Yo, loved you sharing insight and the design thought process behind the surgeon. I went in thinking the debuff removal was just a weird thematic gimmick (cause look, it's a doctor) to actually a really interesting concept when it comes to locking his moveset. Awesome work! Thoroughly enjoyed it and I'm curious what your opinions on the other enemies are especially on the Fanatics as they are my personal favorites (apart from the Sacraficial) and the fisherfolk who are by far my least favorite (gimmicks and bleed synergy are great, but massively overtuned for basic enemies imo). I'll definitely be watching part 2 if that comes out 👍
I think it's fair to say that the Chirurgeon and his pocket leeches are, in my opinion, some of the most welcomed and appreciated new enemies in DD 2. I love everything about his fight and what he brings to the game. I especially love how you can risk a tough fight for diesase cures and mastery or play it safe by going to a licensed professional. 10/10 needs more leeches
I still wish more enemies in this game had Combo interaction, instead of just the Champion ones. To me, it feels like RH are playing easy with the enemies, like there could be more.
look... i know josephine is evil. i have made peace with her never coming back. but she has so much room for synergies as a party member. Her updated skills would be so cool to use. There aren't really any options for AoE support skills. Having a character to increase your trinket rarity/bauble yield/gold income would be awesome and if Flag taught us anything, red hook isn't against adding character gimmicks that are one-off incongruent nonsense (affectionate). also seeing her comic turned into a shrine of reflection would be excellent.
True while its cool that we get to fight her being able to play her would be awesome. In my ideal world all the old playable characters would be able to be played in dd2 eventually. Maybe we can get like a quest to get her to change ways or something idk but it probably wont happen
I've always felt that Widow's main issue was interactibility with her other than ''just kill her turn one lmao'' I've had this idea for a while and it may not be end all be all or even good but giving her one death armor, lowering her HP even more, removing backline access on reflection, increasing the power of desperate grab drastically like more stress, usable in rank 4 and forward 4 to self but making it so that she only use it when she's on death's door would make it at least more interesting to interact with while still giving her some power. Thematically feels apropriate too, she gets super upset when about to die, sends herself deep in the front and if left alone uses don't look after a part of her old self realises she's gone unladylike. But yeah Widow needs some love she's not a terrible unit but design wise she truly feels weighted into using her ability once and then dying.
Worst thing about the cannon is the comple DOT immunity, making it really difficult for DOT teams. If it's considered to be purely mechanical then the bleed and blight resist makes sense but why burn resist? It's literally full of explosives so would be good if it had unique interaction
It really sucks yo run into during repair encounters with a dot team when one of the heroes are afraid to be left behind. The time it takes to take it down is borderline enough to fill stress from 0.
Looking forward to the next one. Tbh if you can get more devs on this, I don't know about any other viewers but I'd be interested in insight about any monsters that didn't make the final cut, or any attacks that were removed - I know the localization files had some unused move names in them.
Ghoul B-tier is being really generous. Howl, skull toss + block generation is so oppressive. Ghoul is like an epitome of the reasons behind current damage meta: if you don't kill him super fast he can actually ruin runs on a random road encounter with his overtuned stress and torch damage. I understand we don't want the old stun meta back, but enemies like Ghoul feel like they are designed around control tools that don't exist in this game.
Is Sammy a member of RedHook team that helped design the enemies? Is RedHook going to do something similiar to antiquarian like what they said about Crusader where you have to meet a requirement to unlock him
I think a lot of enemies could do with more interactivity. One idea I had for Widow is to... Desperate Grab to target dazed heroes, deal to daze, stun vs combo, & performed pos 2, 3, 4. Filthy Morsel to apply combo, making it a risk/reward for players to get stunned to get the chance to receive a disease check. Pit Fighter can't double daze without another Pit Fighter with his 1-turn cooldown with Jawbreaker. Etc.
took me until the patient to realise sammy was involved in the makings of the game (i think so) i am watching at a second screen while i work, so not 100% attention, but he said something like "when eric and i made this enemy" so he must be involved with the game making, or i'm very confused?
I disagree about the end of the Anti fight. On pure game design grounds, you could say it's drawing out for no reason, but the narrative, to me, makes it SO worth dwelling on. You have to give her that moment, as a villain, where she could so easily turn to her old friends and call upon their understanding, their mercy, their pity, but she chooses not to. Like Admiral Zhou at the end of Avatar Book 1. Brought low though she is, she's prideful, and will still kill you if she can, just so you don't get the option of choosing what to do with her. She forces your hand, makes you finish her off. She refuses to be judged for her actions by her former friends, even when it is obvious, to her and to us, that they have lead her to ruin. The fact that it's drawn out, but you know the whole time how it has to end, that isn't a flaw, that's theater. I don't know when I became an anti stan, but here I am apparently, lol
I disliked DD 1 Antiquarian, at first. It really boiled down to not understanding how to use the kit. A few guides later, she's pretty solid and pulled my estate away from financial ruin.
