I disagree with the idea people wouldn't doom roll for legendaries if they where less common. Players will 100% keep hitting the Goblin Lotto until they get the biggest number, it would just mean they have to do so longer.
personally if the reforges beside the best ones werent completely useless, i would actually just roll with those if i got them. if i found myself struggling on a boss or had the extra money, then i would go for legendary modifiers. the point is that you're not completely being screwed over by not having legendary and would make weapon progression less linear. plus with the system this video talks about, certain weapons would have reforges that are more suited for them and would be better than legendaries.
yeah, its true. optimizing fun away is something to consider. Though as sorbet said, it just has to be fun. I'd probably try but then just use what I get, as I usually do, as the "most optimal" stuff is less fun to me after playing the game like that for so long
Idk i usually just go for one that's decent enough, i'd rather settle for murderous or superior than spend 5-6 platinum for a chance at legendary or unreal
@@Sir_Noel hear me out, only specific weapons can get the top tier reforges and they can only get it through crafting, ideally mark shimmered crafting mats to stop shimmer cycling crafts for top level enchants
this actually reminded me of a weapon idea a had a few months ago, a duke fishron whip that created a sharknado in front of the player where if any minion touched it, they would get a movement and attack speed buff, to make the tempest staff a bit better.
At the very least I wish the goblin tinkerer gave you a better chance for a better reforge if he was happier so that reforging doesn't feel completely random
One thing they NEEDED to do, was make more reforges = better. If you reforge once, you might get anything. If you reforge 5 times, then you won't get any negative reforges. If you reforge 10 times, you get the top 5. And 15 times, you're guaranteed Legendary/Mythical/Godly/etc.
Personally I'd take getting rid of the re-roll system and just let the player pick what they want. Could even implement extra cost or even make them need additional crafting resources to access the better ones
To respond to your question regarding mage players: I play mage almost exclusively, and I never use arcane once I have the option. I've always preferred full warding. If arcane was -4% mana cost, I would use arcane much more.
Yes exactly this. Idgaf how much mana I have if after the first 3 minutes of fighting results in my damage being cut in half due to mana potions. Of course most magic weapons cost very little actually so I don’t know if 4% would really do anything
@@blademasterzero this is why, as a mage main, I always make sure to keep an off class weapon handy, so I can just abuse Mana Regen instead of the crippling from Mana Potions for as much of the game as possible.
Huh. Reforges have been the same for so long that I kind of took them for granted, but your suggestions are legitimately a really good idea. I genuinely hope someone on the dev team sees this and buffs the bad reforges at least a little in 1.4.5
Though, I don’t think they should make Legendary/Unreal rarer though to incentivize using other reforges, if it’ll still be objectively the best. I think that’ll just incentivize grinding even more and otherwise feel bad (unless there was something else new to make it clear that they are super rare and you shouldn’t feel bad if you don’t get them)
Alternatively take them out of the rotation and make it so you can get them through some other guaranteed fashion, maybe using the shimmer + some big grind based on its tier @@Hateful_Bug
i think part of the problem is that the reforges were made when it was only classic difficulty where it doesnt really matter in the end which one you get
Plus they were ABHORRENTLY expensive and you just took what you got, you couldn't fish for the best one unless you spent an absurd amount of time money farming. Every accessory costed, like, 10+ gold, wings costed 40, lategame weapons were 20+, and you were working with classic money drop rates
@@sorbetcafe I know what I'm about to say is modded, but reforge prices seem to be based on the items stats, and I ended up reforging a weapon for 1 platinum and 68 gold EACH reforge. If I didn't have the ability to farm gold through deviantt gold slime spawns then I would absolutely never be able to play around that. Especially on a mode like eternity-death where farming is somewhat tedious
@@hellsgames5322 Reforge costs are actually based on a weapons given "Buy" value, which is also what determines how much it sells for. This means that later game stuff has a higher value given to it so that it sells for a good amount if you happen to want to sell it, but this also makes reforges cost more. I know this, because the Gungnir used to have the highest of this value when reforging was added, which made it cost about a platinum and a half to reforge it from base. In a later update, they did change the multiplier used for reforges to make them cheaper, and also reduced the Gungnir's coin value too, so they made reforges a lot more accessible for the player. Though, since the buffs from reforges are so small, I'm pretty sure you could easily beat the game on Master without any reforges at all, because a 15% bonus isn't even that crazy anyways, especially early game where you don't even do enough damage for that to make a difference outside of use speed (Which, as Sorbet pointed out, is a very finnicky metric in the first place)
one of my favourite early terraria memories was getting a "legendary zombie arm" drop really early on, me and my brother kept getting to the next pre hardmode sword only to find it wasn't as good as our legendary zombie arm, having that "oh SHIT i got legendary" effect would be a whole lot better, but what would be even better was if there was a moment of "hell yeah, i got frenzying" or "woah i got a huge breaker blade lets goooo"
Bare minimum, I think ReLog needs to make it so that you can't get the same reforge twice in a row from the tinkerer. Whenever that happens I inexplicably gain the overwhelming urge to help expand wikipedia's list of warcrimes article.
In terms of the legendary/unreal/mythical reforges, I was thinking instead of making them rarer, they'd only be obtainable through some sort of external condition. Maybe it'd be something like only having them be possible at a high happiness level for the Tinkerer, or maybe something like Fire Emblem 4's system where getting enough kills on a specific weapon powers it up. Having the highest-tier modifiers only unlock after using the weapon for a good while would encourage messing around with all the other reforges while you use the weapon normally, and give a sense of "balance" to the modifiers just being a global stat boost. It gives the option between continuing to use an old weapon with a strong stat boost, or getting a new weapon from the progress you've likely made in the time it took to unlock. It's still susceptible to automatic farms or whatnot to grind the unlock open, but it's at least a more interesting barrier than just money + luck.
The only of these suggestions that would work, in my opinion, is the happiness one. NPCs already sell you pylons if they're happy enough, so doing this is pretty internally consistent. That would also help with confusion, which the other solution could only make worse.
@@Gefdragoon Yeah, as fun as I think the kill count method would be, it's a decently complex system for what's just supposed to lock off a few modifiers. Then again, these are the same devs that put torch luck into the game without telling anyone, so I don't think it's *completely* out of the question :P
@@QJrocks yeah if the fact that Terraria has had multiple "final" updates is any indication, it seems like the devs just like working on the game, so I don't think that would be out of the question
To be fair, putting the goblin in hell is the most efficient place to put him, given that he is happiest underground and having a pylon in hell allows you to teleport there instantly. I think the devs created this system just to incentivize putting the tinkerer in hell
For Summoner, you could incease or decrease the summons aggressiveness. A higher aggressiveness would mean that it actively hunts down enemies in a higher range, similar to the stardust dragon staff, while a lower aggressiveness makes it more defensive, since it doesn‘t get distracted so easily
@@sock1 Did you read the comment it's completely different. Get a modifier with higher aggressiveness if you want to say deal with enemies from farther away that say also decreases damage and knockback and if you want something for enemies that are going to be closer to you that deals higher damage and knockback
appreciate the effort to come up with something unique but this ain't it chief. it's too complicated of a mechanic for something like a reforge modifier. it feels a bit too bloated and would probably be an effect that requires the wiki to explain it (damage, crit, melee speed, movement speed, mana are self explanatory but what exactly is minion aggressiveness?) furthermore I don't think this is really something a summoner would want to have over defense or damage. it doesn't feel impactful at all and it's also probably not increasable in 1% increments, would most likely have to be a different system which would also suck again since it's too different from the other modifiers then.
That Frenzying change actually gives me an idea for a new ranger reforge stat; accuracy Imagine increased spread on frenzying to offset the fact that it had fairly high dps - to be reliable you’d have to generally be closer than a ranger would like to be.
@@crep50 personally I think they should either weaken the homing greatly, have a new effect, or just flat out remove them from the game, but like chloro has existed for so long and been an integral part of ranger that it might need a few patches worth of updates to buff stuff like chain gun/tac/etc that were carried by chloro. No matter how little damage chloro does (it has a base dmg of 9 compared to the musket ball's 7 and the ichor bullet's 13), it'll still be very consistent due to its strong homing
Wanna know something that makes melee speed *even clunkier* than it already is??? In short, the swing animation is broken and skips the first frame _every single time_ , which isn't noticeable at low speeds, but *completely* changes the game at high speeds. For example: let's say we have 2 players, one on vanilla (bug unfixed) and the other in tmodloader (bug fixed), and they're both going for 134% melee speed with a legendary terra blade. In vanilla, that tblade is gonna have 6 use time, or in other words it's gonna swing 10 times a second, while in tml it would have 7, which is 8.5 swings per sec. That's a free 17% increase to your damage, which is *insane* , and is the reason why the terra blade was so powerful initially, and this also affects literally everything else, making melee speed a bit stronger than intended.
I agree with most of this video and reforges definitely need a rework. But I believe your idea of making the legendary/mythical/unreal reforges super rare would only worsen things since a lot of people naturally gravitate towards more effective options even if they are particularly tedious and/or don't make sense to farm for. It will just make them fish for these modifiers for longer periods of time. You could say it's their problem and you would be correct, but I would suggest, if you want to make reforges into this trade-off system, is to just remove modifiers that give pure upsides or actually nerf them. Like, if you want just the bonus without drawbacks, you only get +5%-10% to a stat.
I agree. Having rare reforges that are still objectively better gets us back to square one (being that most modifiers are irrelevant). I would like to see modifiers be almost like deep rock galactic’s overclocks (minus the extreme overclocks changing functions completely). If you want pure upsides, you have to go with a safe modifier that with smaller boosts. If you want extreme boosts (like legendary) it’s balanced by big downsides (so it’s different, rather than objectively better).
No, that would not Y'all just love gambling I think, I've never tried going out of my way to get the best of the best If they want to go to extreme lengths, like he said, the buffs legendary would give would weigh that time
@@jonathansten3949 It's not about gambling at all. Gambling includes risks, with the system we have, there are no risks involved, only time you have to spend farming money. It's not paticularly fun, nor interesting. Good for you that you don't have the problem of overly min-maxing everything. But some people do. I am like that with fishing for rng upgrades unless I actively stop myself from it. And I have more fun with the game when I don't spend hours farming money to reforge a weapon from demonic to legendary. So I propose to either remove legendary tier reforges entirely or make them in line with the fixes mentioned in the video (that is, if they are to have no downsides, they should give weaker buffs when compared to reforges with downsides).
the comically large breaker blade at 5:06 reminded me of the 40m long blade from soul knight which essentially is thrice as large as other melee weapons but has an attack cooldown of like 1,5s and below average damage
This is probably my favourite criticism of Terraria - changing the reforge system to something where there isn't a BEST modifier and more variation would be so good.
