Modern history has often become politically correct history. Example: Lincoln’s war of northern aggression against the south, has been re-named “the civil war” Northerners and liberal media prefer reducing this northerners aggression to its lowest common denominator … …. Including politically correct history revision. CSA monuments have been removed and southern leaders have been demonized.
@@danlundgren262 I have a double major in History and English, and also taught both for five years before getting my masters in Counseling and spending the next 25 years working in a middle school in the inner city of Phoenix. Learning how to sugar coat the bitter pill of duration Getting to make it palatable and /or relevant for young minds is the real art of teaching! Getting kids to by in and forget that they are being skillfully entertained and taught at the same time is what we teachers always strive for! Steve would do well at this task !
This is such a dark peice of history within Mormonism. I have studied this a bit, and I was surprised to see my family name among those who murdered these men, women and children. I researched a little more and discovered that I'm related to this individual. This story is heartbreaking. To think that people could commit this horrific crime, especially a relative of mine. My grandma's uncle. He went on to live a happy life, raising a family and finally settling in Snowflake Arizona. As if it never happened. I have been to this place and I wept. I was born and raised in this church, and have heard various versions of this story. What these men did is unforgivable. Thank you for sharing. Subscribing to your channel.
This massacre of Arkansans led to our government pressuring Utah into statehood or get marched on. It got their little theocracy nipped in the bud, and they even had to change their doctrine. There is a lesson in sectarianism here though; as these Arkies were going from town to town picking Biblical debates - and that shouldn't cause a massacre, but it's not the first or last time that it has.
@@passiveaggressivenegotiato8087 Do research into what the Mormons went through before they ended up in Utah, and you'll find it is very likely that these 'Arkies' did say some derogatory things in a place they shouldn't have
There's no such thing as "Mormonism" or the "Mormon Church". This is only a nickname given to the church by its enemies.. And no, the theology was NOT crushed, or doctrine changed. This massacre was never condoned by the Church. In fact, President Young tried to prevent it, but they didn't get the message in time.
@@Ken-ej6sc Please stop with that stupid argument over using the phrase Mormonism or Mormon. All my years in the church, we were proud to be Mormon. Do you remember the I'm a Mormon campaign? Paid for by the church. Do you remember the church owned website with Mormon? If president Nelson wouldn't have changed it, you would be a proud Mormon. This argument is redicouls. I'm not changing just because one man said so.
I think to part of history but it will never be repeated so onward and forward with better focus and things to focus on. Unfortunately many do not understand by what leader this happened from, was clearly not Pres Young. Good comment n thanks for sharing.
I'm from the UK and have visited the site twice - it's easy to see why the wagon train stopped here, good grazing and water. I've read all the info boards BUT your video adds so much - THANK YOU. I find it difficult to accept people could do this to unarmed men let alone to women & children. And then the ultimate hypocrisy, taking surviving children and trying to indoctrinate them - No EXCUSES would bear humane or logical thought. Once again THANK YOU.
The Mormons claimed they had to ransom the children from Indians and billed the US $7000 in 1857, some $1 million today. Avg wage was about $1 day then. $2 was good. $5 big money. Esp in Mormon Utah, The Nation of Deseret, with 350,000 sq mi needed US money to expand its dream of empire.
I wouldn't have said that the "Children were taken in by local families" more like kidnapped by local families. Horrible, thanks for the history as always.
The terrain has changed dramatically due to a huge flood in the 1863. It barreled through and took out trees, changed drainages. John D. Lee lost a wife and two children to the flood and he was as far away from the meadow as Harmony. This is a very nice video.
It’s no coincidence really. Mormonism was originally an English territorial play on the continent. Ultimately globalist in nature. A fundamentalist religion is exactly what the king ordered.
Ah, an Englishman. Look up "The battle of Cowpens, SC. Also Francis Marion, The Swamp Fox. But don't be concerned, all is forgiven. Come visit. -A South Carolinian.
@@Bob-rd9vd Well THIS Englishman has done just that. I was specially interested in what happened around Ninety-Six, which was in itself an example of how complicated those times were. I first became aware of it in the book " Blue Highways" by William Least Heat-Moon which is well worth reading if you don't already know it. I have family, now in Georgia, who fought on the side of the new republic and my family in England were supporters of the ideas of fellow Englishman Thomas Paine.
As a Scot, I understand those days., but not the reason for the murders. But I understand the intent of the perpetrators, and do not forgive. 250 years, all passion spent. Those who know, understand.
Brit here. Did not know about this. Was expecting to read about an Indian attack and when I learned the truth the real horror of the massacre hit me. Thank you for educating me.
Read about this in school 50yrs ago, remembered the name. You showed me the site, memorials and filled in so many details. Thanks. I always thought it was horrendous even for the times but it was so much worse.
Man, your simple filming, music, and narration are becoming a lost art to me. I love the 1st person trail walking you have in all your videos. It's just aesthetically pleasing and educational documentary style filming. I've never heard of this massacre before, and because of you, I'll be sure to share it. What an atrocious event seemingly vanished to modern day. Keep up the good work!!
As an Ex-Jehovah's Witness I can Identify and agree with your comment. I have found so much deception perpetrated towards their current members, it's a dangerous cult.
Very respectful and well done video, Steve. There are so many sad events in American history, some (like the murders of Marcus and Narcissa Whitman) caused by misunderstanding, and others, like this one, by people who did what they wanted because they could get away with it. The Mormons did not improve their reputation by following the cold, heinous directions of one man. When I play out the story in my mind, such deliberate murders, especially of young children, makes me sick. You are to be commended for reminding us about these tragedies, and what can happen when people blindly follow a leader who cares only for himself. Thank goodness the surviving children were returned to their families, but what a waste of human life.
What’s interesting about this tragedy is that, as a fifth grade teacher, This incident was included in our 5th grade history book. Basically, the info given was that Narcissa was a problem in that she was was too demanding (and demeaning) as far as the Native Americans were concerned. I also taught about the heroism of Columbus and his men (according to the board-adopted textbook), but knowing what I now know, I wish I could take it all back! How many other lies did I promote? It makes me wonder how many other untruths were drilled into me since childhood…
@@nancyekstrom8409 As an adult I've read both Narcissa's diary and that of Eliza Spaulding. (I grew up in CA, so don't recall learning about it in school). My understanding was that the Cayuse blamed her and her doctor husband for failing to stop a plague of disease that killed many of their people. I'm sure there were other factors as well, but my point was that the massacre by the Mormons of other white settlers for no reason other than a cover up is inexcusable. Here we have since learned about the crimes of Father Serra (once held as a shining example for establishing the California missions) and the Spanish against the Kumeyaay and other local native people. History is not pretty; I appreciate that Steve brings little known stories to light, and does so calmly and fairly. I long ago gave up expecting 'great men' to be perfect heroes. There is no such thing. Thanks for your comment.
Funny you mention "what can happen when people blindly follow a leader who cares only for himself" looks like we're living that scenario yet again. It's strange how the more things change, the more they stay the same.
My mother's maiden name is Fancher. When I moved to Salt Lake City my mother's relatives told me about Mountain Meadows and warned me not to keep silent about my Fancher blood. I went to this site several times while living in Utah to pay respects. On September 11 2001 I was in Las Vegas at a trade show. I flew to Vegas from Salt Lake but managed to get the last car rental to get back home. I took a side trip to Mountain Meadows on my way back. It occurred to me then that the dates were the same; September 11. Religious zealots murdering innocent people.
When I first read about this story some years ago I was also struck by the date. The history books I've read about the massacre make it pretty plain the train was attacked because it was wealthy and extremely well-equipped, including some very valuable livestock such as Capt. Baker's fine Thoroughbred horse. Your relations were smart and determined to have success in California. Without the jealousy and violence of Brigham Young, they had every chance of establishing themselves very well in California. RIP to all.
@@bradmarr8765 too bad they weren't innocent ,Fancher was an accessory after the fact. Instead of dissolving the wagon train he let the Missourians murder the Indians I guess that's okay with you?
I have seen the historical marker near the field in Arkansas where the wagon train gathered, then departed. I had not heard about the massacre before reading the marker. Seventeen years in Arkansas schools, and I had never heard of this truly brutal event.
I'm also a realities. Bakers. First time I was at this sight it had cows grazing and pooping all over everything. Not the cows fault but disrespectful people. I was glad to see that the church decided to clean it up and make it a monument. First they had to admit fault. Very sad situation. Still a lot of truths unexplored.
The settlers were enraged by the recent murder of Mormon higher-up Parley P. Pratt in Arkansas, by the husband of a gal he recruited as a plural wife. Joseph Smith was killed in 1844 in Illinois.
Thanks for illustrating this little-known bit of American history. Knowing what happened before our time is essential to understanding what we see today. Keep up the good work!
We made it out there last year. Fascinating story. However, if you do visit and you see a dog roaming around kind of begging for food, don't fall for it. He lives right next door to the main parking lot at the overlook. He's learned to hang out and beg for food. We spent 45 minutes trying to "rescue" the dog, he had no collar, and he was having none of it other than whatever food people were offering. I decided to take a picture of the dog. As we left and headed north I noticed the driveway and figured I'd go down and ask them if it was their dog. As I pulled up to the front I noticed a dog bowl on the front porch. I knocked on the front door and asked the man if that was his dog. Sure enough. He then tells me how he's figured out his meal train.
