth, fiction, renders specific condition: there is nothing to ‘move in’ on. Dreams that were shattered may not have mattered, take another point of view…
Socrates seemed to be very spiritual and had a lot of discourse on the soul and the spirit, or sub conscious. He taught youth to find reason within themselves, rather than follow a cacophony of chaotic Gods, some good and some mischievous. He understood Olympus as a metaphor, not necessarily as a lie, but something closer to Buddhism where Gods were aspects of human psyche and Prometheus had bestowed knowledge, so turn inward to your reason and climb the mountain of wisdom. Dude was a psychological preacher, the State didn't like that he had reinforced aspects of reason that might criticize their society. I don't think Socrates gave a shit about temple sacrifices, but focused on the actual tenets of the religion.
I think it's funny to name Athenian religious practices strange as a big chunk of the population belives that a piece of bread turns into the literal body of their saviour which they consume....
Well I suppose they believed, in the same way most practitioners of mainstream Christianity do. There’s a common core, but there are also tons of nuances, stories some believe literally and others take it as allegories. From genesis, to hell, the very nature of god, and a long etc. My guess is that if it weren’t for documented staistics about actual believe, a future archeologist could also arrive to a similar conclusion about nowadays religious practices, it is a somehow loosely held set of diverging believes that serves mostly a social function for an important part of society.
It’s still shocking how history seems to always repeat. This was much like the church condemning early emerging Alchemists for their views along with other “sacrilegious” forward thinkers.
I always assume they didn't, but I do wonder
You know the author treats the subject ahistorically and does a lot of projection, when you hear words like "science" and "scientific knowledge", "latest scientific discoveries" and "fundamentalists" used in context of ancient Athens.
I actually prefer “the videographer” :) could you be more specific about what you find so objectionable?
The Derveni papyrus is so amazing! maybe I should stop talking about it??? No! haha ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ (!)
"The Athenians, like us, were generally courageous and intelligent people...."
Perhaps not as deludedly optimistic about human nature, however! Clearly they were much much more intelligent, courageous and creative than we are now!!!
Pitt Tena Dues
Here are three of my favorite quotes regarding belief:
“The one place gods inarguably exist is in the human mind’.
Alan Moore
“Belief is the death of intelligence. As soon as one believes a doctrine of any sort, or assumes certitude, one stops thinking about that aspect of existence.”
Robert Anton Wilson, Cosmic Trigger
“In this book it is spoken of the sephiroth and the paths, of spirits and conjurations, of gods, spheres, and planes and many other things which may or may not exist. It is immaterial whether they exist or not. By doing certain things, certain results follow; students are most earnestly warned against attributing objective reality or philosophical validity to any of them.”
Aleister Crowley
funny thing is, while belief is where intelligence ends, it is also where intelligence starts.
You can only draw conclusions if there are assumptions to base on, and assumptions can only be believed, not proven. If you can prove an assumption, it just means that there are even deeper assumptions that it is based on.
Because conclusions, thoughts, intelligence, etc, are all built on top of beliefs, it makes sense that the realm of belief is where these things start and end.
@@andrewzhao444 A philosopher usually needs to start from an axiom or two. One of the Pre-Socratics (I forget who) resolved to say nothing of which he was not certain. He found himself silenced and reduced to pointing with his finger.
Those are pretty modern views for what ancient people thought, in accordance with the authors of the mythos' of the past
“My technique is don’t believe anything. If you believe in something, you are automatically precluded from believing its opposite.” -
Terence McKenna
@@dkatomski or alternatively, don't require logical consistency. I really like this one, because while you can still have logic where you want it, you also get freedom to go without where logic can't quite reach or doesn't fit comfortably.
So I often do believe something as well as its opposite. Everyone does this, because humans are not perfect logic machines, I just accept it to some degree and work with it.
Would you think otherwise
imagine being punished for not believing something. horrible
They believed in Democracy and that was the end for them....
Do modern people believe two of every animal fit in a boat?
