Everything We Think We Know About Early Human History is Wrong | David Wengrow on Downstream
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- Опубликовано: 3 дек 2022
- Humans have existed for at least 200,000 years. Yet until recently, historians believed that cities, astronomy, architecture and numeracy did not arrive until agriculture emerged some 12,000 years ago. But what if that was wrong? What if cities existed before agriculture and our hunter gatherer ancestors enjoyed a far more complex existence than we thought? And if they did, then what are the implications for modern political theory - which justifies inequality on the basis that we live in a higher, more sophisticated form of society that was always inevitable? What if there were social revolutions before documented history? And what if humankind had engaged in innumerable experiments in how best to live - including ones that involved the rejection of what we would consider to be ‘civilisation’? Aaron Bastani discusses all of that, and more, with archaeologist and co-author of the bestselling ‘Dawn of Everything’ David Wengrow.
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The lighting and the shirt keeps making me think I'm watching an early episode of Star Trek.
Haha... same thought as soon as I saw it. Fortunately not red. They tend to not last the full duration.
Ensign Tiberius Pike
LOL. My first impression also.
also the content, specially for og star trek haha
He better hope he doesn't beam down with Kirk, spock and bones...cause if he does, he ain't coming back
BBC used to do good stuff like this. They may still do but BBC NEWS and politics have damaged their reputation. I don't switch the TV on
You're so right I can see old BBC docs on RUclips and they are extrordinarie ! Here in LA I stopped watching the boob tube a decade ago it's a waste land of political brainwashing ! Cheers
LoL I gaved mine away.
No TV ever again.
No radio.
Skipping all adds
Really choosing what I listen to.
Absolutely, me too.
100% spot on
With one exception.....I do like some sports. Otherwise TV is nearly unwatchable.
In a world of uncouth loud braying, it's always so refreshing to hear nuanced, carefully tuned replies full of empathy towards opposing viewpoints. Many scientists even fail to embue their criticism with such grace.
You'll find the "uncouth braying" we collectively give out (at least, the worst of us) is a 'design' or the result of malicious designs that disassembled what should have been graceful conversation, but has been reduced to political pop-media madness.
This 'design' or set of designs are inclined to all things horrible like greed lust egoism selfishness etc... we don't worship the loved one or even the self, we worship the pleasure and the dollar.
As a retired History and Politics teacher I am happy to say that I have rarely enjoyed a discussion so much. I ordered a copy of the. Book this morning and it arrived tonight. Sorry, I should have visited an independent book shop but I could not wait. Very inspirational. Thank you.
Buy another one at the local bookshop and return that one to the multinational.
@@lvr5266 Where I live, one can also borrow books from libraries and save trees.
@@lettersquash close them all down nowadays
@@ct-gt2dt I'm pretty sure you don't understand supply and demand. You don't think printers estimate how many books people are going to buy before they do a run? Your argument is like saying when you buy a computer at the shop it's already been built in runs in a factory, so we can ignore the plastics and metals used and the carbon dioxide that's been released to the atmosphere. It's an idiotic argument.
I knew a guy named piss balloon.
_"The ultimate hidden truth of the world is that it is something we make and could just as easily make differently."_ - the late great David Graeber
Aaaa hahaha aaaahaaa
Quite frankly this was just plain boring...
The great awakening of the people is close and the world will be very different once that occurs. The deceived will rise against their deceivers.
@@m1tanker391 🥱
FALSE "all the ways of a fool are right in his own eyes"
The discussions between the two Davids must have been mind-blowing. What a shame they couldn't both be here to be interviewed. But thank you Aaron, for introducing us to this intelligent, softly spoken, and insightful author and academic.
Yeah, they blew each others' minds....so no mind left.....damn..........such a pity............
@@shandytorok259 If you want a more useful criticism, you can borrow this one: "Graeber and Wengrow, with Dawn of Everything, have consummated in an epic gish gallop of both naivete and arrogance in pretending to be anthropologists, misrepresenting and mischaracterizing the actual body of work and scholars in the field to such an extent as to completely destroy their own credibility forevermore.
While pretending to take a liberal stance on "options for governance" they jettison the condition-based analysis of primitive societies in favor of post-modernist perspectives on freedom of choice in governance, an oxymoron of colossal proportions.
Whether the intention was to author a new Bible for fascists or merely line their pockets I have little doubt that they have left their souls impoverished as a consequence. (RIP Mr. Graeber, I pray your intents exceeded your efforts, regardless of moral direction.)
Unfortunately, those unfamiliar with the field will be courted endlessly by their rigorous contempt for authentic scholarship, painting experts as unilaterally patriachal (except for, Thank Marx, them), and such readers will undoubtedly swoon in their ignorance and hypnotic effect under such sophistry... as I was... before getting a friendly bump towards more experienced research and analysis."
~me and definitely not ChatGPT
This discussion reminds me of a story Buckminster Fuller related. Per Fuller, when Europeans first encountered Polynesians the islanders were mocked because their number system only contained two numbers (yet they navigated great distances between islands). Of course the laptop I'm typing on works on two numbers as well.
On this topic but implicating indigenous australians, 'Australian Aboriginal and Islander mathematics' (John Harris, 1987) is a great read and is interesting both from a linguistic and anthropological perspective !! should be freely available
Richard Buckminster Fuller, 7/12/1895 - 7/1/1983, an American architect, systems theorist, writer, designer, inventor, philosopher and futurist, developed numerous inventions, mainly architectural designs, and popularized the widely known geodesic dome.
The eljebra works with zero and one think to an arab mathematician called elkhawarzmi
Having worked with modern hunter gatherer and indigenous peoples all over the word I can confirm that all of them are just as intelligent as anyone, and more intelligent/skilled/kinder than most. I cant comment on the past however.
