I've been building a lyre from scratch as my first instrument, somewhat inventing the design as I go. I think it's funny how so much of my process is just all this "start small and sneak up on the final shape," and then seeing the same idea here. It's funny how much of the design is "design it in such a way that the joint is going to fit first, and then remove material after you do that." I love making instruments. It takes so much patience, but it is so rewarding as well.
Thanks for your comment! My term for this kind of building is "fitted by hand and eye". Another way of putting it is fitting by trial and error. No amount of template-making or jigs can really replace this basic element of joinery. The design of the lute is dictated by historical practice, though there is a well-known saying that if you make a precise copy of a historical instrument you will be disappointed. The design of wooden objects from 1000 AD to 1600 is the pre-industrial design era. After that it's all precision engineering in which parts are interchangeable. Good luck with your project, and thanks for watching. Clive
@@EarlyMusicStudio1 Thank you for posting the video. I want to make a lute next, I'll have to see where to get one of those nails because I'd like to use that method of joining the neck!
@@hellomate639 These nails are called Roman nails or rose-headed nails. I had mine made by a farrier but you might find one in a specialty hardware store. The nail should be square with a good head and made of iron, not steel. It should measure about 150 mm and be about 8 mm at the top, tapering to a point. File off any lumps or bumps.
All very similar to fitting a very large Chisel Tang but I normally do that with a slightly bigger tubular hole and Araldite . Lately my chisel handles are secure using Resin Putty. The rough surface of this big nail follows what I do with Tangs as well . Brilliant commentary all through this epic event .Stradivari would be very proud of you .
stradivarius used the same method, he heated the nails up as well before driving them into the sycamore, which apparently improves how easy it is to drive in.
When I watch guitar maker videos they do not seem to have a wooden gauge clamped on the neck with an extension to touch the bridge belly position .That is the violin makers method described in the Heron Allen book "Violin Making as it was and is "
These little block that I screw to the main block serve two important functions: one is to register the joint exactly plane with the neck surface, making for easy repeat fitting; another is to prevent creeping when the glue is added. Any force pararell to the main plane of the top/neck surface will cause the joint to slide slightly forward, disrupting the careful fitting of the back and neck veneer. When I used screws, this problem was very common and hard to fix, but with the nail, it just does not happen. It's one of the advantages of the nail. Thanks for your comments and compliments...C
Hi Liz, thanks for your question. I use old-style cotton fibre drywall tape, cut into 30 mm strips and glued with fish glue. I clean the ribs carefully with acetone before gluing, to remove oil from the rosewood. A mandolin from 1850 that I fixed, was completely lined by the original maker with something like watercolour paper. So I conclude that this is an essential element of the lute's structural integrity.
At the beginning of the video, you say you want 1-2mm of action at the neckblock, but at the end of the video you say you want to plane the neck until it's parallel with the neckblock. Do you want action at the neckblock or not?
Yes, you need I to 2 mm of action, but the body has still to be scooped, the fingerboard is scraped, and the underlying neck block is relieved to have a negative action of a few .01 mm from about the fifth fret back to the nut. The neck action is mainly measured in the centre, but modified to create the shape of the string choir that you want eventually. It's quite complex in shape, accommodating both the playing strings, the first and second frets of the 7th to 9th courses, and the centre courses, which like slightly higher in an arc. The bridge is also drilled to accommodate the action, it must be measured and marked from the actual assembled body, neck and bridge, all being mocked up with tape, marked, fitted and scraped properly after the fitting of the soundboard, fingerboard, and beards. This is the luthier's principal opportunity for musical finishing--making the lute play well and buzz-free even when played with some enthusiasm. Many lutes fail this test, and it has to satisfy the purchaser. This is why we get paid the big money! Thanks for your leading question, c. I should add that the order is not fixed, many luthier's can manage without these refinements, but I have seen how historical lutes deviate from their ideal shapes, and this is the main reason. Also, lutes move after stringing, this also must be foreseen and accommodated.Thanks for your leading question, c.
Most historic instruments from the classic period of the lute used the Roman nail and mortise method. Now many makers use screws; it's a lot quicker. Mass-produced metal screws were not in use until the 19th century.
@@twokool4skool129 In the 1950's a number of German lute makers trying to revive the art of lute making, used a sliding dovetail from the neck into the body. These are sometimes also seen on multi-string 'lutars' made in eastern Europe. Essentially it is an attempt to offset increased string tension by using guitar stringing on the lute. Period instrument makers generally avoid these refinements.
how do you go about getting all of the strips to line up and stay together at each end? it makes sense with the block near the neck, but there's only a strip at the other end; is that enough? or so you add another strip on the outside as well?
