Now that’s an honest video. I was about to get the straight shot. I just cut firewood for the house. I’m gonna stick with the stock muffler. Thanks for your honesty!
One thing not covered in this vid is fuel mileage. If you're stopping to refuel more often, then you're not saving any time over the course of the workday. Great comparison!
I believe the stock out performs in real world because instead of straight cut you are dogging and loading the saw up more… this means you drop rpm and rely on torque and smaller port with higher velocity always equates to more mid to low end torque. Great video man
I know this was 2 years ago. I think it's valid to point out that the after market mufflers most likely each require a custom tuning to balance out the change in exhaust flow. IMO, this test only showed the advantage a tuned muffler/engine combo can make. If you redid this, tuning for each muffler before you run, then I believe you'll find more value in the results as they'll each be running as intended.
I'm not so sure about that, from all I have read M-Tronic V3.0 still requires the reset when making a larger change such as porting, open pipes, covers, etc. You could be right and I could be wrong. It would be nice if you did this video again with resets recorded before each pipe cover used. Also try it with the air cleaner spit back baffle in and out. This would shut us all up on the topic once and for all LOL!!
@@jamesdepalma6341You’re absolutely right about the porting part, but the M-tronic system doesn’t require a recalibration for muffler and air filter modifications. The only time a saw should need a recalibration is if there is a substantial and sudden change in temperature or elevation.
i wonder if results would be differant if did a carb reset. maybe just swapping cover and running a few cuts isnt enough time for the m-tronic to do its adjusting and get peak performance from them?
Well done. Were the saws run through the autotune sequence between the different muffler configurations. It would be interesting to run the test with both a 8 pin and a 7 pin rim as that might reflect in the results if the torque profile of the engine was changed.
Great job on the testing! I just got an Egan straight shot for my 661 and can’t wait to fire it up. Thanks again and keep up the great work on the channel.
Very interesting! I was looking at getting one of these but if in a real world scenario its not only slower but loud as hell I think i'll give it a pass haha. Fairplay nice scientific approach here.
I like the idea of getting maximum air flow while running the stock exhaust. Seems like those cool looking add-ons are a moot point while increasing air flow is better for engine longevity.
Here's what you do, you keep the original cover for working and you buy the other two mod covers to impress friends and annoy the neighbors within a five mile radius! * Good and honest test video 👍
I just put 3 tanks through my 462 with the bark box. Its seems like it has more torque. It definitely sounds meaner now. I'm curious to see everyone else's experience ⬇️
Ya it's easy to be ignorant too, if you open up the exhaust and add fuel clearly you'd be a dam moron if you didn't think the saw won't have more power 🤣
Honestly if it was to be scientific we would have to remove the human altogether and he could have used a stopwatch shown on the screen. 😎✌️Still fun tho.
I don't think it was your methodology I think that was spot-on (like your bars-comparison video, you did more-than most do!!), I also think you misunderstand their claim because I've only seen their "best-of" HP comparison sheet and it doesn't say "in the cut"....I'm not surprised *at all* that an OEM could outperform it in certain conditions (conditions of, say, frozen/larger woods), and that the open-shot coverS are going to rev outta cut (or in small wood) better, but we of course care about in-the-cut, hard-wood cutting not free-revving or 6" logs w/ a 660....IMO the problem is these covers are just negating the performance benefits of a muffler, "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" by effectively negating the muffler by open-hole'ing the thing. I'll make a video once I've tweaked mine but I actually use a front exit similar enough to these, however I have a "baffle plate" of sorts sandwiched in between that forces the exhaust pulse to shoot right back to the exhaust flange (it's a curved plate) so the back-pressure, scavenging, *and* final muffler-escape-portage are all optimized, letting you get more power w/o the noise and w/o the fuel waste (I can only imagine the piss stream of fuel coming from the bottom of one of those boxes' exits, must just puddle down to the crankcase below :P ) They are good exit-plates, for sure, but the muffler needs a baffle, I know OEM-baffles are notoriously over-choked and one of the reasons is EPA but in a no-EPA world there would still be baffles because there's no room for tuning long-pipes so you have work 'in a box' :P
Awesome, unbiased, comparison. I dont think it can be done any better, and the numbers dont lye. Myself I've discovered that instead of a dual port or some 3 port mufflers a single large port works much better on the saws I've ported. Kind of like a 3 inch exhaust on a car flows better than dual 2 inch. Less surface area and boundary layer I think. Great video I loved it. Thanks.
My only issue with Jason's is its only 10 bucks less than the bark box I got and the bark box does shoot the exhaust a bit vertical and away from my sweet ubreadable blackened serial number.
I disagree with about the bark box I put one on my 440 and my 460 magnum and it made both those saws really work good for stock saws , then I ported them both and I'll tell you wow !!! Now I'm a husqvarna guy and I bought the new 500i and I put a bark box on that saw stock and again wow I'm not worried about loudness the performance is worth the money in my opinion .
Great video, you earned a subscriber. It would be interesting to test these in a chainsaw milling application; long bars and wide/long cuts. I'd imagine torque would be a bigger factor than HP, but the long cut times would be telling. 17% off a 5 or 10 minute cut could be huge. Lower temps could be really beneficial as well.
Good point! That’s where you save the time! The torque is obviously improved because we couldn’t even get them to out cut the stock cover until we put an 8pin on it.
My old ms360 , 20 inch bar , oiler turned all the way up since new and every tank of gas is 3/4 tank of oil used . It cuts 30 inch maple rounds in seconds. Once the ring’s seated it became a beast vrs weight for hours of cutting. I cut a lot of wood on a new chain before it’s first grind.
So what you’re telling me is that the engineers who spend millions of dollars per year on R&D combined with decades of data actually know what they’re doing?? Great video. I love indisputable data!
The only reason engineers get a bad name is in general they are constrained by budgets or regulations. Anyone who has ever designed something for production will happily tell you it could be much better if optimized for performance and or reliability only.
Sir, truer words never spoken, the major saw manufactures are good at what they do, competition keeps them on their toes! Now if you want to hand finish parts and tinker with the mechanics of these saws, then you can help them a little, but over all they are what they are.
maybe you didn't watch the whole thing indoors, trying to be scientific, stock was slower outdoors, in varying diameters, with bark inclusions, stock was faster.
Yep! So where it counts (out in the environment cutting wood) it’s faster and quieter. These enhancements help with things like cylinder temp and flow, but ultimately they don’t make you more productive, whatsoever.
Stock cover won? Almost like the stock cover had millions of $ of engineering behind it or somthing hahahah I think the aftermarket covers need some tuning to really shine since you are changing the exhaust pressures. Great vid.
You know you can only be as fair as you passed and people say you cheated you did the test wrong you have a favor as long as you can honestly say you did your best a doing it right I'm happy about that Just do what you want to do and get back Your pack out your power tools I'll keep watching Something about you makes it you're doing the best test you can explaining what you know in your knowledge 👍🏽🍻🍺👍🏼
Not about bling lol it's about getting as much heat out the engine as possible wich will help your saw not overheat. I do Alaskan milling so my saws get hot wich can kill a saw.
Literally just borrowing my buddies ms461 with a wcs and just searched to see how different stock versus the bark box sound and wound up on this great informational video 😂👍
Double hearing protection absolutely necessary - special moulded fitted ear plugs and grad 5 muffs. I have a Stihl MS 460 with a bark box and running square ground chain, the combination is very very impressive. its a light sabre ... not so fast on the 660, but helpful. You just don't have to work so hard, but when you have to cut wood the chips are long and it throws them a way. For me its made a big difference, especially on a hot day.