That is very funny. I went about 3 years ago, did not see the dog. My dad did the same thing when he was a kid, went around the neighborhood playing the no-mommy card. Go and hang out with the neighbors every afternoon for a few hours, get invited to stay. Go home for second dinner when his father got home late from the jobsite.
Netflix has a movie based on this event, although it does have creative interpretations, the bottom line is that it happened, and who was behind it all. Thank you Steve for all of your posts. Love watching, and made sure I subscribed.
I thought it was a little odd that I just happened on this because the last couple of days I have been watching that very series on Netflix. I had heard of the massacre in the past and didn’t look into it much. Thanks.
The new Netflix film of this is erroneously misleading and dangerous Pres Young first off never did never would endorse this act of terror secondly he sent a message saying, leave these guys alone which reached them too late. The Netflix film shows Pres Young as a lunatic. Look Hollywood last place u want get info from.. bottom line it was a Mx of persons doing this act and no excuses made hear for it or the things and other things that may or may not have happen, BUT all done by individuals who were Mormon, or Indian or not anything at all or new members who didn’t know enough yet that killing folks like this was not the thing to be doing even in the Wild West. Church Head Quarters was FAR away, no cars then. Bottom line, the Church Of Jesus Christ did not do this, nor did its president order such a thing. Read history of the Church, these folks knew what getting chased, mobbed, killed, persecuted, women made to walk march through the snow bare foot with bleeding feet after being raped. Look these folks as a whole not doing this stuff again the Church not did not do this, individuals and the Church would never order something like this. My family to was from Ark etc. so I do appreciate your comment and contribution here but in end no excuses made hear for those people those individuals but Lee led and instigated those folks, Pres Young investigated and Lee was executed. Many others likely excommunicated from Church but not a lot of info on what happen to the others who fire shots but they knew Lee started pushing them forward into the Capital and the others followed into doing a terrible thing. Blessings hope ok for me to clarify some of the history, especially on the Netflix thing a very bad and taking artistic liberties completely causing misinformation and is dangerous in a misled modern society in which we live today, u know what I mean on that likely. Blessings n thanks again.
Thanks for finally highlighting this historic location. I've been there, and despite the peacefulness of the rural scenery, you can almost imagine the brutality and screams that occurred here all those years ago. This was always a point of contention in my family, as my dad was originally from Utah and my mom was from Arkansas.
Seeing the layout and where the groups were when the shooting started, knowing they could hear each others' execution across the valley was absolutely gut-wrenching.
I have always appreciated the way you deliver these horrific stories Steve! Absolutely tragic and gut wrenching when you hear the number of children, youthful adults and grown-ups. I'm quite certain those children that were spared in the beginning were never the same spiritually or mentally. No book to reference on how to present this type of story....but you find a way to bring comfort and a solemn fervent feeling amongst all the that is written in history about this Mountain of Meadows Menagerie of Madness. As always Steve, Thank You for my seat on your weekly Rides with You and Your Family. MOO From COW-lumbus, Ohio 👋
Hi Steve. Nice video. I'm from Arkansas. Lived here my entire life, I'm 61. But my wife and I travel out west twice a year. I have saved several of your videos, and already visited a few of your locations. Since my wife's mother lives in Phoenix, we visit Arizona regularly. But Utah is were we really love to explore. Take care.
Each year the descendants and people of the town reenact this episode. It's a big deal to them, I'm really surprised you didn't know about it. These people keep the memory alive each and every year.
Steve, I think this is the saddest Adventure you have shown us. I have never heard of this, which is not too surprising, since much of the horrors of the "Old West" has been erased or "reinterpreted." Thank you for your thoughtful presentation. Blessings.
Thank you so much. Yes, I think a lot of the stories of the old west end up getting changed because they were somewhat uncomfortable to hear years after they happened.
I read a book when I was in high school in the mid 60 s Called the mountain meadow War. Had a group Mormon friends that said it was fiction so looked it up. It was real.
@@maryannweldin4633 Your Mormon friends were told by the church that the massacre wasn't real, but it was very real and ordered by Brigham Young, the order was eventually found on a piece of paper.
Thank you Steve. We were able to visit the memorial a couple years ago. Sad indeed. As we stood in the meadow, after taking in the account of the massacre, you have the realization on how fragile our lives can be. Thanks again.
Excellent video. Thank you. I'm English and quite interested in American history. I'd had never heard of this event. It's horrifying what was done here, by modern Americans.
@@HLStrickland At the time I would imagine the English civil war was also yours, as well as mine. But what's your point? Events like this take place in all wars. Are you seeking to justify this horrific event by a similar event in the English civil war? All I'm saying is that I hadn't heard of this particular event and my astonishment that it was committed by the victims contemporaries. You seem to be implying that I could not imagine a similar event happening here in England, well I could. having served in the military myself, I am well aware of man's inhumanity to man. What is it you are trying to say?
@@jackgrimes-wl8fb You sounded like you were saying - Gee Americans bad because of this. MAN'S inhumanity to man. NO one walks around with clean hands - not one group.
@@SidetrackAdventures Great video Steve. John Krakauer in his book 'Under The Banner of Heaven' mentioned that these monuments had been dynamited at one time. Also that the Arkansans didn't exactly ingratiate themselves with the Mormon's and their practice of polygamy called the women 'whores' as they passed through Mormon settlements.
My father was born in 1912 in Bentonville, Arkansas which is in northwest Arkansas. When he was 21 he moved to Arizona. He told me that his aunt who was a school teacher and an "old maid", told him when she learned that he was moving to Arizona to "watch out for the Indians, coyotes and Mormons". I'm sure she was well aware of this massacre. This is only one of many atrocities committed over the years by members of this cult.
First, everyone in the ”Mormon” community condemns the actions known as the “Mountain Meadow Massacre”. Everyone. Non-Mormons who blame “Mormonism” for those actions are little better than the men who committed those murders. You see, the men who committed those atrocities were new or fairly-new converts to the “Mormon” faith. They were raised as Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, Presbyterians, Lutherans, etc. The attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors they had in September, 1857 were strongly affected by their upbringing as Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, Presbyterians, Lutherans, etc. If you want to blame religion for the massacre, perhaps you should blame your own non-Mormon faith too. Further, these were men who, just ten years earlier were violently driven out of their homes in Illinois by other men who considered themselves to be fine Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, Presbyterians, Lutherans, etc. Shortly before that, they were violently driven out of their homes in Missouri, Ohio, and New York by other men who considered themselves to be good Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, Presbyterians, Lutherans, etc. The participants in the massacre could not forget seeing their own fathers, brothers, friends, and ecclesiastical leaders murdered in the name of Christianity by worthy Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, Presbyterians, Lutherans, etc. As I read some of the comments on this video, it seems clear to me that some people who think they are Christians and think they are justified in condemning someone else’s Christianity are not quite the Christians they think they are. We Christians all share a lot in common - and some of that commonality isn’t Christlike. There is your challenge.
@@jimritter9769 Yes, and many people have an excuse for ignorance and bigotry. Some don't even bother to offer an excuse for ignorance and bigotry -- they simply think that ignorance and bigotry are a God-given right, no excuse necessary.
@@SidetrackAdventures If you haven't read that book yet, you're going to end up planning another couple of years' worth of travels to get to all of the places of interest.
When we watch your videos, we’re always amazed at the narration you give in each one. It doesn’t matter if you’re reading it or whatever, it’s always informative. I try to keep up with your videos but being a late subscriber, I’m behind A LOT. But being retired, I have plenty of time to watch them.
@@revvyhevvy Yes, Robert. Kuralt was a Sunday staple in this household. Bill Burrud yet another. And age? I've come to adopt the age is not really all that important unless you're a cheese philosophy. 🙂
@@tomelifeisjustonebig Because he had none and the documentary evidence demonstrates that. A messenger on horseback was dispatched from southern Utah to get Brigham Young's advice on how to handle the wagon train. He responded to leave them alone, but his message arrived too late; the massacre had already happened.
@@bostonrailfan2427 You're making an assertion, not an argument. Bring out the evidence, if you have it. If you don't, you're just repeating what you believe, based on your biases and prejudices.
@@MrWhipple42 and your quick and vehement defense showed your true hand and supports what i assumed already: you’re a mormon apologist trying hard to defend a scumbag who ordered the murder of anyone who was deemed a threat. he knew full well about that train and he ordered the murders. something like that doesn’t happen out of the blue and unprompted and isn’t even the first time they did that. he was conveniently away from immediate communication? more like giving himself plausible deniability which you and your fellow mormons refuse to accept. he ordered the murders of anyone who was a threat, it wasn’t the first nor the last time his followers did that to people. multiple accounts exist if similar murders
Perhaps you care to explain why the church denied all involvement until they could no longer get away with it. I've put far more time into investigating this than I should have and there's no doubt in my mind that Brigham Young was fully of responsibile. I also know that people that believe in magic rocks in a hat will believe anything that suits their narrative. 😊
Dear Steve, Thank you so much for covering the rather unknown Mountain Meadows Massacre. My Dad forsook the high Sierra and became a desert rat when I was in high school. That was in the late 1960's. About that time I learned about the MMM. Years later, after researching it, I discovered the list of victims which included Allen P. DeShazo. age 22, a somewhat distant cousin of my husband's (my mother-in-law was a DeShazo). I have wanted to visit the site for years, it is doubtful I will ever be able to. Thank you for getting me there! Yours, in our love of the west! -- AMJ
Another fine presentation here, Steve. As a landscape photographer I've been to southern Utah numerous times over the years, but I was totally unaware of this sad piece of history.
