Why Rotating Out Old Comb Is Important
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- Опубликовано: 19 апр 2020
- Information on how old toxic comb can promote premature queen failure, sick brood and excessive colony loses. Discussion includes information on methods for comb rotation, toxic chemicals, and personal experiences over four decades.
References
¹Berry (2001) "Effects of comb age on honey bee colony growth and brood survivorship." www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/1....
²Johnson RM, Dahlgren L, Siegfried BD, Ellis MD (2013) Acaricide, Fungicide and Drug Interactions in Honey Bees (Apis mellifera). PLoS ONE 8(1): e54092. doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.... 
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That last part was indeed helpful for my level of beekeeping.
As a retired beekeeper, I totally agree with you vis the old comb philosophy. As a retired beekeeper (if you ever really retire), I many years ago changed the way that I kept bees, I winter with two boxes, come bud swell I add a box of starter strips and foundation, but I add this to the bottom of the stack, I then shake down the bees from the top box and add a pollen sub patty and an excluder before placing the top box back. By doing this the oldest that any frame in the hive can be is two years old, hence greatly reduced wax moth issues, and no old comb.
Thanks for the comment.
Just getting started with my first season of beekeeping. Thanks for allowing folks like me to glean from your years of accumulated wisdom. Subscribed.
Best of luck!
This is my first year.... And I received black comb and was thinking it was to dirty and old to use but was told the bees would love it... The bee farm has been in business since 1927 so I trusted his opinion but still had my doubts. He said he sends his bees to California each year for almonds. I am very happy you talked about this topic because my fear of using his black old comb was right. I only have a few frames he entered but I will be changing them out asap. Thank you very helpful info for my first year.
This was an incredible presentation. Invaluable for a new Beek. Thank you sir.
The mass of 10 thousand bees hatched in light combs will be equal to 1 kg, in brown ones - 0.838 kg, in dark ones - 0.671 kg. To obtain equal honey productivity with bees grown in light combs, it will take about 2 times more bees that hatch in combs after 10-fold hatching, and 5 times more bees grown in dark combs. To hatch 1 kg of bees in light combs, 2.5 kg of honey are consumed, in brown ones - 2.9 kg, in dark ones - 3.7 kg
Thank you for sharing your wisdom.
Damin Daling I agree. Very good video for someone like myself who had only been beekeeping for a few years.
I believe you hit the nail on the head here, Bob! Thanks for doing this video.
Thanks.
A superb presentation.
Thanks Bob.
Thanks.
Thanks Bob, please keep the videos coming....definitely consider them a must-watch
Thanks.
Thanks for taking the time to give us your hard-won insights. You are a true scientist/businessman.
Great advice, thanks for sharing.
Bob, thank you so much for posting this video.
My pleasure!
Great close up photos...those thickened cell walls tell it all. Many thanks for this post!
Glad you enjoyed it
Recently discovered your channel and I am learning so much. Thank you!
I'm glad it's helpful.
thanks- sounds like good principle to include in my system
The point about the immediate transfer of possible harmful compunds into the honey when using a hot knife to open the cells is great information. Thanks again for your time and for sharing your experience with us.
Great subject Bob, and as always very well said, thank you for sharing your knowledge and years of experience with the bee keeping world.
Love the new camera lens the detail in those pictures is outstanding wow!
Keep up the good work and stay safe ( social distancing )
Thank you.
Great video Bob, thanks for all the information!
Thank you.
Once again BOb, you made another great educational point that i feel most do not think of. Thank you for sharing your knowledge with us. Im learning more and more each year.
Thanks.
I look forward to your videos. Your presentation and information are top notch.
Thanks.
Very Interesting, Thanks for the well delivered information, also great photos, the cross cut section of the old comb is self evident of your discussion on smaller bees! Thank You, Best of luck with your bee season.
Thank you.
I've never seen such a wisdom .. God bless you..
Great video Bob! You did a wonderful job explaining various chemicals, how the interact on brood comb and the impact to the bees. As a hobbyist approaching sideliner beekeeper I value years of experience and appreciate you taking the time to share. Thank you!
