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Another question how do you ensure your bike dosent move around when you cannot set it to park without the clutch on a slope really sloping roads I mean gears
@@tanmaypanadi1414 A parking brake. Zero uses a simple but inelegant piece of plastic that keeps the front brake lever clamped down. Or a more expensive kit to add a parking brake to the handlebars. Other automatic bikes like the Aprilia Mana have a lever that engages the parking brake.
It's simple, there is one thing holding back electric (motorcycles and cars), and it's not sound, it's not shifting, it's not "soul", and it's not performance. It's the fucking battery, that's it. Batteries are too damn heavy, they take too long to charge, they don't hold enough charge, and they heat up too quickly. Once that one component is fixed it's gonna be a slow death of gas engines. The average person doesn't drive a mustang, an STI, Corvette, lambo, Camero, etc. Most people drive civics, focuses, Corollas, f150s, etc. Gradually it will get phased out because normal people would love to have instant torque, low maintenance, and simplicity. They control the market, and like they said in the beginning, motorcycles follow cars. It's a matter of time.
@@threethrushes cost goes down with time, but if the technology ain't worth investing (or subsidizing) in then it won't matter the cost. It'll never get off the ground.
@Jack Stucki Exactly. Plus there is a finite amount of battery material that exists. Its possible that electric using litium isnt even sustainable because we will run out of lithium far before we run out of oil, and there may not even be enough in the earth to make an electric car for everyone. And also right, batteries are NOT enviro friendly.
@Jack Stucki And we already know that China has not been the most responsible when dealing with environmental issues so you can almost guarantee they will "F" this up too.
Speak for yourself, normie. Battery technology is fine for my uses. But Im not getting one because no clutch, no shifting, and no revs rising and dropping.
Electricity was invented in the 1800s. Electric Motors are over 150 years old for vehicles. We had Electric Coaches which got speeds up 25mph and rode for up to 75 miles per battery charge. Recharged in 10-15 minutes. Jay Leno has one of these old electric coaches. He loves it.
My point. Electric Vehicles are not a new concept. People need to stop treating it as a new concept. Battery recharge time, Speed, Range are the problems. Not the concept.
@@brianmccann666 yeah I agree Brian, I know it's not a new invention but it is a new progression for electric bikes. I like that they are pushing to have some competition in the market but for at least another 10 years minimum no one is going to replace there fuel burners for electricity and be 100% sure they made the right choice. I'm gearing up to go out on a ride today now and I know my bike will be able to go as far as I can afford to take it, no distractions of oh how far can I go, oh I better slow down on this lovely stretch of road because I'll save some range. Just gas up with some motion lotion and keep on riding.
Saying that combustion engines are a 130yr old technology is a cop out. Engine manufacturing has come a long way in the last 30 years thanks to metallurgy (see Yamaha 5 valve technology). We are only now on the cusp of motorcycle technology that cars have had for 20+ years. This isn't a good time for eletric motorcycles to be introduced because motorcycle technology is increasing so drastically.
My Zero is in the shop right now. Been in there for 3 weeks. The dealership just picked up the brand and they are waiting on a diagnostic tool to be able to analyze it. They also only have one tech qualified to work on it. For the short term support is the biggest issue electric motorcycles face. The dealer network for these machines is sparse, and manufacturer support is lacking. Might be great if you live in CA; everywhere else I'd only recommend one as a second or third bike.
As soon as someone perfects a slow discharge capacitor its game over, batteries are ancient tech too guys, capacitors charge in an instant and hold incredible amounts of voltage in a small package,
I think the best statements made during this video was where does the electricity come from to charge these things. The facts as more and more electric vehicle hit the road the infrastructure to produce the electricity to charge will need to increase. The net effect could be more pollution over all. Look at the nightmare we call ethanal and the impact it is having on the cost of other items such as food and fuel for fo no net gains.
@@Hoggdoc1946 I think even more telling is the total lack of infrastructure available to handle the extra current draw(amp load) to charge the theoretical massive future fleet of electric vehicles. Imagine a parking lot with 600,000 amps worth of current draw hardware...
As someone that works in the EV moto industry, thank you! This was probably the most intelligent and informed discussion I have heard about the future of EV. 3 moto dudes with contrasting opinions chopping it up.
In 5 years, Tesla brought battery prices from $250/kWh to almost $100/kWh. This will continue as the world is looking for the next great battery. This will help laptops, smartphones, etc
Yes but they're still more expensive and less reliable than a regular car. Not to mention if you ever need to go someplace more than 50 miles away your up shit creek. Better ride the bus in that case lmao. Tell everyone on the bus how you drive a Tesla rofl
Environmentally speaking, you didn’t go into the impact of digging up/harvesting lithium for the batteries or the waste generated from building them. It shouldn’t be understated.
And the fact that charging is powered by pollution by way of burning fossil fuels. We don't have enough power during summer heatwaves so how can we support that and all electric vehicles.
TheImtoomuch, we can build more solar and/or wind farms. Nuclear power, when well maintained, is a comparatively super clean and efficient way to generate huge amounts of power. I think the increased use of electricity (if we replaced all ic and diesel vehicles with electric) would still generate less emissions than the vehicles they replace. The big problem in my mind goes to my original statement. The other pollutants generated, lands destroyed, and resources depleted in the process of switching to electric transportation. Is all that other negative environmental impact worth it to reduce emissions? What happens if we run out of lithium and can’t find a suitable replacement? Do we reconvert to fossil fuels? The big buzz is climate change, CO2, but we can’t forget other issues. If we’re going to do better let’s do it the best we can and consider and factor every issue possible. I’m not down with destroying the ground and the water and the plants and the animals just to save the sky.
@@thinkingoutloud9126 Agreed I mean as of last year America only mines about 2% of the worlds lithium (www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-minerals-lithium/u-s-electric-car-sector-wary-of-china-seeks-more-domestic-lithium-idUSKBN1J82HS) and mining Lithium can be hazardous just like every thing else we got (www.wired.co.uk/article/lithium-batteries-environment-impact) SO the real question which Joe touched upon is why are not doing all this mining in space? I mean mine alkali and stuff in space, build giant solar panels and transport to earth( and beyond). Biggest problem with the climate is us so we should spread out a bit more.
I went from a Duc Monster to a 2017 Zero S, I'm tellin' you, I do NOT miss valve jobs, oil leaks, buying gas, and random shit breaking down all the time. 2 years now and its been reliable AF and a 5 yr unlimited mileage warranty on the battery. Looking forward to getting an SR/F next time around.
Range is a bigger factor. You can use an electric bike around town or on commutes but it's not really suitable for touring, and as someone who covers a lot of miles on long trips, having a fast charger (say one hour till full charge) and longer range (say 400-500 km) can be a game changer, since I have nothing against going electric otherwise.
@@BassOutcast I think you are on the money there. I can deal with a high price, but you can't have both a massive hit on range, AND a recharge time that almost needs you to check into a hotel to cover. If they can fix those two elements, I'd be interested in taking it for a longer ride.
@mld I'd argue weight doesn't matter since that is just how the bike is designed. Moreso I would argue it as 1) recharge time (not taking 1 hour for 95% charge), 2) infrastructure across the country as well as within urban areas and 3) price price price...fuck HD and their $30k prototype.
You mentioned that cars came out before gas stations so people had to carry gas...I think that you forgot to add that horses and wagons were very commen in rural areas well into the 20th century. General Patton was a Calvary officer. People forget that horses and engines worked side by side for a long time before people gave up their horses.
Exactly the us Forces were the only forces in WW2 that were fully mechanized. all the other armies, still relied on infantry to walk, and horses to tow stuff,
@Liberty Tree we used some pack mules while I was Afghanistan in 06 but not on a major level. My point really was that old tech and new tech have a very long overlap and it's not like one ends and the other begins. My dad grew up on a farm in Iowa with an outhouse and no electricity (they did get electricity when he was a kid) in the late 40s and early 50s. Another example is when you drive across America you still run into some areas where mobile phone or Internet aren't there.
My first bike is a Zero SR. I think Spurge comparing a DCT to electric drive is false. On the DCT you're still dealing with the limitations of the motor, you're still dealing with set gear ratios, so it makes sense it's not giving you the control that you need. On a proper electric drivetrain you have very precise direct control from 0 all the way to 100mph and there's nothing you can't access with the throttle. Its' similar on the outside but it's not the same thing. As someone who rides a direct drive bike but ride a manual, I really think electric is better. From gear ratios being constraining to losing power between each shift as you pull in the clutch, gears just don't give you the same control and power that a good electric drivetrain gives. I think most of the arguments about gears being better honestly come from a place of nostalgia and thinking/pretending that an electric motor has the same limitations as a gas motor. If electric motorcycles can give really good variable regen braking (Zero is lacking here) then it would really step up the game in terms of control. As far as I'm concerned, cost/range/recharge time are the only things stopping electric from being the norm, long term. And we're getting closer every year.
