Why the Japanese Military wanted to fight on after(!) the 2nd Nuke (feat. D.M. Giangreco)
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- Опубликовано: 9 июл 2018
- Some people suggest that the Atomic Bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were completely unnecessary, this is quite an "interesting" view considering that the Japanese military actually wanted to continue to fight after the second Atomic bomb was dropped. In this video, we take a closer at this issue. This video features parts of an interview with D. M. Giangreco the author of Hell to Pay. Operation Downfall and the Invasion of Japan, 1945-1947.
The full interview is available here: • D.M. Giangreco on the ...
or here as podcast (also on iTunes etc.): shows.pippa.io/military-histo...
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» SOURCES «
Giangreco, D. M.: Hell to Pay: Operation Downfall and the Invasion of Japan, 1945-1947. US Naval Institute Press: United States, 2017.
Tillmann, Barrett: Whirlwind - The Air War Against Japan 1942-1945. Simon & Schuster: United States, 2010.
Frank, Richard B.: Why Japan agreed to Unconditional Surrender, in: Military History Quarterly Autumn 2015, p. 25-37
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The full interview is available here: ruclips.net/video/_4uDfg38gyk/видео.html
or here as podcast (also on iTunes etc.): shows.pippa.io/military-history-visualized/16-interview-with-dm-giangreco-author-of-hell-to-pay-the-inv
what a load of crap.
Why no mention of the japanese ambassador talking to moscow?
no mention of Soviets already invading on japanese soil?
Interesting perspective ...
Fire bombing of tokyo killed more than the hiroshima bomb.
The Bomb Didn’t Beat Japan … Stalin Did
foreignpolicy.com/2013/05/30/the-bomb-didnt-beat-japan-stalin-did/
Re 00Billy's rude response to MHV's pinned comment - The Japanese ambassador “talking to Moscow” is addressed in this recent Giangreco article, historynewsnetwork.org/article/169567, and in considerable detail in his lengthy note 26 on pages 499-500 of Hell to Pay (Naval Institute Press, Annapolis). Other excellent accounts of what is frequently mischaracterized as a Japanese attempt to “surrender” can be found in Richard B. Frank, Downfall: The End of the Imperial Japanese Empire (Random House), p235-39; Sadao Asada in Robert James Maddox (ed.), Hiroshima in History (University of Missouri Press), p47-48; and the primary source documents presented by Michael Kort in The Colombia Guide to Hiroshima and the Bomb (Columbia University Press), p55, 64, 83-86, 277-90, 388.
All of these benefit greatly from and supplement the earlier work of Edward Drea, MacArthur's Ultra: Codebreaking and the War Against Japan (University of Kansas Press) and Robert J. C. Butow, Japan's Decision to Surrender (Stanford University Press).
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Peace fraction? Maybe not but the coup failed because there were other generals who weren't part of the "NEVER SURRENDER!" fraction. I agree with you that the peace party, if there actually was one, wasn't that strong, but from what I've read pre and post war there was definitely a "We're going to get our asses kicked" fraction. Yamamoto was one. In the end they did surrender, peace fraction or not.
ruclips.net/video/FNLUS0o69wQ/видео.html
@@00BillyTorontoBill The Japanese were not interested in surrender. They wanted a negotiated settlement that was unacceptable to the Allies as far back as the Casablanca Agreement of 1943. In addition the Soviets were not interested in brokering any deal that did not include the return of Sakhalin island and other Russian possessions that the Japanese took at the conclusion of the Russo-Japanese War.
We are all fortunate that Emperor Showa refused to leave Tokyo and hide in the isolated and remote bunker the Army had prepared for him and the Imperial Household. Had he left Tokyo, no one would have been able to stop the Army, which had essentially embarked on a policy of National Suicide.
"The war situation has not necessarily developed in Japans favor" - emperor hirohito
One of my favorite quotes of the war
Following are our terms. We will not deviate from them. There are no alternatives. We shall brook no delay.
My favorite quote.
i learnt this from hoi4
Understatement of the Century.
Jules Asbeek There are quite a lot of instances in my life where this quote can be applied.
One of the biggest understatements of world history.
'The desire to perish with honour may well occur to the individual, but the responsible statesman must accept that the broad mass of the people has the right soberly to demand to live rather than die in glory.' - Prince Maximilian of Baden, 1918.
It's good quote by a non-japanese. Which is exactly why it doesn't apply in this context.
@@JohnRodriguesPhotographer I take the existence of Japan to be evidence for a societal desire and priority goal of survival. That does not imply the same for members of the armed forces. The US Army extracted from me a pledge of self sacrifice in the Soldier's Creed (previous versions were explicit that we were expendable). This is not so different from the Japanese. However, one must remember that the purpose of sacrifice is preservation of family and country and this I take to be true of Japan now and in WW2 (Great Pacific War) else Japan would fade away even though this creed was not completely tested until 1945 (there must have been those who agreed with the Emperor's decision and logic else it would not have been carried out). A soldier who seeks to preserve personal honor by destroying those who grant the honor is insane and has no function. I would presume Japanese in 1945 are easily capable of such fundamental logic.
@@terryrogers6232 For most Japanese the emperor's could not be questioned. They had no choice. There were those that committed suicide after the order.There was flight of Japanese planes that crashed into the sea near a US Task Force in impotent rage. There was a coup attempt to capture the emperor in order to stop the surrender. The searched for the recordings that were to be broadcast to the nation to announce the surrender.
I saw a documentary once that had rare footage of Japanese training videos they were showing in 1945 to Japanese school children and the drills they were doing in the school yards. They would set up barbed wire tanglefoot and then the kids were taught to bridge the wire with their bodies so that soldiders could step over them to get at American positions. I'm not talking about teenagers either, i'm talking about 4th graders. Anyone who thinks the Japanese wouldn't have taken one million American men into the the grave with them without the dropping of these weapons in absolutely ignorant of the context and truth of the end of the World War II in the Pacific.
Not sure about "one million American men" but the Japanese military was very much willing to fight to the last civilian (as Saipan and Okinawa had shown). Even if 125,000 Americans dead (10X Okinawa) or 50,000 dead, would have been too much - those people didn't start the war, and no reason they should have to be exposed to such threats unnecessarily.
@@michaeldunne338 US planners had an average ratio of casualties so far in the war called "Pacific Experience" and that ratio was roughly 2 dead and 7 wounded per 1000 men per day of combat. Given a projected invasion force of 725, 000 men. That comes to 1450 dead and 5000 wounded every day. So whether it reached a million depended entirely how long Japan held out and how fanatical the general population was.
@@patrickturner6878 Most of the casualties were sustained initally during the invasion and then generally drop off as resistence by the Japanese become weaken and the lack of stockpiles would be felt. For Olympic though it would have been likely the same. Most of the kamakazi plane attacks would have hit the US naval fleet at its most vulnreable point, supporting the beach landings. Thereafter the attacks would drop sharply. The second is while the Japanese had mountainous terrain advantage they only has 2 months of food stockpiled the longer the stalemate the weaker the Japanese forces would have gotten.
thats a pretty standard tactic in most armies. using children, while shocking, isnt surprising on japans part. they were literally training children strapped with explosives to dive under us tanks and vehicles.
@@michaeldunne338 the us military anticipated so many casualties invading japan and commission so many purle heart medals that they were still handing them out during desert storm.
yeah. born and raised in japan with a family that fought in ww2, I know for a fact the peace faction was nothing but a minortiy, when my great grandfather was fighting in Karafuto as a captian in the Imperial 88th Division when the Soviet union invaded. after japans surrender mind you, he kept fighting on untile the begining of september,gradually falling back to Hokkaido, he fought in the battle of South Karafuto, the Battle of Etorofu island and Habamai island. once he landed on hokkaido thats when he learned that japan surrendered before he even engaged the enemy. And his response to this was " Surrender? what do you mean, the fight just started! "
(edit:)
This comment has aged, not in the best way I wished, I honestly don't even remember why I commented this, but from how I did, I guess I was just bosting about my great grand father.
One thing I want to clear up though, he did not say " Surrender? what do you mean, the fight just started! " because he was a blood thirsty killer, as some of you in the comments pointed out, he only said that because he was worried, or so I can only guess by how he told the story, about a soviet invasion.
You see, where he was stationed as a member of the 88th Division, the south Karafuto, was invaded on August 11th, he was cut off from headquarters and he and his men had to pretty much fought in isolation, he had to swim all the way to Hokkaido to give his report only to be told that they surrendered.
I don't exactly know when he decided to swim towards Hokkaido but I know that he claimed he fought for more then 10 days so at the least it had to have been from August 21st. six days after the surrender.
He told little about the battle, only really telling bits and pieces whenever he was in the mood or in the moment, he did claim to have knocked out tanks on the island using his Bow with a grenade attacked to the tip.
(I tried looking up soviet records for this, as you can imagine those records are hard to come by but, there were tanks on the island belonging to the 214th Tank brigade, maybe, when he said he knocked it out, he meant he knocked out the crew, since the tactics he said he used was to shoot the arrow into open hatches, plus the kind of grenades he would have had access to would have just harmlessly did nothing to it's armor, maybe it hit an ammo rack and blew up the whole thing but I can't find concrete records yet.)
I also don't know which unit he was a part of, a Division is big after all, and according to my father, He was the rank of Captain and from the Nakano school which explains his skillfulness at guerilla warfare.
FRIEND 711 Haha, nice story!
thanks ^^"
assuming your not lying, which i will choose to believe you aren't, i agree, nice story.
