Will a cheap record player DESTROY your vinyl?
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- Опубликовано: 28 авг 2016
- No.
Important footnotes: (click Show More)
* I am in no way advocating the purchase of Crosley Cruiser record players. They sound terrible and better choices are available in the same price range. I'm just disproving the claim that they will "destroy" or "chew up" records. In normal use and with proper care, your records will be fine.
* BSR record changers were the Crosleys of their day; they were lambasted by audiophiles as "record grinders", because many of them had tracking forces similar to the cheap record players of today -- but yet, if you've ever listened to a used record from the '60s through '80s, chances are it was played on a BSR or similarly crude record player at some point in its life, and yet was not "destroyed".
* I take "destroyed" or "chewed up" to mean a record that has become unplayable and unlistenable due to skipping or extreme distortion; not merely to mean the scratchiness typical of "well-loved" records. When faced with a scratchy record, most people just turn down the tone control and continue to play it.
* The elliptical styli favored by audiophiles will cause excessive record wear at tracking forces much above 3 grams, so 3 to 3.5 grams is frequently cited as the maximum safe tracking force for all turntables. However, the conical or spherical styli used by inexpensive record players and "DJ" cartridges can apply higher tracking forces without any significant risk of excessive wear. When stereo LPs first came out, 5 to 6 grams was cited as the maximum safe tracking force, as compared to the 10 to 12 grams that was typical of older monaural record players!
* As I mentioned in the video, the LP I used for my test has very low groove modulation, causing surface noise to be much more audible. Modern LPs and 12-inch singles are cut much louder, enough to drown out the surface noise of all but the most extreme tracking forces I used during my test.
* Some audiophiles have defended their overblown claims by saying that the damage caused by a cheap record player will only be audible on a "good" turntable, because on a Crosley the fidelity is so low that you wouldn't be able to hear it. But other tests have disproven this; see Record Raid's video "Will cheap turntables damage your records?": • Will cheap turntables ... 
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If you are so worried about a record being damaged by a record player that is not "high-end" then the solution is simple - NEVER play your record AT ALL, and play the goddamned CD version of it instead. As has been noted by many on these comments, simply playing a record once - even on a high-end player - will cause some damage, which will not be noticeable at first. Vinyl was once declared dead, but now that it has been revived by millennials, the snobbery of owning an expensive piece of equipment to play them on has reared its ugly head. Enjoy life and enjoy listening to a record on whatever you can afford. There are worse things in the world to worry about. And part of the charm of listening to a record over a CD is that surface noise and those scratch clicks, which apps now ironically "simulate" anyway.
Wait, I know what you're thinking... "what's a CD?"
The thing is I like vinyl just for the feel, yes it is big and not user friendly at all compared to cd's but when I listen to vinyl I always just sit down and stare at the record spinning. This usually results in me really listening to the actual music itself instead of using it as background noise, it also sometimes results in me falling asleep XD. Though my records are clean and I do not experience any pop or hiss, and I like some of my original old versions of albums because some remastered stuff is just horribly mixed. But yes CD's sound better but I generally hate remastered stuff and the loudness wars era albums. Though I also have shitton of cd's, watching my cd player is a lot less fun than watching a record XP
Or just get a line contact profile stylus. forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/question-how-many-plays-before-vinyl-audibly-degrades.140778/
Me, i don’t care about clicks and pops, but what makes for a bad listening experience is when a record has a lot of distortion, either due to shit QC in the mastering/pressing or damage from a previous owner
personally my interest in vinyl is just my obsession with the technology, the beauty of a stereo, and I think it's nice to be able to actually *hold* and *own* your music. Audio quality is a thing too i suppose but my stereo setup is only around like 700 dollars. To be fair though, I was diagnosed with asperger's a few years ago haha.
I have LPs I played to death 60 years ago and still play occasionally now, always on 'crappy' [inexpensive] record players, and they sound about as well as they should after 60 years of use. A few surface scratches perhaps here and there but no noticeable destruction. Records were once made to be played and played often. I agree that if you are overly concerned with 'wear' then don't play it. Encase it in a display and play a CD [although I remember when we were warned by self-proclaimed experts that they would self-destruct in a few years unless we invested in some very expensive and time consuming safeguards. The one that sits in my car deck the last 10 years still plays. LOL].
“I think I’m going to see if the neighbor is doing okay. He’s played the same song over 80 times.”
OMG THAT'S SO FUNNY you literally made my boring saturday with this comment 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
😒 good one!😀 🙄 the majoritsy of people would think husband and wife Rolle playing! The Loanranger, 😱Latexranger! 😕 Nurse Stimpy to the rescue! 😌 all of them!
Maybe he's trying to say something doing it over and over again.
After listening to that song over and over again, I'd purposely break the record.
@@harshnemesis ok...
🤣
Sir, you have no taste for classical music then... it's a good rendition of a timeless classic.
So you could prove others you listened to it many times?
@@MetalTrabant There's much better classical music than that simple piece lol
ive been collecting and playing records since a teen in 80s. i have a feeling we are not giving vinyl the credit it deserves. Its way more durable and long lasting than we give it credit for. its not as fragile and delicate as we make it out to be....
Brough Jidus just think how many hand me down records survived kids, smokers, drinkers, dust, abandonment and still play the music on them. Doubly so for shellac records that endured the same but with steel needles.
