@@joaogabriellimadoria2971did people skip the final episode of the season? My mom was tripping when I tried to bring up that scene to her as well. Why does everyone forget the ending? It’s really good.
I actually appreciate that this video had visual comparisons between dragons because it made me realize that Vermithor and Caraxes are pretty big, Vhagar and Balerion (his skull) are IMMENSE. Also the thing about Dreamfyre iirc, is that Rhaena died before Viserys ascended, so if Dreamfyre didn't have a rider until Helaena, she might have been chained under the dragon pit for 20 or so years, which might explain why she isn't very big.
If we use book numbers: Rhaena Targaryen, who rode her often, died at Harrenhal in 73AC. Dreamfyre made her lair in the Dragonpit until Helaena claimed her at age 11, or in 120AC (May be different in HOTD) Between 73AC and 120AC, Dreamfyre stayed in the Dragonpit chained up for 47 YEARS! No wonder she is nowhere as big as Vermithor, who was ridden regularly and lived on Dragonstone unchained.
Dreamfyre is 100 years old so she is only slightly bigger than Caraaxes and Melys who both 75 years old because of her confinement she pales in size to Vermithor and Silverwing despite being older than both of them, Vermithor is 95 years old and the third largest dragon alive behind The Cannibal who is the second largest and second oldest dragon alive and is well over 100 years old although his exact age is unknown and Vhagar is the largest and oldest dragon alive at 181 years old and Silverwing is 90 years old. So Dreamfyre is the third oldest dragon alive and the fifth largest dragon alive.
We should add an additional multiplier for 'real world' combat experience. In addition to the massive size advantage of Vhegar there are also all those years of flash broiling Dorne to consider. Of course the Cannibal committing actual dragon-on-dragon violence probably needs a few extra side ticks as well.
And Caraxes (& in the show, Seasmoke) also has veteran battle-dragon status- not just the War in the Stepstones as in the show, but earlier conflict^ -- size is an issue of advantage, but the Blacks have *more* combat experience dragons; Vermithor, though unclaimed currently- has been ridden in battle^ Vhagar may be the biggest, oldest, & most experienced in combat -- but I believe the war will illustrate that there are battles that won't be won solely on that fact...
Realistically I don’t think size doesn’t even matter too much. If Meleys is supposedly the fastest dragon, and Caraxes also seems faster and more nimble than Vhagar then I don’t see Vhagar having a good chance in a 2 v 1. In the air weight doesn’t matter so much and both Meleys and Caraxes could seriously injure/kill Vhagar if the angle of attack is right. And the faster/ more nimble dragons would probably have an easier time dictating the angle of attack. It probably boils down to a dragon on dragon dog fight where the situation and positioning would matter more than size. There a countless videos of falcons completely destroying birds like albatrosses multiple times their size.
@@ld8607in the book, the fight opposing Vhagar, Sunfyre and Meleys was much different than in the show: it ended up in a 'dance', where the dragons stopped listening to their riders and were all over each other clenching their claws with one another, biting, thrashing and tearing apart until they all started to fall dragging each other down. The crash was so powerful that it made windows break and walls collapse even miles away. Meleys died on the spot, Sunfyre came out so gravely injured that it was unable to fly and had to be left there crawling around the battlefield, while Vhagar was basically unscathed and could fly right back. Honestly she isn't getting a slight burn from their fire in the first place, and she's too big with a much too thick hide to be taken down by chip damage or even significantly injured when she came out of this with no apparent damage. They could probably kill her, but it's very unlikely that any of them would survive the fight-which *could* be a fair trade for the Blacks if it didn't include sacrificing Daemon in the process
@@mattb.7079 I know how it was in the books. I’m just talking about how dragon on dragon “aerial combat“ would realistically turn out. However in the books sunfire and Meleys are fighting when Vhagar comes from above, keeping in mind that the books have an unreliable narrator, I think it’s telling that the dragon coming from above was unharmed whereas the other two where dead or seriously wounded. Even the book hints at the angle of attack being decisive in that way.
I’d say Dreamfyre is equal to Meleys. She’s described as not bred for war, with a slender frame. During the black council they say “and ours are larger except for Vhagar for dragons grow best on Dragonstone”. Only Vhagar is bigger than the blacks dragons, not Dreamfyre. She must be the size of Meleys and Caraxes despite their 30 year age gap. She’s a notorious egg layer that has been chained in the pit longer than any other dragon. We also know that both Vermithor and Silverwing surpassed her in size despite being hatched around a decade later. Sunfyre wasn’t a cradle egg. He was claimed by Aegon on Dragonstones volcano which suggest he was already at a riding size. He had to have been at least a decade old when Aegon claimed him. Meaning he could potentially be Syrax’s size. It would be a nice parallel to make Syrax and Sunfyre brother and sister.
This is probably what I sound like when I take half an hour to explain to my friends (who know nothing about asoiaf) why Lancel could be the valonqar based on my knowledge of High Valyrian
Don't we get told Vermithor is second biggest (> Silverwing and Dreamfyre) ..'...only Balerion and Vhagar were larger'; and that Dreamfyre is 'slender'?
Yes, and tbh the show’s not consistent by its own rules nor accurate to the source. Syrax is supposed to be ‘huge and formidable’ but has barely grow since ep 1, while Sunfyre looks to be significantly larger than her already in the trailers. The Black dragons should have boosted growth due to presumably being free roam on Dragonstone for 6 years while Dreamfyre and Sunfyre should be growing slower being kept in the dragonpit.
@@3MB4RVermithor has been stated to be the largest and OLDEST dragon after Vhagar in regards to show canon. On his description on the officiall HBO companion Guide for HotD and by his designer, Constantine Sekeris. And based on what we see of him in S2 trailer and at the end of eps 10 of S1, he is fairly huge. And can't be pushing less than 70% the size of Vhagar.
@@agrimmeon9308 The best part about this is, that it's a mistake, because Dreamfyre is at least 2 years older, Glyndayne had a math error there. But it's reasonable that Vermithor is bigger given the fact that Dreamyfre was ridden less, spend more time chained in the dragonpit and layed a ton of eggs. The math: Dreamfyre bonded to Rhaena in 32AC, Vermithors egg was given to Jaehaerys in his cradle by Rhaena in 34AC.