I can`t blame you for having doubt, this is a RUclips comment after all ^^" Thank you for choosing to believe me and thank you for the nice comment ^^
FRIEND 711 thanks for the story, I like to hear stories from soldiers or their children as I find they are usually unedited by the media
The Japanese were training school girls to fight the Americans with sharpened sticks. They were also issuing their troops white bed sheets with eye holes cut in them because they had noticed that white clothes prevented burns from the atomic bombs. It really doesn't sound like they were getting ready to surrender any time soon.
@@bruhiusmaximus5386 They looked more like ghosts wearing combat helmets.
@@joevignolor4u949 "when dead men start......"
their military culture had NO (as in zero, none, under any circumstances) provision for "honorable surrender". that core concept actually goes far toward explaining not only their "fanatical" fight to the last man and drop of blood performance on the battlefield, their civilian suicides when the occupying japanese forces were wiped out, but also their savage abuses of prisoners and defeated populations. the behavior they demonstrated was the exact treatment they would expect, and even desire had they engaged in "so dishonorable" a practice. in the military POV, it was FAR preferable for their culture to be wiped out and their homeland left a scorched bare rock outcropping in the pacific than to surrender even a single buck private, geisha girl, shop owner, or housewife. if a population submitted to occupation, to their eyes it ABSOLUTELY was deserving of no quarter, sympathy, or respect at any level. had the chinese civilians committed mass suicide when the IJA showed at the city gates, the japanese military would likely have honored them, as strange a concept as that may seem to us. had the surrendered troops of the bataan death march all jumped off cliffs, they would likely have been praised as "honorable warriors no less fit than ourselves". it in no way surprises me that the military would call for continued resistance after nagasaki, or even plot a coup to overthrow the emperor for suggesting any other course of action. such also explains the easy rise of "gangster culture" in the post defeat society, as they were a "nation of honorless dogs" in their own eyes. that "national shame" is demonstrated in pop culture well into the 70s if you scratch below the surface to subtext.
yes and no
there are two sides of that, while it was (the act of surrender) something that was seen as shameful, it happened
but there was also a little bit of a take no prisoner stance from many of the front line troops fighting the Japanese, so we will never really know how many men surrendered only to be killed regardless
If the Japanese expected civilians to commit mass suicide whenever an army took over, Japan would have been wiped off the map during the Sengoku Jidai period. The Japanese traditionally had a very tiered society. The peasants were generally not allowed to carry weapons unless mustered as soldiers by their lord. When a rival warlord took over, his soldiers could have some 'fun' with the locals, but the majority of them were needed to work the land, trade, and generally raise money so that the new lord could maintain his army.
China had a huge population, more than the IJA could hope to effectively pacify especially considering the communist element in the country. The leadership let their soldiers loose on the country to cull the population down to a manageable level. But China would be useless to Japan without a bunch of free labor to extract the resources for the home islands.
flyboymb, what you seem to not realize is that 1. The ideology of the Sengoku Jidai and of the 2nd World War Japanese military are quite different. While they did do a lot of "we are the samurai of ye olde times" during the WW2 period, they absolutely did not behave how most samurai of the Sengoku Jidai would have behaved. Therefore your "Japan would have been wiped off the map during Sengoku Jidai" point is both moot and false. And 2. Peasants were not allowed to carry weapons until after Toyotomi Hideyoshi came to power as the 2nd Unifier of Japan, the disarming being carried out in 1588 and the weapons being melted down to make a statue of the Buddha, therefore for most of what is considered Sengoku Jidai peasants absolutely were allowed to bear arms.
Flyboymb First, you're comparing the 16th century with the 20th. Second, you're comparing occupation by a different Japanese lord with occupation by barbarians. Third, saying the Japanese would have respected the Chinese more had they committed mass suicide does not mean they wanted or expected that to happen. Fourth, the OP is specifically talking about the military's attitudes and expectations, which were not necessarily shared by the rest of society - the vast majority of the population of Okinawa, for example, did not commit suicide rather than be occupied.
China wasn't communist until Mao's revolution in 1949 m'good friend. Maybe I misunderstood you though. Cheers
the military went to crazy lengths to stop the broadcast of surrender. the story how it actually happened is quite amazing in itself
the heads of the military were all cowards; their only interest was saving their own skins
japanese military didn't fear death.they weren't like iraqi military who surrendered in a flash
@@rook1196 Is that why huge numbers of the general staff committed seppuku?
Its worth mentioning that there were still thousands of Japanese troops outside of Japan, across China, Malaya, Singapore etc. Even after Japan itself surrendered there was a real risk the overseas troops would fight on. Singapore for example nearly fought and would have been a very bloody battle, and when the British arrived at Hong Kong there was some skirmishes to be done before control was fully asserted.
MetalRodent you are correct. Not all Japanese military surrendered on August 15th.
didn't they find a japanese soldier decades after the war in (i think the Philippines or somewhere else idr) who never knew the war actually ended?
+ Spartan0430
That was a covert missions unit that had been specifically instructed that the enemy would attempt to fool them by trying to tell them the war was over, and that they were not to give up their mission under any conditions, except when relieved by their commanding officer.
really interesting! thank you
ruclips.net/video/U6rOSe3EsdM/видео.html
I love this topic as it is so often trivialized at the end of most books. My opinion is based upon reading both "The Rising Sun" by John Toland and "Truman" by David McCallough - both are highly celebrated authors. Plus other misc. sources.
After Leyte Gulf (Battle of), Japan offered surrender based upon three conditions;
1. The Emperor remains.
2. No war crime trials.
3. No troops placed within Japan proper.
The US flatly refused, demanding Unconditional only. The war in the Pacific continues until we come to mid-August 1945. The US is confident that after suffering one, maybe two, atomic bombing Japan will sue for peace and thereby end the war. But when this doesn't happen, the US finds themselves in a serious, serious pickle for the following reasons;
-A physical invasion was rapidly becoming the only option left.
-Through code-breaking, US CMD believes Japan intends to defend "Iwo Jima" style and continuously reinforce it's army by pulling troops out of China via the Sea of Japan (the only remaining sea that Japan maintained control of).
-Fighting on an island nation is nothing similar to fighting over a 2-3 sq mile piece of ground where you can just circle your battleship round and round for 24/7 fire support. Once troops push far enough inland, that weapon is gone.
-Logistically speaking, just supplying an initial invasion (first month) force over that distance in the fall/winter when ocean storms begin would make Overlord look like a tea party support-wise.
-While the USMC was refilling its ranks in prep - after Okinawa, Iwo, Sapain and Tarawa, veteran units (units that fought two of those battles) existed only on paper while experienced (fought in one) were at 40-50% readiness at best. Everyone else was considered green. Marine Corp CMD was so scared that they informed MacArthur that after the second week, they'll be combat ineffective.
-When troops in occupied Europe were told that they were not going home (remember "Home by Christmas Boys!) but rather transferred to the Pacific in prep, there were open rebellions and serious moral/discipline problems with the attitude "We did our job, they can do theirs."
-Dropping a third bomb and hoping that'll do the trick will have to wait another 6-8 months as "Right now sir, we are fresh out!"
-In the time it takes for the US to fight and die in an invasion measured on a mile by mile basis just to see the Russians blitzing through all of occupied China and Korea. And based upon what happened Eastern Europe, won't be in the mood to return to their rightful owners in the near future...well...isn't that the reason we embargoed Japan in the first place?
So, what to do? So Washington thought about it and came up with this;
"Japan, The Emperor remains, war crimes will be limited to Geneva convention violators, China will not participate in the trials, but we occupy."
Japan, realizing that their plan to pull troops out of China is busted with Russia's entrance, said "Deal".
P.S. - Toland's "The Rising Sun" is the only comprehensive book I know that was written based solely upon interviews with Japanese veterans. I highly recommend it for a different viewpoint.
Sad your comment is ignored. This whole channel and comments section is a marxist brainwashed safe space.
Rising Sun is a great bit of work. I used to grab it and re-read it about every summer.
The nukes worked insofar that they broke the Emperor's spirit and conditioning by the military leaders, and made him realize that surrender was the only way to save the Japanese people from extermination.
Groves indicated there would be another bomb ready August 19th, 3 more in September, and 3 more in October. Why would there be a 6 to 8 month wait?
I have the same book... what made it more compelling that he actually included the cabled messages in the book.
It doesn't matter what the military leadership thought about the bomb. In the end, despite the threat of a coup, the Emperor made his decision and his line of thinking came from his surrender speech:
'After pondering deeply the general trends of the world and the actual conditions obtaining in Our Empire today, We have decided to effect a settlement of the present situation by resorting to an extraordinary measure.
We have ordered Our Government to communicate to the Governments of the United States, Great Britain, China and the Soviet Union that Our Empire accepts the provisions of their Joint Declaration.
To strive for the common prosperity and happiness of all nations as well as the security and well-being of Our subjects is the solemn obligation which has been handed down by Our Imperial Ancestors and which lies close to Our heart.
Indeed, We declared war on America and Britain out of Our sincere desire to ensure Japan's self-preservation and the stabilization of East Asia, it being far from Our thought either to infringe upon the sovereignty of other nations or to embark upon territorial aggrandizement.
But now the war has lasted for nearly four years. Despite the best that has been done by everyone-the gallant fighting of the military and naval forces, the diligence and assiduity of Our servants of the State, and the devoted service of Our one hundred million people-the war situation has developed not necessarily to Japan's advantage, while the general trends of the world have all turned against her interest.
