Sitting for 4 Years...WILL IT START?? (Genie Lift)
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- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2024
- This 20-year old Genie Boom Lift has been taking up space in the barn for over 3 years, and the owner wants to get it running again.
He called PHAD to come on-site 3 hours away and perform a 100% guaranteed diagnosis.
Let's dive right in, verify the customer complaint, and see why this Genie refuses to fire up.
We have to think outside the box to make sure the diagnosis is 100% accurate!
ASTRO AI DC AMP CLAMP:
www.amazon.com...
Enjoy!
Ivan
I'm in 1125 and watching this the first time. Given that this vehicle has been sitting for 4 years or more before I started any diagnosis I would clean the connections to the battery and from the battery negative to the chassis. High Resistance Connections in the power leads can lead you to reading what looks like normal 12 volt and ground signals under static conditions but under draw you don't get the amplitude that you would expect. The resistance of the crank sensor position sensor was not being measured. The resistance of the wires leading to it plus the crank sensor position sensor was being measured. You need to check to make sure that there isn't a break in the cable.
Great point! Sensor was buried behind the alternator, but I did manage to sneak a long piercing probe onto the pigtail and measured the same values off camera :)
I love these construction equipment videos Ivan. Thank you !
Wow. You get it all bud. Headaches and challenges galore. Those wiring nightmares were engineered by Rube Goldberg....😳🤦🏻😩
the way you banter around resistance, capacitance, power and ground I temporarily thought I was watching TV/radio repair channel. Whoa!
I worked as an electrician in a locomotive rebuild shop many years ago , all the wiring was black with number tags on either end , what a nightmare , joined the military and on military trucks , black wiring with number tags on either end .
Now i consider myself lucky that automotive wires have colors !!
Try working on a Gottlieb pinball machine ... every wire is white, with varying color stripes to show function.
It's the black wire! LoL 🤣😆
I'm sure they're at least a hundred of these machines in similar condition, machines that could be making money for the company or person that owns them if someone like yourself would travel to diagnose and repair, as always great video
Ivan, your confidence level is off the charts. It's so impressive since you back it up with each case study. Thanks Ivan!
Only experience can build confidence, but if you don't stay humble you will get burned for sure lol
Another victory for the Genie Master. GOOD STUFF!
The equipment videos are my favorites
it is really nice watching someone diagnose something instead of guess.
Ive found that taking the time for cleaning and preparation of an engine after sitting many years makes all the difference in the world. A few drops of oil returns the compression because of loss of oil film after sitting, just cranking often does not accomplish this.of course as you show, everything electrically must be correct first. it unfortunately takes time thats hard to charge for. An excellent video, I look forward to seeing them every time !!!!
I ALWAYS disconnect the fuel or ignition , spray some penetrating oil in the intake , NOT starting fluid , then crank to build oil pressure . There is then the possibility of bad gas . If it sat a very long time , it might need all the plugs removed and some penetrating oil or Marvel Mystery Oil put in each cylinder to coat the walls and piston rings , while cranking , without the plugs .
Wow, genie case study! That is so cool to figure out what going on with the ecm, gotta love the decade box to put enough to determine the problem. You made the right call on the ckp sensor!! Great video! 👍
Thanks Josh! I rarely see failed OEM CKP sensors, but this was one of them!
You're damn right it'll start, unless it blew up and that's why it hasn't been started in awhile.
Smashing diagnostic ivan :-D, love the resistor decade box, i've had to use a pot to find a replacement for a missing or burnt black resistor.
Bodgy yes, but two values high and low give an idea of the unknown resistor.
You were adding a bias to the output to lift or drop the waveform, but the amplitude of the waveform was too low to trip the computer input.
Still fun though 😀
Im chuffed that the new sensor fixed it :-D your diag was perfect 😀.
Nice ! Thanks for sharing Ivan !
Great vid Ivan. Very interesting about the "magic box" to adjust resistance. Not something i'm going to run out and buy though. Thanks for sharing as it was a great case study.
You might already have one buried deep in your toolbox. Back in 1980's, Snap-On sold me one to test analog dash gauges.
Quite an interesting diagnosis again Ivan! Was waiting for you to rig up something to supplement the CKP Sensor signal and fire up the engine. hahahah.. Cheers!
