Great video, thanks so much! The one apparently real example of a “cat massacre” I remember from my history studies many years ago was committed by apprentice printers in 1730s Paris. From what I remember, the apprentices did hold “trials” for the cats where they were convicted of witchcraft and subsequently killed in various horrific ways. However, (a.) this ritual killing obviously way postdates the Black Death, and (b.) it seems to have been mainly a protest by the apprentices against their poor working and living conditions, in contrast to the pampering the cats received. I haven’t read the article in a long time so I might have misremembered some details, plus it seems Robert Darnton’s interpretation of the event in his influential article isn’t without its critics.
Yes, that was an actual mass killing of cats, but it was in protest over low wages as you say. Engels refers to Darnton's book in one of his endnotes, where he tries to co-opt that actual event and connect it, tenuously, to his imaginary thirteenth century massacre by claiming there was some continuity between the two.
it's the "theme-park" approach to history: if it was before 1800 it's just a jumble, and something that was happening in the 1500s had to have been happening in the 200s: Frontierland's just a walk away from Adventureland
It was a very interesting expansion of the article in your site, and I always appreciate when a book gets debunked by showing that its references lead to nowhere (or don't even support its claims). I wished you had insisted a little more on the fact that the Black Death devastated the Muslim world as much as Europe, by quoting a scholar or even a primary source, since I think this myth rests much on the common idea that the plague was an exclusively European problem, and by showing it wasn't that alone would demonstrate the silliness and incoherence of this myth.
well done again sir. i truly enjoy your work, and note i’m a life long catholic. we all should keep an open mind to information that is factual and opinions that are supported and well reasoned. in my experience, your’s are.
I think that in Norman Cantor's book on the plague, "In the Wake of the Plague," he points out that the plague first killed off the flea's primary source of nutrition, i.e., rats, and that it was after the rats were gone that hungry fleas really began to attack humans. (I can't find the page where he says that so I may be remembering something from a different book on the plague.) Cantor also argues that there may also have been an anthrax epidemic at the same time as the bubonic plague, which would account for such high mortality.
Not an historian myself, but I enjoy your videos and articles. Haven't read them all, because I just discovered your channel and website, but will read anything of interest.
hello je suis français et j'aime beaucoup votre chaine, j'ai vue sur un site qui s'appelle acercaciencia (espagnol) Gatos brujas y peste negra qui dit les même cliché comme par exemple qu'ils avaient des massacres de chat et qu'ils aurait aggravé la peste ,même si elle a mis les "sources" ( elle cite Engels lol) je voulais savoir vous en pensez quoi ? Thank you
Islam actually has very specific prohibition against harming cats, and they had been viewed very positively in the Islamic world throughout history, so the fact Black Death spread in the Middle East all the same is pretty much conclusive evidence that whatever caused its spread, cats by themselves couldn't prevent it.
Plenty. Evolution led to Nazism. Constantine hijacked Christianity and made it pagan/Catholic. Darwin converted to Christianity on his deathbed. Halloween is pagan in origin. But I'm an atheist and I try to hold my fellow atheists to account on history.
I have a question. Since cats can catch the plague as well couldn't they have made the spread of the disease even worse, along with any other domestic mammal?
Yes. Though it seems the thing that made the 1340s outbreaks so devastating was the fact the disease was at least partially airborne and so spread easily even without animal vectors.
Sorry for posting another comment, but I've seen claims re the burning of cats in St John's Eve bonfires, now that would obviously not constitute an European wide massacre (as that would happen only once a year and apparently limited to a few communities in France), but I'd like to know if there's any truth in these claims
I’d assume that because that and his other academic work was peer reviewed and in his area of expertise, it’s probably reliable. But his Cats book has the feel of a scholar giving vent to some weird biases against a period he has not studied. So he knows how to give the illusion of scholarship, but produces nonsense.
@@historyforatheists9363 Even outside their area of expertise, I still expect a historian to show some level of critical thinking and nuance, rather than making insane extrapolations about an entire millennium based on nothing more than crude stereotypes and a handful of questionable sources. It would be a bit like a marine biologist spreading anti-vax misinformation. It’s not technically their area of expertise, but the blatant disregard for scientific principle would damage my trust in any of their work.
