You might be far from the main road on Australia's Canning Stock Route, but in Southern Africa, help is never too far away. While it’s understandable to prefer a vehicle stripped of modern features that can fail and leave you in limp mode, you’d have to venture much deeper into Africa for this to become a real concern. Having driven from London to Cape Town via West and Central Africa, I can say with confidence: once you’ve made it through the Congo, you’ll never truly be stranded.
Here in Germany Ineos are selling about as many Grenadiers as Lamborghini sell sports cars, so yes my Trialmaster feels very exotic, and I dont have a problem with that. BTW we have more BMW engineers around here than I can wave a big stick at, so no worries on that front! Horses for courses.
The Canning Stock would be a good test. Is anyone planning on doing it in a Grenadier in the near future do we know of? We’d be up for if if we were coming to Aus but we just don’t have the spondoolies to make it that far South on our trip and do Aus and NZ at the moment unfortunately.
Andrew, I rkn you'll get one (Grenadier) eventually. I can sense it. It'd be the best thing in the world to watch you pick it to pieces, make it to your tastes... and tell the world about it!
Good discussion. Mission is everything. Here in North America, the 70 series is an exotic. Sure, unlikely to fail, but the nearest spare parts are in Australia. We drive subpar Toyotas like my Tacoma because here, that is the best non-exotic that we can buy (yes, Jeep Gladiator too now).
I agree, I think it is an exotic, I live in Nova Scotia Canada, there are only two dealerships in Canada and the nearest one is in Toronto over 1800km away. so depending on where you live or are exploring, the vehicle may be exotic. A Hilux would be an exotic in Canada, but a Tacoma would be an exotic in Australia. I have a Jeep JT Rubicon, it would be an exotic in Affric, so an old Defender 110 may be a better choice, but that old Defender 110 would be considered an exotic in Canada now. I do agree about the Ineos being an exotic with this definition as we have to ask if dealership support is necessary for you. I would never take a stock vehicle on a truly remote and hard trip - every vehicle has some weak points that the aftermarket community has a fix for, so I would only take something that I have built and can repair myself. Great video.
Great points. Completely agree. Exotic depends on where you are. Quite honestly, a troopy or 70 series would be ultra exotic here in Canada (I’m in Canada too) Old style Defender 1000% is. Btw have you seen their prices here? My 4runner would be exotic in ZA or Oz. If it were t for the exotic price tag, I might entertain an ineos but thankfully they’ve priced me out. Lol Great discussion
Did you hear about Ineos supporting one owner who was overlanding through Kazakhstan with his Grenadier that had a failed front prop-shaft joint? The part was flown to the Grenadier by helicopter and fitted by two Ineos mechanics in-situ. It took just over 2 hours after he’d contacted Ineos via satfone. Exceptional warranty service, great for brand reputation and confidence when travelling remotely. I think you need to get one Andrew, build it out and take it on some adventures in Oz. Buy the cheaper two-seat commercial variant, with the rough-pack to maximise off-road capability while keeping a check on the cost / unnecessary luxury features..
here in the states all our best off road wagons /s.u.v. 's most are more 3 row luxury family school bus with independent rear axle for a smooth ride and leg room for the 3rd row , the gen 5 Toyota 4Runner and Lexus GX 470 V8 are our best wish we had a troopy like van in the U.S.
Great hearing your thoughts again. If I recall only the older totally standard G wagon did complete the Canning Stock Route without failure, no mods and probably 15 or 16 inch wheels! Agree with your comments but that's the way of the world, all new diesels are common rail with ECU's regulating a precise amount fuel for greater performance than the old diesels. Mine too, if it breaks down in the outback I'm in trouble. The old diesels can't meet the emission standards which is why Ineos had to go down the common rail ECU route, they didn't want to but simply had to for EU compliance.
Good show like always. Now Andrew, you've made your point with the Inios similarly to the skinny tall tires. But now you are in the position to promote changes and like you've said so many times that the safe options are as follows; common cars and common tires. You've made your point and now we want to see you go out and test what you belive are good options even if they are not as common. F.x. the Inios, tall-skinny tires and so on. Keep up the good work!
You say it best yourself; "It's an excotic and that is my challange with it" Just like the Range Rover, it was a challange because it was so old and you made the best show because it was a challange.
I have a W460 250D. W461 is continuation of that series from around 1992. In the same time W463 emerged. I remember once my mechanic ordered some parts to replace worn out ones in steering system. Ones that were delivered did not fit. Their diameter was narrower. Than we found out they were for W463. Mine allso has factory coil springs marked in white (heavy duty). There is also red and green mark. Car battery is under the bonnet and in W463 under the rear seat. Mine has manual 4WD ( when engaged max speed is cca 80km/h), 4WD low range, front and rear differential locks (manual, hydraulic). No central diff. The car can go almost anywhere. In 20 years of ownership has never left me stranded.