If it makes you feel any better Glimbus I think it’s canonical that dragons have irregular growth rates from individual to individual. Iirc in Fire and Blood they mention that Vhagar is actually smaller than Merexas at the time of the conquest despite being a bit older. Vermathor’s size also kind of defies explanation. He’s not the oldest post conquest dragon, but by the time of the dance he is consistently described as the second largest after Vhagar. No such similar distinction is made for the similarly aged Silverwing, or Dreamfyre and he seems to have attained this size in spite of likely spending a fair amount of time held in some form of captivity. TLDR: dragon growth rates seem to defy most rational explanations or categorization.
We don't have as much written about Vermathor but he can probably be compared to Dany's dragons and especially Drogon who grows even by the standard of other fast growing dragons extremely quickly
Its probably based on several factors: age, diet and riders. A dragon that is ridden by a warrior who takes them into battle regularly and feasts on the best meats is likely going to get bigger then one who is used primarily for transport only. Might also explain Dany's dragons later on - they are used for combat very early into their lives and actually get to eat people. Drogon becomes the biggest because he got to roam freely, gorging on whatever he wanted, while his brothers (siblings? Dragon gender is a bit vague sometimes) were chained down and only ate what they were given until being freed. Presumably once at Dragonstone they hunted extensively, rapidly becoming giant. By the time they went to the North they were all vastly larger then Drogon was when Dany first started riding him, rivalling the size of the old dragons of the past despite only being a few years old. Oh, and they are magic made flesh. So logic doesn't need to apply.
No they don't. Vhagar and Meraxes are never compared in age. All the books state that the two dragons were younger than Balerion and hatched on Dragonstone. There is nothing else. I don't understand where you people draw these conclusions from? Certainly you don't think older dragons goes to older siblings? There are multiple contradictions to that. Vhagar was alive over 20 years before Visenya was born, as Vhagar was directly stated to be 181 when she died, meaning she was born in 51 -52 BC. Visenya was 27 at the start of the Conquest in 2 BC. Dreamfyre was claimed as a hatchling by a 9 year old Rhaena, and ridden by her 3 years later in 34 AC when Rhaena was 12, the same year Jaehaerys was born and she supposedly gave Vermithor's egg to him. That's a 3 - 4 year minimum age gap between Vermithor and Dreamfyre. That is an absolutely insignificant amount of time compared to a dragons 200 + year life span. On top of that, even though she was active while Rhaena was alive, Dreamfyre spent around 47 years in the Dragonpit after she died. Vermithor was directly stated to have been kept at the Red Keep with Silverwing, with no statement on whether or not they were chained, and then lived on Dragonstone for 27 years. Its not unbelievable whatsoever that he could've been larger than her. Drogon was larger than Viserion and Rhaegal as babies, in GoT and the books, yet they were literally all born at the same time.
Fun fact: Cannibal was actually killed in the shadowlands beyond Ashai by the most powerful dragon to ever stalk the sky’s. Surpassing my leaps and bounds those great Valyrian dragons which made Balerion look like a kitten, the drake know simply as “Math Dragon” is the true power of asoiaf
15 seconds of a guy saying something slightly incorrect = 20 minute video quantifying the ages of made of creatures. I'm so proud of my fellow autistics.
This just makes me sit and ponder the dynamic between Targaryens who end up inheriting an adult dragon vs. those who hatch a cradle egg. Cause you could say that at the start of the war, at least, it’s a clean divide with the Greens having inherited dragons, and the Blacks having cradle eggs (I’m sure there’s a metaphor here I just can’t think of it now). And I’m thinking of the pros and cons associated with cradle eggs wherein it’s probably safer than the ‘walk up and say hi’ option, but it leaves that given Targaryen tied to a dragon much weaker than those older than it. But also I can’t imagine certain characters not having at least a cradle egg, but still somehow reaching adulthood with no dragon. Alicent’s kids have the excuse at least of Viserys not caring and Alicent not really being connected to the whole dragon ritual stuff. But there’s also instances like Maegor refusing to bond with a dragon until Balerion became riderless again, which, yeah on brand but it is weird that besides Quicksilver and later Dreamfyre there’s a whole zilch in terms of dragons post Conquest. It could just be that the tag team of weird dragon fans in Rhaenyra and Daemon explain the pre-Dance dragon boom. At least in the show Daemon is playing an active effort in the tending and cultivation of dragons, and Rhaenyra is making a point of all her kids having one. Given there were only three (four if you include one that eats other dragons) dragons at the Conquest, and dragons don’t really have genders, we have to presume that the eggs come from Balerion, Meraxys, and Vhagar. Thinking on it I bet that part of the weird sibling incest stuff the Targaryens do is connected to dragon interbreeding, where however they do it the inbreeding risk is not a factor. Now here’s a question: if left in the wild will dragon eggs hatch on their own? The aftermath of the Dance says no, but Cannibal’s kill counts say yes. I bring this up to ask how important the presence of a Valyrian descendent is to the whole hatching process. I need to stop here the autistic dragon math has led to autistic dragon biology.
. Vhagar - Directly stated to be 181 years old at her death and the largest living dragon in the known world after Balerions death . Vermithor - Supposedly hatched in Jaehaerys crib in 34 - 35 Ac, 95 - 96 years old, and directl stated to be the largest dragon after Vhagar and Balerion in book canon and the largest and oldest dragon after Vhagar in show canon. Nearly the size of Vhagar according to HotDs dragon designers. . Dreamfyre - Claimed by Rhaena as a hatchling in 32 AC, making her roughly 98 years old. Described as slender. Smaller tham Vermithor. . Silverwing - Supposedly hatched in Alyssanes cradle in 36 - 37 AC, meaning shes 93 - 94 years old. Described as slender . The Cannibal - Older than Sheepstealer but not larger than Balerion (208+), Vhagar (181), and Vermithor (95+) . Sheepstealer - Stated to be smaller than Cannibal but larger than Grey Ghost. Hatched when the old king was young meaning between 34 AC - 54 AC. Makes him 95 - 76 years old. . Caraxes - Claimed as a young dragon by Aemon Targaryen in 72 AC. Half the size of Vhagar. 57 + years old . Meleys - Claimed as a young ridable dragon by Alyssa in 74 AC. Swifter than Vhagar and Caraxes, and potential contender of the former. 55 + years old . Syrax - Hatched to Rhaenyra in show canon accordomg to Ryan Condal making her 34 - 35 years old. . Seasmoke - Of a comparable size to Syrax in HotD, slightly larger as of S2. . Sunfyre - As of S2 trailers, comparable in body size to Syrax with a more slender frame and larger wings. Claimed by Aegon as a hatchling from the Dragonmount in the books . Tessarion - 1/3rd the size of Vermithor in the books. Whether claimed by or hatched to Daeron is unknown. . Grey Ghost - Smaller than Cannibal and Sheepstealer. Killed by Sunfyre. Hatch date unknown. . Vermax - Hatched to Jace. 15 - 16 years old. . Moondancer - Hatched to Baela in show canon. 15 - 16 years old. . Arrax - Hatched to Luke. 14 years old. . Tyraxes - Hatched to Joffrey. 5 - 6 years old in show canon.