Very much appreciate the "real" discussion here. Dissenting viewpoints create dialog and thought about issues. I thought I knew where I stood on electric bikes, and other than the lack of infrastructure issue, I am now rethinking a few points. Thanks, jerks. :)
So much to say, but I'll try to narrow it to one point, maintenance/mods. Though the population of electric motorcycle owners today is small and many of them bought their bikes for environmentally sensitive commuting there already exists a community of people who modify and hotrod electric bikes. Changing drive ratios can provide harder acceleration or longer range. Modifying aerodynamics can improve range and top speed. On-board chargers can be changed out for quicker charging time. Different replacement batteries can be assembled. Finally, the motor controller can be reprogrammed similarly to how a gas bike can be tuned on a dyno. None of this is easy. There are few bolt-on mods today. That means you actually have to know what you are doing and it is easy to get into trouble making mods you don't fully understand. That's fine. It just means the American hotrod/tuner/customizer tradition is alive and well. And of course there are those who build their own electric bikes, often converted from gas bikes. ElectricMotorcycleForum dot Com is one place to look to learn more. Other quick hits: Electric bikes are an infant industry with specialized uses. They may never be good for touring. A Panigale V-4 or 2-stroke dirt bike would not be my first choice for touring either. Quit looking for some non-existent one-size-fits-all dream. That's a cop-out. Fossil fuel power plants produce and transmit electricity very efficiently. Electric motors use electricity very efficiently, over 90%. Every step in making, delivering, and burning gasoline in an engine has inefficiencies and pollution. Gas engines at best use 30% of the energy in gasoline. With most it is barely 20%. There is much bad information out there but from an engineering standpoint there is no question. As renewable generation grows this becomes even more obvious. Now get yer butts up off the sofa and go test ride a Zero SR/F. It will blow your mind. There is a global waiting list.
I live in Brooklyn and I have a 30-minute commute on my Super Tenere. Ten minutes of that is suiting up and pulling the bike out of the neighbor's gated driveway. The Revel electric scooter share just expanded to my area, and even if I have to walk a couple of blocks to the nearest scooter and stay off the Parkway it's significantly faster than riding my own bike. It's also easy, nearly silent, fits into smaller spaces, and I don't need to worry about parking tickets at work. If I used my own bike mainly for commuting I would surely be shopping for an e-motorcycle right now. If I were going to own two bikes I think I'd keep the ST for trips out of town and add an e-motorcycle for commuting.
I ride a Kawasaki whenever I can (including work). I work in the hybrid department of one of the Detroit Big 3, and I absolutely love this episode! People speaking about electric motorcycles seriously. I have my own thoughts, but I’m so glad to have these guys look at all the standpoints.
Much as I like traditional bikes-they'll be around forever-electric bikes are the way of the future. And I bet they'll rapidly improve and get cheaper. Though they make for different experiences.
Really? having to wait hours on hours for the electric thing to charge so that you can get a dismal 80 mile range is the future? I kind of feel like having unlimited range and being able to fill and go literally as far as your heart desires is actually the more advanced mode of transporting yourself. Electric is actually going backwards.
@@thatguycalledart6270 i don't think you are going to advance it. And assuming some mystery scientist will do it for you is an error. You dont know the limit of how much things can advance. Maybe its the peak right now. You arent in a position to say.
Paul Kojack even so. These bikes aren’t designed for long distance. Hence you don’t see a touring electric bike. 80 miles in a day is more than enough for city riding. I don’t like them but that doesn’t mean I can be as obtuse as you are being regarding the utility of the bikes. In an increasingly urbanised world, individuals need to drive cross country less and less. Secondly technology always advances. battery technology has been advancing for decades.
Thank you guys! Great video. Excellent observations. I’m considering electric for my short commute. BTW noise pollution is not only a problem on the trail but anBIG problem in urban environments.
My god man, we are still wearing pants! Pants! They were invented like thousands of years ago! It just blows my mind. That wasn't much of an argument against internal combustion engines.
Thats everyones things now "its the current year therefore this thing is outdated because i say so". Most people just want to sound like they are smart and progressive and 'with the times'. They don't even realize the importance of the ice engine and the fact that it alone has made the modern world what it is today. It almost irks me at the disrespect. Id rather knock down the pyramids than get rid of the ice engine.
I've got a Zero SR. The two biggest hurdles going forward is #1 - cost and #2 lithium ion batteries. In the next few years expect solid state batteries to start appearing (probably in cars first). That will be the turning point.
You get an electric motorcycle that can go 100mph with 150 mile range for under $4k it will sell. I'd buy one. I still think the cost component is the highest barrier.
Alex Wilson Pottery meh there are some cheaper 250s. Just look at CSC bikes they meet those requirements. But you’re right some of that is hard to achieve with cheaper ICE bikes but the technology is different with electrics and it doesn’t take nearly as much power to get up to speed. Very interesting problem to solve but I still say price is the current barrier.
mcgaurya000 Oh ! I didn’t know it was “easy” You just made some contradictory statement support with nothing more than your opinion. Which I’m sure is based on years upon years of research. What a world we live in graced by your wisdom.
khmaiaznboi89. Electric cars/carriages were developed on the 1830s with rechargeable battery carriages in the 1840s. First motorized truck/tractor (car) powered by steam for roads was the 1780s or 90s. So motorcars and bikes went: Steam first, then a half century later electric, then a half century later internal combustion/otto cycles. Vehicles went the same way in the market: Steam was the best seller in the 1890s Then Electric around 1900 Then internal combustion by 1915-20 Steam was useless to the common man. You needed a stable of men and chauffeurs to make them work amd clean them up when finished. Electric was barely available outside large cities in 1900, and those cars kept getting more and more expensive as they developed, yet they were useless outside the big city. ICE with an electric starter and modern clutch transmission solved both those problems, and a Model T was just a few hundred dollars.
We love our petrol and gas Motos way too much. As of now we are already able to manufacture our own petroleum products, gas will not be gone in any of our lifetimes. As for the younger generation it will be to their judgment. One thing is certain, electric bikes have to reduce the cost and increase the range.
After a couple of days, you don't miss shifting on the Zero. I think it's that motorcycling is involved enough without shifting. Also Spurge, you don't need the shifting to get the bike to do the right thing, you're always in the right gear and roll off regen handles the "downshift."
One thing you guys did not mention is solar power. I have solar panels on my house and produce more than my yearly consumption. So if I got an electric motorcycle it would be very green. What keeps me from switching is price, range and weight. Keep up the awesome content. Loving it! Thank you.
For me it’s the range that’s the issue. We don’t yet have the infastructure in Canada to go long and have a quick charge on the way, especially if you’re out in the boonies.
I like clutch. Keeps things similar to the petrol bike. Keeping rpms low increases range. Increases the life too minimizing heat. You don't have to pull in the clutch at a traffic stop. Because the engine can afford to go to zero rpm.
Yes, no matter what people say about electric they are the future, they will be able to do things so much better than combustion engines an will easily do 500 miles on a full charge and take minutes to charge when perfected.
That's the only way to make it work...but it won't be in my lifetime....so in my case the whole question of electric bikes for touring is just plain moot.
@@KieoVamp There actually isn't enough lithium in the world to replace all gas vehicles with electric, we will have to wait for hydrogen combustion and fuel cell for actual progress.
32, electric is already very popular in places like Holland, Germany and Belgium, japan businesses have charging points so you can charge while at work not to mention nearly every new car is a hybrid. They will make enough batteries, as humans we will always find a way to evolve, combustion engines are old technology and will be fazed out by 2040 - 50
The best HS/LS yet! Things that need to happen, as Spurg and Jo said: range and re-charging time. The segment that has already started to move into electric in a huge way: electric bicycles. I live in Zurich in Switzerland, where the people have way too much money and the number of big, expensive electric bikes is astonishing. They are simply fantastic around European cities. The segment where it's sort of happening: electric scooters. Better range than e-bikes and arguably safer, too (due to bike safety laws applying). But Vespa and the Asians still have the ICE scooter market cornered, mainly due to price (Lemmy's point). I don't think battery technology is going to improve radically over the next decade or so, so what is really needed is the political will or the economic bonus in building infrastructure for electric vehicles. Look up Norway's almost complete charging station coverage to see how it can be done if money and will is there. But you'll still have to pry my KTM SMT from my cold dead hands 😂
On the highside Zito reveals he's jelly of Spurgeon's hair. On the low side Zito is also jelly of Lemmy's hair. This should be called "between two haircuts" (between two ferns joke).
This is a really good discussion about electric motorcycles, thank you for talking about this stuff instead of being biased and dismissive about the subject.
Materials needed to build batteries are mostly (if not ONLY) own by China and those rare elements do exist in a finite quantity. What will happen when needed quantities will drasticaly decrease ? Price will go up, of course, to a point where this will become what it already is : a luxurious (and unuseful) niche product... There is no reason for this debate to exist. Keep on with the good work ✌️
Absolutely - there's only so much cobalt and lithium on the planet. The demand for batteries will also grow exponentially as we come to rely more on renewable energy for electricity for our energy storage needs. Plus there's already competition for these metals in the manufacting sector, pharma sector, etc. Here's hoping something for a silver bullet to come along sooner rather than later!
Can’t beat the sound of a big bike accelerating and decelerating and shifting up and down through the twisties brings a grin to my face every time. The whine of an electric motor just doesn’t cut it and never will.
yes and no. charge time is important, but when you can´t do a 100 mile roadtrip through the forrest where you can´t recharge, its just no good. thats what i am saying. 120 mile range for dirtbikes, 250 mile range for standard bikes, fast loading fz07 price and they would sell like hotcakes
eberbacher007 250 mile range is pretty much impossible with current battery technology without at least doubling the battery size. Now one thing they could do with the live wire is add removable saddle bag type range extenders.
@@patriotbiker2594 well most bike rides with friends are arbout 150-250 miles with maybe a short cofee brake or something like that, but there you can´t recharge, especially not fast recharge
I personally love the mechanical involvement that comes along with riding. For me, shifting through the gears and feeling the heat and vibrations from the engine make riding a more visceral, enjoyable experience. However, these attributes also make motorcycling intimidating to many would-be riders. When I explained to a non-rider friend that each hand and each foot is responsible for a different function on my motorcycle, he was flabbergasted. The idea of learning and managing so much while riding was extremely intimidating to him. He also has zero mechanical inclinations, so even basic maintenance would be a nuisance to him. There are A LOT of people like my friend these days. Electric bikes requiring just a twist of the throttle and little maintenance might actually attract these folks who otherwise would never try motorcycling.
