Thinking of going to grad school? Check out STELLAR, my top-rated program and the world's only empirically-validated GRE test prep system. Use the code "PSYCH" for 10% off all membership plans: stellargre.com. This the first in a series of short discussions on some of the lesser-known truths about romantic love. In this episode, I'll explain why the unobtainability of the adored is actually a core component of the experience of romantic love. It goes all the way back to the code of the chivalric knights of old, and it goes a long way toward explaining one of the more bewildering facets of romance, namely: why we seem to want what we can't have. Orion is a licensed psychologist in the state of California. Podcast available on Spotify, Instagram, Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, and others. To schedule a consultation: psychackspodcast@gmail.com Website: oriontarabanpsyd.com #attraction #love #relationships
Linda study type Four on the Enneagram of Personality Types. You're a Four. As a general rule man is a fool. When its hot he wants it cool. When its cool he wants it hot Always wanting what its not.
Once I asked a couple I know: "How do you keep love strong after all those years?" They answerd: "We treat each other the same way we did when we were dating." They celebrated 42 years together. They are still romantic. He brings her flowers. She draws heart with his name on her notes. Romance makes them both happy and their relationship sweet.
Why Do We Want the People We Cant Have? 9 Reasons I am sure we can all remember being a child and wanting something our parents said we could not have, yet after being denied, we wanted it even more. Consider this, you have a teenage daughter and as a parent you really dislike her bad boy boyfriend, however, the more you try to discourage the relationship the more she seems to want to be with him. The same response can occur with adults. Unfortunately, despite continual discouragement and rejection, some adults cannot seem to get the idea of being with an individual who is not interested in them out of their mind. The more he/she rejects you and the more forcefully he/she indicates that they do not want to be with you, the more desirous you seem to become. Previous research conducted on dating, relationships, and rejection suggests being rejected can lead to increased yearning and the feeling of being hooked, sort of like the thrill of the chase. Romantic rejection can lead to increased yearning because it stimulates parts of the brain associated with motivation, reward, addiction, and cravings. New research also suggests the reasoning individuals fall for the unavailable may actually be scientific, some people cant help it. Some people are drawn to the unknown, the unpredictability of dating, or being in a relationship with someone who appears to be different from them. Most of us are familiar with the nice guy or sweet girl who is always mindful of our feelings, goes above and beyond to make us happy, and as luck would have it, he or she is interested in a relationship with us. However, they dont seem to present any excitement for us, actually they are kind of boring - at least to us. Ironically, the bad boy or girl occupies significant time and space in our minds. I would be remiss if I didnt acknowledge the bad boy and bad girl may not necessarily be bad people, perhaps just not right for us. He or she may have a love-them and leave-them attitude, is in another relationship, is not emotionally available, does not value us or our opinions as we do theirs, is not honest or trustworthy, sends out mixed signals, etc. Yet, we cannot seem to stop thinking about them. Some people might argue the reason we pursue what we cannot have is rooted in loss. However, this is not necessarily the case as we never had it to begin with. Often when we want something or someone, we fantasize about it, bending it and twisting it into the thing or person we want. We begin to ascribe characteristics of value that may not be possessed by the person of interest. We can be madly in love with someone who doesn’t want us, and never wanted us, but the situation can sometimes be as painful as someone breaking up with us. Another theory is that of anxiety and distress as we begin to question why he or she does not want to be with us, what is it that we are lacking? 9 Reason Why We Want What We Cannot Have Include: We are excited about the thrill of the chase We believe if by being accepted by the individual we desire it will add value to us or validate us It will satisfy our ego We struggle with low self-esteem We are attracted to the unknown or unpredictability of the other person We want to fulfill a fantasy We want to prove to ourselves and others we deserve to have them We unconsciously placed superhuman characteristics on our object of desire The less the person reciprocates, the more time we tend to invest trying to get the person to reciprocate So, when you want someone whom you simply cannot have, the best thing to do is relax, step back, and really think about why you want to be with this person that is not interested in you. Do you want to be with them out of feelings of inadequacy, needing validation, or building your self-esteem? If any of these reasons are the case, you cannot obtain value vicariously through someone else. The only way to add value to yourself is by investing time and energy in yourself. We must value ourselves and treat ourselves kindly. In order for others to see the value in us. However, even then, the object of our desire may just not be into us.
@@psychacks and thank you so much for sharing your education/wisdom withh us ... it means a lot to us ...... keep getting new ideas..... keep sharing your knowldge....... 👍
@@Thank-u-so-much-for-everything Sorry, when do boys ever want 'bad girls'? I don't remember rebellious and uncooperative girls becoming more attractive to boys because of it.
Wow, good stuff. I would add that the more an object of desire exists in our brain and not in the real world, the more perfect it becomes in our mind while at the same time the less we are aware of all the flaws of the object.
I have to say this really rung true for me. There were two girls in college I was just madly in love with but were unavailable to me as they had boyfriends. I see now that I was more interested in the purity of the attraction than actually having them. What a great video. Thank you for posting.
I have experienced this. This melancholic longing. And it's painful as hell. Although we have slept together for two years straight... the pain of the truth that we are not meant to be... still haunts to this day. We miss each other silently. But she is married to someone else.
Everything you said has made me realize and reflect my own past actions and behaviors. I both horrified and grateful to you for pointing out these misconceptions I’ve held up so high for so long, as I can now cast them down and build better ones. Thank you again, Love your work.
I always felt sad that my most intense romantic feelings were unrequited, and thereby for someone unobtainable. This video explains why this is almost inevitable. Thanks.
I hear you, but I want to state it need not be so. Being very familiar with unrequited love, I set out on learning to improve. WIth succes, I managed to conquer my absolute nr 1 three times. None of it lasted, for the usual reasons, but there you have it.
@@broyout3586 Good for you. After my unrequited love the best I could do was friendship with a bit of occasional lust thrown in. So glad you managed better.
Absolutely true and I’ve never really thought about it this way, when I was 18 I met a guy and he was much older than me, and we basically saw each other off and on for 10 years, he fell so in love with me, I couldn’t not fall in love - but we knew we could never get married because we were completely different religions, and where we come from religion is very very very important especially back in the 80s when this took place. I felt really bad seeing him suffer so much because his mother made him marry someone she chose, and that was the end of that. That was the only day that I disrespected him, because I wanted to make sure that he walked away and didn’t look back. Romance is fun, but I’d rather have a good friend and someone to laugh with, listen to music with, read books in bed with and go on walks with my dogs.
Wow. This is so insightful. We as men struggle with marriage, relationships with women, and the difference between our initial feelings of romance and all that has to offer us, with the mundane day to day of being around the same person all the time, and they they same with us. How to balance these two perspectives... there in lies the riddle. But learning the history of previous cultures where one path is taken to an extreme, is very fascinating indeed. This content is gold.
I give up on romantic love and I’m not settling for someone just to be in a relationship. I’m trying to embrace the idea that I should just be single. I’m fine financially and have friends and family. I don’t need an extra burden to be attached to especially if it’s not my dream man!