Moreover, the enemy has begun to employ a new and most cruel bomb, the power of which to do damage is, indeed, incalculable, taking the toll of many innocent lives. Should we continue to fight, not only would it result in an ultimate collapse and obliteration of the Japanese nation, but also it would lead to the total extinction of human civilization.
Such being the case, how are We to save the millions of Our subjects, or to atone Ourselves before the hallowed spirits of Our Imperial Ancestors? This is the reason why We have ordered the acceptance of the provisions of the Joint Declaration of the Powers....
The hardships and sufferings to which Our nation is to be subjected hereafter will be certainly great. We are keenly aware of the inmost feelings of all of you, Our subjects. However, it is according to the dictates of time and fate that We have resolved to pave the way for a grand peace for all the generations to come by enduring the unendurable and suffering what is unsufferable.'
The Emperor made no mention of the Soviets. He mentioned the bombs. Indeed, the Emperor is known to have said that the war had 'become impossible to continue' on Aug 8th. The Soviets did not declare war on Japan until Aug 9th.
Hirohito for many years stayed secluded on the anniversaries of the bombings and made visits to both Hiroshima and Nagasaki within half a decade of the end of the war. This included visiting children orphaned by the blasts and those afflicted by the radiation.
He had no pressing need to do any of that, but he wasn't a single-minded warlord like his generals and admirals. Any of them could fall on their sword if things didn't go their way. If the Emperor lost, it was the end of the oldest dynasty on the planet.
So pull however many quotes from however many ministers, generals, or other underlings that you'd like. The Emperor had his mind made up before the Soviets attacked, and he was the will of the nation, not them.
An excellent comment my friend. I find interesting how the Emperor speaks of himself in plural ("We", "Ours"). Is it just because he speaks on behalf of the Japanese people or is there another reason?
Eduardo Rodríguez That's just the use of the royal We. European monarchies usually did it too in official proclamations, it has to do with the crown/throne/office of monarch being an institution and not a person.
"The Emperor made no mention of the Soviets"-Actually he mentions the soviets in your third paragraph, where he accepts the 'joint' ie Potsdam declaration, and orders the government to communicate it to the soviets inter alia- but the soviets weren't a party to the Potsdam Declaration being neutral at the time and had just declared war a few days earlier and broke off any direct communication. He skirts the issue. When he recorded the speech on 14aug he must have been well aware of the magnitude of the soviet offensive. Only a fool would believe that saying uncle would cease that offensive before its objectives were reached.
It shows clearly the emperor put great emphasis on the atomic bomb. But still, a few questions remain. (1) The other higher ups in the decision making proces: how were their feeling towards the atomic bombs or the Soviet invasion? Maybe some of the others saw in the USSR the greater danger. (2) Japan explicitly wanted to surrender to the USA. Isn't it logical to put emphasis on their feats (the nuclear bombs) when doing that?
When making an analysis of historical events, one must always take what is publicly stated with a truckload of salt.
If we were to take speeches and official declarations as gospel - then according to German declaration of war on USSR we would be led to believe that Hitler didn't have a plan to invade the USSR as early as 1940 and was only forced to reluctantly declare a preemptive war in order to protect themselves from imminent Soviet invasion. Needless to say, such a conclusion would be erroneous.
Instead, an analysis of transcripts of meetings b/w political and military elite of Japan is much more likely to lead us to the right conclusions.
I've always been puzzled by those who argue that the atomic bombs that were dropped on Japan were especially terrible.
Apparently the prior fire-bombings of various Japanese cities were perfectly acceptable to critics, since they apparently inflicted no inconveniences on the Japanese.
Because no one talks about those. Every middle schooler in America learns about how the atomic bombs were necessary. No where else will you see the mass slaughter of hundreds of thousands of civilians be so carelessly hand waved away.
@@CarrotConsumer Are you sure about that? The Japanese still haven´t even formally acknowledged all the atrocities they committed. Your kids are taught that because it is true. The other option was full scale invasion. That would have cost at least a hundred thousand lives of US soldiers, many more crippled for life, and milions of Japanese lives as well. So tell me, what is better about that option? Or are you just happy to see your own soldiers die?
Your whataboutism is shameful
@@Franfran2424 -- No, apparently it's perfectly acceptable to fire bomb cities because no one -- no even you -- ever complains about it.
@@kevinbyrne4538 The mass fire bombings of Tokyo were designed because Japanese industry was not centralized in factories like in Europe, but rather widely disbursed throughout the city. Most structures were wood.Hence, fire bombs. Also, the high winds over Japan made high altitude bombing ineffectual.This was all explained in author Martin Caidin's book "A Torch to the Enemy." Of course it is not "acceptable" to fire bomb, atomic bomb, or conventionally bomb cities and kill civilians. It is an epic tragedy. Against Japan's military, there was no other way. Their culture was victory or death. They weren't worried about their civilian population, so what was the option?
Thanks for the good re-visit of this underappreciated bit of history. Many good-hearted people are too quick to gloss over the bloodthirsty nature of militarist Japan. Back in the 1960's Japan's movie industry was more clear-sighted, and they produced a number of superb movies that looked at the dark side of their own history. "Japan's Longest Day" （日本の一番長い日）is all about the machinations behind the Emperor's surrender broadcast, and well worth watching.
Advance in the opposite direction. No need to say: "Retreat".
Das Finale got it right
@@FlagAnthem based
My father was on Okinawa preparing for the invasion of Kyushu. Combat Engineers had a very high casualty rate in amphibious landings. Those two atomic bombs saved him and his fellow Soldiers from a horrific battle and are probably why I am alive today.
and saved our POW's
Planet Nine
I met a former marine who had been at Okinawa, he was not in the least interested in the sophomoric arguments that dropping the nukes was “unnecessary”.
My Father was 1st Marine division,
We lost a Cousin in Battle for Okinawa (my Father was his recruiter) Sgt N.R.Lofstrom U.S.M.C.
One uncle was hurt in the Battle for Iwo Jima.
Another uncle was U.S.Army 25th infantry, was in the Philippines at the end.
The estimated casualties for the invasion of Kyushu was 1 million U.S., 3 to 7 million Japanese.
My father was part of the occupation forces in Germany. He said that they were told that they would be invading Japan and began to train for that invasion until Japan announced its surrender.
@@travisleeabq The argument goes that Japan was already looking to surrender. But they rejected the call for unconditional surrender in the Potsdam declaration. They had noticed that the Soviet Union wasn't part of the declaration (made by USA, UK and China) and were trying diplomatic channels to see what Stalin's position was and if he might help them negotiate a peace. Before the atomic bombings, the Emperor had been advised that they could obtain Soviet assistance in negotiating a more favorable peace.
The same day as the second atomic bombing Stalin declared war and the Soviets invaded Manchuria. That eliminated hope of obtaining more favorable terms and raised the prospect of Japan being divided like Germany was. I believe the atomic bombs were unnecessary to make the Japanese surrender, but that doesn't mean they had no impact in the equation. Knowing the USA had this technological advantage allowed Truman a better position to tell the Soviets to stay out of Japan and provide assurance to government of Japan that they would not be occupied by the Soviets.
THANK YOU for keeping it short and sweet! So many videos hook you with their title, but then say, “But first, lets look at the history of this subject! Back in 2000 BC ...” and drag it out, only answering the question at the end of a long, drawn out narrative.
Few people know the U.S. had a third Atomic bomb that was to be dropped on Japan. it had just been completed and was being flown to Tinian Island when word was received of Japan's surrender. The plane carrying it to Tinian was stopped in California when it landed to fuel up.
The allies would no choice but to drop a 3rd bomb on Tokyo. The imperial palace would have been the aiming point, ground zero.
medieval mindset in a modern conflict.......imho.
That's actually true. Emperor Hirohito's wife wrote shortly after the war that when she saw all the American B-29's flying over Tokyo she realized that ancient legends and honor codes would not win a modern war.
Yes and no - few cultures throughout history including medieval ones were anything close to the fanaticism of the Japanese military, and parts of the German SS
That´s actually not entirely true. Most rulers in the medieval period were reasonable enough to realize when they were beaten. Most conflicts in that period ended with negotiations, reparations, maybe even political marriages. This level of fanaticism is extremely rare.
@@jirkazalabak1514 it mostly happened in a warrior society
@@kaderpdi1982 Not even there. I know that even warrior societys like the vikings, the huns or the mongols knew that sometimes it is better to surrender. Only when you survive you can beat the enemy another day. This level of fanatical stupidity is not "medieval". The only incident comparable is maybe the mass suicide at Massada. But that is much older and doesn't fit to "medieval".
1:29 Looks like a Russiaball
The audio for this video is very good and I don't have problems hearing you properly, wish all were like this.
THANKS! it's always trying to hear that "willingness to surrender" story all the time.
If Japan had not surrendered when they did, the U.S. was going to hit Kokura with an atomic bomb on Aug. 19th. The plan was to drop a total of 12 bombs, with more being dropped through Sept. and Oct. as they became available. People are flat wrong when they say dropping the bombs were unnecessary. The Japanese had shown all throughout the war that they were willing to fight to the death. And two million Japanese soldiers were waiting to defend Japan from an American invasion. Casualty estimates for the invasion were staggering. Dropping the bombs was an attempt to end the war. The Soviets didn't attack the Japanese until two days after the first bomb was dropped.