Xx-MrEBA-xX That is exactly, what came to me at a local record store last week. Couldn’t agree with you more.
I feel like people do have to be careful to not warp the records, though
@@xx-mreba-xx4051 the needles were what wore out though.......like that was the point
@@jacobbarnett9956if we assume everyone discarded them after playing one side as intended... or used low tone needles and not the high tone ones that wear out the grooves faster
"Audiophiles" care more about equipment, but little about source material.
"aUdIoPhIlEs"
More like the price. The more expensive the better
I wonder sometimes if they even like music, or just how clean sound can be. It's like they don't want anyone to be aloud to be satisfied with anything even slightly less than the very best, and the most expensive. I hope they know that telling people that all the affordable equipment is horrible will kill their hobbies if they aren't careful. Records players are covered now; cassette players are where people have a hard time finding the good players these days.
The audiophiles that buy Japanese records would disagree
Got to hear those airy whips in overly compressed pop music yes so good I have the doom game flac
Let's face it...playing a record is dragging a diamond through vinyl grooves. The record will wear eventually in any case. With a good turntable it will merely take longer to wear it.
EXACTLY! Thank you! someone that has a brain on here! There is only one record player that doesnt at all contact and thats the japanese laser player.
Or you could use a (new)British £5
Thiemo K ya but your records will last for 30 to forty YEARS as opposed to two or 3 years
@@harshnemesis not everyone has the money and tech
@@sniperpig049 You know most cheap briefcase players have a record function, right?
Does it destroy them? - No
Does it cause more noise? - Slightly. Not on 5 grams as far as I can tell.
I had NO idea you watched these videos...nice seeing you here!
The high frequency peaks of the record grooves have been destroyed. The disc will never sound the same. It will start to sound like a blanket has been thrown over your speakers! kinda like a AM radio broadcast. Muffled.
Gabriel Brown Obsolete tech is my sorta thing!
***** Yeah maybe played back 5 times was an exaggeration, a few hundred times may do something but that's with basically any record player.
Sorry, but no, it won't happen "with basically any record player". A quality diamond stylus properly aligned and with the arm counterweight calibrated to the correct stylus pressure (1.5 to 2.5 grams depending on the stylus) will exact little or no wear on a record. A cheap ceramic cartridge with no ability to control tracking force from the arm will damage a record irreparably very quickly. Quite frankly, its just lazy an wasteful to buy a Crosley. The cost difference between that and getting a budget turntable with a real stylus is a just a few hundred dollars, and the result in terms of sound and enjoyment will well exceed the investment. If you're paying $25 per record for new vinyl, its a no brainer.
not even a few hundred. The crosle cruiser is about $80 on amazon (closer to 100 at a physical store), a basic Orbit-turn is $179. Just spend the extra 100 if you really want to collect vinyl.
i had quit record collecting for two years up until a few weeks ago. what kept me from coming back wasn't that my records were being destroyed by my starter table, it was the snobbery and the gatekeeping that's present in the hobbyists. with people referring to $500 tables as "starters" and suggesting that i need hundreds of dollars more worth of equipment to have my records listenable, i was convinced that the paywall for the hobby was just too high, and stopped collecting. thankfully, my local record store owner is smarter than that, and helped me get back into the hobby with a few suggestions, and now i'm enjoying collecting again with my new lp-120
Good for you. People like those so-called audiophiles shouldn't prevent you from participating in or enjoying a hobby. I only started a few years ago, prioritising collecting records and enjoying the experience over chasing upgrades and arguing online... I've never looked back.
As I was reading this I was saying to myself this guy needs an LP120 😂
Buy whatever record player you like. If you're an audiophile then buy an expensive one. If you want a Crosley or similar just to have fun listening to your LPs then go for it.
Because to be fair, to me at least, 'destroying' a vinyl would be snapping the thing in half.
wow. You must be a freakin' genius
Crosley's are a total waste of money. I got a nice 1970s Garrard turntable w/ a magnetic cartridge for only $10 at the Salvation Army, works as good as an expensive turntable after replacing the needle and totally relubricating it. Also lowered the tracking force and reconditioned the idler wheel.
Howard Jones you’re missing the point. Don’t tell people how to live, spend their money, or enjoy their music. If they’re happy let them be happy.
Then why do I have vinyl LPs that are more than 30 years old and they still play perfectly?
@@dustinwheat4096 no one said anything about how to spend your money. They gave their opinion idiot. 👎or did you read "dont buy"? They said they are a waste of money,meaning thats how they feel. Those who liked your comment suffer from reading cromprehension very much like you 😂
Vinyl Eyes probably gets a commission from Audio Technica to trash Crosley
Like come on I love Audio-Technica but Crosley does not always make crap turntables Crosley actually has some pretty good turntables out there
I have a crosley and measured it on a scale it’s running about 3G so not that much to destroy a record. And I recommend 2g-4g
Care Bears The Alternative Universe how are they bad
Orbit Bliss I think it’s because It’s Impossible to listen to music on it
Care Bears The Alternative Universe I agree
Two things I remember from “back in the day” (1970s/80s) when audiophilia was going mainstream and there was a lot of public interest in it: (1) Too little tracking force is worse for the record than too much. Each cartridge/stylus combination had a recommended range. Too little force allowed the stylus to “chatter” in the groove, producing damage that was easy to see in photomicrographs.(2) A record played once per day and then out away will last longer than one that gets the same number of plays in quick succession. The stylus actually expands the groove a bit, and given a rest period it will recover its original shape. A lot of the degradation our reviewer heard may have been caused by successive plays rather than excessive stylus force.