As you have done many times in the past you've shared some history that many of us have never heard about until now. Sad history at that. Thank you Steve.
I've really been fascinated by covered wagon stories lately and this one is excellent! Please, please do the covered wagon trail through the Black Rock Desert in Nevada - I really think that would get a lot of interest.
I lived close to the Mountain Massacre site for a while and visited this site frequently over the years, along with researching it online. I do recall reading that some of the attackers dressed as native Americans to further the story of an indian attack. It still amazes me how brutal the early Mormon settlers were towards these people who were just passing through.
Steve does excellent work on these videos, I had never heard of this event what a terrible stain on our American history and the Mormon Church. Its hard not to get teary-eyed watching the video.
My Grandmother was my Dads Mother. She moved to Moab, Utah. My Grandfather had a ranch there. She was always afraid of Mormons. Her mother was a Flancher and knew the history of the massacre . She did not trust Mormons.
When I lived in Arizona, there were Mormon men who had about 10 wives. Each wife would file for welfare and get it. So for years, we were supporting these perverted men and their sex slaves and all of their children. They were discovered and taken to court, not sure how it turned out.
My grandmother Nielsen. Firstly, Was a Norwegian Lutheran immigrant to North Dakota and family History had a distant Female Lutheran relative who died there at the Massacre and she never trusted Mormons either. Then on of the surviving Children actually small for his age and at 9Years old when he was taken by a Mormon family and told his story in a 1920 memoir.( Not all children were given back). The Army in 1871 came west to enforce Monogamy in Utah territory.
Steve, years ago I used to go on long solo drives in the American west. Once I found myself on a lonely desert two-lane road in the middle of nowhere in Utah. Just off the road there was a stone fort, built by Mormon pioneers, apparently to secure an artesian well. There was a park ranger and everything. I have completely lost track of what it’s called or where it’s located but I thought I’d mention it to see if it rings any bells. This was a very poignant episode, btw. Handled with great respect. Good job and love the channel.
I wonder where that is, that's going to bug me. I'll have to keep an ear out. there could be a bunch, who knows. One odd thing about Utah settlements is the water situation: the seeps/dug wells/springs are often in very vulnerable locations to native attack because it's underground meltwater reemerging at the base of the mountains. There's a legend about a town, I think it's Scipio, where Brigham young stopped and told them they needed to move the entire settlement down the hill into the valley because they'd built on the springs at the base of the mountain, completely indefensible to native attack. There's a very similar spot I go to called Simpson springs south of the bomb range in Dugway. It's actually a pony express station not a fort, but it's almost identical. On one side of the road is the original ruin, a little cobblestone and mud shack. On the other side is a very attractive modern replica, built by schoolkids. Down the hill is a tiny marsh and a few troughs, and a few miles distant across the desert floor is a mock battalion of ww2 era vehicles formerly used by the proving grounds. More often than not there's a few dozen wild horses in the immediate vicinity too. You really never know what you're going to see driving around here.
Cove fort. At the junction of I-15 and I-70, at the west end of Fremont Canyon. If you had taken the 70 and pulled over, there are hundreds of cave paintings to explore in the canyon walls. I grew up around there.
@@platinumtaterbug I just looked it up and it is - indeed - Cove Fort. Their website mentions it was a stop on the pony express and I remember the pony express trail was nearby. Thanks for sharing!
Excellent video! I had heard about the massacre, but never knew why it happened. Thanks for a very good explanation of what occurred , as it was summed up beautifully. I also like the respect and honor you showed for the victims.
This is a great video! It's been many years since I've been to this site, probably in the '80's or '90's. There weren't many markers here then, so a lot of our exploring was just guesswork. I'm glad to see that this site has been properly memorialized. A lot of history isn't pretty.
Hi Steve, thank you for your videos. Great images, a well-balanced storyline with great audio. Keep up the great work! Greetings from the old world. Glenn near Antwerp, Belgium.
Thanks for sharing the story. I loved in the area over 20 years ago and the story was always hush-hush. I was happy when they built the memorial. Appreciating the videos (been in Utah also filming). Hope we cross paths sometime. Keep up the good stuff. Thanks.
once again, another great video steve. missed this location when I was in st. george in march. it's easy to come home from utah/arizona and always feel like I missed something.
@@jeffs4483 it’s available on the Church website called Gospel Library. While it isn’t faith promoting, it also isn’t hidden. Many books have been written about it, most with the cooperation of the Church, using records kept by the Church, so that must mean they are trying to hide it, right? It’s a dark chapter of a terrible atrocity.
@@jeffs4483 Again, stating that this was never taught is like stating that the history of polygamy in the LDS Church was never taught. Maybe you attended seminary for a few years, but there are four years of seminary, each year focusing on a different aspect of the Gospel. Three years are focused on the books of the Gospel, Old Testament one year, New Testament the next and Book of Mormon the third year. Church history and the Restauration rounds out the fourth year. If you didn't go to the seminary the year that they taught church history, then you might have missed it, but it is taught during that year. I don't remember all the lessons that I was taught in LDS Church history but that one ,I do remember.
My first time to see your show. First off, I want to compliment your calming music! It is very much in the background and stops when you start talking. I don’t remember ever hearing about this story. Thanks for telling it to us.
Former Mormon of 40+ years here. It’s interesting to think back over all the changing apologetics on the story of this massacre. First I heard it was all the Native Americans and the Mormons only happened upon it after the fact. Then I heard that the Mormons were there with the Natives to talk to the migrants - but then the Natives went rogue before the Mormons could stop them. Then I heard that the Mormons were just defending themselves from a violent mob of migrants. Now, after I finally was able to escape the indoctrination of the Mormon cult - I can see it for what it is. If you dive into the insane true history of things like Blood Atonement and such that used to be practiced in the Mormon church - a lot of these stories start to make sense. There are a lot of very uncomfortable events and teaching in the Church’s past that they find much easier to pretend never existed. It’s also ironic how some of those memorials were paid for by the LDS “church”. And even how the wealthiest church in the world - can’t manage to pay any compensation to the families. There is just SO much messed up about this story. People get hung up on wether or not BY was directly behind the order to attack - but in the same way leaders today ensure a direct paper trail can’t lead to them, BY has avoided a direct written order in the archives. But there is plenty of smoke to help believe that he was at least aware of actions like this possibly happening and being ok with it.
@@burrellbikes4969 sounds to me that you experienced a lot of “I heard” and not a lot of “I studied “. I say that because there are many things that are said as an attempt to explain doctrines instead of studying them out. An example would be the Word of Wisdom and the attempts to explain why members are commanded to abstain from coffee and tea, making it about caffeine instead of a commandment. Trying to use men’s reasoning instead of revelation always leads to confusion.
@@rconger24Did you know that the orphaned children were abused horribly and neglected for the 2 years of their captivity? You should read their interviews.
I’m sorry for your years in the cult. Truth always sets us free. It is sad BY made up his teachings and blamed it on God and he used some if the real Bible to justify. I pray you let nothing, no religion, or no one stand between you and the real God who created you and loves you.
Wwhen I was 18 I got to be at this sight when they dedicated the memorial. When I was in Elementary school we went here on a field trip. It's awesome to see you exploring places that I've seen. Great job on your channel. I've been enjoying it for years now.
And yet in the 20th century alone the governments of the world murdered of 262 million of its own citizens. Communism killed 100 million. Genghis Khan is estimated to have killed 40 million people - enough to lower global temperatures from the loss of human activity. The greatest killer remains to be abortion with 1.7 _billion_ human being snuffed out since 1979. At least 3x the amount killed in all the wars fought by mankind... ever...
No, that's only partly true and only in the West. The Mongols, Timurids and atheist marxists certainly didn't need a religion to commit the worst atrocities in history.
Try reading some history. The most severe atrocities have always been done by atheists. Just look at the numbers. Also note that atheism is technically a religion since it makes assumptions that cannot be proven scientifically and often is in contrast to scientific laws.
This massacre was horrific and so sad. Prejudice has plagued our country throughout its short history. Thank you for being so respectful in the re-telling of this story.
Excellent video and narrative. Hard to believe something so terrible happened in such a lovely place. Very, very sad story. "...Man's inhumanity to man."
steve this weighs so heavy on my heart, i was raised a member of the church. they never bring up how bad the church was. never heard about this until i quit the church. i still get bothered by the church 35 yrs later, even in a different state. they even found my new house, i don't evev answer the door. so sad . dwain.
New subscriber here. Thanks for doing the video. Another story I do not recall or perhaps never heard in history class. ^5 years old and I appreciate learning from and about history. Peace
@@rconger24: Some of my finest neighbors have been Mormons, but the church, itself is rotten to the core. Nothing good can can be built from a mediocre foundation, while good fruit cannot come from a foul tree.