A few notes: With the changed timeline Vhagar, Vermithor, Dreamfyre and SIlverwing all would be at least 2 years older, since the Dance takes place in 132 AC in the show. Vermithor being called the second oldest is a mistake by Gyldayn. We know that Dreamfyre is at least 2 years older as she had bonded with Rhaena in 32AC and Jaehaerys was born in 34AC, which is reflective in your own notes up there. And that mistake isn't from HOTD, it's from Fire and Blood, but it probably got carried over. I could not find a source stating that Sheepstealer is bigger than Grey Ghost (or smaller for that matter), is this from HOTD behind the scenes?
@@TemariNaraannaschatzGreat points, people always make the mistake saying Vermithor is second oldest because he was second largest (among the tamed dragons) but it was Rhaena, rider of Dreamfyre, who placed the egg in the old kings cradle. I remember Sheepstealer was born during the old kings early days, so they’re close in age to Maelys? And Grey ghosts interaction with Sunfyre kinda gives off the theory that he his likely smaller…
I think a problem with some of this math is that baselining Vhagar at 10 and only giving yourself 9 other figures for the other dragons is probably underselling Vhagar unless the gaps between numbers is exponential. She's old and sort of dont give a fuck, but she's unstoppable on a mission.
I understand that this was going off of ages, but I do think Dreamfyre could be lower than Vermithor. Vermithor was known as the Bronze Fury, whereas I can't think of Dreamfyre having done anything particularly aggressive. But then, in HOTD she looks massive to me. Perspective is really off in that one shot of her. I'd put Vermithor and Cannibal at 9, and Rhaegal and Viserion below Drogon, but I'm not sure the GOT show dragons can be measured on the same scale as the HOTD dragons.
sunfyre and tessarion are both bigger and older than any of the blacks kids dragons because they aren’t cradle egss. they were both born on dragonstone and were already “young” dragons when aegon and daeron were born. love you glimbog x
To be honest, I'd be willing to but Vermithor at a 10. Think about it. I'm almost possitive that we are told Vermy is the second largest dragon at this point, and any size charts that you look up also show him as being larger than Dreamfyre. He's almost as large as Vhagar, but is about half Vhagar's age. We can see that Vhagar is a bit sluggish given how old she is, and we haven't seen much of how Vermy moves in the show (Yes I've read the books and know what happenes, I'm just going by the show's logic so far). So I think for once, Vermithor's younger age would actually be a fight. Just my thoughts though.
From what I understand it, Vermithor is big, and strong, but he's not THAT big. What sets him apart is being utterly insane and very violent and aggressive. Enough that it does make up for him not being too large.
@@thaneofwhiterun3562 why is he insane? I cant remember that. I know he is called "the bronze Fury" but was there ever elaborated why, except for his huge size?
@@jakobschoning7355 Because he was the dragon of a king for like 60 years I think, it's a big, strong, healthy, dominant and powerful dragon. Like a little piece of the more violent side of ol' King Joe maybe.
If we’re taking the events of the war into account, Sunfyre should be a damn 7-9 considering how aggressive and competent he is in battle, and his bond with Aegon being the strongest dragonbond of the age…Sunfyre had a dawg in him the size of Balerion.
If it is an age list, then it's correct. As a power rating definitely not, Hotd showcases (much better than Got) that dragons are different, they have different shapes, qualities, growth rates. I mostly disagree on putting dreamfyre so high and caraxes so low, as caraxes was thought litterary from birth to be aggressively bloodthirsty, and an incredible fighter, which is proven later with taking down vhagar, dying about an hour later, all the while being half the size. And dreamfyre, while old just isn't that powerful, she's described as slender and fast instead of fierce and big. Vhagar, Caraxes and Vermithor are the strongest Dragons at the time and while most of the people in the show think vhagar is the greatest weapon, caraxes is not that far behind.
I swear if Cannibal never shows up in this series, it's going to be so confusing why he's mentioned so much in Fire and Blood and the World of Ice and Fire. My theory is that he has to be on Skagos because GRRM specifically writes that Cannibal went North. It also gives Jon a dragon very early on, without having to wait for Daenerys to finally show up. It gives Young Griff a dragon, further complicating the truth about his parentage. And it gives a spare dragon to kill off at some point in the story, which would probably be Rhaegal, as it makes sense that the dragons die in the order that the people they are named after die.
They don't count, neither does Stormcloud as none of them were ridable yet. And of course they were bonded to small children who couldn't be used in warfare.
Yooo Glidus was mentioned on GRRM’s not a blog? I just checked it and had to do a double take when seeing your name and Alt Shift X lmaooo. What a world.
I think the dragons can safely be divided into “generations” The first Generation is Balarion. The second is Vahgar and Maraxes. The third is Cannibal, Dreamfyre, Vermithor, and Silverwing. The fourth is Caraxes, Sheepstealer and Melys. The fifth is Syrax, Sunfire, and Seasmoke. The sixth is Vermax, Tyrax, Moondancer, Grey Ghost, and Tessarion. If every single last Sixth Generation dragon tried to attack Vahgar, they would all die.
I don’t think people realize that tessarion and sunfyre arent cradle eggs and are much older than glidus thinks. Especially since Daeron was born in the same year as Jace.