Kokura was a lucky city. It was the primary target for the 2nd bomb but obscured by cloud cover, so they diverted to the secondary target, Nagasaki.
@@deplorable_bitter_clinger7482 The city was also obscured by smoke from damage from nearby areas getting firebombed the day before - believe Yawata and the Yawata steel works. (Yawata, Kokura, Wakamatsu, Moji would merge to become Kitakyushu city in 1963).
I highly recommend a book called "Japans Longest Day" by the Pacific War Research Society. It details the failed coup and what happened that prevented the Military from gaining control.
thank u
Thanks again for another insightful video!
Good stuff! Look forward to much more in 2019.
Fascinating! It must have been a real head scratcher for the Americans of that era.. ("Wow, what's wrong with these people, don't they ever give-up?!") On the one hand you have to respect their resolve, on the other, their complete disregard for the men and civilians is rather nauseating.
I did learn something new. Thanks for the video!
Very interesting video and well done. Thank you.
*first nuke drops* Japan: pfffft bet you cant do that twice.
*Second nuke drops* Japan: Alright, let's re-think a few things here.
"are we *sure they have more than two?"
The Americans had a third...just never used it. It became the demon core!
The Japanese High command had someone like Comrade Dyatlov, "You didn't see a second bomb. You didn't! Because it's not there."
I met the man who was the pilot of the B-29 that flew as the weather plane for the second bomb drop. He explained that their orders were to drop the bomb. Later he learned that those orders were so that the Japanese thought we had an unlimited supply of super bombs.
He said meanwhile we were running out of targets as the fire bombing of Japanese cities was burning tens of square miles a raid. He also said that the American attitude of the time amongst those
Americans who had lost fellow American pilots and friends after capture by the Japanese in the Philippines, "They were lucky we only had two."
He subsequently acquired several degrees, lived in Japan and Turkey, becoming a successful businessman who spoke Japanese and Turk.
The third bomb would've been ready by August 19th. The production schedule was 3 or maybe 4 in Sept, 3 in Nov and 3 in Dec. This was reported to Gen. Marshall's staff by Gen. Grove's staff. All of these of course were plutonium bombs ("Fat Man").
One thing that did change was the idea was batted around to use the next nukes for tactical purposes to aid in the invasion. The thought was if the two did not do the trick, then each further bomb would have a diminishing return on convincing the military to surrender. So instead use them right before the invasion force comes ashore to wipe out all resistance in the area. Of course the effects of radiation were not well understood at the time...
Excellent presentation!
Thanks for precious knowledge
BTW the Japanese strategy identified and labelled as "maximum bloodletting" had a name in Japanese. It was called "ketsu-go"
Remember that 73% of the Japanese home islands are mountainous. How effective would a Soviet army unable to effectively use armor, let alone their heavy armor be in such an invasion? The only example of the Soviets fighting in similar terrain is Afghanistan. That was not a win.
not to mention they had almost no amphibious capability.
My Brother in law's mother is full Japanese. She married a service member (His Father) during Korea and came to the USA with him after the war. She was close enough to one of the bombs dropping to be able to see it and developed breast cancer in the 70's most likely due to it. She passed in 2014 of cancer. We asked her about whether it was necessary to drop the bombs after my dad and her were talking about history (Father served in European theatre during the war). She said it had to be done, there was no way that they would of just stopped without it. Also held no ill will towards the US for the bombings either. Just an incredible woman to talk to.
This illustrates the dynamic behind the conflict between Hirohito and the diehard faction in the military. Great video, I really appreciate it.
They prolly thought "we survived Tokyo firebombing what is 2 more bombs gonna do?!"
LeMay would have had the B-29s plus all the American and British bombers from Europe at his disposal. That would have given the Japanese something to think about during the intervals between A-Bombs.
Wow, great video man. This is one of the most misunderstood areas in all of history. I had thought the Japanese were basically willing to negotiate, mostly to ensure their emperor wouldn’t be executed, but the US demanded, immediate and unconditional surrender. When it wasn’t granted we dropped the atomic bomb, when it wasn’t granted a second time we dropped a second one. Did we actually promise not to try the emperor before the war actually ended?
The Potsdam Declaration made no mention of the emperor specifically, but it insinuated that his removal would be required with the line, "the authority and influence of those who have deceived and misled the people of Japan into embarking on world conquest must be eliminated for all time."
This did complicate the surrender as this was one issue the Japanese were never going to bend on. The problem was that no response came from the Japanese because there was an argument among factions in the Japanese government. Some favored asking for only one condition, that the Emperor remain in power. Some favored multiple conditions to lessen the economic and occupational impacts on Japan. Others favored no surrender at all (the military leaders that this video is about, some even imposed martial law against anyone supporting peace).
After Nagasaki and the Emperor's intervention (he agreed to the unconditional surrender and any consequences that came with it fearing that if this continued Japan as a nation and people would cease to exist) the consensus quickly shifted to that of Foreign Minster Togo's plan of asking only for the Emperor to be left in power and this was wisely accepted otherwise even with the Emperor's sincere intent to surrender Japan likely would have continued to fight.
Very good video and informations!
good Lord 😻
Good information
Thanks
Giangreco's book goes into great detail about Japanese preparations for defeating an Allied invasion. Long story short: they spared no effort to erect fortifications and store ammunition. It would have been a bloodbath. They never would have given up. That it took TWO bombs to allow the "peace faction" to even match the war faction in the cabinet, whose tie the Emperor broke with his unprecedented intervention, shows how Japan was prepared to fight on regardless of the cost. The bombs therefore were decisive, not the Soviet invasion of Manchuria.
+KillerKane0+ Though they might have been screwed if the US decided to ignore the southern island Kyushu and focused on Honshu instead. Japan had devoted almost all of its resources to defending in that area and would have to be relocated under constant air attack if they even hoped to put a dent in the invasion. It surely would have been a bloodbath but it would put the defenders on the back foot.
cnlbenmc Impossible given the longer sea routes and reduced air cover. Moreover, Kamikaze attacks would have been intense no matter where the landings occurred.
Yes, but nukes could be used for bridgehead clearing and interdiction of japanese movement. The joint chiefs predicted casualy rates equivalent to ops in phillipines.
+KillerKane0+ The US made extensive plans for a Honshu invasion, it would have first called for occupying a smaller island off the coast not too far from Tokyo. Then the main island assault would begin after it was secured and made into a jumping off point. The Allies had not been idle in the face of Kamikaze threat; Combat Air Patrols were to be massively increased and prototype AWACs style B-17 conversions were to be used for early warning.
And the Japanese still would have fought to the death, taking as many Allied soldiers, sailors, aircrew, and marines as possible.
Thank you. That Japanese intransigence in the face of two nukes is poorly known. Hard for us to grasp that mentality and guilt is thrown at US leaders when Japanese Army deserves the blame.
I really enjoyed this and the previous video and am a fan of Giangreco's book. Will you make the full interview available at some point?
Uhm it is already available since Tuesday
That time stamp is really nice
0:19 Damn that's hardcore.
My father was told he was too old to be drafted, 'We'll never draft people as old as you'. That changed after the Pearl Harbor attack. He then fought in many of the major battles in Europe. From Germany his unit returned to the States and was given 30 days leave. Told that they would re-arm and go to Japan. Though he never said so, I suspect that he didn't mind the Japanese being nuked.
After watching this and your previous video, I was thinking you might find Restricted Data: The Nuclear Secrecy Blog, an interesting source of materials and ideas. The author, Alex Wellerstein is a "historian of science who specializes in the history of nuclear weapons and nuclear secrecy", has posted quite a few interesting articles about the decision to bomb Japan, its consequences, and aftermath. Not to mention a few posts on the German atomic program, such as it was. And, an excellent and informative video as always!
Thank you.
The components for the 4th atom bomb were either on the way to Tinian or already there. It would have been ready to flatten Kyoto by the end of August. Others on the list were Kokura, Yokohama and Niigata
By 1 November 12 more would have been available to be used on defenses in Kyushu or on the above cities.
I thought Kyoto had been taken off the target list. The Nagasaki bomb had been intended for Kokura, but Kokura had bad weather on the 9th so they diverted to Nagasaki. based on that I would think Kokura would have been the next target. Marshall wanted to save them for tactical use preceding an invasion.
The plans for Operation Olympic and "X-Day" were pretty awful. Virtually every city in Japan of any consequence had already been flattened by US B-29's, hence the reason that a handful of cities were "spared" (placed on the atomic target list and therefore taken OFF the fire-bombing target lists of LeMay. In point of fact, LeMay basically said he'd "be out of targets" by the late fall of 1945... meaning the B-29's would have completely leveled anything above ground they were capable of striking with any effect. The US had plans for the large-scale bombing of Japan with chemical weapons to reduce the population available to resist in invasion areas and hopefully eliminate some of the defending troops or at least "harass" them to make them less effective. Two more atomic bombs were available in short order for continued strategic bombing operations and a third was nearly completed, and atomic bombs were to be produced at the rate of 1-2 per month for the foreseeable future into 1946. The reason that the US held off on further atomic attacks after Nagasaki was that, IF the invasion was deemed necessary, the plan was to start using those atomic bombs as tactical weapons, to nuke marshaling points or troop concentrations or to "soften up" defensive positions ahead of US invasion forces. This would have been utterly devastating to not only the Japanese troops and civilians, but to US invasion forces as well, and would have been an ecological nightmare... the two strategic nuclear strikes on Japan were airbursts over cities that produced no appreciable fallout and minimal residual radiation; tactical use of nuclear weapons against entrenched or underground defensive emplacements, bunkers, underground factories, caches of weapons or entrenched troops, etc. would have involved nuclear detonations at ground level (given the capability of the weapons) or at very low altitudes, essentially "groundbursts" which produce enormous amounts of fallout and residual long-half-life residual radioactive byproducts compared to the relatively "clean" airbursts used over Hiroshima and Nagasaki... and Japanese troops and civilians "downwind" would have been stuck right under it, and US invasion troops would have had to fight their way through it. It would have made Fukushima look like a church picnic... US estimates ranged from 100,000 casualties up to a million (which the former was ridiculously low and the latter probably too high, a half million or so was probably more realistic), but Japanese casualties ranged from about 2 to 20 million, military and civilian. 5-10 million would have probably been realistic, depending on when they finally decided to throw in the towel.
