I know this is an old video. However, I thought I would add my thoughts. It’s said by Goenkaji that it came to Burma from India at the time of Ashoka through two monks he sent there- Ajahn Sona and Uttara. From there it was preserved and taught finally reaching Goenkaji through Sayagyi U Ba Khin. I went to practise it when I got stuck in breath meditation after having an initial spectacular progress ( or what I perceive as one). The practise helped me get in touch with bodily sensations as I could not feel my body fully without those step by step instructions. It was more like learning to walk before you could learn to run as the texts ask you to do ( feel the whole body with the breath ). Also there seems to be a correlation between mindstates and feelings in the body. When either one relaxes the other relaxes by itself. It is a series of experiments we have to do to understand that there is no one there. It is a significant part of the path. Is it the whole path? I don’t know. May be, May be not.
I think it’s tolerably clear that the Buddha practised and taught a somatic type of meditation that would have included focusing on bodily sensations. I think this is strongly implied in the Suttas. What’s less clear is whether or not that would have been a systematic head-to-toes/toes-to-head scan (as in the U Ba Khin tradition) or something more random (as in the Mahasi Sayadaw tradition). Richard Shankman argues persuasively in his book ‘The Experience of Samadhi’ (a must read on the subject of early Buddhist meditation) that the original practice of samatha/samadhi as taught by the Buddha (which was not demarcated from vipassana, which happened later; the two were originally combined together) was very somatic, unlike Buddhaghosa’s approach in the Visuddhimagga which ignores the body (including in his narrow interpretation of kaya as “body of breath”). The state of jhana as presented by Buddhaghosa is an extreme tunnel-vision consciousness that shuts out awareness of everything except the meditation object (ultimately just an abstract mental representation of the object), including any feeling of the body at all. However, in the Buddha’s original instructions, as Shankman demonstrates, jhana is a state that is characterised by, and accessed by, a very heightened state of body awareness. Being able to enter jhana, as the Buddha taught it, presupposes a foundational meditation practice that cultivates a very detailed sensitivity to the feeling of the body. That would have to entail a thorough and sustained focus on sensations felt throughout the body - though again it’s hard to say whether this would have been head-to-toes, in some other ordered sequence, or more randomly or holistically. In fact, there is a description of a practice that seems similar to a body scan in the Buddha’s description of what occurs in the 4th jhana (“Just as though a man were sitting covered from head down with a white cloth, so that there would be no part of his body not covered by the white cloth; so too, a bhikkhu sits pervading this body with a pure bright mind, so that there is no part of his whole body unpervaded by the pure bright mind“: Kayagatasati Sutta, para. 21). Another point is contemplation of the four elements, which occurs in the mindfulness of the body section of the Satipatthana. Analayo suggests that in practice this meditation would likely have involved scanning the body to feel the different sensations associated with each of the elements (see chapter IV of his book ‘Satipatthana Meditation: A Practical Guide’). The elements can be thought of as metaphors for different types of sensations felt in the body (e.g. fire is the feeling of warmth or temperature, water is the feeling of blood in the pulse, earth is the feeling of hardness or solidity, etc.). The refrain of the section on mindfulness of the body in the Satipatthana also says: “he dwells contemplating in the body its nature of arising, or he dwells contemplating in the body its nature of passing away”. On one level this would include contemplating mortality but in addition to that, the most immediate and obvious manifestation of impermanence that can be contemplated in the body is the feeling of sensations, which are constantly changing, constantly arising and passing away. This is a key point that U Ba Khin seems to have emphasised from his surviving writings. Michael
Sure Steppenwolf there is no question that among other practices the Buddha taught a body-centric meditation practice, and that jhāna (otherwise known as "form jhāna") was very much involved with sensations in the body or "form".
It's a meditation technique practiced by a previous Buddha (before Gautama) to reach enlightenment, according to a Mahasi abbot who taught me the method. The technique shown to me is different to that described in the video + I'm unfamiliar with the other sects' body scan techniques. This involved standing barefoot for an hour and scanning from toes to crown in the horizontal plane, then back down to the toes, repeat. It was more effective than the usual sitting and pacing meditation for me. Excellent RUclips channel, thank you.
Thank you for bringing up the body scanning meditation here. Yes, as you said H. S N Goenka learnt that method from Sayagyi U Ba Khin of Burma. Sayagyi was the devotee of a lay person Saya Thet Gyi, we know him as Annagarika Saya Thet Gyi who spread his method around 1930. His teacher was Ledi Sayadaw who wrote many Tikas in Burmese and Pali. Unfortunately, most of his works are still not been translated into English yet, however English rulers of that time granted him D. Litt although he turned it down. I wish you can study about him and his papers sometime in near future.
The technique may have been independently discovered many times. I discovered it myself at around age 12. Growing up in the bible belt in the 80's I had little access to information about meditation. I had seen a TV documentary about the extraordinary mental abilities of yogis and monks. From the documentary I learned that meditation involved concentrating on the breath and that if you could master your mind you could control pain. I had suffered from bouts of excruciating chronic pain since age 7. So meditation sounded cool and I thought I would try it. I began to try to be still and focus on my breath on the bus ride home from school. It wasn't working for me since when I concentrated on my breath my breathing rate would change - I thought this must be wrong for some reason. I thought if awareness is the thing then I could just be aware of the sensation of my back on the seat. Then I started to shift to other parts of my body, and it seemed natural to try to relax each part while doing so. I thought it would be neat to try to control my heart rate like the yogis, but all I was able to do was give it a 'jump'. One morning my father had his blood pressure kit out which included a stethoscope so I demonstrated it for him. He thought it was funny and I should do it as a prank on our family doctor next time I had a check-up. I decided it might not be a good idea to mess with my heart rhythm in such an uncontrolled manner and stopped (now that I know more about physiology, I'm glad I did). I also stopped meditating regularly when I started driving myself home from school and did not practice unless I was in pain. A couple of years ago I was having problems with peripheral neuropathy and started doing guided yoga nidra fairly often. Currently I do body scan meditation and metta daily without audio guide.
Forgot to say thanks for this channel. It's a lot easier these days to get information - much better for young people, especially since some areas of the US appear to be regressing. If I had known about Secular Buddhism when I was younger, I would have probably given it a try. After recently crossing over into believing in spiritual phenomena I'm looking into religious practice - but the information here is still quite helpful. @@DougsDharma
Hi there, I recently discovered your channel and found lots of useful and interesting information. So a big thank you! I have been practicing Vipassana Meditation as taught by SN Goenka for 8 years, including seven 10-day retreats, one 8-day Satipatthana retreat, and maintain daily practice. Will do my first 20-day retreat next year. And I would like to share my 2 cents to the topic of this video. You cited the Geonka method as the main example of Body Scan Meditation, but I think you missed the two key components of the technique - it's all about developing AWARENESS and EQUANIMITY. More specifically, objective awareness of Vedena / Body Sensations, which is clearly explained as the second awareness in the Satipatthana Sutra, and in the meantime no blind reactions to them with craving or aversion. The body-scan part is just a good technique for beginners to learn how to detect body sensations. More advanced practitioners can feel sensations all over the body without scanning. I would highly suggest you sign up for a 10-day retreat to find out more details and history of the Vipassana Meditation method.
I practice the Body Scan (as tought by Kabat-Zinn) since more than 10 years on a regular basis, and nothing has cured my head-dominion as effectively as this practice. 🐱🙏
So glad you did this video Doug. I have spent time researching this very question-if the body scan was original to the Buddha- and did not come up with anything. Thank you for sharing this.
I have been practising U Ba Khin method for a long time. I learnt it from mu guru. According to my teacher, it was brought to Burma. The fable is it was taken to Burma by Maha Moggallana and Sariputta. But there no evidence for this precise form before the turn of 20th Century. U Ba Khin learned to meditate in 1937. He had two teachers: Saya Thetgyi and Webu Sayadaw. The U Ba Khin method probably came from Saya Thetgyi. Whether he innovated it or U Ba Khin adapted it is not know. But I know it works.
Webu Sayadaw encouraged Sayagyi U Ba Khin to teach,Webu Sayadaw was not U Ba Khin’s teacher, the technique of Vipassana was brought to The Golden Land officially by the 2 Monks sent by Ashoka and continues to this day and unofficially previous to that by Guvampati a Arahut at the time of the Buddha and probably by the 2 merchants that met the Buddha after his enlightenment.