First, everyone in the ”Mormon” community condemns the actions known as the “Mountain Meadow Massacre”. Everyone. Non-Mormons who blame “Mormonism” for those actions are little better than the men who committed those murders. You see, the men who committed those atrocities were new or fairly-new converts to the “Mormon” faith. They were raised as Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, Presbyterians, Lutherans, etc. The attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors they had in September, 1857 were strongly affected by their upbringing as Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, Presbyterians, Lutherans, etc. If you want to blame religion for the massacre, perhaps you should blame your own non-Mormon faith too. Further, these were men who, just ten years earlier were violently driven out of their homes in Illinois by other men who considered themselves to be fine Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, Presbyterians, Lutherans, etc. Shortly before that, they were violently driven out of their homes in Missouri, Ohio, and New York by other men who considered themselves to be good Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, Presbyterians, Lutherans, etc. The participants in the massacre could not forget seeing their own fathers, brothers, friends, and ecclesiastical leaders murdered in the name of Christianity by worthy Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, Presbyterians, Lutherans, etc. As I read some of the comments on this video, it seems clear to me that some people who think they are Christians and think they are justified in condemning someone else’s Christianity are not quite the Christians they think they are. We Christians all share a lot in common - and some of that commonality isn’t Christlike. There is your challenge.
@@robertgeorge9909 Did you "gradjatute" with high honors in spelling????? LOLOLOLOL Members are called "SAINTS" and that's because they are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.... Are you still a Christian" after all of the wars and atrocities that were committed by so called "Christians" or are you still an atheist after all of the wars and atrocities committed by atheists?????
Very interesting Steve, ive read about this. It's amazing how many Mormons ive spoken to either don't know about it or pretend they don't know about it.
They wish to maintain plausible deniability. The Church scares its members from learning anything from “non-approved church sources”. And then don’t include anything about it in “approved” church resources.
@@dustysmoke4996 I am lifelong member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I was raised in it. I believe in it. This may surprise you but I learned all about the Mountain Meadow Massacre in my church sponsored Seminary class whike I was in High School. You have apparently, through no fault if your own encountered misinformation. Are we not in the year 2024? Isn't such prejudice unbecoming of us?
Especially after you realize the reason all those surrendered emigrants were murdered, was because they knew it was Mormons responsible for the attack and for many of them being killed by it. The Mormons murdered them simply to try to cover up their heinous crimes. I doubt any of those men found a comfortable place in heaven.
Very well and respectfully presented. Our history ain't always pretty, but it happened. We're supposed to learn from our past but looking at the world around me right now I'm not sure that enough have learned. A beautiful place forever marred by the misdeeds of mankind...
Ironically, one of your saddest and best videos. I have read many books about early "Mormon" history, some well know, some not. Very moving to see the actual location of this horrible event.
There were more "horrible events" : 1) Haun's Mill Massacre 2) Missouri Mormon extermination order 3) Assassination of Joseph Smith Junior and 4) The mortar shelling of Nauvoo and 5) Buchanan's Blunder.
For years the Mormon church has done everything to hide this. As a ex Mormon I can personally tell you that I only found out about this after left the church.
@rconger24 they were sent to indoctrinate you. There's a difference between teaching and indoctrinating. Always vet the sources from which you are taught. "Because leader of my church said it was true," is not vetting.
Being in my 65th year I assure you that I understand propaganda. I was taught about the material facts if it by The Church contrary to the claim by the original post.
I visited there; a very somber memorial. Excellent presentation. "September Dawn" was a movie based on this incident. John Voight was in the movie. Some Mormons are still very conflicted about this incident.
Many are real mad whenever it comes up, but they don't hesitate a second to talk about the Missouri extermination order every chance they get. My bosses literally complain about how much church time gets wasted talking about the extermination. Over and over. I haven't met one that wants to have a completely honest conversation about it.
@@michaelplunkett5124 I'm reticent to agree with conflating the political state known as Israel with genetically or religiously Jewish people. I don't equate Nigerians with Boko Haram or Saudis with Al Quaeda or Bavarians with Nazis either. Just think that's worth saying.
Very nice presentation. Thank you for the history. On a creative note, I usually abhor background music in these presentations, but you somehow mixed a perfect blend that did not interfere with your verbal narrative, and I did not actually realize there was music until I had watched the whole thing. BravO!
Whenever I encounter a pair of LDS missionaries, I always ask them about this event, and it's very consistent that one of them will be aware, and the other will be ignorant. My name is Bicycle Bob and I approved this message and one of the many visits I've made to this site, I saw a five foot Mojave green rattlesnake!
Hard to imagine something like this could happen, I don't think Justice was truly done, at least it doesn't sound like it. Thank You for the video. THE SARGE
![Seungmin "그렇게, 천천히, 우리(As we are)" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kAzmhLHePqU/mqdefault.jpg)
I never enjoyed history classes in school, but as I get older I realize how important it is to learn history - great segment
Same here Dan!
I’ve been a history nerd all my life and am a certified history teacher in my state. And believe me, I love these videos!
Modern history has often become politically correct history.
Example: Lincoln’s war of northern aggression against the south, has been re-named “the civil war”
Northerners and liberal media prefer reducing this northerners aggression to its lowest common denominator …
…. Including politically correct history revision.
CSA monuments have been removed and southern leaders have been demonized.
"Those who do not learn from history, are doomed to repeat it."
-Winston Churchill
Sadly, humans are very slow learners.
@@danlundgren262 I have a double major in History and English, and also taught both for five years before getting my masters in Counseling and spending the next 25 years working in a middle school in the inner city of Phoenix. Learning how to sugar coat the bitter pill of duration Getting to make it palatable and /or relevant for young minds is the real art of teaching! Getting kids to by in and forget that they are being skillfully entertained and taught at the same time is what we teachers always strive for! Steve would do well at this task !
I love your calm delivery, non-intrusive music, sound of your feet walking on the gravel and the out of the was places you feature.
This is such a dark peice of history within Mormonism. I have studied this a bit, and I was surprised to see my family name among those who murdered these men, women and children. I researched a little more and discovered that I'm related to this individual. This story is heartbreaking. To think that people could commit this horrific crime, especially a relative of mine. My grandma's uncle. He went on to live a happy life, raising a family and finally settling in Snowflake Arizona. As if it never happened. I have been to this place and I wept. I was born and raised in this church, and have heard various versions of this story. What these men did is unforgivable. Thank you for sharing. Subscribing to your channel.
My family lived in Modena and we always stop there on our way to show our respect.
This massacre of Arkansans led to our government pressuring Utah into statehood or get marched on. It got their little theocracy nipped in the bud, and they even had to change their doctrine. There is a lesson in sectarianism here though; as these Arkies were going from town to town picking Biblical debates - and that shouldn't cause a massacre, but it's not the first or last time that it has.
@@passiveaggressivenegotiato8087 Do research into what the Mormons went through before they ended up in Utah, and you'll find it is very likely that these 'Arkies' did say some derogatory things in a place they shouldn't have
There's no such thing as "Mormonism" or the "Mormon Church". This is only a nickname given to the church by its enemies.. And no, the theology was NOT crushed, or doctrine changed. This massacre was never condoned by the Church. In fact, President Young tried to prevent it, but they didn't get the message in time.
@@Ken-ej6sc Please stop with that stupid argument over using the phrase Mormonism or Mormon. All my years in the church, we were proud to be Mormon. Do you remember the I'm a Mormon campaign? Paid for by the church. Do you remember the church owned website with Mormon? If president Nelson wouldn't have changed it, you would be a proud Mormon. This argument is redicouls. I'm not changing just because one man said so.
Thank you for honouring those killed in this horrifying massacre. Doubtless an event the present generation would rather forget.
I think to part of history but it will never be repeated so onward and forward with better focus and things to focus on. Unfortunately many do not understand by what leader this happened from, was clearly not Pres Young. Good comment n thanks for sharing.
@@kolobkolobkolobkolob You do know that the church acknowledged the killings and built these memorials, right?
I'm from the UK and have visited the site twice - it's easy to see why the wagon train stopped here, good grazing and water. I've read all the info boards BUT your video adds so much - THANK YOU. I find it difficult to accept people could do this to unarmed men let alone to women & children. And then the ultimate hypocrisy, taking surviving children and trying to indoctrinate them - No EXCUSES would bear humane or logical thought. Once again THANK YOU.
We talking about the afghan war?
The Mormons claimed they had to ransom the children from Indians and billed the US $7000 in 1857, some $1 million today. Avg wage was about $1 day then. $2 was good. $5 big money. Esp in Mormon Utah, The Nation of Deseret, with 350,000 sq mi needed US money to expand its dream of empire.
I wouldn't have said that the "Children were taken in by local families" more like kidnapped by local families. Horrible, thanks for the history as always.
Exactly.
Steve gets a passing grade at minimizing.
@@Nova2032-exactly 🤢
And when the kids families claimed them, the Mormon families demanded reimbursement for taking the kids in.
Always trying to grift on the gov't. In those days.
What a beautiful, sad place. Thanks Steve for sharing this place.
The whole area is amazingly beautiful.
@@SidetrackAdventures I see what you did with 'sight', or is it 'site', oh that's right, it's both. Good one Steve, it gets the mind a working!
The terrain has changed dramatically due to a huge flood in the 1863. It barreled through and took out trees, changed drainages. John D. Lee lost a wife and two children to the flood and he was as far away from the meadow as Harmony. This is a very nice video.
As an Englishman this channel is fascinating as its places and history I’d never heard of before.
Thanks for your work, it’s excellent!