Indeed. We have to be kind of isolated to believe "we are the greatest" yet that is what most of us are. We adapt to the situation we're in, and find advanced ways to solve the problems that gives us, but ignore the rest.
lol i dont think anyone thought they were less intelligent. You seemingly just suprised your self
@@PazLeBon What a silly response! Did you even watch the video? You know nothing about me or my work yet still seem to feel entitled to cast judgement, well cast it against yourself and ask why you need to go around being a troll.
They were just the poor, like us.
@@haraldthiPaleolithic people couldn't survive in our environment and very very few humans would make it a month I'm the Paleolithic
Thank you Mr Bastani and Novara Media for this excellent interview. Great work Mr Wengrow, and heartened to hear you speak of David Graeber. Many of us miss his presence and intellect and are glad his remembrance lives on.
Downstream is Aarons schtick, long form one on one interviews addressing historical perspectives and putting them straight. ✨
I loved the book. These issues are crucial and absolutely need to be included in our current discussion about how we want to live as a society. The simple idea that there are choices...
_" how we want to live as a society "_
how to be that:
*...and those vadals killed the economy and every human only for warfare money...*
religious differences, class differences, financial differences. No way thngs will ever change for the better
@@PazLeBon Yes. All that is pushed top down. We have no clue or way to roll out a better way. But we do know a lot of the individuals pushing it down and do nothing to eliminate them.
Great video and I personally feel it’s insulting to our forefather's to think they just sat on the ass and picked berries for 200,000 years. I wonder how many advanced civilizations have come and gone over that timeframe.
Lol...I never thought of it as insulting, just felt some envy.
let's say that there were several iterations of technological human waves throughout history. and let's say that there are plausible reasons why there isn't compelling evidence of these waves.
why are we the first wave to exploit crude oil, not to mention electricity exploitation. like we have presently?
Open your mind .
@@gppizza8979necessity. In pre anthropocene eras there was more than enough game and resources to not need agriculture or a combustion engine
if they had any foresight they would have
Thank you so much for this fascinating interview with David Wengrow. A wise and humble man who has decided to impart his wisdom upon others. Students are fortunate to have a dedicated and knowledgeable teacher. The homage to David Graeber at the end of the interview was truly sad. RIP.
I've been reading Graeber's writings, and have already gotten my copy of His work with Wengrow. I found this interview stimulating, and thought that the host was exceptionally good - he offered great questions and kept an interesting conversation all the more so. Moreover, I found that not only does David Wengrow present himself as an excellent scientist, and teacher - but he is also a humble and wise soul as well. Such a well spent evening listening to this. Thank you for sharing - liked and subscribed!!
You praise the man, but say nothing about the subject. Do you accept this as true?
If you want to go further you are humble.
@@timhallas4275 there is also much more about this. It is very deep, I was decept about the questions.
@@tamo3041 "decept" ? what do you mean sir?
@@izmirtolga2625 rispondo in italiano: sono rimasta delusa dalle domande molto superficiali, ma credo debba essere così. Questo tizio? Si avrei gran piacere a parlarci e condividere pensieri.
I took a module in my history degree about pre-Columbian and Spanish America. We learned about how Tlaxcala had only recently been subjugated by the Aztecs, so was very happy to use the Spanish conquistadors to attack their hated enemy.
But I don't remember it being mentioned that they were a republic, had a parliament, or were a democracy.
Would love to read more on the subject.
Tell us about their individual rights.
You have the right to sacrifice a child, if you cannot afford a child one will be provided for you.
@@cannaroe1213Nailed!
@@cannaroe1213😂 that sounds like the Phoenicians too
@@cristianpopescu78Nailed what?
I had a professor in college say similar things. That our history was manufactured.
It is a product of deduction based on evidence. Nothing is written in stone .. either metaphorically or literally.
As long as you realise that there is a certain amount of political bias in the interpretation. The facts remain material. But it is at best, "disingenuous" to imply it is merely "manufactured" and risks wild and far fetched flights of fancy the like of which we see in those uncertain and darkest flung corners of the Internet today. And only goes to fuel the ever increasing propagation of the post truth society.
I mean it can't not be manufactured. People can only see so far as their axioms allow them. If your axiom of truth starts eith the idea that you are gods chosen people or some such funky idea its going to be very hard to see beyond that. If you grow up believing money has inherent value its going to be difficult to see somone not asking for money for their work to be mad ..and everyone is always coming from some perspective nobody is robotically aware of all the facts even in one small domain to logically appriase those facts without a perspective being overlaid.
Well yes, it’s difficult to see how it could be done any other way. (Journalism too, in the best of faith.) One can assemble a priori evidence but as soon as you then use that to produce an interpretation, you are inventing a narrative. It might even be “true” in the traditional sense of the word but it’s still a manufacturing process.
@stpancraschapel2136 literally everything is manufactured. Mathematics english literature history our vision when we look out of our eyeballs ...everything in your head is manufactured from a limited apprehension of reality into a story of what it is you're looking at.
Ikr, for everything we experience, we manufacture personal beliefs based on our limited knowledge, which we then often forget to review and test for accuracy.
The problem with theories like this that radically depart from the conventional wisdom is that almost everyone reacts to them in the wrong way. There are some that jump on immediately wholeheartedly and a a lot who reject out of hand. Most of these types of theories will turn out to be incorrect, but some will be true and the only way we can tell which these are is to interact with and discuss them without immediately jumping on one side or the other.
*hypotheses*
Iraqi dinar
You tell which ones are true by looking at the evidence. That has been done.
Yes, we should react to them with skepticism and an open mind. Before you we accept radical ideas that align with our politics we should try as hard as we can to prove them wrong.
David Graeber posited a lot of unconventional ideas about human history. I am not convinced because he didn't give much evidence or discussion his methodology so I can judge how rigorous it was.
The conventional wisdom is oftentimes wrong. You still believe a certain God passed down the words in the Bible through inspirations?
Aaron is one of the best journalists ever. It's always a pleasure to watch an ITW led by him.