Thanks.
Thank you Bob!
Great video Bob thanks
Thanks.
Very helpful information.
I run about 2000 colonies and I just have to say thank you for getting the info out by making these videos really like them
Thanks.
Very good information, Bob. Thank You!!
Thanks.
Just came across your video and boy did you ever help me out !! Went from 42 hives last fall to one this spring. Never would have dreamed changing types of mite control would have bit me that hard.
Glad it was helpfull.
Very important video , thank you for making it . Take care and be safe .
Thanks.
I’m new to beekeeping and that was one of the most informative videos I’ve watched. Thank you.
Thanks.
Great info thanks for sharing!
Great information! Thanks Bob!!
Thank you.
Not sure why but I missed this vid, most interesting and thank you Bob, I am a retired commercial beekeeper, and some years back I changed my basic practice in order to get rid of old brood comb, I only have one sized box, full deeps. It suites me to winter in two deep boxes, here in Australia because we have some winter honey and pollen because the native trees tend to flower mid winter. At bud swell i add an extra box of starter strips to the bottom of each hive, I then shake out the top box before adding an excluder and replacing the old top box, I then wait three weeks and just as the blossoms are bursting i remove the top box and replace it with a new box of starter strips, this is my spring honey super. all the frames in the hive are now a max 2 years old, and I will have fresh new wax with the new seasons honey in it.
Whoo Bob, I was feeling good that I actually made a double screened bottom board and used it! 😊
Missed having you at the Forsyth Meeting. Appreciate you sharing your knowledge
Thanks
Great information, it closes the gaps in a lot of unanswered questions in beekeeping today.
Thanks
Excellent video!! Really enjoying your channel all the way from wales in the U.K. 😊🏴
Thank you.
I’ve had a frame in my hive of a swarm I caught in June... the bees wouldn’t do anything with it, I finally removed it! Thanks for the video!
Great video! Thank you for sharing your knowledge.
Thank you
That's some very good information right there. Thanks for sharing.
Thanks.
There is some great information in this video! Although I have yet to start beekeeping, I do plan to in the near future. In the meantime, I'm learning as much as I can absorb from videos like this one. THANK-You for sharing this video!
Thanks for watching.
Long-term observations of the Research Institute of Beekeeping show that bees from families with a nest mainly from old dark combs collect 40-47% less honey than families with high-quality combs
Great video Bob !!
Thanks.
Bob, that macro lens resulted in some great, informative photos at the end of your presentation. When I first encountered black comb, my bees would not deposit any honey in the cells, and that's when I knew it was a problem. Your tip about moving the black comb in the spring is the advice I've sought for a long time, thanks!
Thank you.
Thank you for the video. You are the best.
Thanks, glad you liked it.
Many many thnx to u.keep informed us.😊
Bob, thank you so much for posting this video. I like you, have been advocating for a number of years that comb culling is essential for healthy beekeeping. It amazes me the amount of pushback I've had over the years. Thanks again, HONEY B GUYS
Thanks
Makes sense in nature the hive would move,not stay in same home(box) for years and years.
Thank you Mr. Binnie for this in depth educational video concerning aged comb. I'm a hobbyist beekeeper in North, GA and watching your channel has increased my knowledge immensely. I look very forward to possibly meeting you when I come up to visit your store in Lakemont, GA. Your demeanor, teaching skills, and knowing you have 40+ years experience command respect from anyone in my opinion, be it hobbyist, sideliner, or commercial operator. Realizing this is a VERY busy time of year for you, again I sincerely appreciate you taking your valuable time to help those like me who seek out great, tried and true beekeeping information. Rodney 😃
Thank you.
Very much appreciated. Seldom discussed as a management tool.
Thanks.
GREAT INFO,,COOL PICS for the curious,,,In the wild they swarmed an made new homes so the theory of changing out old comb an they grow better i think is true,,,im replacing my beekeepers nuc frames,,clean them for late summer flow
Thanks for making such a great video.
Glad you liked it.