Fascinating topic! The MBSR body scan version by Jon Kabat-zinn was very helpful when I started meditating for chronic pain, it definitely opened multiple doors and was a precursor in my interest for the Dharma. I have a question, from the early buddhist perspective, when one practices breath meditation, where should one focus? I tend to focus on my the breath going in and out of my nostrils, because I feel chronic pain in my abdomen and it is hard to do abdominal breathing. Thanks Doug.
Thanks poikkiki! The instructions in early Buddhism are somewhat vague. They say to keep attention “parimukkham” which literally means “around the mouth” though could be taken more metaphorically to mean “in front of the face/body” or some such thing. That’s to say, it isn’t entirely clear. I don’t think it really matters frankly so long as you are focusing somewhere that you can sustain.
Just something I wanted to add, was that in the Burmese tradition As was told by U Ko Lay in an interview in the 90s when the senior monk of the Monastry thought that his student or students were established enough in Pariyatti and Patipatti he would leave them in charge and walk off into the forest either to attain the final Nibbana or live in seclusion, so in the tradition of Anatta there is no recorded historical evidence of different teachers until the British came along and started printing books
An interesting note, Webu Sayadaw, the Burmese monk (considered by some to have been an Arahant) who gave U Bha Khin the injunction to teach Dhamma, practiced (and i believe taught) awareness of the breath without a progressive body scan, but viewed U Bha Khin's method as being in line with the Dhamma and the Sattipatthana Sutta. From what I gather, the reasoning is that anapanasati will eventually lead to states in which there is an ability to observe sensation in the whole body (within the span of a breath cycle) likewise, the same if you enter into Bhanga or awareness of arising and passing of sensations be it from a progressive body scan, you can observe the entire body within a breath. Also of note lengthier courses Goenka instructs panoramic body awareness. As far as the whole notion of impurities in the body, this is actually quite central to the teaching method of Goenka, bodily impurities correspond to attachments, that is to say parts of the body/mind where impermanence is not fullly realized. Observing the coarse body with equanimity and a right understanding of impermanence leads to a mental purification of sorts. I am not an expert on MBSR (or Goenka's method for that matter) but I would chance that this purification, along with cultivation of metta is what distinguishes the methods further.
@@westsidesmitty1 amazing. 10 day retreats are an amazing opportunity. They can definitely be difficult but remember you have carved out this precious time to add ease and grace to your life off the cushion. The meticulous instructions and the evening dhamma talks are all tools to make the daunting task managable. May you be free of all bondages for your benefit and the benefit of all sentient beings. 🙏❤☸🌍
What I know is Sayagyi U Ba Khin got this method from Saya Thet Gyi, the follower of Ledi Sayadaw and Saya Thet Gyi mentioned that he followed to Ledi Sayadaw's meditation instruction. I had never heard Saya Thet Gyi was Webu Sayadaw's follower.
@@tunaung8639 Sayagyi U Ba Khin learned this method from Saya Thetgyi indeed. To the best of my understanding when U Ba Khin was on the road for work he had a visit with Webu Sayadaw to pay respects as he was rumoured to be an Arahant, or at least very respected in meditation. Apparently during their correspondence Webu Sayadaw gave U Ba Khin the injunction to begin teaching. To my knowledge the methods are very similar and lead to the same result, the technique just varies slightly regarding when attention is to be given to sensations throughout the body vs. focussed only on the breath. Hope you have a fruitful summer of practice.
@Dough: I had done a Yoga Nidra course, Really made a big difference to my life before I learned Vipassana. It's the next closest I have found to body scan & sounds exactly like MBSR that I haven't practiced, almost sounds same. If I found more information, I'll share.
Yes, also patanjali came around 400-500 BCE so it’s unimaginable that he wasn’t exposed to Vipassana & his 8 fold path is so similar to Buddha’s 8 fold path. Even though conservative Hindus would like to predate Patanjali as ever-existing, but basing on facts there was no Yoga as we know of now & after Patanjali around the time of Buddha. It must been a very interesting time.
@@abro99 wow that’s so interesting. But in the stories of Siddharth, it says he learned and tried all these yoga techniques but to no avail. What type of yoga was that?
Recently, I learned about a book about the birth of insight meditation, "The Birth of Insight: Meditation, Modern Buddhism, and the Burmese Monk Ledi Sayadaw. S.N. Goenka claims that his meditation method originated with Ledi Sayadaw. If one wants to learn more about the book, go to Amazon and enter the title. Click on the "Look Inside" button and read many pages at the beginning which are well worthwhile in themselves.
Yes, thanks Aron. I’ve cited that book in several of my older videos, for example on Insight meditation: ruclips.net/video/PNZRDPpszkI/видео.html , and on the South Asian roots of aspects of secular belief and practice: ruclips.net/video/y2kuztpY9hA/видео.html
I've sat three Goenka 10 day courses in the UK (Dhamma Dipa) and also served on two of these courses. Goenka claims that the Vipassana meditation taught is directly from the Buddha and from the satipatthana sutta. The core of the teaching, as I understand it; is that you observe your sensations in the body with equanimity and eventually craving and aversion cease and you experience pure joy. Actually what Eckhart Tolle calls the painbody will dissolve. In fact on these courses we are told that the physical discomfort experienced sitting for 11 hours a day (for example a pain in the leg) are stored defilements. By observing them they will eventually dissolve. The whole course and indeed the worldwide organisation is centered around Goenka including the discourses shown each evening on the course and recorded by Goenka back in 1992. So if you sit the course say 20 times then you listen to the same thing 20 times. Goenka is treated as a god like figure speaking the ultimate truth and there is no other truth. When you enter the administration side of the organisation, as I have; you see that most of the senior people never smile. There is no joy. Sitting for hours on end and holding a blank face seems to be the measure of success. I started to get an unease about the cult vibration around the centre when I started to serve. I started to question the method. For example why on the first day of each course do complete beginners start straightaway by sitting for one hour; many times during the day? Would it be better to sit for say 10 or 15 minutes then go for a cup of tea and gradually increase the sitting time? However I do like what Buddhism has to offer and started to look around of other people who have a softer approach; hence arriving at this channel. It would be really interesting for Doug to go on one of these Goenka courses and come back with a view.
Well that certainly doesn’t sound very alluring! I’ve heard that sort of story before from people who had been at Goenka retreats, but also a lot of positive stories as well. Perhaps it depends on the center and how it is run. Thanks John.
Question, when I went on the Goenka retreat in N. California I talked to several people deeply involved in the Vipassana community. They go on 40 day retreats. Do they watch the same Goenka videos I watched on the 10 day retreat? Is it the same structured meditation practice? I too have been puzzled by the claim that body scanning is taught in the Pali Canon. Not to say for many it isn’t an effective practice....
I did vipasana 10day retreat in south india i can assure u there only one photo of sn goenka in the management office and no sir he his not respected or protraied godley .
A 10 day is very hard and what sometimes seems to hard for some people and they don’t understand what was taught in the course and then try to blame the organisation for anything they can poke a stick at, try listening to Barry Lappings interview on Insight Myanmar for some real insight
if someone wants to learn about these meditations it's free by the official dhamma organization which only runs by donations from benefited students like me. I would recommend going to the retreat place ( someone sensitive to energy can feel the vibes there too ) where food and accommodation are free.
I came across an example of body scan meditation when researching the profound Cha'n teachings of Bodhidharma. Allegedly, when discovering many monastics were very unhealthy and suffering from "sitting" sickness, he was instrumental in devising a form of fitness routine which were probably borrowed from ancient Taoist teachings for internal health called QiGong.
Yes, fitness is a very important component to a healthy life. I think the Zen masters understood this when they included work along with meditation. Of course in ancient India the monastics had to walk long distances for their alms rounds which would have given them exercise as well.
@@bobg.7976 Indeed, he is kind of a mythical figure in the West, mostly known for founding Shaolin Temple and KungFu. I got most of my information from the extensive library of Fo Guang Shan Buddhist organization based in Taiwan. Bodhidharma is also much revered by Zen Buddhist orders in Japan , although in the West some of his profound teachings are quite often intertwined with the teachings of Ch'an master Seng T'san.