Oh my god, most of the issues with the modifier system is EXACTLY what I've been saying about Minecraft's enchanting system. Most mutually exclusive enchantments (sharpness/smite/bane of arthropods or protection/fire prot/projectile prot/blast prot) are EXTREMELY overshadowed by one option, and the fact there's no limit on enchantments means there's no reason to experiment or diversify, as the 'god set' overshadows anything else, and a significant portion of the game is solely dedicated to grinding out the same enchantments as everyone else
I love the idea of making the trade-off buffs more worthwhile, the reforge system has been something I've always either half-heartedly clicked through until I run out of money, or ignored altogether and just taken whatever the first all-positive buff I got was. With more unique strategies, it'd make reforging far more interesting, and the only real remaining flaw is the Tinkerer himself, who I think should just... sell reforges from a special menu, maybe keeping the random mechanic at a lower cost than buying the reforge. As for summoner reforges, there's plenty I can think of that, yes, would introduce new mechanics, but they would be much needed mechanics that I think Summoner should have anyways, and giving them small downsides from Reforges could balance it out: 1. Focused: Causes minions to be more "accurate" and stick closer to the target, or player, if no enemies are nearby, making them less likely to just fly around in circles for five hours before deciding to maaaaybe run into the target. This would come at a small downside of 15% less attack speed, lowering how often Minions can attack, about evening out the damage they deal while keeping that damage more consistent. 2. Uncontrollable: Minions are now 20% faster and deal 20% more damage, however they cannot gain whip damage buffs (this doesn't effect other summoned minions, of course). This would be ideal for minions that don't synergize well with whips or their effects, just using them for targeting. 3. Parasitic: Minions do 15% more damage to enemies with debuffs, however they deal 20% less damage to non-debuffed enemies. This would be amazing on minions like the Hornet staff, Imps, and would give good synergy with debuff-inflicting whips (might need to exclude the Dark Harvest's debuff if it proves to be too strong). 4. Luminescent: Minions will glow in the dark, lighting up the area around them. Enemies that are hit by these minions will also give off light temporarily, if they didn't already. (This is more of a fun, niche idea that might be better off just being a cool attribute of an individual summon weapon, but I still liked it enough to share here.) 5. Cared-for: Minions are 20% bigger, and deal 15% more damage, however they move 20% slower. Fat minions, amazing for hordes or stationary bosses, especially on already fast minions. 6. Wild: Minions can now crit enemies, for a base 8% chance, however their base damage is reduced by -20%. (Magic weapon modifiers still wouldn't allow minions to crit) 7. Precise: Another variant of Wild, with only a 5% crit chance, but with a more manageable downside of -10% size and -10% speed.
@@Throarbin It probably can, TModLoader lets you hook into and change a whole bunch of vanilla behaviors. Some mods can alter how the reforging system rolls the reforges (mainly Calamity), so I don't really doubt that they could change the reforges themselves
Honestly I agree with everything here. Red needs to see this Other than making "the best reforge" rarer. It dodges the question instead of fixing it Also Mana regen is HUGE in mage since Mana potion do really decrease damage
Also it's a shame heavy melee weapons don't give any armor penetration. It would make a lot of sense to do that. Or make frenzy reforge deal even less damage against defense. It would make that reforge very good against some enemies and bosses and terrible against the rest, but it would make it interesting imo. Also I believe Legendary/Unreal/Mythical shouldn't give any meaningful stat changes but should instead give each and every weapon some unique ability. That would also probably spice up the meta a lot depending on what those effects and abilities would be. And summoner can have reforges that would allow for more minion slots, change i-frames, give some the ability to fly or take it away for something in return, as well as whips can have mp-only reforges that would somehow buff other players.
I think getting to pick the stats would be great for reforging. The random roll is kinda the worst and most expensive part of it. Especially if you miss what you wanted to get cause of a twitchy finger. Items could roll with a random set of stats, and with enough time and money you could pay the goblin to re allocate or add stat points. The cost could still scale with the weapon and its overall quality, and you could, sacrifice some portion of the weapons stats to increase another stat. They could even let us go beyond legendary, make that like 80% stat point allocation or something, but make it wacky expensive to go beyond that.
just in general i feel as though the reforge system should be changed to be focused around more experimental and non-general effects. this is a great take on it and i think if they maybe tried adding some more stats to tweak with this then it would be great. HOWEVER, i think that keeping the reforges for legendary/unreal/mythical doesn't do enough to make these reforges viable. no matter how rare it is it's still going to be sought after. people will still farm coins so they can get a maxed out weapon. if the reforges are all situational effects that trade out certain aspects for others though, then that opens the door for a lot of creative combos that could be really fun. sighted could be a damage/accuracy/crit increase at the cost of speed to make some slower guns like muskets and snipers way crazier, you could use a tiny weapon that's incredibly fast to swing with lower damage on a melee weapon with some sort of projectile, hell you could go even further and give them truly unique effects like giving some weapons multiple projectiles at the cost of their stats. the system could be diversified in a way that makes everything sound good and gives the player the option to use basically anything they want without it being straight up horrible as for summoners i feel like the best option is making summons use up more or less summon slots. would be really fun to have a summon weapon that makes your minions smaller and deal less damage but you can have a ton of them out at once.
My suggestion for a summoner reforge: Tribal -30% damage Minions summoned by this staff cost 0.5 (so with 3 minion slots, you could summon 6, making more use of tag damage as you have more summons) They could pass this on to the "legendary" of summoner, giving slightly cheaper minions such as 0.75 per minion
@@Syuvinya blade staff does a god awfull 8 damage "Oh but it ignores armou-" shut up. That doenst affect anything when a enemy has god damm 40 defense
I have a few (mostly stupid) ideas. -Melee weapons with projectiles should be standardized to have their projectile's cooldown scale with attack speed in some way. -Personally I don't like making Legendary still objectively the best while making it rarer, I feel that would just make people grind more to still always only use it. Instead having other reforges be more situationally useful depending on the weapon and build you're running, while the Legendary equivalents are the generalist all-rounder modifiers, the baseline for the others to be compared to (since as the game currently is, legendary stats are what most people use anyway) -Ranger doesn't currently have an accessory modifier for itself. Melee has Violent, Mage has Arcane (which sucks but we do have it technically), and Summoner has.. both Violent and Arcane I guess. Don't know what Ranger would get besides ammo preservation or velocity though, and neither sound too useful (though a full velocity build sounds hilarious. Unfortunately this would further bloat the accessory reforges, but hey, mods do that anyway every time they add new classes. -Minion weapons could get some sort of modifier to how they interact with invincibility frames? Sounds like it would get broken fast but that's the best I got. Projectile minions could get firing speed bonus, but that would require a distinction between projectile and contact minions to be made with available reforges. -With the Shimmer available, there's no actual reason to reforge at the goblin anymore for any craftable item. It's really, really not hard to get infinite free reforges. Instead, what if the Goblin allowed you to pay a lot of money to get a specific reforge on an item instead of leaving it up to luck, at the cost of heavily increasing the price of a reforge? Gives a reason for the reforges to be so expensive, removes rng, makes visiting the Goblin actually feel good so people would probably like him a whole lot more, and makes grinding feel more worth it as you climb to a set price goal you actually know you'll hit once you get that money instead of sitting in your farm getting 50 platinum and going "okay, this time i will definitely get legendary in a reasonable amount of time" -Melee reforge that only works on true melee weapons, where they get much higher attack speed, some increased damage, and a size way down. Turn any weapon into the funny crimson claws. It'd be so unbalanced but I would love it.
Imagine if the goblin had specific reforges that modified how a weapon works. Turning the Uzi into a five shot burst weapon. Give a Repeater a spread shot at the cost of speed. Change a sword to a thrusting sword, but give it defense piercing (which would actually be really good with some of the bigger swords out there, since they have the range to make the thrusting sword thing work).
Genuinely great proposals here, reforges are just simply something I didn’t think about, I guess we’ve just become complacent with them, I would be super interested in seeing what Relogic would do with them if they decided to change the system, I often get scared of big changes like this in games, but somehow Relogic almost always delivers whenever they tackle something like this, hopefully someone can get this on their radar so they could at least consider it, because this video made me excited thinking about how good this system could be.
This is kinda like the nature system from pokemon. Depending on what nature a pokemon has, they can either deal more damage but are slower, or deal more sp damage but is more vulnerable. I honestly think that would be a great implementation to modifiers.
pokemon natures are similar in that they have the same issues of most being the objectively best ones depending on the pokemon. a special attacker will only ever use timid (+speed, -attack) or modest (+special attack, - attack), and a physical attacker would only use jolly (+speed, - special attack )or adamant (+attack, -special attack) because in both cases they don't lose anything by lowering the other attack stat. some tank pokemon might run other abilities like calm or impish, but for the most part there is one or two objectively best natures for each pokemon. at least the recent pokemon games let you change natures and ivs in the post game
I don't think Goblin Tinkerer or the Angler are my least favorite NPCs. That is 100% reserved for Stylist. 1)Hard to even get her to spawn. 2)Even if she does spawn she almost always needs you to have Lifeform Analyzer to even be aware she did, since the Spider caves are pitch black. 3)Dies almost immediately to Spiders on Legendary because the latter hit like a truck. 4)Because of the previous point, it is highly desirable to have a Hunter potion, lest she die if you aggro Spiders from a wrong angle. 5)Has NO functional utility, unlike the Goblin or the Angler.
Something, that would be fun to have is a similar system, as what Deep Rock Galactic has with their weapon overclocks. Some are stable, that just gives minor buffs to weapon stats, some are balanced, that gives some buffs or extra mechanics for some stat penalties, and some are unstable, that gives big penalties, but also massive other buffs or straight up change how the weapon works. (There are exceptions of course to each groups) Reforges for weapons could do something similar where big penalties could add a different big buff, or change how the weapon works entirely.
I just wanted to say that I really enjoy and appreciate your cute little scug drawings explaining things on the side in all the videos you included them in. They warm my soul :3
I love this. I never really gave thought to the current system but changing reforges up would add a whole new layer of replay ability that I think shouldn’t go unnoticed
hot take: modifiers should work like natures work in pokemon increase one stat and decrease the other. maybe 2 stats like have one for melee being melee speed and damage, but decreases size, or something then with ranged you could decrease accuracy to increase damage, or the other way around. would REALLY benefit going for a specific build instead of every single build in the world going for the same one reforge
Here's what I'd personally do with weapon modifiers: 1. Remove the best tier. "Legendary", "Mythical", etc, shouldn't exist. They just stagnate meta and boil the process down into spamming the button, even if they were exceedingly rare. 2. Remove the worst tiers from being re-rollable. Ideally, you could make a weapon and it could start with the re-roll with a decently high change, making you want to re-roll to begin with, but you can't re-roll into a bad one, removing a lot of junk from the system but keeping a reason to want to do it even if you don't want to engage with the system. 3. Make all positive re-rolls be distinct, specific and geared towards different playstyles. Ideally, armour set bonuses could be tweaked a little so that you have a reason to go for crit over damage or size over knockback, etc. 4. Change the re-roll menu. It just sucks and zooming past legendary by mistake is frustrating and annoying, and it's either a first-try re-roll and super cheap, or it's super expensive and only gets more expensive the more times you accidentally skip past what you want - Which then means you have to take it slowly, which just grinds gameplay to a halt. 5. I'm not 100% sure about this one, but - Change the resource you use to re-roll. Maybe some "essence" you gain from events? Then when you re-roll, you can gear it towards getting a certain type of re-roll (so, higher % chance to get massive and lower % chance for the rest) so it's not true RNG? I'm not sure on this one but the pure RNG nature of the system is a bit boring and one-dimensional.
Nice idea to make a more robust reforge system. However, I think people would still try to get the Legendary upgrades, and makes the game even more grindy. What I think is best, is a system that ballance the attributes. Something like mathematically working out how impactful each stat is and give them a weight (something like 1% damage is 5 weight, crit rate is 10 weight, size is 6, speed is 5 .I just threw random number, but the idea should be clear). Then, each reforge would place a priority in each stat, and an additional bonus, depending on what *rank* the reforge is. Frenzy, for example, would reduce 25 weight in damage, but gives back 25 weight in speed, plus an extra amount for it being a good reforge. Legendary is the highest rank reforge, would give the most bonus, but no spread them out evenly between each attributes. Godly or mythical would also give a ballance spread, but with slightly different emphasis on certain stats (godly would be slightly bigger and slower, and mythical would be slightly smaller but fast or something)
I agree completely. The biggest issue for me is that there is "One best modifier." That is the #1 thing that I want changed. There is no reason to explore or use the system when there just Is a best one.