Great info and video. With my MS degree I learned about chemistry and all that stuff but never thought about how that would apply to comb. I agree that there is no magic number of years that we should reuse comb, but if I was going to the orchards I would hope that I'd recycle my comb sooner than if I was in the mountains away from ag chemicals. It was great to get a new video it's been so long and you always have so much info that you share. Wish you had more time to share. I built a double screen board for my bees because of your info shared. Take care and keep the bees flying.
Thanks.
Thanks for video.i think your right on. Some thing we over look. But will pay close attention to. And try to rotate out.thanks bob. Look forward to your videos. And your knowledge
Thank you.
Very interesting and informative. I never miss a Bob Binnie video. Thanks Bob 👍👍🐝🐝
Thank you.
Very good points.
Thanks
Mr Binnie, I find all your videos to be some of the best on RUclips. I've been told by others you can keep old comb for twenty plus years and the bees prefer it. I purchased several nuc's years back and ended up with a lot of old black comb and the bees did poorly until I replaced the frames. It just goes to show you you can't believe everything you hear. I'm retiring this year from a lifetime in telecommunications. I currently manage just under twenty five colonies and I am hoping to expand to seventy five production hives in the near future. Wish I started this many years ago. I just love working with these little creatures!!
It's a great sideline business. Good luck.
Very informative. Thank you
Thanks.
I have watched all your videos. Am a PhD. I find super great info.
Good insight. Thank you.
Thanks.
From Athens, Ga. Thank you for making these videos! You are a blessing from God.
Glad you like them!
Nothing better than new comb....fresh is best! Thanks. Keep them coming!
More on my mind. Just have to get the time.
Well done 👍🏻 as always...
Thanks.
Great video Bob thanks buddy, I only gasvap my bees and I’m glad I do now 🇬🇧👍
Wow. That give year old come looks bad, but that comb of an unknown age looks looks like it came from an old egyptian tomb.
Very cool closeup shots with that macro lens!
Thanks for this video.
Thanks.
Marion Ellis helped me understand beekeeping as a teenager in nebraska. Getting back into bees after 30 year break.
He's a great person.
That was a fantastic video thanks a lot I’m in U.K. and only gasvap me bees and glad I do now 👍🇬🇧
Hi buddy , great information about bees. Thnx a lot
Thanks.
Think you for the Video
Fully agree with you I dont keep old combs in my hives
You will get it down on your queens. Great work.
I want to thank u for the videos u make they are great I just made me 3 of them devider boards for 8 frame hives I had to do splits today put 2 queen cell in each a swarm I just cought a month ago if fixen to swarm again it is the breed they swarm them selves to death they did so good it was unreal the mother hive is struggling the nector flow is on and is going to be over in june and they want to swarm. I just wanted to say thank u u do a great job
Thanks.
I had a suspicion that in Australia, at least in Victoria, we have experienced this. My strategy was always to move the darker comb to the top 3rd or 4th box. This means that those comb see the extractor more often and last less longer as a result.
Now that I have watched this video I will cease that system and ditch the bad ones. I don't use plastic foundation, so replacing the foundation is a bit of time but now I see it is worth it.
Thanks for sharing the knowledge..
Thanks for the comment.
Makes a lot of sense, I have been treating hives with oxalic acid vapors for the third year, it doesn’t leave residue and is organic 100%
Excellent video, thanks! Beautiful photos, what is the lens you are using?
Canon 28mm macro. Some of the photos were made closer in editing.
Cool shots with your camera!
Thanks.