I've had 3 460s ... but the one with the bark box and max flow is close to my 500i and a favourite.... make sure you have double ear protection roll plugs and grad 5 muffs asits fearsome noisy..l run square ground on a 24" bar
I fall production timber in the PNW and literally everyone runs a muffler modded saw all day on top of it being port and polish 😅 good video tho I do like the take. Been a WCS user for a minute trying out the straight shot today to mix it up
I agree with doing this again and checking temps. Also the Egan sounded like it was revving higher because it was lean and eventually burn of the saw!!! No Four Stroking Sound to it at all. Run again, Check Temps and set RPM's the same. Four Stroking will save your saws.
thanks for the video. If we think for one minute that the major manufacturers didn't use multiple designs to optimize the saw's performance then we are mistaken. In the search to grab every part of a horse power the competition is harsh, and we must consider back pressure as one of the primary drivers of the design... No, unless it's a tuned pipe, I think that the manufacturers will do better than and after market producer.
even if you dont gain any speed in the cut. a big thing mufflers help with is throttle response and temps. your saw will last longer since its cooler. your right though for a guy who cuts firewood on the weekends its not really worth it but i cut big stumps at work all the time after we take a a tree and it helps id say. it really woke up the 500i for sure. my boss hasnt gotten one for are 661. made a big difference on the 461 too. i wanna try one for the 400c we just got too and see what that does i really like that saw its light and still pulls good.
My experience after two years (Bark Box in my case)... I used it on a 400, great saw but fades a little in the heaviest work. When burrying a 20" bar in a big stump or bucking over 20" D logs, the stock cover sucks and the muffler helps it snort its way through. I think the torque benefit matters more here than the HP or speed. I went back and forth between stock and the muffler mod, and finally settled on the muffler mod. That little bit really does help extend the saws capability. It matters in the do-it-all size saws, like 60 to 80cc. 50cc saws are much more limited by displacement and 90cc saws will bust through almost anything. Under most other situations, like bucking less 18" D logs or limbing, the muffler difference isn't as noticeable, except it sounds awesome and (with hearing protection) it makes using the saw for work, more enjoyable. Did I say "work is enjoyable"? Yeah, these mufflers are fun too.
I have a clone of the older 660 and cut several tanks with stock plate then added the wcs bark box and clutch cover and have noticed more torque and chain speed in large oak and southern poplars; I tuned the saw both times to the the peak of each setup
Why do most (all that I have seen) muffler mod covers send the hot exhaust back onto the bar or straight back into your face when milling? When milling with an Alaskan mill with either of the two you show the exhaust hits the log and comes right back into your face. It also heats the mill and makes it hard to hold onto. Why can't they make one that addresses this issue? Send the hot exhaust "UP"!
You made sense about if you're going to race cut because all good hot saws are ported, that's where those exhaust prevail. On a stock saw however, I don't see a big enough difference to justify running them. A general muffler mod has a better advantage on a stock saw with less cost. Great video, thanks for your honesty 👍
I'm sure you know enough to know these are mtronic saws and they automatically compensate for restriction, altitude and temperature through the intake air charge. However, when you make this large of a change to either the intake or exhaust flow, the ecu doesn't have the ability to fully compensate for it. At least, not within a tank of fuels time. I've never been able to get one to fully compensate a large change like that. That is, unless you perform a factory reset. There's a simple reset procedure that takes the "learn" out of the ecu and allows it to make larger compensations in flow. They are fairly forgiving thankfully. I've never been able to max one out. I'd even recommend performing this procedure if all your were doing is cleaning or replacing a heavily soiled air filter. Just to speed the process up. That being sad, I can't promise you that the results you got would change all that drastically. Reason being, is different saws like different muffler designs. A 25% reduction between the overall circumference, or circumferences if you have a twin port design (older design) of the exhaust port window (at the cylinder wall, not at the flange) should put you in the ballpark of what size you need to make your overall muffler exit. Allowing an adequate amount of exhaust charge to remain inside the muffler body and exhaust runner, whilst still allowing that same charge to fully exit on the next stroke is the name of the game. I've found that multiple side exits, for most work saw applications provides both great flow, to rid the built pressure, and enough spent exhaust charge to pulse rearward. This is where you can either help or hurt performance. The manufacturers have a set decibel they have to be below and a set EPA standard exhaust hydrocarbon (ppm) they must be under at idle and whilst in the cut I believe. They design the engine around those standards, not around overall performance standards. So, you have some wiggle room to play with. With a front exit cover, there's too much of a straight shot, where all of your exhaust charge is going to flow straight out, and all you're left with is raw air. You can get away with a front ported cover, but only if there's enough deflection or restriction taking place to slow down that exhaust pulse. They used to make a factory twin ported muffler for the 460's. Look at one of those and you'll see what I mean. Those made a huge difference in the performance of those saws, as it complemented the stock side port, but still didn't "free flow". Back to the 25% reduction. Calculate what size exhaust window you have at the cylinder wall, reduce that size by 25% and that is your total you have to play with, no matter how many ports you want. You can drill holes in the muffler if you wanted, as long as the sum of those holes is no greater than 75% of the total exhaust window size. That's a good number to stick with on a stock saw. If you start playing with blow-down duration and port timing, you can play around a little with that number, but not on a otherwise stock top end. If you want to take it a step further, to complement that shiny exhaust cover, take about .5mm off the trailing side of your flywheel key (only the portion that is visible as it's sitting in the crank). If you grind the entire side of the key down, it allows it to rock ever so slightly, and it will shear eventually. After you take your material off the flywheel key rotate it counterclockwise to take up the slack while you have a piston stop in the head, and torque her down. Make sure you have a clean flywheel, and a clean crank. You want it to seize in place and not move once it's in place. If it moves, it will shear. After all is said and done, reset your ecu, and enjoy! To answer the question some of you are asking, yes the timing is controlled via the ecu. However, when you move the flywheel, you move what it believes is top dead center, so you move the entire timing curve. Don't overdue it. The flywheel should not move more than about the distance of half of the gap of the cooling fins. Assuming you don't have a degree wheel on hand. That's about 8-10 degrees, which is more than you'll want to go if you're using low grade fuel. In fact, if you're not running at least 91 octane, don't adjust the timing. It'll cause sporadic pre-ignition, especially when it's hot during a long cut and you'll cause issues you don't want to deal with, besides just loss of power. Cheers and happy cutting! I wouldn't recommend any type of modifications on any saw used for wood cutting! These recommendations are for test saws or race applications only.
I think these low restriction mufflers may increase power at maximum saw rpm, but reduce torque at lower speeds. In a real cut where you lean on it, the saw rpm drops to about 9000 rpm.
Torq is established with compression, so a muffler will not change it. I must admit, if you want it perfect, you need porting and exhaust work at the same time
Older video by the time I caught wind of the content, however, you are the same in character I'm sure. The way you were totally objective and unbiased in your review, makes you one of like 3 people I would subscribe to see in the future. My saws are an extension of my body when I'm in the elements of tree work; 26 years and counting. I run Stihl exclusively and wouldn't mind gaining a better advantage in regards to purchase, R&D, and literature should you be able to point me in the right direction. Thanks and good work.
Not hatin on this at all in anyway shape or form BUT hear me out. If thats a 661CM it has the Mtronic and it auto adjusts too stuff...so in other words maybe it acts better for the stock because thats what its used to? I could be 100% wrong but somethin i thought about it.
I thought that as well. It does hunt around all the time in the cut. So it’s adjusting constantly. I’m not sure how far the limit is for adjustment so with these muffler covers it could need more tune than the m-tronic can give it
Where i find a opened up muffler helpful, spooling up, or the crack, getting up to full RPM quickly. Limbing is much easier when the saw doesn't lag or hesitate getting to full RPM. If I should gain some power in the cut, i consider that a bonus.
Personally I lile the barkbox I think it is more refined than Egans straightshot. I also think egan copied the barkbox a bit. Great video none the less, and I see you got that cracked case 661 👌👌 runs great with that max flow
I got a ms 362c with a bark box and it really woke it up it can stay with a ms 400c with a bark box and I put the stock back on and it can't keep up with 400 so I believe that the bark box is worth it
I think that was pretty fair but a stickler might argue that if you didn't replace the chain with another factory chain when you switched brands then it's a tad unfair to WCS.
It's not just the faster cut but the added torgue and power that especially in hardwood makes a huge difference and less bogging down, saw all round performs better with the ESS and air filter in Australian hardwood and large dead wood.
I love the video. The stock cover was designed by Germans who are perfectionists when it comes to designing performance out of the box. But ultimately we are goofy Americans who love taking the mufflers off of everything.