Nice diagnosis!
I picked up one of those Astro current clamps but had to return it. There seems to be a flaw with the clamp jaws...at least with the one I received.
I was able to replicate the issue by zeroing it out and very lightly tapping the clamp against my desk. Almost every time, the current displayed would jump significantly sometimes 1-5 amps. I could re-zero it just by tapping the clamp against the desk a few times.
My Uni-T (about $20 more) is much more reliable. I also noticed the Klein has release a reasonably priced DC current clamp....I think it was about $80.
Interesting... Never seen that issue with mine 🤔
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics I exchanged it...the new one works correctly.
Tested on my bench power supply...seems to be pretty accurate down to 50mA which is pretty good.
How much of a difference do you see between your Fluke and your AstroAI? Does the Fluke do anything better than the the Astro?
Awesome job as always sir! Is there anything you can't fix? Lol thanks for sharing!
Thanks for the content. Great diagnosis.
Great diagnosis with supporting proof via the decade box.
I like how you where kudos to the computer for trying to decipher a signal from the cam positioning sensor Lol
Good job Ivan
Great job.
Good job sharing brother
The noise you see on the crank sensor is because you have the scope ground on the battery. If you ground the scope on the crank shaft sensor ground... you will vastly reduce the noise.. thats why it has its own ground.
He moved it to the sensor ground halfway through the video.
Don't need the AMP-Clamp now but need to get it.
Good call on the sensor. I was a little concerned that you hadn't actually checked the wiring integrity to the sensor as a corroded connecror could have given the same results.
I think my pico scope or escan has the ability to generate a specific signal. Wonder if u can use it as an input? I think autel ultra has too. Thx for the case study! Helps with my own skills nicely!
yeah, you could probably get it to flood itself, backfire hard enough to break something and shoot flames out.... 🥳 obviously, don't do that
Ylylttylssw cree
That was fun. It would b nice to simulate a vroom signal with an electric drill spinning by a sensor, just to hear the coil and injectors firing. Scanner Danner has tried without much success using the test light like u did. A piece of welding rod bent so as to swipe closely to a vrf sensor I should think would do the trick.
For me a clear giveaway was the voltage across an inductive sensor being so high in DC value. Normally there could be rather high and wild pulses up and down, but always more less symmetrically around zero. So when significant DC voltage across sensor is present, there is something fishy with it or its circuit. Of course, question is, why this quite simple diagnostic does not trigger any fault code?
The bias voltage is dependent on the design of the circuit.. Varies from make and model. Apparently this bias voltage is designed to get pulled to ground through the sensor. Perhaps it would only set a code for a complete open ckt 😉
It does, but generally an inductive sensor is an inductor, so the DC resistance is rather low (for an electronic, no more than a kOhm), so even with the bias the voltage drop won't be that high at all. Even when it uses the bias current to magnetize the sensing magnetic circuit (instead of using permanent magnet, which tend to be limited in temperature and do accumulate iron dust and so lose signal over time), the drop is not more than fraction of the expected AC signal voltage. So drop of up to 1V could be normal, but 5V definitely not.
The thing is, with bias so strong, the bias circuitry would effectively just short out the sensor signal (high resistance sensors exhibit high signal impedance, so need high impedance receiver and that then can not deliver any high bias).
Ok I am in at 6 minutes , my first glance at the scope patterns shown would make me want to check ecm grounds. Let's see where you go
What do you think about the decade box bypass test, Keith? 😉
Ivan, great job! Thanks for Sharing!
Shouldn’t you disconnect the plug from the ECM before performing a resistance test on the crank position sensor? If not, you are measuring whatever is connected to the sensor inside the ECM as well and might get a false reading.
Technically yes, but the ECM in parallel would only make the resistance read slightly lower 👍
interesting with the sensors/computer.
Ivan puts another Genie back in its bottle !! Sorry I will show my self out.
I say yes!
Ivan should sell T-shirts that say: Power and Grounds
Did you see Bernie Thompson's video of a crank sensor problem that turned out to be magnetized trigger wheel, magnetized by having the ground cable attached to the engine instead of the starter?
yeah that was insane. Wish he analyzed the before/after waveforms some more!