So I guess steam-power and nuke is out. Bummer! I will embrace electric bikes. BTW, I have a escooter and a fat ebike (bicycle) and they are both friggen amazing.
Thoughts on loud pipes save lives? Everybody hits the rev limiter when a car driver cuts them off or doesn't see them as a warning like hey I'm here. I guess you could still use the horn but with loud pipes at least they can hear you
There are relatively cheap Beginner electric bikes that go moderate speeds , I did a bunch of videos on mine and even though it's not that known I'd say it's a pretty good commuter
once they get a handle on the price, and range/charge time, electrics will not be the future, but the now. i built an ebike for a winter project, and i really like it. mine uses a combination of on board 36v batteries, and two 18v tool batteries. i can carry four charged batteries, and double my range. they swap out in seconds, and i have a 30 minute charger for them at home. i've been thinking i could mount one on board so that i could recharge on the go wherever there's an outlet. i think my next version will have regen braking feeding an ultra capacitor bank for quick charge, and discharge capabilities. it will be like a nitrous boost that refills at every stop sign. just twist the throttle, push the boost button, and hang on!
I am for and against transmission after being an Empulse owner. Electric motors DO have an efficient RPM range. That's why on the Empulse you have a green zone in the tachometer. The motor is most efficient in that RPM range. Electric motors do not rev to the moon. A lot of the powerful electric motorcycles they choose or build a motor that will operate in a speedzone they are spec'd for. I honestly think the Empulse has too many gears I think instead of 6 maybe 3 would have been fine. But one cool thing about having the gears you can adjust your regen by keeping the revs up. Much like an ICE if you want more engine braking you downshift, it works the same way on an electric motor. With a one speed direct drive you can't do that as your RPMs drop you loose regen. One motorcycle with lower power motors gears would make it run much more efficiency, you can choose the gear for the terrain you are riding on.
First of all, fucking *love* the highside / lowside format. A++, would watch again lol. Ok, electric bikes - Lem and Spurge hit the problem from both ends. IF an electric bike is going to command 20-30k, that bike has got to be 'enough' (both range and recharge rate) to be a person's only bike. IF the bike is going to have reduced range / recharge rate, then it has to be cheap enough to be a person's 2nd bike. For me, 150 miles + 30 minute recharge rate under $25k would be the 'minimum' starting point. The Livewire is close (140 miles, 40 minutes recharge, $30k) but it's not quite there. It can't replace my FXR, so I can't justify the purchase. The Zero SR/F is also close (161 miles, 60 minute recharge, $25k) - but still not quite there. AND as was mentioned, Alta had an amazing bike, and disappeared. Rumor has it that Zero only sold ~600 bikes last year. A 5 year warranty is useless if the company goes belly up - I'd pay more for HD, knowing that company is going to be around for a while still, and that warranty will MEAN something. If Harley came out and said "Oh, btw, we guarantee battery upgrades for Livewire over the coming years as a drop in replacement", THEN I could justify that $30k price. But... here we are. So close, but not quite there.
I'm not really all that excited for electric motorcycles. They're great for urban use, but I value being able to ride long distances. Given the issues with energy density and charge time, I don't think electric motorcycles are going to be suitable for that use case for at least a century. What I would love, though, is a plug-in hybrid motorcycle. It's a bit more complex, but it has a lot of advantages. For one, you can use grid power for short distances, which massively improves on cost and environmental impact, but you still have the combustion engine to recharge for long distances. Additionally, the hybrid approach is actually a really efficient way to use chemical fuels. Electric engines are much better for delivering power; They're not only more performant and have better response, but they're also highly and equally efficient at any level of power output. Additionally, using combustion engines for generation means you can always run them at optimal RPMs, increasing their fuel efficiency massively. Combine these and you have a system that's more powerful and more efficient than directly using the combustion engine; It's been the standard for marine propulsion for half a century, with excellent results. I haven't seen a whole lot of news for them yet, but combined with biofuels, I think they're the perfect solution for sustainable long-range personal transport, and I can't wait to see some come onto market.
The real problem is convincing people it's worth it. My honda nc700x gets 60 mpg, it's got 20,000 miles on it. Relatively no maintenance and cheaper than all electric bikes. So where is the savings. Every 5 years, a top end and valves are cheaper than a new $6000 battery. The "savings" on fuel are negligible. Still have to do tires, brakes. To convert me, I need it to be cheaper than current bikes.
The con nobody seemed to want to touch on is the environmental impact of the production of the batteries and what happens with them when they need to be replaced.
You reckon it's impossible to change your engine braking strength on a internal combustion engine bike? I guess you guys haven't ridden a modern superbike recently... you can change it literally with the press of a button.
Please discuss the environmental aspects of disposal of the lithium batteries at the end of life. The batteries can't be recycled, and the lithium never goes away. It leaches from the landfills into the water system. What is the environmental impact of lithium?
Bernd DasBrot, yes, but the lithium used in the batteries still has ample supply for production, so there’s little demand for *recycling* the batteries to reclaim the lithium therein for reuse.
as long as they offer both gas and electric that's cool...why does it have to be either or. it's like vegans...we're cool with them being vegan but they're always trying to convince us we should be vegan.
@R Parker, yes once we figure out how to have a sustainable energy source that does not require us to be burning copious amounts of fossil fuels to attain it. Also the electrical network across the board would need to be upgraded to account for all the vehicles that are charging, just something to think. about.
I have to confess to having had a really negative view of electric motorcycles ,till last summer when my young nephew who'd only been riding 2 or 3 years called to my house with his new Zero SR, he said "lets see how it does in a drag race against your bike" (my bike's a GSX-R 1000R) so we went up to a pretty deserted country road and he kicked my ass, no matter how many times we tried he left me for dead up to nearly 120mph when the gixxer would reel it in and overtake but realistically 0 to 120mph covers probably 95% of your every day biking, he lent me the Zero for the day a short time later and I loved that acceleration, what I didn't like was that in sport mode you could almost watch the battery life dropping like a stone and I found the silence of the bike slightly unnerving ,as did a few people who walked out onto the road in front of the bike but you'd soon get used to the lack of engine sound, at the minute the only thing that'd stop me buying one is the appalling battery range and also they're still a lot heavier than sports bikes.
Sometimes, it is interesting to look at things from a different perspective. Suppose we never developed the gasoline piston engine, and we were all driving around in Tesla-like vehicles with all their current limitations. Of course, we would have developed some work arounds to minimize the inconvenience of the limited distance and charging times like lots of superchargers and maybe easily replaceable batteries. Suppose someone came to us and said they just developed a gasoline piston engine that could go 400 miles between re-fueling and be re-fueled in 5 minutes. But ... it has 100 moving parts instead of basically one moving part in our electrical motors. Also, it requires a bunch of complicated stuff like a transmission, a carburetor or fuel injector, and a fuel pump. Plus, all these things also have many moving parts. Plus, you'll have to lug around a tank of highly flammable liquid which could even explode. Plus, this contraption is going to belch out clouds of toxic gasses that can literally kill you in minutes in a closed space. And, to add insult to injury, you are going to need a battery and electric motor to just to start this Rube Goldberg contraption. I think we would take a pass on the gasoline piston engine, and stay with the limitations of the electric motor and battery, and work on overcoming those limitations. YMMV.
Great discussion. New riders being attracted to motorcycling shouldn't be overlooked here. Yes, a lot of existing riders have endless gripes which you've documented. But I am a new rider - 44 years old, got my license two weeks ago. I'm also a cyclist and was attracted to motorcycling as a clean, fun way to get to work and quick trips around town. I want to go electric. Range is not an issue for me - 45 miles is fine. Top speed is not an issue either - I don't want to drive on the freeway. Ironically, I ended up going with a CSC SG250 since I wanted to learn how to ride and maintain a simpler UJM-styled bike for traveling overseas and bike touring while there. But my next bike (which I will buy a year from now) will be electric. So, I'm proof that electric bikes will attract new riders to the motorcycling community! 😊
you guys should look up efficiency of electric motors in comparison to combustion engines. Even with power out of a dirty coal plant they are better then every combustion engine. Then look up how much engere is used to refine crude oil into gas and this calculation get much worse. With electric motors you have the chance to get clean energy.
It's not really clean unless the power generation is clean. For that you need hydro, wind, solar, geothermal. And then, the infrastructure required for those takes energy to produce. Think metal mining, transportation, maintenance. It may be clean at the vehicle, but at every phase prior there is some pollution and/or environmental impact. So, bottom line, the Portlanders can offload their environmental impacts to Wyoming or eastern Oregon.
David Smith There power can be clean and that’s a huge difference in comparison. And battery production is getting cleaner and the need fore rare earths and stuff like cobalt is going down. This a a development that you can’t find in ce cars.
Devon Ellesse lmfaooo it always makes me laugh when people say shit like that. Motorcycle companies have copied technology forever, Honda has the capital they’ll just let the smaller companies do all the upfront work and then deviate from their designs slightly to make theirs better
@@thatguycalledart6270 tell it to ZERO - who is already manufacturing an electric bike harley davidson wont be able to catch next year with their first electric bike LIVEWIRE 😋😋😋
Never thought I'd be a Luddite on this but I personally love the sounds and quirks and presence of the the engine... electric bikes don't really have that same with cars. They are better machines but they feel the part and are harder to trick into personifying or some sense of person-hood and whathaveyou.
with the dyno graphs ive seen of tesla cars the peak torque seems to fall off at around 40-45mph. i think that gear boxes have a role to play in e vehicles but in a slightly different way than you would expect. i expect to see 2 and 3 speed gear boxes to keep the bike in peak torque.