Great video Bob. So just a couple days ago I did a video and have still to edit it, on whether old comb will also affect a laying pattern. I have been in a hive where an old comb had a bad pattern, yet a frame or two over she had a great pattern. Just got me to thinking about cell wall size being built up, along with small bees, and whether it could affect the laying pattern. So I have this hive that is getting up to about 5 years and the brood is rough. Plenty of solid eggs, but the bees are yanking a lot of larvae out and leaving it very spotty. Yea, most likely the queen, but I figured I'd try and see what happens with some newer comb and some foundation to be drawn. So who knows. Going to try it a few times as I see spotty patterns in old comb. Had a poisoning 2 years ago and lost most my hives and this one survived. So a lot of the comb in my boxes isn't terribly old, but I am planning to implement a rotation next year with some of the older stuff. Low Ag down here in SE Louisiana, so I think I am doing ok for now with regard to toxicity, but it's building everyday and I want to get a jump on a rotation plan, and this video is motivating me more. I think a good window is 7 to 10 years for me. By the way, love y'alls store. Been there a couple times and cleaned you out of some hive top feeders a few years back and some of your retired entrance feeders. Visit that area with friends from my hometown south of Valdosta. Thanks.
Thanks for the comment. Seven to ten years sounds plenty good in your case.
I've subscribed , Liked every video ,and spent the last month , listening to every word ,I've Got a Older man thats been keeping for years and years and his Son , That's my age that's took me under their wings this year. The Older Gentleman isn't able to help psychically , but share ageless Knowledge , His son's been doing it since childhood , I watched him catch his first swarm this year , and then let me Catch the next one pretty much by myself with him watching . ,,, After we saw that swarm was doing good , I transported them to my house as my own and Love it . I was listening to every video i could and finally decided on your channel to stick with,,,,There's to many opinions for a new-Bee, But I live just barely east of Asheville N.C. and so we're close and Enjoy your Teaching and Knowledge ,,, I grew up working and never stopped , I can fix just about anything thats tore up , Build Houses , Plumb, wire ,,Mechanic But the world of Honey Bees is amazing,, way too much to learn ,,, in short time ,,, But I'll keep listening and learning ,,, Thank you so much for your efforts ! God Bless ya!
Thank you. There's plenty to learn. Nobody knows all there is to know about bees.
Thanks Bob, love your information sessions, been working bees for about 4 years, so this Spring seems to be the right time to start the rotation plan, I gather that Spring is the best time, what about just after the nectar run, in South Africa it is during November to middle January, this year the run was during October?
Thanks again, God bless!!
If you rotate in new foundation you will need a nectar flow to get it drawn out so spring would work best. We actually draw out a lot of new comb with sugar syrup so we can do it any time in the active season.
@@bobbinnie9872 Thanks Bob, makes alot of sense, thank you and God bless!!
I understand, that for the most part, you just rotate out the old comb and definitely agree! My question though - you said that specific one (and perhaps a few others?) were on the trash heap - does that mean you also throw out the frame? Is that also important or would it be okay to re-load the frame if it is still sound? Backyard beekeeper here, so my time is not money - just frugal! ❤️🐝🐝 in Northern IL.
And , thank you for videos! I have watched almost all and more than once!
Two reasons we throw frames away are because we want to have nice looking frames in the nucs we sell and because there would be a financial cost in labor for cleaning them up so why not just replace them. I honestly don't know how toxic the wood becomes. It's probably not as bad as the wax. If I was going to keep old frames I would probably dip them in a strong bleach solution before reusing.
So if it's on plastic foundation would you scrape and reuse it or toss the whole thing. Thanks for sharing or knowledge I find it priceless.
We just replace the whole thing.
Bob, Thank you for these videos. Do you have an opinion on use of slotted rack by hobby beekeepers?
I've never used any but the theory seems sound. I've heard they are used for less draft with cold winds and extra area to cluster during swarming season. Perhaps there are more reasons.
you and I have the same vlogging camera....and macro lens it appears. Canon M50...... it has a learning curve for sure for this old salt.
Yes, I'm still learning how to use it.
Glad I found you
Very informative, thank you. How do you feel about Formic Acid as a mite treatment and do you know of any long term build up effects associated with it?
I'm not familiar with any research on this but I do know of a beekeeper that used it several times with honey supers on and he noticed a distinct influence on the taste. I have used it, and t does work on mites, but you have to be careful when you use it in regards to temperature.
I came to this channel because Kamon Reynolds recommended you very highly!
Thank you and thank you Kamon
Great and very informative video.