Andrew if you build a car any car in Europe your hands are tied by EU legislation just look at the myriad of so called safety systems that are retired along with the emmisions etc etc we are not allowed to build a simple car anymore. PS loving my grenadier for the last20 months even if it’s slightly exotic.
@4xoverland other then BMW engines which other company would have supplied Ineos with engines that would meet your Toyota criteria of service and parts availability? Keeping in mind that new Toyota engine like the V6 in the LC300 is also suffering from delay in parts availability
Thank you for engaging Andrew. I fully understand the exotic label and sympathise with you on the over complication of modern vehicles.. nobody wants stop start lane change or any of the other exotic things that legislation have forced upon us. Also the engines are so complicated purely because of emission standards give me a simple Land Rover any day I guess I’ll just put up with my grenadier.
- I'm not a G Waggon Fan Boy but the Gs on the Canning were driven by changing Journalists and the speed was quite fast and almost like a race. For the heavy loaden 463 with roof tent it was nonsense to take no proper tire dimensions. I'm not sure but I'm afraid that 16" wheels where not possible on these 463s. The 461 on this trip was driven by Mr. Erwin Wronisch (R.I.P. :-() from Graz. He was one of the most experienced G Offraod drivers in the world as he was for decades one of the test drivers in the G factory in Graz and did a lot of drivers instructions for civilian and military G drivers all over the world too. (as long as I have something to say on the Schöckl Test track - we will drive 16" wheels on demonstrations .." )That where his words some years ago. - the main reason that Ineos did not send a Grenadier with you on the "Friends on the Canning" was, that you highlighted the trip as a test if the Range Rover Classic could still do it. Ineos was aware that the RR was the star on this trip and not the other cars and even not the Grenadier. That was the reason.
Couldnt agree more. I had 2011 2.4 and 2014 2.2 Defender 110, sold them and got myself 300tdi. Always had that little voice in the back of my head sayin, what if this thing breaks down. I know every nut and bolt on a 300tdi, no matter what happens I would be able to determine what issue is. Common sense would choose Land Cruiser HZJ, but heart will always go Defender.
Andrew, expedition centre in Sydney does a rooftop conversion fro a grenadier. So it would be like your troopy, but different. Could be good for the channel!
Any vehicle built in numbers below 20,000 units per year is an exotic. That includes all Land Cruisers. If they're only sold regionally that makes them more exotic.
@4xoverland not according to Wikipedia. The number in Australia for ALL Land Cruisers combined is about half (14,350ish) that number. Most being the Prado'. It is true that the 300 and 250 are selling like crazy in Japan, all 70-Series combined are only about 5000 units world wide annually. That is exotic.
I agree, more and more of even the stalwarts of overlanding suitable vehicles are becoming more exotic. The newest version of the Land Cruiser 70 series has also taken a big step (comparatively speaking) in becoming exotic. The new Defender took an even bigger step from its predecessor, but its predecessor had also become more exotic in its final versions. You are right Andrew. To avoid it is to buy an older vehicle. There is however a downside to that. In places like Japan, you will be penalised with higher road tax and insurance as an older vehicle will lack all of the safety features (e.g., collision avoidance amongst others) , making the vehicle very expensive to own. Couple that with the cost of building up a stock vehicle to be a good overlanding vehicle and suddenly the gap between those who want to do it but can't afford it and people that can do it starts to widen. to such a degree that one is forced into a situation where you buy a new more exotic vehicle or give up entirely. The former choice being the softer one and the latter very sad. The less people that can take the less beaten path and explore this wonderful planet, the less people there will be that understand it and experience feeling its rhythm. I find that thought immensely depressing.
Yea, here in the US, Mercedes and BMW are both basically exotic. Even though there are dealerships everywhere, the parts for most European cars have to be shipped in and can take weeks.
It's an exotic in Germany as well, even to std Toyota dealers. The thing is, get the the car for overlanding that is an exotic in the least number of countries. That is Defenders and 70 series.
great episode and great lesson about vehicles. I would expect this in the workshop channel. but that is the travel channel. and then you have the overland workshop course. it is so confusing. I think you need to rebrand or rename your channels so it makes sense again
Well said, for myself the Grenadier that started off as a Defender workhorse replacement turned into a Range Rover competitor to take the kids to school. What do I mean? There’s no basic model available to just go offroad and work every day, there’s no way I would put a few sheep or a few calves in the back and take them to the Vets in the cattle yards for a check up like numerous people did with the original defenders. My parents would throw a few sheep in the back of our new FJ40 back in the 70’s. My 2023 Troopy in standard New Zealand spec is still a workhorse and there’s room for a good number of sheep in the back.