Later! OL J R :)
Interesting, but I have read that we did not have enough fissile material for another bomb, and we couldn’t have had another one ready for about 8 months...
@@jamesw1659 That's quite accurate. Those who claim that the US had unlimited supplies of atomic weapons are pushing cartoon history. Also one has to ask, what the response of the hundreds of thousands of Japanese troops who still occupied territories full of hapless civilians would have been to the slaughter of their people. I guess since the victims of Japanese reprisals would mostly have been Asian, that would have been okay with the US and other western liberators.
From my perspective, I have the high ground
Don't do it, Anakin! I have the high ground.
Bernhard, we all hope you are well and that you recover quickly.
Thank you
Paul Fussell's " Thank God for the Atom Bomb" explains why it was necessary to drop the bombs. He describes the situation faced by American ground troops who were not looking forward to an invasion of Japan proper. He tells about how there were still hundreds of landing craft still lying there rusting away somewhere in Okinawa ( back in 1985). I can't remember the name of the staging area where the were getting ready for Operation Olympic. It was an objection to those critics who expressed criticism and skepticism as to whether top military officials were really planning a massive invasion of Japan proper.
Hirohito and his trusted advisers had to break imperial protocol to record and broadcast the surrender.... the Army hot heads tried so hard to hide the recording... it would take an emperor to get the IJA to lay down their armw...
When are you going to interview Richard B Frank?
How much of this strategy came from the culture and how much came from the fact that the Japanese leaders knew that an unconditional surrender would surly lead to their own trials and executions for war crimes.
I'm not sure they feared death as much as the shame that would come with a trial.
Something to think about when you considered the actions of Hirohito.
He had to know that an unconditional surrender not only meant shame and death for him, but also the destruction of his house, A house that had ruled Japan for more than 2500 years.
The fact he and his house were spared must have been very surprising to him, and it came down to having policy makers that were not only understood the Japaneses culture, but were in a position to protect Hirohito from their own government.
People love to bash the United States for using atomic weapons, yet the never considered the length the US went to to preserve the Japanese culture.
I bet you will not find any case where a defeated nation was so well cared for after the war, especially a nation that started the war by launching an unprovoked sneak attack.
I agree with your post. It does, however, show how damned stupid the USA is.
@@brucewelty7684 So you think it was damned stupid to preserve the Japanese culture so that anger and resentment would not be a factor to later generations?
Perhaps you think that Japan should have been punished just like Germany was after WWI?
Yes, I see your point. It is very stupid to learn from past mistakes so you can avoid making them again in the future.
@@erictaylor5462 The mistake with both Germany (twice) and Nippon is that you should NEVER allow a country to be rebuilt sufficiently to reorganize another incursion. Pillage them back to the stone age. Strip everything of value from them and destroy whatever is left. As it is now the USA is STILL fighting both the Krauts and the Nippers....and losing. Nippon is not an ally they are self-serving racists. And you as a Gaijin should know that.
@@brucewelty7684 Oh, I agree the Japanese are deeply racist, but then so are you, clearly. So you are calling the kettle black, as they say.
I don't agree that we are still at war. In economic competition, sure, but that is far from the same thing.
Your racism clearly clouds your judgment. I doubt I will convince you of anything with facts, so why bother? People like you don't give a crap about facts, unless they support your preconceptions.
@@brucewelty7684 What you suggest doing is precisely what was done to Imperial Germany and the Central Powers after WW1. It created a hotbed of resentment toward the victors who had pillaged the losing countries, and forced years-long financial reparations on the losing countries. This engendered massive inflation, caused shortages of both goods and food, and led to widespread criminality. Splendid! And this led to both fascist and communist factions openly fighting to control the government, and, eventually, to WW2. This is why the winners don't behave this way - it guarantees a repeat performance a few years down the line. Rebuilding Germany was the best thing we ever did. We eliminated an enemy, and created an economic powerhouse that has helped anchor a peaceful Europe for over seventy years.
The action of the Emperor, who was a "God" to the Japanese people, gave the Japanese the permission to honorably capitulate. In the prior fighting, the soldiers and civilians would rather die than dishonor themselves to the Emperor. His saying, "it's okay" relieved them of that duty to die for him. It made a peace, thought there still was the ability to resist, a consideration.
We might also keep in mind that in contemporary times, we need to look at who our enemies are and their mindsets and motivations as well. There is no "Emperor" or "God" to tell them to stop doing things so they keep on doing it in the belief it is for the greater glory or for the survival of what they hold dead.
No dishonor to the emperor
Can anybody make out what's being said from about 3:26 to 3:30? I don't normally have much of a problem with the accent, but I just can't work out that one line for the subtitles.
Japan: oh, you're coming after me? After crippling your battleships at Hawaii?
US: I can't invade your islands without getting closer.
Japan: oh ho! Then invade as much as you like!
Jojo them intensify
US STAND: LITTLE BOY & FAT MAN
*HONOR LEVEL 100*
*REEEEEEEEEEEEE LEVEL ∞*
I gotta give it to the japanese. their soldiers are pretty brave
Shattered Jade indeed.
The Great Micheal Wittman Himself Brave and savage. Remember Nanking
Interestingly, their leaders often weren't, particularly the admirals - not so much in terms of personal courage, which they certainly showed, but in terms of aggressive warfighting. There were several occasions during the war when Japanese commanders retreated after a minor setback or failed to take advantage of an opportunity to inflict crippling damage on an American force. For example, Nagumo failed to destroy Pearl Harbor's base facilities with a third strike and his waffling at Midway (when Yamaguchi urged him to launch an immediate strike on the American carriers with whatever forces were at hand) cost him three priceless carriers, while Mikawa threw away an opportunity to crush the American landing on Guadalcanal at its inception after his victory at Savo Island. American commanders like Nimitz, Halsey, and MacArthur were much more willing to accept calculated risks when they saw an opportunity to inflict greater losses on the enemy, even in the first year or two of the war when they were outnumbered and outgunned.
Bruce, you're omitting that the admiral were fighting according to general occupational strategy. The Navy was developed to be a supportive element of the Army, thus they fought in a manner which maintained their numbers to the best of their ability. Their heaviest fighting was always at the behest of the Army in protection of overland invasions. The Navy was constituted as a defensive force, and thus they fought in that manner. Coral Sea is a perfect example of this.
Comapred to the USA, Japan operated on very limited resources, so the navy had to preserve their fighting force whenever possible so that they could continue to defend the Army wherever and whenever needed.
I wouldn't call this cowardice by any stretch, but they were perhaps overly cautious, often due to lacking the information they would have required to pursue certain victory.
You mean brainwashed. It's really easy to fight to the death when you are taught to believe that death is a better option than surrender.
can we get a link to the whole video interview?
The book "Downfall" by Frank covers all these issues. The most tell is the diary entries of the 7 senior members, including the Emperor, that occurred the day after the second bomb. The army still wanted to negotiate, two of their demands were no occupation of Japan and self demobilization.
That is not a base for real negotiations.
So the Prime Minster, the Army and Navy Secretaries, the Chief of Staffs of the Army and Navy, the Crown Prince and the Emperor weren't involved in negotiations?
Those conditions were completely unacceptable to the Allies so they were non-starters.
Sorry, misread you're post.
They didn't surrender because they too were researching the possibility of an atomic bomb. The first bomb was uranium based and therefore extremely difficult to gather material for, and Japans own nuclear scientists assumed (correctly) that another bomb of that type could not be used again for some time (like a year). The second bomb however, was plutonium based and much easier to produce the necessary material for. This type of weapon could be produced relatively quickly in comparison to the uranium weapon. The Japanese figured (correctly) that the United States could produce and use a plutonium weapon on a frequent basis. Faced with assured destruction with no means of resistance, the Japanese surrendered.
I found out recently that there were a total of seven nuclear bombs. If Japan had called another bluff, the US had another 5 bombs to drop.
It a miracle that they weren't used in the end.
The plan was to produce atomic bombs and drop them at the rate of one every 3 months if Japan didn't surrender.
Cameron, the US had plans for those bombs, but they were still being built. After the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the American stockpile was completely depleted, at least temporarily.
The Japanese concluded early on that an Atomic Bomb was not feasible and that microwave weapons (a death ray called "ku-go" was something they were trying to make work) were the way to go. There are records of experiments on "monkies" which are actually thought to be POWs. They also had unit 731 which was researching bio warfare.
Thats what I meant, but I guess my comment didn't really convey that did it.