As a fellow archaeologist, the book is incredible. Highly recommended.
Absolutely brilliant guest. David Wengrow is a joy to listen to.
he didn't say anything this was BS!!!
@@dumbvedeoz David Wengrow is a professor at one of the world's top universities and you are ....? If you want to disect his arguments then articulate your views and formulate a compelling argument. A one line "BS" dismissal is not enough.
This talk made me think deeper than I have in awhile. Thank you for your work. RIP David Graeber
If two scientists disagree on dark matter , does it make one of them a conspiracy theorist?
@@DrewBodsq
@@MartinMcAvoy my first thought...
Don't go too deep though, there is no way back when you go too deep............
@@MartinMcAvoy What is a jibbyjabby? Is that cockney slang?
I'm looking forward to this. I'm reading 'The dawn of everything' at the moment. A Wengrow fan via David Graeber.
For hundered of years we in the West have killed, tortured and enslaved other humans. We have totally destroyed other human cultures, their language, their Gods and even their food and clothes. The Bible, McDonalds and jeans was told to be the superior. We were told we constantly mooved forward to something better. Meanwhile aboriginal australiens say they were healthy, satisfied and lived good lives before their continent was invaded by "the superior" culture. How many people in the West are satisfied (=dont want more, more more goods/money/sex etc)
Just ordered the book. Fascinating conversation. More of this please, Novara.
I am reading it right now, and I am not impressed. The whole narrative comes off as very arrogant, i.e. 'Everything We Think We Know About Early Human History is Wrong'. The first few chapters are devoted to attacking anyone who has written on this topic in the last 400 years. There are definitely interesting tidbits here and there, but they often contradict themselves, and make conclusions based on shacky assumptions and anecdotal evidence. They admonish others for making assumptions about ancient hunter gathers based on modern hunter gatherers, then they do the same thing. They assume Life among the Amazon Tribes must be better than modern society based on a sample size of one girl who was kidnapped by the Yanomami, then escaped 20 years later, could not adapt to modern life, so went back to the Yanomami. They then back this up with more anecdotal evidence from Benjamin Franklin. They do have good points to make, but their approach has been a turn off for me.
Main lesson for me: question everything! And look for new information.
So good, so interesting and important, too...and as a bonus, pure ASMR. Thank you for doing this interview - and sharing it.
Ah man! you done and did it, reading "The dawn of everything' at the mo and it's game changing. Great shout with getting David on!
Another great interview. So interesting. Thanks Novara.
Giving up agriculture isn't as surprising as it sounds. Compared with hunting and gathering, agriculture allows a lot higher densities of population at the cost of much more labour. It's not something people adopt because it makes them happy, but something they adopt to stave off mass starvation for a while. If population levels got greatly reduced by some kind of disaster, or if climate change made it easier to live by hunting and gathering, then you can imagine agriculture becoming temporarily unattractive.
most of us wont personally kill an animal and a growing number wont allow others to kill for them
@@IntergalacticDustBunny Well our intelligence and knowledge has continued to develop so it makes sense that eventually we will value all life as equally precious
@@PazLeBonBETA!
Excellent and very interesting discussion…I have heard a lot about David’s book but wasn’t sure if I was quite ready to tackle it…but I think now I will.
What a coincidence. Started his book this week. Incredible stuff! Thanks for this. :)
Thank you for shining a light on this book and interviewing David. The moment I was done listening to this book I listened to it again and then again. I'm going for my fourth read because I am going to memorize every wonderful story and point they make. What a time to be a human! Despite the message that we humans don't change up our government like we did in the old days - in fact - it is more flexible than ever, for people who have the means and the knowledge. But that is another story ...
And this is why I left university, too much gaslighting, I couldn't have chosen it over my own mental health.
Thank you very much for the honesty.
Graham Hancock has been banging this drum for decades.
No, Graham Hancock has taken other peoples work and woven a wild science-fiction narrative from it to sell books. He's an extremely talented bullshit artist.
That was a fascinating and thought-provoking discussion. Many thanks to you both.
Just another con....nothing fascinating about it.....
What was thoughtprovoking in this discussion? There was nothing new at all? No new ideas, not even a hint to the controversy in Egyptology going on these days.
@@perjanuschas8050 Well, it provoked my thoughts. And perhaps Wengrow finds that he doesn't need to refer to Egyptology to make his arguments. Have you actually read his book?
This is quality content. Thank you Novara for opening up this vein in my brain.
Oh no! Listening to this podcast gave you a stroke? Heal up quick!
Quality content? So you think this guy is right?
@@timhallas4275 I’m curious, what’s the purpose of a comment like this? Attempting to open an honest dialog? Defending an orthodoxy? Troll?
Who benefits from presenting false choices?
Ponderously slow
@@stvbrsn My comment was directed to the op... troll.
I stumbled on this and was half expecting a Gonzo Hancock rant of thoroughly dubious veracity. What a delight to hear such a switched on, thoughtful, modest yet deeply informed discussion throwing a genuinely refreshing light on archaeology proper.
@@cl1ntonbodycount652 Hancock is either paranoid or dishonest. I guess he's a good self publisher and tells good fantasy stories and tells them interestingly. His belief in beyond the fringe long discredited ideas like Atlantis is amusing enough and one could argue that while there is no reasonable argument to support the idea of of an Atlantis that ever existed - even the original source, Plato, is self contradictory and may not have believed himself what he wrote - and everything about the accounts are anachronistic and geographically inaccurate one might argue Atlantis represents some vague idea of something we haven't found yet, and fair enough, neither is there any decent evidence to support the fancy.
His dishonesty, though, is in representing archaeology as some edifice invested in discrediting true inquiry and closing ranks to shut him up. This is complete rubbish. One might think such things of the multibillion dollar oil or pharmaceutical industries, but most archaeology is done by passionate people on a shoestring budget and, like David Wengrow here, are mostly careful methodical thinkers genuinely interested in what we can learn about the past,
At best, Hancock is a ringleader in his own private circus.