Thanks for the question...yes, there is another piece on the outside, called the capping strip. It's usually made from a leftover rib, or it can be built up from a number of pieces. There's also a spruce liner on the inside which helps to anchor the soundboard.
@@EarlyMusicStudio1 thanks for the reply! i ask because i'm binging your vids to see if it'd be harder to build a lute vs a gittern, where the gittern has a hollowed out body from a single block. the more i look into making lute ribs, the more i want to just concede and make a wood bending station, not too dissimilar to yours. already have some wood chosen for the job, but i haven't fully committed to any design yet. either way is still going to be strung the same way. have you ever made a gittern, or something similar? PS: i have an additional question! when you're gluing the ribs, which i've seen in your 2 parter set of vids, do you need to overbend the ribs in order for them to be in the right position? how do you guarantee that at the base of the bowl opposite the neck all of the ribs stay put? is this where your thumb-tack technique comes in handy? sorry for the barrage of text but advice from a luthier himself is top tier and i don't plan on passing it up if i can
@@SassyTesla Hi SassyT: You have bitten off a big chunk here! The gittern is more of a carving, uses adzez, chisels, drills etc. The lute is more of a construction with thinly scraped material glued on edge. This makes the two projects very different in realization. Try getting Robert Lundberg's book on lute construction from the Guild of American LUthiers to have a good idea of the scale of lute making. There are also good books and plans for medieval instruments. Kits are a introductory way to get making instruments without the pain of tool and wood selection and prep. Get a drawing and stick to it, that's my advice to start. Woodworking skill is slow to acquire, and hard to find out, but it's out there. clive
@@EarlyMusicStudio1 thanks for the recommended reads, I'll look into them asap. I've made some carved out instruments before, so it won't be a huge departure for me. I was just thinking of making it different than my angle saxon lyre. I think I've decided to carve out my new instrument gittern/citole/early medieval stringyboi, like my lyre. Still binging your vids for ideas and whatnot, and I'll have to make a lute after making my gittern lol. I'm really glad you post these videos as a resource. keep uploading! Thank you so much for all your help.
Thank you Clive for this and all you lute building videos, they are very informative and interesting. Do you also glue the neck joint with the instrument in this horizontal orientation? I’m building my first lute and am quite concerned about the possibility of losing the “action” when glueing this joint. Your setup seems to keep things well controlled and allows good visibility and access.
Hi Jorma, You can make a fixture (a block with the shape of the neck cut out, lined with cork or soft material) and mount the project so that the neck joint faces you. When everything fits, you put the glue on both surfaces and hammer the nail home. Proper fitting and choice of suitable wood ensures that the wood won't split. Best of luck with your project and thanks for watching!
Well hard to say without seeing or knowing more. Usually a lute top has a "potato chip" contour, which forms around the bridge due to string tension. But if the action is too high or low, the instrument may be uncomfortable or unplayable. The height of the first string should be 4.2 mm at the body/neck joint. If too high, the top is removed, some wood around the bottom is planed off, top replaced. If too low, you can shim the bridge with a 1 or 2 mm veneer that covers the whole bridge or part thereof. Without more info, it's hard to say more. Thanks for the question, Clive
action is about 6mm both sides at the 8th fret.. I am going to lie it face down apply steam to the neck joint through the sound hole if poss.... put some weight on the body to reduce the neck angle and hot water bottles around the joint insulated with covers and leave a few days.. I worked with a classical guitar of mine with a backbow neck. The bowl might get damaged is my main thought.@@EarlyMusicStudio1
This is not the recommended procedure, and will probably result in fracture of the joint. Best to remove the top using moisture (not wet) and masking tape, don't take it off the main block. Remove material from the lower portion, re-glue the top. Can be done by a competent luthier in 24 hours. If the neck is curved, then remove the fingerboard, plane flat and re-glue or replace. Depends on the whole appearance of the action. Excessive string tension probably did not cause this, as many think, but indifferent assembly and action testing was the cause.
@@EarlyMusicStudio1 thanks for your advice.. I agree assembly problem... It was a kit I think.. I can see me having difficulty taking the required amount off the bowl (also how does the collar on the bout come off?) So am going to try a more restraind gentle effort using the weight, moisture and heat method.if no joy I will see if I can get top off.