Remember, "audiophiles" have been behind such junk as the Pono music player.
I was hyped about that, then I found out it was absolute trash compared to other better and cheaper hi res players. I knew it was too pricey in the first place.
that's because Neil Young had no clue that the HD Tracks music he was using as an example were far more dynamic than the remastered CDs. So he stupidly assumed 24/96 sounds better than a well mastered CD. Emperor's new clothes.
that's because Neil Young had no clue that the HD Tracks music he was using as an example were far more dynamic than the remastered CDs. So he stupidly assumed 24/96 sounds better than a well mastered CD. Emperor's new clothes.
JonnyInfinite Help me out here... how could 24/96 not sound better that 16/44.1. ???!?? What are we missing here?
24/96 will allow you to better reproduce the encoded sound. Not that much, 16/44.1 is good enough for the vast majority of humans to not be able to tell the difference, but it will.
The problem is that it's still only reproduction. If the mastering is shit, the mastering is shit, you could encode it with 128-bit samples at 10 million samples per second and it'd *still* sound like shit. A fair comparison would use the same master, which (at least, according to context, I haven't seen the original video referenced) wasn't done. They used a master with good dynamic range for the 24/96 copy, and one that had been dynamic range compressioned to hell and back for the 16/44.1
It depends on when you consider a record destroyed - audiophiles would consider it destroyed when it no longer has the full harmonic range as when it was fresh of the press.
Harmy Despecialized true but for the average person or teen buying a cheap turntable or crosley they wont destroy the vynl and I think that's his point. The vynl freaks tell people never go cheap or crosley because they will destroy your record is bullshit and this is proof.
im not an audiophile and i agree with a record Being destroyed. I have a decent sound setup with handmade hifi speakers and recievers equipment and you can noticably tell a worn record from a new pressing. The fact is that even a super expensive good turntable is in direct contact with the lp. It needs friction. The ONLY exception is the Japanese made Laser lp player that doesnt contact the lp at all the laser reads the groves.
these guys are just searching for a excuse to buy stupidly overpriced stuff...
good machinery is has a hefty price
With that logic, an audiophile would consider a record "destroyed" when played on any record player
We had a Crosley cruiser for 6 years now and it hasn't destroyed any of my records I have the michael jackson thriller album that is from at least 1982 and i play that record all the time on the Crosley and the record still plays fine like it did in the 80s
Ok, now play that record in a good turntable and you will see the damage
I had Michael Jackson’s Thriller on vinyl and played it on the crosley cruiser, and it was destroyed after the 7th or 8th play
This is the comment that the big wigs at /r/Vinyl don't want you to see
@@jankmcdonald4340 That could be a needle issue. Needles can only be used for so many plays/hours, even on high end models, before they all cause damage. Also using the wrong needle for the groove (78 stylus on a 33 or 45), combined with high tracking, could wear down and destroy the edges of the track faster than normal.
@@jeremymartin1957 no.
In another video, someone claimed to have proven that cheap turntables destroy records by playing a record 100 times on a cheap turntable, and an identical record 100 times on a quality turntable, then comparing them. On the first record there was a slight surface noise (audible only between tracks) and a barely audible distortion, but the record was still definitely enjoyable. And I suppose you won't listen any record more than 100 times.
While not a Crosley fan, this is an Internet urban legend perpetuated by zealots like Fremmer, etc. Reality is that poorly pressed records survived heavier tracking weights than a Crosley, and they will live on. Where does he come up with 5 times? Not 2, not 3, but, 5. So does that mean my Audio Technica, tracking at 2 grams, will destroy my vinyl at 12 or so plays? Come on. Please make this irresponsible Internet OCD voodoo stop.
It's entirely dependent on the quality of the stylus you are using. As long as you can adjust VTA, tracking force, and anti-skate, you can calibrate even a budget table like the AT to perform well and impart minimal wear on your records. A Crosley has no mechanism for adjustment and calibration, and uses a ceramic needle, which is the cheapest and lowest quality of stylus material made. More importantly, it sounds horrible.
+Bradley Fried You aren't telling me anything I don't already know. But thanks.
You must have an amazing car if it can run for more than 5 seconds without oil!
ArthurJS123
Lord Sandwich my piece of crap $50 Dodge Dynasty car I had ran for 8 months without oil due to blown head gaskets and only quit after computer went out. hah
i love this guy. its sad that audiophiles are supposed to be audio enthusiasts, yet they are the wine experts of music. their 'expertise' is so useless and means nothing. Yes crosleys sound horrible, anybody who has heard one knows that. But people into this hobby are so annoying thinking their expensive equipment sounds better. Sound is relative and what is pleasing to peoples ears is not all the same. This guy seems like a true audio enthusiast that doesnt jump on audiophile band wagons. I appreciate this video.
I agree with you.plus all you see in stores is croslys and I can't be bothered trying to find something better it's too hard and I don't have the know how.im limited with tech and just want to listen to records the easy way. they don't make good stuff anymore and there is no easy access to getting it so I have to make the best of it with the crosly.