I think the best way to deal with legendary/mythical/unreal is just to remove them. Make a new modifier, “adept” or “well-rounded,” that gives a similar all-around buff, but one that’s smaller. That way you can have an all around boost, or specialize. It might be worth considering reworking legend/mythic/unreal into a different system that improves your weapon in a way that doesn’t drain your entire piggy bank. Idk how to it, but the idea of *upgrading* a weapon instead of reforging it is interesting to me. Also the biggest argument against a reforge rework is that the devs need to work on Terraria 2, and that they can put it there. I’d love another final update, but it’s getting a bit ridiculous.
The goblin tinkerer always takes a nice bath in lava after moon lord in my playthroughs. Sorry Mechanic, but this guy made me reforge my Vortex Beater 20 times for Unreal and at least 5 of those he straight up broke it.
I just always install mods that make reforges more forgiving/not fucking stupid. I think the main problem is that the Terraria Community sees reforges as a fucking "Required optimal thing to do" when it really should be more of an accessibility mechanic, something you can spec into if you're struggling. This means that lots of mods are balanced around having perfect reforges, because terraria players dont understand how to balance things. Of course, the only reforge that really works as an accessibility mechanic, is warding or the defensive accessories since modifiers do so little on their own!
As per the violent problem: There is an easy solution for relogic. fractional use time *is* possible. hold an initial "swings ready" counter. every frame, it's advanced by the amount of swings per frame (so, for a use time of 10, that's +0.1 every frame). every time the counter advances beyond 1, fire the weapon one time, and decrease it by 1. notice that for whole number use times like 10 this changes nothing. every 10th frame it'll reach 1 and it'll fire. however, this also works for fractional use times, like 2.5 frames, that's +0.4 every frame and it works (it'll go 0.4, 0.8, 1.2 *fire* 0.2, 0.6 1 *fire*, 0, so the pattern is wait wait fire wait fire repeat, so if you do the math that's 2 attacks every 5 frames, which is 0.4 attacks per frame or 2.5 frames per attack). this is the system counter strike uses to have fine grained control over attack speed (or, csgo did, not sure about cs2). the only downside is the animation system would need a non trivial rework, but overall i think it's worth it for making attack speed not clunky.
Incredibly good video! I especially loved you going through how people view ideas for the game as outlandish and bringing up all the outlandish additions to the game over the years! Super cool
Honestly, for weapon modifiers the whole idea of reforges having niches is good, however as presented here I think it's not pushed far enough. I'd have the reforge system reworked to be up to 3 distinct parameters, reforge type (the niche), tuning (the actual values), and reforge quality (a reforge counter). The reforge type would be selectable, ranging from general purpose with no downsides but weaker buffs to specialized buffs and debuffs that could give some weapons more varied use cases. The tuning would be how wild you want the values to be with a predetermined cap so we don't end up with something like +800% damage and -800% speed. And the reforge quality would be how close your weapon is to that goal, each reforge would always increase it, and if we want to keep RNG you can make it have a chance to increase by more than 1. With such a drastic system summoners could also get their own weapon modifiers, increased/decreased summon/sentry cap, increased/decreased minion/minion's projectile speed, or even something more crazy like providing effects based on how many minion slots the weapon is using. They could really go wild with a full fledged rework.
I think the Riven system from Warframe is a great template to base reforges on. For those who aren't familiar, Riven mods grant 2 or 3 buffs to a variety of weapon stats, and sometimes include a negative stat. If the mod rolls a negative stat, the positives will be higher to compensate. You can reroll the stats on a Riven, but the cost increases with each roll, with a cap. When you reroll, you can choose between the old and new stats. What this system does is let you tailor a weapon's stats according to your build, though not without significant cost investment to balance out the power (Riven mods also cost a significant amount of mod capacity, but that's not applicable here). It takes a lot of luck or a lot of Kuva (read: plat) to get a god riven (something like +crit chance/+crit damage/+toxin/-accuracy), but you can settle for a "good enough" roll, and keep rolling when you can afford it without the fear of losing the one you already have. However, the problem with this system is that there simply aren't enough modifiable attributes for weapons in Terraria for a system like this to have enough depth. A few could be added to accommodate it (ammo consumption chance, movement speed while wielding, projectile size, crit damage), but I can't think of many that would fit without feeling like unecessary additions. Still, though, I think it's an example of a reforging system done right.
Dude, literally everybody hates the Riven system in Warframe; it's so bad, the Incarnon Genesis system was added to replace Riven's role as a buff for weaker weapons. The fact is that players will optimize the fun out of any system, so having a system in which the optimal weapon setup requires more grind and RNG only multiplies player misery. The best system is one that minimizes player grind and RNG, since those aspects are directly what contribute to dissatisfaction with the game-Warframe and Terraria alike. Something like, removing Legendary et al from the Tinkerer's reforge pool, but making it guaranteed with an extra investment (say, a material on the same tier as the weapon)
@@cadenr7165 I agree that the Riven system is disliked in the community. However, the problems with it do not extend to Terraria. Firstly, the combat in Terraria does not reach the ridiculous stat bloat of WF. Master and Legendary mode will test you, but you don't require insanely optimized builds to succeed, especially considering how many ways there are to cheese combat. As such, having a god reforge is strictly unnecessary. Additionally, guaranteeing god reforges with a token material investment would invalidate every other reforge in the game, if you could pick and choose the best one. Perhaps a small increase to the stats of successive rolls until a cap is reached (with a chance of getting reforges that exceed it) would serve as a happy medium. Also, a little RNG is good for Terraria. Having some happy accidents keeps playthroughs feeling fresh. The game is easily beatable with easily obtainable items, but having some rare items that the player can farm for gives them something to do between slamming out boss kills. Regardless, this is all moot, because Terraria's combat simply lacks the complexity for a robust reforge system.
@@jacksonholder2987 I agree with many of your points-especially that, at the end of the day, combat in Terraria is simply not complex enough to support an in-depth reforge system.
Honestly watching this has reinforced my own feelings of wanting to make something more impactful as a mod to fit my own prefrences. (and to satisfy my enjoyment of putting magic rocks in things to make them go brrrr) Tldr it was breaking up modifiers into slotable stones for each different type of effect. (crit, damage, etc) And using excess gems as a means for it, as a sorta "enchanter" thing. Balance comes with exploration and development of course. Tbh even something that could help reduce the randomness of reforging would be a welcome change. What Calamity does in locking the "tier" of a reforge is super nice for not accidentally rolling past your target after 5 minutes of clicking and ending up with something worse.
I like Arcane. Maybe it’s not like “meta”, but I really like having insane amounts of mana and being able to not go through potions like there’s no tomorrow, because I can just pause for a bit and watch the stars fill up. This is just me, but it makes me feel like it’s some sort of charge attack. It’s cool in my head and therefore I like it.
0:02 yes i do, crucify me, but it gives something productive other than biulding to do, do the boss you beat but din`t get the drop you wanted because you din`t have time, sell the drops and keep what u want, grind blood moon because your a masochist, fish, event grind, plenty of things that can be a byproduct of search for goblin rent money
Not saying I disagree with any of your points. But from what I understand the main point of the video is the whole system could be better. It’s just “grind and give all ur money to click a button and get a slight stat boost.” Which especially for terraria, a very rewarding game. Is a bit underwhelming
I always just do OOA for goblin money, buying and selling sentries back to the tavern keep without leaving his shop gets you a bunch of money that scales as your tier goes up
The best options to rework reforges are either this, or to allow players to customise the reforges (like allowing the players to give their weapon more damage percent, but lower speed by that much, and to remove drawback would make the weapon reforge substantially more expensive)
What if: - Legendary, Mythical, and Unreal are no longer reforgeable into, only as the original modifier, but all three get slightly buffed - Your idea to greatly enhance the effect of other modifiers happened - Additionally, each time you speak to the goblin about reforges, you get to choose one of three random ones instead of one of one what if whips had summon tag knockback/crit chance/damage modifiers? and also size, whip size is so funny
@@Lt_Koro people will always optimize the fun out of a game, if it's optimal to spend 2 hours recrafting a weapon for a buffed version of the best reforge then you bet people will do it
@@Piokoxer sure but that is their problem then. besides with the changes suggested in the video its reasonable to assume that other reforges could be even better while also being more fun.
If they were to not be reforgable into, they would need to be more then slightly buffed, crafting items over and over is more tedious then farming money for the bald goblin.
Yes, I've had similar feelings. Your suggestions are very reasonable and i could see them realistically implemented with relatively little dev time too. Great video.
I never had an issue with the reforge system, but when you started listing problems i found myself agreeing with all of them. I like your ideas and hope many of them are implemented. Normally I would have no hope for this to actually happen, but these are the terraria devs. You never know
What's more expensive? 6 yachts + a mansion + the entirety of every single tech company's stock ever + the moon Reforging the Terraspark Boots to warding
Well but legendary doesn't need to be better in every single way and instead buff many things but a bit less than a modifier that focuses on that stat say all the positive buffs cut in half so legendary won't be the only good thing and you can get the modifier that buffs the stat you want the most. This comment is really just pretending 99.95% of the video just doesn't exist
For whip modifiers, what if there was one for how many segments(aka hitboxes) each whip has. So you could have, for example, a Snapthorn that attacks slower with less knock back that can hit more enemies with each attack, and a spinal tap that is faster that specializes in single-target damage
Thanks for the reminder at the end. It opens my eyes and makes me think that not all fans are the most open-minded, when the developers themselves haven't stopped pushing boundaries (and of course, responded to feedback with patches and nerfs)
this is why I really liked the previous bugged whip reforges, where attack speed changed range. you either played safer, with lower attack speed but more range, or played for more attack speed but having to be closer to the enemy. it was great imo, I see the flaws with that specifically but it's the closest to dynamic reforges we've gotten.
Honestly ive never really thought about reforges n thought the whole system was just kinda grindy n annoying to gst what you wanted, but THIS? This is an INCREDIBLE idea and sounds fun as all hell, we really need to send this to red, i could very well see this or something like this in the next update, i feel like it could fit extremely well. Very well done!
yeah that sounds really fun!! in my last few playthroughs i was questioning if reforging is even worth the price in its current state, i've never noticed a difference in gameplay before and after reforging unless i had a reforge which lowered my attack speed or i was going for a melee speed build
Until recently, I actually didn't put much thought into the reforge system. Though I started a Thorium playthrough with a friend, noticed the new Bard reforges and came to the realization that "Hey, I just realized that we don't have Summoner modifiers". Ever since, I've been realizing how much the reforge system and modifiers good do with a tuning.
Honestly, as a person who doesn't play Terraria very often anymore as I find the gameplay kind of repetitive, a revamped reforge system would 100% bring back the passion I used to have for this game.
