Herreweghe is my man in all Bach vocal music for the subtlety of his approach,for the beauty of tone which informs all his music-making,and for his lack of pedantry about period instrument interpretations.It's unfortunate that possibly his finest St. Matthew never made it on to disc but is preserved on good old RUclips:Christoph Pregardien gives the performance of his life as the Evangelist,and the singing generally is simply fabulous. Your humour is irrepressible,and I learn something from each of your talks even if the music isn't to my taste (rarely),and your choices may not be mine.
My thoughts exactly ! His RUclips performance of the St Matthew Passion is indeed stunningly beautiful. For those who never saw and heard it: check it out and witness perfection.
Thank you for the shoutout to Ralf Otto and his Mainz forces. Being from Germany and living near Weilburg where the "Schlosskonzerte" take place I had the pleasure to hear Ralf Otto there live on two occasions with the B minor mass and with Monteverdis Vespro della Beata Vergine (you should do a video on that work! It lacks the evangelist though ;) ). Loved both performances and can only endorse your recommendation!
Thanks Dave. The long Passions are best heard in a church where all the senses are stimulated. In this respect I was amused by your invocation of the stench of his choir. In spite of this it always amazes me how the Thomanerchor managed to so quickly learn all the intricacies of these challenging scores, even if the singing was not always to Bach's high standard.
I love the van Veldhoven St. Matthew, and the sound is really superb in multichannel playback, which clarifies the incredible complexity in the opening chorus and elsewhere. I only wish I'd bought their b minor mass on SACD when it was available.
Agree. I wish they'd reissue the Veldhoven B minor mass. It is almost impossible to find second hand. Ebay sellers are asking more than U.S. $500 for a copy!
Thank you Mr. Hurwitz!!! Considering the fact that I flog myself with this piece every Good Friday (no sacrilegious pun intended), I am waaaaay over your twice in a lifetime recommendation. But at least I know I’m listening to a good one. Mazel Tov!
Veldhoven also does a fine and joyous version of the cantata-based Easter Oratorio, an instance where the orchestra does became very important in the rousing opening.
As far as I'm concerned one could easily pick Herreweghe for all of these, but let's follow the rules and offer an alternative list to DH: Magnificat: Suzuki Christmas Oratorio: Harnoncourt II (Christine Schäfer, Bernarda Fink, Werner Güra, Gerald Finley and Christian Gerhaher: What's not to love? I initially abhorred Harnoncourts emphatic style when I first heard it as a 12-year old, though. Love it now. The Concentus has such a warm sound!) St. John Passion: Gardiner II or Stephen Layton. (Both have excellent evangelists in Mark Padmore and Ian Bostridge and quite stunning choral work) St. Matthew Passion: Herreweghe II (Pure perfection) B-minor Mass: Mortensen (They do this 2 to a part, I believe; a rare example where small forces really work, in my mind. The soloists are uniformly excellent and blend very well for once)
personally (it's all just a matter of taste) I adore the one voice per part recording of the Magnificat that Pierlot directs with Maria Keohane. The tuning of the chords in the Gloria is so beautiful and I love how the 5 soloists do the trills (choirs doing trills are a bit dodgy)
Hello Dave, since you enjoy Magnificat so much I would like to bring to your attention a wonderful recording on 1970 Eterna done by Kurt Thomas, Gewandhausorchester with Thomanerchor, Agnes Giebel, Marga Höfgen, Hans-Joachim Rotzsch and Hermann Prey. What is (among others) so wonderful here, is the continuo by Hannes Kästner (organ). Bach (in the section "Quia fecit mihi magna") wrote only the bass continuo line, which means that each performance is in this part different, depending on a continuo player. And Mr. Kästner is just marvelous here (I even like him more than otherwise my favorite K. Richter)!
I also like Jos Van Veldhoven in the Christmas Oratorio. The Matthew Passion The second Herreweghe recording, or the Third Harnoncourt The St. John Passion. Gardiner. I will have to try the Otto recordings on Naxos. I also have Jacobs on Harmonia Mundi for the Matthew Passion.
Yes! Beginning of St John passion must be frightening! (I've actuallly heard a more frightening version than the one you played but can't remember who did it.) As for the Matthew Passion, my most moving experience of it was attending the Jonathan Miller production in New York & then a few years later in London, when the group had apparently really learned a lot about the piece. That second performance was profound. It made sense of the drama with a very spare & effective "staging". It would never have occurred to me that staging could shed such light on the music and the story...the story being *the main point for Bach* (speaking of "authenticity"). Also it was in English, which, surprisingly to me, was great.