Ineos were very aware of this label in the early days. They countered the apprehension with a tiered approach to both parts & technical support. Parts were to be no more than 48 hours away. Technical support was going to be available to every owner with dealer level technical details via an online portal, HQ technical support staff would be available by direct telephone, and then there were to be "flying spanners" who would travel the world if necessary. Sadly, the reality of what's been delivered is very different. I waited 4 weeks for a common failing part. There's still no online portal nearly two years after sales first began, no HQ telephone support, and talk of "flying spanners" belongs in a conversation with the abominable snowman, the Lock Ness monster and sightings of Lord Lucan.
Andrew, go buy a Grenadier and install a 1HD-FTE engine and there you have it, an "unexoticatised" Ineos. Or just buy a BMW engine rebuild kit of parts ready to ship wherever you may break down. But DONT lose the electronic key, they weely weely cost a mozza and might take 3 months to get to you.......
All modern cars are now so loaded with safety features, etc they are all exotic. Ineos tried to reduce the number of semiconductors to the bare minimum in order to keep the Grenadier a more basic vehicle.
They might have tried but somewhere along the way, they failed. Look at how the winch, rear power and diffs locks are all software defined. All choices by Ineos and totally unnecessary.
Well I guess this whole discussion depends highly on how you define "remote places". For Africa and Australia this all might be true. But what about Europe, Asia (besides the middle east) as well as North- and South America. Different discussion for sure but very important if you want to actually travel "the world"
In Europe you don't need advanced 4x4 to travel long distances. In most places you actually need proper 4x4 it would be illegal to drive. In the US the situation is similar. You need 99% of the time a vehicle to get you to the trailhead. Of course there is a case for people who want to do off-roaing as entertainment but this is a different scenario.
W460 G Wagon driver from europe here, I agree 100%. G Wagons are extremely capable and very reliable vehicles but you notice in many engineering and design choices that this car was designed and built in europe. What do I mean? For example axle servicability, especially W460s running bigger tires are very prone to premature wheel bearing or kingpin bearing failures. I have rebuilt my front axle in my driveway but I wouldn't want to do it in the middle of the forest or along the canning stock route. It is possible to do this with regular on board tools but simply a lot harder and more time consuming than on a 70 Series or even a Defender. Rear axle is almost impossible to do in the bush, you basically need to carry specialty tool or makeup a hydraulic press using a jack. Also W460 G Wagons basically use regular passenger car engines and transmissions with minor modifications. They are very robust but I think especially old HZJ75s Landcruisers have much stronger transmissions. To close the circle when driving a modern car like a Grenadier you face not getting spares and much more things to go wrong at once. I'd be much more confident in a 2.8 GD 70 Series where atleast all driveline components, bearings etc are either the same or very similar to the other models.
If you want to build a new car saleable in world markets meeting the most stringent of emissions and noise etc, it is impossible to build a simple car. In particular true with diesels and the complexity of meeting diesel emissions targets with a plethora of control systems. Going into the outback do you take a vehicle that is more likely to break down based on component age or do you take a new vehicle that has less miles under the wheels and is less likely to actually stop due to that even if it goes to limp home strategy. It’s an interesting problem. There is I’m sure always examples of both having people stranded.
just to give this a thought. looking at where automotive goes nowadays its a matter of time that even the icons disappear. this will cut into parts supply as well while the number of used vehicles decrease over time. ineos did good on tackling old values of 4x4 driving but question is if they can become relevant on international scales to remain in longer perspectives. mercedes still has a worldwide service network and the agricultural G is covered by mercedes trucks, some versions of the sprinter share parts, they are used by wealthy NGO's worldwide. now in theory, if i would start a new car company like ineos did, i'd rather approach it a different way. would make ladder frames that adopt to existing parts bins if patents expired. or buy in licences and then offering this as knock down kits in return. it can be adopted or labeled as whatever one needs a ladder frame for, community vehicles, overlander, military, agriculture, vip transport, mallcrawler. one just has to add the idea of coachbuilding. we see such tendencys on delivery vans already, resulting in badge engineering and a huge engine choice across brand borders, while basic parts remain the same. this should happen on a handful 4x4 platforms. a wise man once said "if toyota stops making the troop carrier, africa will face problems..."
Question - if the Grenadier were to not be an exotic where would they have obtained the engine and gearbox? Genuinely interested who will sell their components to other brands other than BMW. Pretty sure Toyota wouldn’t.