Antiquarian is B tier for being a fecking betrayer. Dismas was like "I'll tell you what you get, you get what you fecking deserve!" *Point blank shots*
lets say you have PD, jester, HWM and MAA. they each have their best upgrade (indiscriminate science, Encore, take aim, Bolster) but you only have 2 mastery points. which 2 would you upgrade first?
I hate the cannon just coz it takes significantly longer to kill than any other 2-size faction tank, but is significantly less threatening and doesn't really do any protecting. Also surprised that misfire is a 25% chance, I've seen it like once or twice over a ton of fights.
Gonna talk about Ghoul because he's one of my favourite DD1 enemies. - First off, I very much prefer his wicked, monstrous DD1 look with soulless eyes to DD2's gym bro ghoul. - His early Dodge after each move was fucking annoying and I dunno why they decided to even add that - I'm very happy that they went back to his DD1 iteration with Block instead. - Howl reducing Torch by 10 is actually fine because it has a 2-round cooldown. He's not gonna use this more than twice, most of the time once. In DD1, he can use Howl back to back. - As for Skull Toss being used at the front - that's basically how he was in DD1. Would you rather he only uses Rend? That's quite boring. All in all, this makes me think your partner Sammy hasn't played DD1.
it'd be great if pillager crackshot would be unable to use "front mortar" on turn 1. what do you think of trying to fix enemies by restricting moves from turn 1 for example. it is a band-aid but it prevents a mini balance nightmare where, turn 1 insta stun might be too oppressive whilst no stun or damage in other turns, may be too easy also about this enemy in general, I have a different experience, I really like that they're really threatening in rank 4 but not in rank 3. it feels really good to just put them out of the fight so easily. it gives my whole team kind of a breather. I don't think every enemy should provide that much oppression all the time, after-all, crackshot isn't in a mini boss fight, he's just a regular road battle dude
It was done once in DD1, remember the third darkest dungeon quest? Spoilers below. The white cell stalk that teleports you away from the fight cannot use teleport on the first turn of combat, only on the second turn and beyond, without that low risk 1st turn, dealing with the cyst would be almost impossible without a huge stun/sustain composition.
Seeing how much I disagree with this designer and his idea of """fun""" or what the devs thought was a "problem" in the first game explains why I don't like DD2 that much
It’s called thinking on what to say. They can’t just spit it out already, they need to think it through otherwise they’d be speaking nonsense. Please learn to be patient.
![[DEFINITIVE] ENEMY TIER LIST - PART 2 | Darkest Dungeon 2](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/3hzN92Ncon0/mqdefault.jpg)
![[DEFINITIVE] ENEMY TIER LIST - PART 2 | Darkest Dungeon 2](/img/tr.png)
Real pleasure to -spread my Woodsman propaganda- be on the show, Shuffle! I hope the viewers enjoyed the insight into Chirurgeon's development :)
Yo, loved you sharing insight and the design thought process behind the surgeon. I went in thinking the debuff removal was just a weird thematic gimmick (cause look, it's a doctor) to actually a really interesting concept when it comes to locking his moveset. Awesome work!
Thoroughly enjoyed it and I'm curious what your opinions on the other enemies are especially on the Fanatics as they are my personal favorites (apart from the Sacraficial) and the fisherfolk who are by far my least favorite (gimmicks and bleed synergy are great, but massively overtuned for basic enemies imo).
I'll definitely be watching part 2 if that comes out 👍
Thanks for confirming a few things I've suspected about how the game is designed.
I'm going to be honest. I didn't know the names of like any of these enemies somehow. I just knew them as "the big one." or "oh for fucks sake."
Yeah, my fav is: "Ok, we are melting that fkr ASAP".
The Knight is S tier. En Garde sound effect is just OMG
I think it's fair to say that the Chirurgeon and his pocket leeches are, in my opinion, some of the most welcomed and appreciated new enemies in DD 2. I love everything about his fight and what he brings to the game. I especially love how you can risk a tough fight for diesase cures and mastery or play it safe by going to a licensed professional.
10/10 needs more leeches
Instead of a disease, give Urchin's Haunting Melody a 3% chance to give the Melophobic negative quirk. Lol.