Most of my saws are ported, higher compression, and a couple are over bored. I open up the mufflers a little to help them flow better. Some people will throw a bark box on stock saw and expect magic.
I think they kill torque. In a perfect cut they might be faster but like you said. Real world no. Redbull661 did a test of a bunch of different side deflected exit muffler mods and they all improved. The front cover exhausts kill torque
A few points: 1. I wonder if the stock cover retains more torque for running the bigger bar and dogging in? 2. Is the stock cover a single port or a double on you 661? I've thought about getting either for my bigger felling saw but Im with you the added noise offsets the power gains. I have a dual port on my 461 but maybe I need to slap the single port back on it and see if I am losing some torque not using the stock muffler. Good stuff either way. Keep it up.
I did my research and I ead that having a dual port is good for your saw. not heating up as much, less fuel consumption, more torque and longevity of the saw. now are these actually measurable test results. or are they not. not sure. I used a stihl 461 with a dual port, then I got a 500i with stock muffler cover. the 500i cut 3 to 1 blocks of firewood over the 461. the fir was pretty uniform as well not a spire point. so I got the 500 ported and I found it ran better. I git a second 500i and put a bark box on it. I notice its loud but performance not all different than just a dual ported muffler. is there a test like this you could do. instead of just time in the cut. maybe also which is better for 32" and larger snd 24" and under classic as well. something like that anyhow
Great video! Just stumbled across your channel comparing exhaust options for my 500i! Productivity aside, because the benefits seem inconsequential, do you feel the Bark box and straight shot help with overall reductions in temperature? I cut and sell firewood, so lots of continuous cutting at WOT and temperature’s definitely come into play. Thanks!
I have a Straight Shot on my 462. It's loud and it pulls a 28 and 32 inch better bucking red-white oak burried bar deep. Jason has dyno sheets from Dyno Joe that shows hp and tourqe increases. I got a 661 ordered and will be adding a Straight Shot to it also. These stock muffler's is so restricted for EPA mandated emissions that manufacturers has to meet. Proven dyno pulls and cooler running temps can't be argued with.
Mr @TheDurbinCompound, I apologize for not being succinct in my last attempt at asking you this, and hoping to get a reply from you-- I know you like WCS, I do too (kinda) - but I'm making an exhaust-performance "summary" video right now, "putting together" the last of it (will come back w/ the URL once it's up later today!) and am using some of your (awesome) numbers from this video, HOWEVER I'm still eager to hear your opinion/thoughts/conclusions on the results you got! For instance, I am NOT even a lil surprised at the results, and if we ignore the impracticality of hearing/decibels and only performance then we see precisely what should be expected: Less restrictive muffler, especially frontal-restriction (front-of the path of the exhaust-pulse, IE in-line with your exhaust-port) will reduce restriction of the exhaust-system (duh) and, in doing so, this means your saw will FOR SURE: piss-rev(no-load RPM) a lil higher, as well as run cooler than A CHOKED-UP, EPA-COMPLIANT front-cover does (again, 'duh', right?) However, because of the insanely-high amount of atmospheric-dilution of charge in the exh.system, "higher power requirements" like actually doing real cuts, you'll see a REDUCTION in power from any "hole in the front" 660/etc covers, hell @TreeMonkey / @Scott Kunz and @Redbull661 already figured this out in their 660 exit-portage tests, anyways it's saddened me to see companies MISLEAD people by showing dyno-results of no-load (or light-load) tests, when what people CARE about is real-world power not no-load power (which these covers DO boost, which is why "it feels stronger" because you're able to discern throttle response and the no-load RPM spike more-than you'd ever notice a subtle 3% torque gain) Sad seeing any companies do it but am especially saddened seeing Stihl themselves making this product, theirs has a smaller front-exit but it's still a "front-cover only" mod and I think it's fair to surmise WHY that is- easier installation means more people will go for it/buy them, simple as that. Sad, when it's KNOWN that adding a hole to the side, whether it's increasing the size of the OEM primary or putting another hole on the opposing side-wall, these types of moves still give you the "throughput"/breathability to ensure no restriction & optimized cooling of the engine WITHOUT inducing unnecessary atmospheric-dilution in the exhaust system(which doesn't show on piss-revs, or even on lil 10" logs like you did on your 2nd test here - no surprise that a front-cover hole will win on no-load or LIGHT-load comparisons, but for these saws those are nonsense comparisons you need at least 20" of real wood and proper real-world pressure, like on your test#1, THAT was a beautiful example of how these covers are actually inferior to a generic OEM, which makes these front-cover products especially sad because that means that you're better off simply drilling a ~1/3" hole into the un-touched (PTO) side of the muffler, which'd be free and take 10min (clean that thing 100.0% before use!), instead of spending nearly a $hundo to get one of these sexy stainless faceplates shipped to you :/ Thanks a ton for the content you post, you've got a cool setup, smart approaches and top it off w/ outstanding "production value", I hope my 'critique' of the "exhaust theory" here is not in ANY way taken as a jab at you, frankly I think you did a HUGE service here by showing these covers falter compared to an EPA-compliant OEM if in real-world conditions and frankly I'm just sick, as a consumer, of being misled, of being shown/told "X% power-boost1!1" on a product that actually LOWERS power in the cut, but you find that out after you've paid money & gone half-deaf (and, once invested in it, most tend to "double down" and'll just convince themselves it works....if I'm being "blindly honest" here, in-hopes you take this 100% genuinely because I do have high respect for you & what you do (&how you do it), but it seems like even you, at the end, are kinda cow-towing for WCS, "If you're just cutting with friends then yeah it's a fine choice", I don't think you truly believe that- in fact, from my experiences, when friends are cutting together they're leaning-into / over-pressuring their bar WAY more & more-often than when sawing alone, I know I do & have to consciously remind myself "Chain-speed....chain-speed....chain-speed" lol! Again thanks as always, +1'd and again all thoughts here are with the highest respect, I sincerely apologize if any is taken as being pejorative or malicious as not 1 iota was intended as such (and this is a hard topic, it'd be unfair for me not to mention how many others you're 100.000% on, I literally went and ordered a pair of customchainsawparts' 660 sleds just minutes after seeing your review, and it's not like I don't have prior experience ordering from them as I do, but YOUR pitch sold me on something I'd already decided-against....so yeah thanks a lot for that one because you've literally made my pair better, in the past 30 days, lol!!
It’s funny how the placebo effect works! So many times I see “modifications” that really don’t do anything to affect real world factors. I have had many arguments with people that say these mods make you more productive. I just have to shake my head! Let’s say these mods really do give you a faster cut than the stock saw. If you save 5 seconds per cut, you don’t save a lot of time in the day!! How would it make me more productive…… You are right, I am a WCS fan. I think he makes some nice stuff and I like the fit and finish of his parts! It doesn’t really make my saw faster in the cut, and I know that. It’s all technique. I compete every year in a saw fest where I spank everyone with a sharp chain and keeping my chain speed up. Not using any modification except running my saw a little lean for that one cut. I haven’t been beat by ported saws or even race saws. The operator thinks that because they create “more power” they can push it harder. We know that causes slower chain speed and a slower cut, letting me scoot right on by with less power! I appreciate your comment and there will be more content to come that we can discuss!
Another great video, I'll say one suggestion! -Do this exact test but with your 462. Compare results, etc. I wonder if percentage gains are around the same with the smaller displacement saw. I totally agree with your opinion on they are just to loud! Great videos buddy!
Yeah buddy! I will eventually test with the 462. Tests cost money and take time to get stuff together for them. You will see it in the future, I’m sure!
Good effort man😉👍 Cool that you recorded piston and muffler temps, the Egan really makes a world of difference in getting rid of the heat👍 Just curious if you sharpened the chain on the 28” after the stock cut? Thanks
I think it’s a pretty fair test mate,I think the different mufflers would probably better suited if maybe it was ported etc,but to run it every day I don’t think so.this is why they have saws with more power .