The most important nonfiction book in my lifetime (58 years). All credit to Wengrow, but Graeber changed my life. That he died so young is unutterably tragic. Graeber's book on this history of debt is equally awesome.
This was a very fascinating and thought-provoking interview. I will read his book. Though not entirely convincing, it certainly made some very valid points to be debated - and challenged - further. One of the recurring themes observed over my lifetime is that the study of history (in its widest sense) moves towards conclusions that chime with the cultural and political themes of a given time. Hypotheses emerge that reflect contemporary debate and this discussion was, at least to an extent, an example of this. Thank you Novara for this excellent content.
Yes facinating and some truth but what u say about historical analysis gelling with current ideology ,so true. I am very interested in end of Roman Britain and advent of the Saxon's etc. Yes the Victorian invasion and slaughter no longer seen as valid but now it's the other extreme where there was no violence at all ,being pushed. And clearly improbable.
To me it's a natural development, as we take hold of those pieces of information that seems interesting to us in the problem solving that we are currently at. The rest of the available information is too much to have a grasp on, so we let it be.
Great comment. Most facts of history are totally accurate but the overall narrative is largely false. We live in a short term medium age, not as dark as some times, but we are not the most advanced human civilization to have walked the earth
You can read Billy Meier's writings for free.
David Wengrow. You are doing such excellent work. Graeber he’s looking down from on high, applauding and bowing to you. Your clarity and ability to communicate such beautiful and subtle nuance behind these revolutionary commonsense human theories it’s so important, edifying and calming. Your gentle incredibly well informed ministration of these lofty topics is such a gift to all of us, to all of humanity. Thank you, sincerely. Bravo. Onward. Thankful 👏👏👏😌🙏❤️ Great Job, Aaron !
As a forager, bushcrafter with a huge facination in deep time and the intelligence and ingenuity of "hunter-gatherer" peoples ... this was hugely self-indulgent of me! Lots and lots confirming my intuition but very happy to hear the details and confirmations.
I'm enjoying the book very much already too =)
Lots to talk about tracking, memory, etc ... I'm only halfway through the interview too thought so I'll not pre-empt too much ;) I do hope Wengrow is on Bluesky.
Wow, new knowledge on the horizon. Congrats & thanks!
Absolutely fantastic, David does a great job presenting his and David Graeber's work.
Wonderful interview! I love these in depth discussions (I loved the Chris Packham and Oliver Bullough ones too), and this one especially, as I read the Davids' book Dawn of Everything this summer past, so it was great to hear a discussion of the book's main topics. I keep recommending the book to people, but am now able to share this, which is a much better recommendation!
On the pseudo archeology topic. I think that part of it is a difference in interest. In this interview the interest is sociological, what were the habits behaviors and social structures of prehistory and how can we learn from them. If your interest is technology you may focus on buildings structure monuments and speculate specifically about them and how they were done. The difference in interests leads to the difference in focus and a desire towards alternative interpretations of history.
Seemed like a basic conversation for the time we live in
Wasn't impressed
Was saying the video was basic! Your comment was more interesting 😊
With what we’re learning of global cataclysms, it is hard to rule out the possibility that there have been periods of advanced human development, perhaps multiple times, over the past several hundred thousand years.
Yet, we have never found anything "advanced" hundred of thousand years old.
Nothing like our current civilization. You will be able to see our mark on the planet forever. A billion years from now some future evolved species will dig down through the geological reccord and find the compressed boundry layer of our civilization marking the start of the 6th mass extinction.
YOU havent found anything. Grow up@@PATRICKJLM
Not really that hard to exclude that possibility when we have no evidence for it ...be very hard to have such Ana danced civilization that you disassembled your entire city and any evidence of it or of the systems nessisary to support it during a cataclysm!
I concur
We might also have a wrong idea of hunter gatherer societies because most of the ones around today (or in recent times) were pushed to less productive ecosystems (at least for humans). In fact, even in historical times there were some hunter-gatherer (or fisher-gatherer) societies which lived a semi-sedentary life. For example in the Pacific-Northwest.. they had villages in which they lived a good part of the year, going to other sites on a seasonal basis to exploit certain maritime resources. They had hereditary chiefs, slaves, etc.
Not sure if you're referencing the book, but this is discussed in the early chapters of the book. That we assume hunter gatherers in history lived in rubbish places, because thats where they live now.
Another example could be Papua New Guinea where a plane flying over the island's highlands in the 1930's discovered the existence of stone age people no one had any idea were there. And not just a couple of sparse bands, but the population was estimated to be as high as a million! With those numbers, impossible everyone was purely nomadic, and indeed there was some agriculture and interaction among groups.
Yes. The “set” of cave symbols that are more numerous in caves than animal images - only a couple of dozen symbols but spread over at least two or three continents - definitely shows a shared stream of culture. There are other places where a fairly sedentary hunter-gatherer life was possible. More recently the people living on the banks of the Danube, catching enormous sturgeon at certain times of year, weaning their children in fish roe, and hunting in forested hinterland.
You can only poop in one place for so long without sewer systems before you have to move somewhere else.
@@bearthalamas9241 Wrong.
. Really enjoyed this interview. A pleasure to hear such eloquence. It's a sublime book. Mind blowing. The work of two beautiful minds . Two beautiful Davids. Thanks Aaron , great interview (your mind's also equally beautiful, of course)
still can't get over David Graeber's passing, we're missing such a brilliant mind. I cried the day I found out he passed. Good on Dabid Wengrow for bringing their amazing book's idea forward!
Fascinating. Subbed. Can't wait to see what other conversations are on this channel, if this was anything to go by...
1:00:22 - While I am inclined to accept expert information (once I've assessed the source for myself), to have lived on this world over the last 4 years and still be able to blindly accept people labelling themselves "Expert" and using religious mantras like "Follow the Science", would be nothing short of foolish.