You’re a genius.
Omg. That makes so much sense why isn't this a thing
I still wish more enemies in this game had Combo interaction, instead of just the Champion ones. To me, it feels like RH are playing easy with the enemies, like there could be more.
look... i know josephine is evil. i have made peace with her never coming back. but she has so much room for synergies as a party member. Her updated skills would be so cool to use. There aren't really any options for AoE support skills. Having a character to increase your trinket rarity/bauble yield/gold income would be awesome and if Flag taught us anything, red hook isn't against adding character gimmicks that are one-off incongruent nonsense (affectionate). also seeing her comic turned into a shrine of reflection would be excellent.
True while its cool that we get to fight her being able to play her would be awesome. In my ideal world all the old playable characters would be able to be played in dd2 eventually. Maybe we can get like a quest to get her to change ways or something idk but it probably wont happen
I've always felt that Widow's main issue was interactibility with her other than ''just kill her turn one lmao''
I've had this idea for a while and it may not be end all be all or even good but giving her one death armor, lowering her HP even more, removing backline access on reflection, increasing the power of desperate grab drastically like more stress, usable in rank 4 and forward 4 to self but making it so that she only use it when she's on death's door would make it at least more interesting to interact with while still giving her some power.
Thematically feels apropriate too, she gets super upset when about to die, sends herself deep in the front and if left alone uses don't look after a part of her old self realises she's gone unladylike. But yeah Widow needs some love she's not a terrible unit but design wise she truly feels weighted into using her ability once and then dying.
Honestly that's a really interesting idea. A death's door only attack is a cool concept and I'd like to see it implemented somewhere.
That would be cool. Giving more enemies death's door only ablities would make execution much more useful
I wish every boss was as well implemented as Chirurgeon, Act 5, and Exemplar.
Love your tier lists. Keep em coming.
YOOOO YOU GOT SAMMY FOR THIS?
It was Sammy's idea!
*Captain uses All hands on deck*
Dear god *gets obliterated by crits*
Worst thing about the cannon is the comple DOT immunity, making it really difficult for DOT teams. If it's considered to be purely mechanical then the bleed and blight resist makes sense but why burn resist? It's literally full of explosives so would be good if it had unique interaction
It really sucks yo run into during repair encounters with a dot team when one of the heroes are afraid to be left behind.
The time it takes to take it down is borderline enough to fill stress from 0.
The new barricades from the dlc can be burned. So yeah the cannon should be burnable too
What a pleasant guest
Incredibly insightful video. Love how in depth you guys went into everything!
Real nice Tier List, well done both of you! Pls more, cant wait for part 2 :).
Looking forward to the next one. Tbh if you can get more devs on this, I don't know about any other viewers but I'd be interested in insight about any monsters that didn't make the final cut, or any attacks that were removed - I know the localization files had some unused move names in them.
>part 1
>90mins
I'm in love
Yessss love this video's super intresting
Wow, such a great insight, I wasn't aware of some of the tactics talked about here.
Ghoul B-tier is being really generous. Howl, skull toss + block generation is so oppressive. Ghoul is like an epitome of the reasons behind current damage meta: if you don't kill him super fast he can actually ruin runs on a random road encounter with his overtuned stress and torch damage.
I understand we don't want the old stun meta back, but enemies like Ghoul feel like they are designed around control tools that don't exist in this game.
Is Sammy a member of RedHook team that helped design the enemies?
Is RedHook going to do something similiar to antiquarian like what they said about Crusader where you have to meet a requirement to unlock him
I think a lot of enemies could do with more interactivity. One idea I had for Widow is to...
Desperate Grab to target dazed heroes, deal to daze, stun vs combo, & performed pos 2, 3, 4.
Filthy Morsel to apply combo, making it a risk/reward for players to get stunned to get the chance to receive a disease check. Pit Fighter can't double daze without another Pit Fighter with his 1-turn cooldown with Jawbreaker. Etc.
took me until the patient to realise sammy was involved in the makings of the game (i think so)
i am watching at a second screen while i work, so not 100% attention, but he said something like "when eric and i made this enemy" so he must be involved with the game making, or i'm very confused?
He helped make the gaunt chirurgeon fight :)
All the gaunt being the fodder weak faction but also dealing stress to prevent you stalling to heal up really is such great balance.
I disagree about the end of the Anti fight. On pure game design grounds, you could say it's drawing out for no reason, but the narrative, to me, makes it SO worth dwelling on. You have to give her that moment, as a villain, where she could so easily turn to her old friends and call upon their understanding, their mercy, their pity, but she chooses not to. Like Admiral Zhou at the end of Avatar Book 1.