I remember when whips benefitted from bulky reforges and it was interesting to be able to use either a legendary or bulky whip. This is a key example of how this would work well in the game.
here's to hoping red sees this and it lets him think about cooking with reforges for 1.6. itd be cool if theres some unique effect modifers that give great buffs but also carry their own risks/downsides.
i love your ending bit, with how so much got changed despite how most terraria players are pretty purist. it just goes to show nothing should be off the table as long as it improves the game for the better
My take on reforges is that there's just too many and all of them are trash except a single reforge depending on weapon class. Thin the list out, and make the ones we can get impactful. Either that, or change how the tiers work, make it so you start with lower tier reforges then graduate to higher tier reforges in some way (maybe a new upgrade item, or maybe if you score enough kills with a weapon the tier goes up, or something I haven't thought of). Make each reforge impactful in its own way, and make it so you spend less time playing slots with the tinkerer and more time using your super cool build you've come up with. I like your idea of negative modifiers coming with strong positives, but I don't think we should just keep the problem of each weapon having The Objectively Best Reforge™ since that's exactly the sort of thing that stifles creativity. If you make Unreal 5x harder to get, all you're doing is aggravating players trying to get the best available weapon and spending 5x the cash on getting it. I don't think there's a problem with having a generalized upgrade, something that has no downsides and provides minor buffs to most/all of your weapon stats, but it should be contrasted against impactful specialized buffs instead.
I have an interesting idea, break up the augments. You can have Heavy, Furious, Massive, etc and then you have a modifier which multiplies the effects of them. Demonic could double both the buff and penalty, Legendary could give a 1.5 x buff, and such. It’d obviously need a change to how tinkering works but I’m thinking you could tie it into the happiness. The basic effect could be something you pick and the basic effects available to be picked from are increased the happier the goblin is. As well some could be unlocked after hard mode. The rating of the effect could be what’s randomized with a higher percentage chance for better things the happier the tinkerer is as well. Also having certain things in his room like a hell forge would open up the possibility of getting demonic, better tier anvils would give higher chances of getting legendary, etc. Would be really neat!
You are without a doubt my favorite terraria RUclipsr, all your videos are very engaging and informative. The defense video saved my master mode mage playthrough lmao
2:09 Not gonna lie my least favourite npc has to be the dye trader or hair stylist because I never use them. The goblin tinkerer sells rocket boots and tinkerers Workshop, and the angler can give useful items as well, some required for the cell phone.
Weapon reforges should work like this. You start with a menu option of which attribute you want to increase: damage, crit, size, speed, knockback, mana cost, velocity, etc. You get to pick which attribute to increase, at the cost of decreasing another. If you increase size, you decrease speed. That sort of thing. Make it a cumulative value, so if you reforge towards size you get an additional +5 size and -5 speed each time. Allow a higher value cap than +/-15, make it go to say 40-50%. This allows players to customize their weapons towards specific playstyles without creating a single modifier that is best in all scenarios like legendary/unreal/mythical.
There needs to be more than just looking up the weapon on the wiki and rolling until you get whichever best in slot reforge you want since it just turns into a mandatory money sink. Some of those improved modifiers shown would actually be cool to have around just to make you decide on what you want your playstyle to be like you shown.
I never thought there was anything inherently wrong with the reforge system... until now. I hope the devs see this and implement some of these suggestions.
I haven't played Terraria in a long time, but I do like a lot of the ideas you're proposing. I never thought too hard about reforges, but at the same time there weren't as many of the challenging bosses in the game that people would want to optimize their equipment for. Making Legendary rarer and the other positive modifiers more distinct in what they're affecting feels like it would spice up gameplay and give a reason to experiment with different modifiers.
ngl the way you've suggested changing the reforge system sounds very fun. I would personally just remove legendary, unreal, and mythical so the other reforges could shine, as I think a lot of people would just keep rolling for the 'all-around' reforge also I would 100% go for a MASSIVE sword build. I want to attack THE ENTIRE screen that sounds AWESOME
First of all, I feel that it is important to note that for tools, particularly picks, axes, and hammers, the "Light" modifier is optimal for harvesting/mining. Second, it's also worth noting that the attack speed modifiers DON'T effect the speed tools harvest/mine, only the speed at which damage ticks occur. Other than the inherent modifier, the only way to buff pick use speed is with buffs that are explicitly for "Mining Speed", and axes can't be buffed for speed beyond their inherent modifier. I'm uncertain how buffs influence hammers, but suspect it's a similar case as axes. Third, I think that since tools are functionally solved in terms of modifier, given that it is simply better to swap to a weapon if you need to defend yourself, a similar diversification for tool modifiers could be interesting. Range and speed would be pretty easy to add, but tool power would need to be added in such a way that it didn't allow a reforge to give a tool the power to break blocks that it shouldn't be able to. Axes could have something to adjust drop chances from shaking trees. Fourth, summoning is a bit of a thorny issue. A. Simple damage modification doesn't really change anything that isn't already being changed by the current system. Additionally, since just about every other stat that might currently be modified is either negligible or a non-issue for summoners, its hard to set up a meaningful trade off for their modifiers without some sort of new stats to be changed. B. Summons generally have fairly distinct behavior, which makes something like "Minion Move Speed" tricky. For example, "Minion Move Speed" would be exceedingly effective on something like the Terraprisma, which heavily relies on its movements to determine its damage output. Contrast that with an Imp Staff, where the damage comes from a projectile and abruptly the movement isn't nearly as important. Adding "Minion Projectile Speed" doesn't really help considering the various minions that don't use projectiles. C. Adding "Minion Critical Chance" would be problematic for another of reasons, not least of which is that the lack of Minion Crits is one of the things that currently defines the class, even if it would offer a route for introducing further complexity and differentiation among summons. D. Similarly, Knockback is something that is very dependent on the minion in terms of their behavior and utility, so changing it with a modifier for the minions could have problematic follow on effects. E. Since minion summon buffs aren't time dependent, mana costs are nearly a negligible issue for Summoners, so modifying mana costs doesn't significantly impact them. It's so negligible that the wiki doesn't even list mana costs. If there was some kind of mana-upkeep cost of "n" mana per minute per minion, that might have been one thing, but there isn't and it's unlikely to be added at this point. F. Adjusting minion capacity is something that would be either be balanced in the early game or the late game, or be nearly negligible in the same way the current "Arcane" modifier is. If you could double your minion count with a reforge, it would help provide early game viability, but end up truly broken in the end game, where you could have 22 Terraprisma turning the screen into a seizure inducing nightmare. If the bonus applied such that you ended up with maybe an additional 2-3 minions in the end game, early game would likely struggle to meaningfully benefit from such a small bonus. If you allowed it to round up to plus one minion, it would make the Pygmy Necklace nearly useless until you are doing late game min-maxing. If you didn't, it would be difficult to make any use of it until nearly the end of pre-hardmode. If you set it to a flat "Plus one Minion Slot" it would have a decent amount of utility, but drop off in utility as the game progressed, especially if you found other, more interesting bonuses to provide via modifier. G. An effect to the whip tag bonus would be a decent effect, but it really would need to be balanced against other effects to be a decent modifier and since I've already looked at all of the relevant effects that are present in other weapon/tool classes, there just aren't many good ways of approaching the issue without tailor making the modifiers available for each summon or overhauling how minions are classified and presented. Finally, I think one way to make the "Reforge" mechanic slightly less frustrating would be to differentiate a "Random" Reforge, a "Rework" Reforge, and an "Improve" Reforge. Random Reforge would draw from the entire possible table of available modifiers and would base its price solely on the current modifier. The "Rework" Reforge would have a higher price than "Random" and would be dependent upon the current reforge tier, but would only draw from modifiers of the same value tier. The "Improve" Reforge would have a much greater price than either of the other two, potentially requiring additional material input in addition to help incentivize players to work with the less than top tier modifiers. Additionally, it would help to reduce the frustration associated with accidentally missing your desired reforge because you got into a mechanical pattern of button pushing, resulting in wasting additional cash to find it again. TL:DR Put "Light" on your Picks/Axes/Hammers. "Attack Speed" doesn't effect "Mining Speed". Tools could use their own modifier set. Summoning weapon modifiers have very little helpful bonuses, but no easy fixes. The Goblin Tinkerer would be less unpleasant if you could reduce the randomness and/or pay with something that isn't just cash.
The only time I remember wanting a different reforge than the best was rapid on my chain gun to kill dungeon guardian. A optional, obscure boss that nobody would go for on an average playthrough.
![[SFM] Risky Recital](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/RzNkY1_Nk3o/mqdefault.jpg)
I disagree with the idea people wouldn't doom roll for legendaries if they where less common. Players will 100% keep hitting the Goblin Lotto until they get the biggest number, it would just mean they have to do so longer.
personally if the reforges beside the best ones werent completely useless, i would actually just roll with those if i got them. if i found myself struggling on a boss or had the extra money, then i would go for legendary modifiers. the point is that you're not completely being screwed over by not having legendary and would make weapon progression less linear.
plus with the system this video talks about, certain weapons would have reforges that are more suited for them and would be better than legendaries.
yeah, its true. optimizing fun away is something to consider. Though as sorbet said, it just has to be fun. I'd probably try but then just use what I get, as I usually do, as the "most optimal" stuff is less fun to me after playing the game like that for so long
though yeah the design sucks on just having purely-positive upgrades. I'm aware I'm just playing unusually
Idk i usually just go for one that's decent enough, i'd rather settle for murderous or superior than spend 5-6 platinum for a chance at legendary or unreal
@@Sir_Noel hear me out, only specific weapons can get the top tier reforges and they can only get it through crafting, ideally mark shimmered crafting mats to stop shimmer cycling crafts for top level enchants
Minion size, minion movement (speed, jump height) are two things that come to mind when thinking about Summoner Reforges
Minion size is an amusing idea
this actually reminded me of a weapon idea a had a few months ago, a duke fishron whip that created a sharknado in front of the player where if any minion touched it, they would get a movement and attack speed buff, to make the tempest staff a bit better.
Pyrocynical modifier
@@DrasticElevation that actually sounds really cool
Minion movement speed was where my mind went immediately, too. It would make some grounded minions much more reactive.
At the very least I wish the goblin tinkerer gave you a better chance for a better reforge if he was happier so that reforging doesn't feel completely random
He makes it cheaper for he's happyness
One thing they NEEDED to do, was make more reforges = better. If you reforge once, you might get anything. If you reforge 5 times, then you won't get any negative reforges. If you reforge 10 times, you get the top 5. And 15 times, you're guaranteed Legendary/Mythical/Godly/etc.
Personally I'd take getting rid of the re-roll system and just let the player pick what they want. Could even implement extra cost or even make them need additional crafting resources to access the better ones
@@Dhalin problem with that though is summon weapons, which work best with ruthless
Or just make it so all reforges have a low cost, the sheer rise per quality is simply not ok.
To respond to your question regarding mage players: I play mage almost exclusively, and I never use arcane once I have the option. I've always preferred full warding. If arcane was -4% mana cost, I would use arcane much more.
Yes exactly this. Idgaf how much mana I have if after the first 3 minutes of fighting results in my damage being cut in half due to mana potions. Of course most magic weapons cost very little actually so I don’t know if 4% would really do anything
hard AGREE but also maybe +20 +40 +60 +80 max mana as well and remove the mana cap
@@blademasterzero this is why, as a mage main, I always make sure to keep an off class weapon handy, so I can just abuse Mana Regen instead of the crippling from Mana Potions for as much of the game as possible.
@@BlazeEmerald There’s a reason the saying “I MIGHT BE OUT OF SPELLS, BUT I AIN’T OUT OF SHELLS” is common amongst mages
@@danolantern6030 This is the way. AND THIS... IS MY BOOMSTICK.
"Let's go gambling!"