While there are certainly modern instrument Bach recordings that overly Romanticize and slow things down, there are also period instrument performances which overcompensate by taking things lightning quickly. Thanks for steering us to some Goldilocks “just right” tempo performances.
Some years ago, in my town's music festival, I remember sitting through St. Matthew's Passion conducted by Corboz , held at the main church, on those hard wood benches. Halfway through the concert, everyone was twisting around in discomfort.
Well that wasn't the music's fault, but the truth is that in a church setting it can be a punishment, for sure. Then again, what's a penitential Lutheran to do on Good Friday?
Thank you for discussing these great works! My choice for the Magnificent is on a Harmonia Mundi set by Collegium Gent with Herreweghe that also has Christmas cantatas. He performs the E-flat version with interpolated hymns that thanks to CD tracking you can omit! Herreweghe is such a great Bach conductor. For the Christmas Oratorio I am in total agreement with you. Jacobs has wonderful soloists and doesn’t rush things. I do not have the St. John Passion, but will get the Otto you recommend at Naxos’s price. For St. Matthew I go for Gardiner’s Archiv recording with terrific soloists Rolfe Johnson, Andreas Schmidt, Barbara Bonney, von Otter, et al. This is one work that shouldn’t drag and Gardiner’s tempos are spot on. For the B minor Mass, I also love Gardiner’s first recording again with great choir and soloists and Michael Thompson’s fabulous horn solo. However, since I already chose Gardiner, I am also enjoying a terrific performance by the Thomas Choir and Freiburg Baroque Orchestra/Biller on an Accentus DVD. It’s great fun to watch the singers and the period instrumentalists, especially those long trumpets and the natural horn.
As a singer of Bachchor Mainz I’d like to thank you so much for your kind recommendation of our St. John Passion recording! If you are in the mood I would kindly suggest to listen to our newest recording of “Ein Deutsches Requiem” by Johannes Brahms available as of today! This a rare recording including Organ and to harps! This version was recommended by Brahms himself. But since he left the choice of organ ad libidum you rarely hear those instruments in most recordings!
“Apart from the complex genesis of Brahms’ German Requiem several other components indicate that the composer had the urgent wish to create an extraordinary sound design that was based on much more than just historical composition techniques. In 1871, for instance, a version of the composition was performed in London for which Brahms had arranged the orchestral setting for piano four-hands that leaves much more scope for the dynamism of the choir. It seems that right from the start the composer had an elaborate sound design in mind that went far beyond the use of rather unusual instruments (the two harps, for example): it is especially the instrumental parts for contrabassoon and organ that Brahms regarded as essential, even though their parts have the indication ‘ad libitum’, i.e., Brahms left their actual execution to the interpreter’s discretion. That is why-up to now-both instruments have been left out in most performances and recordings. However, the new recording presented here features both instruments! The score of the first print does not include the parts of organ and contrabassoon. The organ part that Brahms had composed himself could already be heard in the Bremen ‘premiere’ but was just attached to the score. In the score of the first complete edition of Brahms’ works (1927 by Eusebius Mandyczewski), however, the organ part was integrated into the notation. Brahms’ personal copy of the score has the instruction to specifically highlight the contrabassoon part. This was put into practice in concerts in Vienna that Brahms conducted himself. Both contrabassoon and organ definitely featured in the performances at the Großer Musikvereinssaal on 28 February 1875, at the Vienna Hofoper on 2 November 1879 and most probably also in the concert repeated on 3 November 1879. In most of the movements-and specifically almost throughout movement I-it is essential that the pedal of the organ is used. The sometimes subtly notated chordal sections intensify the recurring passages and are thus (for example in movement II in connection with the words ‘For all flesh it is like grass’) strictly word-related. The fulltoned sound of the organ is also given a vital role in the colla parte accompaniment of the fugue in movement III (‘The righteous’ souls are in God’s hand …’); in movement V the organ remains completely silent. Apart from using the ‘king of instruments’ for intensifying the tone colours of the bass register, Brahms generally uses this instrument for cadenzas and the finale, which creates a ‘sacred aura’ and might therefore have been particularly important for Brahms. Also the contrabassoon (not featuring in movements IV and V) enormously contributes to intensifying the tone colours of the deep sound register. The fact that organ and contrabassoon enrich the instrumental setting and thus the expressiveness of the work’s tonal dimension is certainly an argument for not leaving out these two instruments.” (Naxos)
Thank you for your comments and suggestion. I attended a performance in Carnegie Hall of the new critical edition of the German Requiem, and I also have your new recording. I have to confess that the slow tempos alarm me a bit, but we shall see how well the performance sustains them. The proof is in the listening!