My thing with Dreamfyre is that we actually don't really know if she's older than Vermithor. We know that Vermithor hatched when Jaehaerys was a babe in the cradle, because Rhaena put the egg into it. But noone did this for Rhaena, so she might've hatched Dreamfyre when she was older, maybe even after Vermithor was hatched. The other thing is that Dreamfyre wasn't a battle dragon, and she basically spent most of her life in the Dragonpit, whereas Vermithor fought even beyond the wall. If we assume that the dragon in the pit in ep 6 is Dreamfyre, she actually seems to be much smaller than Vermithor. So I would say that 9 for Vermithor and 8 for Dreamfyre is fair game
Good video. I know the focus was merely the dragons' ages and correlated size, but a big argument in the book about dragon "viability" is not only their size but their (and their rider's) fighting prowess. Vhagar and Caraxes have known the most battle in their lives. Dreamfyre, despite being older and relatively large, is ridden by Helaena, who is not much of a rider or warrior, so she is less of a factor when considering the two sides' arsenals.
My speakers broke so I had to watch this on mute and just guess what you're talking about, and I'm gonna be honest, I don't agree that Vhagar is the most fuckable dragon, she is simply too old to be a 10.
You just forget one factor: The dragonpit/enclosure time. Syrax is 15y +~- older than Sunfyre, but she was kept so much time coiling, under the dragonmount/pit and not being taken for a fly for Rhaenyra that she became not as big as she should be. This is stated in the books, if i'm well remembered, although she was still "huge and formidable". Seasmoke is probably bigger, and battle-hardened. I should suffice that for some reason, Sunfyre suffered a Dany's dragons growth in a year spam (Which probably was caused due to eating dragon meat) Dreamfyre is pretty old, yes, but she was kept for too much time in the Dragonpit and did not see battle for a long time. Vermithor is specifically said to be the second largest dragon in the Dance.
Also, Drogon after his season 7 protein shake is roughly the same size of Caraxes. Caraxes is a little bit longer and takes a small edge, but Drogon is far more muscular. He's close to Meleys.
So... Sunfyre (5) Caraxes (8) Meleys (8) Vermithor (9 or 10) Silverwing (8 or 9) Syrax (5 or 6) Seasmoke (5 or 6) Drogon (8) I think the Strong bois dragons should all be 1 up, if we count Stormcloud (Aegon the Younger's dragon) the (1) size dragon.
I'm gonna ask my sister if her Doctorate in Mathematics/Statistics included a unit on Autism Dragon Numbers because frankly it should. (Melbourne University offered "Politics of Eurovision" unit so I wouldn't be surprised)
This comment will be spoiling the fuck out of the books so beware: Okay, so first thing we need to take into account is the fact how many of the dragons Rhaenyra actually meant to send to a war. She didn't wanted for her kids to take part in combat and more importantly - she didn't wanted *herself* to take part in combat. If you'll look closely, Rhaenyra actively avoided any fight. Whether it was due to her health complications, the fact that she wasn't a soldier or simple cowardice it doesn't matter. Rhaenyra and Syrax - they don't exist unless the things get to the last stand. Baela obviously is also taken out of the account as she didn't partook in any of the fighting. So Black have umm... Caraxes. That's it. That's the entire Black arsenal they can willingly throw into battle. One dragon that is at best 70 years old. And that's against Vhagar (the oldest living dragon) and Dreamfyre (second oldest living dragon). Helaena got taken out of the war due to Daemon's utter cruelty, but nobody knew that at the time. At best they could count on the fact that she's not a soldier so she wouldn't be fighting. But truth to be told Dreamfyre would do all fighting for her. That dragon was absolutely massive. And they obviously knew that Daeron and Aegon would take part in the fighting themselves. So without Rhaenys Blacks have 1 dragon versus Green 3-4 dragons. That's a dragon math for him. Honestly it's actually a pretty big plothole that after Rook's Rest Aemond didn't just zoomed to Dragonstone and ended the war right there, as his only opposition would be one civilian after troublesome labour that can't or won't take part in the fighting and a teenager on shrimp-sized dragon.
I feel like whe should put an * next to Dreamfyre cause i dont think there was ever any intention of Halena using it in battle. It seems like no one ever brings it up?
That's exactly what I was thinking, and no one in the show seems to be considering that. Maybe Dreamfyre would fly with Vhagar without Helaena, but she also might not. An asterisk is definately needed
How about doing a graph showing a timeline of the targaryn kings going up or down based on the stability of the realm, how well off the targs were and how good a person they were?
Its not all about size though but battle experience, the skill of the rider and the bond with the rider should be accounted for. Dreamfyre has never been in battle but is more of a breeding dragon compared to the only slightly younger Vermithor who has fought in several wars. Same with Syrax and Seasmoke. Also we have Daemon who is probably the most skilled rider with a powerful bond to Caraxes.
Glimbort a more accurate ranking would be Greens. Vhagar 12/10 (cuz 181 year old) Dreamfyre 9/10 (cuz at least 100 years old) Sunfyre 5/10 (same age range as auras but slightly younger) Tessarion 4/10 ( a generation younger than sunfyre, especially since she was large enough to contend with sea smoke) Blacks Caraxes 7/10 Syrax 6/10 Maelys 7/10 Seasmoke 5/10 (maybe 6/10) Moon dancer 1-2/10 Arrax 1-2/10 Vermax 1-2/10 Tyrraxes 1-2/10 Stormcloud 1/10 Vermithor 9/10 (cuz like 98 years old) Silverwing 9/10 (same as Vermithor but a year less) Sheepstealer 8/10 (cuz a gen younger than Vermithor) I think that’s all of them but obviously some switch sides so yee
They’re also discounting in show cannon how knowledgeable Alicent is probably is of dragons. Friends and lesson with Rhaenyra as well as listening to Viserys yapping sessions about Valyria
Glido, when are you gonna propose to me? We have so much in common, ya know? We love ASOIAF, dragons, trees, and I’m even a part-time RUclipsr/loser like you. As someone who has a ton of life experience and who has done a lot of matchmaker quizzes and relationship research on google, I’m pretty much an expert now. And although my therapist doesn’t agree with me on this, I’m certain that the attributes I listed above are all you need to have a guaranteed successful relationship. My sources: Just trust me, bro. I’m just kidding of course. Kinda.
I wouldn’t have Caraxes at 7 if I’m being honest, considering how the Aemond vs Daemon battle goes. Dreamfyre being smaller than her age suggests would make sense if all she does is sit in the dragon pit all day.