It’s just flat true however did miss on something that’s happening with bmw engine and auto box i think we will find engine parts readily available due to all conversions are getting done rest of it wheel bearings diffs definitely exotic this said I put Barra turbo in me baby 60 series buy parts are nearly every wreckers thou 😱👍🤣
I reckon it is an Exotic; mainly because it was meant to Replace the modern Defender and SUCEED the Classic Defender, but has failed to do so. Personally, when it comes to 4WDs; I much prefer NOT to go beyond the '90s.
I do not think they did the correct marketing research at INEOS, it would have shown them that the Grenadier was a niche low volume product and that going into mass production would end in hurt and rethinks.
Ineos aimed to sell 30k units per year worldwide. No way is that “mass production”. Most auto manufacturers aim at > 200k units yearly per model. So it was conceived to fill a nische.
Your Africa build let you down in many ways and you complained that it had so many flaws and faults that it was frustrating and unsatisfying. How then are we to understand that it’s the best way to build the perfect vehicle?
The Grenadier is an “Exotic”, fine. Valid opinion and Mr. ST. Pierre White’s opinions are far more authoritative than most in this space. But, to lament that Ineos didn’t build a car that essentially no government in the world would allow to sold in their country is of limited benefit as much as I share it. Has Ineos’ engineering philosophy of “graceful degradation” fallen short? Has Ineos avoided doing the Canning because of a lack of confidence? Canning is 1,850 Km. Ronny Dahl did 12,000 on his 6 month loaner Grenadier from Ineos without breaking anything. That requires far more confidence than a factory team of engineers and mechanics driving the Canning or anywhere else in the world. Did Mr. Dahl do the canning in the Grenadier? No, but so what, the real question is would he? So, I think Mr. St. Pierre White should ask him?
It is unfortunate that almost everythingnis turning exotic. Its why i went and found a 95 Discovery 1 with a manual gearbox. Simple changes to make it reliable and cheap repairs to makenit just a littlw more durable and i go everywhere all these exotics go, at half the price and none of the anxiety!
Love the new vehicles that are coming out on the 4x4 market, but would never buy one, I have an old army land rover, it's a spanner and a hammer fix, for me that suits my needs, find the new stuff just a cost bucket, too many sensors, that tell you something is wrong, eye ball number 1, hearing and feel tell me when my landy is not right.
my opininion most 4x4's today are people that live in the pretend delusion of looking the part though 100k to br functional off road whether you run a inios, g-wagon, landrover 80,. 90, 110, land cruiser 40, 60. 80.100 series, .. i never use petrol options fo refill because it limits where get spare fuel; land rover do exist outside the metro area howeverr what't in stock mimight a jerry rig to work more electrical crap you tak on the more crap to fail; irf i owned an inios i would drive where it'd designed to functionallt work in the city to work in places outside the metro area lwb models are a need as is long ranrange for inios to practical here you need access toyota 6 cyl disels and may nr take a leaf frome the preentie land rovers
You're not wrong, but you're not really saying anything interesting either unfortunately. Anything new is exotic, anything unfamilar is exotic, all the new safety tech and software built into each new gen of vehicles is exotic, tomorrow is exotic. Thirty years from now, if people are still exploring wildernesses in vehicles at all, we won't be doing it in petrol powered troop carriers designed in the 1970s.
There's no such thing as a true 4x4 from the show room floor. Far too much electric crap. Bring back manual gear box and manual 4x4 transfer. It won't happen, the companies want to make money and lots of it from the sale of spares and repairs. I'll stick with my ancient Navara.
You might be far from the main road on Australia's Canning Stock Route, but in Southern Africa, help is never too far away. While it’s understandable to prefer a vehicle stripped of modern features that can fail and leave you in limp mode, you’d have to venture much deeper into Africa for this to become a real concern. Having driven from London to Cape Town via West and Central Africa, I can say with confidence: once you’ve made it through the Congo, you’ll never truly be stranded.
Utter ignorant tosh!
Here in Germany Ineos are selling about as many Grenadiers as Lamborghini sell sports cars, so yes my Trialmaster feels very exotic, and I dont have a problem with that. BTW we have more BMW engineers around here than I can wave a big stick at, so no worries on that front! Horses for courses.
The Canning Stock would be a good test. Is anyone planning on doing it in a Grenadier in the near future do we know of?
We’d be up for if if we were coming to Aus but we just don’t have the spondoolies to make it that far South on our trip and do Aus and NZ at the moment unfortunately.
Dear Andrew, you are a true exotic !
Cheers
Andrew, I rkn you'll get one (Grenadier) eventually. I can sense it. It'd be the best thing in the world to watch you pick it to pieces, make it to your tastes... and tell the world about it!
Good discussion. Mission is everything. Here in North America, the 70 series is an exotic. Sure, unlikely to fail, but the nearest spare parts are in Australia. We drive subpar Toyotas like my Tacoma because here, that is the best non-exotic that we can buy (yes, Jeep Gladiator too now).