What do you think of Suzuki and the bach collegium japan and their interpretations? I really like their magnificat, Christmas oratorio - it was the first version of the work that I heard - and the st. Matthew passion, their first recording. When I look for period instruments in bach, I first of all think Suzuki.
Dear David, wonderful video as always. I do not know if I am am crazy but I hear a similar atmosphere between the beginning of the St John's Passion and the beginning of Petterson's Symphony 8. Has someone felt the same?
I hear exactly what you mean--that gaunt, scary gloom carried on a persistent string ostinato. I wouldn't allege that Pettersson was influenced ini any way, but the similarity is striking,
I do listen to these regularly (the Christmas Oratorio and the Passions are seasonal music for me). So this is one where the one conductor per piece is particularly difficult. I agree on Jacobs for the Oratorio, but I also listen to his St. Matthew most often. When I don't, I again agree with Netherland BS is my second choice, and perhaps my first choice for the Mass. Which is to say, I like Akademie für Alte Musik just a little better than Netherland BS for all of these pieces. I have yet to listen to Akademie für Alte Musik's St. John. Dunedin Consort adds their own little twists, like recording the St. John as a service. BTW, I agree that the opening of the St. John may be the most amazing of Bach's compositions--I always thought it could have been composed in the 20th century. Looking forward to more The 16 and Handel. Why hasn't everyone recorded Ariodante?
Harnoncourt's 1973 Christmas Oratorio with Concentus Musicus is very worthy but has something that bugs me: as a compulsive meta-tagger, there's no credit for the soprano soloist except "Soloist of the Vienna Boys Choir". Why would they not credit the kid by name? We get names for all the other soloists.
I really appreciate that there's at least one music critic who tells people that it's OK to not like some of Bach's works. I like the Christmas Oratorio and the Magnificat myself, but I don't really care for the passions (if you exclude the wonderful choruses) and I think the b Minor mass has the best material right at the start and gets duller as it goes on (Crucifixus excluded).
You can see Veldhoven and the Netherlands Bach Society in videos on the allofbach website or on youtube--high definition and in excellent sound.
Herreweghe is my man in all Bach vocal music for the subtlety of his approach,for the beauty of tone which informs all his music-making,and for his lack of pedantry about period instrument interpretations.It's unfortunate that possibly his finest St. Matthew never made it on to disc but is preserved on good old RUclips:Christoph Pregardien gives the performance of his life as the Evangelist,and the singing generally is simply fabulous.
Your humour is irrepressible,and I learn something from each of your talks even if the music isn't to my taste (rarely),and your choices may not be mine.
My thoughts exactly ! His RUclips performance of the St Matthew Passion is indeed stunningly beautiful. For those who never saw and heard it: check it out and witness perfection.
Mine as well together with Koopman.
I can quite agree!
Thank you for the shoutout to Ralf Otto and his Mainz forces. Being from Germany and living near Weilburg where the "Schlosskonzerte" take place I had the pleasure to hear Ralf Otto there live on two occasions with the B minor mass and with Monteverdis Vespro della Beata Vergine (you should do a video on that work! It lacks the evangelist though ;) ). Loved both performances and can only endorse your recommendation!
Thanks Dave. The long Passions are best heard in a church where all the senses are stimulated. In this respect I was amused by your invocation of the stench of his choir. In spite of this it always amazes me how the Thomanerchor managed to so quickly learn all the intricacies of these challenging scores, even if the singing was not always to Bach's high standard.
I love the van Veldhoven St. Matthew, and the sound is really superb in multichannel playback, which clarifies the incredible complexity in the opening chorus and elsewhere. I only wish I'd bought their b minor mass on SACD when it was available.
Agree. I wish they'd reissue the Veldhoven B minor mass. It is almost impossible to find second hand. Ebay sellers are asking more than U.S. $500 for a copy!
Thank you Mr. Hurwitz!!! Considering the fact that I flog myself with this piece every Good Friday (no sacrilegious pun intended), I am waaaaay over your twice in a lifetime recommendation. But at least I know I’m listening to a good one. Mazel Tov!
Veldhoven also does a fine and joyous version of the cantata-based Easter Oratorio, an instance where the orchestra does became very important in the rousing opening.
As far as I'm concerned one could easily pick Herreweghe for all of these, but let's follow the rules and offer an alternative list to DH:
Magnificat: Suzuki
Christmas Oratorio: Harnoncourt II (Christine Schäfer, Bernarda Fink, Werner Güra, Gerald Finley and Christian Gerhaher: What's not to love? I initially abhorred Harnoncourts emphatic style when I first heard it as a 12-year old, though. Love it now. The Concentus has such a warm sound!)