4mo later I come across this again and can only say my conviction in my comments is much stronger, it bothers me because this would basically mean that these "open dump" muffler mods (whether it's via swapping faceplates, or boring a 1" hole into your faceplate yourself-- unless we're gonna see assertions that the deflector is doing some magic which I promise it's not, not beyond 'deflecting' lol which is nice but is all it does) The reality is that these faceplates SHOULD lose to OEM, 2-strokes rely upon expansion chambers for proper performance (exp.chambers, and the addition of silica's to alum., are the 2 biggest factors in boosting racing 2-strokes over the past half-century) So yeah the lawn equipment 2-strokes like chainsaws, w/o any expansion chamber at all, they are - to put it mildly - they're finicky when it comes to their mufflers. These faceplate replacements, while fancy-looking, are effectively operating on the idea that "no muffler is an optimum" and seek to negate it, especially that straight-shot one that has a 1"+ hole literally in-line with the exhaust-pulse from the exhaust-flange (which *should* be assisting in cylinder scavenging for the next ignition) Further there's the watering-down of the next charge, as the cylinder re-uptakes from the muffler during a brief point of its stroke and it *usually* pulls in a mix of burnt exhaust charge, and fresh "spilled" charge, but w/ these faceplates you're mixing atmosphere in and diluting this as well. Results? Should increase trigger/throttle responsiveness and speed to max-RPM when no-load (or light-load) but absolutely destroy power on anything real. Both Jennings' & Blair's books make points to mention that, for muffler escape sizing, that going too-large is very bad and that too-small isn't so worrisome, IE you're far better at 80% of the optimum than at 105%, and the figures for muffler-exit sizing I've seen are on the order of 50-75% of exhaust-flange, which is barely around 1" on 660's (1.2x.75ish exhaust flange if un-ported), so hearing these covers introduce exits of .8" and >1" just further explains why they *shouldn't* work... IF you use a proper baffle 'sandwiched', I mean a whole baffle wall to effectively make 'front & back portions' of the muffler, you could use one and greatly increase power (but still not as much as a flat front wall, the 660/661 mufflers are great in that the charge can come down&sideways and 'bloom'/bounce back at the exhaust flange en route to the primary OEM exit....if/when modifying this muffler, your best bet is simply over-sizing this hole, because it still allows the exhaust pulse to utilize that whole big can, expand, shoot around&back&past the exhaust flange on-way to that upper crank-side OEM hole, because it *has to* if you keep that the only hole, but you can go and double its size and thus alleviate "EPA-imposed choking", you can "have your cake & eat it, too" if you're the type that's using open-dump mufflers, they are genuinely the worst idea I am blown away they're sold (aesthetics? They look great..)
2 strokes need a certain amount of back pressure to run properly. They also need a certain amount of inlet resistance. Mess with either to much, and kaboom.
Great analysis. What I see from this is, If you really want to improve performance for productivity, definitely just skip a simpler muffler mod and just go straight a full-on woods port from a reputable saw builder.
I open up the existing outlet and remove baffle. This will give you about 15% gain, and the saw will still be usable for everyday work, and best of all it's free. I agree there is no reason to spend the money on these covers, they do look well made though.
Just curious if you’ve ever tested the WCS port exhaust for the ms 200T, I’m looking at getting a bark box for my old 066 so I wanna dress up my wicked 200 T while I’m at it,3 point dogs as well. Wish they made a box for my old 038 magnum 2 but no such luck. Hello from British Columbia 🇨🇦
I enjoyed your video ....I found on my 660and my 066 that with a 20 inch bar I go to a bigger sprocket that's where I gained a ton of speed I also know my own muffler mod I use alot more fuel bc I turn my screws out almost a turn my saw runs cooler.....the bark box I don't see how a bark box has much back pressure I mod mine down low so that the exhaust bounces back for pressure but hey I'm a old go-kart racer I have a 2100 with a tuned pipe and that's a forty percent HP gain but who can use a saw with a big pipe .....long pipes resonate sound waves .....I suggest you thro tinmans homemade short pipe in this race....I love the look of a bark box but tme it's bling I get better results with a drill bit and a little 20 inch bar you need a bigger sprocket on a big saw .....my 60 cc 311 junk with two holes in the muffler is faster than my 660 up to a 20 inch log and I run a 24 bar on 311 ,,,,,on that size log I'd put my 460 and my 461 against the bigger saws .....the big saws use tourque and 70cc is the fast cutters up to a certain log then a big saw walks away on a big log .....your cutting a small log with a big saw and a small bar and I bet a 7 pin .......but what do I know I own 30 classic husky and sthil and my 3120 is no speed demon but a torque monster ......but hey us saw guys can we agree great hobby we love them we love to debate ......what if I said I HV a homemade saw that puts out 19 HP on Dyno and can cut all day would you call me a liar? I thought about marketing them .....won't tell you the secret but no sthil no husky and it lives in real world cutting .....I'll make a video of it if I think it will get views
I love how the egan straight shot sounds & performs. I love how the wcs bark box looks but don't like the sound as much. I would like someone to make a gnarly header for it and somehow make it sound cammed to get a hot rod sound. Then i dont care if it cuts or not lol
More throttle response doesn’t necessarily mean faster cutting. Take a dirt bike for example with baffles in vs out. Top end is faster with baffles in but more torque or throttle response with less back pressure and baffles out. Thinking similar here. Designed to run a certain rpm optimal with the back pressure that’s stock. Great comparison
Now that’s an honest video. I was about to get the straight shot. I just cut firewood for the house. I’m gonna stick with the stock muffler. Thanks for your honesty!
One thing not covered in this vid is fuel mileage. If you're stopping to refuel more often, then you're not saving any time over the course of the workday. Great comparison!
You are with a 500I. Muffler modded a bit of saving, build, significantly more. I’ve build both.
I believe the stock out performs in real world because instead of straight cut you are dogging and loading the saw up more… this means you drop rpm and rely on torque and smaller port with higher velocity always equates to more mid to low end torque. Great video man
I know this was 2 years ago. I think it's valid to point out that the after market mufflers most likely each require a custom tuning to balance out the change in exhaust flow. IMO, this test only showed the advantage a tuned muffler/engine combo can make. If you redid this, tuning for each muffler before you run, then I believe you'll find more value in the results as they'll each be running as intended.
661 is MTronic. Adjusts automatically.
@Mr_Clean yeah you can’t reason with anyone on the internet. It tunes it fast and is ready to go half way through your first cut.
I'm not so sure about that, from all I have read M-Tronic V3.0 still requires the reset when making a larger change such as porting, open pipes, covers, etc. You could be right and I could be wrong. It would be nice if you did this video again with resets recorded before each pipe cover used. Also try it with the air cleaner spit back baffle in and out. This would shut us all up on the topic once and for all LOL!!
@@jamesdepalma6341You’re absolutely right about the porting part, but the M-tronic system doesn’t require a recalibration for muffler and air filter modifications. The only time a saw should need a recalibration is if there is a substantial and sudden change in temperature or elevation.
You answered my questions, I was stuck with my options. Sticking with thee stock. With respect. Great video with the honesty. " 🙏 ".
i wonder if results would be differant if did a carb reset. maybe just swapping cover and running a few cuts isnt enough time for the m-tronic to do its adjusting and get peak performance from them?
Just what I want to say. Did chainsaw reset ?
Well done. Were the saws run through the autotune sequence between the different muffler configurations.
It would be interesting to run the test with both a 8 pin and a 7 pin rim as that might reflect in the results if the torque profile of the engine was changed.
Great job on the testing! I just got an Egan straight shot for my 661 and can’t wait to fire it up. Thanks again and keep up the great work on the channel.
Appreciate your comment! Thanks for being along for the ride!
Very interesting! I was looking at getting one of these but if in a real world scenario its not only slower but loud as hell I think i'll give it a pass haha. Fairplay nice scientific approach here.
I like the idea of getting maximum air flow while running the stock exhaust. Seems like those cool looking add-ons are a moot point while increasing air flow is better for engine longevity.
Here's what you do, you keep the original cover for working and you buy the other two mod covers to impress friends and annoy the neighbors within a five mile radius!