There's no advantage to a gearbox. Revving the motor does no harm, unlike petrol. At the point the motor starts to lose torque it's making maximum power and it holds close to maximum power right to the rev limit. If you want more torque then just increase the size of the motor. It's less increase than adding a gearbox.
Simple answer is no. Why? What is the first mod most people do? Exhaust. Why is that? People love the visceral feeling, sounds and smells of motorcycling. There is a place for them for sure but they won’t eliminate the real feels. Add to that the silence and you get the “loud pipes save lives” people holding their ground.
I have an 2015 KTM Freeride E and have 10.100 km on the odometer so far. I’m using it for commuting to / from work and shorter trips from home. I also have a 690 Duke which I also use for commuting and longer trips. In my view electric bikes are the future and once charging times and range are at acceptable levels many will jump to electric bikes. Emissions regulations will force the change in the end.
You have a CSC motorcycle. You do know they also sell an inexpensive Grom-sized electric bike as well? Why not order up your own cheap electric bike and let us know what you think of it? I agree off road is the best market for electric. How many areas are off limits due to noise issues? What excuse can they use if they allow mountain bikes? An electric bike just uses a battery for propulsion rather than foot power. Banning them would be a lot more difficult if the noise goes away.
I'd love to buy a secondary electric bike for computing around city but cost is the biggest hurdle imo cause a range of 150-200 km is good enough for my usage.
I think a gearbox would be a good thing on an electric bike, it would make your distance go way up. The biggest Achilles heel of electric motors is that the faster you spin them the less distance they can cover, if you could gain speed while running your motor at a low rpm, your distance coverage would be much greater and the fact that its an electric motor, there would not be a torque curve like with a gas engine with the changing of the ratios.
Ok I’m lucky enough to have 3 bikes. I have an Africa Twin for mile crunching adventure A Honda Rebel 500 for backroad fun and a Zero FXS for commuting and getting around town. What I’ve found is that when I open the garage in the morning, unless I have no other choice, I take the Zero. It’s lighter, faster and just less hassle. It handles brilliantly and it’s plenty fast for me. The range is a real world 50 miles and re-charge is about 2 hours with the incredible clunky fast charger that I keep in a tail bag But it’s just soooo easy that I enjoy every journey like it was that first time you rode out on your own. It feels special. If range and re-charge were sorted The Rebel (insert mid range bike) would go. I’d love to go touring on it if range allowed. Price wise it cost me 9K which is more than the Rebel and less than the Africa Twin. The BIG problem everyone forgets about when they talk about this stuff is that they are hellish to insure. In the U.K. I have 1 broker that will insure it and it costs more than the Africa Twin. Simply because there isn’t enough actuarial data on them for re-insurers to assess the risk. The way I think this has to go is for the manufacturers to agree a common standard for the battery and then you have a corner of your Gas Station where (for a fee) you exchange your depleted battery for a freshly charged one. Otherwise you are always going to have this issue . It’s not like you can carry a rotopax full of electricity on the side panniers just in case. Or jump on the back of your mates bike with a empty battery and go fill it somewhere. But if you ignore the problems of range and recharge and are young enough that you don’t get all misty eyed at the thought of adjusting your carburettor needle on a damp foggy morning using tools you made from things you dug out of the ground, then why would you ride anything else? They are just hassle. Sometimes I want that hassle (it’s half the fun of biking as a hobby) but when you have actual shit to do... electric all the way.
Agreed with the price comment. I'm OK with a 250 mile range, just can't justify paying 3x as much for the same functionality. I love a silent bike - any bike I buy has to A) be reasonably quiet, the quieter the better, and B) still have emissions control in place. > 50% of why I ride is for ecological reasons - with a 50 mile daily commute it's good to have something that gets 75 MPG.
just some reasons that I'm interested, but not going to bay a e-bike 200 miles, less then 30 mins re-charge time, or a battery change stations just as changing batteries on a cellphone 10 years ago, which happening in Taiwan, free battery change and re-charge stations just like gas stands. My CB400 gives me 240 kilometers ride and less then 10 mins to refuel (Full as 17L) any reasons for me to give away my 12 years old super four and have a 20000 dollar bike but not better then that?
Not having the sound of exhaust and motors takes away an element from motorcycling. When I hear a nice sounding exhaust system, my head turns. My head has never turned to listen to a tesla.
One of my biggest issues now trying to buy a petrol power Motorcycle for the first time is that I don't want a bike that sounds like an angry bumblebee, I kinda want some rolling thunder not much but just enough that people in cars, trucks and rigs can hear me coming. I mean people already don't really see riders sometimes so I think the sound is a good component to have for rider visibility.
I think you guys started to hit on a topic that will have the most impact but then abandoned it and went another direction and that's the service industry and aftermarket industry. Most dealerships, if they're being honest, make most of their money in these two categories. It's not sales of new or used bikes that keeps the doors open. If/when electric motorcycles become the mainstream and if they're as efficient and maintenance free as proposed, who's going to be around to sell them? I know that's a long time down the road, but if we're not looking 50 years ahead we will kill an industry and a favorite pastime of millions of people. The second thought here is the visceral feeling of riding. The vibrations, smell, sound of riding a street bike. Most of us don't want to replace that with electric bikes that are silent. We want that loud exhaust. We want to feel the engine beneath us. That's all as much a part of riding as being on two wheels. Lastly, you would eliminate many parts of the country as viable riding destinations. How many country back roads or scenic highways or woods would become obsolete for riding because there is barely a gas station within a hundred miles, much less a charging station? I understand why the city commuter would be all over this and that's fine, but it's not for the mainstream motorcyclist.
EM's will have their place mainly for city commuters.But I doubt that they will ever replace traditional MC's If they didn't cost so much I would buy one just for running around the neighborhood, and to the grocery store.I do have a question, will the battery develope a memory ? Another question, how long will the battery last 2,4,6 years or more ?
If I could run the TAT on an electric bike, as well as go highway coast to coast, then I would be on board. Electric bikes are awesome, and easy to work on. The problem is that it's just not feasible as a replacement for my dino bike.
Imo, it's just a matter of time before the last IC engine motorcycle are manufactured. The Electric revolution is coming hard and fast. The only drawbacks(at this time) being the battery range and it's recharge time. As for as the sounds go, I predict some audio equipment to mimic the exhaust note based on the amount of throttle. It helps others on the road(to know a motoryclce is around) plus gives the rider another sensory reception of power at the wheel.
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Another question how do you ensure your bike dosent move around when you cannot set it to park without the clutch on a slope really sloping roads
I mean gears
RevZilla yay, sure will. good to listen on commutes to work.
tanmay panadi Leave it in gear, don't go to nuetral and keep front tire pointed toward curb?
@@tanmaypanadi1414 A parking brake. Zero uses a simple but inelegant piece of plastic that keeps the front brake lever clamped down. Or a more expensive kit to add a parking brake to the handlebars. Other automatic bikes like the Aprilia Mana have a lever that engages the parking brake.
caramelzappa Ooooh, good idea...I didn't even know that was a thing for motorcycles. Especially, of you live in a place like Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.
It's simple, there is one thing holding back electric (motorcycles and cars), and it's not sound, it's not shifting, it's not "soul", and it's not performance. It's the fucking battery, that's it. Batteries are too damn heavy, they take too long to charge, they don't hold enough charge, and they heat up too quickly.
Once that one component is fixed it's gonna be a slow death of gas engines. The average person doesn't drive a mustang, an STI, Corvette, lambo, Camero, etc. Most people drive civics, focuses, Corollas, f150s, etc. Gradually it will get phased out because normal people would love to have instant torque, low maintenance, and simplicity. They control the market, and like they said in the beginning, motorcycles follow cars. It's a matter of time.
Cost is holding back broad acceptance of electric bikes.
@@threethrushes cost goes down with time, but if the technology ain't worth investing (or subsidizing) in then it won't matter the cost. It'll never get off the ground.
@Jack Stucki Exactly. Plus there is a finite amount of battery material that exists. Its possible that electric using litium isnt even sustainable because we will run out of lithium far before we run out of oil, and there may not even be enough in the earth to make an electric car for everyone. And also right, batteries are NOT enviro friendly.
@Jack Stucki And we already know that China has not been the most responsible when dealing with environmental issues so you can almost guarantee they will "F" this up too.
Speak for yourself, normie. Battery technology is fine for my uses. But Im not getting one because no clutch, no shifting, and no revs rising and dropping.
Congrats on the weight loss Lemmy. Keep it up.
Avedgy dude I noticed that too... lolz we have been around ZLA for a while
That was something I thought was just in my head, that’s awesome though. Keep up the good work Lemmy!
Weight loss = Free horsepower, lol
Mad respect Lemmy, keep working!
Dude, it's 2019 and we're still using a technology developed in the Stone age - a wheel!
If it ain't broke...
Electricity was invented in the 1800s.
Electric Motors are over 150 years old for vehicles.
We had Electric Coaches which got speeds up 25mph and rode for up to 75 miles per battery charge. Recharged in 10-15 minutes. Jay Leno has one of these old electric coaches. He loves it.
My point. Electric Vehicles are not a new concept. People need to stop treating it as a new concept.
Battery recharge time, Speed, Range are the problems. Not the concept.
@@brianmccann666 yeah I agree Brian, I know it's not a new invention but it is a new progression for electric bikes. I like that they are pushing to have some competition in the market but for at least another 10 years minimum no one is going to replace there fuel burners for electricity and be 100% sure they made the right choice. I'm gearing up to go out on a ride today now and I know my bike will be able to go as far as I can afford to take it, no distractions of oh how far can I go, oh I better slow down on this lovely stretch of road because I'll save some range. Just gas up with some motion lotion and keep on riding.