St. John Passion: Gardiner II or Stephen Layton. (Both have excellent evangelists in Mark Padmore and Ian Bostridge and quite stunning choral work)
St. Matthew Passion: Herreweghe II (Pure perfection)
B-minor Mass: Mortensen (They do this 2 to a part, I believe; a rare example where small forces really work, in my mind. The soloists are uniformly excellent and blend very well for once)
I agree that Mortensen is the best with small forces. He’s a tremendous musician.
Pierlot does an excellent one-to-a-part Bach too, in my opinion. Especially in the early cantatas, which work best like that anyway.
personally (it's all just a matter of taste) I adore the one voice per part recording of the Magnificat that Pierlot directs with Maria Keohane. The tuning of the chords in the Gloria is so beautiful and I love how the 5 soloists do the trills (choirs doing trills are a bit dodgy)
Hello Dave, since you enjoy Magnificat so much I would like to bring to your attention a wonderful recording on 1970 Eterna done by Kurt Thomas, Gewandhausorchester with
Thomanerchor, Agnes Giebel, Marga Höfgen, Hans-Joachim Rotzsch and Hermann Prey.
What is (among others) so wonderful here, is the continuo by Hannes Kästner (organ).
Bach (in the section "Quia fecit mihi magna") wrote only the bass continuo line, which means
that each performance is in this part different, depending on a continuo player. And Mr. Kästner is just marvelous here (I even like him more than otherwise my favorite K. Richter)!
I have it and enjoy it.
I also like Jos Van Veldhoven in the Christmas Oratorio. The Matthew Passion The second Herreweghe recording, or the Third Harnoncourt The St. John Passion. Gardiner. I will have to try the Otto recordings on Naxos. I also have Jacobs on Harmonia Mundi for the Matthew Passion.
Yes! Beginning of St John passion must be frightening! (I've actuallly heard a more frightening version than the one you played but can't remember who did it.)
As for the Matthew Passion, my most moving experience of it was attending the Jonathan Miller production in New York & then a few years later in London, when the group had apparently really learned a lot about the piece. That second performance was profound. It made sense of the drama with a very spare & effective "staging". It would never have occurred to me that staging could shed such light on the music and the story...the story being *the main point for Bach* (speaking of "authenticity"). Also it was in English, which, surprisingly to me, was great.
While there are certainly modern instrument Bach recordings that overly Romanticize and slow things down, there are also period instrument performances which overcompensate by taking things lightning quickly. Thanks for steering us to some Goldilocks “just right” tempo performances.
Some years ago, in my town's music festival, I remember sitting through St. Matthew's Passion conducted by Corboz , held at the main church, on those hard wood benches. Halfway through the concert, everyone was twisting around in discomfort.
Well that wasn't the music's fault, but the truth is that in a church setting it can be a punishment, for sure. Then again, what's a penitential Lutheran to do on Good Friday?
What about us, Roman Catholics?
Thank you for discussing these great works! My choice for the Magnificent is on a Harmonia Mundi set by Collegium Gent with Herreweghe that also has Christmas cantatas. He performs the E-flat version with interpolated hymns that thanks to CD tracking you can omit! Herreweghe is such a great Bach conductor. For the Christmas Oratorio I am in total agreement with you. Jacobs
has wonderful soloists and doesn’t rush things. I do not have the St. John Passion, but will get the Otto you recommend at Naxos’s price. For St. Matthew I go for Gardiner’s Archiv recording with terrific soloists Rolfe Johnson, Andreas Schmidt, Barbara Bonney, von Otter, et al. This is one work that shouldn’t drag and Gardiner’s tempos are spot on. For the B minor Mass, I also love Gardiner’s first recording again with great choir and soloists and Michael Thompson’s fabulous horn solo. However, since I already chose Gardiner, I am also enjoying a terrific performance by the Thomas Choir and Freiburg Baroque Orchestra/Biller on an Accentus DVD. It’s great fun to watch the singers and the period instrumentalists, especially those long trumpets and the natural horn.
As a singer of Bachchor Mainz I’d like to thank you so much for your kind recommendation of our St. John Passion recording! If you are in the mood I would kindly suggest to listen to our newest recording of “Ein Deutsches Requiem” by Johannes Brahms available as of today! This a rare recording including Organ and to harps! This version was recommended by Brahms himself. But since he left the choice of organ ad libidum you rarely hear those instruments in most recordings!
“Apart from the complex genesis of Brahms’ German Requiem several other components indicate that the composer had the urgent wish to create an extraordinary sound design that was based on much more than just historical composition techniques. In 1871, for instance, a version of the composition was performed in London for which Brahms had arranged the orchestral setting for piano four-hands that leaves much more scope for the dynamism of the choir.