@@michaelgenzale7537 If you really want something of higher quality, I see the AudioTechnica LP60X in major retail stores all the time. Yeah, it’s more expensive than the suitcase players and yes, I do see folks clowning on those too, but if better audio quality is all you want you do have more easily accessible options
FINALLY a person acctually doing a real test. LPs when they where first made where made for 5-6grams if tracking. Called another RUclipsr a tool. He was trying to say buy a $200+ record player as a compromise to a $50 one. 90% of the RUclipsr "experts" are just regurgitation toolbags that have done no work themselves.
I bet you got sick of hearing the same song over and over and over and over and over again :D
Oh, you mean typical radio play?
set a timer and turn the speakers off
The new "Clockwork Orange"-style torture!
Nabbasan What about the Nokia version? :)) (Monophonic)
Naaaahhhh. Just imagine The Loooooone Rangerrrrrr....
I've had a cheap enough player that it destroyed records! It was built for a science fair project and was largely cardboard and construction paper by mass, with a sewing needle for a stylus. Turning was done with a hand. We got the cheapest records a goodwill had, that were already in kinda shitty condition, because we knew darn well it'd destroy them. It was great fun, and I learned a lot about how sound works :D
Even after all that torture, it may be possible that the increased surface noise might be simply caused by static buildup, due to continuos handling, and playing. I've found that records are actually a lot tougher than most people think. I have decades old records from thrift stores that looked, and sounded terrible when I got them, and were probably played on much lower quality equipment than a Crosley. But after a dish soap bath, wood glue, and a treatment of Gruvglide, they sound brand new.
Sometimes even noticeably scratched records can be salvaged by massaging the area with a micro fibre cloth to remove the torn away vinyl from the path of the stylus. It might still look rough, but as long as the deepest part of the grooves are undamaged, it can sound surprisingly good.
I've just bought a victrola, and it seems to be okay. I've changed the stylus to a diamond head, and I've played a bunch of records on it and it sounds fine to me
Keep spinning ‘em Hunt, they’ll be just fine. The diamond stylus change was a good move, and that’s exactly what I did with my Digitnow suitcase player. Victrola is a great brand, just like Digitnow and Croz.
@@31cify should i change mine to diamond or is the original stylus okay?
@@catieramicone8375 almost all the reviews i’ve read online suggest changing the needle, and since the diamond needles are around $11 for two on amazon, it’s probably worth the investment.
@@catieramicone8375 i’ve also seen people suggest putting coins to add more counterweight to decrease the pressure of the needle (kind of the opposite of what the guy in this video did), but you’d need a scale or something like that to check the mass.
Excessive force will not chew up the grooves, but it will certainly damage them.
Running the force too low will probably do more damage due to skipping etc.
***** I didn't knew that. I have very little experience with turntables.
+neil c Yeah, my first record player was a Teac LP-R550USB whose turntable mechanism is essentially a clone of the same one that Crosley uses. I adapted Vwestlife's idea and taped some coins to the back of the tonearm, where the counterweight would be, to reduce the tracking force to something like 3.5-4.0 grams. But in the end, I figured it's probably better to just leave it at its rated 5.0 grams because that's what the cartdridge is designed for.
He said that in the video...
There is room for you to glue a small tube on the back of the arm and to put a weight.you could remove the weight if it stops you closing the lid.
An audiophile spends thousands of dollars on 'stuff', but is worried about possibly ruining a 30 dollar album?
There are much more expensive and rare pressings of records that you are able to buy.
I'd consider myself an audiophile (DJ and studio engineer; quality and standards are important, but I don't believe in magic cables or data you can't quantify). My setup isn't really all that expensive. Certainly not expensive compared to the record collection. I don't worry about $30 records nearly as much as the $300 records...
@@EnygmaRecords There is a middle ground that a surprising amount of people don't see. My favourite pair of headphones right now are my KSC75s. I recently bought a pair of Edifier 1280Ts. Those are both some of the nicest sounding things I own, but the total for buying both would be something like $120. I would classify most KZ IEMs as audiophile and their most expensive stuff is ~$50. Audiophile doesn't mean you spent a shit ton of money, it just means that you try to get the best sounding equipment possible with the money you're able/willing to spend. It's just, caring about audio.
M50Xs (or M40X if that's your thing) are another example, they're something like $150 but can be driven by anything. HE-4XXs are $180, HD 6xx are $220 (need amps for them of course, so they're some more if you don't have one). I'm not too well-versed in speakers but I know this generally applies there too, unfortunately starting at a higher bracket.
I could go on, but basically most audiophiles aren't throwing $9000 at some horn speakers. I also pride myself on sifting through the bullshit, and would never spend more than like, $20 on cables.
The key is to change the stylus; even stuff I had as a teen in the 60s-70s played on some pretty appalling equipment have more or less survived. I squawked about new styluses, which my parents didn’t understand - they thought diamond styluses were ‘permanent’ - you never changed them; a carry-over from the 78 era.
i had a crosley. i got it for free from a friend after i randomly bought my wife her favorite album on vinyl (a perfect circle, emotive) with the intention of framing it. i tell you, that little turn table is the reason i started collecting vinyl records. it only lasted a few months before the electronics corroded (don't ask, i assume it had history before i got it) and i replaced it (with an audio-technica). i have played a few albums FAR more than 5 times and they still sound great.
It’s usually more than 1,000 plays before any real notable “damage” (term used loosely here) is seen/heard.