@@DougsDharma That's what stands out about Gautama Buddha and his devotees. Even if one puts all the religiousness aside, Siddhartha and his followers lived well past their 80's whilst the rest of the population barely made it past 30 years of age. I think we can all learn something from that.
Mael-Strom Interesting! He is venerated in Soto Zen as the first ancestor in China and his image (very stylized) is front and center in the zendo. I had no idea he is venerated in other Buddhist traditions.
Akong Rinpoche teaches a nice take on this in his book, Taming The Tiger. It's basically the body scan only you sit cross-legged (or I guess on a chair) and work your way up the body. He uses a great metaphor for the return journey, though - basically, he describes it like pulling a plug out of your foot and letting your awareness move down the body as if it's water escaping.
@@DougsDharma I don't know, to be honest, but it does sound like something you might read in the pali scriptures doesn't it. Being Tibetan, I guess Akong may have deferred more to the sutras than the pali canon but that said I know his brother, Lama Yeshe, is well respected by the Theravadan community so they may both have read widely within the pali tradition, too.
It is possible that it is only natural that we will objetivize the body as one of the results of coming out of deeper states of meditation, which are not objetivizing. As we do scanning the body, it will only result in a transformational effect, using the old cause effect analogy, when meditation succeed, paradoxically with no purpose, in making the object-subject relationship dissapear. As when we reach deeper states... From Taoism, (Zen was created when, the Buddha's teaching reached the bed where they intermingled), Mantak Chia, proposed an inner smile meditation that work with this scanning plus some positive visualization... I have personally benefited from this. I look foward to find out about the sources of the meditation technics you mentioned. (Used this expression improperly, as there is no techne here only poiesis...) The I, of course, has to dissapear in the process, as objetivation cease... But the I reappears, do not worry, attachment to an fixated illusory self will continue... But as this is repeated again, and again..., a dissapearing Self appear, this is non attachment... The stuff Buddhas are made of... The historically produced, for us now natural tendency to think in Aristotelian Logic, forgets that the Buddha belong to pre aristotelian times... The subject-object relationship can not be thought in our occidental recent ways... The indian logic employed by him was fully exposed and developped further by Nagarjuna...
Thanks Jeff, that’s very kind of you. I don’t make a podcast, though I have been interviewed several times over at the Secular Buddhist podcast. I have made it possible to download audio-only versions of these videos over at my Patreon page if that interests you. 🙏
I tried body scanning after watching a Frank Yang video where he explained how he does it. By the time I got to my upper torso I could no longer feel a body at all. It felt like the only part of my body still in existence was the part I was scanning. It felt as though I was now pinpointing the sensation. Of coarse I got a bit startled and lost the experience. lol Even though I know I am not suppose to chase experiences..its hard not to. lol
Water moving through sand is exactly what you experience by doing the body scan method taught by SN Goenka, of course it doesn’t always happen on your first or second course but it does happen, the talk by Patrick Given-Wilson on Sayathetgyi who was believed to be a Anāgāmi explains how when or after taking a dip he asked his teacher Ledi Sayadaw if moving through the body was inline with what the Buddha taught and the response was affirmative, feeling the body in one breath is also a result of body scanning is taught by SN Goenka it is a much faster version of water flowing through sand because your awareness moves with your breath some people experience on the first course others second third maybe even fourth or fifth course. Patrick Given-Wilson also describes this when talking about Webu Sayadaw and that Webu Sayadaw also describe the same phenomenal. You can find Patrick Given-Wilson’s talks on RUclips
In some other cultures I think there is less of an emphasis on enumerating everything that goes into a topic being written about. For example I'm in a Facebook group that is about West African cooking. When they share their recipes they don't include any measurements and they also don't include an order of steps or a description of how the foods are made. It just exists on the premise that everyone in that group understands what they're working on and what all of the foods and ingredients are. Maybe this is the same way, where everyone within early Buddhism knew that they did the meditations that way and so when they wrote about them they didn't enumerate the steps for performing meditation.
Sure, the instructions for meditation in the early texts are very compressed. That said, the monastics were memorizing them for a reason: in order to teach those in the future about how it was done. So they must have expected later people might become confused.
Yoga nidra seems to have at least a little similarity but starts with the thumbs and fingers and covers the body in a different sequence. I'm certainly no yoga expert but get the impression that it progresses in a way that us consistent with beliefs about the flow of energy through the body in certain schools of yoga. Where yoga nidra really diverges is the second part is usually a guided visualization almost like a shamanic journey and return typically to a scene of natural beauty and tranquility. I think this may be a more recent practice and don't know where it gets its roots.
I found a few sources that attribute modern yoga nidra to Swami Satyananda Saraswati in the early sixties but also claims that it traces back to Sankhya philosophy (first written down around 700 BC but dating back to around 1000 BC through verbal teaching) I don't know if there is any documentation to back up the earlier claim.
There is a very good recent book on the origins of yoga by James Mallinson. IIRC modern yoga is basically a fusion of early Vedic teachings with Buddhist ideas as well. So this still raises the question of whether the contemporary yoga practices came from something earlier or from Buddhist influences somewhere. Or from parallel development of course.
@@DougsDharma Thanks for mentioning the book I'm checking it out. As a young teenager my mom was active with the Alfred Adler Institute so I got to attend a UD lecture and learn progressive muscle relaxation from Harold Mozak, but did not appreciate fully what a rare privilege that was at the time. That was my first contact with something like meditation, which I learned more later in biofeedback training when I developed classical migraine headaches, thankfully I don't get those anymore. In learning about mindfulness, I realized that the headaches began after a specific trauma and went away many years later when the trauma was resolved, amazing how something of the mind could have such dramatic, physical effects.
Thanks Doug. Goenka claims that his practice comes directly from the Buddha, that it was passed along through the generations (and almost forgotten) until it arrived and has been preserved in its original form in Myanmar. Of course, I’ve never found any historical evidence to support this...
Another point I'd make is that one thing that certainly is a very modern development in mindfulness meditation is the idea that mindfulness is "non-judgemental". This seems to come from Jon Kabat Zinn. In early Buddhism, mindfulness (sati) is quite the opposite - it is purposeful, discriminating and goal-driven. There are a number of scholars and other writers who have made this point.
Well, the non-judgmental nature of mindfulness is derived from the phrase "rid of desire and aversion for the world" found in the preamble. That is, one is to look without preference on whatever arises. The point of mindfulness meditation however is as you describe: purposeful, discriminating, and goal driven. We look without desire or aversion so as to see how things are. Once we know how things are, we are able to choose the skillful from the unskillful.
@Dough : I have been practicing Vipassana for few years now & my life has transformed in every possible way. However I always found it challenging to find materials or perspectives which were neutral to The Teachings of Buddha than coming from a sect. I have been watching your videos for hours now & seem like your work will be saving a significant time for research & help me make further choices. I'm so happy, delighted, excited to have found your channel when in my practice I have been asking for some guide maps for last bit. I'm equally greatful & eager to watch all your videos as they answer a lot of the questions I was manually trying to seek answers. I'm already a fanboy, just sharing feelings as it arose. I will be looking deeper into your other resources once I start digging in further. Lots of Metta Abhi :-)
Gu Nesnaj I have never been to a Vipassana meditation boot camp, but I've read that the first 3 days you focus on body scans and you move on to insight meditation/open awareness meditation. I've also heard they are quite rough for people with limited experience in meditation, but I wonder if someone could share their direct experience.
@@poikkiki Ok. I almost went but I had to renounce my meditation practices. I felt not comfortable with the whole thing, more of a painfull brainwashing session to me. But I love their book: The art of living.
I did one of those 10 day Vipassana meditation retreats. You sit and meditate on the body a LOT. I spend like 14 hours a day meditating. To be honest I didn't enjoy it but my problem was that I went to one of those shortly after I began a meditation practice. (It's kind of like someone who took up jogging a month ago and then decided to run a marathon. Not a really smart idea.) Now that I have had a firm meditation practice for a few years now I think I could do it with no problem.
I haven’t been to one either but my understanding is that body scan tends to be done more towards the beginning than the end. It might depend on the teacher though.
Very nice video! All that you were explaining sounds completely like Reiki technique to me. Do you think its the same as reiki or there are some differences?