I agree, I think it is an exotic, I live in Nova Scotia Canada, there are only two dealerships in Canada and the nearest one is in Toronto over 1800km away. so depending on where you live or are exploring, the vehicle may be exotic. A Hilux would be an exotic in Canada, but a Tacoma would be an exotic in Australia. I have a Jeep JT Rubicon, it would be an exotic in Affric, so an old Defender 110 may be a better choice, but that old Defender 110 would be considered an exotic in Canada now. I do agree about the Ineos being an exotic with this definition as we have to ask if dealership support is necessary for you. I would never take a stock vehicle on a truly remote and hard trip - every vehicle has some weak points that the aftermarket community has a fix for, so I would only take something that I have built and can repair myself. Great video.
Great points. Completely agree. Exotic depends on where you are. Quite honestly, a troopy or 70 series would be ultra exotic here in Canada (I’m in Canada too)
Old style Defender 1000% is. Btw have you seen their prices here?
My 4runner would be exotic in ZA or Oz.
If it were t for the exotic price tag, I might entertain an ineos but thankfully they’ve priced me out. Lol
Great discussion
I have my camp setup in 20 seconds Andrew and 2 awnings.
Parts available WORLDWIDE. Plus I can go 99% of the places your Landcruiser will go.
Did you hear about Ineos supporting one owner who was overlanding through Kazakhstan with his Grenadier that had a failed front prop-shaft joint? The part was flown to the Grenadier by helicopter and fitted by two Ineos mechanics in-situ. It took just over 2 hours after he’d contacted Ineos via satfone. Exceptional warranty service, great for brand reputation and confidence when travelling remotely. I think you need to get one Andrew, build it out and take it on some adventures in Oz. Buy the cheaper two-seat commercial variant, with the rough-pack to maximise off-road capability while keeping a check on the cost / unnecessary luxury features..
….and maybe fit the Alu-cab roof now that it’s been designed….
Got a link for that story?
Great points Andrew.
"I have ice cold beers... and one of them is in my hands" 😇🤙👍
I agree with keeping as many older 4x4s alive precisely due to their simplicity and ease of maintenance.
here in the states all our best off road wagons /s.u.v. 's most are more 3 row luxury family school bus with independent rear axle for a smooth ride and leg room for the 3rd row , the gen 5 Toyota 4Runner and Lexus GX 470 V8 are our best wish we had a troopy like van in the U.S.
Great hearing your thoughts again. If I recall only the older totally standard G wagon did complete the Canning Stock Route without failure, no mods and probably 15 or 16 inch wheels!
Agree with your comments but that's the way of the world, all new diesels are common rail with ECU's regulating a precise amount fuel for greater performance than the old diesels. Mine too, if it breaks down in the outback I'm in trouble. The old diesels can't meet the emission standards which is why Ineos had to go down the common rail ECU route, they didn't want to but simply had to for EU compliance.
Good show like always. Now Andrew, you've made your point with the Inios similarly to the skinny tall tires. But now you are in the position to promote changes and like you've said so many times that the safe options are as follows; common cars and common tires.
You've made your point and now we want to see you go out and test what you belive are good options even if they are not as common. F.x. the Inios, tall-skinny tires and so on.
Keep up the good work!
You say it best yourself; "It's an excotic and that is my challange with it"
Just like the Range Rover, it was a challange because it was so old and you made the best show because it was a challange.
I have a W460 250D. W461 is continuation of that series from around 1992. In the same time W463 emerged. I remember once my mechanic ordered some parts to replace worn out ones in steering system. Ones that were delivered did not fit. Their diameter was narrower. Than we found out they were for W463. Mine allso has factory coil springs marked in white (heavy duty). There is also red and green mark. Car battery is under the bonnet and in W463 under the rear seat. Mine has manual 4WD ( when engaged max speed is cca 80km/h), 4WD low range, front and rear differential locks (manual, hydraulic). No central diff. The car can go almost anywhere. In 20 years of ownership has never left me stranded.
Andrew if you build a car any car in Europe your hands are tied by EU legislation just look at the myriad of so called safety systems that are retired along with the emmisions etc etc we are not allowed to build a simple car anymore. PS loving my grenadier for the last20 months even if it’s slightly exotic.
Grenadier is not exotic in Europe if you are to understand my meaning of the word.
@4xoverland other then BMW engines which other company would have supplied Ineos with engines that would meet your Toyota criteria of service and parts availability? Keeping in mind that new Toyota engine like the V6 in the LC300 is also suffering from delay in parts availability
Thank you for engaging Andrew. I fully understand the exotic label and sympathise with you on the over complication of modern vehicles.. nobody wants stop start lane change or any of the other exotic things that legislation have forced upon us. Also the engines are so complicated purely because of emission standards give me a simple Land Rover any day I guess I’ll just put up with my grenadier.