I have a Crosley Rochester 5 in 1. It sounds bad, but my records don't. I've had one record, ironically Dark Side of the Moon, played countless times on my player, then on another better one (AT-LP120 if I remember right) and it sounded as perfect as ever. I do want a better player just to get better sound out of it, but I won't be buying multi-thousand dollar players just to protect my records against nothing.
i remember watching that vinyl eyez video years and years ago and becoming so anxious from it i stopped listening to vinyl for a while (i only owned a crosley bc it was what i got as a christmas gift in like elementary school and i was too young to just buy a better one), even now i still have and i am forever angry at vinyl eyez for that stupid fearmongering. keep up the amazing work vwestlife, been a fan of yours for a while and gods am i glad for you in whatever you call this part of youtube (ig the audio listening sphere ? idk lol)
I love this video. Its hilarious how much the whole cartridge just sits on the record while still playing lol
Y'know, I'm a 21 year old who's getting into vinyls. I've amassed a small collection and I'm looking into getting a player with my Christmas bonus. That being said, it's scary hearing all the horror stories of crosleys and victrolas, but seeing a test like this done in the scientific method is pretty reassuring. That being said, my first player will be an audio Technica, but now I can feel a little safer knowing my sister's using her little crosley and enjoying it. Enjoyed this video a lot and appreciate your time in making it!
You hear audiophiles that rebuy the album when it wears
Imhotep ,
>> vinyl records
>> audiophiles
Lol
Makes me feel less bad about the shitty record players I have, though eventually I plan on getting a good one.
Here's my thing with audiophiles, chill the hell out. Any type of physical media of music is going to be damaged, from cd, cassette or VINYL if you play it enough. And some people want to start light and get a crosley, let them get it. Let their preferences evolve, give people time.
James, calm the heck down, man. Are you even having fun with music?
@@jamescarter3196 sounds like something an audiophile would say
Sure, cassettes always wear out by being played but if you take care of your records the wear from playing them will be pretty much non existent. I have no clue how one could damage a cd just by playing it though.
Exactly. I know for a fact that people like James who responded to you have made me way more hesitant to get into vinyl because of this theory that if you don't buy a new turntable you can't afford or an old turntable you don't have the expertise to repair, you don't belong in the hobby. I haven't seen anywhere near that much hatred in communities for the other formats I collect, but the vinyl snobs and audiophiles have plenty of it. I'm sorry I can't afford a $3-500 turntable without forgoing multiple weeks' worth of groceries or electricity or that I can't find vintage turntables locally that don't require repair skills I don't have to make them work again. I just want an entry level turntable that I can hook up to play a small collection of records I like. That shouldn't be that much of a sin, but the audiophiles apparently think it is.
Can't imagine how someone can live with that much hatred over music collecting. Very odd.
Cd is actually digital
Omg thanks i found this vid! I was scared i bought a turntable similar to Crosley, And since it arrived i haven't played my first record wth it because of this vids saying it will destroy my record 😭
I was already sad i couldn't play my Donna Summer "The Wanderer" Vinyl but thanks to this vid that clarified! You made my day!
I'd like to see this done on an inner track. Would heavy tracking accentuate inner grove distortion when being played back on the 'quality' turntable after the damage test?
Actually, there is a Crosley model that uses some weird audio technica cartridge and I've seen video of it actually pulling PVC shavings behind it..
From my childhood, I remember reading an article about test made by Tesla electronics company (Czechoslovakia then) in cooperation with Supraphon records label. They tested two player models, one with "crystalline" and one with "magneto-dynamic" cartridge systems. The latter one had much less tracking force. The estimated lifespan of a record on the cheaper system was 50 plays and there was actually a measurable difference between each play. The latter was 1000 plays estimated, it was said that in real life, the record would deteriorate by age faster than by wear. The record pressing factory is still there and active, actually; it's called GZ ("Gramofonove zavody") in Lodenice, central Bohemia.
I don't think it matters whether or not the vinyl is being destroyed, because ultimately it is being damaged regardless. Of course even a top end turntable tracking at an acceptable value (usually between 1 and 2.5 grams) is going to cause some damage, but it won't be nearly as much. The fact of the matter is if you play your vinyl on a Crosley, it won't last as long as it will if you play it on a real turntable. Also, there are so many other factors that come into play. The quality of the tonearm bearings on that BSR are without doubt far better than those of a Crosley tonearm, though I dread to think what this test may have done to them. I'd also imagine that the BSR has at least some form of bias compensation, whereas the Crosley doesn't. I suspect the platter bearing of the BSR is made to a far higher tolerance, to provide a more stable surface for the vinyl and thus minimising the risk of excessive wear caused by the tonearm tracking an uneven surface. And then there's the quality of the styli themselves to consider. Nevertheless, an interesting experiment.
I've owned Crosley turntables for over 5 years. I buy most of my records brand new, and many of them have been played on a Crosley 20+ times. After playing them on a Crosley, there is no increase in surface noise or wear. No more than any high end player, anyway. Crosley makes cheap players, that's for sure. But they do not hurt your records.
The only problem with BSR turntables is they are idler driven rather than direct or belt driven. Idler "tires" can get depressions, develop flat spots, and become stiff from age. Also, if you buy one that is stiff from old grease turning into glue, you have to clean and re-lubricate. Otherwise, they work well and were the standard automatic record changer for many years.
*Your* table might be doing OK, but note that one of the valid complaints of the Crosley tables is their wildly varying consistency.