Saying that combustion engines are a 130yr old technology is a cop out. Engine manufacturing has come a long way in the last 30 years thanks to metallurgy (see Yamaha 5 valve technology). We are only now on the cusp of motorcycle technology that cars have had for 20+ years. This isn't a good time for eletric motorcycles to be introduced because motorcycle technology is increasing so drastically.
I dunno whats on your bike, but I don't ride on wheels. I ride on *_TIRES_*
One of man's first inventions. The bias ply tire.
My Zero is in the shop right now. Been in there for 3 weeks. The dealership just picked up the brand and they are waiting on a diagnostic tool to be able to analyze it. They also only have one tech qualified to work on it. For the short term support is the biggest issue electric motorcycles face. The dealer network for these machines is sparse, and manufacturer support is lacking. Might be great if you live in CA; everywhere else I'd only recommend one as a second or third bike.
As soon as someone perfects a slow discharge capacitor its game over, batteries are ancient tech too guys, capacitors charge in an instant and hold incredible amounts of voltage in a small package,
The caps need a lot of improvement before they don't blow up as you try to keep them from discharging
Yeah , if your around any type of sytsem with high capacitance, your also around a system with a lot of cooling..
No, voltage doesn't really matter, it can help with efficiency, a little, what really matters is power and batteries are way better at storing power.
I think the best statements made during this video was where does the electricity come from to charge these things. The facts as more and more electric vehicle hit the road the infrastructure to produce the electricity to charge will need to increase. The net effect could be more pollution over all. Look at the nightmare we call ethanal and the impact it is having on the cost of other items such as food and fuel for fo no net gains.
@@Hoggdoc1946 I think even more telling is the total lack of infrastructure available to handle the extra current draw(amp load) to charge the theoretical massive future fleet of electric vehicles. Imagine a parking lot with 600,000 amps worth of current draw hardware...
As someone that works in the EV moto industry, thank you! This was probably the most intelligent and informed discussion I have heard about the future of EV. 3 moto dudes with contrasting opinions chopping it up.
In 5 years, Tesla brought battery prices from $250/kWh to almost $100/kWh. This will continue as the world is looking for the next great battery. This will help laptops, smartphones, etc
Yes but they're still more expensive and less reliable than a regular car. Not to mention if you ever need to go someplace more than 50 miles away your up shit creek. Better ride the bus in that case lmao. Tell everyone on the bus how you drive a Tesla rofl
Tesla sells garbage and Elon Musk is mentally unstable.
Environmentally speaking, you didn’t go into the impact of digging up/harvesting lithium for the batteries or the waste generated from building them. It shouldn’t be understated.
Not to mention the impact of having to dispose of spent battery packs but the 100s of thousands.
And the fact that charging is powered by pollution by way of burning fossil fuels. We don't have enough power during summer heatwaves so how can we support that and all electric vehicles.
TheImtoomuch, we can build more solar and/or wind farms. Nuclear power, when well maintained, is a comparatively super clean and efficient way to generate huge amounts of power. I think the increased use of electricity (if we replaced all ic and diesel vehicles with electric) would still generate less emissions than the vehicles they replace. The big problem in my mind goes to my original statement. The other pollutants generated, lands destroyed, and resources depleted in the process of switching to electric transportation. Is all that other negative environmental impact worth it to reduce emissions? What happens if we run out of lithium and can’t find a suitable replacement? Do we reconvert to fossil fuels? The big buzz is climate change, CO2, but we can’t forget other issues. If we’re going to do better let’s do it the best we can and consider and factor every issue possible. I’m not down with destroying the ground and the water and the plants and the animals just to save the sky.
@@thinkingoutloud9126 Agreed I mean as of last year America only mines about 2% of the worlds lithium (www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-minerals-lithium/u-s-electric-car-sector-wary-of-china-seeks-more-domestic-lithium-idUSKBN1J82HS) and mining Lithium can be hazardous just like every thing else we got (www.wired.co.uk/article/lithium-batteries-environment-impact) SO the real question which Joe touched upon is why are not doing all this mining in space? I mean mine alkali and stuff in space, build giant solar panels and transport to earth( and beyond). Biggest problem with the climate is us so we should spread out a bit more.
I went from a Duc Monster to a 2017 Zero S, I'm tellin' you, I do NOT miss valve jobs, oil leaks, buying gas, and random shit breaking down all the time. 2 years now and its been reliable AF and a 5 yr unlimited mileage warranty on the battery. Looking forward to getting an SR/F next time around.
For electric to become more popular is PRICE!
And range, and recharge stations...
Range is a bigger factor. You can use an electric bike around town or on commutes but it's not really suitable for touring, and as someone who covers a lot of miles on long trips, having a fast charger (say one hour till full charge) and longer range (say 400-500 km) can be a game changer, since I have nothing against going electric otherwise.
@@BassOutcast I think you are on the money there. I can deal with a high price, but you can't have both a massive hit on range, AND a recharge time that almost needs you to check into a hotel to cover. If they can fix those two elements, I'd be interested in taking it for a longer ride.
@mld I'd argue weight doesn't matter since that is just how the bike is designed. Moreso I would argue it as 1) recharge time (not taking 1 hour for 95% charge), 2) infrastructure across the country as well as within urban areas and 3) price price price...fuck HD and their $30k prototype.
Price is a proxy for value, nothing more.
You mentioned that cars came out before gas stations so people had to carry gas...I think that you forgot to add that horses and wagons were very commen in rural areas well into the 20th century. General Patton was a Calvary officer. People forget that horses and engines worked side by side for a long time before people gave up their horses.
An excellent point. The history of innovation is fascinating.
Exactly
the us Forces were the only forces in WW2 that were fully mechanized.
all the other armies, still relied on infantry to walk, and horses to tow stuff,
@Liberty Tree we used some pack mules while I was Afghanistan in 06 but not on a major level. My point really was that old tech and new tech have a very long overlap and it's not like one ends and the other begins. My dad grew up on a farm in Iowa with an outhouse and no electricity (they did get electricity when he was a kid) in the late 40s and early 50s.
Another example is when you drive across America you still run into some areas where mobile phone or Internet aren't there.
My first bike is a Zero SR.
I think Spurge comparing a DCT to electric drive is false. On the DCT you're still dealing with the limitations of the motor, you're still dealing with set gear ratios, so it makes sense it's not giving you the control that you need. On a proper electric drivetrain you have very precise direct control from 0 all the way to 100mph and there's nothing you can't access with the throttle. Its' similar on the outside but it's not the same thing.
As someone who rides a direct drive bike but ride a manual, I really think electric is better. From gear ratios being constraining to losing power between each shift as you pull in the clutch, gears just don't give you the same control and power that a good electric drivetrain gives. I think most of the arguments about gears being better honestly come from a place of nostalgia and thinking/pretending that an electric motor has the same limitations as a gas motor.
If electric motorcycles can give really good variable regen braking (Zero is lacking here) then it would really step up the game in terms of control.
As far as I'm concerned, cost/range/recharge time are the only things stopping electric from being the norm, long term. And we're getting closer every year.
Very much appreciate the "real" discussion here. Dissenting viewpoints create dialog and thought about issues. I thought I knew where I stood on electric bikes, and other than the lack of infrastructure issue, I am now rethinking a few points. Thanks, jerks. :)
So much to say, but I'll try to narrow it to one point, maintenance/mods.
Though the population of electric motorcycle owners today is small and many of them bought their bikes for environmentally sensitive commuting there already exists a community of people who modify and hotrod electric bikes. Changing drive ratios can provide harder acceleration or longer range. Modifying aerodynamics can improve range and top speed. On-board chargers can be changed out for quicker charging time. Different replacement batteries can be assembled. Finally, the motor controller can be reprogrammed similarly to how a gas bike can be tuned on a dyno.
None of this is easy. There are few bolt-on mods today. That means you actually have to know what you are doing and it is easy to get into trouble making mods you don't fully understand. That's fine. It just means the American hotrod/tuner/customizer tradition is alive and well. And of course there are those who build their own electric bikes, often converted from gas bikes. ElectricMotorcycleForum dot Com is one place to look to learn more.
Other quick hits: Electric bikes are an infant industry with specialized uses. They may never be good for touring. A Panigale V-4 or 2-stroke dirt bike would not be my first choice for touring either. Quit looking for some non-existent one-size-fits-all dream. That's a cop-out.
Fossil fuel power plants produce and transmit electricity very efficiently. Electric motors use electricity very efficiently, over 90%. Every step in making, delivering, and burning gasoline in an engine has inefficiencies and pollution. Gas engines at best use 30% of the energy in gasoline. With most it is barely 20%. There is much bad information out there but from an engineering standpoint there is no question. As renewable generation grows this becomes even more obvious.
Now get yer butts up off the sofa and go test ride a Zero SR/F. It will blow your mind. There is a global waiting list.
I live in Brooklyn and I have a 30-minute commute on my Super Tenere. Ten minutes of that is suiting up and pulling the bike out of the neighbor's gated driveway. The Revel electric scooter share just expanded to my area, and even if I have to walk a couple of blocks to the nearest scooter and stay off the Parkway it's significantly faster than riding my own bike. It's also easy, nearly silent, fits into smaller spaces, and I don't need to worry about parking tickets at work.
If I used my own bike mainly for commuting I would surely be shopping for an e-motorcycle right now. If I were going to own two bikes I think I'd keep the ST for trips out of town and add an e-motorcycle for commuting.
the ground doesn´´t care whether you crash into it at 40mph, falling of a gas driven vehicle or an electric one,
so you still need to suit up
I ride a Kawasaki whenever I can (including work). I work in the hybrid department of one of the Detroit Big 3, and I absolutely love this episode! People speaking about electric motorcycles seriously. I have my own thoughts, but I’m so glad to have these guys look at all the standpoints.