This is one of the most fascinating interviews I've ever watched.
Thanks for this, really great conversation, and the book itself is brilliant: really thought-provoking, liberating isn't too strong a word.
Fascinating interview, I am going to order that book right now. It reminds me of debates I have had about Aboriginal Australia. There is a continuity of art and culture lasting 60,000 years. I have found many people are irritated when I call this a "civilization" but what we call "civilization" in Australia is less than 300 years old, 0.1% as old as Aboriginal civilization. Manifestly, our "civilization" is rapidly destroying the planet and will not last for another 100 years, perhaps not even 50, or at least not without complete transformation. We are unable to think about deep time. Our modern obsession with novelty and a dogma of constant progress and economic growth has blinded us.
Yes. It goes back to how the West was developed.
It unanimously abandoned the cultures and traditions of ancestors for religious ones, then it abandoned those for material ones, and it is destroying them as the world begins to change against the circumstances that allowed that development.
You can see it every time they encounter a people that has those cultures and traditions, because they know those peoples, and they are all over the world, will survive this change, and they will never be in this dominating position again once the collapse is completed.
"Obsession with novelty and a dogma of constant progress and economic growth has blinded us". Don't you see the eloquence of Bush Economic Plan of post 9/11; Shop til one drops! Don't you shop?
The world is empirically better in almost every way than it was 50 years ago. Habitat destruction is about the only thing that’s gotten considerably worse.
Exponential growth cannot be sustained on a finite planet with a declining population.
The "appearance of exponential growth" can be extended by using propaganda and disinformation to fool an ignorant, uninterested and "asleep" population.
Allowing the Top 1% to extract more of the valuable resources and capital until the whole civilization collapses. Probably very rapidly accompanied by the collapse of the rule of law.
And a revolution and bloody fighting until new governments are formed.
But he's having people think Aborigines had knowledge of the rest of the world. They really don't.
His holistic explanation of pseudoarchaeology is excellently thought out. Very interesting interview.
why are we still stuck. intellectually in the 1700's? A: our history is written as a means of control, not an actual accounting, universities are where knowledge goes to die and become embalmed, when they say; " the birth of agriculture" it means the start of commercial, large scale, artificial agriculture. indigenous peoples were always planting, tending and harvesting, just not in a monoculture grid.
for real
I was watching this while ironing, had to stop the ironing and watch this fascinating discussion. Congratulations on this, out to get the book later today. Wonderful stuff!
This is the best thing I’ve ever seen on you tube I’m going to buy the book. Been interested in history of early humans and this seems to try to answer some of these questions great show thanks ❤
Super fascinating. Eloquent presentation and critique as well. Thanks!
Really enjoyed this! (Nerdy confession: I watched it twice.) David Wengrow is a very engaging speaker. I got The Dawn of Everything for Xmas last year and loved it. So refreshing to hear alternative theories of history that are well-researched and supported by ample evidence.
He mumbles
People like this raise my hopes on Humanity. Thank you both for this interview!
really? they keep you colonized...
money addicts are *NOT* "humanity" ...quite the opposite, actually.
such an interesting and well conducted interview
Graeber and Wengrow made an extraordinary contribution to our understanding of human history. As an always interested person in history, archeology and anthropology, these fresh, "out of the box" ideas makes me so happy, since I had always struggled with the mainstream theories. Thank you very much to give us a hope that we may re-write history in a much real way❤
Thank you for this incredibly edition of Downstream Aaron, fascinating, mind-blowing and tantalising! I should have known about this book. I do now and I'm going to start reading it immediately. Thank you David Wengrow and David Graeber, RIP.
I'm privileged for being able to watch this
Thankyou Aaron this the best ever , I am now going to look into forensic architecture thanks to your interview
Really interesting interview, thank you.... My only issue was I had problems hearing Aaron's input at times.
This is fantastic, more like this please and thanks
love it when Aaron does history
What a great speaker David is. Love the book, loved this interview.
The United States gets a different version of the BBC than Britain does.
You should include a reading list in the description of these dialogues. Very insightful.
Cereal growing in a fairly damp environment in the UK would most likely have led to a lot of failed harvest and famine, heavy rainfall destroys cereal crops, damp causes toxic moulds etc, I think it was dropped because it didn't work, saying that I think the book is extremely interesting and enjoyed this interview immensely
I reckon They ate loads of hazelnuts meat , fish and mushrooms over winter.... the cereals came later for bread and beer and forage and bedding for the animals geese etc... if it was a good year for cereals it was a bonus. Storing grain would have been a lot more difficult so came a lot later, initially cereals must have been a bonus nothing more, unless you lived in more predictable weather. Rust on cereals can be controlled with milk products though
I can't quite tell when this is supposed to have happened either. There was a migration of Indo-Europeans into Britain somewhere in that period that may have affected the shift as well. And evidence of a shift more to pastoralism than back to hunting and gathering. Which might fit with descendants of steppe nomads moving in.
it could have been a result of climate cooling after the Holocene climate optimum peak (the warmest period during the current interglacial, warmer then today) which forced the inhabitants to switch to pastoralism, coupled with the yamnaya-derived invasion of the first (pre-Celtic) Indo-Europeans, who appear to have largely replaced the previous population (of mostly Neolitic farmers with some WE hunter-gatherers) based on genetic evidence
@@pavelandel1538 That's why a time would be useful. That climate optimum seems to have been ending about the right time. There was also a big population decline across Europe, generally attributed to plagues, over roughly the same timespan. And then migrations off the steppes. Somewhere in there, this supposed switch away from cereal agriculture. Without knowing which bits came first, it's really hard to talk about why. If agriculture continued right up until the pastoralists arrived, that's one answer. If it's associated with a big climate change or with population drops due to disease, those are others.
But if you ignore all the other things going on, it's easy to reinforce the idea that "sometimes they just decide to stop doing agriculture". (And even then to imply it was back to HG, rather than to herding.)