@Sic Semper Tyrannis Indeed. I am a Universalist (I wholly do not believe in any kind of eternal torment/hell) and if Tim O’Neill doesn’t go to Heaven I’m going to flip.
Terrier type dogs are much better at killing rats than any cat, and Europe was also full of these dogs. (Cats will kill one or two rats in a day. Dogs keep killing rats until they run out of rats. Ratting with dogs was already both a sport and a profession.) Anyway, lovely debunking, amazing what mere evidence can do. ;)
The only thing I once read about this issue is that cats helped spread the Black death from the rodents (that they hunted) and the human victims. What the eff atheists have to do with this is not made clear in this video. I call this out as BS.
"The only thing I once read about this issue is that cats helped spread the Black death from the rodents (that they hunted) and the human victims" The fact you, personally, haven't come across this myth means nothing much. Try Google. You'll find it repeated in hundreds of places. I gave examples. "What the eff atheists have to do with this is not made clear in this video. I call this out as BS." Then you need to pay better attention before commenting. The meme I show at the beginning carries the label of the "No More Make Believe" atheist Facebook group (formerly known as Atheists on Parade and they now appear to call themselves Nonsense from the Bible). Another version of it was posted to the Philosophical Atheism Facebook group. I give details here: historyforatheists.com/2017/04/cats-the-black-death-and-a-pope/ And I've seen atheists citing this "fact" for years.
Watching this as an Eastern Orthodox Christian with my Sealpoint Siamese cat on my lap, petting her!
Amazing work as always Tim! The more I learn about history, the more it humbles me. Thank you for all your efforts
A weird belief - bug good to know the sources and connections. Thank you from a Christian who really appreciates your work.
Great video, thanks so much!
The one apparently real example of a “cat massacre” I remember from my history studies many years ago was committed by apprentice printers in 1730s Paris. From what I remember, the apprentices did hold “trials” for the cats where they were convicted of witchcraft and subsequently killed in various horrific ways. However, (a.) this ritual killing obviously way postdates the Black Death, and (b.) it seems to have been mainly a protest by the apprentices against their poor working and living conditions, in contrast to the pampering the cats received.
I haven’t read the article in a long time so I might have misremembered some details, plus it seems Robert Darnton’s interpretation of the event in his influential article isn’t without its critics.
Yes, that was an actual mass killing of cats, but it was in protest over low wages as you say. Engels refers to Darnton's book in one of his endnotes, where he tries to co-opt that actual event and connect it, tenuously, to his imaginary thirteenth century massacre by claiming there was some continuity between the two.
it's the "theme-park" approach to history: if it was before 1800 it's just a jumble, and something that was happening in the 1500s had to have been happening in the 200s: Frontierland's just a walk away from Adventureland
The giant demonic toad described in Vox in Rama reminds me of Robert E. Howard's "The Black Stone"
It was a very interesting expansion of the article in your site, and I always appreciate when a book gets debunked by showing that its references lead to nowhere (or don't even support its claims). I wished you had insisted a little more on the fact that the Black Death devastated the Muslim world as much as Europe, by quoting a scholar or even a primary source, since I think this myth rests much on the common idea that the plague was an exclusively European problem, and by showing it wasn't that alone would demonstrate the silliness and incoherence of this myth.
Thank you Tim for this thorough debunking. I appreciate the time it must take you to take these tall stories apart.
well done again sir. i truly enjoy your work, and note i’m a life long catholic. we all should keep an open mind to information that is factual and opinions that are supported and well reasoned. in my experience, your’s are.
Never thought I would see Theo Von on this channel. Good fit for Tyson lol
I think that in Norman Cantor's book on the plague, "In the Wake of the Plague," he points out that the plague first killed off the flea's primary source of nutrition, i.e., rats, and that it was after the rats were gone that hungry fleas really began to attack humans. (I can't find the page where he says that so I may be remembering something from a different book on the plague.) Cantor also argues that there may also have been an anthrax epidemic at the same time as the bubonic plague, which would account for such high mortality.