Much as I like traditional bikes-they'll be around forever-electric bikes are the way of the future. And I bet they'll rapidly improve and get cheaper. Though they make for different experiences.
Whatever the future is it’s the opposite of what we expect. So I’ll wait and see
Really? having to wait hours on hours for the electric thing to charge so that you can get a dismal 80 mile range is the future? I kind of feel like having unlimited range and being able to fill and go literally as far as your heart desires is actually the more advanced mode of transporting yourself. Electric is actually going backwards.
Paul Kojack lmao man you think the technology won’t advance
@@thatguycalledart6270 i don't think you are going to advance it. And assuming some mystery scientist will do it for you is an error. You dont know the limit of how much things can advance. Maybe its the peak right now. You arent in a position to say.
Paul Kojack even so. These bikes aren’t designed for long distance. Hence you don’t see a touring electric bike. 80 miles in a day is more than enough for city riding. I don’t like them but that doesn’t mean I can be as obtuse as you are being regarding the utility of the bikes. In an increasingly urbanised world, individuals need to drive cross country less and less.
Secondly technology always advances. battery technology has been advancing for decades.
Lets all invest in every battery developer we can find and force them to find a better battery
Pretty cool that Hopper from Stranger Things hangs out on your Podcast.
Thank you guys! Great video. Excellent observations. I’m considering electric for my short commute. BTW noise pollution is not only a problem on the trail but anBIG problem in urban environments.
I think I would miss the traditional sound of the gas motor.
I thought I would too until I tried one
My god man, we are still wearing pants! Pants! They were invented like thousands of years ago! It just blows my mind.
That wasn't much of an argument against internal combustion engines.
Also, electric motorcycles have been around just as long as ICE motorcycles.
Yeah, that was pretty dumb. Can you believe we still use wood to build houses?
Thats everyones things now "its the current year therefore this thing is outdated because i say so". Most people just want to sound like they are smart and progressive and 'with the times'. They don't even realize the importance of the ice engine and the fact that it alone has made the modern world what it is today. It almost irks me at the disrespect. Id rather knock down the pyramids than get rid of the ice engine.
I've got a Zero SR. The two biggest hurdles going forward is #1 - cost and #2 lithium ion batteries. In the next few years expect solid state batteries to start appearing (probably in cars first). That will be the turning point.
What exactly is a solid state battery? Do you mean capacitor?
Don't hold your breath my friend.
You get an electric motorcycle that can go 100mph with 150 mile range for under $4k it will sell. I'd buy one. I still think the cost component is the highest barrier.
Dean Kelly, there isn't currently any 'ice' bike with that performance at that price new.
Alex Wilson Pottery meh there are some cheaper 250s. Just look at CSC bikes they meet those requirements. But you’re right some of that is hard to achieve with cheaper ICE bikes but the technology is different with electrics and it doesn’t take nearly as much power to get up to speed.
Very interesting problem to solve but I still say price is the current barrier.
You guys neglected to mention the issue of spent battery disposal and the possible pollution issues there. Unfortunately, TANSTAAFL
Batteries can easily be recycled and the vast majority of precious metals can be reused in new batteries.
mcgaurya000
Oh !
I didn’t know it was “easy”
You just made some contradictory statement support with nothing more than your opinion.
Which I’m sure is based on years upon years of research.
What a world we live in graced by your wisdom.
@@bobthebuilder372 that is not true, but you can keep thinking that while the child labor slave labor continues when mining for cobalt and lithium.
Why does no one talk about how toxic environmentally damaging Lithium batteries are?
Electric bicycles have been around since the 1890s. That's old technology.
khmaiaznboi89. Electric cars/carriages were developed on the 1830s with rechargeable battery carriages in the 1840s. First motorized truck/tractor (car) powered by steam for roads was the 1780s or 90s. So motorcars and bikes went:
Steam first, then a half century later electric, then a half century later internal combustion/otto cycles.
Vehicles went the same way in the market:
Steam was the best seller in the 1890s
Then Electric around 1900
Then internal combustion by 1915-20
Steam was useless to the common man. You needed a stable of men and chauffeurs to make them work amd clean them up when finished.
Electric was barely available outside large cities in 1900, and those cars kept getting more and more expensive as they developed, yet they were useless outside the big city.
ICE with an electric starter and modern clutch transmission solved both those problems, and a Model T was just a few hundred dollars.
True... but electric bicycles didn't really become reliable until the 1990's, they've only become affordable (£500) in recent years.
We love our petrol and gas Motos way too much. As of now we are already able to manufacture our own petroleum products, gas will not be gone in any of our lifetimes.
As for the younger generation it will be to their judgment.
One thing is certain, electric bikes have to reduce the cost and increase the range.
We love our horses and saddles way too much. As of now, we have an inexhaustible supply of horses, and they won't go anywhere in our lifetimes.
Very clever, thanks for the laugh.
Enjoy your horse and buggie, I prefer bridling internal combustion ponies.
Recharge stations, range (~250 mi), recharge time (
After a couple of days, you don't miss shifting on the Zero. I think it's that motorcycling is involved enough without shifting. Also Spurge, you don't need the shifting to get the bike to do the right thing, you're always in the right gear and roll off regen handles the "downshift."
would you consider doing a full length podcast, like an hour? These are great in audio form for my commute.
yeah, the half hour format is way too short and it always feels like they are deliberately cutting it short
One thing you guys did not mention is solar power. I have solar panels on my house and produce more than my yearly consumption. So if I got an electric motorcycle it would be very green. What keeps me from switching is price, range and weight. Keep up the awesome content. Loving it! Thank you.
For me it’s the range that’s the issue. We don’t yet have the infastructure in Canada to go long and have a quick charge on the way, especially if you’re out in the boonies.
I like clutch. Keeps things similar to the petrol bike. Keeping rpms low increases range. Increases the life too minimizing heat. You don't have to pull in the clutch at a traffic stop. Because the engine can afford to go to zero rpm.
Yes, no matter what people say about electric they are the future, they will be able to do things so much better than combustion engines an will easily do 500 miles on a full charge and take minutes to charge when perfected.
That's the only way to make it work...but it won't be in my lifetime....so in my case the whole question of electric bikes for touring is just plain moot.
In my life time it will be, in 20 years time you won't even be able to buy petrol or diesel cars as all will be electric, trust me.
@@KieoVamp There actually isn't enough lithium in the world to replace all gas vehicles with electric, we will have to wait for hydrogen combustion and fuel cell for actual progress.
Kieo how old are ?
32, electric is already very popular in places like Holland, Germany and Belgium, japan businesses have charging points so you can charge while at work not to mention nearly every new car is a hybrid. They will make enough batteries, as humans we will always find a way to evolve, combustion engines are old technology and will be fazed out by 2040 - 50
The best HS/LS yet! Things that need to happen, as Spurg and Jo said: range and re-charging time. The segment that has already started to move into electric in a huge way: electric bicycles. I live in Zurich in Switzerland, where the people have way too much money and the number of big, expensive electric bikes is astonishing. They are simply fantastic around European cities. The segment where it's sort of happening: electric scooters. Better range than e-bikes and arguably safer, too (due to bike safety laws applying). But Vespa and the Asians still have the ICE scooter market cornered, mainly due to price (Lemmy's point). I don't think battery technology is going to improve radically over the next decade or so, so what is really needed is the political will or the economic bonus in building infrastructure for electric vehicles. Look up Norway's almost complete charging station coverage to see how it can be done if money and will is there.
But you'll still have to pry my KTM SMT from my cold dead hands 😂
You guys are spot on. I love the content and forum. I look forward to every episode. It is like hanging with friends talking bikes in the garage.
On the highside Zito reveals he's jelly of Spurgeon's hair. On the low side Zito is also jelly of Lemmy's hair. This should be called "between two haircuts" (between two ferns joke).
This is a really good discussion about electric motorcycles, thank you for talking about this stuff instead of being biased and dismissive about the subject.
Materials needed to build batteries are mostly (if not ONLY) own by China and
those rare elements do exist in a finite quantity.
What will happen when needed quantities will drasticaly decrease ?
Price will go up, of course, to a point where this will become what it already is : a luxurious (and unuseful) niche product...
There is no reason for this debate to exist.
Keep on with the good work ✌️
Absolutely - there's only so much cobalt and lithium on the planet. The demand for batteries will also grow exponentially as we come to rely more on renewable energy for electricity for our energy storage needs. Plus there's already competition for these metals in the manufacting sector, pharma sector, etc. Here's hoping something for a silver bullet to come along sooner rather than later!
Can’t beat the sound of a big bike accelerating and decelerating and shifting up and down through the twisties brings a grin to my face every time. The whine of an electric motor just doesn’t cut it and never will.
Charge times are much more important then range. I would take a bike with 150 mile freeway range with a 10 min or less charge time.
yes and no.
charge time is important, but when you can´t do a 100 mile roadtrip through the forrest where you can´t recharge, its just no good.
thats what i am saying.
120 mile range for dirtbikes, 250 mile range for standard bikes,
fast loading
fz07 price
and they would sell like hotcakes
eberbacher007 250 mile range is pretty much impossible with current battery technology without at least doubling the battery size. Now one thing they could do with the live wire is add removable saddle bag type range extenders.
@@patriotbiker2594 well most bike rides with friends are arbout 150-250 miles with maybe a short cofee brake or something like that, but there you can´t recharge, especially not fast recharge
I personally love the mechanical involvement that comes along with riding. For me, shifting through the gears and feeling the heat and vibrations from the engine make riding a more visceral, enjoyable experience. However, these attributes also make motorcycling intimidating to many would-be riders. When I explained to a non-rider friend that each hand and each foot is responsible for a different function on my motorcycle, he was flabbergasted. The idea of learning and managing so much while riding was extremely intimidating to him. He also has zero mechanical inclinations, so even basic maintenance would be a nuisance to him. There are A LOT of people like my friend these days. Electric bikes requiring just a twist of the throttle and little maintenance might actually attract these folks who otherwise would never try motorcycling.