- I'm not a G Waggon Fan Boy but the Gs on the Canning were driven by changing Journalists and the speed was quite fast and almost like a race. For the heavy loaden 463 with roof tent it was nonsense to take no proper tire dimensions. I'm not sure but I'm afraid that 16" wheels where not possible on these 463s. The 461 on this trip was driven by Mr. Erwin Wronisch (R.I.P. :-() from Graz. He was one of the most experienced G Offraod drivers in the world as he was for decades one of the test drivers in the G factory in Graz and did a lot of drivers instructions for civilian and military G drivers all over the world too. (as long as I have something to say on the Schöckl Test track - we will drive 16" wheels on demonstrations .." )That where his words some years ago.
- the main reason that Ineos did not send a Grenadier with you on the "Friends on the Canning" was, that you highlighted the trip as a test if the Range Rover Classic could still do it. Ineos was aware that the RR was the star on this trip and not the other cars and even not the Grenadier. That was the reason.
Dirk Heilman, when CEO of Ineos Automotive promised to make a trip along the Canning in a Grenadier. Shame he never got to do it before moving on.😢
Couldnt agree more. I had 2011 2.4 and 2014 2.2 Defender 110, sold them and got myself 300tdi. Always had that little voice in the back of my head sayin, what if this thing breaks down. I know every nut and bolt on a 300tdi, no matter what happens I would be able to determine what issue is. Common sense would choose Land Cruiser HZJ, but heart will always go Defender.
Andrew, expedition centre in Sydney does a rooftop conversion fro a grenadier. So it would be like your troopy, but different. Could be good for the channel!
To summarize Exotic = modern for you. Everyone can give words the definition they want.
But I believe his modern 4 cyl troopy isn’t exotic. (By his definition). However it is “modern”
Watch the video again and this time listen to the words being said.
@@theslimeylimey no thanks cant go through this again but please enlight me !
Any vehicle built in numbers below 20,000 units per year is an exotic. That includes all Land Cruisers. If they're only sold regionally that makes them more exotic.
Over 30 000 Land Cruiser 200s were sold every year in Australia alone. Land Cruiser are not exotics in countries where they are sold.
@4xoverland not according to Wikipedia. The number in Australia for ALL Land Cruisers combined is about half (14,350ish) that number. Most being the Prado'. It is true that the 300 and 250 are selling like crazy in Japan, all 70-Series combined are only about 5000 units world wide annually. That is exotic.
@@fabulousoffroaddesigns5080
By definition Exotic has nothing to do with numbers
Probably your most compelling argument yet. I think you're more influential than most in this arena. Well said and good work mate.
I agree, more and more of even the stalwarts of overlanding suitable vehicles are becoming more exotic. The newest version of the Land Cruiser 70 series has also taken a big step (comparatively speaking) in becoming exotic. The new Defender took an even bigger step from its predecessor, but its predecessor had also become more exotic in its final versions. You are right Andrew. To avoid it is to buy an older vehicle. There is however a downside to that. In places like Japan, you will be penalised with higher road tax and insurance as an older vehicle will lack all of the safety features (e.g., collision avoidance amongst others) , making the vehicle very expensive to own. Couple that with the cost of building up a stock vehicle to be a good overlanding vehicle and suddenly the gap between those who want to do it but can't afford it and people that can do it starts to widen. to such a degree that one is forced into a situation where you buy a new more exotic vehicle or give up entirely. The former choice being the softer one and the latter very sad. The less people that can take the less beaten path and explore this wonderful planet, the less people there will be that understand it and experience feeling its rhythm. I find that thought immensely depressing.
Great discussion.
Thanks for sharing and taking us along
Lovely ep , but spot on
Yea, here in the US, Mercedes and BMW are both basically exotic. Even though there are dealerships everywhere, the parts for most European cars have to be shipped in and can take weeks.
The Land Cruiser is an exotic in a lot of places. Try to find spares for it in Iceland...
This is what I am saying. If a car isn't found where you are travelling, it becomes an exotic. Irrespective of the badge on the grille.
It's an exotic in Germany as well, even to std Toyota dealers. The thing is, get the the car for overlanding that is an exotic in the least number of countries. That is Defenders and 70 series.
I’m happy with my Defender
great episode and great lesson about vehicles. I would expect this in the workshop channel. but that is the travel channel. and then you have the overland workshop course. it is so confusing. I think you need to rebrand or rename your channels so it makes sense again
All very sensible.