* Good and honest test video 👍
True story
I just put 3 tanks through my 462 with the bark box. Its seems like it has more torque. It definitely sounds meaner now. I'm curious to see everyone else's experience ⬇️
Your brain is torqued from the sound.
@@paulallen3639 its easy to fool the undiscerning with noise
Ya it's easy to be ignorant too, if you open up the exhaust and add fuel clearly you'd be a dam moron if you didn't think the saw won't have more power 🤣
I used 500i with a bark box with no ear muffs and I thought I lost my hearing for good
Exactly
The aftermarket mufflers will always be crap unless the cylinder is ported . They work together....
Any muffler with an increased outlet on these newer saws with small outlets will seriously drop exhaust temps and save top end life
One of the most honest reviews I have seen on these modifications. Great idea how you weighted the saw.
Honestly if it was to be scientific we would have to remove the human altogether and he could have used a stopwatch shown on the screen. 😎✌️Still fun tho.
Wow, what a great test! Numbers don’t lie. Very well executed sir!
I don't think it was your methodology I think that was spot-on (like your bars-comparison video, you did more-than most do!!), I also think you misunderstand their claim because I've only seen their "best-of" HP comparison sheet and it doesn't say "in the cut"....I'm not surprised *at all* that an OEM could outperform it in certain conditions (conditions of, say, frozen/larger woods), and that the open-shot coverS are going to rev outta cut (or in small wood) better, but we of course care about in-the-cut, hard-wood cutting not free-revving or 6" logs w/ a 660....IMO the problem is these covers are just negating the performance benefits of a muffler, "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" by effectively negating the muffler by open-hole'ing the thing. I'll make a video once I've tweaked mine but I actually use a front exit similar enough to these, however I have a "baffle plate" of sorts sandwiched in between that forces the exhaust pulse to shoot right back to the exhaust flange (it's a curved plate) so the back-pressure, scavenging, *and* final muffler-escape-portage are all optimized, letting you get more power w/o the noise and w/o the fuel waste (I can only imagine the piss stream of fuel coming from the bottom of one of those boxes' exits, must just puddle down to the crankcase below :P )
They are good exit-plates, for sure, but the muffler needs a baffle, I know OEM-baffles are notoriously over-choked and one of the reasons is EPA but in a no-EPA world there would still be baffles because there's no room for tuning long-pipes so you have work 'in a box' :P
Awesome, unbiased, comparison. I dont think it can be done any better, and the numbers dont lye. Myself I've discovered that instead of a dual port or some 3 port mufflers a single large port works much better on the saws I've ported. Kind of like a 3 inch exhaust on a car flows better than dual 2 inch. Less surface area and boundary layer I think. Great video I loved it. Thanks.
My only issue with Jason's is its only 10 bucks less than the bark box I got and the bark box does shoot the exhaust a bit vertical and away from my sweet ubreadable blackened serial number.
My 661 has an autotune function. You needed to recalibrate the saw for each cover for accurate results.
Well made, I learned a great deal from your research and testing. Thank you, Arborist in PA.
I disagree with about the bark box I put one on my 440 and my 460 magnum and it made both those saws really work good for stock saws , then I ported them both and I'll tell you wow !!! Now I'm a husqvarna guy and I bought the new 500i and I put a bark box on that saw stock and again wow I'm not worried about loudness the performance is worth the money in my opinion .
Great video, you earned a subscriber. It would be interesting to test these in a chainsaw milling application; long bars and wide/long cuts. I'd imagine torque would be a bigger factor than HP, but the long cut times would be telling. 17% off a 5 or 10 minute cut could be huge. Lower temps could be really beneficial as well.
Good point! That’s where you save the time! The torque is obviously improved because we couldn’t even get them to out cut the stock cover until we put an 8pin on it.
My old ms360 , 20 inch bar , oiler turned all the way up since new and every tank of gas is 3/4 tank of oil used . It cuts 30 inch maple rounds in seconds. Once the ring’s seated it became a beast vrs weight for hours of cutting. I cut a lot of wood on a new chain before it’s first grind.
This is interesting but what about a temperature comparison of all 3.
That’s the results I’m after, which one gets the heat out the best .
Straight shot takes the most heat out of the engine because of its larger opening. But man is it loud. I run one on my 500i and it’ll wake the dead!
So what you’re telling me is that the engineers who spend millions of dollars per year on R&D combined with decades of data actually know what they’re doing?? Great video. I love indisputable data!
Haha 😆 .... amazing all the peeps that think that are smarter/more clever than the engineers at Stuttgart and Stockholm ! Looks like they’re not
The only reason engineers get a bad name is in general they are constrained by budgets or regulations. Anyone who has ever designed something for production will happily tell you it could be much better if optimized for performance and or reliability only.
Sir, truer words never spoken, the major saw manufactures are good at what they do, competition keeps them on their toes! Now if you want to hand finish parts and tinker with the mechanics of these saws, then you can help them a little, but over all they are what they are.
maybe you didn't watch the whole thing
indoors, trying to be scientific, stock was slower
outdoors, in varying diameters, with bark inclusions, stock was faster.
Yep! So where it counts (out in the environment cutting wood) it’s faster and quieter. These enhancements help with things like cylinder temp and flow, but ultimately they don’t make you more productive, whatsoever.
Stock cover won? Almost like the stock cover had millions of $ of engineering behind it or somthing hahahah I think the aftermarket covers need some tuning to really shine since you are changing the exhaust pressures. Great vid.
the ecu must take time to tune into it like when you start running the 500i new.
This made me laugh
Those engineers have it down
@Makin Shooties yeah that's what I was trying to say with by needs tuning.
@@Nathan-hd6lp yeah that's what I was trying to say with needs tuning.
You know you can only be as fair as you passed and people say you cheated you did the test wrong you have a favor as long as you can honestly say you did your best a doing it right I'm happy about that Just do what you want to do and get back Your pack out your power tools I'll keep watching Something about you makes it you're doing the best test you can explaining what you know in your knowledge 👍🏽🍻🍺👍🏼
Did you jet/ tune to each muffler! If it’s jetted for stock of course it will run better!
Hey Devin great video! Great idea taking off the dogs lol. Hope to see you at the next gathering!
So many of these add-ons are just bling when all is said and done. So much like fishing-lures, they catch more fishermen than fish.
Not about bling lol it's about getting as much heat out the engine as possible wich will help your saw not overheat. I do Alaskan milling so my saws get hot wich can kill a saw.
I run double ear pro on a 290. Thanks for getting the noise info out.
I have one of Jason's on my 462 and yes its loud but sounds like a beast. I would recommend his product.
Literally just borrowing my buddies ms461 with a wcs and just searched to see how different stock versus the bark box sound and wound up on this great informational video 😂👍
imo, you did a very fair test. enjoyed the video...thumbs up !!
Now that the stock cuts fastest according to this test I just want the loudest can we do a DB TEST
Double hearing protection absolutely necessary - special moulded fitted ear plugs and grad 5 muffs. I have a Stihl MS 460 with a bark box and running square ground chain, the combination is very very impressive. its a light sabre ... not so fast on the 660, but helpful. You just don't have to work so hard, but when you have to cut wood the chips are long and it throws them a way. For me its made a big difference, especially on a hot day.
I'm considering a bark box for my MS460 🤔
I've had 3 460s ... but the one with the bark box and max flow is close to my 500i and a favourite.... make sure you have double ear protection roll plugs and grad 5 muffs asits fearsome noisy..l run square ground on a 24" bar
I fall production timber in the PNW and literally everyone runs a muffler modded saw all day on top of it being port and polish 😅 good video tho I do like the take. Been a WCS user for a minute trying out the straight shot today to mix it up
What he said
Do you have a RUclips channel?
I agree with doing this again and checking temps.
Also the Egan sounded like it was revving higher because it was lean and eventually burn of the saw!!! No Four Stroking Sound to it at all.
Run again, Check Temps and set RPM's the same. Four Stroking will save your saws.
thanks for the video. If we think for one minute that the major manufacturers didn't use multiple designs to optimize the saw's performance then we are mistaken. In the search to grab every part of a horse power the competition is harsh, and we must consider back pressure as one of the primary drivers of the design... No, unless it's a tuned pipe, I think that the manufacturers will do better than and after market producer.