Your voice is like butter👌🏾. Could listen to you all day. Just discovered your channel and you got yourself a new subscriber. Greetings from South Africa 🇿🇦
That's very sweet, Nicky. Thanks for subscribing. I hope you find the channel helpful. I love connecting with folks in different parts of the world. Greetings from Napa, California!
I had a crush on my friend for 2 years (it was a covert contract i later learned) and recently I asked myself "Right now, would i want this person?" and my crush has a laundry list of mental and life issues that i would need to put up with. The answer was "No, actually having them does not feel as good as longing for them"
Too interesting. I always tried to find the historical roots of that devotion, longing, obsession, self-belittling and hopelessness of the one "in love" and never found it until now! Thanks! (sent a comment before but it didn't go through)
Very enlightening talk. It's interesting, unfortunate, and counter-intuitive that the most intense feelings of desire come from longing rather than obtaining and consummating. If more of us recognized this, maybe we would be less prone to seek other options after obtaining what we thought we wanted.
I remember reading about "courtly love" in literature classes at university. I always thought about romantic love as the icing on a cake. There are different types of love and for a relationship to last, we need much more than romantic love. Too many of us were encouraged to pay attention to all the feelings without considering other things that are very importaant as well. Commitment, character and integrity must be important for both over time.
Hence why love is a game, marriage is a duty and obligation. Marriage is lineage prosperity or taking, love is; free, inviting, charming, charismatic, spontaneous, giving.
The concept of "romantic love" has been around in various iterations throughout various cultures. Everytime you bring this up, its always from a western historical perspective when multiple cultures have this or some variation of it.
''Romantic love... is about feeling certain kind of emotion, a pure and heartfelt longing for the other, a sweet and melancholic pang ''--- This exactly just describes the admiration ( Longing ) and attraction, for the one of a high as possible level of youth and beauty. It is really connected with the idea of song, even the etymology of the word shows that. It is about art, obviously one has to be artist to be so struck, so aware, have that higher mind of intense awareness of a certain valuable quality. If you think it had to necessarily be for someone unobtainable and only from males, then you never read schoolgirls' poetry of some 12-14 year olds. The idea of unattainability is present in us even when we are children, if we are aware of ithe value of youth and its fleetingness, we are aware or fear of how we can't keep it and we cry. We fear that the feelings are not reciprocal and we cry etc etc. You can never claim that is not romantic love ( poetry ) as well, and very expressive, for me it's best. The marriage should be the purpose of it, otherwise one can become ill with longing, and everyone but the weird Cathars would only grab the 1st opportunity to marry the object of their devotion, even if it remains pure and purely romantic afterwards. God gave that capacity and beauty for that purpose and not to become ill. Nor to replace the object of romantic love when it loses its quality of romantic stuff...once devoted should just keep it, for better and for worse, because human heart should not be deceitful, it's bad for it. Well at least brains do and they knows when the feelings are real, and they couldn't had been real if he then switches to another. Then it's just a game, feigning and that is not healthy for your heart nor brains. And God knows what Cathars were really about if they were just playing with that. Apparently just dreaming, seems that aiming for the most respected ladies isn't most honest, but in a way a cowardice, hiding behind a social convention. Maybe the ladies were not the true object of their admiration, cos otherwise they would want that damsel in their hands. If they wanted to preserve her dignity then they ascribed her some nobel spiritual qualities, and the love was actually religious example. In the same time that was good excuse to never proceed, Or maybe they were just tricking them, to see what happens.
I was born in the wrong era i like poetry chivalry romance and real gentleman traits ever notice fantasy usually trumps the reality once conqered intrest lost its the chase always has been follow and they flee ....flee and they follow ...true about what u said being attracted to people out of our class
Romance is a hard game to win. In fact, it's kinda rigged by design, because the romantic is in love with love. Since a real person will always prove disappointing in comparison, romance ensures you never actually "get" the one you long for -- which would destroy the illusion.
What do I think ?... I think your take on it is spot on, it’s something I’ve never considered before but your explanation make it easy to make sense of. Yet another great video 👌... Dose the adored know she’s the object of being adored or is she in the dark ?... dose the knight in shining armour care ?
In the traditional Romantic arrangement, both the adored and her husband generally knew that she was a particular knight's (or knights') object of affection. She would often receive letters and gifts from the adorer, who would dedicate his exploits to her. And sometimes, in return for his pains, the knight could even hope to receive a small token (like a lock of hair) from his lady fair.
PsycHacks Having given more thought to this, surely the knight would feel he was being short changed, I mean to chase the fair lady of his dreams and get very little back other than a ( lock of hair) would keep his emotions and libido in check with nowhere to go. So, it seems the adored has the best of both worlds, she’s getting pleasured by the hubby and romanced by the knight who is constantly seeking her approval yet only gets the scraps and precious time wasted on his efforts being unrewarded. Somehow I’m not sure this is a good idea.
Brilliant and insightful as usual, appeares that everything we feel or long to feel is conditioned by our culture. A lot of respect for opening our eyes.
Before there was Magazines & Comic Book Characters --- perhaps those annual carnival events, we're prized highly for The Common Crowd.*Thinks of Renaissance Pleasure Faire / William Shakespeare
You should preface this vlog by saying the Origins Of European romantic Love, because if you had the occasion to read some ancient Egyptian love poetry and love songs you would come to the vivid realization that the sentiment of romantic love (craving , yearning, besotted) with a partner or would be lover existed long before Europeans even learned to read and write.
When I had my first official girlfriend I broke up with her in two weeks not due to any fault of hers. I realized I didn't want a relationship I just loved the chase. Still feel bad for her.
I am loving a man by chivalric love. He is of much higher status, absolutely handsome and so remoted to obtainment BUT there exists a slight chance for us together, which seems for me CRUCIAL for true romantic love and feeling of attraction to somebody. And it's interesting because this unobtainability, remoteness provokes in me such a strong feeling of love that I never ever fall in love with anyone else, even if a person is super-attractive. After short romance I always brake person's heart. The difference between us now and chivalry romance seems to me that in these times we wouldn't fall in love in somebody who is 100% unatainable. No one would stop a good relationship because they are in love with some holywood actor. There must be this slight possibility of attaining this very attractive for us person, our 10/10 and it is this slight possibility which causes the insane feeling of love which can rest for many years, waiting with the possibility..........
It’s kind of difficult to have adoration for the average western woman with her green hair, nose piercings, full sleeve tattoos, and three digit body count .
Very fascinating! And almost disturbing. I finally understand what ive been doing and why it sucked. The desire for the unobtainable creates a high, or bliss-like state, but if you give it up because the unobtainability gets to you its like the crash or hangover where it was you experience the equal opposite of that bliss state. It sounds like the idea behind this old practice was to make the person an object of meditation, where you are fully dedicated to and focused on the person to make this never ending bliss state. If thats the case that is a very crazy game to play and since we lost the original ideas behind this practice of romance its easy to see how it all went wrong. We're taught as kids that romance is just how relationships naturally form. But really its a very different thing from what most of us want to achieve. Am i close or way off?
How does this knowledge translate into actionable advice irl? Does this mean it’s best to maintain an optimal amount of distance and an air of mystery in order to maintain interest in a long term relationship? Or something else?