"Aw dang it"
"Aw dang it"
"Aw dang it"
made me chuckle lmao
"legendary" skips
Aw dang it
@@Mooonwithanextrao Perfectly explained
Huh. Reforges have been the same for so long that I kind of took them for granted, but your suggestions are legitimately a really good idea. I genuinely hope someone on the dev team sees this and buffs the bad reforges at least a little in 1.4.5
Though, I don’t think they should make Legendary/Unreal rarer though to incentivize using other reforges, if it’ll still be objectively the best. I think that’ll just incentivize grinding even more and otherwise feel bad (unless there was something else new to make it clear that they are super rare and you shouldn’t feel bad if you don’t get them)
Just make the reforges buff different things ig
@@patroka Yeah, much better idea is to remove them or make them way weaker than they are right now
Alternatively take them out of the rotation and make it so you can get them through some other guaranteed fashion, maybe using the shimmer + some big grind based on its tier @@Hateful_Bug
my dyslexic ass read the title as "refugees"...
Getting a little political for a terraria youtuber huh
Goblin Tinkerer can be considered one
What did Sorbet Cafe mean by this?
new video idea
Based Sorbet Cafe
i think part of the problem is that the reforges were made when it was only classic difficulty where it doesnt really matter in the end which one you get
Plus they were ABHORRENTLY expensive and you just took what you got, you couldn't fish for the best one unless you spent an absurd amount of time money farming. Every accessory costed, like, 10+ gold, wings costed 40, lategame weapons were 20+, and you were working with classic money drop rates
@@sorbetcafeduring my classic rock playthrough I mainly farmed easy bosses for gold
@@sorbetcafe I know what I'm about to say is modded, but reforge prices seem to be based on the items stats, and I ended up reforging a weapon for 1 platinum and 68 gold EACH reforge. If I didn't have the ability to farm gold through deviantt gold slime spawns then I would absolutely never be able to play around that. Especially on a mode like eternity-death where farming is somewhat tedious
@@hellsgames5322 Reforge costs are actually based on a weapons given "Buy" value, which is also what determines how much it sells for. This means that later game stuff has a higher value given to it so that it sells for a good amount if you happen to want to sell it, but this also makes reforges cost more. I know this, because the Gungnir used to have the highest of this value when reforging was added, which made it cost about a platinum and a half to reforge it from base. In a later update, they did change the multiplier used for reforges to make them cheaper, and also reduced the Gungnir's coin value too, so they made reforges a lot more accessible for the player. Though, since the buffs from reforges are so small, I'm pretty sure you could easily beat the game on Master without any reforges at all, because a 15% bonus isn't even that crazy anyways, especially early game where you don't even do enough damage for that to make a difference outside of use speed (Which, as Sorbet pointed out, is a very finnicky metric in the first place)
@@hellsgames5322 Brother it takes 3 blocks a crystal shard and a hammer to get infinite money, look into it and your life will be a lot easier
For the summoner, movement speed / projectile speed would be helpful to help the summons hit more consistently
Community note: speed for minion-summoning items affects the item use speed itself, not the speed of the minions
@@Clubette but they could add a minion speed reforge to make it impact the summoned minion instead
Idea: reduce the amount of immunity frames that summons apply so hits become more frequent. Thoughts?
@@crashveretia8046This would be busted for some minions lol
@@crashveretia8046 i like it it's like a pseudo attack speed buff
one of my favourite early terraria memories was getting a "legendary zombie arm" drop really early on, me and my brother kept getting to the next pre hardmode sword only to find it wasn't as good as our legendary zombie arm,
having that "oh SHIT i got legendary" effect would be a whole lot better, but what would be even better was if there was a moment of "hell yeah, i got frenzying" or "woah i got a huge breaker blade lets goooo"
There's need for a "Sorbets reforge" mod
Bare minimum, I think ReLog needs to make it so that you can't get the same reforge twice in a row from the tinkerer. Whenever that happens I inexplicably gain the overwhelming urge to help expand wikipedia's list of warcrimes article.
In terms of the legendary/unreal/mythical reforges, I was thinking instead of making them rarer, they'd only be obtainable through some sort of external condition. Maybe it'd be something like only having them be possible at a high happiness level for the Tinkerer, or maybe something like Fire Emblem 4's system where getting enough kills on a specific weapon powers it up.
Having the highest-tier modifiers only unlock after using the weapon for a good while would encourage messing around with all the other reforges while you use the weapon normally, and give a sense of "balance" to the modifiers just being a global stat boost. It gives the option between continuing to use an old weapon with a strong stat boost, or getting a new weapon from the progress you've likely made in the time it took to unlock.
It's still susceptible to automatic farms or whatnot to grind the unlock open, but it's at least a more interesting barrier than just money + luck.
The only of these suggestions that would work, in my opinion, is the happiness one. NPCs already sell you pylons if they're happy enough, so doing this is pretty internally consistent. That would also help with confusion, which the other solution could only make worse.
@@Gefdragoon Yeah, as fun as I think the kill count method would be, it's a decently complex system for what's just supposed to lock off a few modifiers.
Then again, these are the same devs that put torch luck into the game without telling anyone, so I don't think it's *completely* out of the question :P
@@QJrocks yeah lol
@@QJrocks yeah if the fact that Terraria has had multiple "final" updates is any indication, it seems like the devs just like working on the game, so I don't think that would be out of the question
I say the goblin can go to hell, but he already lives there on my current playthrough
To be fair, putting the goblin in hell is the most efficient place to put him, given that he is happiest underground and having a pylon in hell allows you to teleport there instantly. I think the devs created this system just to incentivize putting the tinkerer in hell
@@seedlesswatermelon566
It's a getfixedboi playthrough
@@Superp2gamer then that doesn't count >:(
@@seedlesswatermelon566 I usually put him near the shimmer which also works well
@@silksongoutyet this is the objectively correct answer.
For Summoner, you could incease or decrease the summons aggressiveness. A higher aggressiveness would mean that it actively hunts down enemies in a higher range, similar to the stardust dragon staff, while a lower aggressiveness makes it more defensive, since it doesn‘t get distracted so easily
That is just called overall speed
@@sock1 Did you read the comment it's completely different. Get a modifier with higher aggressiveness if you want to say deal with enemies from farther away that say also decreases damage and knockback and if you want something for enemies that are going to be closer to you that deals higher damage and knockback
appreciate the effort to come up with something unique but this ain't it chief. it's too complicated of a mechanic for something like a reforge modifier. it feels a bit too bloated and would probably be an effect that requires the wiki to explain it (damage, crit, melee speed, movement speed, mana are self explanatory but what exactly is minion aggressiveness?)
furthermore I don't think this is really something a summoner would want to have over defense or damage. it doesn't feel impactful at all and it's also probably not increasable in 1% increments, would most likely have to be a different system which would also suck again since it's too different from the other modifiers then.
@@happysquirtle466 brother who plays terraria without the wiki genuienly
@@happysquirtle466itd be called aggro and everyone knows about thatand it be on weapons
That Frenzying change actually gives me an idea for a new ranger reforge stat; accuracy
Imagine increased spread on frenzying to offset the fact that it had fairly high dps - to be reliable you’d have to generally be closer than a ranger would like to be.
Kid named chlorophyte bullets
@@paperboy1790 True....ngl not a fan of chloro they make gun progression less cool to me personally lmao
chloro bullets need to have its tracking range reduced@@jakett2216
@@jakett2216 agreed, they’re super lame. I’d definitely have them be less strong (probably just a decent damage nerf)
@@crep50 personally I think they should either weaken the homing greatly, have a new effect, or just flat out remove them from the game, but like chloro has existed for so long and been an integral part of ranger that it might need a few patches worth of updates to buff stuff like chain gun/tac/etc that were carried by chloro. No matter how little damage chloro does (it has a base dmg of 9 compared to the musket ball's 7 and the ichor bullet's 13), it'll still be very consistent due to its strong homing
Wanna know something that makes melee speed *even clunkier* than it already is??? In short, the swing animation is broken and skips the first frame _every single time_ , which isn't noticeable at low speeds, but *completely* changes the game at high speeds.
For example: let's say we have 2 players, one on vanilla (bug unfixed) and the other in tmodloader (bug fixed), and they're both going for 134% melee speed with a legendary terra blade. In vanilla, that tblade is gonna have 6 use time, or in other words it's gonna swing 10 times a second, while in tml it would have 7, which is 8.5 swings per sec. That's a free 17% increase to your damage, which is *insane* , and is the reason why the terra blade was so powerful initially, and this also affects literally everything else, making melee speed a bit stronger than intended.
I agree with most of this video and reforges definitely need a rework.
But I believe your idea of making the legendary/mythical/unreal reforges super rare would only worsen things since a lot of people naturally gravitate towards more effective options even if they are particularly tedious and/or don't make sense to farm for. It will just make them fish for these modifiers for longer periods of time. You could say it's their problem and you would be correct, but I would suggest, if you want to make reforges into this trade-off system, is to just remove modifiers that give pure upsides or actually nerf them. Like, if you want just the bonus without drawbacks, you only get +5%-10% to a stat.
I agree. Having rare reforges that are still objectively better gets us back to square one (being that most modifiers are irrelevant).
I would like to see modifiers be almost like deep rock galactic’s overclocks (minus the extreme overclocks changing functions completely). If you want pure upsides, you have to go with a safe modifier that with smaller boosts. If you want extreme boosts (like legendary) it’s balanced by big downsides (so it’s different, rather than objectively better).
No, that would not
Y'all just love gambling I think, I've never tried going out of my way to get the best of the best
If they want to go to extreme lengths, like he said, the buffs legendary would give would weigh that time
@@jonathansten3949 nobody here loves gambling lmao, we just have too many coins.
id have legendray/mythical/unreal be the best all rounders but worse than specific reforges for specific attributes
@@jonathansten3949 It's not about gambling at all. Gambling includes risks, with the system we have, there are no risks involved, only time you have to spend farming money. It's not paticularly fun, nor interesting.
Good for you that you don't have the problem of overly min-maxing everything. But some people do. I am like that with fishing for rng upgrades unless I actively stop myself from it. And I have more fun with the game when I don't spend hours farming money to reforge a weapon from demonic to legendary.
So I propose to either remove legendary tier reforges entirely or make them in line with the fixes mentioned in the video (that is, if they are to have no downsides, they should give weaker buffs when compared to reforges with downsides).
This is why its completely acceptable to give yourself 3 billion gajilion platinum because of the cost
Ima still be broke even if I have infinite money because of the goblin tinkerer
Crystal glitch my beloved
@@RinkawaiiiTerrasavr my beloved
i love you crystal glitch
@@pinesappcan explain crystal glitch? You just put crystal across from Crystal in 1x1 hole?
the only wrong thing about reforging is that i have to forfeith all my life's possession to the bald-headed goblin tinkerer
Again, a goblin... Taking your money...
They didn't have to do it.
They didn't have to leave it in!
@@JessicaMorgani? Isn't that what goblins in most games do
@@deadboyo2773that is the joke, they always take all your money
If you prefer you can shimmer him and then he won't be bald anymore
Just like irl
the comically large breaker blade at 5:06 reminded me of the 40m long blade from soul knight which essentially is thrice as large as other melee weapons but has an attack cooldown of like 1,5s and below average damage
Yeah, that is one funny weapon 🤣
Not really that good but sure is funny
hilarious, lets you sweep through walls and delete projectiles from existence. Obviously not the greatest weapon, but undeniably pretty neat.