Love that Jarhead flag out front!!! Just ordered a BB for my 500i. Will let you know what I think. Great video.
What do you think
Doesn't the chain type and the grind determine the speed of the cut, not the muffler?
Best fair test I’ve ever seen!
Marine dragon gunner from back in the day, can't hear much now so I'm good with the stock !
even if you dont gain any speed in the cut. a big thing mufflers help with is throttle response and temps. your saw will last longer since its cooler. your right though for a guy who cuts firewood on the weekends its not really worth it but i cut big stumps at work all the time after we take a a tree and it helps id say. it really woke up the 500i for sure. my boss hasnt gotten one for are 661. made a big difference on the 461 too. i wanna try one for the 400c we just got too and see what that does i really like that saw its light and still pulls good.
My experience after two years (Bark Box in my case)... I used it on a 400, great saw but fades a little in the heaviest work.
When burrying a 20" bar in a big stump or bucking over 20" D logs, the stock cover sucks and the muffler helps it snort its way through. I think the torque benefit matters more here than the HP or speed.
I went back and forth between stock and the muffler mod, and finally settled on the muffler mod. That little bit really does help extend the saws capability.
It matters in the do-it-all size saws, like 60 to 80cc. 50cc saws are much more limited by displacement and 90cc saws will bust through almost anything.
Under most other situations, like bucking less 18" D logs or limbing, the muffler difference isn't as noticeable, except it sounds awesome and (with hearing protection) it makes using the saw for work, more enjoyable.
Did I say "work is enjoyable"? Yeah, these mufflers are fun too.
I have a clone of the older 660 and cut several tanks with stock plate then added the wcs bark box and clutch cover and have noticed more torque and chain speed in large oak and southern poplars; I tuned the saw both times to the the peak of each setup
Why do most (all that I have seen) muffler mod covers send the hot exhaust back onto the bar or straight back into your face when milling?
When milling with an Alaskan mill with either of the two you show the exhaust hits the log and comes right back into your face. It also heats the mill and makes it hard to hold onto.
Why can't they make one that addresses this issue? Send the hot exhaust "UP"!
Back in the day when I was into dirt bikes, two strokes had to have a little back pressure to get max power, four strokes not so much.
Nice job and good information. Keep up the great work my man ! 👍
I caught a lot of grief over this same test and got the same results, love the video keep it up
You made sense about if you're going to race cut because all good hot saws are ported, that's where those exhaust prevail. On a stock saw however, I don't see a big enough difference to justify running them. A general muffler mod has a better advantage on a stock saw with less cost. Great video, thanks for your honesty 👍
Yep I reckon the 462 takes advantage of a muffler mod better than most.
I really enjoyed the sound on the barkbox, it was like a GT3 hitting that 10k rev limiter!
I'm sure you know enough to know these are mtronic saws and they automatically compensate for restriction, altitude and temperature through the intake air charge. However, when you make this large of a change to either the intake or exhaust flow, the ecu doesn't have the ability to fully compensate for it. At least, not within a tank of fuels time. I've never been able to get one to fully compensate a large change like that. That is, unless you perform a factory reset. There's a simple reset procedure that takes the "learn" out of the ecu and allows it to make larger compensations in flow. They are fairly forgiving thankfully. I've never been able to max one out. I'd even recommend performing this procedure if all your were doing is cleaning or replacing a heavily soiled air filter. Just to speed the process up. That being sad, I can't promise you that the results you got would change all that drastically. Reason being, is different saws like different muffler designs. A 25% reduction between the overall circumference, or circumferences if you have a twin port design (older design) of the exhaust port window (at the cylinder wall, not at the flange) should put you in the ballpark of what size you need to make your overall muffler exit. Allowing an adequate amount of exhaust charge to remain inside the muffler body and exhaust runner, whilst still allowing that same charge to fully exit on the next stroke is the name of the game. I've found that multiple side exits, for most work saw applications provides both great flow, to rid the built pressure, and enough spent exhaust charge to pulse rearward. This is where you can either help or hurt performance. The manufacturers have a set decibel they have to be below and a set EPA standard exhaust hydrocarbon (ppm) they must be under at idle and whilst in the cut I believe. They design the engine around those standards, not around overall performance standards. So, you have some wiggle room to play with. With a front exit cover, there's too much of a straight shot, where all of your exhaust charge is going to flow straight out, and all you're left with is raw air. You can get away with a front ported cover, but only if there's enough deflection or restriction taking place to slow down that exhaust pulse. They used to make a factory twin ported muffler for the 460's. Look at one of those and you'll see what I mean. Those made a huge difference in the performance of those saws, as it complemented the stock side port, but still didn't "free flow". Back to the 25% reduction. Calculate what size exhaust window you have at the cylinder wall, reduce that size by 25% and that is your total you have to play with, no matter how many ports you want. You can drill holes in the muffler if you wanted, as long as the sum of those holes is no greater than 75% of the total exhaust window size. That's a good number to stick with on a stock saw. If you start playing with blow-down duration and port timing, you can play around a little with that number, but not on a otherwise stock top end. If you want to take it a step further, to complement that shiny exhaust cover, take about .5mm off the trailing side of your flywheel key (only the portion that is visible as it's sitting in the crank). If you grind the entire side of the key down, it allows it to rock ever so slightly, and it will shear eventually. After you take your material off the flywheel key rotate it counterclockwise to take up the slack while you have a piston stop in the head, and torque her down. Make sure you have a clean flywheel, and a clean crank. You want it to seize in place and not move once it's in place. If it moves, it will shear. After all is said and done, reset your ecu, and enjoy! To answer the question some of you are asking, yes the timing is controlled via the ecu. However, when you move the flywheel, you move what it believes is top dead center, so you move the entire timing curve. Don't overdue it. The flywheel should not move more than about the distance of half of the gap of the cooling fins. Assuming you don't have a degree wheel on hand. That's about 8-10 degrees, which is more than you'll want to go if you're using low grade fuel. In fact, if you're not running at least 91 octane, don't adjust the timing. It'll cause sporadic pre-ignition, especially when it's hot during a long cut and you'll cause issues you don't want to deal with, besides just loss of power. Cheers and happy cutting! I wouldn't recommend any type of modifications on any saw used for wood cutting! These recommendations are for test saws or race applications only.
new subscriber...such an honest review and very interesting points made...
I think these low restriction mufflers may increase power at maximum saw rpm, but reduce torque at lower speeds. In a real cut where you lean on it, the saw rpm drops to about 9000 rpm.
Torq is established with compression, so a muffler will not change it. I must admit, if you want it perfect, you need porting and exhaust work at the same time
Older video by the time I caught wind of the content, however, you are the same in character I'm sure. The way you were totally objective and unbiased in your review, makes you one of like 3 people I would subscribe to see in the future. My saws are an extension of my body when I'm in the elements of tree work; 26 years and counting. I run Stihl exclusively and wouldn't mind gaining a better advantage in regards to purchase, R&D, and literature should you be able to point me in the right direction. Thanks and good work.
At the age I am at and the amount of hearing loss I have, I wish I had worn more hearing protection from the start🥺
What?
@@paulhare662 🤣
Not hatin on this at all in anyway shape or form BUT hear me out. If thats a 661CM it has the Mtronic and it auto adjusts too stuff...so in other words maybe it acts better for the stock because thats what its used to? I could be 100% wrong but somethin i thought about it.
I thought that as well. It does hunt around all the time in the cut. So it’s adjusting constantly. I’m not sure how far the limit is for adjustment so with these muffler covers it could need more tune than the m-tronic can give it
I appreciate this video good stuff I've been interested in both and a lot of great points one thing they have in common is quality
Where i find a opened up muffler helpful, spooling up, or the crack, getting up to full RPM quickly. Limbing is much easier when the saw doesn't lag or hesitate getting to full RPM. If I should gain some power in the cut, i consider that a bonus.
Surely swapping them so quick gives the saw no time to adjust the mtronic enough to make it a fair test?
If you put an open muffler on, You need to re tune the saw. It's running lean...