Brought low though she is, she's prideful, and will still kill you if she can, just so you don't get the option of choosing what to do with her. She forces your hand, makes you finish her off. She refuses to be judged for her actions by her former friends, even when it is obvious, to her and to us, that they have lead her to ruin. The fact that it's drawn out, but you know the whole time how it has to end, that isn't a flaw, that's theater.
I don't know when I became an anti stan, but here I am apparently, lol
I loved this video :3 makes me appreciate the enemies much more
I disliked DD 1 Antiquarian, at first. It really boiled down to not understanding how to use the kit. A few guides later, she's pretty solid and pulled my estate away from financial ruin.
Antiquarian is B tier for being a fecking betrayer. Dismas was like "I'll tell you what you get, you get what you fecking deserve!" *Point blank shots*
lets say you have PD, jester, HWM and MAA. they each have their best upgrade (indiscriminate science, Encore, take aim, Bolster) but you only have 2 mastery points. which 2 would you upgrade first?
Forgive me if I got the question wrong, but if it's for the listed 4 I'd say bolster and take aim first.
PD, incision (SURGEON GAMING) and then highwayman double tap or highway robbery
im craving the next one :3
I just wish a lot of enemies weren't so versatile like needed to knock a frontliner to rank 4 to trigger a weaker hit feels like ass
And then one move and they're back at the front again next turn. Makes move skills feel kind of useless.
Kinda surprised pillager crackshot made it into C only when he has a 100% stun chance on front mortar
I hate the cannon just coz it takes significantly longer to kill than any other 2-size faction tank, but is significantly less threatening and doesn't really do any protecting. Also surprised that misfire is a 25% chance, I've seen it like once or twice over a ton of fights.
Gonna talk about Ghoul because he's one of my favourite DD1 enemies.
- First off, I very much prefer his wicked, monstrous DD1 look with soulless eyes to DD2's gym bro ghoul.
- His early Dodge after each move was fucking annoying and I dunno why they decided to even add that - I'm very happy that they went back to his DD1 iteration with Block instead.
- Howl reducing Torch by 10 is actually fine because it has a 2-round cooldown. He's not gonna use this more than twice, most of the time once. In DD1, he can use Howl back to back.
- As for Skull Toss being used at the front - that's basically how he was in DD1. Would you rather he only uses Rend? That's quite boring.
All in all, this makes me think your partner Sammy hasn't played DD1.
Wait what’s the woodsman lore????
Spoilers:
It's suggested that he's runaways adoptive father :(
@@ShuffleFM
Does that mean that he survived the fire?
@@stevnguy dude is a zombie so I doubt it lol
@@ShuffleFMWait, gaunts are actually zombies? I was sure they're just degenerated, half-starved humans.
I can’t believe there is another human that still uses “morbillion” when exaggerating numbers, my kin.
it'd be great if pillager crackshot would be unable to use "front mortar" on turn 1.
what do you think of trying to fix enemies by restricting moves from turn 1 for example. it is a band-aid but it prevents a mini balance nightmare where, turn 1 insta stun might be too oppressive whilst no stun or damage in other turns, may be too easy
also about this enemy in general, I have a different experience, I really like that they're really threatening in rank 4 but not in rank 3. it feels really good to just put them out of the fight so easily. it gives my whole team kind of a breather. I don't think every enemy should provide that much oppression all the time, after-all, crackshot isn't in a mini boss fight, he's just a regular road battle dude
It was done once in DD1, remember the third darkest dungeon quest? Spoilers below.
The white cell stalk that teleports you away from the fight cannot use teleport on the first turn of combat, only on the second turn and beyond, without that low risk 1st turn, dealing with the cyst would be almost impossible without a huge stun/sustain composition.
They should only have combo stuns like us.
Just lost my third run to Focused Fault. AGHHHH
Where part 2 ?
Soon!
Seeing how much I disagree with this designer and his idea of """fun""" or what the devs thought was a "problem" in the first game explains why I don't like DD2 that much
Spider combo is the worst.
Why does it sound like the other guy talking is being held at gunpoint trying to finish a sentence.
Like spit it out already oml
If I was being held at gunpoint, wouldn’t that mean I’d spit it out sooner? 🤔
It's called thinking. Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the concept.
It’s called thinking on what to say. They can’t just spit it out already, they need to think it through otherwise they’d be speaking nonsense.
Please learn to be patient.
@@SovietSnake89 must be slow at thinking ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
@@blmao5150 We're so much more intelligent than you, get the bad vibes outta here lesser being.