So I know this is a very old video but a thought just occurred to me. I'm curious if body scan meditation may have originated within the Thai forest tradition. It's a very popular method with the ahjans, specifically ahjan Chah and sona and Thanissaro Bhikkhu. I'll have to do some more research but it may be a good place to start.
I'd be interested to know if your research turns anything up! It certainly could have originated in the Thai forest tradition, but my suspicion is that it goes farther back. (Though not to the Buddha himself).
@@DougsDharma yes, I believe you are correct. My search hasn't lead me to any conclusive answers but it has brought me down the road of yoga. At first, I thought possibly Patanjali may be somewhat responsible for what we know today as body scan meditation but I wanted to look back further so I dug up what I could on Alara Kalama meditation techniques and it seems that they're more akin to transcendental meditation. I feel it must have originated between Kalama and Patanjali somewhere but not with the Buddha himself. Any thoughts?
I'm not sure about the evidence for the effect of body scan meditation, but to my understanding it can help us relax. It's a practice used a lot in Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction (MBSR).
Do you think that insight meditation has to be done in the form of body scans? It seems like goenka likes to seperate vipassana from breath meditation. I feel like you can develop insight at the same time as you work on concentration of breath.
I think it's only really Goenka who makes body scan integral to Insight meditation. In the early tradition it's done first just with breathing meditation, as you say.
Doug, Thanks so much for your videos. I have watched them often and learned a lot. Can Vipassana according to SN Goenka be said to be of the Theravada lineage? Please clarify where SN Goenka's Vipassana would be located among the various lineages of Buddhism.
Yes Henrique I believe Goenka’s teachers were Theravādins and his teaching is generally Theravāda in character, although from a somewhat secular perspective.
True. The aim is to attain peace This meditation I did and believe me it gave me so much peace that I forgot the both my legs right from toe to the lower back were in pain Thanks
did goenka 10 days body scan vipassana. what does scan do??? teaching is to avoid love and hate to sensations, sort of teaching to avoid attachment and aversion to all sensation and feelings. also see reality clearly and in moderation???
I think the whole the body being undesirable thing is falling far short of what is actually going on. Sure, some separation from the body and from the desire to find bodies attractive is great. However, it makes zero sense to me to have that be the sole purpose of becoming so aware of the makeup of everything in the body. It makes more sense to me that part of the reason to do so is to obtain some control over the more automated bodily processes. To me the impurities can also mean things that are not supposed to be in a healthy body. That becoming aware of them can give one the ability to get rid of them. It helps to be aware of what is wrong with the body at a fine tune prospective when you are trying fix it. (however, it is not necessary all the time, you can let your subconscious handle the fine tune stuff... At least at first.) Ergo, I learned how to get my sinues to drain by just mediating, discovering just how congested they were and then asking my body to drain them. Much later, I discovered that there are muscles in our nasel passages and sinues that my subconscious was controlling. By asking my body to fix the issue of congestion, it triggered my subconscious to relax them. I now can directly control those muscles. On top of that, I'm now able to both make the miscual membranes in that area produce more mucas or absorb it. All this stuff straight up is about ending suffering. To tie it into the ultimate end of suffering, nirvana; ergo extinguishment. (of all sensations, presence and deisres, ergo death.) It makes sense to me that one way to accomplish that is to become aware of everything that our physical bodies do and to be able to control it... To the point that we stop all bodily processes and "leave our bodies".. Ergo, die. Or I guess, Mahasamadi. So really, I feel like MBSR and mindful relaxation etc have something going for them because they take mindfulness of sensation (and desire etc) to the level of controlling.
Thanks Ogden. For some discussion on “bodily control” see for example my earlier video on the Buddha’s second sermon: ruclips.net/video/Ro0BV84dci4/видео.html
Great video again. Thank you. I am curious as to why Goenka has dubbed his meditation style « vipassana », even though it doesn’t seem to fit the idea of insight meditation. It seems more like a shamatha on body sensations.
What is your idea of insight meditation practice? Goenka and Sayadaw Mahasi seem to have had the biggest influence with Vipassana lay practitioners, at least in N California. To answer your question, in the Goenka books and his videos you watch on retreat, Goenka believed liberation comes through a visceral apprehension of or impermanence. Identify with the physical, liberation comes through the body, you might say. By noting the ebb and flow of bodily sensations the practitioner can gain the necessary insight of impermanence to free oneself from dukkha or suffering. Doug raises some good questions though, there is nothing in the Canon to back the claim that the Buddha taught this practice. But so what...you can say the same of Zen Buddhist practices. Or the strange practices of some Tibetan schools.
@@bobg.7976 My knowledge is mainly based on Tibetan Buddhist practices. In those schools, a dichotomy is made between "shamatha" and "vipashyana". They define the latter essentially as an attempt to search for the "self", and fail to do so, thereby gaining a direct realization of no-self. They go about it roughly in two steps: 1) Start with an "analytical meditation", whereby you deconstruct your person, as in "I am not my leg, I am not my arms, ....", until you get to your mind. There, you start to observed how thoughts are impermanent, and intangible, and therefore cannot be the self. 2) After trying hard to "locate" the self, one rests in non-conceptual observation. I haven't studied Goenka's works in detail, just heard a few talks by his followers. They seems very focused on the body scan, but didn't seem to address the no-self issue at all. That's why I posed this question.
I agree the difference between the two modes is a little unclear. But Goenka practice has some incredible testimonials - when a young man Stephen Batchelor was studying in Dharamsala with one of the Dalai Lama’s disciples. The lama told him to go study with Goenka (amazing in itself). He attended a 10 day retreat with the master in India and said it was a revelation. I thought the retreat was well worth doing, but at the end of the day (or 10 days) not so different than retreats in other schools. Goenka’s notions about sankharas are quite stimulating - maybe Doug should take that on in a video!!
Not sure where U Ba Khin get the full body scan meditation technique but he was first introduced to meditation by U Thet Gyi who was the deciple of Ledi Sayadaw en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ledi_Sayadaw who revive( reintroduced) the interest in meditation in Burma (arguably the world)
Goenka way is Vipassana, head to feet feet to head, purpose is not to sleep but be awake and scan the sensations without reacting and improve the quality of life
Check out my courses on Buddhism for a deeper dive into the dharma: onlinedharma.org !
I know this is an old video. However, I thought I would add my thoughts. It’s said by Goenkaji that it came to Burma from India at the time of Ashoka through two monks he sent there- Ajahn Sona and Uttara. From there it was preserved and taught finally reaching Goenkaji through Sayagyi U Ba Khin.
I went to practise it when I got stuck in breath meditation after having an initial spectacular progress ( or what I perceive as one). The practise helped me get in touch with bodily sensations as I could not feel my body fully without those step by step instructions. It was more like learning to walk before you could learn to run as the texts ask you to do ( feel the whole body with the breath ). Also there seems to be a correlation between mindstates and feelings in the body. When either one relaxes the other relaxes by itself. It is a series of experiments we have to do to understand that there is no one there. It is a significant part of the path. Is it the whole path? I don’t know. May be, May be not.
Yes I'm not sure about the history but it certainly can be a useful practice.
I think it’s tolerably clear that the Buddha practised and taught a somatic type of meditation that would have included focusing on bodily sensations. I think this is strongly implied in the Suttas. What’s less clear is whether or not that would have been a systematic head-to-toes/toes-to-head scan (as in the U Ba Khin tradition) or something more random (as in the Mahasi Sayadaw tradition).
Richard Shankman argues persuasively in his book ‘The Experience of Samadhi’ (a must read on the subject of early Buddhist meditation) that the original practice of samatha/samadhi as taught by the Buddha (which was not demarcated from vipassana, which happened later; the two were originally combined together) was very somatic, unlike Buddhaghosa’s approach in the Visuddhimagga which ignores the body (including in his narrow interpretation of kaya as “body of breath”). The state of jhana as presented by Buddhaghosa is an extreme tunnel-vision consciousness that shuts out awareness of everything except the meditation object (ultimately just an abstract mental representation of the object), including any feeling of the body at all. However, in the Buddha’s original instructions, as Shankman demonstrates, jhana is a state that is characterised by, and accessed by, a very heightened state of body awareness. Being able to enter jhana, as the Buddha taught it, presupposes a foundational meditation practice that cultivates a very detailed sensitivity to the feeling of the body. That would have to entail a thorough and sustained focus on sensations felt throughout the body - though again it’s hard to say whether this would have been head-to-toes, in some other ordered sequence, or more randomly or holistically.