I think there are a lot of practical uses of this information in real life. But I think the most important one is understanding that the attraction you feel for a specific person may be more a reaction to the circumstances _around_ the person than to the person himself (or herself). Those who have the fortune (?) of obtaining someone who was previously unobtainable often find themselves disappointed: the person they got wasn't at all the person they thought they were.
Practice gratitude and stick to reality. There was a point in our lives when we wanted what we already have but we still find ourselves chasing more. “Enough is enough”... what’s your “enough”?
I’ve finally come to a point in my life where I’m not relying on romance anymore to decide I like someone or in choosing a long term partner. Non western cultures had a strong practice on choosing partners based on morals, social status, your family knows them, financially stable… it was not on feeling butterflies or how warm they made you feel or soulmates. Asian cultures were practicing traditional ways with realistic values for right reasons plus the father would be involved in his children’s partnership. Western cultures we’re running around looking for the one and is beautiful romance is best for teenagers not adults in this day and age. Feelings are fleeting. It’s who you can trust, loyal, financially stable, mature.. attractive yes for a man to want a woman but a woman it’s not his looks but his willingness to provide, offer a safe place , to feel and be feminine and to have children with whilst being financially abundant. Romantic feelings should not be a priority in marriages as feelings change
I love your videos, I find them very useful. I just want to point out a fact. The truth is that most cats are lactose intolerant so giving them cow's milk can actually cause significant health issues.
In Italian provenzal songs, romantic love was exclusively love out of marriage, love towards the lover. Always in infidelity. Meaning marriage was not seen at all as answer to romantic needs but explicitly as a business and family affair. I had never heard of the cathar sect. But I'm pretty sure infidelity was not just platonic for many since we have many literature alluding to such vices or pleasures if you will , most of the ime infidelity was acted upon since that Era. However if you take into account classic literature like Don Quixote. The ideal of the knight and the lady is always shown as platonic, however don Quixote is a way of making fun of such unattainable chivalry. Othe resources like Dantes divine comedy deal extensively with affairs and infidelity during those times .
You're not wrong, Ash. Even in the prototypical Romantic myth, the tragedy of Tristan and Isolde, the love affair is a consummated infidelity. However, the two also repented of the infidelity and sought to restore the distance between them by the end of the story. In practice, emotional affairs often become sexual. That said, my understanding is that this was considered a significant breach of decorum from the perspective of the chivalric code. Think of the legend of King Arthur, and the betrayal of Guinevere and Lancelot. I think some cultures subsequently adapted to accommodate multiple relationships (i.e., the wife and the lover); however, I think that the romantic relationship was originally (or, at least, ideally) non-sexual. Good comment.
@@psychacks interesting , I think infidelity is simply the other side of marriage, for hypocritical people and for this society as whole, it ha dbeen thsi way since it was first conceived. Just because is seeing as something bad it doesn't mean ppl won't do it. I for one do not like romanticism at all. It's unrealistic and hypocritical as I said. But for those who do like it few I've seen honest enough to love to those ideals.
@@Ash-so2sr I'm not a fan myself. My main bone to pick is that romanticism tends to give people a grossly distorted view of what a relationship "should" look like: one that is predominated by the feeling that exists within it. When people make emotional decisions about who to spend their lives with, it can lead to some very unpleasant circumstances further down the road. Thanks for watching.
I think it's really funny that a major motivator for the creation of the ideal of romantic love were some cultists just wanting to "keep feeling the feels"
great dr taraban.... and that's why we should never dream of romantic love so we don't get those high level of frustration..and never expect to be romantically loved of course
So interesting! But what would keep the knight interested in pursuing if the object was forever unattainable? Would the adored ever give any indication of interest or reinforcement for them to get these feelings and want to continue playing the game?
You make too much sense I always try to remember that Edgar Allen Poe is considered a romantic poet when i find myself in a limerant situation. There is a dark side to romance and contemplation of the passions from a sublime state of mind may be helpful. But it takes time and mindfulness.
Nothing works in this world like it should be ... simply because this planet is a real Hell for most of us and few who are enjoying it are the favorites. That's it !!!
that was me in higschooler age. I had powerful crushes on girls that I fully knew were unobtainable. There was nothing erotic about it, it was closer to a "religious" feeling. Thankfully, I got wiser in college. Years later, I had a co-worker who had a huge crush on a married young woman in our office. She was a pretty amazing girl, I have to agree; but she was entirely unobtainable to him, although she was awfully flirty. So after many beer sessions, I told this to him: you want to be closer to God, but you're using this woman as a substitute. You should be going to a Church or a house of prayer of your choice - he was Christian by birth, so I advised him to follow his roots. I don't know what he ended up doing, we each found other jobs and did not keep in touch.
So you advised him to get closer to a being that only exists on an abstract level as a substitute for a person whose presence (however peripheral) was real? That must have worked a treat.
@MrIrishscouse he had a powerful desire for a religious experience that drew him to agony. There is no way he could have fulfilled that desire ny getting close to this woman, even if she was willing. I'm not really a believer in the plain direct sense, but religion as we know it works for a lot of people. It has worked for ages. So why not advise him what works and what he was already familiar with?
Thank you for this video and your other one on the origins. You just gave me permission to stop holding my breath for romantic love. It’s never going to happen, because it doesn’t even exist. Why do we humans get so much pleasure chasing after illusions? Is this what drives life? Does life always have to be a bait and switch?
can't focus on the video, drowning in shame: - absolute failure in my career - unattractive/overweight/diabetic - zero friends - never been in a relationship - poverty - shackled by the past, by my fears (no idea how to turn my life around)
Sounds like you're having a tough time, RH. When I've been beset by problems, I've found it useful to limit my focus and work aggressively toward a single goal. And, in choosing a first goal, I would pick one that is primarily within my domain of control and associated with a reasonable likelihood of success. The "good news" is that when things are bad, they are less likely to get worse than better as a consequence of applying consistent effort. Hang in there!
I really appreciate your insights. Amazing, but obviously true, directions the human race has taken on matters of the heart. Important to take another look-might've just seemed like a good idea, at the time....it's not goal oriented, it's sensation oriented, on false pretense.
"Romantic love is not about sex nor marriage. It is about feeling a certain kind of emotion, a pure and heartfelt longing for the other" Cathars were smart. Their purpose of this tough endeavour they put themselves was to find God. By putting themselves in a situation where they were idolizing a woman they could not have as their own, they were making themselves feel in a certain way, and later on they could switch this love for her for love of the divine.
@@NehaSharma-777 Those that have been in narcissistic relationships are empaths, which mean they possess the ability to feel the emotion of another. This is the ability that the Jedi cultivate in Star Wars. Although not trained, these people are liked by the Divine, call it God, call it The Force, call it Christ. Usually the pain of this relationship makes them turn to God, but this is not always the case.
@@SonnetiGR especially if their Parent was a narcissist and then their romantic partners , 'friends', neighbours , teachers , colleagues, bosses , have been like that as well . God is the only option left lol .