Grain suffered the same in medieval Europe which had periods of colder, wetter weather followed by outbreaks of ergot poisoning with horrific consequences.
"we've become more enclosed over time" what a great point.
This is so strange to me. The way he characterizes what "we Europeans" say about the ancient past is completely foreign to me (a German, which certainly counts as European). I don't think I've *ever* seen or heard a comparison of those people with pre-human primates. That's so absurd! And of course, we know very little about the time before humans started to write things down. Though we know astonishingly much about some after that point. (A dog walks into a bar ... or a customer complaint about substandard product ... absolutely the same kind of people as live today!)
Hmm. Nation states. becoming more enclosed. You know, I live in the Schengen Area, and as such, my experience has been the opposite. Maybe the real problem is trying to pour all of history (and pre-history) into one, all-encompassing, linear growth (or shrink) framework when actually, it's comprised of many small pieces where the directions of those developments change from piece to piece.
Hmm. I'd argue that science actually emerges exactly from those "other systems of knowledge", by noticing how much they got wrong and looking for ways to improve them (those ways are today known as the "scientific method"). And I'd argue that while there were no lab coats (though sometimes religious robes), there were certainly laboratories, that is, spaces where people experimented - usually parts of their normal workspaces. Everybody has likely experienced experiments with food preparation in the kitchen. We know about Galen's pig bladder experiments, for example. Shiths, and before them, stone knappers, certainly experimented to come up with all the advanced techniques they ended up with. Farmers with grain and animals. Hunters with hunting techniques. Gatherers with gatherable plants. That's sort of obvious.
Hmm. I think I've heard enough from Captain Kirk, here. G'bye!
I don't know why this year-old video is popping up in our feeds again, but my BS-detector is maxxed out by this guy. The fact that cities pre-dated agriculture is well known, yet he presents it as his own amazing new idea. Then he misinterprets it. After a little Googling, I think he's just a political activist with an academic hustle. "Capitalism is bad, and I can prove it with psuedoscience". Meh.
Exactly the way technologies build on each other, combining discoveries by neighbors & experimenters.
We have come a long way in a couple thousand years. It’s not unreasonable to think there were other civilisations that came and went in the previous 100K years.
Come a long way?! The civilisation of Simone de Boulevard......😵
Previous 100M years.
Made me wonder why he seemed to disparage pseudo archeology. After all, the evidence comes via photographs from space rather than a dig, or from stone experts who say archaeologists explanations for how someone made of fine vase out of granite don't stack up...
@@simonruszczak5563 Homo homo sapiens are 200,000 years old.
@@jamesragsdale8202 Humans have evolved and gone extinct many times over tens of millions of years, our civilisation and species is not special.
Wonderful session. More like this please :-)
When I was a little boy I wanted to be a cop, a fireman, an astronaut, and an archeologist after I saw the first Indiana Jones movie. Archeologist seemed like a very action filled and exciting occupation.
i just wanted to be footballer, I thought that was what every boy wanted :)
When I was a little boy I wanted to be a girl as they always got preferencial treatment and seamed to get away with all sorts of wild behavior. So glad I didn't grow up in today's society as I would have been destroyed in lieu of outgrowing that absurd faze I went through.
Well it's not. I like Indiana Jones films but he's a terrible archaeologist. He's a tomb raider. The scenes in which he causes destruction of rare, beautiful and unique statues and archictecture are the total opposite of archaeology. I have a B.A. in Archaeology and have worked on 14 archaeology and paleontology digs, including one in Egypt. I'm a paleontologist now but still love ancient history.
@@granthurlburt4062 I think you have taken my comment a little to literately😁
I have always been fascinated with archaeology, astronomy and how we came to have the religious teachings that have evolved into the belief systems we have today. This led me on an amazing journey to understand what experts in other disciplines are making of our past.
You can't leave this research only to Archaeologists Aaron. Listen to them yes but then ask the opinion of Geologists like Randall Carlson and Engineers like Christopher Dunn. Ask them all how the beautiful 30,000 granite pots and vases, found under the step pyramid, were made and how the huge granite underground boxes in the Serapeum were made.
This was incredible Aaron and Novara. I could listen to David Wengrow all day. Amazing content guys! Keep up the good work!
How old is this video?
Absolutely mind blowing and makes such sense. Brilliantly explained by David. Thanks for uploading, Aaron.
Fabulous interview.
From what I read and hear archaeologists are finding new information, often using modern tech, and moderating what they think. Its what makes science such fun.
I feel something missing here is that farming does indeed seem to appear around 12 kya. But we have a lot of evidence for horticulture, and "garden farming", subsistence, small scale styles of food cultivation etc. happening for thousands and thousands of years before that.
Not that I'm aware of. What crops were these "garden farmers" growing?
We've got evidence of the transition and the beginnings of domestication and selection of crops in the thousands of years before farming really gets started, which might be what you're thinking of. Basically still gathering, but starting to change the crops with some tending or incidental selective dispersal of preferred seeds.
I think the point is that "plow agriculture" isn't somehow the pinnacle of food cultivation. (Actually it depletes the soil.) People experimented with cultivating crops in many places and using many methods that don't fit the kind of agriculture, often considered a more advanced "stage" of civilization, seen in Europe ~12000 BCY. The stageist view is: first agriculture, then cities. The archaeological record shows a far more complex picture, with many sites that have very large populations before the so-called agricultural revolution.
@@spencerharmon4669 I'm still curious what agricultural crops are being talked about pre-12,000 BCY.
@Spencer Harmon what archaeological sites are you referring to and what sizes were they in terms of populations?
@@paintsilj for example the sites of the Cucuteni-Trypillia. An old-european (pre-PIE) culture that had no signs of organised farming. in fact they had no signs of social stratification at all. and they had communities the size of the Mesopotamian city-states, thousands of years before.