18:34 let him cook
hmmm
pizza time
Hehe
Femboy 😀
the first femboy that doesnt act like hes gonna assault me in my sleep if he gets the chance
This is probably my favourite criticism of Terraria - changing the reforge system to something where there isn't a BEST modifier and more variation would be so good.
somebody's gotta signal boost this video because these ideas are too good and NEED to be in the game
Oh my god, most of the issues with the modifier system is EXACTLY what I've been saying about Minecraft's enchanting system. Most mutually exclusive enchantments (sharpness/smite/bane of arthropods or protection/fire prot/projectile prot/blast prot) are EXTREMELY overshadowed by one option, and the fact there's no limit on enchantments means there's no reason to experiment or diversify, as the 'god set' overshadows anything else, and a significant portion of the game is solely dedicated to grinding out the same enchantments as everyone else
I love the idea of making the trade-off buffs more worthwhile, the reforge system has been something I've always either half-heartedly clicked through until I run out of money, or ignored altogether and just taken whatever the first all-positive buff I got was. With more unique strategies, it'd make reforging far more interesting, and the only real remaining flaw is the Tinkerer himself, who I think should just... sell reforges from a special menu, maybe keeping the random mechanic at a lower cost than buying the reforge.
As for summoner reforges, there's plenty I can think of that, yes, would introduce new mechanics, but they would be much needed mechanics that I think Summoner should have anyways, and giving them small downsides from Reforges could balance it out:
1. Focused: Causes minions to be more "accurate" and stick closer to the target, or player, if no enemies are nearby, making them less likely to just fly around in circles for five hours before deciding to maaaaybe run into the target. This would come at a small downside of 15% less attack speed, lowering how often Minions can attack, about evening out the damage they deal while keeping that damage more consistent.
2. Uncontrollable: Minions are now 20% faster and deal 20% more damage, however they cannot gain whip damage buffs (this doesn't effect other summoned minions, of course). This would be ideal for minions that don't synergize well with whips or their effects, just using them for targeting.
3. Parasitic: Minions do 15% more damage to enemies with debuffs, however they deal 20% less damage to non-debuffed enemies. This would be amazing on minions like the Hornet staff, Imps, and would give good synergy with debuff-inflicting whips (might need to exclude the Dark Harvest's debuff if it proves to be too strong).
4. Luminescent: Minions will glow in the dark, lighting up the area around them. Enemies that are hit by these minions will also give off light temporarily, if they didn't already. (This is more of a fun, niche idea that might be better off just being a cool attribute of an individual summon weapon, but I still liked it enough to share here.)
5. Cared-for: Minions are 20% bigger, and deal 15% more damage, however they move 20% slower. Fat minions, amazing for hordes or stationary bosses, especially on already fast minions.
6. Wild: Minions can now crit enemies, for a base 8% chance, however their base damage is reduced by -20%. (Magic weapon modifiers still wouldn't allow minions to crit)
7. Precise: Another variant of Wild, with only a 5% crit chance, but with a more manageable downside of -10% size and -10% speed.
This is pretty cool. Considered making your reworks into a mod? Or did I miss the part where you did just that?
4:30
@@Pruv Was it made public? Just mentioned that it was made but sometimes content creators have private mods made for videos.
@electricfall I don't think I'd want to mess with the .exe file. If it's made into a mod I'd definitely give it a try though.
@@Throarbin It probably can, TModLoader lets you hook into and change a whole bunch of vanilla behaviors.
Some mods can alter how the reforging system rolls the reforges (mainly Calamity), so I don't really doubt that they could change the reforges themselves
Honestly I agree with everything here. Red needs to see this
Other than making "the best reforge" rarer. It dodges the question instead of fixing it
Also Mana regen is HUGE in mage since Mana potion do really decrease damage
Also it's a shame heavy melee weapons don't give any armor penetration. It would make a lot of sense to do that. Or make frenzy reforge deal even less damage against defense. It would make that reforge very good against some enemies and bosses and terrible against the rest, but it would make it interesting imo.
Also I believe Legendary/Unreal/Mythical shouldn't give any meaningful stat changes but should instead give each and every weapon some unique ability. That would also probably spice up the meta a lot depending on what those effects and abilities would be.
And summoner can have reforges that would allow for more minion slots, change i-frames, give some the ability to fly or take it away for something in return, as well as whips can have mp-only reforges that would somehow buff other players.
I think getting to pick the stats would be great for reforging. The random roll is kinda the worst and most expensive part of it. Especially if you miss what you wanted to get cause of a twitchy finger.
Items could roll with a random set of stats, and with enough time and money you could pay the goblin to re allocate or add stat points.
The cost could still scale with the weapon and its overall quality, and you could, sacrifice some portion of the weapons stats to increase another stat.
They could even let us go beyond legendary, make that like 80% stat point allocation or something, but make it wacky expensive to go beyond that.
just in general i feel as though the reforge system should be changed to be focused around more experimental and non-general effects. this is a great take on it and i think if they maybe tried adding some more stats to tweak with this then it would be great.
HOWEVER, i think that keeping the reforges for legendary/unreal/mythical doesn't do enough to make these reforges viable. no matter how rare it is it's still going to be sought after. people will still farm coins so they can get a maxed out weapon.
if the reforges are all situational effects that trade out certain aspects for others though, then that opens the door for a lot of creative combos that could be really fun. sighted could be a damage/accuracy/crit increase at the cost of speed to make some slower guns like muskets and snipers way crazier, you could use a tiny weapon that's incredibly fast to swing with lower damage on a melee weapon with some sort of projectile, hell you could go even further and give them truly unique effects like giving some weapons multiple projectiles at the cost of their stats. the system could be diversified in a way that makes everything sound good and gives the player the option to use basically anything they want without it being straight up horrible
as for summoners i feel like the best option is making summons use up more or less summon slots. would be really fun to have a summon weapon that makes your minions smaller and deal less damage but you can have a ton of them out at once.
My suggestion for a summoner reforge:
Tribal
-30% damage
Minions summoned by this staff cost 0.5
(so with 3 minion slots, you could summon 6, making more use of tag damage as you have more summons)
They could pass this on to the "legendary" of summoner, giving slightly cheaper minions such as 0.75 per minion
Insane with blade staff, straight up game-breaking with tag damage.
@@Syuvinya That's ok. We'll get to have fun until they balance it out like Sorbet says.
@@kevinmora8693 true
@@Syuvinya blade staff does a god awfull 8 damage
"Oh but it ignores armou-" shut up. That doenst affect anything when a enemy has god damm 40 defense
@@shoeskode136 An Ichor Flask already makes you break that 40 Defense with Blade Staff's 25 Armor Penetration. It's not that insane
I have a few (mostly stupid) ideas.
-Melee weapons with projectiles should be standardized to have their projectile's cooldown scale with attack speed in some way.
-Personally I don't like making Legendary still objectively the best while making it rarer, I feel that would just make people grind more to still always only use it. Instead having other reforges be more situationally useful depending on the weapon and build you're running, while the Legendary equivalents are the generalist all-rounder modifiers, the baseline for the others to be compared to (since as the game currently is, legendary stats are what most people use anyway)
-Ranger doesn't currently have an accessory modifier for itself. Melee has Violent, Mage has Arcane (which sucks but we do have it technically), and Summoner has.. both Violent and Arcane I guess. Don't know what Ranger would get besides ammo preservation or velocity though, and neither sound too useful (though a full velocity build sounds hilarious. Unfortunately this would further bloat the accessory reforges, but hey, mods do that anyway every time they add new classes.
-Minion weapons could get some sort of modifier to how they interact with invincibility frames? Sounds like it would get broken fast but that's the best I got. Projectile minions could get firing speed bonus, but that would require a distinction between projectile and contact minions to be made with available reforges.
-With the Shimmer available, there's no actual reason to reforge at the goblin anymore for any craftable item. It's really, really not hard to get infinite free reforges. Instead, what if the Goblin allowed you to pay a lot of money to get a specific reforge on an item instead of leaving it up to luck, at the cost of heavily increasing the price of a reforge? Gives a reason for the reforges to be so expensive, removes rng, makes visiting the Goblin actually feel good so people would probably like him a whole lot more, and makes grinding feel more worth it as you climb to a set price goal you actually know you'll hit once you get that money instead of sitting in your farm getting 50 platinum and going "okay, this time i will definitely get legendary in a reasonable amount of time"
-Melee reforge that only works on true melee weapons, where they get much higher attack speed, some increased damage, and a size way down. Turn any weapon into the funny crimson claws. It'd be so unbalanced but I would love it.
4:49
"That thing was too big to be called a sword.Too big, too thick, too heavy, and too rough, it was more like a large hunk of iron."
Imagine if the goblin had specific reforges that modified how a weapon works. Turning the Uzi into a five shot burst weapon. Give a Repeater a spread shot at the cost of speed. Change a sword to a thrusting sword, but give it defense piercing (which would actually be really good with some of the bigger swords out there, since they have the range to make the thrusting sword thing work).
Genuinely great proposals here, reforges are just simply something I didn’t think about, I guess we’ve just become complacent with them, I would be super interested in seeing what Relogic would do with them if they decided to change the system, I often get scared of big changes like this in games, but somehow Relogic almost always delivers whenever they tackle something like this, hopefully someone can get this on their radar so they could at least consider it, because this video made me excited thinking about how good this system could be.
This is kinda like the nature system from pokemon. Depending on what nature a pokemon has, they can either deal more damage but are slower, or deal more sp damage but is more vulnerable. I honestly think that would be a great implementation to modifiers.
pokemon natures are similar in that they have the same issues of most being the objectively best ones depending on the pokemon. a special attacker will only ever use timid (+speed, -attack) or modest (+special attack, - attack), and a physical attacker would only use jolly (+speed, - special attack )or adamant (+attack, -special attack) because in both cases they don't lose anything by lowering the other attack stat. some tank pokemon might run other abilities like calm or impish, but for the most part there is one or two objectively best natures for each pokemon. at least the recent pokemon games let you change natures and ivs in the post game
I don't think Goblin Tinkerer or the Angler are my least favorite NPCs. That is 100% reserved for Stylist.
1)Hard to even get her to spawn.
2)Even if she does spawn she almost always needs you to have Lifeform Analyzer to even be aware she did, since the Spider caves are pitch black.
3)Dies almost immediately to Spiders on Legendary because the latter hit like a truck.
4)Because of the previous point, it is highly desirable to have a Hunter potion, lest she die if you aggro Spiders from a wrong angle.
5)Has NO functional utility, unlike the Goblin or the Angler.
Something, that would be fun to have is a similar system, as what Deep Rock Galactic has with their weapon overclocks. Some are stable, that just gives minor buffs to weapon stats, some are balanced, that gives some buffs or extra mechanics for some stat penalties, and some are unstable, that gives big penalties, but also massive other buffs or straight up change how the weapon works. (There are exceptions of course to each groups)
Reforges for weapons could do something similar where big penalties could add a different big buff, or change how the weapon works entirely.
I just wanted to say that I really enjoy and appreciate your cute little scug drawings explaining things on the side in all the videos you included them in. They warm my soul :3
0:55 IS THAT SPEARMASTER
I love this. I never really gave thought to the current system but changing reforges up would add a whole new layer of replay ability that I think shouldn’t go unnoticed
hot take: modifiers should work like natures work in pokemon
increase one stat and decrease the other. maybe 2 stats
like have one for melee being melee speed and damage, but decreases size, or something
then with ranged you could decrease accuracy to increase damage, or the other way around. would REALLY benefit going for a specific build instead of every single build in the world going for the same one reforge
Here's what I'd personally do with weapon modifiers:
1. Remove the best tier. "Legendary", "Mythical", etc, shouldn't exist. They just stagnate meta and boil the process down into spamming the button, even if they were exceedingly rare.