Ivan can take a complicated schematic and make it look simple !!
Ivan, the Genie Genie .
Nice one! I was waiting for you to pull out your PHAD pressure sensor box, and use it as an amplifier for the CKP hahahaha. I thought you did very well to discuss the issue of independent grounds on the Pico channels as contrasted to many general-purpose scopes. That's a perennial trap for young players, as Dave Jones would say! A side question: where was all that noise coming from on those various signals, given the engine wasn't starting, no ignition and so on?
The master teaching with proof of concept and not in theory. If your life was on the line and you needed a 100% confirmed diagnosis of a combustion engine problem to save it, Ivan better be on your short list of calls to make…..otherwise make some funeral arraignments. Hahahaha.
Maybe, once I gets warm again and I can exercise my trouble shooting....
Like riding a bike, it's been a while.
aren't all those CKP's adjustable depth on the old industrial ford setups? maybe it was just to shallow.
That scope capture looked like my daughter scribbled all over it
Nice job Ivan
I know u know your stuff but
Have u considered using a signal generator
What’s ur thoughts on using them?
Would have been cool to try it out, but would be really hard to simulate the sync notch, which is absolutely key for timing. Not sure the computer would respond to a signal without that sync notch.
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics: You can use an arbitrary waveform generator (AWG) to simulate any complex signal; 2 simultaneously if you have two channels. You cannot run engine unless you have a way to trigger AWG off one of the ACTUAL engine sensors, but you can trick ECM into pulsing ignition & fuel, which is usually enough to prove a theory. Also, there are some handheld sensor simulators that mimic common CKP patterns.
Love all your vijeos! Do you have a video on how to look at the data for 02 fuel trim closed/open loop etc? Explanation on how 02
Ivan has a bunch of examples. I cant think of a specific, look through his videos. Scanner Danner has a new video diagnosis that deals with the fuel pump.
Better be back before the nor'Easter bro!!
This video was from last month xD
I think the owner had a gut feeling that it was the crank sensor as he tried to remove it from the spare engine.
plug lp gas tank on they start on LPG if gasoline is bad. Ford industrial motors had alot of issues then .
I had a CAT engine in one JLG crank sensor had metal chips on magnet from flywheel teeth and starter. No trouble codes.
Good morning
These machines do not control the engine the same as cars. Completely different animal. Must have several signals such as the tach signal from the alternator for example before it will ever start. I repaired aerial equipment for years and I learned the hard way!
Yes there are the control box controls, and then the engine computer. Missing tach signal from the alternator would result in a start-stall situation since the fuel relay would be commanded off shortly after a start with no tach signal.
Great diagnosis . After the CKP is replaced , how is the fuel ? Is it 3 years old ? Did they put Stabil or another fuel stabilizer in ?
After the Genie started did he get his three wishes?
Getting it started was his wishes.
PHD now has a “Sitting for x years….Will it start?” video. Ivan, I though you were above this. :-)
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
He'll be on vin wiki next...
Has a good bat tree...maybe he'll drive it home 600 miles...
Shut up
@@madmike214 it is in fact a bat tree. In these parts, it's a bat tree. Not sure what those city slickers call it, but we call it a bat tree. Not joking. Totally serious.
I was just wondering if there is going to be a Genie diag again the other day. :)
Episode 5 of Ivan's RUclips series "I Dream of Genie"
I'm rather leery calling the variable reluctance sensor itself bad, by that I mean the coil based sensor. A coil like that can either be open, or perhaps shorting some coils, which would give either open circuit or a lower resistance. The only way we would see the small amplitude signal on the scope is if that coil was intact. I suspect a high impedance connection in the internal sensor wiring, which was causing the amplitude drop. There is no other way the sensor could be producing the visible signal, if its internal sensing coil was not intact. The issue could only be the connection between coil and computer, and seeing that a new sensor solved the problem, must have been a connection between the sensor connector and its internal sensing coil!
Great point, but it was indeed a sensor failure :)
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics That's why I separate the sensing coil from the whole sensor, saying probably the connector-coil junction being bad, but the actual sensing coil having to be still intact. Often see it in temp sensors, the thermistor still works, but the internal connection to the connecting pins corrodes/fails
I would say, if you have one of the legs of the coil broken, you still get a low signal induced on the other leg - it's still picking a (weak) variable magnetic field.