So I guess steam-power and nuke is out. Bummer! I will embrace electric bikes. BTW, I have a escooter and a fat ebike (bicycle) and they are both friggen amazing.
Thoughts on loud pipes save lives? Everybody hits the rev limiter when a car driver cuts them off or doesn't see them as a warning like hey I'm here. I guess you could still use the horn but with loud pipes at least they can hear you
There are relatively cheap Beginner electric bikes that go moderate speeds , I did a bunch of videos on mine and even though it's not that known I'd say it's a pretty good commuter
once they get a handle on the price, and range/charge time, electrics will not be the future, but the now. i built an ebike for a winter project, and i really like it. mine uses a combination of on board 36v batteries, and two 18v tool batteries. i can carry four charged batteries, and double my range. they swap out in seconds, and i have a 30 minute charger for them at home. i've been thinking i could mount one on board so that i could recharge on the go wherever there's an outlet. i think my next version will have regen braking feeding an ultra capacitor bank for quick charge, and discharge capabilities. it will be like a nitrous boost that refills at every stop sign. just twist the throttle, push the boost button, and hang on!
Depending on where you live / which powerCo you subscribe to, you can opt into clean energy source programs / hook into your home solar grid etc.
I am for and against transmission after being an Empulse owner. Electric motors DO have an efficient RPM range. That's why on the Empulse you have a green zone in the tachometer. The motor is most efficient in that RPM range. Electric motors do not rev to the moon. A lot of the powerful electric motorcycles they choose or build a motor that will operate in a speedzone they are spec'd for. I honestly think the Empulse has too many gears I think instead of 6 maybe 3 would have been fine. But one cool thing about having the gears you can adjust your regen by keeping the revs up. Much like an ICE if you want more engine braking you downshift, it works the same way on an electric motor. With a one speed direct drive you can't do that as your RPMs drop you loose regen. One motorcycle with lower power motors gears would make it run much more efficiency, you can choose the gear for the terrain you are riding on.
First of all, fucking *love* the highside / lowside format. A++, would watch again lol. Ok, electric bikes - Lem and Spurge hit the problem from both ends. IF an electric bike is going to command 20-30k, that bike has got to be 'enough' (both range and recharge rate) to be a person's only bike. IF the bike is going to have reduced range / recharge rate, then it has to be cheap enough to be a person's 2nd bike. For me, 150 miles + 30 minute recharge rate under $25k would be the 'minimum' starting point. The Livewire is close (140 miles, 40 minutes recharge, $30k) but it's not quite there. It can't replace my FXR, so I can't justify the purchase. The Zero SR/F is also close (161 miles, 60 minute recharge, $25k) - but still not quite there. AND as was mentioned, Alta had an amazing bike, and disappeared. Rumor has it that Zero only sold ~600 bikes last year. A 5 year warranty is useless if the company goes belly up - I'd pay more for HD, knowing that company is going to be around for a while still, and that warranty will MEAN something. If Harley came out and said "Oh, btw, we guarantee battery upgrades for Livewire over the coming years as a drop in replacement", THEN I could justify that $30k price. But... here we are. So close, but not quite there.
I'm not really all that excited for electric motorcycles. They're great for urban use, but I value being able to ride long distances. Given the issues with energy density and charge time, I don't think electric motorcycles are going to be suitable for that use case for at least a century. What I would love, though, is a plug-in hybrid motorcycle. It's a bit more complex, but it has a lot of advantages. For one, you can use grid power for short distances, which massively improves on cost and environmental impact, but you still have the combustion engine to recharge for long distances. Additionally, the hybrid approach is actually a really efficient way to use chemical fuels. Electric engines are much better for delivering power; They're not only more performant and have better response, but they're also highly and equally efficient at any level of power output. Additionally, using combustion engines for generation means you can always run them at optimal RPMs, increasing their fuel efficiency massively. Combine these and you have a system that's more powerful and more efficient than directly using the combustion engine; It's been the standard for marine propulsion for half a century, with excellent results. I haven't seen a whole lot of news for them yet, but combined with biofuels, I think they're the perfect solution for sustainable long-range personal transport, and I can't wait to see some come onto market.
When people ask me if I'm religious, I tell them that I belong to the Church of Lemmy.
The real problem is convincing people it's worth it. My honda nc700x gets 60 mpg, it's got 20,000 miles on it. Relatively no maintenance and cheaper than all electric bikes. So where is the savings. Every 5 years, a top end and valves are cheaper than a new $6000 battery. The "savings" on fuel are negligible. Still have to do tires, brakes. To convert me, I need it to be cheaper than current bikes.
Amazing Content as always. Keep the shiny side up!
Great topic
Not an electric bike fan
Have you ever ridden one?
If I recall correctly, Tesla has been making attempts to subsidize electricity generation with solar power.
The con nobody seemed to want to touch on is the environmental impact of the production of the batteries and what happens with them when they need to be replaced.
You reckon it's impossible to change your engine braking strength on a internal combustion engine bike? I guess you guys haven't ridden a modern superbike recently... you can change it literally with the press of a button.
Please discuss the environmental aspects of disposal of the lithium batteries at the end of life. The batteries can't be recycled, and the lithium never goes away. It leaches from the landfills into the water system. What is the environmental impact of lithium?
Lithium-technology batteries can already be recycled, there just isn’t much demand for it yet.
Bernd DasBrot, yes, but the lithium used in the batteries still has ample supply for production, so there’s little demand for *recycling* the batteries to reclaim the lithium therein for reuse.
Electric bikes are the future!
as long as they offer both gas and electric that's cool...why does it have to be either or. it's like vegans...we're cool with them being vegan but they're always trying to convince us we should be vegan.
You should be.
@@normandy2501 a vegan driving a hummer is more environmentally friendly than a carnivore driving a Prius. Look it up
@@animallover9378 bah to both analogies!
@R Parker, yes once we figure out how to have a sustainable energy source that does not require us to be burning copious amounts of fossil fuels to attain it.
Also the electrical network across the board would need to be upgraded to account for all the vehicles that are charging, just something to think. about.
@@normandy2501 batteries are horrible for the environment. Far worse than current fuels produce.
I have to confess to having had a really negative view of electric motorcycles ,till last summer when my young nephew who'd only been riding 2 or 3 years called to my house with his new Zero SR, he said "lets see how it does in a drag race against your bike" (my bike's a GSX-R 1000R) so we went up to a pretty deserted country road and he kicked my ass, no matter how many times we tried he left me for dead up to nearly 120mph when the gixxer would reel it in and overtake but realistically 0 to 120mph covers probably 95% of your every day biking, he lent me the Zero for the day a short time later and I loved that acceleration, what I didn't like was that in sport mode you could almost watch the battery life dropping like a stone and I found the silence of the bike slightly unnerving ,as did a few people who walked out onto the road in front of the bike but you'd soon get used to the lack of engine sound, at the minute the only thing that'd stop me buying one is the appalling battery range and also they're still a lot heavier than sports bikes.
Sometimes, it is interesting to look at things from a different perspective. Suppose we never developed the gasoline piston engine, and we were all driving around in Tesla-like vehicles with all their current limitations. Of course, we would have developed some work arounds to minimize the inconvenience of the limited distance and charging times like lots of superchargers and maybe easily replaceable batteries.
Suppose someone came to us and said they just developed a gasoline piston engine that could go 400 miles between re-fueling and be re-fueled in 5 minutes. But ... it has 100 moving parts instead of basically one moving part in our electrical motors. Also, it requires a bunch of complicated stuff like a transmission, a carburetor or fuel injector, and a fuel pump. Plus, all these things also have many moving parts. Plus, you'll have to lug around a tank of highly flammable liquid which could even explode. Plus, this contraption is going to belch out clouds of toxic gasses that can literally kill you in minutes in a closed space. And, to add insult to injury, you are going to need a battery and electric motor to just to start this Rube Goldberg contraption.
I think we would take a pass on the gasoline piston engine, and stay with the limitations of the electric motor and battery, and work on overcoming those limitations. YMMV.
Dealerships will suffer loss of revenue. Tune ups, oil change, ............
Creative destruction. Society will adjust just like how horseshoes are no longer commonplace maintenance for your transportation.
Price, range, rechargeability, replacement costs, and resale value are all issues that need to be addressed before electric bikes can become dominant.
Electric bikes have become a hype in The Netherlands, please bring more reviews!
Great discussion. New riders being attracted to motorcycling shouldn't be overlooked here. Yes, a lot of existing riders have endless gripes which you've documented. But I am a new rider - 44 years old, got my license two weeks ago. I'm also a cyclist and was attracted to motorcycling as a clean, fun way to get to work and quick trips around town. I want to go electric. Range is not an issue for me - 45 miles is fine. Top speed is not an issue either - I don't want to drive on the freeway. Ironically, I ended up going with a CSC SG250 since I wanted to learn how to ride and maintain a simpler UJM-styled bike for traveling overseas and bike touring while there. But my next bike (which I will buy a year from now) will be electric. So, I'm proof that electric bikes will attract new riders to the motorcycling community! 😊
you guys should look up efficiency of electric motors in comparison to combustion engines. Even with power out of a dirty coal plant they are better then every combustion engine. Then look up how much engere is used to refine crude oil into gas and this calculation get much worse.
With electric motors you have the chance to get clean energy.