@@NehaSharma-777 No, it is not the only option. Indeed, usually there is a narcissistic parent and that is why the person attracts a narcissistic partner or friend. Because this was learned when he was a child. So, the person has learned to justify and forgive abusive behaviour. A healthy person does not tolerate this. So, the person has to learn to deny abusive behaviours. In psychology this is taught in lessons called "assertiveness training" and there is an excellent book called "your perfect right" that teaches this. God exists alright, but all in due time. Not yet. Not because of some bad relationships. The person must learn first to distinguish
Romance does exist, and comes from above. I believe in romance. I haven't given up on it. These knights were stupid. A high status woman is not equal to a high value woman. Sometimes they are even the opposite, as we see. I don't want to be high in status, I want to be in average status all my life. But I want to be high value, and don't give myself to anything that goes against God's will. But I am also not a hippocrite, and I know that the first of all commandments is love. Sometimes it is better for two people to separate, when they can't make each other happy anymore. People change, sometimes couples deviate from each other in intrests and goals. A marriage makes sense only with shared goals, no other way. I love the catholic church, but God is far beyond their leaders. They seem not to understand anything of life. This is because they live in their own life, far away from us. They follow their own rules, not the rules of love. Their hearts are made of stone.
It's easy to see the Cathars as facilitating the ongoing romantic feels but I wonder how genuine the intention was. Actually having a physical relationship with a partner isn't an idealogical choice but a biological imperative to keep our species going.
I've watched one of your videos because a freind recommended it to me and I just can't stop. This series in particular about romance really resonated with me. The most intense love affair I ever had was with a married (unobtainable) woman. We had a relationship for a while but iit was impossible. Eventually we split paths and it broke my heart, it was also the most intense love I've ever felt. I remember reading books of old about romance such as Romeo and Juliet and thinking "wow this is just like what I felt" haha. You hit the nail on the head, now it all makes sense. Great work and research!
Thank you for making the link between Cathars and romantic love. The Cathars were opposed to procreation. They were also opposed to the creator God of the Old Testament, called the demi-urge. They only worshipped the loving God of the New Testament. It was a very widespread movement in Southern France but then they were all killed for their beliefs by armies from northern France or converted to Catholicism.
Hello Dr. Taraban, I hope you are fine. You mention a significant issue, romanticism. I didn't know the romanticism idea originated from a sect until you tell. But it originated from somewhere by someone and has disastered many many lives. Its extensions keep affecting people in a variety of forms, such as Hollywood, Disney, romance novels, rom-com, etc. As much as love and affection are important and vital for human beings; putting someone on a pedestal, adoring and worshipping someone, and accepting them no matter what happens are not normal. Nobody is perfect as well as nobody is indispensable. This sect you mention and its extensions expose people to the idea that pursuing and embracing "love" no matter what happens. Therefore, there are a lot of people who suffer from this distorted idea, let alone a relationship is being formed. The primary function of relationships is building a family and reproduction, not some "heroic, divine, agonized" ideas. Our ancestors, ancient ancestors knew this truth and they lived their life on this basis. Today, we are exposed to this distorted idea. Love and affection are important as I said but they are, especially romanticism, not the primary goal of humanity. They are just supplements for reproduction and new generations while building rooted and powerful families. Thank you for your work Dr. Taraban, keep informing us with your wisdom.
A Chinese proverb says, "A mistress is better than a wife, an affair is better than a mistress, an affair that cannot be materialized is better than an affair."
I'm sure I read somewhere about this and the troubadours who popularised these concepts. The Cahars aspect is key, but here Romantic Love does not mean what it means today. It was a religious metaphor.....(Power of Myth, Joseph Campbell)
Haven’t looked into any of this in detail but it is my understanding that the knights (low level aristocrats and bouncers for the king) applied this noble criteria only to women within their own socio economic caste. Commoner women were fair game and subject to be raped if presented the opportunity.
If the adorer was to win the lottery, then the adored suddenely becomes obtainable. However with obtainability, the romance can often wear off quickly. If it doesn't, the the adorer may well be suffering from mental disonance or even mental illness. Then he is heading into very turblent waters.
Well, at the very same era, the devotion of Virgin Mary rose, so I wouldn't say it was something exclusively connected to the Cathars, nor it was a denial of marriage. It was the late medieval France. It was aristocracy and troubadours. It was (re)discovered ideal of femininity.
Hm. I think it depends on what you mean by "emotional pursuit." Romance is probably too recent an invention to have changed genetic sequencing. However, we almost certainly are hardwired for certain sexual/mating behaviors and strategies from our evolutionary past.
Were the knights single men who were likely to be killed in battle before they had the chance to marry? Could a man with a wife indulge in romantic love for another woman?
Is that why in this generation people go after people who are already in relationships? Or has this always existed just that it has become a more common thing?
"Cult" can have a pejorative connotation, but that squares with their persecution as heretics at the hands of the Catholic Church. "Sect" or "branch" doesn't have the negative connotation, but does suggest that the Cathars were still a part of Catholicism. So no perfect word here. Thanks for watching.
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This the first in a series of short discussions on some of the lesser-known truths about romantic love. In this episode, I'll explain why the unobtainability of the adored is actually a core component of the experience of romantic love. It goes all the way back to the code of the chivalric knights of old, and it goes a long way toward explaining one of the more bewildering facets of romance, namely: why we seem to want what we can't have.
Orion is a licensed psychologist in the state of California.
Podcast available on Spotify, Instagram, Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, and others.
To schedule a consultation: psychackspodcast@gmail.com
Website: oriontarabanpsyd.com
#attraction #love #relationships
This really rings true for me in so many areas of life; longing always seems to be a much more intense feeling than actually having.
Of course. Longing is mixed up with our own projected ideals, which (almost by definition) will always be more attractive to us that reality.
Linda study type Four on the Enneagram of Personality Types. You're a Four.
As a general rule
man is a fool.
When its hot he wants it cool.
When its cool he wants it hot
Always wanting what its not.
This is proof of how mixed up our species truly is (or has become).
@@donagh1954 thanks for bringing that to my attention, type 4 is literally me
Yeah I say! He should always remain a lad but he doesn't.@@donagh1954
Once I asked a couple I know: "How do you keep love strong after all those years?" They answerd: "We treat each other the same way we did when we were dating." They celebrated 42 years together. They are still romantic. He brings her flowers. She draws heart with his name on her notes. Romance makes them both happy and their relationship sweet.
Hope not wrong in assuming that both had relatively stable parents ?
Sure
Why Do We Want the People We Cant Have? 9 Reasons
I am sure we can all remember being a child and wanting something our parents said we could not have, yet after being denied, we wanted it even more.
Consider this, you have a teenage daughter and as a parent you really dislike her bad boy boyfriend, however, the more you try to discourage the relationship the more she seems to want to be with him. The same response can occur with adults.
Unfortunately, despite continual discouragement and rejection, some adults cannot seem to get the idea of being with an individual who is not interested in them out of their mind. The more he/she rejects you and the more forcefully he/she indicates that they do not want to be with you, the more desirous you seem to become.
Previous research conducted on dating, relationships, and rejection suggests being rejected can lead to increased yearning and the feeling of being hooked, sort of like the thrill of the chase.