Thanks for picking up my slack comradesomo
A captured fighter pilot, under torture, when interrogated about the bomb, stated the US had in its possession 100 Atomic Bombs and Tokyo was next! Marcus McDilda, P-51 Pilot Who Fooled the Japanese About the Atomic Bomb:
First Lieutenant Marcus McDilda’s P-51 Mustang was shot down off the coast of Japan on August 8, 1945, two days after the atomic bomb exploded over Hiroshima. The Japanese fished McDilda out of the water, blindfolded him and paraded him through the streets of Osaka. He was attacked and beaten by a mob of angry civilians before he was taken to the headquarters of Japan’s brutal secret police, the Kempeitai.
McDilda knew the Japanese were rumored to kill their captives, he had heard stories of their brutality and harshness. (The rumor were true).
"Marcus McDilda was a native of Florida, born and raised in Dunnellon, a small town known for its Phosphate mines. McDilda played football on the award winning six man football team of 1939 and was named All American End by American Boy magazine. He worked for the railroad in Georgia until he joined the US Army Air Force.
The Army Air Force assigned McDilda to the 46th Fighter Squadron of the 21st Fighter group. He was sent to Iwo Jima to fly missions against mainland Japan. Marcus McDilda flew P-51D 44-63901 and named his plane “The Gator” after his Florida roots.
The Japanese interrogated McDilda for hours, taking turns beating him. They asked him about his base on Iwo Jima and the capabilities of the P-51 before turning to questions about the atomic bomb. As a junior officer in a fighter squadron, Marcus McDilda knew nothing about the secrets of the atomic bomb. He told the Japanese of his ignorance but was beaten and repeatedly asked the same questions.
Around midnight, a Japanese general came in and again asked about the bomb. When McDilda could not answer, the general drew his sword and pressed the tip of it against an open wound on McDilda’s face. The general screamed that if McDilda did not tell them about the bomb, he would personally cut his head off.
The night before he was shot down, McDilda had heard one of his squadron members talk about properties that might have been used to make an atom bomb. The man was nicknamed “The Brain” because he got a doctorate in chemistry. This was enough of a base of knowledge for McDilda to make up a story.
McDilda began to talk. He played up his Florida drawl in hopes it might confuse his interrogators. He talked about pluses and minuses being split when atoms were released, and how the Americans had taken them and put them in a big box separated by a lead shield. When the box was dropped, the lead shield melted away and the positives and negatives met which resulted in a huge explosion.
The Japanese became very interested and asked him how the explosion happened. McDilda said that when the lead shield melted, it caused a lightning bolt that pushed back the atmosphere causing a thunderclap that destroys everything underneath. McDilda gave the Japanese dimensions of the bomb, and said the Americans had one hundred more. The Kempeitai asked where the next targets were and McDilda named the biggest cities he could think of, including Tokyo and Kyoto.
The Kempeitai interrogators thought they were onto something. They passed McDilda’s “information” on to the government in Tokyo. The lies about more imminent atomic bomb attacks were used as an argument for peace by Japan’s pro peace faction and might even have played a part in the Emperor’s decision to surrender.
Whether truly influencing the Emperor or not, McDilda’s story was able to get him sent to Tokyo as a prisoner of value. He eventually ended up at the Omori Prison Camp near Kamakura and survived until the end of hostilities. When the war ended he was sent to Okinawa then on to Manila before going back to the USA.
A number of history revisionists (who claim the A-Bombs weren't necessary, and also especially among Russians, claim the Soviet Invasion of Manchuria (Manchuko) was the deciding factor to sue for peace. This is not supported by Emporer's Hirohito's call for Surrender. The Jewel Voice Broadcast (玉音放送 Gyokuon-hōsō) contained the following reference to the bomb (and no other direct reference to the Soviets other than asking for Surrender):
"...Moreover, the enemy has begun to employ a new and most cruel bomb, the power of which to do damage is, indeed, incalculable, taking the toll of many innocent lives. Should we continue to fight, not only would it result in an ultimate collapse and obliteration of the Japanese nation, but also it would lead to the total extinction of human civilization.
Such being the case, how are we to save the millions of our subjects, or to atone ourselves before the hallowed spirits of our imperial ancestors?"
Cruel bomb, (McDilda fabrication of 100 Atomic Bombs and Tokyo was next) the power which is..incalculable..would..result in the ultimate collapse and obliteration of the Japanese nation..to save millions, to atone before...spirits of...imperial ancestors.
From the outset of Japan's war with the USA, the Japanese knew they could not defeat, the US; their plan was a decisive Naval Battle with infliction of high losses and negotiated treaty of peace. This morphed into infliction of high losses invading forces on Japanese territory. Which became the final battle during the invasion of Japan infliction of high losses to force a negotiated truce and treaty. The US didn't think in those terms, just as the Japanese didn't think the US and it's allies would pay any price for victory.
The US submarine force, and later Aircraft carrier task forces had effectively, eliminated the Japanese merchant fleets. The island of Japan could have been left to starve from an allied naval blockade. Japan's military hawks in control of the civilian Govt. prepared to fight to the last man to save face. Fortunately, the Peace Faction prevailed in the end with the Emperor's influence.
There was an attempt to steal the broadcast record, a military coup to capture the emperor, and a failed attack at the end of August to prevent the surrender from occurring, to fight on despite the command and wishes of the Emperor.
The US planned for an Invasion, as 1 million US military lives were cheaper than the other option, "nuclear cauterization" also known as bombing the Japanese back to the stone age, however LeMay's fire bombing of Tokyo March 9-10 destroyed more lives and a larger area than the Uranium Bomb of Hiroshima or the Plutonium Bomb of Nagasaki, and building more Atom Bombs besides those being made ready or would be available subsequently for the Japanese invasion in 1946.
The Japanese Navy, Army, and Civilian Government had separate Atomic Programs (yes, they wanted to make an Atomic Bomb or at least Dirty Bombs). Don't think for one minute had they solved the problem of fissionable material, that they wouldn't have used an A-Bomb on the allies. The Japanese used Germ Warfare, Poison Gas, and would have no resistance as to its use.
Renshen1957 Neat story, thanks for sharing!
The Japanese understood basic nuclear theory. Lol
As good as the story is, I seriously doubt McDilda influenced Japanese decision-making in any way. Why would Japanese military intel think that a common fighter pilot would know high-level military secrets such as nuclear bomb numbers and upcoming targets?
@@anderskorsback4104 The Japanese wouldn't have interrogated him under torture and asked him about the bomb after his capture on 08/08/1945, and instead of killing him, standard procedure for aviation pilots, they made him a strategic prisoner in essence a VIP. What some believed was his mulitple (100 A-bombs). Some in the Japanese Govt. believed the USA had only one A-Bomb, though the day after McDilda's capture the 2nd bomb was dropped. Dr. Yoshio Nishina, a close associate of Niels Bohr, was sent to Hiroshima to confirm that the bomb dropped was atomic. The Japanese knew about the A-bomb Masatoshi Okochi, director of NIKEN, submitted a report on "Possibility of Uranium Bomb Manufacturing" in May 1941.The IJN, IJA, and the Imperial Japanese Govt. had three atomic programs to develop nuclear weapons during World War II. There was the the "dirty bomb" story associated with the alleged plan of Japanese Submarine seaplanes in US markings (subsequently jettisoned) with I-400-class submarine to attack the US Fleet, ahead of or instead of the original intended Biological Warfare Operation Cherry Blossom attack on San Diego, CA scheduled for 09/45
McDilda fabricated an explanation on how the bomb worked which had nothing to do with physics of atomic weapons. His explanation, "when atoms are split, there are a lot of pluses and minuses released. Well, we've taken these and put them in a huge container and separated them from each other with a lead shield. When the box is dropped out of a plane, we melt the lead shield and the pluses and minuses come together. When that happens, it causes a tremendous bolt of lightning and all the atmosphere over a city is pushed back! Then when the atmosphere rolls back, it brings about a tremendous thunderclap, which knocks down everything beneath it" He was sent to Tokyo where the next interrogator saw through his falsehood, The interrogator quickly realized McDilda knew nothing of nuclear fission and was giving fake testimony. McDilda explained that he had told his Osaka questioners that he knew nothing, but when that was not accepted, he had to "tell the lie to stay alive"
Some people just don't know when to give up...
My father-in-law was a gunner's mate aboard battleship USS New Jersey.
He saw a lot of combat.
After 31 days off Okinawa, which was a slaughterhouse, the ship was called home to Bremerton for badly needed repairs and upgrades because an invasion of Japan was next.
The crew got shore leave.
When the work was completed, and the ship emerged into the pacific to head back to the war zone, he stood at the rail and watched the coast of Washington recede into the distance.
He believed that he was probably getting his last look at America.
When he heard about the 2nd bomb, and that Japan had decided to call it quits, it was one of the happiest days of his life.
American military estimated that we would of loss 2 to 3 million soldier's if we would of invaded Japan Truman was advised about there reports and lead to him signing the order to drop the bombs on Japan to try and make them surrender
There was no need, they worked flat out on the atomic bomb, in order to have it finished whilst there were still some targets left. Japanese buildings mostly had timber frames to withstand earthquakes. This also made Japanese cities very combustible, and many were burnt to the ground with a fraction of the bombs required to seriously damage a European city.
@@markhorton8578 yes there was. The Japanese didnt worry about conventional bombing. To them, that was just another reality of war. A new kind of weapon was needed. It wasnt the effects that scared them.. it was the sheer show of force and advanced technology that was put on display for Japan to see.
@@landonwood3977 Well they didn't fim it to see it, and after the event a city flattened by a massive incendiary/high explosive bombing looks pretty much the same as one flattened by a A bomb.