It's not really clean unless the power generation is clean. For that you need hydro, wind, solar, geothermal. And then, the infrastructure required for those takes energy to produce. Think metal mining, transportation, maintenance. It may be clean at the vehicle, but at every phase prior there is some pollution and/or environmental impact. So, bottom line, the Portlanders can offload their environmental impacts to Wyoming or eastern Oregon.
David Smith
There power can be clean and that’s a huge difference in comparison. And battery production is getting cleaner and the need fore rare earths and stuff like cobalt is going down. This a a development that you can’t find in ce cars.
I'm buying a Zero DS. It won't be my only bike. I can't wait for them to build a Honda Goldwing that's electric and goes 500 miles on a charge.
Never gonna happen for Honda 500miles. Zero is a million years ahead
Devon Ellesse lmfaooo it always makes me laugh when people say shit like that. Motorcycle companies have copied technology forever, Honda has the capital they’ll just let the smaller companies do all the upfront work and then deviate from their designs slightly to make theirs better
@@thatguycalledart6270 apples and oranges homie. Battery tech and cycle tech are miles apart (ps - if its so easy then why dont they just DO IT???)
Devon Ellesse same reason that most electric companies are folding, the market doesn’t want it enough to be worth investing
@@thatguycalledart6270 tell it to ZERO - who is already manufacturing an electric bike harley davidson wont be able to catch next year with their first electric bike LIVEWIRE 😋😋😋
Jeeze, guys. It's past time for a fun one.
Never thought I'd be a Luddite on this but I personally love the sounds and quirks and presence of the the engine... electric bikes don't really have that same with cars. They are better machines but they feel the part and are harder to trick into personifying or some sense of person-hood and whathaveyou.
with the dyno graphs ive seen of tesla cars the peak torque seems to fall off at around 40-45mph. i think that gear boxes have a role to play in e vehicles but in a slightly different way than you would expect. i expect to see 2 and 3 speed gear boxes to keep the bike in peak torque.
Lightning LS-218 . . . one gear
There's no advantage to a gearbox. Revving the motor does no harm, unlike petrol. At the point the motor starts to lose torque it's making maximum power and it holds close to maximum power right to the rev limit.
If you want more torque then just increase the size of the motor. It's less increase than adding a gearbox.
Simple answer is no. Why? What is the first mod most people do? Exhaust. Why is that? People love the visceral feeling, sounds and smells of motorcycling. There is a place for them for sure but they won’t eliminate the real feels. Add to that the silence and you get the “loud pipes save lives” people holding their ground.
I have an 2015 KTM Freeride E and have 10.100 km on the odometer so far. I’m using it for commuting to / from work and shorter trips from home. I also have a 690 Duke which I also use for commuting and longer trips. In my view electric bikes are the future and once charging times and range are at acceptable levels many will jump to electric bikes. Emissions regulations will force the change in the end.
Nuclear power is the way of the future
Mr Fusion on every bike
Imagine riding behind someone 20miles back and you see a bike explode
As much as I love the capability, nuclear is dead
You have a CSC motorcycle. You do know they also sell an inexpensive Grom-sized electric bike as well? Why not order up your own cheap electric bike and let us know what you think of it? I agree off road is the best market for electric. How many areas are off limits due to noise issues? What excuse can they use if they allow mountain bikes? An electric bike just uses a battery for propulsion rather than foot power. Banning them would be a lot more difficult if the noise goes away.
Why doesn't Anthony partake in these?
Ok about laguna Seca. If you buy a house near a track then deal with the sound. I don't really think it is the tracks fault.
Correct, price is the problem. I love the HD electric bike, but it is excessively expensive.
Costs will come down with wider adoption
I'd love to buy a secondary electric bike for computing around city but cost is the biggest hurdle imo cause a range of 150-200 km is good enough for my usage.
Really good episode. I'm actually really excited to see what will become of electric vehicles in the next few especially bikes.
Motorcycles gotta SOUND like a motorcycle in my book.
I like quiet bikes, in my experience loud ones just piss people off.
@@daynmitchell7543 I rather piss people off than get ran into because I wasn't noticed.
I think a gearbox would be a good thing on an electric bike, it would make your distance go way up. The biggest Achilles heel of electric motors is that the faster you spin them the less distance they can cover, if you could gain speed while running your motor at a low rpm, your distance coverage would be much greater and the fact that its an electric motor, there would not be a torque curve like with a gas engine with the changing of the ratios.
No. That's not how electric motor work.
That was a good one. Thanks Guys 👍🏼 👏👏👏
I was considering an Electric Motorcycle to use as a commuter but hands down the price was the reason I changed my mine.
Great debate lads.👍
Ok I’m lucky enough to have 3 bikes. I have an Africa Twin for mile crunching adventure
A Honda Rebel 500 for backroad fun and a Zero FXS for commuting and getting around town.
What I’ve found is that when I open the garage in the morning, unless I have no other choice, I take the Zero. It’s lighter, faster and just less hassle. It handles brilliantly and it’s plenty fast for me.
The range is a real world 50 miles and re-charge is about 2 hours with the incredible clunky fast charger that I keep in a tail bag
But it’s just soooo easy that I enjoy every journey like it was that first time you rode out on your own. It feels special. If range and re-charge were sorted The Rebel (insert mid range bike) would go.
I’d love to go touring on it if range allowed. Price wise it cost me 9K which is more than the Rebel and less than the Africa Twin.
The BIG problem everyone forgets about when they talk about this stuff is that they are hellish to insure. In the U.K. I have 1 broker that will insure it and it costs more than the Africa Twin.
Simply because there isn’t enough actuarial data on them for re-insurers to assess the risk.
The way I think this has to go is for the manufacturers to agree a common standard for the battery and then you have a corner of your Gas Station where (for a fee) you exchange your depleted battery for a freshly charged one.
Otherwise you are always going to have this issue .
It’s not like you can carry a rotopax full of electricity on the side panniers just in case. Or jump on the back of your mates bike with a empty battery and go fill it somewhere.
But if you ignore the problems of range and recharge and are young enough that you don’t get all misty eyed at the thought of adjusting your carburettor needle on a damp foggy morning using tools you made from things you dug out of the ground, then why would you ride anything else? They are just hassle.
Sometimes I want that hassle (it’s half the fun of biking as a hobby) but when you have actual shit to do... electric all the way.
Oh and thanks for the content guys!
Thanks for what you do, you are entertaining.
The smell and the sound is half the reason to ride a bike.
Fuck the smell of a greasy pile of metal and oily fumes. Smell some clean fresh air. 🌲 It's the future. And it's dope
Agreed with the price comment. I'm OK with a 250 mile range, just can't justify paying 3x as much for the same functionality.
I love a silent bike - any bike I buy has to A) be reasonably quiet, the quieter the better, and B) still have emissions control in place. > 50% of why I ride is for ecological reasons - with a 50 mile daily commute it's good to have something that gets 75 MPG.
just some reasons that I'm interested, but not going to bay a e-bike
200 miles, less then 30 mins re-charge time,
or a battery change stations just as changing batteries on a cellphone 10 years ago, which happening in Taiwan, free battery change and re-charge stations just like gas stands.
My CB400 gives me 240 kilometers ride and less then 10 mins to refuel (Full as 17L)
any reasons for me to give away my 12 years old super four and have a 20000 dollar bike but not better then that?
A bike with no sound or hardly any would be a death trap on the road.
Another great podcast. That topic killed me for some reason. Many upsides and downsides
Not having the sound of exhaust and motors takes away an element from motorcycling. When I hear a nice sounding exhaust system, my head turns. My head has never turned to listen to a tesla.
One of my biggest issues now trying to buy a petrol power Motorcycle for the first time is that I don't want a bike that sounds like an angry bumblebee, I kinda want some rolling thunder not much but just enough that people in cars, trucks and rigs can hear me coming. I mean people already don't really see riders sometimes so I think the sound is a good component to have for rider visibility.
I love these exchange, I'm sorry to not listen to the, in podcasts, it's too much fun seing you. Keep up the good work!
I think you guys started to hit on a topic that will have the most impact but then abandoned it and went another direction and that's the service industry and aftermarket industry. Most dealerships, if they're being honest, make most of their money in these two categories. It's not sales of new or used bikes that keeps the doors open. If/when electric motorcycles become the mainstream and if they're as efficient and maintenance free as proposed, who's going to be around to sell them? I know that's a long time down the road, but if we're not looking 50 years ahead we will kill an industry and a favorite pastime of millions of people. The second thought here is the visceral feeling of riding. The vibrations, smell, sound of riding a street bike. Most of us don't want to replace that with electric bikes that are silent. We want that loud exhaust. We want to feel the engine beneath us. That's all as much a part of riding as being on two wheels. Lastly, you would eliminate many parts of the country as viable riding destinations. How many country back roads or scenic highways or woods would become obsolete for riding because there is barely a gas station within a hundred miles, much less a charging station? I understand why the city commuter would be all over this and that's fine, but it's not for the mainstream motorcyclist.
EM's will have their place mainly for city commuters.But I doubt that they will ever replace traditional MC's If they didn't cost so much I would buy one just for running around the neighborhood, and to the grocery store.I do have a question, will the battery develope a memory ? Another question, how long will the battery last 2,4,6 years or more ?
After 160,000 goes down to 80% charge
If I could run the TAT on an electric bike, as well as go highway coast to coast, then I would be on board. Electric bikes are awesome, and easy to work on. The problem is that it's just not feasible as a replacement for my dino bike.
Imo, it's just a matter of time before the last IC engine motorcycle are manufactured. The Electric revolution is coming hard and fast. The only drawbacks(at this time) being the battery range and it's recharge time. As for as the sounds go, I predict some audio equipment to mimic the exhaust note based on the amount of throttle. It helps others on the road(to know a motoryclce is around) plus gives the rider another sensory reception of power at the wheel.