Brilliant! Thanks for bringing this guest!
I often wonder how the dna of Aztecs and Mayans fits in with the plan of things such as where they evolved from the line of humans out of Neanderthals....
ONE OF THE BETTER CHANNELS OR 1 OF THE BESTIST ! THANK YOU FOR SOME INTELLIGENT COMUNES ...
I left uni despite getting firsts in political philosophy because it drove me crazy that no one would acknowledge that it was built on nonsense. I even got called ‘disruptive’ for constantly questioning! How can you be a disruptive thinker in a university?
Critical thinking and universities have been mutually exclusive for almost a decade.
Because the professor can’t give you answers unless they’re written down in a book written by someone else. Most just want you to follow the same thought processes they did.
have you heard of the 5 monkys experiment ? @@Whoishere2333
Scholarship is built on "disrupting" established thinking. But you do need to convince others of the strength of your ideas through meticulous published research.
Sorry you didn't stay long enough to learn that. But it's okay. Academia is insanely competitive and underpaid. You would never make it by simply being disagreeable. That's not enough.
You can get away with being disagreeable after you've persuaded some of your opponents through the strength of your research. But most scholars prefer the easier route: be agreeable while quietly working at alternate theories until you get there.
There's ways of going about things. Don't forget the Kruger-Dunning effect.
Having done farming, hunting, and wild crafting I am convinced that success at farming requires more knowledge and skill than any other livelihood but hunting gathering.
boooooo
Fantastic interview. It's a crying shame that the other David is no longer with us.
The Davids book IS intellectually earth shattering. I am reading it again. I appreciate this interview, Mr. Navara, you are a deep thinker and i thoughtful communicator, thank you for your work.
"intellectually earth shattering"
Oh my... are you sure it´s not a synapse meltdown, caused by a meteorite of wisdom? Let´s figure out what´s the best exaggeration :)
@@Grievance87 lol intelligence is certainly relative anyway, can a 32bit pc be amazed by the 64bit one is a question i ponder
Could listen forever. Brilliant discussion & bang on the money to enhance my modern history teachings here in France. Quoting Rousseau is always a great quick fix to get students neurones dancing, I shall definitely be finding a copy of the book and no doubt quoting David in future years. Thank you !
Pol Pot, having studied Rousseau in France, murdered a third of Cambodians,including eyeglass-wearers because they may have read books.
@@TeaParty1776 Pot was nuts: but the kind of nuts that American foreign policy likes, reducing the populace to the level of workers without any say in policy. It's the same old same old; Europeans have this Immense Egotistical Need to disguise their infantile need for control under some 'ism' label while imposing their childish desires upon everyone possible.
Sometimes through willing agents. Hey, how _DID_ a guy in a nation that didn't produce guns, bullets _OR_ tanks or bombs manage to shoot & bomb his way into power & maintain it anyway? Oh, right, that second thing I said.
@@choosecarefully408 > Pot was nuts: but the kind of nuts that American foreign policy likes, reducing the populace to the level of workers without any say in policy.
Evasion causes stupidity needed to rationalize the evasion. The claim that the communist, Pot, was consistent w/the anti-communist US foreign policy is beyond bizarre. Ideas are the basic cause of politics. Evading ideas encourages conspiracy theories.
@@TeaParty1776 I'm not sure what you're saying here because I'm not referring to anyone's isms. I never do because experience has shown me that people choose what they want, then try to rationalize that through isms, not the other way 'round.
You're right about the last part. Most people feel a desperate need to 'know' everything & when they feel that they're being lied to, they start seeing everything said by those they feel are lying as lies. This is perfectly childish. It's what we all go through in our teens with our parents. (I'm constantly stunned that I've never read of any cultural practice that brings us out of this).
But this doesn't apply to me. I'm not saying that I have _NO_ preconceived notions, simply that I am usually aware of them & have the ability to set them aside.
I'm a terrible researcher, though Noam Chomsky has referred to pro-Pol Pot statements made in the press by various U.S. foreign policy figures & at least one president. Then there is the "who armed him" question that I raised indirectly.
It's the same thing as in Africa: out of nowhere a rebel army armed well enough to take out the reigning government appears even though that reigning government does not leave such things lying around or to be purchased at your local K-Mart or Crazy Eddy's Discount Arms Emporium. A little logic helps one realize that someone is supplying arms to the person or people using them. Isms need not apply.
@@choosecarefully408 > I'm not sure what you're saying here because I'm not referring to anyone's isms
I'm not sure what you're saying here
> people choose what they want, then try to rationalize that through isms, not the other way 'round.
Yes, people choose first. But ideology is political and social philosophy split from the fundamental branches of philosophy. Ideology is a need of the minds function in guiding survival action. Contra Pragmatism, man needs an intellectual framework, if only primitive myth, for the use of his mind. A disintegrated mind cannot guide survival action. Of course, many ideologies are false.
> Most people feel a desperate need to 'know' everything & when they feel that they're being lied to, they start seeing everything said by those they feel are lying as lies.
When people are ignorant of any ideas that guide history and politics, they use conspiracy. Conspiracies exist, of course, but,relative to ideas, their influence is tiny. But a false explanation is better than intellectual chaos, thus, religion, traditionalism, communism, etc. Conservatism , despite its weaknesses, is sustainable. Subjectivism is not. Thus, eg, Roman Stoicism was replaced by Christianity.
DIM Hypothesis-Leonard Peikoff; Western history as basically the effect of various philosophical methods of using the mind.
>I'm not saying that I have NO preconceived notions
So you know reality prior to knowing reality?! As Mr. Spock would say, "Fascinating!"
>[I] have the ability to set them aside.
Youre psychotic or a brute, instinctual animal?! Fascinating!
>Noam Chomsky has referred to pro-Pol Pot statements made in the press by various U.S. foreign policy figures & at least one president.