The reality was that they had nowhere to live, nowhere to make the machinery of war, not to mention supplies needed for daily life.
They had looked forward to an American invasion, where incredibly top military still believed they could defeat the USA.
It was then that they finally realised that the USA didn't need to invade to defeat Japan.
They could obliterate it from the relative safety of the sky. By conventional or Atomic means.
@@markhorton8578 not true! The battle damage assessment from conventional bombings compared to atomic bombings is DRASTICALLY different.
@@markhorton8578 there was also survivors who reported it was no ordinary bomb.
When you say "Not a single Japanese Unit surrendered", what exactly do you mean by "unit"? Company, Battalion, Regiment, Division, or something else?
Also, thank you for the video.
Usually unit is referred to as a company or battalion, mostly company. When asked what unit someone in theyd say bravo 1-5 cav. Or 410th mp company. Or hhc, 1st id or whatever ( one of these are units i was in...)
Its always at the company level. Sometimes you might just say your bn but that was very rare
The fact is that no Japanese unit of any size (to include the ones you listed above) surrendered until after Hirohito's surrender speech.
Fascinating.
As a side note without the influence of Brigadier General Fellers the Showa emperor would have been tried for war crimes as he was taken off the protected list in 1946. Gen Douglas MacArthur tasked Brig Gen Fellers to find evidence to help exonerate the Showa emperor. Historian Herbert P. Bix wrote an amazing book in 2002 titled Hirohito about this subject
It was mainly MacArthur himself who was also an advocat to keep the Emperor during wartime
In conclusion, boom and boom.
I think the Japanese would have rather surrendered to the Americans than the Soviets. We allowed them to keep their Emperor, although be it, he looked more like a mortal man than a god.
But they never surrendered to anyone until after the Emperor commanded them to give up.
KillerKane0 and then the Emperor went back to his passion for marine biology.
+Pestilence Plauge+ and gardening
The soviets wouldve executed anyone remotely related to the emperor, executed every commanding officer, throw just about 80% of the japanese army (regular citizens who were drafted) into labor camps and probably forced communist ideas on the entire country (much like how allies forced capitalist ideas)
JarvisTheFirst capitalists ideas seems to have worked out for them.
One of the factors very few people consider is that Harry Truman was a Combat Veteran of WWI in Field Artillery right behind the Trenches and had gone forward several times as a Forward Observer. Another factor is that Truman had gotten reports while at the Potsdam Conference about the Soviet travel through Eastern Europe and East Germany and the Soviets had declared war on Japan and was moving troops East to an Island they held from the Russo/Japanese War.
Harry Truman, knowing at least 1,000,000 Americans would be killed with an invasion based on loses on Okinawa then made the decision to use those play pretties on Japan.
A little note here - How many know that Korea is the last piece of WWII?
This is a critical moment in modern history, why didn't you cover this earlier?
I can already hear them. "But... But muh Soviets!"
Japan surrender because the Emperor actually had sense enough to know that it was a lost cause and that the odds were against them. Yes the Soviets helped somewhat, as their additional forces just added to the bad odds. But think, two cities were wiped off the face of the Earth in an instant with no ideas as to how many bombs the U.S. had with an additional approaching invasion of the mainland which was already planned before the additional Soviet forces threw their hat in the ring. The Soviets jumping onboard is kinda vastly overshadowed by this, and they're inclusion did nothing more then to add numbers to the ranks of possible invaders the Japanese already knew were coming.
I don't know, from what I've researched, the Soviets were the main threat. They feared atomic weapons, but at that point, the Emperor and military council had been trying to surrender conditionally for over a month. They caused less damage than some of the firebombings, and Japan wasn't as influenced by destruction as much. Not that they didn't fear them, but with the Soviets on the other hand, they opened up another front to them, and they really didn't have the strength to get involved in it. The Soviets had very quickly defeated their largest fighting force. It was the Soviets that made Japan's military council meet up in the first place for surrender.
@@tjs2014 The Soviets defeated large Japanese formations in Manchuria after the Imperial council decided to approach the allies about surrendering on August 10. The Soviets didn't defeat Japanese forces and allies in one day, nor in 5 days. Soviet advances to places like Mukden, Hsinking, Kaigan, Jehol (Chengde), etc. took place between August 15 and August 19.
@Wuanslm What is with the weird lettering? Destruction of a city by one plane was unprecedented. And guess what, the Japanese had photography from the ground level, of the bombing of Hiroshima, from the Kure base nearby, making clear that the source of destruction came from a single event. Most people don't realize that, but quite a bit of footage like that exists, such as in the displays at the Peace Museum in Hiroshima.
@@tjs2014 One bomb flattening an entire city is a very different thing to mass air raids. It was the ultimate futility. ie in the mass bombing some US aircraft would be shot down Americans killed ect. But with the nukes america suffered no damage struck without warning and inflicted horrific casualties the physiological impact can not be overstated.
I take the opposite view of the Russian advancement in to Asia. Every single talk with the U.S. demanded the Emperor remain and Japan retain all of it's original land and no occupying forces. This would not be possible with Russia. Russia had left no leadership in place anywhere they took possession. Russia did not cede back one inch of territory it had won and occupied. Russia held on to the age old European thought that any land taken by war is now mine. Remember, Poland, Balkans etc. and later the Berlin wall. Russia kept all of eastern Europe it took from the Nazi's. Japan had seen this. If Russia were involved in an invasion of Japan, it would never allow the Emperor to remain, Russia would permanently keep any Japanese territory it won, there would be permanent military troops and occupation on their island. This is just historical fact. Japan saw Russia entering the war as a permanent loss in the future, not just a loss of today's war. Japanese leadership could not tolerate the thought of part of their islands would be a permanent Russian territory with troops into the foreseeable future. Their only option was to surrender to the U.S. who had never laid permanent claim to any territory won in the war. Japan got what it wanted from the U.S. they never would have gotten any of it from Russia. Japan as the Japanese knew it would cease to exist, maybe forever if Russia ever invaded Japan. Picture a split Germany or Korea, that would have been Japan's future had the Russian's invaded. Japan took it's only viable option, surrender to the U.S. before an invasion was possible.
There was another video/question on whether blockade would work instead of atomic bomb. I think you have answered this yourself, no it won't. Blockade would have lasted for a few more years and the Japanese Army still wouldn't surrender, because they care little about civilian population, only about their self esteem and honour.
You underestimate the civilian population's ability - and will - to support the war effort.
Absolutely no. Japan does not nearly produce enough food to sustain their population. In August 1945 it was on the brink of starvation due to the destruction of the merchant navy. This is also quite common knowledge by anyone who has ever read a scientific book on this topic.
And yet Japan's leaders continued to resist the Allies. If anything, their desperate situation made them more radical in defying the Allies.
This was a generation (may be even 2 or 3 since modernisation) of young officers brought up in believing in their superiority, failure or surrender was simply not in their dictionary. After all these years, even today, some quarters of the Japanese elite only accept defeated by American because of technology and industrial might, not because of their own wrong doing. There was a coup attempt right before the surrender announcement, despite a no-hope future. So do you think these people would care about their own civilian and how many more would have died if war continue? Even Hilter had the same mentality when he tried to defend Berlin, but at least he had the decency to shoot himself.
While you say 'not a single Japanese unit had surrendered' until the Emperor called for it, I believe William Slim mentioned a company-strength unit surrendering during one phase of the Burma Campaign, after a shock bayonet charge from the flank. Of course, the fact that this warranted special mention is evidence of the rarity of this sort of event, and Japanese units were on the whole not disposed to surrender. (At the Battle of Tsushima back in 1905, the Japanese Navy didn't even have surrender in their signal books).
Do the Katyusha Rocket truck next! :)
What I'd like to know is where the origin of the story of Japan being on the verge of surrender and the US just dripped nukes "for the lulz"
It started in Academia in the 1960's by liberal college professors who did not like history as it was currently taught - in other words they wanted to make the US look bad. Later the "it was because of the Soviets" was added to the mix. Recent works by historians such as Richard Frank have refuted this but it has taken root in some academic circles and is still widely believed by some to this day.
@@deplorable_bitter_clinger7482 Many of those same professors were open admirers of the Soviet Union during the existential struggle that was the Cold War. Traitors.
US Strategic Bombing Survey issued a report stating black on white Japan would have surrendered anyway. This was the months just after surrender.
It is controversial since the day it was released.
@@FlagAnthem This is a good answer
I'm very much interested in hearing about this attempted coup to stop the Emperor's surrender broadcast.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ky%C5%ABj%C5%8D_incident
Danke sehr gut.
Thank goodness we didn't have a mainland sized version of Iwo Jima. Yes, there would have been improvements to proximity weapons but still, they may have waited on bombs 3, 4, etc.
The Japanese always spoke about honor but how can you honor when you sneak attack a people without a declaration of war
"Honor" is usually a very empty word in war.
Honor lives among soldiers, not enemies.
Japanese fave declaration of war 30 minutes before Pearl Harbor.
or commit atrocities like unit 731.
@太邪太恶了犹太佬 bs. you apologist.
1-2-3 punch. Hiroshima especially followed quickly by Nagasaki and having to deal with a Russian invasion where bloodletting wouldn’t be as effective was too much for any country to handle.
No USSR invasion of mainland Japan, how were they going to get there. USSR had no navy, no amphibious ability. Were they going to walk on water?
What else would these men, who had committed their lives to wars of annihilation, have done?