The reluctor wheel has no magnets. I believe the sensor has an internal magnet. It's the passage of the teeth on the wheel that distorts the field through the coil to generate the pulse. The magnets can lose strength with time.
@@fascistpedant758 Hmm, I suppose so, but doesn't seem to be an issue inside engines where the sensors are heat soaked for long periods? What would be the effect of a corroded/high impedance connection internal to the sensor connecting the coil to the connector, would that reduce the amplitude? An additional impedance would form a voltage divider that would lower the measured amplitude at the connection point right?
I dream of genie.
And Samantha.
Is this a Mustie 1 will it run episode?
You got to be Genie master trouble shooter by now LOL
Picoscope once again to the rescue.
That was two blinks in a row and then a pause.
What?!? No post repair, known good wave form and resistance measurement?
I would have liked to compare the old to the new sensor. Sometimes, just cranking the engine faster, with a good booster, will be enough for a weak sensor to fire the engine.
I wish I could do a follow up, but this one was 3 hours away lol
bad computer, send it!
That looks like a nice decade box, where did you buy the decade box?
Got it as a gift from Mr. Keith DeFazio himself :)
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics what a nice guy. You should keep him as a friend. :) the box was almost visible in the video but I couldn’t see the brand. Just that it was made in Korea what brand is it ? I was going to make my own but if that’s affordable. I may reconsider.
@@keithanderson7007 It's old school, couldn't find a similar one on the internet unfortunately...maybe eBay?
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics I thought the brand was on the box. Last 3 letters were ICO or something. I figured with the brand it might limit my search or hit other sites that may have the back opened to see the Old School quality level. Thanks Ivan
Ok for all who are interested the Decade box is an EICO brand 1171A. I saw it on the cardboard box. The company was originally a US company from Flushing NY and must have moved to Korea when Ivan's was built. They have varieties of them on Ebay. Look like a pretty stout piece of equipment.
i have one for you to think about. friend of mine installed a 4.7 dodge motor he needed the 16 tooth wheel but it has the 32 should it be possible to use maybe like a plc and let the motor input the 32 signals but the plc only output 16 of them and the engine run. if that is possible would open up the market to install these motors.
Just swap the computer over too 👍
Are the ohm checks done with the sensor isolated or still plugged in to ecm? I would think they should be isolated.
Good point. That's why I compared it to the cam sensor to get a known-good ballpark reading. Would be interesting to test a brand new one to get t he correct spec :)
Disconnecting the sensor would make the reading easier to think about. However long as the ECU is powered down, so it doesn't apply any voltage t the sensor, then measuring the sensor resistance at least gives you a minimum value. That is, if Ivan measures 165k, then there's no way the resistance of the sensor is less than 165k. Whatever parallel path there may be through the ECU can only make the measurement read a lower resistance value than the sensor alone, so we know the sensor must be at least 165k.
👍👍
Would the Hantek scope work Ivan in the same way?? Great job!
Of course! I've never used a Hantek, but any decent scope should work 🙂
Nice! What source do you use for wiring diagrams for equipment?
Based on all the highlights, Looks like the owner had it.
Genie has all their service manuals and wiring diagrams available online to download for free!
Genie has the service manuals available online :)
@@daveunbranded Those are my own diagrams...I've worked on more than one Genie over the years lol
Reason I ask is, I was trying to find a wiring diagram for that Weston plow that had a bad plow module I was working on, only thing I could find online was basically a wire routing diagram...nothing with actually wiring colors.
When this sensor fails on your car or truck, hopefully you have a cell phone with you.
same thing could be said for the coil, computer, tires, etc. Components can fail but they're pretty reliable overall.
It will start if its a Ford....
They like to sit forever.
LOOL
It's a genie. They're garbage and always broken.
my buddy fried his climate control computer while trying to diagnose and jump crap, so that the ccu refused to ground the relay to the ac clutch. il
Your very frustrating ,I think you are just putting on a show for a bunch of geeks that do not know witch end of a screwdriver to use!