It’s no coincidence really. Mormonism was originally an English territorial play on the continent. Ultimately globalist in nature. A fundamentalist religion is exactly what the king ordered.
Ah, an Englishman. Look up "The battle of Cowpens, SC. Also Francis Marion, The Swamp Fox. But don't be concerned, all is forgiven. Come visit.
-A South Carolinian.
@@Bob-rd9vd Well THIS Englishman has done just that. I was specially interested in what happened around Ninety-Six, which was in itself an example of how complicated those times were. I first became aware of it in the book " Blue Highways" by William Least Heat-Moon which is well worth reading if you don't already know it. I have family, now in Georgia, who fought on the side of the new republic and my family in England were supporters of the ideas of fellow Englishman Thomas Paine.
As a Scot, I understand those days., but not the reason for the murders.
But I understand the intent of the perpetrators, and do not forgive.
250 years, all passion spent. Those who know, understand.
I heard about this years ago, but I didn’t realize it was so horrible and that so many people were killed. Thank you for the levelheaded explanation.
Brit here. Did not know about this. Was expecting to read about an Indian attack and when I learned the truth the real horror of the massacre hit me. Thank you for educating me.
Read about this in school 50yrs ago, remembered the name. You showed me the site, memorials and filled in so many details. Thanks. I always thought it was horrendous even for the times but it was so much worse.
As is often the case...deceit reigns supreme!
Probably not taught anymore ,too embarrassing.
I am glad you said you studied it in school. I do forget a lot so it’s possible we touched on it.
@@RichardRoyal-l5g It wasn't something the nun's discussed or tested at St. Lawrence, you had to read your history book.
Steve needs a show on the History Channel NOW! He is such a great narrator without being biased or opinionated.
I agree.
That would be great, except the history channel doesn't have any history on it!
@@GailWoodyard-ov5lw i agree
Today's history channel is totally biased man!
Totally agree 👍
My brother and I visited the site about 10 years ago. It's hard to imagine an event so horrific happening in such a peaceful place.
The members of the wagon train had to surrender their weapons before they were "escorted" thru the territory.
Man, your simple filming, music, and narration are becoming a lost art to me. I love the 1st person trail walking you have in all your videos. It's just aesthetically pleasing and educational documentary style filming.
I've never heard of this massacre before, and because of you, I'll be sure to share it. What an atrocious event seemingly vanished to modern day.
Keep up the good work!!
I agree, you just said it better than I could.
Superbly done, the narration was factual without being overly emotional. No pointing of fingers or moralising. We are left to judge for ourselves.
Thank you for covering these topics, as an ex-mormon I'm constantly horrified at the history of something that used to be my entire identity.
You're welcome.
Kudos for your journey. I hope the counterfeit has not soured you on the real or sent you to another counterfeit.
As an Ex-Jehovah's Witness I can Identify and agree with your comment. I have found so much deception perpetrated towards their current members, it's a dangerous cult.
Religion is never a persons entire identity.
@@matildagreene1744 Unfortunately, it can be and is with most Mormons.
Very respectful and well done video, Steve. There are so many sad events in American history, some (like the murders of Marcus and Narcissa Whitman) caused by misunderstanding, and others, like this one, by people who did what they wanted because they could get away with it. The Mormons did not improve their reputation by following the cold, heinous directions of one man. When I play out the story in my mind, such deliberate murders, especially of young children, makes me sick. You are to be commended for reminding us about these tragedies, and what can happen when people blindly follow a leader who cares only for himself. Thank goodness the surviving children were returned to their families, but what a waste of human life.
What’s interesting about this tragedy is that, as a fifth grade teacher, This incident was included in our 5th grade history book. Basically, the info given was that Narcissa was a problem in that she was was too demanding (and demeaning) as far as the Native Americans were concerned. I also taught about the heroism of Columbus and his men (according to the board-adopted textbook), but knowing what I now know, I wish I could take it all back! How many other lies did I promote? It makes me wonder how many other untruths were drilled into me since childhood…
@@nancyekstrom8409 As an adult I've read both Narcissa's diary and that of Eliza Spaulding. (I grew up in CA, so don't recall learning about it in school). My understanding was that the Cayuse blamed her and her doctor husband for failing to stop a plague of disease that killed many of their people. I'm sure there were other factors as well, but my point was that the massacre by the Mormons of other white settlers for no reason other than a cover up is inexcusable. Here we have since learned about the crimes of Father Serra (once held as a shining example for establishing the California missions) and the Spanish against the Kumeyaay and other local native people. History is not pretty; I appreciate that Steve brings little known stories to light, and does so calmly and fairly. I long ago gave up expecting 'great men' to be perfect heroes. There is no such thing. Thanks for your comment.
Funny you mention "what can happen when people blindly follow a leader who cares only for himself" looks like we're living that scenario yet again. It's strange how the more things change, the more they stay the same.
Or follow the media, The “science”, the establishment, the “current thing”, and all without question. Very puritanical but without the religion.
Exactly my thought too.
My mother's maiden name is Fancher. When I moved to Salt Lake City my mother's relatives told me about Mountain Meadows and warned me not to keep silent about my Fancher blood. I went to this site several times while living in Utah to pay respects. On September 11 2001 I was in Las Vegas at a trade show. I flew to Vegas from Salt Lake but managed to get the last car rental to get back home. I took a side trip to Mountain Meadows on my way back. It occurred to me then that the dates were the same; September 11. Religious zealots murdering innocent people.
Those mormons were dressed up as native indians so the natives would be blamed instead ...
Wow...excellent connection to our 9/11.
When I first read about this story some years ago I was also struck by the date. The history books I've read about the massacre make it pretty plain the train was attacked because it was wealthy and extremely well-equipped, including some very valuable livestock such as Capt. Baker's fine Thoroughbred horse.
Your relations were smart and determined to have success in California. Without the jealousy and violence of Brigham Young, they had every chance of establishing themselves very well in California. RIP to all.
Augusto Pinochet took power from Salvador Alendé in Chile on 9/11...
@@bradmarr8765 too bad they weren't innocent ,Fancher was an accessory after the fact. Instead of dissolving the wagon train he let the Missourians murder the Indians I guess that's okay with you?
I live about 15 miles from where that wagon train started in Arkansas. Some of those dead were distant relatives.
I have seen the historical marker near the field in Arkansas where the wagon train gathered, then departed. I had not heard about the massacre before reading the marker. Seventeen years in Arkansas schools, and I had never heard of this truly brutal event.
this is horrific
I'm also a realities. Bakers. First time I was at this sight it had cows grazing and pooping all over everything. Not the cows fault but disrespectful people. I was glad to see that the church decided to clean it up and make it a monument. First they had to admit fault. Very sad situation. Still a lot of truths unexplored.
Thanks for this. Having just watched American Primeval it is very helpful to have further detail on this abhorrent incident
I had never heard of this. Thank you for such a sobering history lesson.
It's very well done and researched. Safe travels.👍
Thank you, I appreciate it.
The settlers were enraged by the recent murder of Mormon higher-up Parley P. Pratt in Arkansas, by the husband of a gal he recruited as a plural wife. Joseph Smith was killed in 1844 in Illinois.
Mark Twain recounted it in detail
@@benwinter2420 , bless his heart!😆
Thanks for illustrating this little-known bit of American history. Knowing what happened before our time is essential to understanding what we see today. Keep up the good work!
Fear and Hysteria sanctioned by the Government is something we saw during the pandemic. Our economy is still suffering from it right now.
We made it out there last year. Fascinating story. However, if you do visit and you see a dog roaming around kind of begging for food, don't fall for it. He lives right next door to the main parking lot at the overlook. He's learned to hang out and beg for food. We spent 45 minutes trying to "rescue" the dog, he had no collar, and he was having none of it other than whatever food people were offering. I decided to take a picture of the dog. As we left and headed north I noticed the driveway and figured I'd go down and ask them if it was their dog. As I pulled up to the front I noticed a dog bowl on the front porch. I knocked on the front door and asked the man if that was his dog. Sure enough. He then tells me how he's figured out his meal train.
Awesome story.. thanks 🙂
Dogs be smart
What breed was he?
@@aguy7848 I'm not much of a dog person but it looked like a medium sized mutt.
That is very funny. I went about 3 years ago, did not see the dog. My dad did the same thing when he was a kid, went around the neighborhood playing the no-mommy card. Go and hang out with the neighbors every afternoon for a few hours, get invited to stay. Go home for second dinner when his father got home late from the jobsite.
Thank you. This is an important story to memorialize.
Netflix has a movie based on this event, although it does have creative interpretations, the bottom line is that it happened, and who was behind it all. Thank you Steve for all of your posts. Love watching, and made sure I subscribed.
I thought it was a little odd that I just happened on this because the last couple of days I have been watching that very series on Netflix. I had heard of the massacre in the past and didn’t look into it much. Thanks.