With the hindsight of season 2 it’s a pretty accurate statement that vhagar alone stronger than all of team black’s dragons combined considering Daemon only thought he could take Vhagar with Caraxes and Melys
Vermithor is definitely a 9 because of age, size, ferocity and battle experience. Caraxes not being an 8 is criminal. People can underestimate hiw much an advantage a serpentine neck is
I am biased towards Team Black but Vhagar is my favorite dragon of all time. She is just an old senile nuclear bomb that flies around with holes in her wing. Yes team black might have more dragons but only Caraxes has been in combat before. Vhagar literally helped subjugate the seven kingdoms.
Dance of the Dragons in a nutshell:
"7 is bigger than 3" vs "Why does Vhagar the bigger dragon not simply eat the smaller dragons."
To be fair, Vhagar did try to eat Arrax
@@DuckSwagington she didnt try, she did it
@@joaogabriellimadoria2971did people skip the final episode of the season? My mom was tripping when I tried to bring up that scene to her as well.
Why does everyone forget the ending? It’s really good.
@@misanthropicservitorofmars2116 To be fair, she was probably waiting for the Blisstake
Autism Dragon Numbers is the name of my in the works autobiography
LOL I came here to say that 'describe my life in 3 words' is Autism Dragon Numbers
😂 I feel so seen and so called out at the same time
@@laurelsilberman5705 Same. Very hard same.
I actually appreciate that this video had visual comparisons between dragons because it made me realize that Vermithor and Caraxes are pretty big, Vhagar and Balerion (his skull) are IMMENSE.
Also the thing about Dreamfyre iirc, is that Rhaena died before Viserys ascended, so if Dreamfyre didn't have a rider until Helaena, she might have been chained under the dragon pit for 20 or so years, which might explain why she isn't very big.
THAT'S HORIBLE, poor dragon T_T
20 years is a very long time.
If we use book numbers:
Rhaena Targaryen, who rode her often, died at Harrenhal in 73AC. Dreamfyre made her lair in the Dragonpit until Helaena claimed her at age 11, or in 120AC (May be different in HOTD)
Between 73AC and 120AC, Dreamfyre stayed in the Dragonpit chained up for 47 YEARS!
No wonder she is nowhere as big as Vermithor, who was ridden regularly and lived on Dragonstone unchained.
@@harrysmith7342 this just keeps getting worse, poor her
Dreamfyre is 100 years old so she is only slightly bigger than Caraaxes and Melys who both 75 years old because of her confinement she pales in size to Vermithor and Silverwing despite being older than both of them, Vermithor is 95 years old and the third largest dragon alive behind The Cannibal who is the second largest and second oldest dragon alive and is well over 100 years old although his exact age is unknown and Vhagar is the largest and oldest dragon alive at 181 years old and Silverwing is 90 years old. So Dreamfyre is the third oldest dragon alive and the fifth largest dragon alive.
If Daeron’s dragon is also invisible that’s kinda op
I mean it could be invisible we have never seen it so
Is Tessarion secretly a Night Fury?
@@Fmc_Devilhey! He gets the joke......I think
@@davidm2031 I didn’t see a joke
I'm starting to think Daeron was made up by Maester Munkun
Neurodiversity moment
Gliddy has just unlocked the "GRRM" level in his Procrastination Skill Tree.
I'm so proud of him.
We should add an additional multiplier for 'real world' combat experience. In addition to the massive size advantage of Vhegar there are also all those years of flash broiling Dorne to consider. Of course the Cannibal committing actual dragon-on-dragon violence probably needs a few extra side ticks as well.
And Caraxes (& in the show, Seasmoke) also has veteran battle-dragon status- not just the War in the Stepstones as in the show, but earlier conflict^ -- size is an issue of advantage, but the Blacks have *more* combat experience dragons; Vermithor, though unclaimed currently- has been ridden in battle^
Vhagar may be the biggest, oldest, & most experienced in combat -- but I believe the war will illustrate that there are battles that won't be won solely on that fact...
Realistically I don’t think size doesn’t even matter too much. If Meleys is supposedly the fastest dragon, and Caraxes also seems faster and more nimble than Vhagar then I don’t see Vhagar having a good chance in a 2 v 1.
In the air weight doesn’t matter so much and both Meleys and Caraxes could seriously injure/kill Vhagar if the angle of attack is right. And the faster/ more nimble dragons would probably have an easier time dictating the angle of attack.
It probably boils down to a dragon on dragon dog fight where the situation and positioning would matter more than size.
There a countless videos of falcons completely destroying birds like albatrosses multiple times their size.
@ld8607 older bigger dragons have hotter fire and are more resistant to fire.
It's a massive advantage.
@@ld8607in the book, the fight opposing Vhagar, Sunfyre and Meleys was much different than in the show: it ended up in a 'dance', where the dragons stopped listening to their riders and were all over each other clenching their claws with one another, biting, thrashing and tearing apart until they all started to fall dragging each other down. The crash was so powerful that it made windows break and walls collapse even miles away. Meleys died on the spot, Sunfyre came out so gravely injured that it was unable to fly and had to be left there crawling around the battlefield, while Vhagar was basically unscathed and could fly right back. Honestly she isn't getting a slight burn from their fire in the first place, and she's too big with a much too thick hide to be taken down by chip damage or even significantly injured when she came out of this with no apparent damage. They could probably kill her, but it's very unlikely that any of them would survive the fight-which *could* be a fair trade for the Blacks if it didn't include sacrificing Daemon in the process
@@mattb.7079 I know how it was in the books. I’m just talking about how dragon on dragon “aerial combat“ would realistically turn out. However in the books sunfire and Meleys are fighting when Vhagar comes from above, keeping in mind that the books have an unreliable narrator, I think it’s telling that the dragon coming from above was unharmed whereas the other two where dead or seriously wounded. Even the book hints at the angle of attack being decisive in that way.
I’d say Dreamfyre is equal to Meleys. She’s described as not bred for war, with a slender frame. During the black council they say “and ours are larger except for Vhagar for dragons grow best on Dragonstone”. Only Vhagar is bigger than the blacks dragons, not Dreamfyre. She must be the size of Meleys and Caraxes despite their 30 year age gap. She’s a notorious egg layer that has been chained in the pit longer than any other dragon. We also know that both Vermithor and Silverwing surpassed her in size despite being hatched around a decade later.