@@paulcrawford5153Aha! No you don't take the capping strip off. Mark how much you want to remove by estimating: if you need 2 less action, you need 3 mm removed, very approximate. Tape this area around at the bottom of the bowl until it takes on the new contour, zero at the area around the rose. Another way to remove material is first use a scalpel or other small very sharp knife, making little shallow cuts. Then use a sanding stick with 80 grit one side, 120 on the other. For the rib area not capped use a scalpel and pare off the material, then sand smooth. To remove the top used a folded cotton strip the whole way around (t shirt material, knitted is ideal) moisten it, then make a shallow knife mark around the whole joint, water will penetrate. Tape up the whole thing with painter's tape overnight, test in the morning. Apply gentle heat witha small iron set on low, buffered with a tea towel or cloth. Gently lift with a pallet knife, being careful about the bars, which must be carefully disjointed. Worth a try. c
Custom made by a blacksmith, about 15 cm long, rose head, also known as Roman nails.square section about 1 cm at the head. Most 25 lb anvils have a standard square hole intended for making them. Thanks, Clive
The nails are fairly common, but not long enough. If you have a company that does wrought iron for stairs, balconies, gates, that will do it. Some artists who do welding and other commercial work also do special orders. Not that hard to find, iron is a very workable and common material. Machine shops might also do some nails. best, c @@guitarmanjoe9450
Oh, you definitely use a hammer. Brass. Heavy. Then pliers to remove it. This you do many times until the fit is perfect. It would be nice to just bang it in, but it is actually more like a mortise. This type of nail is still in use for timber framing of buildings--with much the same procedure. thanks for your comment, C
I've been building a lyre from scratch as my first instrument, somewhat inventing the design as I go.
I think it's funny how so much of my process is just all this "start small and sneak up on the final shape," and then seeing the same idea here. It's funny how much of the design is "design it in such a way that the joint is going to fit first, and then remove material after you do that."
I love making instruments. It takes so much patience, but it is so rewarding as well.
Thanks for your comment! My term for this kind of building is "fitted by hand and eye". Another way of putting it is fitting by trial and error. No amount of template-making or jigs can really replace this basic element of joinery. The design of the lute is dictated by historical practice, though there is a well-known saying that if you make a precise copy of a historical instrument you will be disappointed. The design of wooden objects from 1000 AD to 1600 is the pre-industrial design era. After that it's all precision engineering in which parts are interchangeable.
Good luck with your project, and thanks for watching.
Clive
@@EarlyMusicStudio1 Thank you for posting the video. I want to make a lute next, I'll have to see where to get one of those nails because I'd like to use that method of joining the neck!
@@hellomate639 These nails are called Roman nails or rose-headed nails. I had mine made by a farrier but you might find one in a specialty hardware store. The nail should be square with a good head and made of iron, not steel. It should measure about 150 mm and be about 8 mm at the top, tapering to a point. File off any lumps or bumps.
All very similar to fitting a very large Chisel Tang but I normally do that with a slightly bigger tubular hole and Araldite . Lately my chisel handles are secure using Resin Putty. The rough surface of this big nail follows what I do with Tangs as well .
Brilliant commentary all through this epic event .Stradivari would be very proud of you .
stradivarius used the same method, he heated the nails up as well before driving them into the sycamore, which apparently improves how easy it is to drive in.
Hi and thanks for the interesting comment! I haven't heard of that but it's worth a try.
When I watch guitar maker videos they do not seem to have a wooden gauge clamped on the neck with an extension to touch the bridge belly position .That is the violin makers method described in the Heron Allen book "Violin Making as it was and is "
These little block that I screw to the main block serve two important functions: one is to register the joint exactly plane with the neck surface, making for easy repeat fitting; another is to prevent creeping when the glue is added. Any force pararell to the main plane of the top/neck surface will cause the joint to slide slightly forward, disrupting the careful fitting of the back and neck veneer. When I used screws, this problem was very common and hard to fix, but with the nail, it just does not happen. It's one of the advantages of the nail. Thanks for your comments and compliments...C
Can you tell me the material used inside the body to strengthen the body strips at the but joint of each looks like 20mm material fixed with glue
Hi Liz, thanks for your question. I use old-style cotton fibre drywall tape, cut into 30 mm strips and glued with fish glue. I clean the ribs carefully with acetone before gluing, to remove oil from the rosewood. A mandolin from 1850 that I fixed, was completely lined by the original maker with something like watercolour paper. So I conclude that this is an essential element of the lute's structural integrity.
