I'm (just) old enough to have ridden on a Leeds tram, and the tracks up Otley Road were visible for most of my youth, and are probably still under the central reservation by Lawnswood School. But then, there were also 2 railway stations in the city centre, with real steam engines. And you had to have been born in Yorkshire to play cricket for the county. Nostalgia ain't what it used to be.
I am over 70, and one of my Joy's as a child was when my aunt would take me for a trip on a single decker tram. She was a tram conductress in Leeds during the war, and until the end of them. She was on the last tram as a quest, as she was the longest serving conductress. And then transferred to the buses.
If you were to make one of those crappy "bad guy" type of movies about the bitter, one legged, bad tempered head of the transport committee getting rid of the trams because he lost his leg to one in an accident then you'd have quite a fair representation of why Leeds no longer has a tram system.
@@paulcrompton2953 Although somewhat sarcastic, Alderman John Rafferty, head of the Transport Committee [he of the one leg - and there are various stories about how he actually lost the leg], previously a Councilor and sometime Mayor of Leeds was violently anti-tram. There are several theories as to why; Losing his leg to one in an accident is the most prevalent, but that they were an antiquated means of transporting the downtrodden working class to their daily grind is the more probable. How a more modern bus was any different in transporting said downtrodden workers than its tramway counterpart is unfathomable - did it get them there any faster? He was so pro-bus that there is a film of him driving one. Titled "First of a new fleet of buses with controls so simple a one-legged man can drive them" nothing explains why the buses controls were any more simple than the tram. I could go on on the theme of him being a typical left-wing trouble causer of the "I'm alright Jack" type or how he insinuated his son-in-law into the council [who later became an MP] or how we should dig up his bone and piss on them but that would make me sound bitter.
Interesting, but there is a lot to more to it than that. I went through the heartbreak of watching Sydney trams disappear by 1961, a process that started long before. Replacement of trams by buses has long been a disease in the English-speaking world in addition to France, Spain and Greece and probably other countries. The Germanic and former eastern bloc countries were more enlightened. Paris trams were gone prewar, while New York and London went early postwar and with those modern cities having disposed of trams, it seemed the ‘modern’ thing to do was follow them with the change to ‘flexible’ buses. The main belief was that roads would be cleared up to assist motorists, but failed to consider the fact that for one reason or another, people hate riding buses and many former tram passengers drove their cars instead, causing roads to be clogged much worse than ever before. In some countries, trams could be a coupled together to carry peak hour loads and these required less staff than adding more smaller buses. The ability to couple together trams has been a factor in most light rail lines since the 1980s while articulation make rather long modern trams viable. Whether Leeds will ever wake up to that fact is another matter unfortunately.
You're absolutely right - there is a lot more to it than that. When I was researching the video it just seemed like a lot of factors coming together at once that killed the trams off. To me it's still a mystery why people (including myself) just don't like buses! Thank you for your comment.
@@paulcrompton2953 Quality of ride I think is a major factor. Having once been a Melbourne tram conductor, I keep my legs in order by walking the length of my Gold Coast 43 metre trams while doing 70 km/h near my place without holding on. Essentially I dare not even stand on a moving bus. Too many bus drivers seem to have got their licences driving gravel trucks around, and of course gravel does not care if it gets a rough ride. Gold Coast trams are rarely more than a minute or two behind time. Timetables seemed nothing to the buses which the trams replaced. That comes from personal experience.
@@paulcrompton2953 The smoothness of a tram or train largely depends on how much effort is put into the smoothness of the track. However most low floor trams are really a train of four wheel trams connected together by sections suspended between the wheeled portions. Unless the track is perfect, these don’t ride quite as well as trams with bogies. Melbourne‘s conductors were phased out in the early 1990s. There would be few places in the world still using conductors but I did hear some time back that Amsterdam was going back to conductors in an attempt to get fair money out of the residents and vagrants living in that city. I don’t know of that situation anywhere else.
I remember the trams from a child in the 50s when I went to Leeds with my Mum. Sad. Then, also, why did they stop the trolley buses in Bradford? Surely they were cheaper to run and much more quiet than todays traffic. I missed those later.
@@paulcrompton2953 The buses in Perth WA are gas buses, so it says on the windows. We have air con in summer and heat in our winter, which isn't as cold as UK but feels cold to us after the high temps in summer.