Personally I lile the barkbox I think it is more refined than Egans straightshot. I also think egan copied the barkbox a bit. Great video none the less, and I see you got that cracked case 661 👌👌 runs great with that max flow
Nice eye!
These style mufflers been on and off for a long long time. Jason may not be copying the muffler but he definitely put his sails to the same wind.
@@bucketheadrox well said!
I got a ms 362c with a bark box and it really woke it up it can stay with a ms 400c with a bark box and I put the stock back on and it can't keep up with 400 so I believe that the bark box is worth it
Great video. I actually just bought an Egan straight shot.
Thanks for the video from Davenport Iowa
I think that was pretty fair but a stickler might argue that if you didn't replace the chain with another factory chain when you switched brands then it's a tad unfair to WCS.
do you need to adjust the carb with a barkbox richen it up a little
Exactly!!!!! If he didn’t touch the tune then he did nothing but make noise!
It's not just the faster cut but the added torgue and power that especially in hardwood makes a huge difference and less bogging down, saw all round performs better with the ESS and air filter in Australian hardwood and large dead wood.
I love the video. The stock cover was designed by Germans who are perfectionists when it comes to designing performance out of the box. But ultimately we are goofy Americans who love taking the mufflers off of everything.
Most of my saws are ported, higher compression, and a couple are over bored. I open up the mufflers a little to help them flow better.
Some people will throw a bark box on stock saw and expect magic.
I think they kill torque. In a perfect cut they might be faster but like you said. Real world no. Redbull661 did a test of a bunch of different side deflected exit muffler mods and they all improved. The front cover exhausts kill torque
Very nice unbiased comparison!..
A few points:
1. I wonder if the stock cover retains more torque for running the bigger bar and dogging in?
2. Is the stock cover a single port or a double on you 661?
I've thought about getting either for my bigger felling saw but Im with you the added noise offsets the power gains. I have a dual port on my 461 but maybe I need to slap the single port back on it and see if I am losing some torque not using the stock muffler.
Good stuff either way. Keep it up.
Well said at the end!!! If you have an opinion make it productive not an empty reproach without substantial facts to back it up.
I did my research and I ead that having a dual port is good for your saw. not heating up as much, less fuel consumption, more torque and longevity of the saw. now are these actually measurable test results. or are they not. not sure. I used a stihl 461 with a dual port, then I got a 500i with stock muffler cover. the 500i cut 3 to 1 blocks of firewood over the 461. the fir was pretty uniform as well not a spire point. so I got the 500 ported and I found it ran better. I git a second 500i and put a bark box on it. I notice its loud but performance not all different than just a dual ported muffler. is there a test like this you could do. instead of just time in the cut. maybe also which is better for 32" and larger snd 24" and under classic as well. something like that anyhow
What about effciency in engine chainsaw , it will increase to? or if saw will be cooler than stock? what about fuel consumption?
The only good thing I noticed was the saws ran cooler with these covers!
Your tests on the straight shot and bark box is right on wirh dyno Joe as far as dyno! Straight shot for the win!
Great video! Just stumbled across your channel comparing exhaust options for my 500i! Productivity aside, because the benefits seem inconsequential, do you feel the Bark box and straight shot help with overall reductions in temperature? I cut and sell firewood, so lots of continuous cutting at WOT and temperature’s definitely come into play. Thanks!
Yeah overall temp reduction but loud and annoying
I have a Straight Shot on my 462. It's loud and it pulls a 28 and 32 inch better bucking red-white oak burried bar deep. Jason has dyno sheets from Dyno Joe that shows hp and tourqe increases. I got a 661 ordered and will be adding a Straight Shot to it also. These stock muffler's is so restricted for EPA mandated emissions that manufacturers has to meet.
Proven dyno pulls and cooler running temps can't be argued with.
Mr @TheDurbinCompound, I apologize for not being succinct in my last attempt at asking you this, and hoping to get a reply from you-- I know you like WCS, I do too (kinda) - but I'm making an exhaust-performance "summary" video right now, "putting together" the last of it (will come back w/ the URL once it's up later today!) and am using some of your (awesome) numbers from this video, HOWEVER I'm still eager to hear your opinion/thoughts/conclusions on the results you got! For instance, I am NOT even a lil surprised at the results, and if we ignore the impracticality of hearing/decibels and only performance then we see precisely what should be expected: Less restrictive muffler, especially frontal-restriction (front-of the path of the exhaust-pulse, IE in-line with your exhaust-port) will reduce restriction of the exhaust-system (duh) and, in doing so, this means your saw will FOR SURE: piss-rev(no-load RPM) a lil higher, as well as run cooler than A CHOKED-UP, EPA-COMPLIANT front-cover does (again, 'duh', right?) However, because of the insanely-high amount of atmospheric-dilution of charge in the exh.system, "higher power requirements" like actually doing real cuts, you'll see a REDUCTION in power from any "hole in the front" 660/etc covers, hell @TreeMonkey / @Scott Kunz and @Redbull661 already figured this out in their 660 exit-portage tests, anyways it's saddened me to see companies MISLEAD people by showing dyno-results of no-load (or light-load) tests, when what people CARE about is real-world power not no-load power (which these covers DO boost, which is why "it feels stronger" because you're able to discern throttle response and the no-load RPM spike more-than you'd ever notice a subtle 3% torque gain) Sad seeing any companies do it but am especially saddened seeing Stihl themselves making this product, theirs has a smaller front-exit but it's still a "front-cover only" mod and I think it's fair to surmise WHY that is- easier installation means more people will go for it/buy them, simple as that. Sad, when it's KNOWN that adding a hole to the side, whether it's increasing the size of the OEM primary or putting another hole on the opposing side-wall, these types of moves still give you the "throughput"/breathability to ensure no restriction & optimized cooling of the engine WITHOUT inducing unnecessary atmospheric-dilution in the exhaust system(which doesn't show on piss-revs, or even on lil 10" logs like you did on your 2nd test here - no surprise that a front-cover hole will win on no-load or LIGHT-load comparisons, but for these saws those are nonsense comparisons you need at least 20" of real wood and proper real-world pressure, like on your test#1, THAT was a beautiful example of how these covers are actually inferior to a generic OEM, which makes these front-cover products especially sad because that means that you're better off simply drilling a ~1/3" hole into the un-touched (PTO) side of the muffler, which'd be free and take 10min (clean that thing 100.0% before use!), instead of spending nearly a $hundo to get one of these sexy stainless faceplates shipped to you :/
Thanks a ton for the content you post, you've got a cool setup, smart approaches and top it off w/ outstanding "production value", I hope my 'critique' of the "exhaust theory" here is not in ANY way taken as a jab at you, frankly I think you did a HUGE service here by showing these covers falter compared to an EPA-compliant OEM if in real-world conditions and frankly I'm just sick, as a consumer, of being misled, of being shown/told "X% power-boost1!1" on a product that actually LOWERS power in the cut, but you find that out after you've paid money & gone half-deaf (and, once invested in it, most tend to "double down" and'll just convince themselves it works....if I'm being "blindly honest" here, in-hopes you take this 100% genuinely because I do have high respect for you & what you do (&how you do it), but it seems like even you, at the end, are kinda cow-towing for WCS, "If you're just cutting with friends then yeah it's a fine choice", I don't think you truly believe that- in fact, from my experiences, when friends are cutting together they're leaning-into / over-pressuring their bar WAY more & more-often than when sawing alone, I know I do & have to consciously remind myself "Chain-speed....chain-speed....chain-speed" lol!
Again thanks as always, +1'd and again all thoughts here are with the highest respect, I sincerely apologize if any is taken as being pejorative or malicious as not 1 iota was intended as such (and this is a hard topic, it'd be unfair for me not to mention how many others you're 100.000% on, I literally went and ordered a pair of customchainsawparts' 660 sleds just minutes after seeing your review, and it's not like I don't have prior experience ordering from them as I do, but YOUR pitch sold me on something I'd already decided-against....so yeah thanks a lot for that one because you've literally made my pair better, in the past 30 days, lol!!