Not an historian myself, but I enjoy your videos and articles. Haven't read them all, because I just discovered your channel and website, but will read anything of interest.
hello je suis français et j'aime beaucoup votre chaine, j'ai vue sur un site qui s'appelle acercaciencia (espagnol) Gatos brujas y peste negra qui dit les même cliché comme par exemple qu'ils avaient des massacres de chat et qu'ils aurait aggravé la peste ,même si elle a mis les "sources" ( elle cite Engels lol) je voulais savoir vous en pensez quoi ?
Thank you
Islam actually has very specific prohibition against harming cats, and they had been viewed very positively in the Islamic world throughout history, so the fact Black Death spread in the Middle East all the same is pretty much conclusive evidence that whatever caused its spread, cats by themselves couldn't prevent it.
Question, what historical myths are common in religious circles that are worth debunking.
Plenty. Evolution led to Nazism. Constantine hijacked Christianity and made it pagan/Catholic. Darwin converted to Christianity on his deathbed. Halloween is pagan in origin. But I'm an atheist and I try to hold my fellow atheists to account on history.
@@historyforatheists9363 could you respond to IP’s, “no, Jesus was not a failed prophet.”
I have a question.
Since cats can catch the plague as well couldn't they have made the spread of the disease even worse, along with any other domestic mammal?
Yes. Though it seems the thing that made the 1340s outbreaks so devastating was the fact the disease was at least partially airborne and so spread easily even without animal vectors.
Sorry for posting another comment, but I've seen claims re the burning of cats in St John's Eve bonfires, now that would obviously not constitute an European wide massacre (as that would happen only once a year and apparently limited to a few communities in France), but I'd like to know if there's any truth in these claims
As an atheist I had never heard that claim but I don’t do memes.
Starting to worry about my "logistics of the Macedonian army" book ...
I’d assume that because that and his other academic work was peer reviewed and in his area of expertise, it’s probably reliable. But his Cats book has the feel of a scholar giving vent to some weird biases against a period he has not studied. So he knows how to give the illusion of scholarship, but produces nonsense.
@@historyforatheists9363 Even outside their area of expertise, I still expect a historian to show some level of critical thinking and nuance, rather than making insane extrapolations about an entire millennium based on nothing more than crude stereotypes and a handful of questionable sources.
It would be a bit like a marine biologist spreading anti-vax misinformation. It’s not technically their area of expertise, but the blatant disregard for scientific principle would damage my trust in any of their work.
My adopted cat approves of this video.
I'm so glad Margaret Murray is being discredited. Her scholarship is specious and her credentials as an Egyptologist are equally suspect.
Thank you.
24:27 ah so he's a typical classical scholar then
Like Jerome himself, I fear I may not be able to reach to Heaven as I am a follower of Tim O’Neill instead of God. A Neillian, or maybe a Timian.
@Sic Semper Tyrannis Indeed. I am a Universalist (I wholly do not believe in any kind of eternal torment/hell) and if Tim O’Neill doesn’t go to Heaven I’m going to flip.
Terrier type dogs are much better at killing rats than any cat, and Europe was also full of these dogs. (Cats will kill one or two rats in a day. Dogs keep killing rats until they run out of rats. Ratting with dogs was already both a sport and a profession.) Anyway, lovely debunking, amazing what mere evidence can do. ;)
Funny how “New Atheism” promotes pseudohistory more than atheists dream religion ever could.
Religious people promote plenty of pseudo history as well, actually. It's about even.
The only thing I once read about this issue is that cats helped spread the Black death from the rodents (that they hunted) and the human victims.
What the eff atheists have to do with this is not made clear in this video. I call this out as BS.
"The only thing I once read about this issue is that cats helped spread the Black death from the rodents (that they hunted) and the human victims"
The fact you, personally, haven't come across this myth means nothing much. Try Google. You'll find it repeated in hundreds of places. I gave examples.
"What the eff atheists have to do with this is not made clear in this video. I call this out as BS."
Then you need to pay better attention before commenting. The meme I show at the beginning carries the label of the "No More Make Believe" atheist Facebook group (formerly known as Atheists on Parade and they now appear to call themselves Nonsense from the Bible). Another version of it was posted to the Philosophical Atheism Facebook group. I give details here: historyforatheists.com/2017/04/cats-the-black-death-and-a-pope/ And I've seen atheists citing this "fact" for years.