The problem with trams is that they always have to have a fixed route. As the city expanded outwards it became difficult to plan where any trams lines should go. So it made more sense to move to a more flexible mode of transport. It's interesting that as the 50's began so did the expansion of Charles Roe in Crossgates who made buses. Leeds also 'suffered' from the fact that the Germans didn't carry out huge clearances in the 1940's unlike places like Liverpool, Manchester, Sheffield, Nottingham, Newcastle, etc cities that suddenly had the space to introduce modern transport systems. Leeds has always had to work around the existing Victorian and Edwardian architecture. As for why people won't use buses, they are over priced, the services are not consistent and I'm convinced that the bus drivers have Bob Newhart's record as part of the training ruclips.net/video/OvSwXcyfjbY/видео.html
Here you go: goo.gl/maps/F5wyiT3AGLmyqQHs6 Please note there were several tram depots in Leeds. Bonus fact: the now-defunct operator, Leeds Corporation Tramways, used to be headquartered in what's now the Malmaison hotel, in the city centre, which is why the building looks so grand.
@@paulcrompton2953 thanks amazing, I’ve cycled along there before. Didn’t realise what the building was. Thanks! Want to go to cric tramway centre to ride a Leeds tram
Had Leeds been able to develop their tram system in the late 1930s, as their forward-thinking General Manager Vane-Morland had wanted, then Leeds would have had tram subways under the city centre and even more segregated track in the suburbs, operated by modern single-deckers. Trams were always a political football in Leeds (socialists anti-, Tories pro-). Many countries which abandoned their trams in the 1950s/60s like the UK, have now seen sense and have reintroduced them in a far more dynamic way than us. Trolleybuses are now losing ground in many countries and are being replaced by electric buses, but these still use rubber tyres on tarmac or concrete roads, so still cause airborne and run-off pollution through tyre and road surface wear. Also, the ride quality of any vehicle is only as good as the quality of the road surface. A well-maintained tramway is far smoother and comfortable, hence why many passengers have no problem standing on trams even when seats are available.
Hello You should checkout a film called Monocontrol bus AKA Revolutionary Bus 1956 Alderman Rafferty (Labour) had shall we say Interests I Charles Roe bus and Body builders In Crossgates He said at the time if you vote for us well get rid of the trams and the people did and He did
It's hard not to feel sad that Leeds hasn't had trams in over 60 years! Hope you enjoy watching! :)
I'm (just) old enough to have ridden on a Leeds tram, and the tracks up Otley Road were visible for most of my youth, and are probably still under the central reservation by Lawnswood School.
But then, there were also 2 railway stations in the city centre, with real steam engines.
And you had to have been born in Yorkshire to play cricket for the county.
Nostalgia ain't what it used to be.
I am over 70, and one of my Joy's as a child was when my aunt would take me for a trip on a single decker tram. She was a tram conductress in Leeds during the war, and until the end of them. She was on the last tram as a quest, as she was the longest serving conductress. And then transferred to the buses.
If you were to make one of those crappy "bad guy" type of movies about the bitter, one legged, bad tempered head of the transport committee getting rid of the trams because he lost his leg to one in an accident then you'd have quite a fair representation of why Leeds no longer has a tram system.
I like the way you write! :)
@@paulcrompton2953 Although somewhat sarcastic, Alderman John Rafferty, head of the Transport Committee [he of the one leg - and there are various stories about how he actually lost the leg], previously a Councilor and sometime Mayor of Leeds was violently anti-tram.
There are several theories as to why; Losing his leg to one in an accident is the most prevalent, but that they were an antiquated means of transporting the downtrodden working class to their daily grind is the more probable. How a more modern bus was any different in transporting said downtrodden workers than its tramway counterpart is unfathomable - did it get them there any faster?
He was so pro-bus that there is a film of him driving one. Titled "First of a new fleet of buses with controls so simple a one-legged man can drive them" nothing explains why the buses controls were any more simple than the tram.
I could go on on the theme of him being a typical left-wing trouble causer of the "I'm alright Jack" type or how he insinuated his son-in-law into the council [who later became an MP] or how we should dig up his bone and piss on them but that would make me sound bitter.
Interesting, but there is a lot to more to it than that. I went through the heartbreak of watching Sydney trams disappear by 1961, a process that started long before.
Replacement of trams by buses has long been a disease in the English-speaking world in addition to France, Spain and Greece and probably other countries. The Germanic and former eastern bloc countries were more enlightened.
Paris trams were gone prewar, while New York and London went early postwar and with those modern cities having disposed of trams, it seemed the ‘modern’ thing to do was follow them with the change to ‘flexible’ buses. The main belief was that roads would be cleared up to assist motorists, but failed to consider the fact that for one reason or another, people hate riding buses and many former tram passengers drove their cars instead, causing roads to be clogged much worse than ever before. In some countries, trams could be a coupled together to carry peak hour loads and these required less staff than adding more smaller buses. The ability to couple together trams has been a factor in most light rail lines since the 1980s while articulation make rather long modern trams viable. Whether Leeds will ever wake up to that fact is another matter unfortunately.