Sunfyre wasn’t a cradle egg. He was claimed by Aegon on Dragonstones volcano which suggest he was already at a riding size. He had to have been at least a decade old when Aegon claimed him. Meaning he could potentially be Syrax’s size. It would be a nice parallel to make Syrax and Sunfyre brother and sister.
I think syrax and sunfyre hatched from Silverwing's eggs, both of them look similar in shape especially the tails.
@@arslanakhter3034it won’t surprise me
I just got this vision of Dreamfyre looking bored in the Dragonpit and just popping out eggs to stay amused.
Thank god, I was in dire need of autistic dragon maths.
I cheered when you gave cannibal a 10. My precious grumpy boy
Yes... that is what I would call a maniac cannibal as well...
He was just hungry
"that was fun but actually i wanna be a bit more thorough with that" is my ND catchphrase
Reminds me of my conceit that no matter what you write, eventually you'll end up at shonen anime. Here we are, powerscaling
at the heart of every story is goku powering up to punch a lizard-guy really hard in the face
This is probably what I sound like when I take half an hour to explain to my friends (who know nothing about asoiaf) why Lancel could be the valonqar based on my knowledge of High Valyrian
Balerion gets the Azula Rule of Cool bonus point for having unusually coloured flames and thus was 11
What colour were his flames?
@@aria1347 Black as he was
@@RmsOceanic That's cold af. I would love to see dragon flames like that on-screen one day
@@aria1347 Well they're contemplating a series about the conquest so fingers crossed.
@@RmsOceanic That's true!! Exciting times
Don't we get told Vermithor is second biggest (> Silverwing and Dreamfyre) ..'...only Balerion and Vhagar were larger'; and that Dreamfyre is 'slender'?
We do
Yes, and tbh the show’s not consistent by its own rules nor accurate to the source. Syrax is supposed to be ‘huge and formidable’ but has barely grow since ep 1, while Sunfyre looks to be significantly larger than her already in the trailers. The Black dragons should have boosted growth due to presumably being free roam on Dragonstone for 6 years while Dreamfyre and Sunfyre should be growing slower being kept in the dragonpit.
@@3MB4RVermithor has been stated to be the largest and OLDEST dragon after Vhagar in regards to show canon. On his description on the officiall HBO companion Guide for HotD and by his designer, Constantine Sekeris. And based on what we see of him in S2 trailer and at the end of eps 10 of S1, he is fairly huge. And can't be pushing less than 70% the size of Vhagar.
@@agrimmeon9308Why are you telling me this? I’ve already agreed that Vermithor’s been said to be the second biggest?
@@agrimmeon9308 The best part about this is, that it's a mistake, because Dreamfyre is at least 2 years older, Glyndayne had a math error there. But it's reasonable that Vermithor is bigger given the fact that Dreamyfre was ridden less, spend more time chained in the dragonpit and layed a ton of eggs.
The math: Dreamfyre bonded to Rhaena in 32AC, Vermithors egg was given to Jaehaerys in his cradle by Rhaena in 34AC.
If it makes you feel any better Glimbus I think it’s canonical that dragons have irregular growth rates from individual to individual.
Iirc in Fire and Blood they mention that Vhagar is actually smaller than Merexas at the time of the conquest despite being a bit older.
Vermathor’s size also kind of defies explanation. He’s not the oldest post conquest dragon, but by the time of the dance he is consistently described as the second largest after Vhagar. No such similar distinction is made for the similarly aged Silverwing, or Dreamfyre and he seems to have attained this size in spite of likely spending a fair amount of time held in some form of captivity.
TLDR: dragon growth rates seem to defy most rational explanations or categorization.
We don't have as much written about Vermathor but he can probably be compared to Dany's dragons and especially Drogon who grows even by the standard of other fast growing dragons extremely quickly
Dragons do not exist😢
@@thedelacruz say it isn’t so 😱
Its probably based on several factors: age, diet and riders.
A dragon that is ridden by a warrior who takes them into battle regularly and feasts on the best meats is likely going to get bigger then one who is used primarily for transport only.
Might also explain Dany's dragons later on - they are used for combat very early into their lives and actually get to eat people. Drogon becomes the biggest because he got to roam freely, gorging on whatever he wanted, while his brothers (siblings? Dragon gender is a bit vague sometimes) were chained down and only ate what they were given until being freed. Presumably once at Dragonstone they hunted extensively, rapidly becoming giant. By the time they went to the North they were all vastly larger then Drogon was when Dany first started riding him, rivalling the size of the old dragons of the past despite only being a few years old.
Oh, and they are magic made flesh. So logic doesn't need to apply.
No they don't. Vhagar and Meraxes are never compared in age. All the books state that the two dragons were younger than Balerion and hatched on Dragonstone. There is nothing else. I don't understand where you people draw these conclusions from? Certainly you don't think older dragons goes to older siblings? There are multiple contradictions to that. Vhagar was alive over 20 years before Visenya was born, as Vhagar was directly stated to be 181 when she died, meaning she was born in 51 -52 BC. Visenya was 27 at the start of the Conquest in 2 BC.
Dreamfyre was claimed as a hatchling by a 9 year old Rhaena, and ridden by her 3 years later in 34 AC when Rhaena was 12, the same year Jaehaerys was born and she supposedly gave Vermithor's egg to him. That's a 3 - 4 year minimum age gap between Vermithor and Dreamfyre. That is an absolutely insignificant amount of time compared to a dragons 200 + year life span. On top of that, even though she was active while Rhaena was alive, Dreamfyre spent around 47 years in the Dragonpit after she died. Vermithor was directly stated to have been kept at the Red Keep with Silverwing, with no statement on whether or not they were chained, and then lived on Dragonstone for 27 years. Its not unbelievable whatsoever that he could've been larger than her. Drogon was larger than Viserion and Rhaegal as babies, in GoT and the books, yet they were literally all born at the same time.
“This is a logarithmic function.” Whatever you say buddy 😭🙏
Me when the dragon show guy establishes a Serizawa-scale for draconic magnitude analytics:
Stormcloud erasure
You deserve a reply after 4 days. Stand proud Quinn, you're Game master. Love the vids btw.
Laying eggs and the dragonpit has done a number on poor Dreamfyre
Fun fact: Cannibal was actually killed in the shadowlands beyond Ashai by the most powerful dragon to ever stalk the sky’s. Surpassing my leaps and bounds those great Valyrian dragons which made Balerion look like a kitten, the drake know simply as “Math Dragon” is the true power of asoiaf
Was that in Fire and Blood, because I don't remember it?