Exactly. I don't see myself replacing my Technics with a BSR any time soon, but a well maintained BSR deck will do far less damage than a modern portable turntable and will be more than adequate for many people.
+MarcusAurelius1666 I think you're confusing the stylus with the cartridge. The BSR probably has a sapphire or diamond stylus riding on a ceramic cartridge. The problem with the way Crosley implements it on their turntables (and as vwestlife has explained on some other of his record player reviews) is that the output of a typical Crosley record player's amp barely matches the rated impedance of the ceramic cartridge they've built in. This is why you have to turn a Crosley up so loud to get any volume at all. The NP1 stylus that comes with most Crosleys is a diamond, conical stylus.
As a Kid I had access to loads of old records from my parents, some of the 45s came out of jukeboxes and they were played on a old suitcase player until the player died. I wish I still had them as I'm sure they would all still play fine. Coming from a DJ background the only time I had a damaged record was due to a bad pressing on thin vinyl or a stylus got worn or broken from the heavy use of mixing almost daily.
Surface noise got worse and worse and the high end was affected. The sound got alot more muffled.
That was being subjected to up to 20g and the cartridge was bottoming out of course the record was affected but not under normal playing
Not only that, but he used a record with a tiny dynamic range and it’s super quiet. Use a mono record from the early 1960s that is really loud and it’s going to wear down way faster.
What will damage you discs? Not changing the stylus from time to time.
I got a couple of old records that do have groove wear, but not from a modern Crosley, from an old furniture style turntable from the 1960s. It had the penny in the end of the tone arm very bad.
It was the tracking force that did that. They used more back then.
The penny was used on alreacy worn records
Can the suitcase turntables destroy your records?
In my youth I probably damaged more records by not keeping them clean and tracking too LIGHT.
I can attest to the briefcases not damaging the records
(Sadly) i own a grausch Vinyl player(green) and i’ve played Abbey road,Nevermind,News Of The World and Revolver
Perhaps the increase surface noise is more due to the plastic from the stylus wearing off and embedding the fine plastic particles/dust into the grooves.
3.5 grams won't harm records, even 5-7 won't if the cartridge is designed for that. RCA did scientific papers on record wear in the 50s where they played a record 1000 times at like 8 grams. No one could tell the difference to a new record, but that's keeping it perfectly clean, they did show dust could wreck a record, if they were not kept clean. A worn out needle can wreck a record in a couple plays.
Indeed, back in the 1960s, 5 grams was considered "ideal" for stereo LPs, and 6 grams was the specified maximum: www.amstereo.org/images/recordcare.jpg
Keep an eye on paper dust from the sleeves. This can do some REAL damage.
I have a turntable from 1974 and THE manual recomend Four to teen grams. (Pioneer LP 510a)
4:07 "You can tell this is a high quality record because it's made by Pickwick." BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! ;)
Good old bottom feeder 'Pickwick'.
I had a Jensen turntable for years, but this year I up graded to the audio-technical. I can tell a big difference in the quality and the playback
Me too! Its was a good upgrade!
Scary how quickly misinformation can spread like that.
i find your content to be so entertaining and informative haha just recently upgraded from a suitcase turntable because of all the lies ive been fed by the internet but thanks to your channel, i finally understand a lot more about all this.
I really like your channel. Keep it up!
BTW, that Flintstones thumbnail... :D
What about 20 pounds of tracking force?
Would have loved to see the before and after waveforms from Audacity (top/bottom).
Yep, that would've showed us real data instead of just guessing by ears and plain eyes...
Interesting. I expected distortion or something like this at the higher weight levels, but not an increase of noise.
I have two records in my collection that suddenly distorts terribly once the last track starts playing on both sides (the track before is fine until its end).
And I have a record where the stereo center point is unstable and bounces from left to right randomy. Especially in the beginning.
I bought all three records on a flea market and all three are well-cleaned but these issues remain. They aren't scratched and don't look any different from an intact one.
Any idea, what could happened to these?
These results were not what I expected at all. However, many of the "bargain bin" used records that I have come across have heavy amounts of distortion. Could this have been caused by playing them with a worn out stylus?
I have also attempted to inspect used records under a microscope. sometimes, the groove damage can be visible.
I still play records on my 1956 Zenith Cobra Matic with the old plug in cartridge with 2 needles on it.
Another great video. Would of been cool to see a spectrum from start to finish of the entire process.
It's not the tracking weight that causes problems, it's the tracking pressure. A Crossley will have a relatively large diameter spherical stylus whereas my 1970s high end (sorry) turntable uses an elliptical stylus of such tiny dimensions that my eyes can't see it without a magnifying glass. The Crossley may have a tracking weight five times that of my turntable, but that weight is spread over a much larger area than the tracking weight of my stylus. I'm willing to bet that the actual pressure is higher from my stylus simply because that weight is spread over a much much smaller area. Furthermore, although I don't have the equipment to prove it, I strongly suspect that the stylus on a Crossley is rather crudely polished and may act rather like a tip tool on a lathe.
I did some experiments last year with sapphire styli and diamond styli. They were Chuo Denshi CZ800 styli, the same kind that come with Crosley Cruisers and most other suitcase record players. After I was finished, I sent the styli to a friend who does ultra high magnification photography with an electron microscope. I was pleasantly surprised to see that they were beautifully polished. Smooth as glass. I suspect Chuo Denshi sources their diamonds and sapphires from the same manufacturer that most of the other cartridge makers use.