@@EarlyMusicStudio1 that's nuts, i just thought they had ribbing in them, put in after you take it off the mould.
@@SassyTesla Yes, the paper is put in after the bowl comes off the mould.
At the beginning of the video, you say you want 1-2mm of action at the neckblock, but at the end of the video you say you want to plane the neck until it's parallel with the neckblock. Do you want action at the neckblock or not?
Yes, you need I to 2 mm of action, but the body has still to be scooped, the fingerboard is scraped, and the underlying neck block is relieved to have a negative action of a few .01 mm from about the fifth fret back to the nut. The neck action is mainly measured in the centre, but modified to create the shape of the string choir that you want eventually. It's quite complex in shape, accommodating both the playing strings, the first and second frets of the 7th to 9th courses, and the centre courses, which like slightly higher in an arc. The bridge is also drilled to accommodate the action, it must be measured and marked from the actual assembled body, neck and bridge, all being mocked up with tape, marked, fitted and scraped properly after the fitting of the soundboard, fingerboard, and beards. This is the luthier's principal opportunity for musical finishing--making the lute play well and buzz-free even when played with some enthusiasm. Many lutes fail this test, and it has to satisfy the purchaser. This is why we get paid the big money! Thanks for your leading question, c. I should add that the order is not fixed, many luthier's can manage without these refinements, but I have seen how historical lutes deviate from their ideal shapes, and this is the main reason. Also, lutes move after stringing, this also must be foreseen and accommodated.Thanks for your leading question, c.
Great process. Did all lutes always use an enormous nail to join the neck, or did some use different joining mechanisms?
Most historic instruments from the classic period of the lute used the Roman nail and mortise method. Now many makers use screws; it's a lot quicker. Mass-produced metal screws were not in use until the 19th century.
@@EarlyMusicStudio1 Does anyone use any pure woodworking joints, like a dovetail, sort of how some guitar necks are made?
@@twokool4skool129 In the 1950's a number of German lute makers trying to revive the art of lute making, used a sliding dovetail from the neck into the body. These are sometimes also seen on multi-string 'lutars' made in eastern Europe. Essentially it is an attempt to offset increased string tension by using guitar stringing on the lute. Period instrument makers generally avoid these refinements.
how do you go about getting all of the strips to line up and stay together at each end? it makes sense with the block near the neck, but there's only a strip at the other end; is that enough? or so you add another strip on the outside as well?
Thanks for the question...yes, there is another piece on the outside, called the capping strip. It's usually made from a leftover rib, or it can be built up from a number of pieces. There's also a spruce liner on the inside which helps to anchor the soundboard.
@@EarlyMusicStudio1 thanks for the reply! i ask because i'm binging your vids to see if it'd be harder to build a lute vs a gittern, where the gittern has a hollowed out body from a single block. the more i look into making lute ribs, the more i want to just concede and make a wood bending station, not too dissimilar to yours. already have some wood chosen for the job, but i haven't fully committed to any design yet. either way is still going to be strung the same way. have you ever made a gittern, or something similar?
PS: i have an additional question! when you're gluing the ribs, which i've seen in your 2 parter set of vids, do you need to overbend the ribs in order for them to be in the right position? how do you guarantee that at the base of the bowl opposite the neck all of the ribs stay put? is this where your thumb-tack technique comes in handy?
sorry for the barrage of text but advice from a luthier himself is top tier and i don't plan on passing it up if i can
@@SassyTesla Hi SassyT: You have bitten off a big chunk here! The gittern is more of a carving, uses adzez, chisels, drills etc. The lute is more of a construction with thinly scraped material glued on edge. This makes the two projects very different in realization. Try getting Robert Lundberg's book on lute construction from the Guild of American LUthiers to have a good idea of the scale of lute making. There are also good books and plans for medieval instruments. Kits are a introductory way to get making instruments without the pain of tool and wood selection and prep. Get a drawing and stick to it, that's my advice to start. Woodworking skill is slow to acquire, and hard to find out, but it's out there.
clive
@@EarlyMusicStudio1 thanks for the recommended reads, I'll look into them asap. I've made some carved out instruments before, so it won't be a huge departure for me. I was just thinking of making it different than my angle saxon lyre. I think I've decided to carve out my new instrument gittern/citole/early medieval stringyboi, like my lyre. Still binging your vids for ideas and whatnot, and I'll have to make a lute after making my gittern lol. I'm really glad you post these videos as a resource. keep uploading! Thank you so much for all your help.