You're absolutely right - there is a lot more to it than that. When I was researching the video it just seemed like a lot of factors coming together at once that killed the trams off. To me it's still a mystery why people (including myself) just don't like buses! Thank you for your comment.
@@paulcrompton2953 Quality of ride I think is a major factor. Having once been a Melbourne tram conductor, I keep my legs in order by walking the length of my Gold Coast 43 metre trams while doing 70 km/h near my place without holding on. Essentially I dare not even stand on a moving bus. Too many bus drivers seem to have got their licences driving gravel trucks around, and of course gravel does not care if it gets a rough ride. Gold Coast trams are rarely more than a minute or two behind time. Timetables seemed nothing to the buses which the trams replaced. That comes from personal experience.
@@tressteleg1 That's interesting. I'd imagined trams to be about as smooth as trains. Do trams around the world commonly have a conductor and driver?
@@paulcrompton2953 The smoothness of a tram or train largely depends on how much effort is put into the smoothness of the track. However most low floor trams are really a train of four wheel trams connected together by sections suspended between the wheeled portions. Unless the track is perfect, these don’t ride quite as well as trams with bogies. Melbourne‘s conductors were phased out in the early 1990s. There would be few places in the world still using conductors but I did hear some time back that Amsterdam was going back to conductors in an attempt to get fair money out of the residents and vagrants living in that city. I don’t know of that situation anywhere else.
@@tressteleg1 Did Leeds' trams likely have bogies, do you think?
I remember the trams from a child in the 50s when I went to Leeds with my Mum. Sad. Then, also, why did they stop the trolley buses in Bradford? Surely they were cheaper to run and much more quiet than todays traffic. I missed those later.
Thankfully, all-electric buses are becoming more commons in Leeds, but I'm not sure about Bradford!
@@paulcrompton2953 The buses in Perth WA are gas buses, so it says on the windows. We have air con in summer and heat in our winter, which isn't as cold as UK but feels cold to us after the high temps in summer.
The problem with trams is that they always have to have a fixed route. As the city expanded outwards it became difficult to plan where any trams lines should go. So it made more sense to move to a more flexible mode of transport. It's interesting that as the 50's began so did the expansion of Charles Roe in Crossgates who made buses. Leeds also 'suffered' from the fact that the Germans didn't carry out huge clearances in the 1940's unlike places like Liverpool, Manchester, Sheffield, Nottingham, Newcastle, etc cities that suddenly had the space to introduce modern transport systems. Leeds has always had to work around the existing Victorian and Edwardian architecture.
As for why people won't use buses, they are over priced, the services are not consistent and I'm convinced that the bus drivers have Bob Newhart's record as part of the training ruclips.net/video/OvSwXcyfjbY/видео.html
Where on the map is the old Leeds Tram depot? Thanks
Here you go: goo.gl/maps/F5wyiT3AGLmyqQHs6 Please note there were several tram depots in Leeds. Bonus fact: the now-defunct operator, Leeds Corporation Tramways, used to be headquartered in what's now the Malmaison hotel, in the city centre, which is why the building looks so grand.
@@paulcrompton2953 thanks amazing, I’ve cycled along there before. Didn’t realise what the building was. Thanks! Want to go to cric tramway centre to ride a Leeds tram
Had Leeds been able to develop their tram system in the late 1930s, as their forward-thinking General Manager Vane-Morland had wanted, then Leeds would have had tram subways under the city centre and even more segregated track in the suburbs, operated by modern single-deckers.
Trams were always a political football in Leeds (socialists anti-, Tories pro-). Many countries which abandoned their trams in the 1950s/60s like the UK, have now seen sense and have reintroduced them in a far more dynamic way than us.
Trolleybuses are now losing ground in many countries and are being replaced by electric buses, but these still use rubber tyres on tarmac or concrete roads, so still cause airborne and run-off pollution through tyre and road surface wear. Also, the ride quality of any vehicle is only as good as the quality of the road surface. A well-maintained tramway is far smoother and comfortable, hence why many passengers have no problem standing on trams even when seats are available.
สุดยอดมากๆๆครับ
Leeds is the third biggest city in the England with the worst transport system, it’s an absolute joke.
Because of the useless council !!
Leeds doesn't need trams when you can teleport - ruclips.net/user/clipUgkx8aw3KmWEzeqQdw2gZ1oq8w5SSWTvZYC8
Leftie Leeds Council thought they got in the way of cars
All change now. The left are all for public transport and are against cars.
Hello You should checkout a film called Monocontrol bus AKA Revolutionary Bus 1956 Alderman Rafferty (Labour) had shall we say Interests I Charles Roe bus and Body builders In Crossgates He said at the time if you vote for us well get rid of the trams and the people did and He did
Who cares?