I have never heard of this. However, post-WW2, US foreign policy (and maybe earlier), has been a short-range, anti-ideological, contradictory, Pragmatist chaos. So who knows?! Biden supports Ukraine w/no principled defense. Trump told North Korea's, Kim, that he "loved" him.
As 60s rocker, Marianne Faithfull, so tartly warbled, "We''ve been trying to get high without having to pay." Europe's anti-energy policies required Russian energy, thus funding the foreseeable, Ukraine invasion. The US didnt predict the forseeable Russian attack on Ukraine utilities. Im assuming it was not a perverse policy. US WW2 bombing of German utilities seriously hurt German defenses and morale. Dont forget Shermans march thru Georgia.
Your comment about Africa is obscure. On the other hand, why is the US fighting in Africa?! Do they have long-range, nuke spears?! Inquiring minds want to know.
Its a damned good thing that the US military is globally dominant. Our foreign policy is...wait, we dont have a policy. Even the Pragmatist, Kissinger, said that all we had was a "response to cables," ie, to unpredicted emergencies. Wikipedia lists many post-Soviet wars to regain lost territories. Ukraine was predictable. Hell, Pearl Harbor was predictable from 1930s newspaper headlines screaming war. The lack of US intell coordination was trivial. May you live in interesting times...
The idea that humans would take 100,000 yrs+ to work out growing crops and building machines is just ludicrous. Way more likely that we've lived in waves of civilisations of various kinds.
Except for the total lack of evidence of any such waves of civilization. And the pretty decent evidence of long, slow development even of the basic early stone tool kits.
Why is that ludicrous? We know that humans in Australia went a good 50,000 years without ever doing it. Maybe a few people started down that path and everyone else told them to knock it off because it was a bad idea?
You're replacing the past false assumption of "people 100,000 years ago were too stupid to invent technology" with what I see as an equally false one: that if humans have the innate intelligence to invent and adopt a certain technology they will necessarily do it.
'Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." -Carl Sagan
Not all theories are equal. Scientists are likely to accept a new or modified theory if it explains everything the old theory did and more. The process of theory change will take time and involve controversy, but eventually the scientific explanation that is deemed more accurate will be accepted.
You have to tear down the A before you can build up the B. You have to break down what people think they know before they can listen to another posibility.
Cataclysmic events happened frequently throughout history.. Keeps bringing us back to basics.
No.
Just the one overarching climate problem that inhbited long term stability and growth.
Put down the bible and step slowly away from it.
Real life cataclysms don't work that way.
Way back before we had large nations bound by an overarching control (monarchy or empire) the largest singular entities were city states like Uruk or Shuruppak.
Within that kind of structure a single bad river flood could destroy the whole thing and disperse its population along the river basin - which is almost certainly the origin of the original Mesopotamian flood myth from which the Noah and Gilgamesh flood myths are derived.
Less well known is that all of Canaan was in fact a neighbor of Mesopotamia, and further back during the times of the Akkadian empire it was actually part of its territory - so the spread of that ancient river flood myth to Canaan and its associated cultures like Israel and Judea is very likely.
Contrary to how the bible/Torah presents it the kingdom of Israel was in fact a Canaanite nation from the outset, just as its language that persists to this day is in fact Canaanite in origin.
jeez! Finally! Loved their work
It's really fascinating that you're going to work with Forensic Architecture. Really looking forward to see the project you're doing together on Ukraine. I'll definitely go check their conference in Germany that you mentioned. Their work is just fantastic!
I believe a culture he may have been referring to in that context would be 'Cucuteni', whose geographical footprint went beyond current day Ukraine. If memory serves me, they've never found any weapons, yet material remains are abundant. Stefan Milo did a video on it if you'd like to get some foreknowledge. Stefan's a good vulgarizer, not a pseudo-archeologist and has no pretentions in that sense.
Watch some videos on Jon Levi RUclips channel and it will open your eyes .
Thank you for answering many questions to me and raising new ones.
I was always wondering about many prehistorical instances and just wasn't satisfied with data available.
This talk gave me new perspectives and I more then appreciate it.
Your approach is refreshing.
Great talk, thank you guys!
David Wengrow is an amazing scholar, studied his work at univeristy and it is some of the most detailed and careful research i read. His book The Archaeology of Early Egypt: Social Transformations in North-East Africa, c.10,000 to 2,650 BC is incredibly beautifully illustrated and suprisingly readable for an academic work. It will totally change the way you think about Ancient Egypt.
I believe him studying theater has helped him tremendously with communication.
@@professorrhyyt3689 - Another favorite scholar of mine is the psychologist Julian Jaynes. He left academia for a while to work as a playwright. It was maybe his non-academic experience that led him to a larger perspective. He quickly lost interest in behaviorism research and ended up writing a book that looked far beyond conventional psychology, including studying the evidence about the early humanity.
@@ario4795 What do you mean "ambiguos"? Egypt is located in Africa.
@@ario4795
But ironically you use the term European.
Were the Greeks “European” or Middle Eastern?
Asian isn’t a race either.
I imagine you don’t consider Nubia, Kush or modern Sudan, Eritrea/Ethiopia to be “African” either.
Strange aroma coming from your comment.
@@NoLefTurnUnStoned. , they not Africa is continent not gene. Cushitic people and native middle eastern share dna and linguistic.
Wait, did I just find out that, around the time stone henge was built, the UK rejected farming practices from Europe and went back to foraging? Like a Neolithic proto-brexit?
lmao, then half the population died of mushroom fever having only ever tried the magic ones previously
With the exception being that they where probably well informed about what they where doing, rather than led by a bunch of anarcho-capitalist billionaires to cut their own noses off!
In the Paleolithic Levant, 23,000 years ago, cereals cultivation of emmer, barley and oats has been researched near the sea of Galilee by the Ohalu II.
I'm halfway through the book and really enjoying it. It's great to put a face and a voice to one of the authors and hear such measured and graceful replies to the questions.
Excellent. Thank you so much for this.