The new Netflix film of this is erroneously misleading and dangerous Pres Young first off never did never would endorse this act of terror secondly he sent a message saying, leave these guys alone which reached them too late. The Netflix film shows Pres Young as a lunatic. Look Hollywood last place u want get info from.. bottom line it was a Mx of persons doing this act and no excuses made hear for it or the things and other things that may or may not have happen, BUT all done by individuals who were Mormon, or Indian or not anything at all or new members who didn’t know enough yet that killing folks like this was not the thing to be doing even in the Wild West. Church Head Quarters was FAR away, no cars then. Bottom line, the Church Of Jesus Christ did not do this, nor did its president order such a thing. Read history of the Church, these folks knew what getting chased, mobbed, killed, persecuted, women made to walk march through the snow bare foot with bleeding feet after being raped. Look these folks as a whole not doing this stuff again the Church not did not do this, individuals and the Church would never order something like this. My family to was from Ark etc. so I do appreciate your comment and contribution here but in end no excuses made hear for those people those individuals but Lee led and instigated those folks, Pres Young investigated and Lee was executed. Many others likely excommunicated from Church but not a lot of info on what happen to the others who fire shots but they knew Lee started pushing them forward into the Capital and the others followed into doing a terrible thing. Blessings hope ok for me to clarify some of the history, especially on the Netflix thing a very bad and taking artistic liberties completely causing misinformation and is dangerous in a misled modern society in which we live today, u know what I mean on that likely. Blessings n thanks again.
Thanks for finally highlighting this historic location. I've been there, and despite the peacefulness of the rural scenery, you can almost imagine the brutality and screams that occurred here all those years ago. This was always a point of contention in my family, as my dad was originally from Utah and my mom was from Arkansas.
Seeing the layout and where the groups were when the shooting started, knowing they could hear each others' execution across the valley was absolutely gut-wrenching.
I have always appreciated the way you deliver these horrific stories Steve! Absolutely tragic and gut wrenching when you hear the number of children, youthful adults and grown-ups. I'm quite certain those children that were spared in the beginning were never the same spiritually or mentally. No book to reference on how to present this type of story....but you find a way to bring comfort and a solemn fervent feeling amongst all the that is written in history about this Mountain of Meadows Menagerie of Madness. As always Steve, Thank You for my seat on your weekly Rides with You and Your Family. MOO From COW-lumbus, Ohio 👋
" Mountain Meadow Massacre" by Juanita Brooks
@@georgepoore3840 I looked this up George after seeing your comment! Much Thanks! I wasn't aware of this! Salute👋
Hi Steve. Nice video. I'm from Arkansas. Lived here my entire life, I'm 61. But my wife and I travel out west twice a year. I have saved several of your videos, and already visited a few of your locations. Since my wife's mother lives in Phoenix, we visit Arizona regularly. But Utah is were we really love to explore. Take care.
I've lived in Utah all my life, and I never knew about this. This is a dark part of Utah's history. Wow. Great video, as always!
Each year the descendants and people of the town reenact this episode. It's a big deal to them, I'm really surprised you didn't know about it. These people keep the memory alive each and every year.
Steve, I think this is the saddest Adventure you have shown us. I have never heard of this, which is not too surprising, since much of the horrors of the "Old West" has been erased or "reinterpreted." Thank you for your thoughtful presentation. Blessings.
Thank you so much. Yes, I think a lot of the stories of the old west end up getting changed because they were somewhat uncomfortable to hear years after they happened.
Wow. I never heard about this event. I have a minor degree in US History and this massacre was never covered. Thank you for sharing this!!!
yah i would say most general Historians, dont know about this. but its pretty common knowledge among old west types.
I grew up knowing that story. Always made me sad . Still upset over it. 😢 shameful.
I read a book when I was in high school in the mid 60 s Called the mountain meadow War. Had a group Mormon friends that said it was fiction so looked it up. It was real.
@@maryannweldin4633 Your Mormon friends were told by the church that the massacre wasn't real, but it was very real and ordered by Brigham Young, the order was eventually found on a piece of paper.
Thank you Steve. We were able to visit the memorial a couple years ago. Sad indeed. As we stood in the meadow, after taking in the account of the massacre, you have the realization on how fragile our lives can be. Thanks again.
Visited Utah last spring
Beautiful state
Horrid crimes, lies, and no justice in a beautiful and otherwise peaceful place.
Very interesting video.
Excellent video. Thank you. I'm English and quite interested in American history. I'd had never heard of this event. It's horrifying what was done here, by modern Americans.
uhhh ... Your own Civil War. Oliver Cromwell ring a bell?
@@HLStrickland At the time I would imagine the English civil war was also yours, as well as mine. But what's your point? Events like this take place in all wars. Are you seeking to justify this horrific event by a similar event in the English civil war? All I'm saying is that I hadn't heard of this particular event and my astonishment that it was committed by the victims contemporaries. You seem to be implying that I could not imagine a similar event happening here in England, well I could. having served in the military myself, I am well aware of man's inhumanity to man. What is it you are trying to say?
@@jackgrimes-wl8fb You sounded like you were saying - Gee Americans bad because of this. MAN'S inhumanity to man. NO one walks around with clean hands - not one group.
Thank You for posting this, a location I've been curious about for a long time but have never visited... "what evil lurks in the minds of men..."
Steve.... this is one of your best videos yet!! Nice job and thanks for sharing. Ax
Thank you Steve! I always enjoy watching Sidetrack Adventures!
Thank you, I appreciate it.
@@SidetrackAdventures Great video Steve. John Krakauer in his book 'Under The Banner of Heaven' mentioned that these monuments had been dynamited at one time. Also that the Arkansans didn't exactly ingratiate themselves with the Mormon's and their practice of polygamy called the women 'whores' as they passed through Mormon settlements.
My father was born in 1912 in Bentonville, Arkansas which is in northwest Arkansas. When he was 21 he moved to Arizona. He told me that his aunt who was a school teacher and an "old maid", told him when she learned that he was moving to Arizona to "watch out for the Indians, coyotes and Mormons". I'm sure she was well aware of this massacre. This is only one of many atrocities committed over the years by members of this cult.
First, everyone in the ”Mormon” community condemns the actions known as the “Mountain Meadow Massacre”. Everyone.
Non-Mormons who blame “Mormonism” for those actions are little better than the men who committed those murders. You see, the men who committed those atrocities were new or fairly-new converts to the “Mormon” faith. They were raised as Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, Presbyterians, Lutherans, etc. The attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors they had in September, 1857 were strongly affected by their upbringing as Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, Presbyterians, Lutherans, etc. If you want to blame religion for the massacre, perhaps you should blame your own non-Mormon faith too.
Further, these were men who, just ten years earlier were violently driven out of their homes in Illinois by other men who considered themselves to be fine Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, Presbyterians, Lutherans, etc. Shortly before that, they were violently driven out of their homes in Missouri, Ohio, and New York by other men who considered themselves to be good Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, Presbyterians, Lutherans, etc. The participants in the massacre could not forget seeing their own fathers, brothers, friends, and ecclesiastical leaders murdered in the name of Christianity by worthy Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, Presbyterians, Lutherans, etc.
As I read some of the comments on this video, it seems clear to me that some people who think they are Christians and think they are justified in condemning someone else’s Christianity are not quite the Christians they think they are. We Christians all share a lot in common - and some of that commonality isn’t Christlike. There is your challenge.
Excuses are like a..holes every one has one..
@@jimritter9769 Yes, and many people have an excuse for ignorance and bigotry. Some don't even bother to offer an excuse for ignorance and bigotry -- they simply think that ignorance and bigotry are a God-given right, no excuse necessary.
Mountain Meadows was a white mans war.
Evil
Never heard of this before tonight. Thank you Steve for the interesting but sad history lesson.
Irving Stone covered this event in his book "Men To Match My Mountains." It is a most excellent book. Thanks for your video.
I'll have to check that out.
Also covered in the book The Mormon Murders about the Salt Lake City bombings in the 1980's.
@@SidetrackAdventures If you haven't read that book yet, you're going to end up planning another couple of years' worth of travels to get to all of the places of interest.
Also Sally Denton's American Massacre and Will Bagley's Blood of the Prophets.
_Victim: The Other Side of Murder_ is a 1982 true crime book set in Ogden, UT, by Gary Kinder.
When we watch your videos, we’re always amazed at the narration you give in each one. It doesn’t matter if you’re reading it or whatever, it’s always informative. I try to keep up with your videos but being a late subscriber, I’m behind A LOT. But being retired, I have plenty of time to watch them.
Steve is a present day Charles Kuralt!
Oh, no, I'm showing my age! 69yrs woohoo!
@@revvyhevvy Yes, Robert. Kuralt was a Sunday staple in this household. Bill Burrud yet another. And age? I've come to adopt the age is not really all that important unless you're a cheese philosophy. 🙂
You delicately danced around the question of direct involvement by Brigham Young.
@@tomelifeisjustonebig Because he had none and the documentary evidence demonstrates that. A messenger on horseback was dispatched from southern Utah to get Brigham Young's advice on how to handle the wagon train. He responded to leave them alone, but his message arrived too late; the massacre had already happened.
@@MrWhipple42and if you believe that these actions didn’t directly come with his blessing until it backfired on him you’re fooling yourself
@@bostonrailfan2427 You're making an assertion, not an argument. Bring out the evidence, if you have it. If you don't, you're just repeating what you believe, based on your biases and prejudices.