2. Remove the worst tiers from being re-rollable. Ideally, you could make a weapon and it could start with the re-roll with a decently high change, making you want to re-roll to begin with, but you can't re-roll into a bad one, removing a lot of junk from the system but keeping a reason to want to do it even if you don't want to engage with the system.
3. Make all positive re-rolls be distinct, specific and geared towards different playstyles. Ideally, armour set bonuses could be tweaked a little so that you have a reason to go for crit over damage or size over knockback, etc.
4. Change the re-roll menu. It just sucks and zooming past legendary by mistake is frustrating and annoying, and it's either a first-try re-roll and super cheap, or it's super expensive and only gets more expensive the more times you accidentally skip past what you want - Which then means you have to take it slowly, which just grinds gameplay to a halt.
5. I'm not 100% sure about this one, but - Change the resource you use to re-roll. Maybe some "essence" you gain from events? Then when you re-roll, you can gear it towards getting a certain type of re-roll (so, higher % chance to get massive and lower % chance for the rest) so it's not true RNG? I'm not sure on this one but the pure RNG nature of the system is a bit boring and one-dimensional.
Nice idea to make a more robust reforge system.
However, I think people would still try to get the Legendary upgrades, and makes the game even more grindy.
What I think is best, is a system that ballance the attributes.
Something like mathematically working out how impactful each stat is and give them a weight (something like 1% damage is 5 weight, crit rate is 10 weight, size is 6, speed is 5 .I just threw random number, but the idea should be clear).
Then, each reforge would place a priority in each stat, and an additional bonus, depending on what *rank* the reforge is.
Frenzy, for example, would reduce 25 weight in damage, but gives back 25 weight in speed, plus an extra amount for it being a good reforge.
Legendary is the highest rank reforge, would give the most bonus, but no spread them out evenly between each attributes. Godly or mythical would also give a ballance spread, but with slightly different emphasis on certain stats (godly would be slightly bigger and slower, and mythical would be slightly smaller but fast or something)
I agree completely. The biggest issue for me is that there is "One best modifier." That is the #1 thing that I want changed. There is no reason to explore or use the system when there just Is a best one.
I think the best way to deal with legendary/mythical/unreal is just to remove them. Make a new modifier, “adept” or “well-rounded,” that gives a similar all-around buff, but one that’s smaller. That way you can have an all around boost, or specialize.
It might be worth considering reworking legend/mythic/unreal into a different system that improves your weapon in a way that doesn’t drain your entire piggy bank. Idk how to it, but the idea of *upgrading* a weapon instead of reforging it is interesting to me.
Also the biggest argument against a reforge rework is that the devs need to work on Terraria 2, and that they can put it there. I’d love another final update, but it’s getting a bit ridiculous.
The goblin tinkerer always takes a nice bath in lava after moon lord in my playthroughs. Sorry Mechanic, but this guy made me reforge my Vortex Beater 20 times for Unreal and at least 5 of those he straight up broke it.
I just always install mods that make reforges more forgiving/not fucking stupid.
I think the main problem is that the Terraria Community sees reforges as a fucking "Required optimal thing to do" when it really should be more of an accessibility mechanic, something you can spec into if you're struggling. This means that lots of mods are balanced around having perfect reforges, because terraria players dont understand how to balance things. Of course, the only reforge that really works as an accessibility mechanic, is warding or the defensive accessories since modifiers do so little on their own!
Came down here to ask, any recommendations for mods that make reforges not suck ass?
As per the violent problem: There is an easy solution for relogic. fractional use time *is* possible. hold an initial "swings ready" counter. every frame, it's advanced by the amount of swings per frame (so, for a use time of 10, that's +0.1 every frame). every time the counter advances beyond 1, fire the weapon one time, and decrease it by 1. notice that for whole number use times like 10 this changes nothing. every 10th frame it'll reach 1 and it'll fire.
however, this also works for fractional use times, like 2.5 frames, that's +0.4 every frame and it works (it'll go 0.4, 0.8, 1.2 *fire* 0.2, 0.6 1 *fire*, 0, so the pattern is wait wait fire wait fire repeat, so if you do the math that's 2 attacks every 5 frames, which is 0.4 attacks per frame or 2.5 frames per attack). this is the system counter strike uses to have fine grained control over attack speed (or, csgo did, not sure about cs2).
the only downside is the animation system would need a non trivial rework, but overall i think it's worth it for making attack speed not clunky.
At this point, I just use shimmer to reforge stuff.
Incredibly good video! I especially loved you going through how people view ideas for the game as outlandish and bringing up all the outlandish additions to the game over the years! Super cool
14:52 the mouse is in the ice sickle
One of the best videos i’ve seen in a while - a new perspective on an old mechanic
Ok but now imagine if armors also had reforges 😬
That's a really good idea! Especially for things like movement speed or arcade
maybe melee speed too?
Exxo avalon mod does this iirc and its pretty cool if a bit limited. Too few of them imo
Split mod
there's a mod that gives armor the possibility to be reforged. The sets have the same reforges as equipment
Honestly, for weapon modifiers the whole idea of reforges having niches is good, however as presented here I think it's not pushed far enough. I'd have the reforge system reworked to be up to 3 distinct parameters, reforge type (the niche), tuning (the actual values), and reforge quality (a reforge counter).
The reforge type would be selectable, ranging from general purpose with no downsides but weaker buffs to specialized buffs and debuffs that could give some weapons more varied use cases. The tuning would be how wild you want the values to be with a predetermined cap so we don't end up with something like +800% damage and -800% speed. And the reforge quality would be how close your weapon is to that goal, each reforge would always increase it, and if we want to keep RNG you can make it have a chance to increase by more than 1.
With such a drastic system summoners could also get their own weapon modifiers, increased/decreased summon/sentry cap, increased/decreased minion/minion's projectile speed, or even something more crazy like providing effects based on how many minion slots the weapon is using. They could really go wild with a full fledged rework.
I think the Riven system from Warframe is a great template to base reforges on. For those who aren't familiar, Riven mods grant 2 or 3 buffs to a variety of weapon stats, and sometimes include a negative stat. If the mod rolls a negative stat, the positives will be higher to compensate. You can reroll the stats on a Riven, but the cost increases with each roll, with a cap. When you reroll, you can choose between the old and new stats.
What this system does is let you tailor a weapon's stats according to your build, though not without significant cost investment to balance out the power (Riven mods also cost a significant amount of mod capacity, but that's not applicable here). It takes a lot of luck or a lot of Kuva (read: plat) to get a god riven (something like +crit chance/+crit damage/+toxin/-accuracy), but you can settle for a "good enough" roll, and keep rolling when you can afford it without the fear of losing the one you already have.
However, the problem with this system is that there simply aren't enough modifiable attributes for weapons in Terraria for a system like this to have enough depth. A few could be added to accommodate it (ammo consumption chance, movement speed while wielding, projectile size, crit damage), but I can't think of many that would fit without feeling like unecessary additions. Still, though, I think it's an example of a reforging system done right.
Dude, literally everybody hates the Riven system in Warframe; it's so bad, the Incarnon Genesis system was added to replace Riven's role as a buff for weaker weapons.
The fact is that players will optimize the fun out of any system, so having a system in which the optimal weapon setup requires more grind and RNG only multiplies player misery.
The best system is one that minimizes player grind and RNG, since those aspects are directly what contribute to dissatisfaction with the game-Warframe and Terraria alike. Something like, removing Legendary et al from the Tinkerer's reforge pool, but making it guaranteed with an extra investment (say, a material on the same tier as the weapon)
@@cadenr7165 I agree that the Riven system is disliked in the community. However, the problems with it do not extend to Terraria. Firstly, the combat in Terraria does not reach the ridiculous stat bloat of WF. Master and Legendary mode will test you, but you don't require insanely optimized builds to succeed, especially considering how many ways there are to cheese combat. As such, having a god reforge is strictly unnecessary. Additionally, guaranteeing god reforges with a token material investment would invalidate every other reforge in the game, if you could pick and choose the best one. Perhaps a small increase to the stats of successive rolls until a cap is reached (with a chance of getting reforges that exceed it) would serve as a happy medium. Also, a little RNG is good for Terraria. Having some happy accidents keeps playthroughs feeling fresh. The game is easily beatable with easily obtainable items, but having some rare items that the player can farm for gives them something to do between slamming out boss kills. Regardless, this is all moot, because Terraria's combat simply lacks the complexity for a robust reforge system.
@@jacksonholder2987 I agree with many of your points-especially that, at the end of the day, combat in Terraria is simply not complex enough to support an in-depth reforge system.
Rivens make me want to die, never manage to get one for my Miter or my beloved Javlok.
Honestly watching this has reinforced my own feelings of wanting to make something more impactful as a mod to fit my own prefrences. (and to satisfy my enjoyment of putting magic rocks in things to make them go brrrr)
Tldr it was breaking up modifiers into slotable stones for each different type of effect. (crit, damage, etc) And using excess gems as a means for it, as a sorta "enchanter" thing. Balance comes with exploration and development of course.
Tbh even something that could help reduce the randomness of reforging would be a welcome change. What Calamity does in locking the "tier" of a reforge is super nice for not accidentally rolling past your target after 5 minutes of clicking and ending up with something worse.
I like Arcane. Maybe it’s not like “meta”, but I really like having insane amounts of mana and being able to not go through potions like there’s no tomorrow, because I can just pause for a bit and watch the stars fill up. This is just me, but it makes me feel like it’s some sort of charge attack. It’s cool in my head and therefore I like it.
Finally someone said it. Arcane is fun.
Excellent idea. I'd love to see the new meta evolve out of powerful, diverse, actually enjoyable modifiers!
0:02 yes i do, crucify me, but it gives something productive other than biulding to do, do the boss you beat but din`t get the drop you wanted because you din`t have time, sell the drops and keep what u want, grind blood moon because your a masochist, fish, event grind, plenty of things that can be a byproduct of search for goblin rent money
Not saying I disagree with any of your points. But from what I understand the main point of the video is the whole system could be better. It’s just “grind and give all ur money to click a button and get a slight stat boost.” Which especially for terraria, a very rewarding game. Is a bit underwhelming
I always just do OOA for goblin money, buying and selling sentries back to the tavern keep without leaving his shop gets you a bunch of money that scales as your tier goes up
The best options to rework reforges are either this, or to allow players to customise the reforges (like allowing the players to give their weapon more damage percent, but lower speed by that much, and to remove drawback would make the weapon reforge substantially more expensive)
What if:
- Legendary, Mythical, and Unreal are no longer reforgeable into, only as the original modifier, but all three get slightly buffed
- Your idea to greatly enhance the effect of other modifiers happened
- Additionally, each time you speak to the goblin about reforges, you get to choose one of three random ones instead of one of one
what if whips had summon tag knockback/crit chance/damage modifiers? and also size, whip size is so funny
but shimmer exists
@@idkwhatIshouldsayhere make them rarer. if you think recrafting a single item for potentially hours is fun then go ahead.
@@Lt_Koro people will always optimize the fun out of a game, if it's optimal to spend 2 hours recrafting a weapon for a buffed version of the best reforge then you bet people will do it
@@Piokoxer sure but that is their problem then. besides with the changes suggested in the video its reasonable to assume that other reforges could be even better while also being more fun.
If they were to not be reforgable into, they would need to be more then slightly buffed, crafting items over and over is more tedious then farming money for the bald goblin.
Yes, I've had similar feelings. Your suggestions are very reasonable and i could see them realistically implemented with relatively little dev time too. Great video.