In fact, there is a description of a practice that seems similar to a body scan in the Buddha’s description of what occurs in the 4th jhana (“Just as though a man were sitting covered from head down with a white cloth, so that there would be no part of his body not covered by the white cloth; so too, a bhikkhu sits pervading this body with a pure bright mind, so that there is no part of his whole body unpervaded by the pure bright mind“: Kayagatasati Sutta, para. 21).
Another point is contemplation of the four elements, which occurs in the mindfulness of the body section of the Satipatthana. Analayo suggests that in practice this meditation would likely have involved scanning the body to feel the different sensations associated with each of the elements (see chapter IV of his book ‘Satipatthana Meditation: A Practical Guide’). The elements can be thought of as metaphors for different types of sensations felt in the body (e.g. fire is the feeling of warmth or temperature, water is the feeling of blood in the pulse, earth is the feeling of hardness or solidity, etc.).
The refrain of the section on mindfulness of the body in the Satipatthana also says: “he dwells contemplating in the body its nature of arising, or he dwells contemplating in the body its nature of passing away”. On one level this would include contemplating mortality but in addition to that, the most immediate and obvious manifestation of impermanence that can be contemplated in the body is the feeling of sensations, which are constantly changing, constantly arising and passing away. This is a key point that U Ba Khin seems to have emphasised from his surviving writings.
Michael
Sure Steppenwolf there is no question that among other practices the Buddha taught a body-centric meditation practice, and that jhāna (otherwise known as "form jhāna") was very much involved with sensations in the body or "form".
It's a meditation technique practiced by a previous Buddha (before Gautama) to reach enlightenment, according to a Mahasi abbot who taught me the method. The technique shown to me is different to that described in the video + I'm unfamiliar with the other sects' body scan techniques. This involved standing barefoot for an hour and scanning from toes to crown in the horizontal plane, then back down to the toes, repeat. It was more effective than the usual sitting and pacing meditation for me. Excellent RUclips channel, thank you.
Interesting sinbin35, I haven't heard that method before!
Thank you for bringing up the body scanning meditation here. Yes, as you said H. S N Goenka learnt that method from Sayagyi U Ba Khin of Burma. Sayagyi was the devotee of a lay person Saya Thet Gyi, we know him as Annagarika Saya Thet Gyi who spread his method around 1930. His teacher was Ledi Sayadaw who wrote many Tikas in Burmese and Pali. Unfortunately, most of his works are still not been translated into English yet, however English rulers of that time granted him D. Litt although he turned it down. I wish you can study about him and his papers sometime in near future.
Yes I wrote a bit about Ledi Sayadaw in my earlier video on Insight meditation: ruclips.net/video/PNZRDPpszkI/видео.html
The technique may have been independently discovered many times. I discovered it myself at around age 12. Growing up in the bible belt in the 80's I had little access to information about meditation. I had seen a TV documentary about the extraordinary mental abilities of yogis and monks. From the documentary I learned that meditation involved concentrating on the breath and that if you could master your mind you could control pain. I had suffered from bouts of excruciating chronic pain since age 7. So meditation sounded cool and I thought I would try it. I began to try to be still and focus on my breath on the bus ride home from school. It wasn't working for me since when I concentrated on my breath my breathing rate would change - I thought this must be wrong for some reason. I thought if awareness is the thing then I could just be aware of the sensation of my back on the seat. Then I started to shift to other parts of my body, and it seemed natural to try to relax each part while doing so. I thought it would be neat to try to control my heart rate like the yogis, but all I was able to do was give it a 'jump'. One morning my father had his blood pressure kit out which included a stethoscope so I demonstrated it for him. He thought it was funny and I should do it as a prank on our family doctor next time I had a check-up. I decided it might not be a good idea to mess with my heart rhythm in such an uncontrolled manner and stopped (now that I know more about physiology, I'm glad I did). I also stopped meditating regularly when I started driving myself home from school and did not practice unless I was in pain. A couple of years ago I was having problems with peripheral neuropathy and started doing guided yoga nidra fairly often. Currently I do body scan meditation and metta daily without audio guide.
Interesting, yes it's certainly possible it was discovered independently many times.
Forgot to say thanks for this channel. It's a lot easier these days to get information - much better for young people, especially since some areas of the US appear to be regressing. If I had known about Secular Buddhism when I was younger, I would have probably given it a try. After recently crossing over into believing in spiritual phenomena I'm looking into religious practice - but the information here is still quite helpful. @@DougsDharma
Hi there, I recently discovered your channel and found lots of useful and interesting information. So a big thank you! I have been practicing Vipassana Meditation as taught by SN Goenka for 8 years, including seven 10-day retreats, one 8-day Satipatthana retreat, and maintain daily practice. Will do my first 20-day retreat next year. And I would like to share my 2 cents to the topic of this video. You cited the Geonka method as the main example of Body Scan Meditation, but I think you missed the two key components of the technique - it's all about developing AWARENESS and EQUANIMITY. More specifically, objective awareness of Vedena / Body Sensations, which is clearly explained as the second awareness in the Satipatthana Sutra, and in the meantime no blind reactions to them with craving or aversion. The body-scan part is just a good technique for beginners to learn how to detect body sensations. More advanced practitioners can feel sensations all over the body without scanning. I would highly suggest you sign up for a 10-day retreat to find out more details and history of the Vipassana Meditation method.
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There’s a interview with Barry Lapping on Insight Myanmar just uploaded that answers lots of tricky questions
I practice the Body Scan (as tought by Kabat-Zinn) since more than 10 years on a regular basis, and nothing has cured my head-dominion as effectively as this practice.
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Good to know! Yes body practices can be very helpful at that. 😊
Really happy to see people question the origin of a technique from historic perspective.
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So glad you did this video Doug. I have spent time researching this very question-if the body scan was original to the Buddha- and did not come up with anything. Thank you for sharing this.
You're very welcome Lynn, and thanks for letting me know you found the same thing I did! It's nice to have some corroboration. 🙏
I have been practising U Ba Khin method for a long time. I learnt it from mu guru. According to my teacher, it was brought to Burma. The fable is it was taken to Burma by Maha Moggallana and Sariputta. But there no evidence for this precise form before the turn of 20th Century. U Ba Khin learned to meditate in 1937. He had two teachers: Saya Thetgyi and Webu Sayadaw. The U Ba Khin method probably came from Saya Thetgyi. Whether he innovated it or U Ba Khin adapted it is not know. But I know it works.
Yes, these methods are beneficial, and the history is also interesting! Thanks Ranjit.
I just like to thank you for your comment, however my knowledge for the first most teacher of Saya Thet Gyi is Ledi Sayadaw, not Webu Sayadaw.
Webu Sayadaw encouraged Sayagyi U Ba Khin to teach,Webu Sayadaw was not U Ba Khin’s teacher, the technique of Vipassana was brought to The Golden Land officially by the 2 Monks sent by Ashoka and continues to this day and unofficially previous to that by Guvampati a Arahut at the time of the Buddha and probably by the 2 merchants that met the Buddha after his enlightenment.
This gives me confidence to explore more methods. Thank you
You're very welcome SinjunART!
I am bipolar and and found that body scanning helps me to manage .my symptoms very well
Hey that's great to hear Peter, thanks for the info.
The proof of the pudding is in the eating. The best way to understand meditation is by the experience not by trying to interpret ancient texts
Fascinating topic! The MBSR body scan version by Jon Kabat-zinn was very helpful when I started meditating for chronic pain, it definitely opened multiple doors and was a precursor in my interest for the Dharma. I have a question, from the early buddhist perspective, when one practices breath meditation, where should one focus? I tend to focus on my the breath going in and out of my nostrils, because I feel chronic pain in my abdomen and it is hard to do abdominal breathing. Thanks Doug.
Thanks poikkiki! The instructions in early Buddhism are somewhat vague. They say to keep attention “parimukkham” which literally means “around the mouth” though could be taken more metaphorically to mean “in front of the face/body” or some such thing. That’s to say, it isn’t entirely clear. I don’t think it really matters frankly so long as you are focusing somewhere that you can sustain.