My biggest gripe build quality of the player. I even think BSR has these Crosley things beat.
BSR is much better than Crosley Cruisers. They generally have a stylus that is recommended to run at 1-3 grams, like in this video. If you have a BSR (or similar) and run it at around 2g, your records will last a long, long time and sound just fine.
I feel like a lot of audiophiles are just aging men panicking over the loss of their hearing and trying to blame anything and everything else
"You can tell that this is a high quality record 'cause it's made by Pickwick". Subscribed.
Very interesting test. I enjoy watching your videos. I would recommend trying with vinyl recorded at regular levels because the larger groove undulations might show the damage sooner. Still, after 5 or 10 plays I doubt a Crosley would do any damage provided the stylus was not worn. One thing for sure is the sample music was damaged to begin with. It sounds like they compressed the hell out of it.
This video put me at ease. Thank you!! This is really helpful.
After playing my Death of a bachelor album in its entirety a few dozen times on a crosley cruiser, I can say they aren't as bad as everyone makes them out to be. Sure, they aren't the best quality by any means. They may destroy records IF the record isn't clean and the needle, arm, etc isn't taken care of. But overall I believe a cruiser is a fine starter for any would be record player. As long as you don't intend on using it forever, and plan to upgrade it is perfectly acceptable to use.
The reference recording is already majorly distorted I'm afraid...
I did say it was a cheap record that compressed the audio to fit 25 tracks on one LP!
Children's record players in the 60s did far more damage to records than modern cheap record players. The Kenner Close'n'play was one that did a lot of damage to 45s.
ok.. now i have a question.. can the surface noise of that abused track be reduced with a good cleaning? or is it permanent now?
Try this trick on the inner track, where there is less than half the amount of vinyl per revolution, and I think the degradation in sound quality would show up more profoundly.
All of those people didn't say "they will destroy the inside of your records" they said in general, it will destroy your records. Let's not go into such miniscule details to finally confirm something that has already been disapproved
Well that's naive. Everybody knows that the length of the
groove per revolution is less than half what it is around the outer tracks once
you reach the centre. Inner tracks are always more susceptible to distortion,
and the inner tracks are always the ones which start to degrade first on a worn
out record. If you think a record is not "destroyed" because some of
it is still listenable, I have to disagree.
Ramajam Gameplay dragging a diamond through vinyl will cause wear in any case, a good turntable will only need more time to noticeably wear the record.
Glad that wasn't one of my BSRs ! As you say, it always does start to produce a worn sound towards the end of an LP, where the amount of vinyl passing the stylus per second is decreasing all the while.
jedw not only that, but the length of the crosley tone arm is short, so it plays the inner grooves poorly and can damage them even greater!
I have a hyper shit record player. Like makes Crowley look amazing.
I have old and new records. I've played my copy of Kurt Vile's pretty pimpin at least 20 times on it. Still sounds how it did when I bought it.
I want to get into vynil... how about the audio technica atlp60 or the pioneer pl 990?
Are they good enough will they destroy my records? Which is better and do they actually sound good or I just should avoid them and stop thinking about vynil...
I mostly use an old magnavox record console to play records and record them to the computer. There's a weird spot were the frequency drops around 4K and peaks at about 10k but audacity can fix this pretty well. I record out of the tape out line to do this into my PC's line in. Now I'm curious how it would sound if I'd hook the record right to the line in and use audacity's RIAA equalization curve.
That Panasonic is my childhood radio / record player. What a joy seeing it again! You are the best VWeslife
This is very true. The extra few grams are definitely going to wear away at the vinyl faster, but only over a long period of time. I think the biggest problem with Crosley is their weight and the small size of the platter. If you have it on a table and someone walks by, the turntable will undoubtably move to some extent, possibly causing the tonearm to skip and scrape across the record.
AlagomSwede My girlfriend has one. It cant even play through most of the songs on newer albums. We have a few $4 Louis Armstrong, Simon and Garfunkle etc from thrift shops those play through fine. We put on a brand new, more recent one (as in made in the last 10 years) and the needle hops around on almost every track. It is literally unlistenable.
@@Nwmguy even my 1948 Newcomb set at the lowest tracking force plays modern records with no skipping. Of course,being original speaker and all does not give out clean sounding quality like modern equipment. I replaced the original 13t cartridge with a NOS Astatic 148-7 to play both stereo and mono. Its doing great just need to recap the ole girl. It skips when i dont set the tracking adjustment right,..the spring binds with the cord. Nice school player i love it.
I have a Victrola Suitcase Record Player and it plays all my Vinyl perfectly and has never damaged any of my records. I have old records and new ones and they are all fine. Just know when to replace your stylus. I have a few backups so I'm good.
when should you replace your stylus?
@@catieramicone8375 You will notice that your records aren't sounding as good as they did before. You might hear a faint buzzing sound and you might be able to see that the stylus looks a bit wore. Also check with your player's manual - it might say change your stylus after a certain amount of hours played.
@@TmarkN thank you so much!
The musical theme is perfect for this test) It's so dramatically))
This video managed to combine the scientific method and retro tech. I'm in love
Doesn't change the fact that cheap record players still sound like shit, destroying my records or not, what's the point of sticking up for something that still sounds like trash?
Not all inexpensive record players sound like trash. In fact, not even all Crosley record players sound bad.
I totally agree, not all inexpensive record players sound like trash. But.....You pay for what you get.