"Duty is a Mountain, Death is a feather" The military was comfortable with death and even had the additional samurai ethic reinforcing that comfort. The Japanese soldiers were like the Gem'Hadar in the Deep Space 9 tv series.
There is a "documentary" on netflix called "untold history of the United States." Which wholeheartedly disputes this view. I would like to hear your debunk it.
It was produced by Oliver Stone. There, I just debunked it.
Back, and to the left. Back, and to the left. lol
No you didnt. There is by the way not a single credible modern asian historians (you know - the ones who can read the source material ;) ) who supports the view of this video.
There is enough room for interpretation and the abombs did play a role in the surrender but omitting the soviets, omitting the complete destruction of the trade marine (which Japan needed to survive and continue the war), the crumbling Japanese moral and claiming the Japanese knew they could keep their emperor (which is easily disproofed) is just badly researched.
Then you don't understand the argument being made in the video. The bombing gave the Japanese Emperor the imperitive to get the war council to agree to his request to surrender. Nowhere in the video are the above issues discounted as playing a role in the Emperor's and Suzuki's thinking. Even Japanerse historian Hasegawa says he can't discount the use of the Bombs as the primary cause of surrender.
I think one factor leading to peace was Russia entering the war in the east.
some say it was actually fear of the russians that made them surrender
@@shmetlh5047
The Japanese were actually fear more of the Russian re-initiate their war against them rather than the American approaching on their soil.
@@nogisonoko5409 no evidence of that in the records.The Soviet invasion placed in doubt what were once secured areas on the Asian mainland, like Manchuria, northern Korea, northern China. But the simple fact was, the navy was rendered useless, the home islands left pretty vulnerable to massive air attacks, aside from a few routes a blockade was tightening via ships and mines and submarines, and massive shortages were occurring that raised fears of social disturbances.
Japan: "we will sacrifice millions"
Russia: "we can oblige"
@@michaeldunne338 yeah
Hey a question about the Soviet pacific command as of the concussion of the Manchuria conquest. What were their plans for attacking the IJA/IJN/IJAF. I would believe that a US or UK supported invasion of Hokkaido. Followed by an attack on Aomori in support of coronet would be their goal with annexation of Hokkaido as a condition of surrender.
The Soviets lacked sufficient shipping to accomplish a landing on the Japanese home islands. They barely managed to get a handful of units on to Sakhalin Island. the only way the Soviets could have occupied part of Japan is if the western Allies used their ships to bring them across the Sea of Japan. But this is irrelevant because the whole notion of fearing Soviet intentions developed long after Japan's surrender, not before.
An estimated 7,000 Japanese troops surrendered at the end of the Okinawa Campaign which was the first time that large numbers of enemy combatants surrendered after any battle in the Pacific theater .
not a single unit surrendered???
then what about the surrender to the aussies of an Japanese army battalion???
(3rd May 1945, oft referred to as the Takenaga incident)
One battalion, maybe 300 men, out of a total Japanese force of 5 million?
the point that was made, relating to the state and mindset of japan was the to really impress on that japan would not surrender was "not a single unit surrendered"
which is simply not true, and I provided a date in which that can be confirmed (as it is often thought as true no unit surrendered)
your point was more a " yeah so, thats just a small portion"
that misses the whole point that there is an inaccuracy in the "truth"
While that's true, it's only fair to point out that the battalion was actually a tiny, starving remnant of 42 men from several different units, half of whom had no rifles, who were a good thousand miles behind the main front and had been completely isolated for a year before they surrendered. What's amazing is that they held out as long as they did.
oh yeah, and more surprising they were not killed, as the allies kinda had a no prisoners mindset due to the, so who knows how many soldiers tried to surrender
Jeremy Sims yup like onoda
Man we should have glassed the whole place to teach those old men the price of their “pride”
First bomb: Ha! That was nothing! We will still fight on, no surrender!
Second bomb: Oh shit. Maybe let's reconsider. Maybe...
Second bomb: 'We'll call it a draw then'? (the 'black knight' sketch from 'Monty Python and the Holy Grail')
To azalru - A 2009 blog post by Giangreco, slightly shortened below and containing his outtakes from the original edition of Hell to Pay, should answer your question:
Giangreco: The plan approved by Truman was for a target set of four major cities relatively untouched by conventional bombing -- Niigata, Kokura, Nagasaki, and Hiroshima -- to be struck in succession as the bombs became available. Kyoto had twice been added to this list and was removed each time by War Dept. Secretary Henry Stimson because it was a cultural and spiritual center. After the first two bombs and Soviet entry into the war, communications were initiated by the Japanese and both nuclear and conventional strategic bombing was suspended. Communications from the Japanese, however, suddenly stopped.
[Hell to Pay] “Initial elation among the US military and civilian leadership turned into apprehension as they waited throughout a tense weekend for a response. By the morning of Monday the 13th, it was beginning to look like the “shock” of atom bombs obliterating two of Japan's major industrial cities, even when combined with the Soviet declaration of war, had failed in its strategic purpose of loosening the iron grip that the country's militarists had on Japanese decisionmaking. At this point, Truman and his senior advisors had had enough, and just after 9:00 a.m., Marshall cabled MacArthur and the strategic bombing chief in the Pacific, General Spaatz: ‘The President directs that we go ahead with everything we've got.’ The hold on B-29 operations was now lifted, and orders were issued to drop over Japanese population centers the 5,000,000 leaflets containing the Potsdam Declaration --- and, most importantly, the Japanese government acceptance --- that Office of War Information personnel on Saipan had begun printing two days earlier as a contingency.” [End]
Because it was not known how the Japanese militarists would react to the “twin shocks” of nuclear bombing and Soviet entry, invasion preparations had proceeded as scheduled and Marshall considered proposing a change in the nuclear strategy:
[Hell to Pay] “The very real possibility that the Japanese intransigence or indecision was about to scuttle peace efforts now galvanized Marshall to prepare for Stimson's consideration a plan for the use the full range of weapons in America's arsenal --- today referred to as weapons of mass destruction (WMDs) --- to trump the human tide welling up on Kyushu. . . .
“Concurrent with President Truman's August 13 directive to resume the strategic bombing campaign, Marshall that morning had General Hull personally check into the precise status of current and future atom bomb production. Although only two of the four Japanese cities in the approved atom bomb target set and had yet been struck, Marshall, desired to retain all future bombs, perhaps as many as eight completed by November, for tactical use on Kyushu. This would have cut short the bombing of cities which was central to Stimson’s strategy of using the bombs principally as a psychological weapon that might stampede the Japanese government into an early surrender.” [End]
At the time it was thought that up to eight bombs would be a available by the invasion of Kyushu but various knowledgeable parties within the Manhattan Project thought this number too conservative and later voiced opinions that the actual number could have been twice this many. The Army’s initial tactical planning examined the use of nine; three on or near each invasion zone and Giangreco discussed the “hideous consequences” of tactical use during the invasion:
[Hell to Pay] “A more complete appreciation of the dangers posed by nuclear radiation was still in the future, and millions of Japanese -- and Americans -- on Kyushu and close by at sea would have been affected by the tightly packed set of perhaps nine detonations in a triangle-shaped zone roughly analogous to the area bounded by Newport, Rhode Island, Worcester, Massachusetts, and Boston. The emperor’s surrender broadcast on August 15, 1945, effectively ended any need for Marshall and his staff to pursue the initiative.” [End]
So, azalru, in terms of contemporary planning, the answer ranges from two to nine.
No Japanese unit surrendered before the Emperor's declaration? On Okinawa they started willingly surrendering en-masse. Were those not whole units and just a large number of guys that all decided to at once?
Just like the radical indoctrination of Isis today, the Samurai code of Bushido was so ingrained in the culture to make the ultimate sacrifice for the country and emperor. If the terms of surrender didn't let Hirohito go, they'd probably keep fighting. Hell, isolated soldiers on rural Philippine islands refused to believe the surrender and continued to fight and kill locals well into the 70's.
Blah, units do not "disintegrate". They simply get smaller. Look up the retreat and reformation of the Grossland Division (Germany)
Blah. If you are the last remaining troop in your unit, then you _are_ the unit. More precisely, you become the unit's acting commanding officer.
Do not forget that a unit can be as small as a fire team and still be classified as a unit. Thus, the claim that no Japanese units surrendered is blatantly false. Unless you mean that no Japanese regimental units surrendered -- then you're correct, no large regimental units or divisional units ever surrendered. They didn't fight like, say, the Wehrmacht.
+Dylan Wight
Well, if you're not talking out of your arse and ignoring the entire concept of organisation, morale and rout while promoting some Hollywood "Nobody ever give up, even to the last man" bullshit, then show us all the huge list of Japanese units that surrendered.
How many fireteams survived Okinawa? How many fireteams survived Iwo Jima? How many vessels were present in Tokyo Bay when the accords were signed? There is your answer.
As I clarified earlier, a "unit" is a very generalized term. If you're referring *specifically* to major organizational units, then you're correct that no Japanese forces surrendered. But a fractured, disorganized division still consists of individual fireteams under the immediate command of their ranking serviceman. These fireteams are operational units.
Death before dishonor that's the kind of troops you want.
That faction that had planned a coup against Hirohito nearly succeeded too. They had planned to ambush the car carrying Hirohito's peace recording as it went through a city park at night, but it was aborted at the last second due to a night bombing raid.
The Palace coup, mentioned at the very end, is also detailed here; www.nytimes.com/2008/03/30/books/review/Thomas2-t.html