Oh, ancient Greeks. I thought you meant Did the [MODERN] Greeks believe in their myths. As in ancient myths like the Olympians, Perseus, etc.
the part at the end about "imagination" is so close to being right!, but was only intimating at what I think is the way to go / be into the mythic territory-- some kind of archetypal psychological analysis / perspective. your atheistic bias (and maybe lack of the jungian archetypal perspective / knowledge / option?) was showing kind of strongly there. not to say / mention also (and I understand the feeling / where you're coming from most likely with it) that you are basically accusing all people who believe in "god" / gods to be delusional 😂 which yes, might be justified 😅 but they certainly don't think so!
I suspect most of them just saw them as cautionary tales. If you hear the story about the boy that cried wolf and then try to identify exact when, where and what boy then you totally missed the point.
But what if the boy had a name? It might make you wonder a bit more about when and where. Think about the Trojan heroes like Achilles, very different from talking animals in Aesop
I think the political motivation behind the prosecution of Socrates was a much more important factor than confected outrage over his religious views, which was just a convenient excuse to bring charges.
This Is The Same As Asking “Do Christians, Jews Or Muslims Believe In Their God?” I Don’t See Much Of A Difference
I think the belief of God is more fundamental. Like if you ask if christians believe in God, and believe in every bible story, you will often get different answeres
@@briandiehl9257 Well It’s Still Very Mythical, Or Otherwise Fantasy-Like. It Takes A Lot For Someone To Want To Believe In It
Socrates really was killed because he taught the leader of the spartan "vichy government" who killed lots of athenians. They suspected that he was against democracy. He was silent under the sanguinary regime.
The Executions would have been over politics . Any violence done in the name of religion is politics .
Oh, come on. You can't bring up the execution of Socrates (it was actually the suicide of a man in despair) without talking about his devotees, Alcibiades and Critias. Alcibiades was spoiled, upper-class frat boy, delighting is mocking all the proprieties of the hoi polloi. Before the disastrous Sicilian expedition took sail, he and his frat boy buddies went on a frat-boy spree, knocking the erect penises off of the herms, the columnar statues guarding the entrances of houses. Alcibiades had persuaded the foolish electorate to approve of launching the Sicilian Expedition, promising them unimaginable riches, even though there was no provocation for this assault on a distant island, and it in no way addressed the threat of their real enemies, the Spartans. The expedition was a horrific, humiliating, unmitigated disaster for the Athenians taking part; their suffering was excruciating. After the expedition, Alcibiades returned to Greece, selling himself to any city state that would have him, including enemies of Athens. Yeah, the snarky Socrates encouraged the insufferable Alcibiades. And then there was Critias. After the debacle of the Sicilian Expedition, when Athens was on its knees, Critias appointed himself along with nine other upper-class fascists to be dictators. Make no mistake: Socrates despised democracy; he doted on the upper class frat boys, basking in their glamor. Yeah, he taught Critias that all power rightfully belonged to the upper class, and Critias took that to the logical (extreme) conclusion. The people of Athens had good reason to hate Socrates.
Read "The Trial of Socrates" by the much revered independent journalist, I. F. Stone. It s a scathing indictment of Socrates. This pious cult of Socrates has to end.
Note that the title of the video wasn’t : list of all the reasons the Athenians hated Socrates
@@Keimelia Quite rightly noted. My concern is that people might think that Socrates died because Olympian-religion fundamentalists got their nickers in a twist. And because I believe that I. F. Stone's book is a brilliant corrective to Socrates-piety. (It's been decades since I studied this stuff, but I decided to slog in with a rant anyway. Had a brain fart about the 30 Tyrants thing.)
No it's true and you're probably right politics deserve a mention in any treatment of Socrates' death.
@@Keimelia A gracious reply. I jump on every opportunity to urge people to read I. F. Stone's book. I remember back in my university days seeing a guy wearing a "Socrates" baseball cap who said that Socrates was his hero. My lip curls at the memory. (I am an irritable cur.)