Well said, for myself the Grenadier that started off as a Defender workhorse replacement turned into a Range Rover competitor to take the kids to school.
What do I mean?
There’s no basic model available to just go offroad and work every day, there’s no way I would put a few sheep or a few calves in the back and take them to the Vets in the cattle yards for a check up like numerous people did with the original defenders.
My parents would throw a few sheep in the back of our new FJ40 back in the 70’s.
My 2023 Troopy in standard New Zealand spec is still a workhorse and there’s room for a good number of sheep in the back.
"exotic" in overlanding = can't find parts. A jeep, a Chevy, etc are all "exotic" in certain parts of the world. All context dependent. 😆
Ineos were very aware of this label in the early days. They countered the apprehension with a tiered approach to both parts & technical support.
Parts were to be no more than 48 hours away.
Technical support was going to be available to every owner with dealer level technical details via an online portal, HQ technical support staff would be available by direct telephone, and then there were to be "flying spanners" who would travel the world if necessary.
Sadly, the reality of what's been delivered is very different.
I waited 4 weeks for a common failing part. There's still no online portal nearly two years after sales first began, no HQ telephone support, and talk of "flying spanners" belongs in a conversation with the abominable snowman, the Lock Ness monster and sightings of Lord Lucan.
Andrew, go buy a Grenadier and install a 1HD-FTE engine and there you have it, an "unexoticatised" Ineos. Or just buy a BMW engine rebuild kit of parts ready to ship wherever you may break down. But DONT lose the electronic key, they weely weely cost a mozza and might take 3 months to get to you.......
All modern cars are now so loaded with safety features, etc they are all exotic.
Ineos tried to reduce the number of semiconductors to the bare minimum in order to keep the Grenadier a more basic vehicle.
They might have tried but somewhere along the way, they failed. Look at how the winch, rear power and diffs locks are all software defined. All choices by Ineos and totally unnecessary.
@@stevegreen101 you need to Robert Peppers interview with Ineos tech to understand the how and why's
Well I guess this whole discussion depends highly on how you define "remote places". For Africa and Australia this all might be true. But what about Europe, Asia (besides the middle east) as well as North- and South America. Different discussion for sure but very important if you want to actually travel "the world"
In Europe you don't need advanced 4x4 to travel long distances. In most places you actually need proper 4x4 it would be illegal to drive.
In the US the situation is similar. You need 99% of the time a vehicle to get you to the trailhead.
Of course there is a case for people who want to do off-roaing as entertainment but this is a different scenario.
What Word would Describe the Hi-Ace?
W460 G Wagon driver from europe here, I agree 100%. G Wagons are extremely capable and very reliable vehicles but you notice in many engineering and design choices that this car was designed and built in europe.
What do I mean? For example axle servicability, especially W460s running bigger tires are very prone to premature wheel bearing or kingpin bearing failures. I have rebuilt my front axle in my driveway but I wouldn't want to do it in the middle of the forest or along the canning stock route. It is possible to do this with regular on board tools but simply a lot harder and more time consuming than on a 70 Series or even a Defender. Rear axle is almost impossible to do in the bush, you basically need to carry specialty tool or makeup a hydraulic press using a jack.
Also W460 G Wagons basically use regular passenger car engines and transmissions with minor modifications. They are very robust but I think especially old HZJ75s Landcruisers have much stronger transmissions.
To close the circle when driving a modern car like a Grenadier you face not getting spares and much more things to go wrong at once. I'd be much more confident in a 2.8 GD 70 Series where atleast all driveline components, bearings etc are either the same or very similar to the other models.
If you want to build a new car saleable in world markets meeting the most stringent of emissions and noise etc, it is impossible to build a simple car. In particular true with diesels and the complexity of meeting diesel emissions targets with a plethora of control systems. Going into the outback do you take a vehicle that is more likely to break down based on component age or do you take a new vehicle that has less miles under the wheels and is less likely to actually stop due to that even if it goes to limp home strategy. It’s an interesting problem. There is I’m sure always examples of both having people stranded.
just to give this a thought. looking at where automotive goes nowadays its a matter of time that even the icons disappear. this will cut into parts supply as well while the number of used vehicles decrease over time. ineos did good on tackling old values of 4x4 driving but question is if they can become relevant on international scales to remain in longer perspectives. mercedes still has a worldwide service network and the agricultural G is covered by mercedes trucks, some versions of the sprinter share parts, they are used by wealthy NGO's worldwide.
now in theory, if i would start a new car company like ineos did, i'd rather approach it a different way. would make ladder frames that adopt to existing parts bins if patents expired. or buy in licences and then offering this as knock down kits in return. it can be adopted or labeled as whatever one needs a ladder frame for, community vehicles, overlander, military, agriculture, vip transport, mallcrawler. one just has to add the idea of coachbuilding. we see such tendencys on delivery vans already, resulting in badge engineering and a huge engine choice across brand borders, while basic parts remain the same. this should happen on a handful 4x4 platforms. a wise man once said "if toyota stops making the troop carrier, africa will face problems..."
which engine does your africa troopy have?