@@MrWhipple42 and your quick and vehement defense showed your true hand and supports what i assumed already: you’re a mormon apologist trying hard to defend a scumbag who ordered the murder of anyone who was deemed a threat.
he knew full well about that train and he ordered the murders. something like that doesn’t happen out of the blue and unprompted and isn’t even the first time they did that. he was conveniently away from immediate communication? more like giving himself plausible deniability which you and your fellow mormons refuse to accept.
he ordered the murders of anyone who was a threat, it wasn’t the first nor the last time his followers did that to people. multiple accounts exist if similar murders
Perhaps you care to explain why the church denied all involvement until they could no longer get away with it. I've put far more time into investigating this than I should have and there's no doubt in my mind that Brigham Young was fully of responsibile. I also know that people that believe in magic rocks in a hat will believe anything that suits their narrative. 😊
Dear Steve, Thank you so much for covering the rather unknown Mountain Meadows Massacre. My Dad forsook the high Sierra and became a desert rat when I was in high school. That was in the late 1960's. About that time I learned about the MMM. Years later, after researching it, I discovered the list of victims which included Allen P. DeShazo. age 22, a somewhat distant cousin of my husband's (my mother-in-law was a DeShazo). I have wanted to visit the site for years, it is doubtful I will ever be able to. Thank you for getting me there! Yours, in our love of the west! -- AMJ
Great piece dude. I just watched AMERICAN PRIMEVAL. This vid fits right into the movie……
Another fine presentation here, Steve. As a landscape photographer I've been to southern Utah numerous times over the years, but I was totally unaware of this sad piece of history.
As you have done many times in the past you've shared some history that many of us have never heard about until now. Sad history at that. Thank you Steve.
I've really been fascinated by covered wagon stories lately and this one is excellent! Please, please do the covered wagon trail through the Black Rock Desert in Nevada - I really think that would get a lot of interest.
I lived close to the Mountain Massacre site for a while and visited this site frequently over the years, along with researching it online.
I do recall reading that some of the attackers dressed as native Americans to further the story of an indian attack.
It still amazes me how brutal the early Mormon settlers were towards these people who were just passing through.
Rigdon, Young, even Smith, were brutal men, going back to Ohio, the Danites, etc
The Mormons were themselves brutalized. None of which justifies anything.
Like the Boston tea party. They dressed as Indians too.
Steve does excellent work on these videos, I had never heard of this event what a terrible stain on our American history and the Mormon Church. Its hard not to get teary-eyed watching the video.
My Grandmother was my Dads Mother. She moved to Moab, Utah. My Grandfather had a ranch there. She was always afraid of Mormons. Her mother was a Flancher and knew the history of the massacre . She did not trust Mormons.
They are not to be trusted.
When I lived in Arizona, there were Mormon men who had about 10 wives. Each wife would file for welfare and get it. So for years, we were supporting these perverted men and their sex slaves and all of their children. They were discovered and taken to court, not sure how it turned out.
Danites?
My grandmother Nielsen. Firstly, Was a Norwegian Lutheran immigrant to North Dakota and family History had a distant Female Lutheran relative who died there at the Massacre and she never trusted Mormons either. Then on of the surviving Children actually small for his age and at 9Years old when he was taken by a Mormon family and told his story in a 1920 memoir.( Not all children were given back). The Army in 1871 came west to enforce Monogamy in Utah territory.
I enjoy your videos. My wife, daughter, and I were at Mountain Meadows in June. I read a book about this years ago, so I was compelled to see it.
Steve, years ago I used to go on long solo drives in the American west. Once I found myself on a lonely desert two-lane road in the middle of nowhere in Utah. Just off the road there was a stone fort, built by Mormon pioneers, apparently to secure an artesian well. There was a park ranger and everything. I have completely lost track of what it’s called or where it’s located but I thought I’d mention it to see if it rings any bells.
This was a very poignant episode, btw. Handled with great respect. Good job and love the channel.
I wonder where that is, that's going to bug me. I'll have to keep an ear out. there could be a bunch, who knows. One odd thing about Utah settlements is the water situation: the seeps/dug wells/springs are often in very vulnerable locations to native attack because it's underground meltwater reemerging at the base of the mountains. There's a legend about a town, I think it's Scipio, where Brigham young stopped and told them they needed to move the entire settlement down the hill into the valley because they'd built on the springs at the base of the mountain, completely indefensible to native attack.
There's a very similar spot I go to called Simpson springs south of the bomb range in Dugway. It's actually a pony express station not a fort, but it's almost identical. On one side of the road is the original ruin, a little cobblestone and mud shack. On the other side is a very attractive modern replica, built by schoolkids. Down the hill is a tiny marsh and a few troughs, and a few miles distant across the desert floor is a mock battalion of ww2 era vehicles formerly used by the proving grounds. More often than not there's a few dozen wild horses in the immediate vicinity too. You really never know what you're going to see driving around here.
That might be Cove Fort
Cove fort. At the junction of I-15 and I-70, at the west end of Fremont Canyon. If you had taken the 70 and pulled over, there are hundreds of cave paintings to explore in the canyon walls. I grew up around there.
@@platinumtaterbug
yes Cove Fort. Very close to i15 and I 70.
@@platinumtaterbug I just looked it up and it is - indeed - Cove Fort. Their website mentions it was a stop on the pony express and I remember the pony express trail was nearby. Thanks for sharing!
Excellent video! I had heard about the massacre, but never knew why it happened. Thanks for a very good explanation of what occurred , as it was summed up beautifully. I also like the respect and honor you showed for the victims.
This is a great video! It's been many years since I've been to this site, probably in the '80's or '90's. There weren't many markers here then, so a lot of our exploring was just guesswork. I'm glad to see that this site has been properly memorialized. A lot of history isn't pretty.
Hi Steve, thank you for your videos. Great images, a well-balanced storyline with great audio. Keep up the great work! Greetings from the old world. Glenn near Antwerp, Belgium.
Thanks for sharing the story. I loved in the area over 20 years ago and the story was always hush-hush. I was happy when they built the memorial. Appreciating the videos (been in Utah also filming). Hope we cross paths sometime. Keep up the good stuff. Thanks.
Hush hush? I learned about it in my Seminary that was sponsored by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints during my High School years.
Great work on this video, very proud of your efforts. No BS. No filler. All fact. Well-done!
Wow, after six decades of studying history, I thought I'd read it all. Ashamed to say I've never heard of this incident.
once again, another great video steve. missed this location when I was in st. george in march. it's easy to come home from utah/arizona and always feel like I missed something.
Thanks Steve. I’ve read about this but nothing beats seeing the actual site.
Yes,makes it stick in your memory.
Ex Mormon here and was never taught about this. Just another great reason to leave that Cult.
alot of history is covered up because its not pretty and reflects badly on some people.
I guess you never went to LDS seminary since I was taught this. I guess you were outback smoking when they went over this.
@@jacqueschouette7474
I attended Seminary and was never taught this. They are embarrassed by it.
@@jeffs4483 it’s available on the Church website called Gospel Library. While it isn’t faith promoting, it also isn’t hidden. Many books have been written about it, most with the cooperation of the Church, using records kept by the Church, so that must mean they are trying to hide it, right?
It’s a dark chapter of a terrible atrocity.
@@jeffs4483 Again, stating that this was never taught is like stating that the history of polygamy in the LDS Church was never taught. Maybe you attended seminary for a few years, but there are four years of seminary, each year focusing on a different aspect of the Gospel. Three years are focused on the books of the Gospel, Old Testament one year, New Testament the next and Book of Mormon the third year. Church history and the Restauration rounds out the fourth year. If you didn't go to the seminary the year that they taught church history, then you might have missed it, but it is taught during that year. I don't remember all the lessons that I was taught in LDS Church history but that one ,I do remember.
My first time to see your show. First off, I want to compliment your calming music! It is very much in the background and stops when you start talking. I don’t remember ever hearing about this story. Thanks for telling it to us.
Excellent video: informative, well produced, great narration, great background music. Thanks!
Thank you mr. Steve, so many souls lost to luckless circumstances completely beyond their control. RIP.
Former Mormon of 40+ years here. It’s interesting to think back over all the changing apologetics on the story of this massacre. First I heard it was all the Native Americans and the Mormons only happened upon it after the fact. Then I heard that the Mormons were there with the Natives to talk to the migrants - but then the Natives went rogue before the Mormons could stop them. Then I heard that the Mormons were just defending themselves from a violent mob of migrants. Now, after I finally was able to escape the indoctrination of the Mormon cult - I can see it for what it is. If you dive into the insane true history of things like Blood Atonement and such that used to be practiced in the Mormon church - a lot of these stories start to make sense. There are a lot of very uncomfortable events and teaching in the Church’s past that they find much easier to pretend never existed. It’s also ironic how some of those memorials were paid for by the LDS “church”. And even how the wealthiest church in the world - can’t manage to pay any compensation to the families. There is just SO much messed up about this story. People get hung up on wether or not BY was directly behind the order to attack - but in the same way leaders today ensure a direct paper trail can’t lead to them, BY has avoided a direct written order in the archives. But there is plenty of smoke to help believe that he was at least aware of actions like this possibly happening and being ok with it.
I think the general rule with “the Church” nothing happens without approval from the very top.
Did you know about the scholarship fund The Church set up for the descendants of those orphaned children?
@@burrellbikes4969 sounds to me that you experienced a lot of “I heard” and not a lot of “I studied “. I say that because there are many things that are said as an attempt to explain doctrines instead of studying them out. An example would be the Word of Wisdom and the attempts to explain why members are commanded to abstain from coffee and tea, making it about caffeine instead of a commandment.
Trying to use men’s reasoning instead of revelation always leads to confusion.