So, as a modern Hellenist - a modern worshiper of the Greek Gods, I agree with the myths not being taken literally, but must be conveyed with some scientific truth beneath the surface, because science is sacred in Hellenism. Many other Hellenists share this as well. However, we live in a predominantly Christian society in the West, and many Christians believe in mythic literalism.
I mean technically speaking a modern hellenist is just practically just a classical pagan is it not? Considering all pagan religions in west Eurasia stem from the same indo European root. or do you believe only in the greek variant?
Why would you believe in something that is so obviously not true? Like, you believe in Zeus?
@@nikoknowledge6660 proto indo european religion is its own thing. The other religions that came out of it differ a lot
@@Testimony_Of_JTF Yes we do believe in Zeus. We believe in Athena, Hera, Aphrodite, Poseidon, Hades, whatever you name. We believe because we see it as Truth and Good.
@@sterrnerdeem4979 But why, exactly? I really don't see how the Greek pantheon would fit into what we know about the nature of God. By "God" I mean the classical theist God. Unmoved mover, uncaused cause, etc.
From my undeestanding of Greek myths the gods are all contingent and not purely actual.
When you look at the title of the video, I guess I have to ask the question Do you believe in Santa Claus? and I would then say in answer to the video title: "of course they did!"
I think it's really unfair to call the greek religion "mythology" while saying that christianity and other religions are "not mythology". Obviously there have been different ideas about religion throughout history, and there will continue to be. The greeks had a religion that they believed in just as much as Christians do today (and they had just as much evidence for it).
Unfair to whom? The thing is very few people believe in Zeus anymore. That very fact is what compels us to say “myth” but you are basically correct
@@Keimelia It's unfair to their memory. It implies that the ancients were somehow lesser because they worshipped something they knew not to be true, or was obviously untrue in a way that doesn't apply to modern religion.
@@Keimelia so because their minority you’re fine with disrespecting them? Whereas muslims you give a free pass for worshiping a disgusting Pedo because there’s a lot of them?
Part of this is the difference in the way we use the word "myth". To the Greeks it simply meant a story, and there was more to the practice of religion than just the stories. In our culture "myth" means archetype that we use for personality theory, and so that word is not consistent with Christian epistemology.
@@andrewtime2994 Quite an interesting topic. Can I point you to my video on the subject? ruclips.net/video/VWd112lLVdc/видео.html Take a look and tell me what you think.
Some things never change. Many people still beleive their own lies…….🤥😳
You had me until the end, where you just glossed over the nature of belief as being purely imaginary. If we go by the roles of materialist empirical science, spirituality is one of those things we cannot prove nor disprove. Having at least a sentence of "Well maybe, " or "We can't truly say..." about that would be better.
I think it's important to keep in mind that the Athenians have been waging propaganda war against ares for like several hundred years. THen they see the Spartans despite being uninterested and debilitated in the 2nd phase of the pelopnesian war. Reacted to athens invading and just utterly Destroyed Athens. They could have wiped them out right then and there. Like the Athenians made out they would if they could. Then apparently Ares apparently sided with the Thebans against Sparta for his own reasons. Which would of shaken their belief a lot that Ares was a evil aggressive god. and Athena was the defender of cities. THen they had the oppossite shoved in their face repeatedly and their own hubris. There invincible goddess got mauled by Ares who did not even seem to want to fight. I am sure the athenian elite would of had that on their mind. How aware of how much blasphemy and corruption they routinely practiced in their own cults I am not sure of but there's evidence of blackmailing and bribing other cities to do it to. SO they knew to an extant. Athena Also stupidly and massively overextended itself then started several including the new one against sparta to. Not very strategic.
A: For as long and for as far as it kept them alive. But for the rest of the answer, "No." Just like all of the rest of us.
They had no television. But they had stories they had to keep telling to themselves. And gather for food, wine, tributes, etc.
Of course they did. You can't filter history through a modern prism