It’s funny how the placebo effect works! So many times I see “modifications” that really don’t do anything to affect real world factors. I have had many arguments with people that say these mods make you more productive. I just have to shake my head! Let’s say these mods really do give you a faster cut than the stock saw. If you save 5 seconds per cut, you don’t save a lot of time in the day!! How would it make me more productive……
You are right, I am a WCS fan. I think he makes some nice stuff and I like the fit and finish of his parts! It doesn’t really make my saw faster in the cut, and I know that. It’s all technique. I compete every year in a saw fest where I spank everyone with a sharp chain and keeping my chain speed up. Not using any modification except running my saw a little lean for that one cut. I haven’t been beat by ported saws or even race saws. The operator thinks that because they create “more power” they can push it harder. We know that causes slower chain speed and a slower cut, letting me scoot right on by with less power!
I appreciate your comment and there will be more content to come that we can discuss!
Did you tune the carburetor
Another great video, I'll say one suggestion!
-Do this exact test but with your 462. Compare results, etc. I wonder if percentage gains are around the same with the smaller displacement saw. I totally agree with your opinion on they are just to loud! Great videos buddy!
Yeah buddy! I will eventually test with the 462. Tests cost money and take time to get stuff together for them. You will see it in the future, I’m sure!
@@TheDurbinCompound Sweet! I understand time & money situation my RUclips channel isn't much because of it. You've got great videos buddy!
Thanks brother! Keep at it, it’s a long game!
Good effort man😉👍
Cool that you recorded piston and muffler temps, the Egan really makes a world of difference in getting rid of the heat👍
Just curious if you sharpened the chain on the 28” after the stock cut?
Thanks
I think it’s a pretty fair test mate,I think the different mufflers would probably better suited if maybe it was ported etc,but to run it every day I don’t think so.this is why they have saws with more power .
4mo later I come across this again and can only say my conviction in my comments is much stronger, it bothers me because this would basically mean that these "open dump" muffler mods (whether it's via swapping faceplates, or boring a 1" hole into your faceplate yourself-- unless we're gonna see assertions that the deflector is doing some magic which I promise it's not, not beyond 'deflecting' lol which is nice but is all it does) The reality is that these faceplates SHOULD lose to OEM, 2-strokes rely upon expansion chambers for proper performance (exp.chambers, and the addition of silica's to alum., are the 2 biggest factors in boosting racing 2-strokes over the past half-century) So yeah the lawn equipment 2-strokes like chainsaws, w/o any expansion chamber at all, they are - to put it mildly - they're finicky when it comes to their mufflers. These faceplate replacements, while fancy-looking, are effectively operating on the idea that "no muffler is an optimum" and seek to negate it, especially that straight-shot one that has a 1"+ hole literally in-line with the exhaust-pulse from the exhaust-flange (which *should* be assisting in cylinder scavenging for the next ignition) Further there's the watering-down of the next charge, as the cylinder re-uptakes from the muffler during a brief point of its stroke and it *usually* pulls in a mix of burnt exhaust charge, and fresh "spilled" charge, but w/ these faceplates you're mixing atmosphere in and diluting this as well.
Results? Should increase trigger/throttle responsiveness and speed to max-RPM when no-load (or light-load) but absolutely destroy power on anything real. Both Jennings' & Blair's books make points to mention that, for muffler escape sizing, that going too-large is very bad and that too-small isn't so worrisome, IE you're far better at 80% of the optimum than at 105%, and the figures for muffler-exit sizing I've seen are on the order of 50-75% of exhaust-flange, which is barely around 1" on 660's (1.2x.75ish exhaust flange if un-ported), so hearing these covers introduce exits of .8" and >1" just further explains why they *shouldn't* work...
IF you use a proper baffle 'sandwiched', I mean a whole baffle wall to effectively make 'front & back portions' of the muffler, you could use one and greatly increase power (but still not as much as a flat front wall, the 660/661 mufflers are great in that the charge can come down&sideways and 'bloom'/bounce back at the exhaust flange en route to the primary OEM exit....if/when modifying this muffler, your best bet is simply over-sizing this hole, because it still allows the exhaust pulse to utilize that whole big can, expand, shoot around&back&past the exhaust flange on-way to that upper crank-side OEM hole, because it *has to* if you keep that the only hole, but you can go and double its size and thus alleviate "EPA-imposed choking", you can "have your cake & eat it, too" if you're the type that's using open-dump mufflers, they are genuinely the worst idea I am blown away they're sold (aesthetics? They look great..)
to sum it up they suck
The stock muffler supplied the needed back pressure for efficient operation
I have a WCS bark box on my Stihl ms500i fuel injection. It’s runs & sounds GREAT with the 500i it automatically re calibrates.
Jason is the man! I have a 7900 from him that is amazing!
2 strokes need a certain amount of back pressure to run properly. They also need a certain amount of inlet resistance. Mess with either to much, and kaboom.
Where can the straight shots be purchased from?
By personally contacting Jason Egan on Facebook
They can be purchased directly here: eganperformancesaws.com
Great analysis. What I see from this is, If you really want to improve performance for productivity, definitely just skip a simpler muffler mod and just go straight a full-on woods port from a reputable saw builder.
I open up the existing outlet and remove baffle. This will give you about 15% gain, and the saw will still be usable for everyday work, and best of all it's free. I agree there is no reason to spend the money on these covers, they do look well made though.
That's what I do also. And I'll throw on a husky port on top if I feel like it most of the time
Just curious if you’ve ever tested the WCS port exhaust for the ms 200T, I’m looking at getting a bark box for my old 066 so I wanna dress up my wicked 200 T while I’m at it,3 point dogs as well. Wish they made a box for my old 038 magnum 2 but no such luck. Hello from British Columbia 🇨🇦
I have not tested any of the top handled stuff. I only own a 192TC
The WCS 200ts exhaust port helps quite a bit you can’t go wrong with buying anything from Gordy at WCS
I enjoyed your video ....I found on my 660and my 066 that with a 20 inch bar I go to a bigger sprocket that's where I gained a ton of speed I also know my own muffler mod I use alot more fuel bc I turn my screws out almost a turn my saw runs cooler.....the bark box I don't see how a bark box has much back pressure I mod mine down low so that the exhaust bounces back for pressure but hey I'm a old go-kart racer I have a 2100 with a tuned pipe and that's a forty percent HP gain but who can use a saw with a big pipe .....long pipes resonate sound waves .....I suggest you thro tinmans homemade short pipe in this race....I love the look of a bark box but tme it's bling I get better results with a drill bit and a little 20 inch bar you need a bigger sprocket on a big saw .....my 60 cc 311 junk with two holes in the muffler is faster than my 660 up to a 20 inch log and I run a 24 bar on 311 ,,,,,on that size log I'd put my 460 and my 461 against the bigger saws .....the big saws use tourque and 70cc is the fast cutters up to a certain log then a big saw walks away on a big log .....your cutting a small log with a big saw and a small bar and I bet a 7 pin .......but what do I know I own 30 classic husky and sthil and my 3120 is no speed demon but a torque monster ......but hey us saw guys can we agree great hobby we love them we love to debate
......what if I said I HV a homemade saw that puts out 19 HP on Dyno and can cut all day would you call me a liar? I thought about marketing them .....won't tell you the secret but no sthil no husky and it lives in real world cutting .....I'll make a video of it if I think it will get views
I love how the egan straight shot sounds & performs. I love how the wcs bark box looks but don't like the sound as much. I would like someone to make a gnarly header for it and somehow make it sound cammed to get a hot rod sound. Then i dont care if it cuts or not lol
Egan also makes muffler covers for a wider variety.
It came to mind, don't they need different tuning?
Hey man where did ya get the black handle cover side support? Thanks
More throttle response doesn’t necessarily mean faster cutting. Take a dirt bike for example with baffles in vs out. Top end is faster with baffles in but more torque or throttle response with less back pressure and baffles out. Thinking similar here. Designed to run a certain rpm optimal with the back pressure that’s stock. Great comparison
Great test and information. Did you tune the carb after each cover swap?
M-tronic saw. In previous testing, the m-tronic tuned the saw within a couple revs. Recalibrating the saw had no effect in power.