1HZ Straight 6 Diesel naturally aspirated
Question - if the Grenadier were to not be an exotic where would they have obtained the engine and gearbox? Genuinely interested who will sell their components to other brands other than BMW. Pretty sure Toyota wouldn’t.
Toyota certainly supply engines and gearboxes to Lotus.
Iveco would sell the 3 Liter 4 Cylinder F1C like in the Daily. For this engine there are all kind of gearboxes - manual and Allison.
Another Toyota sponsorship
It’s just flat true however did miss on something that’s happening with bmw engine and auto box i think we will find engine parts readily available due to all conversions are getting done rest of it wheel bearings diffs definitely exotic this said I put Barra turbo in me baby 60 series buy parts are nearly every wreckers thou 😱👍🤣
I reckon it is an Exotic; mainly because it was meant to Replace the modern Defender and SUCEED the Classic Defender,
but has failed to do so. Personally, when it comes to 4WDs; I much prefer NOT to go beyond the '90s.
@ Andrew: What ever your new projects might be - please, please, please not another J7 built. 🙂
I do not think they did the correct marketing research at INEOS, it would have shown them that the Grenadier was a niche low volume product and that going into mass production would end in hurt and rethinks.
Ineos aimed to sell 30k units per year worldwide. No way is that “mass production”. Most auto manufacturers aim at > 200k units yearly per model. So it was conceived to fill a nische.
@@Bartraeger 15k units would have been more reasonable for current model given they have massive unsold stock.
Your Africa build let you down in many ways and you complained that it had so many flaws and faults that it was frustrating and unsatisfying. How then are we to understand that it’s the best way to build the perfect vehicle?
Parts on a g wagon are NOT easy to get - most are not in stock
The Grenadier is an “Exotic”, fine. Valid opinion and Mr. ST. Pierre White’s opinions are far more authoritative than most in this space. But, to lament that Ineos didn’t build a car that essentially no government in the world would allow to sold in their country is of limited benefit as much as I share it. Has Ineos’ engineering philosophy of “graceful degradation” fallen short? Has Ineos avoided doing the Canning because of a lack of confidence? Canning is 1,850 Km. Ronny Dahl did 12,000 on his 6 month loaner Grenadier from Ineos without breaking anything. That requires far more confidence than a factory team of engineers and mechanics driving the Canning or anywhere else in the world. Did Mr. Dahl do the canning in the Grenadier? No, but so what, the real question is would he? So, I think Mr. St. Pierre White should ask him?
It is unfortunate that almost everythingnis turning exotic. Its why i went and found a 95 Discovery 1 with a manual gearbox. Simple changes to make it reliable and cheap repairs to makenit just a littlw more durable and i go everywhere all these exotics go, at half the price and none of the anxiety!
No anxiety driving a '95 disco? I want some of whatever you're taking :)
Love the new vehicles that are coming out on the 4x4 market, but would never buy one, I have an old army land rover, it's a spanner and a hammer fix, for me that suits my needs, find the new stuff just a cost bucket, too many sensors, that tell you something is wrong, eye ball number 1, hearing and feel tell me when my landy is not right.
my opininion most 4x4's today are people that live in the pretend delusion of looking the part though 100k to br functional off road
whether you run a inios, g-wagon, landrover 80,. 90, 110, land cruiser 40, 60. 80.100 series, ..
i never use petrol options fo refill because it limits where get spare fuel;
land rover do exist outside the metro area
howeverr what't in stock mimight a jerry rig to work
more electrical crap you tak on the more crap to fail;
irf i owned an inios i would drive where it'd designed to functionallt work in the city
to work in places outside the metro area lwb models are a need as is long ranrange
for inios to practical here you need access toyota 6 cyl disels and may nr take a leaf frome the preentie land rovers
You're not wrong, but you're not really saying anything interesting either unfortunately.
Anything new is exotic, anything unfamilar is exotic, all the new safety tech and software built into each new gen of vehicles is exotic, tomorrow is exotic. Thirty years from now, if people are still exploring wildernesses in vehicles at all, we won't be doing it in petrol powered troop carriers designed in the 1970s.
There's no such thing as a true 4x4 from the show room floor. Far too much electric crap. Bring back manual gear box and manual 4x4 transfer. It won't happen, the companies want to make money and lots of it from the sale of spares and repairs. I'll stick with my ancient Navara.