@@rconger24Did you know that the orphaned children were abused horribly and neglected for the 2 years of their captivity? You should read their interviews.
I’m sorry for your years in the cult. Truth always sets us free. It is sad BY made up his teachings and blamed it on God and he used some if the real Bible to justify. I pray you let nothing, no religion, or no one stand between you and the real God who created you and loves you.
Wow. Heartbreaking. Thank you for a great video, as always.
What a fascinating piece of history. I was aware of the massacre but none of the details. Thanks for bringing it to life for me.
Wwhen I was 18 I got to be at this sight when they dedicated the memorial. When I was in Elementary school we went here on a field trip. It's awesome to see you exploring places that I've seen. Great job on your channel. I've been enjoying it for years now.
'Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from a religious conviction.' - Blaise Pascal
So true.
And yet in the 20th century alone the governments of the world murdered of 262 million of its own citizens. Communism killed 100 million. Genghis Khan is estimated to have killed 40 million people - enough to lower global temperatures from the loss of human activity. The greatest killer remains to be abortion with 1.7 _billion_ human being snuffed out since 1979. At least 3x the amount killed in all the wars fought by mankind... ever...
No, that's only partly true and only in the West. The Mongols, Timurids and atheist marxists certainly didn't need a religion to commit the worst atrocities in history.
Try reading some history. The most severe atrocities have always been done by atheists. Just look at the numbers. Also note that atheism is technically a religion since it makes assumptions that cannot be proven scientifically and often is in contrast to scientific laws.
It wasn't done for religious reasons. The communists murdered tens of millions, they're all atheists.
Thank you for the detailed information. I had no idea this horrible event occurred.
This massacre was horrific and so sad. Prejudice has plagued our country throughout its short history. Thank you for being so respectful in the re-telling of this story.
Our country???? You mean our world......
Well done, as always, Steve.
Another great video... I had never heard of this event...thanks
Excellent video and narrative. Hard to believe something so terrible happened in such a lovely place. Very, very sad story. "...Man's inhumanity to man."
steve this weighs so heavy on my heart, i was raised a member of the church. they never bring up how bad the church was. never heard about this until i quit the church. i still get bothered by the church 35 yrs later, even in a different state. they even found my new house, i don't evev answer the door. so sad . dwain.
At 85, studing history for decades and driving through Utah many times, this is my first knowledge of this terrible tragedy.
Lmfao 🤡
New subscriber here. Thanks for doing the video. Another story I do not recall or perhaps never heard in history class. ^5 years old and I appreciate learning from and about history. Peace
Steve, thank you for the accurate information in this video. 🎉
My man, you have the best background music in your videos. Where do you find what you use? Sets the mood for the scenery and content. Outstanding.
Its from Epidemic Sounds.
"Anyone who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire. This is exactly what happened to the adherents of Mormonism.
Today our fruits are sweet and abundant. We are a happy and productive people.
@@rconger24: Some of my finest neighbors have been Mormons, but the church, itself is rotten to the core. Nothing good can can be built from a mediocre foundation, while good fruit cannot come from a foul tree.
@@jacksquat4140 a miserable toxic brainwashing cult
First, everyone in the ”Mormon” community condemns the actions known as the “Mountain Meadow Massacre”. Everyone.
Non-Mormons who blame “Mormonism” for those actions are little better than the men who committed those murders. You see, the men who committed those atrocities were new or fairly-new converts to the “Mormon” faith. They were raised as Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, Presbyterians, Lutherans, etc. The attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors they had in September, 1857 were strongly affected by their upbringing as Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, Presbyterians, Lutherans, etc. If you want to blame religion for the massacre, perhaps you should blame your own non-Mormon faith too.
Further, these were men who, just ten years earlier were violently driven out of their homes in Illinois by other men who considered themselves to be fine Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, Presbyterians, Lutherans, etc. Shortly before that, they were violently driven out of their homes in Missouri, Ohio, and New York by other men who considered themselves to be good Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, Presbyterians, Lutherans, etc. The participants in the massacre could not forget seeing their own fathers, brothers, friends, and ecclesiastical leaders murdered in the name of Christianity by worthy Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, Presbyterians, Lutherans, etc.
As I read some of the comments on this video, it seems clear to me that some people who think they are Christians and think they are justified in condemning someone else’s Christianity are not quite the Christians they think they are. We Christians all share a lot in common - and some of that commonality isn’t Christlike. There is your challenge.
As a Mormon I am saddened by this story Religious Extremism in all forms is unacceptible
And you are still a morman?
@@robertgeorge9909 Did you "gradjatute" with high honors in spelling????? LOLOLOLOL Members are called "SAINTS" and that's because they are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.... Are you still a Christian" after all of the wars and atrocities that were committed by so called "Christians" or are you still an atheist after all of the wars and atrocities committed by atheists?????
We should remember that Joseph Smith was murdered and the Mormons themselves suffered vicious persecution. No group has a monopoly on evil.
Thanks!
Thank you, I truly appreciate it.
Hi and history always great and also sad some movements
Very interesting Steve, ive read about this. It's amazing how many Mormons ive spoken to either don't know about it or pretend they don't know about it.
I was born into a Mormon family. Relatives on both sides are Mormon. I got out when I was 18. I had never heard of this. Despicable!!
They wish to maintain plausible deniability. The Church scares its members from learning anything from “non-approved church sources”. And then don’t include anything about it in “approved” church resources.
You can bet they never mention it in Mormon history lessons in school.
@@burrellbikes4969 Hey, worked in Soviet Russia...
@@dustysmoke4996
I am lifelong member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I was raised in it. I believe in it. This may surprise you but I learned all about the Mountain Meadow Massacre in my church sponsored Seminary class whike I was in High School. You have apparently, through no fault if your own encountered misinformation. Are we not in the year 2024? Isn't such prejudice unbecoming of us?
The cruelty that some men do.😢😡
Amazing video. Thank you Steve.
Especially after you realize the reason all those surrendered emigrants were murdered, was because they knew it was Mormons responsible for the attack and for many of them being killed by it. The Mormons murdered them simply to try to cover up their heinous crimes. I doubt any of those men found a comfortable place in heaven.
Well done! Thanks much. I look forward to more stories.
What a sad story, but an excellent video! Thank you for the informative tour.
Very well and respectfully presented. Our history ain't always pretty, but it happened. We're supposed to learn from our past but looking at the world around me right now I'm not sure that enough have learned. A beautiful place forever marred by the misdeeds of mankind...
Ironically, one of your saddest and best videos. I have read many books about early "Mormon" history, some well know, some not. Very moving to see the actual location of this horrible event.
There were more "horrible events" :
1) Haun's Mill Massacre
2) Missouri Mormon extermination order
3) Assassination of Joseph Smith Junior and
4) The mortar shelling of Nauvoo and
5) Buchanan's Blunder.
Mark Twain wrote very eloquently about this event.
Yes, in "Roughing It."
Thanks
Twain had his own prejudices.
@@rconger24 Great contribution to the discussion.
Very informative. I'd never heard this story, and will add this site to my list of must see areas.
One of my favorite places to stop at when going thru Utah, great video. This is one of my favorite channels.
For years the Mormon church has done everything to hide this. As a ex Mormon I can personally tell you that I only found out about this after left the church.
Odd.
I learned about this from teachers in my seminary class.
They were sent by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to teach me.
@rconger24 they were sent to indoctrinate you. There's a difference between teaching and indoctrinating. Always vet the sources from which you are taught. "Because leader of my church said it was true," is not vetting.
Being in my 65th year I assure you that I understand propaganda. I was taught about the material facts if it by The Church contrary to the claim by the original post.
@@rconger384 "The Church?" What church might that be?
The ones who are trying to cover it up are the ones who's ancestors did it.
I visited there; a very somber memorial. Excellent presentation. "September Dawn" was a movie based on this incident. John Voight was in the movie. Some Mormons are still very conflicted about this incident.
Many are real mad whenever it comes up, but they don't hesitate a second to talk about the Missouri extermination order every chance they get. My bosses literally complain about how much church time gets wasted talking about the extermination. Over and over. I haven't met one that wants to have a completely honest conversation about it.
@@jcarry5214 They display similar traits with the other chosen people of God-playing both victim and perpetrator.
@@michaelplunkett5124 I'm reticent to agree with conflating the political state known as Israel with genetically or religiously Jewish people. I don't equate Nigerians with Boko Haram or Saudis with Al Quaeda or Bavarians with Nazis either. Just think that's worth saying.
Wow, this is the first I have heard of this. What a tragedy.
Enjoy your videos , really like your straight up presentations. First i have ever heard of this .
Very nice presentation. Thank you for the history. On a creative note, I usually abhor background music in these presentations, but you somehow mixed a perfect blend that did not interfere with your verbal narrative, and I did not actually realize there was music until I had watched the whole thing. BravO!
Whenever I encounter a pair of LDS missionaries, I always ask them about this event, and it's very consistent that one of them will be aware, and the other will be ignorant. My name is Bicycle Bob and I approved this message and one of the many visits I've made to this site, I saw a five foot Mojave green rattlesnake!
Hard to imagine something like this could happen, I don't think Justice was truly done, at least it doesn't sound like it. Thank You for the video. THE SARGE
Not at all. it's incredible that only person ever faced punishment for this.
@@SidetrackAdventures Agreed.
THE SARGE