Just something I wanted to add, was that in the Burmese tradition As was told by U Ko Lay in an interview in the 90s when the senior monk of the Monastry thought that his student or students were established enough in Pariyatti and Patipatti he would leave them in charge and walk off into the forest either to attain the final Nibbana or live in seclusion, so in the tradition of Anatta there is no recorded historical evidence of different teachers until the British came along and started printing books
An interesting note, Webu Sayadaw, the Burmese monk (considered by some to have been an Arahant) who gave U Bha Khin the injunction to teach Dhamma, practiced (and i believe taught) awareness of the breath without a progressive body scan, but viewed U Bha Khin's method as being in line with the Dhamma and the Sattipatthana Sutta. From what I gather, the reasoning is that anapanasati will eventually lead to states in which there is an ability to observe sensation in the whole body (within the span of a breath cycle) likewise, the same if you enter into Bhanga or awareness of arising and passing of sensations be it from a progressive body scan, you can observe the entire body within a breath. Also of note lengthier courses Goenka instructs panoramic body awareness. As far as the whole notion of impurities in the body, this is actually quite central to the teaching method of Goenka, bodily impurities correspond to attachments, that is to say parts of the body/mind where impermanence is not fullly realized. Observing the coarse body with equanimity and a right understanding of impermanence leads to a mental purification of sorts. I am not an expert on MBSR (or Goenka's method for that matter) but I would chance that this purification, along with cultivation of metta is what distinguishes the methods further.
Thanks Elie, interesting thoughts!
@@westsidesmitty1 amazing. 10 day retreats are an amazing opportunity. They can definitely be difficult but remember you have carved out this precious time to add ease and grace to your life off the cushion. The meticulous instructions and the evening dhamma talks are all tools to make the daunting task managable. May you be free of all bondages for your benefit and the benefit of all sentient beings. 🙏❤☸🌍
What I know is Sayagyi U Ba Khin got this method from Saya Thet Gyi, the follower of Ledi Sayadaw and Saya Thet Gyi mentioned that he followed to Ledi Sayadaw's meditation instruction. I had never heard Saya Thet Gyi was Webu Sayadaw's follower.
@@tunaung8639 Sayagyi U Ba Khin learned this method from Saya Thetgyi indeed. To the best of my understanding when U Ba Khin was on the road for work he had a visit with Webu Sayadaw to pay respects as he was rumoured to be an Arahant, or at least very respected in meditation. Apparently during their correspondence Webu Sayadaw gave U Ba Khin the injunction to begin teaching. To my knowledge the methods are very similar and lead to the same result, the technique just varies slightly regarding when attention is to be given to sensations throughout the body vs. focussed only on the breath. Hope you have a fruitful summer of practice.
@Dough: I had done a Yoga Nidra course,
Really made a big difference to my life before I learned Vipassana. It's the next closest I have found to body scan & sounds exactly like MBSR that I haven't practiced, almost sounds same.
If I found more information, I'll share.
Interesting, yes I wonder where Yoga got that. Much of early Yoga practice actually comes from Buddhism so there was a lot of historical mixing.
Yes, also patanjali came around 400-500 BCE so it’s unimaginable that he wasn’t exposed to Vipassana & his 8 fold path is so similar to Buddha’s 8 fold path.
Even though conservative Hindus would like to predate Patanjali as ever-existing, but basing on facts there was no Yoga as we know of now & after Patanjali around the time of Buddha.
It must been a very interesting time.
@@abro99 wow that’s so interesting. But in the stories of Siddharth, it says he learned and tried all these yoga techniques but to no avail. What type of yoga was that?
Recently, I learned about a book about the birth of insight meditation, "The Birth of Insight: Meditation, Modern Buddhism, and the Burmese Monk Ledi Sayadaw. S.N. Goenka claims that his meditation method originated with Ledi Sayadaw. If one wants to learn more about the book, go to Amazon and enter the title. Click on the "Look Inside" button and read many pages at the beginning which are well worthwhile in themselves.
Yes, thanks Aron. I’ve cited that book in several of my older videos, for example on Insight meditation: ruclips.net/video/PNZRDPpszkI/видео.html , and on the South Asian roots of aspects of secular belief and practice: ruclips.net/video/y2kuztpY9hA/видео.html
It didn't start with ledi sayadaw but hr tought meditation to householder . The meditation is known as vipasana & tought by gauthama Buddha.
Loving the secular Buddha teaching
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I've sat three Goenka 10 day courses in the UK (Dhamma Dipa) and also served on two of these courses. Goenka claims that the Vipassana meditation taught is directly from the Buddha and from the satipatthana sutta. The core of the teaching, as I understand it; is that you observe your sensations in the body with equanimity and eventually craving and aversion cease and you experience pure joy. Actually what Eckhart Tolle calls the painbody will dissolve. In fact on these courses we are told that the physical discomfort experienced sitting for 11 hours a day (for example a pain in the leg) are stored defilements. By observing them they will eventually dissolve. The whole course and indeed the worldwide organisation is centered around Goenka including the discourses shown each evening on the course and recorded by Goenka back in 1992. So if you sit the course say 20 times then you listen to the same thing 20 times. Goenka is treated as a god like figure speaking the ultimate truth and there is no other truth. When you enter the administration side of the organisation, as I have; you see that most of the senior people never smile. There is no joy. Sitting for hours on end and holding a blank face seems to be the measure of success. I started to get an unease about the cult vibration around the centre when I started to serve. I started to question the method. For example why on the first day of each course do complete beginners start straightaway by sitting for one hour; many times during the day? Would it be better to sit for say 10 or 15 minutes then go for a cup of tea and gradually increase the sitting time? However I do like what Buddhism has to offer and started to look around of other people who have a softer approach; hence arriving at this channel. It would be really interesting for Doug to go on one of these Goenka courses and come back with a view.
Well that certainly doesn’t sound very alluring! I’ve heard that sort of story before from people who had been at Goenka retreats, but also a lot of positive stories as well. Perhaps it depends on the center and how it is run. Thanks John.
Question, when I went on the Goenka retreat in N. California I talked to several people deeply involved in the Vipassana community. They go on 40 day retreats. Do they watch the same Goenka videos I watched on the 10 day retreat? Is it the same structured meditation practice? I too have been puzzled by the claim that body scanning is taught in the Pali Canon. Not to say for many it isn’t an effective practice....
I did vipasana 10day retreat in south india i can assure u there only one photo of sn goenka in the management office and no sir he his not respected or protraied godley .
@SuperNoone89 hello, I’m unable to locate Ajahn Nyamoli or that video. Links, please?
A 10 day is very hard and what sometimes seems to hard for some people and they don’t understand what was taught in the course and then try to blame the organisation for anything they can poke a stick at, try listening to Barry Lappings interview on Insight Myanmar for some real insight
if someone wants to learn about these meditations it's free by the official dhamma organization which only runs by donations from benefited students like me. I would recommend going to the retreat place ( someone sensitive to energy can feel the vibes there too ) where food and accommodation are free.
Yes Goenka's organization does run retreats based only on voluntary donation.
I came across an example of body scan meditation when researching the profound Cha'n teachings of Bodhidharma. Allegedly, when discovering many monastics were very unhealthy and suffering from "sitting" sickness, he was instrumental in devising a form of fitness routine which were probably borrowed from ancient Taoist teachings for internal health called QiGong.
Yes, fitness is a very important component to a healthy life. I think the Zen masters understood this when they included work along with meditation. Of course in ancient India the monastics had to walk long distances for their alms rounds which would have given them exercise as well.
Where did you read that? I thought the words attributed to him were considered apocrypha.
@@bobg.7976 Indeed, he is kind of a mythical figure in the West, mostly known for founding Shaolin Temple and KungFu. I got most of my information from the extensive library of Fo Guang Shan Buddhist organization based in Taiwan. Bodhidharma is also much revered by Zen Buddhist orders in Japan , although in the West some of his profound teachings are quite often intertwined with the teachings of Ch'an master Seng T'san.
@@DougsDharma That's what stands out about Gautama Buddha and his devotees. Even if one puts all the religiousness aside, Siddhartha and his followers lived well past their 80's whilst the rest of the population barely made it past 30 years of age. I think we can all learn something from that.