Romantic rejection can lead to increased yearning because it stimulates parts of the brain associated with motivation, reward, addiction, and cravings. New research also suggests the reasoning individuals fall for the unavailable may actually be scientific, some people cant help it. Some people are drawn to the unknown, the unpredictability of dating, or being in a relationship with someone who appears to be different from them.
Most of us are familiar with the nice guy or sweet girl who is always mindful of our feelings, goes above and beyond to make us happy, and as luck would have it, he or she is interested in a relationship with us.
However, they dont seem to present any excitement for us, actually they are kind of boring - at least to us. Ironically, the bad boy or girl occupies significant time and space in our minds. I would be remiss if I didnt acknowledge the bad boy and bad girl may not necessarily be bad people, perhaps just not right for us. He or she may have a love-them and leave-them attitude, is in another relationship, is not emotionally available, does not value us or our opinions as we do theirs, is not honest or trustworthy, sends out mixed signals, etc.
Yet, we cannot seem to stop thinking about them.
Some people might argue the reason we pursue what we cannot have is rooted in loss. However, this is not necessarily the case as we never had it to begin with. Often when we want something or someone, we fantasize about it, bending it and twisting it into the thing or person we want. We begin to ascribe characteristics of value that may not be possessed by the person of interest. We can be madly in love with someone who doesn’t want us, and never wanted us, but the situation can sometimes be as painful as someone breaking up with us.
Another theory is that of anxiety and distress as we begin to question why he or she does not want to be with us, what is it that we are lacking?
9 Reason Why We Want What We Cannot Have Include:
We are excited about the thrill of the chase
We believe if by being accepted by the individual we desire it will add value to us or validate us
It will satisfy our ego
We struggle with low self-esteem
We are attracted to the unknown or unpredictability of the other person
We want to fulfill a fantasy
We want to prove to ourselves and others we deserve to have them
We unconsciously placed superhuman characteristics on our object of desire
The less the person reciprocates, the more time we tend to invest trying to get the person to reciprocate
So, when you want someone whom you simply cannot have, the best thing to do is relax, step back, and really think about why you want to be with this person that is not interested in you.
Do you want to be with them out of feelings of inadequacy, needing validation, or building your self-esteem? If any of these reasons are the case, you cannot obtain value vicariously through someone else. The only way to add value to yourself is by investing time and energy in yourself.
We must value ourselves and treat ourselves kindly. In order for others to see the value in us. However, even then, the object of our desire may just not be into us.
I agree with a lot of those reasons. Thanks for sharing.
@@psychacks and thank you so much for sharing your education/wisdom withh us ...
it means a lot to us ...... keep getting new ideas..... keep sharing your knowldge....... 👍
@@Thank-u-so-much-for-everything Sorry, when do boys ever want 'bad girls'? I don't remember rebellious and uncooperative girls becoming more attractive to boys because of it.
Wow, good stuff. I would add that the more an object of desire exists in our brain and not in the real world, the more perfect it becomes in our mind while at the same time the less we are aware of all the flaws of the object.
No problem. Just like calling someone on the phone. If you call them twice and they don’t answer or return your call. Shit can them.
I have to say this really rung true for me. There were two girls in college I was just madly in love with but were unavailable to me as they had boyfriends. I see now that I was more interested in the purity of the attraction than actually having them. What a great video. Thank you for posting.
I have experienced this.
This melancholic longing.
And it's painful as hell.
Although we have slept together for two years straight... the pain of the truth that we are not meant to be... still haunts to this day.
We miss each other silently.
But she is married to someone else.
If she feels the same about you, she shouldn't be.
it is a lot different to what he is describing... was she married back in the day when u were "together" ?
You nailed my life's romantic tragedy! Sent all this stuff about romance you made for my children to learn in advance.
Everything you said has made me realize and reflect my own past actions and behaviors. I both horrified and grateful to you for pointing out these misconceptions I’ve held up so high for so long, as I can now cast them down and build better ones.
Thank you again, Love your work.
I always felt sad that my most intense romantic feelings were unrequited, and thereby for someone unobtainable. This video explains why this is almost inevitable. Thanks.
I hear you, but I want to state it need not be so. Being very familiar with unrequited love, I set out on learning to improve. WIth succes, I managed to conquer my absolute nr 1 three times. None of it lasted, for the usual reasons, but there you have it.
@@broyout3586 Good for you. After my unrequited love the best I could do was friendship with a bit of occasional lust thrown in. So glad you managed better.
Absolutely true and I’ve never really thought about it this way, when I was 18 I met a guy and he was much older than me, and we basically saw each other off and on for 10 years, he fell so in love with me, I couldn’t not fall in love - but we knew we could never get married because we were completely different religions, and where we come from religion is very very very important especially back in the 80s when this took place.
I felt really bad seeing him suffer so much because his mother made him marry someone she chose, and that was the end of that.
That was the only day that I disrespected him, because I wanted to make sure that he walked away and didn’t look back.
Romance is fun, but I’d rather have a good friend and someone to laugh with, listen to music with, read books in bed with and go on walks with my dogs.
Wow. This is so insightful. We as men struggle with marriage, relationships with women, and the difference between our initial feelings of romance and all that has to offer us, with the mundane day to day of being around the same person all the time, and they they same with us. How to balance these two perspectives... there in lies the riddle.
But learning the history of previous cultures where one path is taken to an extreme, is very fascinating indeed.
This content is gold.
That explains my previous life. Time to evolve.
I give up on romantic love and I’m not settling for someone just to be in a relationship. I’m trying to embrace the idea that I should just be single. I’m fine financially and have friends and family. I don’t need an extra burden to be attached to especially if it’s not my dream man!
Your voice is like butter👌🏾. Could listen to you all day. Just discovered your channel and you got yourself a new subscriber. Greetings from South Africa 🇿🇦
That's very sweet, Nicky. Thanks for subscribing. I hope you find the channel helpful.
I love connecting with folks in different parts of the world. Greetings from Napa, California!
I had a crush on my friend for 2 years (it was a covert contract i later learned) and recently I asked myself "Right now, would i want this person?" and my crush has a laundry list of mental and life issues that i would need to put up with. The answer was "No, actually having them does not feel as good as longing for them"
What an absolute legend! This is MIND-BLOWING!
Too interesting. I always tried to find the historical roots of that devotion, longing, obsession, self-belittling and hopelessness of the one "in love" and never found it until now! Thanks! (sent a comment before but it didn't go through)
That’s Simping on a new level. Holy crap😂
Gigasimp
historic origin of simping
😂😂😂
True!! Simping Level is over 9000!!!
Very enlightening talk. It's interesting, unfortunate, and counter-intuitive that the most intense feelings of desire come from longing rather than obtaining and consummating. If more of us recognized this, maybe we would be less prone to seek other options after obtaining what we thought we wanted.
I remember reading about "courtly love" in literature classes at university. I always thought about romantic love as the icing on a cake. There are different types of love and for a relationship to last, we need much more than romantic love. Too many of us were encouraged to pay attention to all the feelings without considering other things that are very importaant as well. Commitment, character and integrity must be important for both over time.