I really love you style... Factual, science based and professional...... But still come off as just a fellow beekeeper...... Killer Bees meets Andy Griffith! LOL
Thank you, I think.
@@bobbinnie9872 certainly meant as praise! LOL
Very helpful, well said! Would you clean up a a older plastic brood frame (if that’s possible) or just recycle it out to keep fresh frames ongoing? Thanks 👍
I honestly don't know how much, if any, toxins a plastic frame would hold on to. We simply replace those too.
Bob, great vid. Being a relative newbie, I bought nucs that had very dark brood comb in them. An local bee sensei suggested bees like comb that's been lived in due to the biome they create over time. After watching you discuss the comb replacement, would it be advisable to pop the old black plastic foundation out and insert new foundation ?
Many beekeepers do that to save money on the frame but we like to replace the whole thing.
Good video. 2-3 years new comb, and no plastic. (30 hives, hobbyist)
Thank you.
Thanks for sharing your experiences and knowledge. I'm a beginner and I have a question regarding the picture of the old comb that is sliced (cross-section of a cell). As you mentioned it shows many layers, which means the cell will be getting smaller over time (correct?). Does the diminishing cell size has any effect on the health of the brood ?
The smaller cell produces smaller bees but I don't believe it correlates to poor health. However, the assorted contaminants embedded in the layers do.
I am going into my 3rd year as a hobbyist beekeeper. I learn so much from your videos and love your practical and objective coverage of topics. And I have a comb question. In your opinion, is it safe to render black brood comb and use the wax for candles? I am a little concerned that toxins in the wax could be volatilized by burning the candle and then inhaled. Any thoughts on this? Thanks.
I'm not an expert at that but I would be inclined to have the same concerns that you do. Personally I wouldn't do it.
A very informative presentation....do you throw out the old comb or can it be melted, cleaned and reused as a prep for new plastic foundation? Thank you.
We throw old dark away. I would not recommend using wax melted from old comb.
Thank you Bob...will not use it to prep new foundation.
How do you dispose of the old comb? Your video was very informative.
We throw in the dumpster, including the frame. Thanks.
I appreciate what you do as a beekeeper, I have watched all your videos and started beekeeping this year- there are some people like you on youtube who make great videos.
I know on one of your videos you said expanding fast is not a good idea but i feel like i can manage and i want to ask you about a question i cant really find a complete answer -Do you feed pollen patties in early spring and is that effective and if so how effective is it ? 10% growth 20% ? Thank you sir.
Some years we do and some we don't. It depends on the condition of the colonies. Because we don't pollinate almonds anymore or make early nucs I'm not as interested in an extra early buildup so we only use patties on small colonies to help them brood early and make it through the winter. In our area patties can be put on in early January which is at least a month before natural pollen starts coming in. If applied diligently (don't let them run out) it will result in colonies peaking two to three weeks early. This is only helpful if you intend to split or shake early packages otherwise you'll simply produce early swarming. Pollen supplement is an very effective tool if used properly.
Do you have any research on oxalic acid being synergistic with other treatments? (Brood comb)
No, I have not seen any research showing problems.
I'm curious how you know how old your plastic foundation is. Surely, the same comb-rotation argument applies to that too?
Yes. We rotate plastic foundation and frames out together. We can generally look at the frame and guess how old it is. You could also mark the frame with a queen marking pen with that years color.
Also: what are the advantages of the plastic foundation? do you have a video talking about that topic? you are great teacher. You have great technology.
We prefer the plastic foundation because it doesn't leave gaps or holes made by by the bees, it stays straight without warping or sagging and it is much more durable.
@@bobbinnie9872 Great, thanks for taking the time for answering. We are from a small town in Argentina, we have always used wire-wax foundations, but we should try new things. When combs get black we send them to a beekeeper who puts them through an extractor with vapor and caustic soda, they get really clean and then we fix them and rewire. Bees have no problem accepting them and we havent got any disease from them. its a good method for saving, we get 1,5usd per kilogram so we need to watch our expenses because we dont have that many colonies. I really like your channel. Blessings.
don't forget Arsenic is organic... great video!