12:19 mana wegenewation wate
I never had an issue with the reforge system, but when you started listing problems i found myself agreeing with all of them. I like your ideas and hope many of them are implemented. Normally I would have no hope for this to actually happen, but these are the terraria devs. You never know
The only question is why relogic still haven't hired you to work in a balance team
What's more expensive?
6 yachts + a mansion + the entirety of every single tech company's stock ever + the moon
Reforging the Terraspark Boots to warding
Complaint: I spend to much money rerolling for legendary.
Solution: Make legendary 5 times rarer.
👍
Well but legendary doesn't need to be better in every single way and instead buff many things but a bit less than a modifier that focuses on that stat say all the positive buffs cut in half so legendary won't be the only good thing and you can get the modifier that buffs the stat you want the most.
This comment is really just pretending 99.95% of the video just doesn't exist
This is a great suggestion with great presentation, I'd love to see this in the game!
For whip modifiers, what if there was one for how many segments(aka hitboxes) each whip has. So you could have, for example, a Snapthorn that attacks slower with less knock back that can hit more enemies with each attack, and a spinal tap that is faster that specializes in single-target damage
Thanks for the reminder at the end. It opens my eyes and makes me think that not all fans are the most open-minded, when the developers themselves haven't stopped pushing boundaries (and of course, responded to feedback with patches and nerfs)
this is why I really liked the previous bugged whip reforges, where attack speed changed range. you either played safer, with lower attack speed but more range, or played for more attack speed but having to be closer to the enemy. it was great imo, I see the flaws with that specifically but it's the closest to dynamic reforges we've gotten.
Honestly ive never really thought about reforges n thought the whole system was just kinda grindy n annoying to gst what you wanted, but THIS? This is an INCREDIBLE idea and sounds fun as all hell, we really need to send this to red, i could very well see this or something like this in the next update, i feel like it could fit extremely well. Very well done!
Those are some pretty juicy ideas, I'd personally love messing around with modifiers like that!
yeah that sounds really fun!! in my last few playthroughs i was questioning if reforging is even worth the price in its current state, i've never noticed a difference in gameplay before and after reforging unless i had a reforge which lowered my attack speed or i was going for a melee speed build
Until recently, I actually didn't put much thought into the reforge system. Though I started a Thorium playthrough with a friend, noticed the new Bard reforges and came to the realization that "Hey, I just realized that we don't have Summoner modifiers". Ever since, I've been realizing how much the reforge system and modifiers good do with a tuning.
Honestly, as a person who doesn't play Terraria very often anymore as I find the gameplay kind of repetitive, a revamped reforge system would 100% bring back the passion I used to have for this game.
I remember when whips benefitted from bulky reforges and it was interesting to be able to use either a legendary or bulky whip. This is a key example of how this would work well in the game.
here's to hoping red sees this and it lets him think about cooking with reforges for 1.6.
itd be cool if theres some unique effect modifers that give great buffs but also carry their own risks/downsides.
I think the legendary buffs should be a general buff, Jack of all trades kind of thing, with specific reforges being build specific
we NEED one of the devs to see this video
i love your ending bit, with how so much got changed despite how most terraria players are pretty purist. it just goes to show nothing should be off the table as long as it improves the game for the better
My take on reforges is that there's just too many and all of them are trash except a single reforge depending on weapon class. Thin the list out, and make the ones we can get impactful. Either that, or change how the tiers work, make it so you start with lower tier reforges then graduate to higher tier reforges in some way (maybe a new upgrade item, or maybe if you score enough kills with a weapon the tier goes up, or something I haven't thought of). Make each reforge impactful in its own way, and make it so you spend less time playing slots with the tinkerer and more time using your super cool build you've come up with.
I like your idea of negative modifiers coming with strong positives, but I don't think we should just keep the problem of each weapon having The Objectively Best Reforge™ since that's exactly the sort of thing that stifles creativity. If you make Unreal 5x harder to get, all you're doing is aggravating players trying to get the best available weapon and spending 5x the cash on getting it. I don't think there's a problem with having a generalized upgrade, something that has no downsides and provides minor buffs to most/all of your weapon stats, but it should be contrasted against impactful specialized buffs instead.
not even a minute in and there's a rainworld reference, this guys great!
This sound hella fun! Really hope some of it is implemented
How have i never thought of this its such a great and simple idea
I have an interesting idea, break up the augments. You can have Heavy, Furious, Massive, etc and then you have a modifier which multiplies the effects of them. Demonic could double both the buff and penalty, Legendary could give a 1.5 x buff, and such. It’d obviously need a change to how tinkering works but I’m thinking you could tie it into the happiness. The basic effect could be something you pick and the basic effects available to be picked from are increased the happier the goblin is. As well some could be unlocked after hard mode. The rating of the effect could be what’s randomized with a higher percentage chance for better things the happier the tinkerer is as well. Also having certain things in his room like a hell forge would open up the possibility of getting demonic, better tier anvils would give higher chances of getting legendary, etc. Would be really neat!
You are without a doubt my favorite terraria RUclipsr, all your videos are very engaging and informative. The defense video saved my master mode mage playthrough lmao
2:09 Not gonna lie my least favourite npc has to be the dye trader or hair stylist because I never use them. The goblin tinkerer sells rocket boots and tinkerers Workshop, and the angler can give useful items as well, some required for the cell phone.
Weapon reforges should work like this. You start with a menu option of which attribute you want to increase: damage, crit, size, speed, knockback, mana cost, velocity, etc. You get to pick which attribute to increase, at the cost of decreasing another. If you increase size, you decrease speed. That sort of thing. Make it a cumulative value, so if you reforge towards size you get an additional +5 size and -5 speed each time. Allow a higher value cap than +/-15, make it go to say 40-50%. This allows players to customize their weapons towards specific playstyles without creating a single modifier that is best in all scenarios like legendary/unreal/mythical.
Going into this video with a grain of salt, bro was actually cooking instead of coping
Make more analytical videos like these
There needs to be more than just looking up the weapon on the wiki and rolling until you get whichever best in slot reforge you want since it just turns into a mandatory money sink.
Some of those improved modifiers shown would actually be cool to have around just to make you decide on what you want your playstyle to be like you shown.
I never thought there was anything inherently wrong with the reforge system... until now. I hope the devs see this and implement some of these suggestions.
I haven't played Terraria in a long time, but I do like a lot of the ideas you're proposing. I never thought too hard about reforges, but at the same time there weren't as many of the challenging bosses in the game that people would want to optimize their equipment for. Making Legendary rarer and the other positive modifiers more distinct in what they're affecting feels like it would spice up gameplay and give a reason to experiment with different modifiers.
ngl the way you've suggested changing the reforge system sounds very fun. I would personally just remove legendary, unreal, and mythical so the other reforges could shine, as I think a lot of people would just keep rolling for the 'all-around' reforge
also I would 100% go for a MASSIVE sword build. I want to attack THE ENTIRE screen that sounds AWESOME
First of all, I feel that it is important to note that for tools, particularly picks, axes, and hammers, the "Light" modifier is optimal for harvesting/mining.
Second, it's also worth noting that the attack speed modifiers DON'T effect the speed tools harvest/mine, only the speed at which damage ticks occur. Other than the inherent modifier, the only way to buff pick use speed is with buffs that are explicitly for "Mining Speed", and axes can't be buffed for speed beyond their inherent modifier. I'm uncertain how buffs influence hammers, but suspect it's a similar case as axes.
Third, I think that since tools are functionally solved in terms of modifier, given that it is simply better to swap to a weapon if you need to defend yourself, a similar diversification for tool modifiers could be interesting. Range and speed would be pretty easy to add, but tool power would need to be added in such a way that it didn't allow a reforge to give a tool the power to break blocks that it shouldn't be able to. Axes could have something to adjust drop chances from shaking trees.
Fourth, summoning is a bit of a thorny issue.
A. Simple damage modification doesn't really change anything that isn't already being changed by the current system. Additionally, since just about every other stat that might currently be modified is either negligible or a non-issue for summoners, its hard to set up a meaningful trade off for their modifiers without some sort of new stats to be changed.
B. Summons generally have fairly distinct behavior, which makes something like "Minion Move Speed" tricky. For example, "Minion Move Speed" would be exceedingly effective on something like the Terraprisma, which heavily relies on its movements to determine its damage output. Contrast that with an Imp Staff, where the damage comes from a projectile and abruptly the movement isn't nearly as important. Adding "Minion Projectile Speed" doesn't really help considering the various minions that don't use projectiles.
C. Adding "Minion Critical Chance" would be problematic for another of reasons, not least of which is that the lack of Minion Crits is one of the things that currently defines the class, even if it would offer a route for introducing further complexity and differentiation among summons.
D. Similarly, Knockback is something that is very dependent on the minion in terms of their behavior and utility, so changing it with a modifier for the minions could have problematic follow on effects.
E. Since minion summon buffs aren't time dependent, mana costs are nearly a negligible issue for Summoners, so modifying mana costs doesn't significantly impact them. It's so negligible that the wiki doesn't even list mana costs. If there was some kind of mana-upkeep cost of "n" mana per minute per minion, that might have been one thing, but there isn't and it's unlikely to be added at this point.
F. Adjusting minion capacity is something that would be either be balanced in the early game or the late game, or be nearly negligible in the same way the current "Arcane" modifier is. If you could double your minion count with a reforge, it would help provide early game viability, but end up truly broken in the end game, where you could have 22 Terraprisma turning the screen into a seizure inducing nightmare. If the bonus applied such that you ended up with maybe an additional 2-3 minions in the end game, early game would likely struggle to meaningfully benefit from such a small bonus. If you allowed it to round up to plus one minion, it would make the Pygmy Necklace nearly useless until you are doing late game min-maxing. If you didn't, it would be difficult to make any use of it until nearly the end of pre-hardmode. If you set it to a flat "Plus one Minion Slot" it would have a decent amount of utility, but drop off in utility as the game progressed, especially if you found other, more interesting bonuses to provide via modifier.
G. An effect to the whip tag bonus would be a decent effect, but it really would need to be balanced against other effects to be a decent modifier and since I've already looked at all of the relevant effects that are present in other weapon/tool classes, there just aren't many good ways of approaching the issue without tailor making the modifiers available for each summon or overhauling how minions are classified and presented.
Finally, I think one way to make the "Reforge" mechanic slightly less frustrating would be to differentiate a "Random" Reforge, a "Rework" Reforge, and an "Improve" Reforge. Random Reforge would draw from the entire possible table of available modifiers and would base its price solely on the current modifier. The "Rework" Reforge would have a higher price than "Random" and would be dependent upon the current reforge tier, but would only draw from modifiers of the same value tier. The "Improve" Reforge would have a much greater price than either of the other two, potentially requiring additional material input in addition to help incentivize players to work with the less than top tier modifiers. Additionally, it would help to reduce the frustration associated with accidentally missing your desired reforge because you got into a mechanical pattern of button pushing, resulting in wasting additional cash to find it again.
TL:DR
Put "Light" on your Picks/Axes/Hammers.
"Attack Speed" doesn't effect "Mining Speed".
Tools could use their own modifier set.
Summoning weapon modifiers have very little helpful bonuses, but no easy fixes.
The Goblin Tinkerer would be less unpleasant if you could reduce the randomness and/or pay with something that isn't just cash.
The only time I remember wanting a different reforge than the best was rapid on my chain gun to kill dungeon guardian. A optional, obscure boss that nobody would go for on an average playthrough.
5:00 _this_ is what true melee should be like
I had a very similar idea for reforges years ago. really glad to see someone making it a reality!