Mael-Strom Interesting! He is venerated in Soto Zen as the first ancestor in China and his image (very stylized) is front and center in the zendo. I had no idea he is venerated in other Buddhist traditions.
Akong Rinpoche teaches a nice take on this in his book, Taming The Tiger. It's basically the body scan only you sit cross-legged (or I guess on a chair) and work your way up the body. He uses a great metaphor for the return journey, though - basically, he describes it like pulling a plug out of your foot and letting your awareness move down the body as if it's water escaping.
Interesting Jorri! I wonder if that is a metaphor he came up with himself, or if it comes from an earlier text.
@@DougsDharma I don't know, to be honest, but it does sound like something you might read in the pali scriptures doesn't it. Being Tibetan, I guess Akong may have deferred more to the sutras than the pali canon but that said I know his brother, Lama Yeshe, is well respected by the Theravadan community so they may both have read widely within the pali tradition, too.
It is possible that it is only natural that we will objetivize the body as one of the results of coming out of deeper states of meditation, which are not objetivizing. As we do scanning the body, it will only result in a transformational effect, using the old cause effect analogy, when meditation succeed, paradoxically with no purpose, in making the object-subject relationship dissapear. As when we reach deeper states...
From Taoism, (Zen was created when, the Buddha's teaching reached the bed where they intermingled), Mantak Chia, proposed an inner smile meditation that work with this scanning plus some positive visualization... I have personally benefited from this. I look foward to find out about the sources of the meditation technics you mentioned. (Used this expression improperly, as there is no techne here only poiesis...)
The I, of course, has to dissapear in the process, as objetivation cease... But the I reappears, do not worry, attachment to an fixated illusory self will continue... But as this is repeated again, and again..., a dissapearing Self appear, this is non attachment... The stuff Buddhas are made of...
The historically produced, for us now natural tendency to think in Aristotelian Logic, forgets that the Buddha belong to pre aristotelian times... The subject-object relationship can not be thought in our occidental recent ways... The indian logic employed by him was fully exposed and developped further by Nagarjuna...
SOO Enlightening
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Just started watching this channel and am very grateful because it's fantastic content. Are there any podcasts from Doug?
Thanks Jeff, that’s very kind of you. I don’t make a podcast, though I have been interviewed several times over at the Secular Buddhist podcast. I have made it possible to download audio-only versions of these videos over at my Patreon page if that interests you. 🙏
I tried body scanning after watching a Frank Yang video where he explained how he does it. By the time I got to my upper torso I could no longer feel a body at all. It felt like the only part of my body still in existence was the part I was scanning. It felt as though I was now pinpointing the sensation. Of coarse I got a bit startled and lost the experience. lol Even though I know I am not suppose to chase experiences..its hard not to. lol
Cool vid, informative.
Glad you liked it!
Could goenka's method be a systematic way to perform vedanupassana?
For sure, it's one method.
Water moving through sand is exactly what you experience by doing the body scan method taught by SN Goenka, of course it doesn’t always happen on your first or second course but it does happen, the talk by Patrick Given-Wilson on Sayathetgyi who was believed to be a Anāgāmi explains how when or after taking a dip he asked his teacher Ledi Sayadaw if moving through the body was inline with what the Buddha taught and the response was affirmative, feeling the body in one breath is also a result of body scanning is taught by SN Goenka it is a much faster version of water flowing through sand because your awareness moves with your breath some people experience on the first course others second third maybe even fourth or fifth course. Patrick Given-Wilson also describes this when talking about Webu Sayadaw and that Webu Sayadaw also describe the same phenomenal. You can find Patrick Given-Wilson’s talks on RUclips
In some other cultures I think there is less of an emphasis on enumerating everything that goes into a topic being written about. For example I'm in a Facebook group that is about West African cooking. When they share their recipes they don't include any measurements and they also don't include an order of steps or a description of how the foods are made. It just exists on the premise that everyone in that group understands what they're working on and what all of the foods and ingredients are. Maybe this is the same way, where everyone within early Buddhism knew that they did the meditations that way and so when they wrote about them they didn't enumerate the steps for performing meditation.
Sure, the instructions for meditation in the early texts are very compressed. That said, the monastics were memorizing them for a reason: in order to teach those in the future about how it was done. So they must have expected later people might become confused.
Yoga nidra seems to have at least a little similarity but starts with the thumbs and fingers and covers the body in a different sequence. I'm certainly no yoga expert but get the impression that it progresses in a way that us consistent with beliefs about the flow of energy through the body in certain schools of yoga. Where yoga nidra really diverges is the second part is usually a guided visualization almost like a shamanic journey and return typically to a scene of natural beauty and tranquility. I think this may be a more recent practice and don't know where it gets its roots.
I found a few sources that attribute modern yoga nidra to Swami Satyananda Saraswati in the early sixties but also claims that it traces back to Sankhya philosophy (first written down around 700 BC but dating back to around 1000 BC through verbal teaching) I don't know if there is any documentation to back up the earlier claim.
There is a very good recent book on the origins of yoga by James Mallinson. IIRC modern yoga is basically a fusion of early Vedic teachings with Buddhist ideas as well. So this still raises the question of whether the contemporary yoga practices came from something earlier or from Buddhist influences somewhere. Or from parallel development of course.
@@DougsDharma Thanks for mentioning the book I'm checking it out. As a young teenager my mom was active with the Alfred Adler Institute so I got to attend a UD lecture and learn progressive muscle relaxation from Harold Mozak, but did not appreciate fully what a rare privilege that was at the time. That was my first contact with something like meditation, which I learned more later in biofeedback training when I developed classical migraine headaches, thankfully I don't get those anymore. In learning about mindfulness, I realized that the headaches began after a specific trauma and went away many years later when the trauma was resolved, amazing how something of the mind could have such dramatic, physical effects.
Indeed it is! Thanks Jonathan.
Thanks Doug. Goenka claims that his practice comes directly from the Buddha, that it was passed along through the generations (and almost forgotten) until it arrived and has been preserved in its original form in Myanmar. Of course, I’ve never found any historical evidence to support this...
Yes, that’s true Andrew. Thanks!
Another point I'd make is that one thing that certainly is a very modern development in mindfulness meditation is the idea that mindfulness is "non-judgemental". This seems to come from Jon Kabat Zinn. In early Buddhism, mindfulness (sati) is quite the opposite - it is purposeful, discriminating and goal-driven. There are a number of scholars and other writers who have made this point.
Well, the non-judgmental nature of mindfulness is derived from the phrase "rid of desire and aversion for the world" found in the preamble. That is, one is to look without preference on whatever arises. The point of mindfulness meditation however is as you describe: purposeful, discriminating, and goal driven. We look without desire or aversion so as to see how things are. Once we know how things are, we are able to choose the skillful from the unskillful.
make video on overthinking
please🍒🍒🍒🍒🍒🍒
Love from INDIA🇮🇳🇮🇳🇮🇳
This video might be helpful Shubham: ruclips.net/video/cUOMhvKrks8/видео.html
@Dough : I have been practicing Vipassana for few years now & my life has transformed in every possible way.
However I always found it challenging to find materials or perspectives which were neutral to The Teachings of Buddha than coming from a sect. I have been watching your videos for hours now & seem like your work will be saving a significant time for research & help me make further choices.
I'm so happy, delighted, excited to have found your channel when in my practice I have been asking for some guide maps for last bit. I'm equally greatful & eager to watch all your videos as they answer a lot of the questions I was manually trying to seek answers.
I'm already a fanboy, just sharing feelings as it arose. I will be looking deeper into your other resources once I start digging in further.
Lots of Metta
Abhi :-)
Hey great to hear Abhi, thanks for the kind comment! Be well. 🙏🙂
Hi Dhama friend.fron u ba kin...goes back to his teacher...and fron this goes to ledy shayadu...there is the awnser...
Maybe so, but if so I'd be interested to know where they got it from ... 🙂
Thanks for you replay. Fron Shidarta to his Shanga. ..and for us..?? Metta for all.
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Is this what they do at the end of the 10 day Vipassana meditation boot camp?