Thank you Clive for this and all you lute building videos, they are very informative and interesting.
Do you also glue the neck joint with the instrument in this horizontal orientation? I’m building my first lute and am quite concerned about the possibility of losing the “action” when glueing this joint. Your setup seems to keep things well controlled and allows good visibility and access.
Hi Jorma, You can make a fixture (a block with the shape of the neck cut out, lined with cork or soft material) and mount the project so that the neck joint faces you. When everything fits, you put the glue on both surfaces and hammer the nail home. Proper fitting and choice of suitable wood ensures that the wood won't split. Best of luck with your project and thanks for watching!
Thank you!
Hi, I got a cheap lute.. the top is a bit warped... would you recommend sanding it flat? or trying to bend it with heat and stuff? thanks,
Well hard to say without seeing or knowing more. Usually a lute top has a "potato chip" contour, which forms around the bridge due to string tension. But if the action is too high or low, the instrument may be uncomfortable or unplayable. The height of the first string should be 4.2 mm at the body/neck joint. If too high, the top is removed, some wood around the bottom is planed off, top replaced. If too low, you can shim the bridge with a 1 or 2 mm veneer that covers the whole bridge or part thereof. Without more info, it's hard to say more. Thanks for the question, Clive
action is about 6mm both sides at the 8th fret.. I am going to lie it face down apply steam to the neck joint through the sound hole if poss.... put some weight on the body to reduce the neck angle and hot water bottles around the joint insulated with covers and leave a few days.. I worked with a classical guitar of mine with a backbow neck. The bowl might get damaged is my main thought.@@EarlyMusicStudio1
This is not the recommended procedure, and will probably result in fracture of the joint. Best to remove the top using moisture (not wet) and masking tape, don't take it off the main block. Remove material from the lower portion, re-glue the top. Can be done by a competent luthier in 24 hours. If the neck is curved, then remove the fingerboard, plane flat and re-glue or replace. Depends on the whole appearance of the action.
Excessive string tension probably did not cause this, as many think, but indifferent assembly and action testing was the cause.
@@EarlyMusicStudio1 thanks for your advice.. I agree assembly problem... It was a kit I think.. I can see me having difficulty taking the required amount off the bowl (also how does the collar on the bout come off?) So am going to try a more restraind gentle effort using the weight, moisture and heat method.if no joy I will see if I can get top off.
@@paulcrawford5153Aha! No you don't take the capping strip off. Mark how much you want to remove by estimating: if you need 2 less action, you need 3 mm removed, very approximate. Tape this area around at the bottom of the bowl until it takes on the new contour, zero at the area around the rose. Another way to remove material is first use a scalpel or other small very sharp knife, making little shallow cuts. Then use a sanding stick with 80 grit one side, 120 on the other. For the rib area not capped use a scalpel and pare off the material, then sand smooth.
To remove the top used a folded cotton strip the whole way around (t shirt material, knitted is ideal) moisten it, then make a shallow knife mark around the whole joint, water will penetrate. Tape up the whole thing with painter's tape overnight, test in the morning. Apply gentle heat witha small iron set on low, buffered with a tea towel or cloth. Gently lift with a pallet knife, being careful about the bars, which must be carefully disjointed. Worth a try. c
Where do you get those nails
Custom made by a blacksmith, about 15 cm long, rose head, also known as Roman nails.square section about 1 cm at the head. Most 25 lb anvils have a standard square hole intended for making them. Thanks, Clive
@@EarlyMusicStudio1 so there's no company that makes those nails now, you still have to find a blacksmith.
The nails are fairly common, but not long enough. If you have a company that does wrought iron for stairs, balconies, gates, that will do it. Some artists who do welding and other commercial work also do special orders. Not that hard to find, iron is a very workable and common material. Machine shops might also do some nails. best, c
@@guitarmanjoe9450
One might usually associate a nail with a hammer - obviously not in this case :) :)
Oh, you definitely use a hammer. Brass. Heavy. Then pliers to remove it. This you do many times until the fit is perfect. It would be nice to just bang it in, but it is actually more like a mortise. This type of nail is still in use for timber framing of buildings--with much the same procedure. thanks for your comment, C