It seems that right from the start the composer had an elaborate sound design in mind that went far beyond the use of rather unusual instruments (the two harps, for example): it is especially the instrumental parts for contrabassoon and organ that Brahms regarded as essential, even though their parts have the indication ‘ad libitum’, i.e., Brahms left their actual execution to the interpreter’s discretion. That is why-up to now-both instruments have been left out in most performances and recordings. However, the new recording presented here features both instruments!
The score of the first print does not include the parts of organ and contrabassoon. The organ part that Brahms had composed himself could already be heard in the Bremen ‘premiere’ but was just attached to the score. In the score of the first complete edition of Brahms’ works (1927 by Eusebius Mandyczewski), however, the organ part was integrated into the notation. Brahms’ personal copy of the score has the instruction to specifically highlight the contrabassoon part. This was put into practice in concerts in Vienna that Brahms conducted himself. Both contrabassoon and organ definitely featured in the performances at the Großer Musikvereinssaal on 28 February 1875, at the Vienna Hofoper on 2 November 1879 and most probably also in the concert repeated on 3 November 1879.
In most of the movements-and specifically almost throughout movement I-it is essential that the pedal of the organ is used. The sometimes subtly notated chordal sections intensify the recurring passages and are thus (for example in movement II in connection with the words ‘For all flesh it is like grass’) strictly word-related. The fulltoned sound of the organ is also given a vital role in the colla parte accompaniment of the fugue in movement III (‘The righteous’ souls are in God’s hand …’); in movement V the organ remains completely silent. Apart from using the ‘king of instruments’ for intensifying the tone colours of the bass register, Brahms generally uses this instrument for cadenzas and the finale, which creates a ‘sacred aura’ and might therefore have been particularly important for Brahms.
Also the contrabassoon (not featuring in movements IV and V) enormously contributes to intensifying the tone colours of the deep sound register. The fact that organ and contrabassoon enrich the instrumental setting and thus the expressiveness of the work’s tonal dimension is certainly an argument for not leaving out these two instruments.” (Naxos)
Thank you for your comments and suggestion. I attended a performance in Carnegie Hall of the new critical edition of the German Requiem, and I also have your new recording. I have to confess that the slow tempos alarm me a bit, but we shall see how well the performance sustains them. The proof is in the listening!
What do you think of Suzuki and the bach collegium japan and their interpretations? I really like their magnificat, Christmas oratorio - it was the first version of the work that I heard - and the st. Matthew passion, their first recording. When I look for period instruments in bach, I first of all think Suzuki.
And of course thank you for the wonderful discussion and recommendations. Haven't heard most of them yet, I will try and correct that soon.
Suzuki is usually excellent.
Dear David, wonderful video as always. I do not know if I am am crazy but I hear a similar atmosphere between the beginning of the St John's Passion and the beginning of Petterson's Symphony 8. Has someone felt the same?
I hear exactly what you mean--that gaunt, scary gloom carried on a persistent string ostinato. I wouldn't allege that Pettersson was influenced ini any way, but the similarity is striking,
I do listen to these regularly (the Christmas Oratorio and the Passions are seasonal music for me). So this is one where the one conductor per piece is particularly difficult. I agree on Jacobs for the Oratorio, but I also listen to his St. Matthew most often. When I don't, I again agree with Netherland BS is my second choice, and perhaps my first choice for the Mass. Which is to say, I like Akademie für Alte Musik just a little better than Netherland BS for all of these pieces. I have yet to listen to Akademie für Alte Musik's St. John.
Dunedin Consort adds their own little twists, like recording the St. John as a service. BTW, I agree that the opening of the St. John may be the most amazing of Bach's compositions--I always thought it could have been composed in the 20th century.
Looking forward to more The 16 and Handel. Why hasn't everyone recorded Ariodante?
I will definitely do a talk on Ariodante--what a fabulous piece that is!
Harnoncourt's 1973 Christmas Oratorio with Concentus Musicus is very worthy but has something that bugs me: as a compulsive meta-tagger, there's no credit for the soprano soloist except "Soloist of the Vienna Boys Choir". Why would they not credit the kid by name? We get names for all the other soloists.
David, what's your favorite version of the CPE Bach Magnificat?
Probably the one on Harmonia Mundi.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Thank you!
I really appreciate that there's at least one music critic who tells people that it's OK to not like some of Bach's works. I like the Christmas Oratorio and the Magnificat myself, but I don't really care for the passions (if you exclude the wonderful choruses) and I think the b Minor mass has the best material right at the start and gets duller as it goes on (Crucifixus excluded).
I am not your friend!