About time we have a psychiatrist that is good for men, thanks for your help brother
Hence why love is a game, marriage is a duty and obligation. Marriage is lineage prosperity or taking, love is; free, inviting, charming, charismatic, spontaneous, giving.
The concept of "romantic love" has been around in various iterations throughout various cultures.
Everytime you bring this up, its always from a western historical perspective when multiple cultures have this or some variation of it.
I have never heard of Romance being a factor in Aztec, Mayan, or Native American cultures. Religious devotion yes, but worship of the female…NO.
''Romantic love... is about feeling certain kind of emotion, a pure and heartfelt longing for the other, a sweet and melancholic pang ''--- This exactly just describes the admiration ( Longing ) and attraction, for the one of a high as possible level of youth and beauty. It is really connected with the idea of song, even the etymology of the word shows that. It is about art, obviously one has to be artist to be so struck, so aware, have that higher mind of intense awareness of a certain valuable quality. If you think it had to necessarily be for someone unobtainable and only from males, then you never read schoolgirls' poetry of some 12-14 year olds. The idea of unattainability is present in us even when we are children, if we are aware of ithe value of youth and its fleetingness, we are aware or fear of how we can't keep it and we cry. We fear that the feelings are not reciprocal and we cry etc etc. You can never claim that is not romantic love ( poetry ) as well, and very expressive, for me it's best.
The marriage should be the purpose of it, otherwise one can become ill with longing, and everyone but the weird Cathars would only grab the 1st opportunity to marry the object of their devotion, even if it remains pure and purely romantic afterwards. God gave that capacity and beauty for that purpose and not to become ill. Nor to replace the object of romantic love when it loses its quality of romantic stuff...once devoted should just keep it, for better and for worse, because human heart should not be deceitful, it's bad for it. Well at least brains do and they knows when the feelings are real, and they couldn't had been real if he then switches to another. Then it's just a game, feigning and that is not healthy for your heart nor brains. And God knows what Cathars were really about if they were just playing with that. Apparently just dreaming, seems that aiming for the most respected ladies isn't most honest, but in a way a cowardice, hiding behind a social convention. Maybe the ladies were not the true object of their admiration, cos otherwise they would want that damsel in their hands. If they wanted to preserve her dignity then they ascribed her some nobel spiritual qualities, and the love was actually religious example. In the same time that was good excuse to never proceed, Or maybe they were just tricking them, to see what happens.
Is it weird that I’m both sad and angry right now? I feel like a fool.
Thanks for these videos. 💚
I was born in the wrong era i like poetry chivalry romance and real gentleman traits ever notice fantasy usually trumps the reality once conqered intrest lost its the chase always has been follow and they flee ....flee and they follow ...true about what u said being attracted to people out of our class
Romance is a hard game to win. In fact, it's kinda rigged by design, because the romantic is in love with love. Since a real person will always prove disappointing in comparison, romance ensures you never actually "get" the one you long for -- which would destroy the illusion.
@@psychacks THIS!!!
What do I think ?... I think your take on it is spot on, it’s something I’ve never considered before but your explanation make it easy to make sense of. Yet another great video 👌... Dose the adored know she’s the object of being adored or is she in the dark ?... dose the knight in shining armour care ?
In the traditional Romantic arrangement, both the adored and her husband generally knew that she was a particular knight's (or knights') object of affection. She would often receive letters and gifts from the adorer, who would dedicate his exploits to her. And sometimes, in return for his pains, the knight could even hope to receive a small token (like a lock of hair) from his lady fair.
PsycHacks Having given more thought to this, surely the knight would feel he was being short changed, I mean to chase the fair lady of his dreams and get very little back other than a ( lock of hair) would keep his emotions and libido in check with nowhere to go. So, it seems the adored has the best of both worlds, she’s getting pleasured by the hubby and romanced by the knight who is constantly seeking her approval yet only gets the scraps and precious time wasted on his efforts being unrewarded. Somehow I’m not sure this is a good idea.
@@terencehennegan1439 It's like I can hear the light bulbs going off. Keep watching, Terence.
Brilliant and insightful as usual, appeares that everything we feel or long to feel is conditioned by our culture. A lot of respect for opening our eyes.
Before there was Magazines & Comic Book Characters --- perhaps those annual carnival events, we're prized highly for The Common Crowd.*Thinks of Renaissance Pleasure Faire / William Shakespeare
You should preface this vlog by saying the Origins Of European romantic Love, because if you had the occasion to read some ancient Egyptian love poetry and love songs you would come to the vivid realization that the sentiment of romantic love (craving , yearning, besotted) with a partner or would be lover existed long before Europeans even learned to read and write.
When I had my first official girlfriend I broke up with her in two weeks not due to any fault of hers. I realized I didn't want a relationship I just loved the chase. Still feel bad for her.
You been doing well on this and should do more
I am loving a man by chivalric love. He is of much higher status, absolutely handsome and so remoted to obtainment BUT there exists a slight chance for us together, which seems for me CRUCIAL for true romantic love and feeling of attraction to somebody. And it's interesting because this unobtainability, remoteness provokes in me such a strong feeling of love that I never ever fall in love with anyone else, even if a person is super-attractive. After short romance I always brake person's heart.
The difference between us now and chivalry romance seems to me that in these times we wouldn't fall in love in somebody who is 100% unatainable. No one would stop a good relationship because they are in love with some holywood actor. There must be this slight possibility of attaining this very attractive for us person, our 10/10 and it is this slight possibility which causes the insane feeling of love which can rest for many years, waiting with the possibility..........
It’s kind of difficult to have adoration for the average western woman with her green hair, nose piercings, full sleeve tattoos, and three digit body count .
Very fascinating! And almost disturbing. I finally understand what ive been doing and why it sucked. The desire for the unobtainable creates a high, or bliss-like state, but if you give it up because the unobtainability gets to you its like the crash or hangover where it was you experience the equal opposite of that bliss state. It sounds like the idea behind this old practice was to make the person an object of meditation, where you are fully dedicated to and focused on the person to make this never ending bliss state. If thats the case that is a very crazy game to play and since we lost the original ideas behind this practice of romance its easy to see how it all went wrong. We're taught as kids that romance is just how relationships naturally form. But really its a very different thing from what most of us want to achieve. Am i close or way off?
How does this knowledge translate into actionable advice irl? Does this mean it’s best to maintain an optimal amount of distance and an air of mystery in order to maintain interest in a long term relationship? Or something else?
I think there are a lot of practical uses of this information in real life. But I think the most important one is understanding that the attraction you feel for a specific person may be more a reaction to the circumstances _around_ the person than to the person himself (or herself). Those who have the fortune (?) of obtaining someone who was previously unobtainable often find themselves disappointed: the person they got wasn't at all the person they thought they were.
Practice gratitude and stick to reality.
There was a point in our lives when we wanted what we already have but we still find ourselves chasing more. “Enough is enough”... what’s your “enough”?