Gu Nesnaj I have never been to a Vipassana meditation boot camp, but I've read that the first 3 days you focus on body scans and you move on to insight meditation/open awareness meditation. I've also heard they are quite rough for people with limited experience in meditation, but I wonder if someone could share their direct experience.
@@poikkiki Ok. I almost went but I had to renounce my meditation practices. I felt not comfortable with the whole thing, more of a painfull brainwashing session to me. But I love their book: The art of living.
I did one of those 10 day Vipassana meditation retreats. You sit and meditate on the body a LOT. I spend like 14 hours a day meditating. To be honest I didn't enjoy it but my problem was that I went to one of those shortly after I began a meditation practice. (It's kind of like someone who took up jogging a month ago and then decided to run a marathon. Not a really smart idea.) Now that I have had a firm meditation practice for a few years now I think I could do it with no problem.
I haven’t been to one either but my understanding is that body scan tends to be done more towards the beginning than the end. It might depend on the teacher though.
@@DougsDharma They do focus on the body scan more in the beginning. At least that was my experience for my 10 day retreat.
Very nice video! All that you were explaining sounds completely like Reiki technique to me. Do you think its the same as reiki or there are some differences?
I'm not familiar with Reiki except that my understanding is that it involves "energy healing" which is a different concept entirely.
So I know this is a very old video but a thought just occurred to me. I'm curious if body scan meditation may have originated within the Thai forest tradition. It's a very popular method with the ahjans, specifically ahjan Chah and sona and Thanissaro Bhikkhu. I'll have to do some more research but it may be a good place to start.
I'd be interested to know if your research turns anything up! It certainly could have originated in the Thai forest tradition, but my suspicion is that it goes farther back. (Though not to the Buddha himself).
@@DougsDharma yes, I believe you are correct. My search hasn't lead me to any conclusive answers but it has brought me down the road of yoga. At first, I thought possibly Patanjali may be somewhat responsible for what we know today as body scan meditation but I wanted to look back further so I dug up what I could on Alara Kalama meditation techniques and it seems that they're more akin to transcendental meditation. I feel it must have originated between Kalama and Patanjali somewhere but not with the Buddha himself. Any thoughts?
Thanks
My pleasure!
We have focused attention meditation and open monitoring... Is body scan more of a focused attention meditation because we use focus?
That's right, as it's ordinarily practiced a body scan involves scanning focus around the body.
Thank you for sharing video on this topic.. Was searching video on this topic for a quiet long time. Is body awareness can heal depression n pcod?
I'm not sure about the evidence for the effect of body scan meditation, but to my understanding it can help us relax. It's a practice used a lot in Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction (MBSR).
Do you think that insight meditation has to be done in the form of body scans? It seems like goenka likes to seperate vipassana from breath meditation. I feel like you can develop insight at the same time as you work on concentration of breath.
I think it's only really Goenka who makes body scan integral to Insight meditation. In the early tradition it's done first just with breathing meditation, as you say.
@@DougsDharma thanks for getting back to me. Love your videos, can tell you know your stuff
Doug, Thanks so much for your videos. I have watched them often and learned a lot.
Can Vipassana according to SN Goenka be said to be of the Theravada lineage?
Please clarify where SN Goenka's Vipassana would be located among the various lineages of Buddhism.
Yes Henrique I believe Goenka’s teachers were Theravādins and his teaching is generally Theravāda in character, although from a somewhat secular perspective.
Usually i do it from head to feet
Sure, that's another option. I usually hear it from the other direction but I don't really think it makes any difference.
True. The aim is to attain peace
This meditation I did and believe me it gave me so much peace that I forgot the both my legs right from toe to the lower back were in pain
Thanks
did goenka 10 days body scan vipassana. what does scan do??? teaching is to avoid love and hate to sensations, sort of teaching to avoid attachment and aversion to all sensation and feelings. also see reality clearly and in moderation???
Yes it's a good practice for many people.
I think the whole the body being undesirable thing is falling far short of what is actually going on.
Sure, some separation from the body and from the desire to find bodies attractive is great. However, it makes zero sense to me to have that be the sole purpose of becoming so aware of the makeup of everything in the body.
It makes more sense to me that part of the reason to do so is to obtain some control over the more automated bodily processes.
To me the impurities can also mean things that are not supposed to be in a healthy body. That becoming aware of them can give one the ability to get rid of them. It helps to be aware of what is wrong with the body at a fine tune prospective when you are trying fix it. (however, it is not necessary all the time, you can let your subconscious handle the fine tune stuff... At least at first.)
Ergo, I learned how to get my sinues to drain by just mediating, discovering just how congested they were and then asking my body to drain them. Much later, I discovered that there are muscles in our nasel passages and sinues that my subconscious was controlling. By asking my body to fix the issue of congestion, it triggered my subconscious to relax them. I now can directly control those muscles.
On top of that, I'm now able to both make the miscual membranes in that area produce more mucas or absorb it.
All this stuff straight up is about ending suffering.
To tie it into the ultimate end of suffering, nirvana; ergo extinguishment. (of all sensations, presence and deisres, ergo death.) It makes sense to me that one way to accomplish that is to become aware of everything that our physical bodies do and to be able to control it... To the point that we stop all bodily processes and "leave our bodies".. Ergo, die.
Or I guess, Mahasamadi.
So really, I feel like MBSR and mindful relaxation etc have something going for them because they take mindfulness of sensation (and desire etc) to the level of controlling.
Thanks Ogden. For some discussion on “bodily control” see for example my earlier video on the Buddha’s second sermon: ruclips.net/video/Ro0BV84dci4/видео.html
Great video again. Thank you. I am curious as to why Goenka has dubbed his meditation style « vipassana », even though it doesn’t seem to fit the idea of insight meditation. It seems more like a shamatha on body sensations.
That’s right Andrés but there is more to it than just calming. Calming is one aspect, but I believe Goenka then moves on to Insight practices.
What is your idea of insight meditation practice? Goenka and Sayadaw Mahasi seem to have had the biggest influence with Vipassana lay practitioners, at least in N California. To answer your question, in the Goenka books and his videos you watch on retreat, Goenka believed liberation comes through a visceral apprehension of or impermanence. Identify with the physical, liberation comes through the body, you might say. By noting the ebb and flow of bodily sensations the practitioner can gain the necessary insight of impermanence to free oneself from dukkha or suffering.
Doug raises some good questions though, there is nothing in the Canon to back the claim that the Buddha taught this practice. But so what...you can say the same of Zen Buddhist practices. Or the strange practices of some Tibetan schools.
@@bobg.7976 My knowledge is mainly based on Tibetan Buddhist practices. In those schools, a dichotomy is made between "shamatha" and "vipashyana". They define the latter essentially as an attempt to search for the "self", and fail to do so, thereby gaining a direct realization of no-self. They go about it roughly in two steps:
1) Start with an "analytical meditation", whereby you deconstruct your person, as in "I am not my leg, I am not my arms, ....", until you get to your mind. There, you start to observed how thoughts are impermanent, and intangible, and therefore cannot be the self.
2) After trying hard to "locate" the self, one rests in non-conceptual observation.
I haven't studied Goenka's works in detail, just heard a few talks by his followers. They seems very focused on the body scan, but didn't seem to address the no-self issue at all. That's why I posed this question.
That's right Bob. Personally I think the body scan is a very good and useful practice.
I agree the difference between the two modes is a little unclear. But Goenka practice has some incredible testimonials - when a young man Stephen Batchelor was studying in Dharamsala with one of the Dalai Lama’s disciples. The lama told him to go study with Goenka (amazing in itself). He attended a 10 day retreat with the master in India and said it was a revelation.
I thought the retreat was well worth doing, but at the end of the day (or 10 days) not so different than retreats in other schools. Goenka’s notions about sankharas are quite stimulating - maybe Doug should take that on in a video!!
Perfect clickbate sir.😂👌
😄 Well I thought it was a fun photo. 😀
Not sure where U Ba Khin get the full body scan meditation technique but he was first introduced to meditation by U Thet Gyi who was the deciple of Ledi Sayadaw en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ledi_Sayadaw who revive( reintroduced) the interest in meditation in Burma (arguably the world)
Thanks, yes it would be interesting to research how this developed!
Goenka way is Vipassana, head to feet feet to head, purpose is not to sleep but be awake and scan the sensations without reacting and improve the quality of life
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