Putting Tyraxes one-to-one with Vhagar is literally Coughing Baby vs Hydrogen Bomb powerscaling.
15 seconds of a guy saying something slightly incorrect = 20 minute video quantifying the ages of made of creatures.
I'm so proud of my fellow autistics.
and after reading all these comments i'm pretty determined to make a follow-up to set the record straight
This just makes me sit and ponder the dynamic between Targaryens who end up inheriting an adult dragon vs. those who hatch a cradle egg. Cause you could say that at the start of the war, at least, it’s a clean divide with the Greens having inherited dragons, and the Blacks having cradle eggs (I’m sure there’s a metaphor here I just can’t think of it now). And I’m thinking of the pros and cons associated with cradle eggs wherein it’s probably safer than the ‘walk up and say hi’ option, but it leaves that given Targaryen tied to a dragon much weaker than those older than it.
But also I can’t imagine certain characters not having at least a cradle egg, but still somehow reaching adulthood with no dragon. Alicent’s kids have the excuse at least of Viserys not caring and Alicent not really being connected to the whole dragon ritual stuff. But there’s also instances like Maegor refusing to bond with a dragon until Balerion became riderless again, which, yeah on brand but it is weird that besides Quicksilver and later Dreamfyre there’s a whole zilch in terms of dragons post Conquest.
It could just be that the tag team of weird dragon fans in Rhaenyra and Daemon explain the pre-Dance dragon boom. At least in the show Daemon is playing an active effort in the tending and cultivation of dragons, and Rhaenyra is making a point of all her kids having one.
Given there were only three (four if you include one that eats other dragons) dragons at the Conquest, and dragons don’t really have genders, we have to presume that the eggs come from Balerion, Meraxys, and Vhagar. Thinking on it I bet that part of the weird sibling incest stuff the Targaryens do is connected to dragon interbreeding, where however they do it the inbreeding risk is not a factor. Now here’s a question: if left in the wild will dragon eggs hatch on their own? The aftermath of the Dance says no, but Cannibal’s kill counts say yes. I bring this up to ask how important the presence of a Valyrian descendent is to the whole hatching process.
I need to stop here the autistic dragon math has led to autistic dragon biology.
. Vhagar - Directly stated to be 181 years old at her death and the largest living dragon in the known world after Balerions death
. Vermithor - Supposedly hatched in Jaehaerys crib in 34 - 35 Ac, 95 - 96 years old, and directl stated to be the largest dragon after Vhagar and Balerion in book canon and the largest and oldest dragon after Vhagar in show canon. Nearly the size of Vhagar according to HotDs dragon designers.
. Dreamfyre - Claimed by Rhaena as a hatchling in 32 AC, making her roughly 98 years old. Described as slender. Smaller tham Vermithor.
. Silverwing - Supposedly hatched in Alyssanes cradle in 36 - 37 AC, meaning shes 93 - 94 years old. Described as slender
. The Cannibal - Older than Sheepstealer but not larger than Balerion (208+), Vhagar (181), and Vermithor (95+)
. Sheepstealer - Stated to be smaller than Cannibal but larger than Grey Ghost. Hatched when the old king was young meaning between 34 AC - 54 AC. Makes him 95 - 76 years old.
. Caraxes - Claimed as a young dragon by Aemon Targaryen in 72 AC. Half the size of Vhagar. 57 + years old
. Meleys - Claimed as a young ridable dragon by Alyssa in 74 AC. Swifter than Vhagar and Caraxes, and potential contender of the former. 55 + years old
. Syrax - Hatched to Rhaenyra in show canon accordomg to Ryan Condal making her 34 - 35 years old.
. Seasmoke - Of a comparable size to Syrax in HotD, slightly larger as of S2.
. Sunfyre - As of S2 trailers, comparable in body size to Syrax with a more slender frame and larger wings. Claimed by Aegon as a hatchling from the Dragonmount in the books
. Tessarion - 1/3rd the size of Vermithor in the books. Whether claimed by or hatched to Daeron is unknown.
. Grey Ghost - Smaller than Cannibal and Sheepstealer. Killed by Sunfyre. Hatch date unknown.
. Vermax - Hatched to Jace. 15 - 16 years old.
. Moondancer - Hatched to Baela in show canon. 15 - 16 years old.
. Arrax - Hatched to Luke. 14 years old.
. Tyraxes - Hatched to Joffrey. 5 - 6 years old in show canon.
Idk why he was underselling Vermithor and over selling Dreamfyre
A few notes:
With the changed timeline Vhagar, Vermithor, Dreamfyre and SIlverwing all would be at least 2 years older, since the Dance takes place in 132 AC in the show.
Vermithor being called the second oldest is a mistake by Gyldayn. We know that Dreamfyre is at least 2 years older as she had bonded with Rhaena in 32AC and Jaehaerys was born in 34AC, which is reflective in your own notes up there. And that mistake isn't from HOTD, it's from Fire and Blood, but it probably got carried over.
I could not find a source stating that Sheepstealer is bigger than Grey Ghost (or smaller for that matter), is this from HOTD behind the scenes?
@@TemariNaraannaschatzGreat points, people always make the mistake saying Vermithor is second oldest because he was second largest (among the tamed dragons) but it was Rhaena, rider of Dreamfyre, who placed the egg in the old kings cradle. I remember Sheepstealer was born during the old kings early days, so they’re close in age to Maelys? And Grey ghosts interaction with Sunfyre kinda gives off the theory that he his likely smaller…
I think a problem with some of this math is that baselining Vhagar at 10 and only giving yourself 9 other figures for the other dragons is probably underselling Vhagar unless the gaps between numbers is exponential. She's old and sort of dont give a fuck, but she's unstoppable on a mission.
I do clarify later on that the figures are logarhythmic
@@glimbus so 10 billion tyraxes is equal to single vhagar? Inflation is crazy
If you're adding them up, having exponential gaps doesn't make sense. Just make it out of a scale of 100 to have representative gaps.
Decimals would make this so much easier. If Syrax is a 6 and Sunfyre is a 5, Seasmoke should be a 5.5 on the dragon scale.
I learned from the movie Ravenous that cannibalism grants you your victim's power, so makes sense that Cannibal is a 10.