If the person you’re with is too overly dependent on “mystery” idk man…I don’t see them as LTR material lol
I’ve finally come to a point in my life where I’m not relying on romance anymore to decide I like someone or in choosing a long term partner. Non western cultures had a strong practice on choosing partners based on morals, social status, your family knows them, financially stable… it was not on feeling butterflies or how warm they made you feel or soulmates. Asian cultures were practicing traditional ways with realistic values for right reasons plus the father would be involved in his children’s partnership. Western cultures we’re running around looking for the one and is beautiful romance is best for teenagers not adults in this day and age. Feelings are fleeting. It’s who you can trust, loyal, financially stable, mature.. attractive yes for a man to want a woman but a woman it’s not his looks but his willingness to provide, offer a safe place , to feel and be feminine and to have children with whilst being financially abundant. Romantic feelings should not be a priority in marriages as feelings change
I love your videos, I find them very useful. I just want to point out a fact.
The truth is that most cats are lactose intolerant so giving them cow's milk can actually cause significant health issues.
In Italian provenzal songs, romantic love was exclusively love out of marriage, love towards the lover. Always in infidelity. Meaning marriage was not seen at all as answer to romantic needs but explicitly as a business and family affair.
I had never heard of the cathar sect.
But I'm pretty sure infidelity was not just platonic for many since we have many literature alluding to such vices or pleasures if you will , most of the ime infidelity was acted upon since that Era.
However if you take into account classic literature like Don Quixote. The ideal of the knight and the lady is always shown as platonic, however don Quixote is a way of making fun of such unattainable chivalry.
Othe resources like Dantes divine comedy deal extensively with affairs and infidelity during those times .
You're not wrong, Ash. Even in the prototypical Romantic myth, the tragedy of Tristan and Isolde, the love affair is a consummated infidelity. However, the two also repented of the infidelity and sought to restore the distance between them by the end of the story.
In practice, emotional affairs often become sexual. That said, my understanding is that this was considered a significant breach of decorum from the perspective of the chivalric code. Think of the legend of King Arthur, and the betrayal of Guinevere and Lancelot. I think some cultures subsequently adapted to accommodate multiple relationships (i.e., the wife and the lover); however, I think that the romantic relationship was originally (or, at least, ideally) non-sexual. Good comment.
@@psychacks interesting , I think infidelity is simply the other side of marriage, for hypocritical people and for this society as whole, it ha dbeen thsi way since it was first conceived. Just because is seeing as something bad it doesn't mean ppl won't do it. I for one do not like romanticism at all. It's unrealistic and hypocritical as I said. But for those who do like it few I've seen honest enough to love to those ideals.
@@Ash-so2sr I'm not a fan myself. My main bone to pick is that romanticism tends to give people a grossly distorted view of what a relationship "should" look like: one that is predominated by the feeling that exists within it. When people make emotional decisions about who to spend their lives with, it can lead to some very unpleasant circumstances further down the road. Thanks for watching.
How interesting!! ✨
Man, did I ever need to hear this right now.
I think it's really funny that a major motivator for the creation of the ideal of romantic love were some cultists just wanting to "keep feeling the feels"
Truly born to feel
great dr taraban.... and that's why we should never dream of romantic love so we don't get those high level of frustration..and never expect to be romantically loved of course
So interesting! But what would keep the knight interested in pursuing if the object was forever unattainable? Would the adored ever give any indication of interest or reinforcement for them to get these feelings and want to continue playing the game?
She would recognize his chivalry.
Yes their was the unobtainable mystique too
You make too much sense
I always try to remember that Edgar Allen Poe is considered a romantic poet when i find myself in a limerant situation. There is a dark side to romance and contemplation of the passions from a sublime state of mind may be helpful. But it takes time and mindfulness.
Once the engagement and honeymoon are over. The relationship goes downhill. The funs over.
Facts.
Men love Ideally & women love oppurtinically.
Nothing works in this world like it should be ... simply because this planet is a real Hell for most of us and few who are enjoying it are the favorites. That's it !!!
that was me in higschooler age. I had powerful crushes on girls that I fully knew were unobtainable. There was nothing erotic about it, it was closer to a "religious" feeling. Thankfully, I got wiser in college.
Years later, I had a co-worker who had a huge crush on a married young woman in our office. She was a pretty amazing girl, I have to agree; but she was entirely unobtainable to him, although she was awfully flirty. So after many beer sessions, I told this to him: you want to be closer to God, but you're using this woman as a substitute. You should be going to a Church or a house of prayer of your choice - he was Christian by birth, so I advised him to follow his roots. I don't know what he ended up doing, we each found other jobs and did not keep in touch.
So you advised him to get closer to a being that only exists on an abstract level as a substitute for a person whose presence (however peripheral) was real? That must have worked a treat.
@MrIrishscouse he had a powerful desire for a religious experience that drew him to agony. There is no way he could have fulfilled that desire ny getting close to this woman, even if she was willing.
I'm not really a believer in the plain direct sense, but religion as we know it works for a lot of people. It has worked for ages. So why not advise him what works and what he was already familiar with?
This is dynamite! Thank you!
Thank you for this video and your other one on the origins. You just gave me permission to stop holding my breath for romantic love. It’s never going to happen, because it doesn’t even exist.
Why do we humans get so much pleasure chasing after illusions? Is this what drives life? Does life always have to be a bait and switch?
can't focus on the video, drowning in shame:
- absolute failure in my career
- unattractive/overweight/diabetic
- zero friends
- never been in a relationship
- poverty
- shackled by the past, by my fears
(no idea how to turn my life around)
Sounds like you're having a tough time, RH. When I've been beset by problems, I've found it useful to limit my focus and work aggressively toward a single goal. And, in choosing a first goal, I would pick one that is primarily within my domain of control and associated with a reasonable likelihood of success.
The "good news" is that when things are bad, they are less likely to get worse than better as a consequence of applying consistent effort. Hang in there!
@@psychacks THANK YOU
Only way is up
Create new character bro
How true! Thanks for sharing
I really appreciate your insights. Amazing, but obviously true, directions the human race has taken on matters of the heart. Important to take another look-might've just seemed like a good idea, at the time....it's not goal oriented, it's sensation oriented, on false pretense.
This is interesting. I would rather be the adorer than the adored.
Huh---never heard that one. Well done with the explanation-----Charles
Thanks for listening, Charles. I hope you find the content useful.
The Lady Dulcinea! Don Quixote is the text on this and an hilarious read.
This topic stung and hit a nerve.
this makes so much sense
"Romantic love is not about sex nor marriage. It is about feeling a certain kind of emotion, a pure and heartfelt longing for the other"
Cathars were smart. Their purpose of this tough endeavour they put themselves was to find God. By putting themselves in a situation where they were idolizing a woman they could not have as their own, they were making themselves feel in a certain way, and later on they could switch this love for her for love of the divine.
Just like Finding God is a natural path for those coming out of narcissist relationship
@@NehaSharma-777 Those that have been in narcissistic relationships are empaths, which mean they possess the ability to feel the emotion of another. This is the ability that the Jedi cultivate in Star Wars. Although not trained, these people are liked by the Divine, call it God, call it The Force, call it Christ. Usually the pain of this relationship makes them turn to God, but this is not always the case.
@@SonnetiGR especially if their Parent was a narcissist and then their romantic partners , 'friends', neighbours , teachers , colleagues, bosses , have been like that as well .