The audio Technica is amazing, does what you want it to do, the cartridge can be replaced, the tonearm can be replaced with a more custom one. Even the innards can be replaced.
Crosley players, not so much. I got into collecting records, and i started on some cheapo player, and i immediatly heard a difference depending on the company that made the record.
Sometimes, it's worth the extra money
But David Bowie's Blue Eye if you take very good care of your records and remember to clean the dust of them you can still get a unique sound. Crosleys or any cheap brand of record players can ruin your lp's. And I definitely know from experience.
If audio t are great why do you have to replace everything .
stevie keane you don't have to replace everything buddy...they're great because it gives you the freedom to
Thanks for making these videos they're so educational for a beginner vinyl enthusiast like myself :D
Ive had a crosley for seven years now and was unaware of the attitudes towards them until I had to relair a broken speaker, so much gatekeeping on the internet! It truly is a cancerous place to be! Thank you for spreading knowledge, i dont know what your talking about half the time but you sound like youve been doing it for awhile.
Whats a decent record player a person can buy today that you can recommend? If you dont mind
-much thanks
erik g.
So glad someone finally tested what the tracking force actually does to the record. I do admit that I played even some of my most valuable records on a crosley type player (it's a denver one with almost the same model) several times in my very earliest days of record collecting but they really aren't damaged in any way and still sound great on a good record player! No worries everyone with a crosley!
So many myths arising now, especially from hipster 'audiophile experts.' Thanks for busting these myths with objectivity and facts based on pragmatic testing . I've played records back in the 1980s on cheap portables worse than the 'crosleys', and deck TTs like BSRs and Garrards, in the time when no one discussed tracking weights. When I play these old records again on the new turntables with light pickups and I have yet to hear any indication that these were "chewed up" by the sapphire needles attached to the ceramic carts of the old phonos which played them back in the day.
I keep hearing people talk and often complain about the condition of a record as well, often checking them in store. I don't bother, I must be well over 1000 records now (started collecting back in January), mostly used, and I've yet to find a record that plays poorly, they all sound good to me.
You really could not have picked a better record to test this. Bravo.
The worst thing for record damage is mistracking, that's why it's bad to use too little stylus downforce. It's imperative that the stylus has enough force to keep it snug in the groove.
Haha I love these kind of videos. Put those snobs in there place
Self proclaimed audiophiles are TRIGERRED! Keep up the good work.
thing is, the crosleys cartridge doesn't allow the stylus to bottom out, the rubber that picks up the vibration from the cantilever is so dense that it cant really move that much, so when you have the stlus basically rigid at the 5 - 7 gram tracking mark its like dragging a nail though the grooves at 5 - 7 grams, where as on the cartridge in the panasonic the cantilever has some play because the vibrations are picked up at the back of it not close to the middle / front like that of most cheap ceramic carts you get today
Thank you very much for this wonderful video! I played records for over 5 years on a Crosley record player and still, the records are just fine
The build quality of BSR changers is far above a modern Crosley. Most bad vinyl that I get at thrift stores likely was worn more by a sapphire needle that has been used too long than high tracking force.
BSRs have better tonearm bearings.
I must disagree, my dad used to have a crosley turntable a long time ago. he had a gilbert o' sullivan 45 and and somehow put a LOUD hiss on the entire record. when you play it back on a good turntable it would sound terrible, had to toss the record sadly
He must've had a defective or very worn-out stylus. Also it was probably a styrene 45, which wears out much faster than vinyl.
Old crosley was well regarded and built well. The crosley now is a new company, just bought the name out.
wow, the surface noise got about 3-4dB louder as your experiment progressed, but there was very little audible increase in distortion! fascinating.
I have the exact same changer as that panasonic. Mines by Kmart and it's just the record player no stereo.. Should I be worried about it chewing up my records? I bought a new needle for it.
No.
Hey, let's give this chap a round of applause for his efforts. He had to endure probably hearing this song 100 times, and is still talking in a sensible way.
While not perfect, his endeavor was done with purity of heart.
Mike don’t forget his neighbours.
The compression is so bad on this record.
Probably had to be to squeeze all those tracks in. But if you want to hear worse, just turn on the radio; most modern recordings intended for air play are compressed in order to "max out" the volume from beginning to end. The "loudness war" has been killing music quality for the masses.
PC No modern recording is pure crap. No dynamics. It sounds like all the instruments are cluttered one over the other. Disgusting.
man thanks for videos like this. recently i started wanting to dip my toe into records as an audio medium, and got completely turned off by the price of record players that people like the geniuses ar r/vinyl say are the only ones you should use. great to know theyre blowing things out of proportion and that theres good record players that i can actually afford
I really want that vintage looking wooden victrola.. I don't know much about record players, but would it do any damage to my records if I got one?
Not unless you play them hundreds of times.
Call me crazy (and no I do not own a Crosley nor probably ever will) but I think thered be something charming about having a record that Ive owned for 10-20+ years gaining a bit of surface noise over time as I myself have grown older.
Similarly to the way CD’s would get scratches as you played the crap out of them years ago.
101 Crosley haters saw this video. _(no, srsly, ~600 likes ~100 dislikes, yet most of comments agree)_
Hearing that music start again for the 8th time made me LOL :) Good experiment!
Just fascinating and hilarious at the same time!! I actually remember the "penny" days of my youth. Thanks for this really fun video!