God is the only option left lol .
@@NehaSharma-777 No, it is not the only option. Indeed, usually there is a narcissistic parent and that is why the person attracts a narcissistic partner or friend. Because this was learned when he was a child. So, the person has learned to justify and forgive abusive behaviour. A healthy person does not tolerate this.
So, the person has to learn to deny abusive behaviours. In psychology this is taught in lessons called "assertiveness training" and there is an excellent book called "your perfect right" that teaches this.
God exists alright, but all in due time. Not yet. Not because of some bad relationships. The person must learn first to distinguish
Brilliant insight!
Please, please write a book, Dr. Taraban.
Romance does exist, and comes from above. I believe in romance. I haven't given up on it. These knights were stupid.
A high status woman is not equal to a high value woman. Sometimes they are even the opposite, as we see. I don't want to be high in status, I want to be in average status all my life. But I want to be high value, and don't give myself to anything that goes against God's will.
But I am also not a hippocrite, and I know that the first of all commandments is love. Sometimes it is better for two people to separate, when they can't make each other happy anymore. People change, sometimes couples deviate from each other in intrests and goals. A marriage makes sense only with shared goals, no other way.
I love the catholic church, but God is far beyond their leaders. They seem not to understand anything of life. This is because they live in their own life, far away from us. They follow their own rules, not the rules of love. Their hearts are made of stone.
unobtainium
It's easy to see the Cathars as facilitating the ongoing romantic feels but I wonder how genuine the intention was.
Actually having a physical relationship with a partner isn't an idealogical choice but a biological imperative to keep our species going.
I've watched one of your videos because a freind recommended it to me and I just can't stop.
This series in particular about romance really resonated with me. The most intense love affair I ever had was with a married (unobtainable) woman. We had a relationship for a while but iit was impossible. Eventually we split paths and it broke my heart, it was also the most intense love I've ever felt.
I remember reading books of old about romance such as Romeo and Juliet and thinking "wow this is just like what I felt" haha. You hit the nail on the head, now it all makes sense.
Great work and research!
why did you split paths? Did you consummate the relationship with her? Did you feel guilty? Did she feel guilty for cheating on her husband?
I saw a video of a Japanesewoman who cheating saying that she felt like she was Juliet
Thank you for making the link between Cathars and romantic love. The Cathars were opposed to procreation. They were also opposed to the creator God of the Old Testament, called the demi-urge. They only worshipped the loving God of the New Testament. It was a very widespread movement in Southern France but then they were all killed for their beliefs by armies from northern France or converted to Catholicism.
Good video. Point of order about the Cathars; they weren't 'pagans', they were Christians. But not Catholic. And that was their only problem.
Brilliant! Did you read book on Limerance by Fisher?
I did not -- but it sounds like it would be up my alley.
@@psychacks / Read it you’ll love it! Limerance makes ppl temporarily crazy
Otherwise known as limerence. Think Don Quixote and Dulcinea or even Judge Roy Bean and Lily Langtry.
"often exaggerated virtues" lol, Dulcinea del Toboso.
Bathsheba Everdene is another interesting literary case
I get obsessed with people on tinder but when I talk to them I always lose interest
Hello Dr. Taraban, I hope you are fine.
You mention a significant issue, romanticism. I didn't know the romanticism idea originated from a sect until you tell. But it originated from somewhere by someone and has disastered many many lives. Its extensions keep affecting people in a variety of forms, such as Hollywood, Disney, romance novels, rom-com, etc. As much as love and affection are important and vital for human beings; putting someone on a pedestal, adoring and worshipping someone, and accepting them no matter what happens are not normal. Nobody is perfect as well as nobody is indispensable. This sect you mention and its extensions expose people to the idea that pursuing and embracing "love" no matter what happens. Therefore, there are a lot of people who suffer from this distorted idea, let alone a relationship is being formed.
The primary function of relationships is building a family and reproduction, not some "heroic, divine, agonized" ideas. Our ancestors, ancient ancestors knew this truth and they lived their life on this basis. Today, we are exposed to this distorted idea. Love and affection are important as I said but they are, especially romanticism, not the primary goal of humanity. They are just supplements for reproduction and new generations while building rooted and powerful families.
Thank you for your work Dr. Taraban, keep informing us with your wisdom.
The chivalric knights were proto-simps.
A Chinese proverb says, "A mistress is better than a wife, an affair is better than a mistress, an affair that cannot be materialized is better than an affair."
I will take the blue pill over slavery too. That's a pretty convincing way to get me to write poetry.
The blue is slavery. It is slavery to your own emotions, the unobtainable women
LOL the OG simps - very interesting content
Haha. It's kinda like that.
I'm sure I read somewhere about this and the troubadours who popularised these concepts. The Cahars aspect is key, but here Romantic Love does not mean what it means today. It was a religious metaphor.....(Power of Myth, Joseph Campbell)
I chose my wife. She's still completely unobtainable to me. Always will be I predict.
This comment has me rolling! Well done 😂
Thanks for this video
Envy and longing are not so different. Study type Four on the Enneagram of personality types.
Brilliant, thanks. In modern terms the knights were love addicts it seems.
One has to imagine romantic cultists happy
Haven’t looked into any of this in detail but it is my understanding that the knights (low level aristocrats and bouncers for the king) applied this noble criteria only to women within their own socio economic caste. Commoner women were fair game and subject to be raped if presented the opportunity.
Helpful...
Illuminating
If the adorer was to win the lottery, then the adored suddenely becomes obtainable. However with obtainability, the romance can often wear off quickly. If it doesn't, the the adorer may well be suffering from mental disonance or even mental illness. Then he is heading into very turblent waters.
Explains why they lose interest immediately if you get like this.
Well, at the very same era, the devotion of Virgin Mary rose, so I wouldn't say it was something exclusively connected to the Cathars, nor it was a denial of marriage. It was the late medieval France. It was aristocracy and troubadours. It was (re)discovered ideal of femininity.
Haha, that's me!
Question Doc-----do you think that emotional pursuit is now evolved into our DNA sequencing where we think it is our normal?---Charles
Hm. I think it depends on what you mean by "emotional pursuit." Romance is probably too recent an invention to have changed genetic sequencing. However, we almost certainly are hardwired for certain sexual/mating behaviors and strategies from our evolutionary past.
So simping had been going on for thousands of years...
Were the knights single men who were likely to be killed in battle before they had the chance to marry? Could a man with a wife indulge in romantic love for another woman?
Very good.. how this relates to platonic love?
Is that why in this generation people go after people who are already in relationships? Or has this always existed just that it has become a more common thing?
Every artist needs a muse.
Wow that’s crazy.
Is there a book where I could learn more about it? I’ve just got “Love in the Western World” but are there other books?
I don't think the Cathars were a cult - and this is very interesting...and insightful.
"Cult" can have a pejorative connotation, but that squares with their persecution as heretics at the hands of the Catholic Church. "Sect" or "branch" doesn't have the negative connotation, but does suggest that the Cathars were still a part of Catholicism. So no perfect word here. Thanks for watching.
Did these guys created simp culture? Or was it ingrained into us