I hate how much sense this all made to me and how much joy it brought me
I understand that this was going off of ages, but I do think Dreamfyre could be lower than Vermithor. Vermithor was known as the Bronze Fury, whereas I can't think of Dreamfyre having done anything particularly aggressive.
But then, in HOTD she looks massive to me. Perspective is really off in that one shot of her.
I'd put Vermithor and Cannibal at 9, and Rhaegal and Viserion below Drogon, but I'm not sure the GOT show dragons can be measured on the same scale as the HOTD dragons.
I imagine vhagar as a veteran of the boer war, WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, the gulf war, and now is fighting China
sunfyre and tessarion are both bigger and older than any of the blacks kids dragons because they aren’t cradle egss. they were both born on dragonstone and were already “young” dragons when aegon and daeron were born. love you glimbog x
To be honest, I'd be willing to but Vermithor at a 10. Think about it. I'm almost possitive that we are told Vermy is the second largest dragon at this point, and any size charts that you look up also show him as being larger than Dreamfyre. He's almost as large as Vhagar, but is about half Vhagar's age. We can see that Vhagar is a bit sluggish given how old she is, and we haven't seen much of how Vermy moves in the show (Yes I've read the books and know what happenes, I'm just going by the show's logic so far). So I think for once, Vermithor's younger age would actually be a fight. Just my thoughts though.
From what I understand it, Vermithor is big, and strong, but he's not THAT big.
What sets him apart is being utterly insane and very violent and aggressive. Enough that it does make up for him not being too large.
@@thaneofwhiterun3562 why is he insane? I cant remember that. I know he is called "the bronze Fury" but was there ever elaborated why, except for his huge size?
@@jakobschoning7355 Because he was the dragon of a king for like 60 years I think, it's a big, strong, healthy, dominant and powerful dragon.
Like a little piece of the more violent side of ol' King Joe maybe.
@@thaneofwhiterun3562ok, but that doesn't explain why he would be 'insane'?
@@thomaswillard6267 Idk, he's just angry all the time. That qualifies as nuts to me.
If we’re taking the events of the war into account, Sunfyre should be a damn 7-9 considering how aggressive and competent he is in battle, and his bond with Aegon being the strongest dragonbond of the age…Sunfyre had a dawg in him the size of Balerion.
So that's how you craft your Bliss takes: math streaming!
I lost it at "this should be logarithmic though"💀
If it is an age list, then it's correct.
As a power rating definitely not, Hotd showcases (much better than Got) that dragons are different, they have different shapes, qualities, growth rates.
I mostly disagree on putting dreamfyre so high and caraxes so low, as caraxes was thought litterary from birth to be aggressively bloodthirsty, and an incredible fighter, which is proven later with taking down vhagar, dying about an hour later, all the while being half the size.
And dreamfyre, while old just isn't that powerful, she's described as slender and fast instead of fierce and big.
Vhagar, Caraxes and Vermithor are the strongest Dragons at the time and while most of the people in the show think vhagar is the greatest weapon, caraxes is not that far behind.
17:10 "*maniacal laughter* so much for a short stream" LOL
High quality dragon content
Alicent may have not fully understood how bonding a dragon works, and only remembers her own children taking time to bond an unclaimed dragon.
Wow, you have really been feeding us the past few days! Many thanks, Gloodge
I swear if Cannibal never shows up in this series, it's going to be so confusing why he's mentioned so much in Fire and Blood and the World of Ice and Fire. My theory is that he has to be on Skagos because GRRM specifically writes that Cannibal went North. It also gives Jon a dragon very early on, without having to wait for Daenerys to finally show up. It gives Young Griff a dragon, further complicating the truth about his parentage. And it gives a spare dragon to kill off at some point in the story, which would probably be Rhaegal, as it makes sense that the dragons die in the order that the people they are named after die.
this will tide me over till the new episode of the fridge
"Seasmoke was born to Laenor" is Laenor...like...his mom??? 😂
Kinda 😅 considering that they put the eggs in bed with them, it is a little like a brooding chicken, I guess
wish i could double like a video, that just scratched a part of my brain I didnt know existed
Loved it! A really good laugh and I appreciate how much time and editing it must have taken you.😁
Great analysis of their size. The only discrepancy is that vermithor is outright stated to be the second largest during the dance
Im still waiting for HOTD Review Helena. Screw the autistic dragon maths I need my autistic princess recognized! #Justice4Helena
Morghul and Shrykos are also there for the greens but they almost don’t count
They don't count, neither does Stormcloud as none of them were ridable yet. And of course they were bonded to small children who couldn't be used in warfare.
They would be a 1
Yooo Glidus was mentioned on GRRM’s not a blog? I just checked it and had to do a double take when seeing your name and Alt Shift X lmaooo. What a world.
Have you got a link to that post?
@@guerreiroazul3230 just look up grrm’s not a blog, it’s his latest post
For some reason it just occurred to me that all Alicent’s kids are dragon riders
And only 2 really matter. Poor Haelena doesn't do much with hers. Maybe just swaps prophetic dreams with one another lol.
@@jessjess23brooks89Daeron???
@@Nosyboy_huh on yeah. Well since Alicent forgot about him, I guess I did too lolol
love the vid, only problem is you forgot to factor in that caraxes is part giraffe
i will address this in my follow-up
Looks like a proper estimate of the lizard's IQ.
I think the dragons can safely be divided into “generations”
The first Generation is Balarion.
The second is Vahgar and Maraxes.
The third is Cannibal, Dreamfyre, Vermithor, and Silverwing.
The fourth is Caraxes, Sheepstealer and Melys.
The fifth is Syrax, Sunfire, and Seasmoke.
The sixth is Vermax, Tyrax, Moondancer, Grey Ghost, and Tessarion.
If every single last Sixth Generation dragon tried to attack Vahgar, they would all die.
Coulda watched a full hour of this honestly
No love for the pink dread?
LOGARITHMIC DRAGON SCALING
Is it possible to see the VODs anywhere?
not at this time
I don’t think people realize that tessarion and sunfyre arent cradle eggs and are much older than glidus thinks. Especially since Daeron was born in the same year as Jace.
My thing with Dreamfyre is that we actually don't really know if she's older than Vermithor.
We know that Vermithor hatched when Jaehaerys was a babe in the cradle, because Rhaena put the egg into it. But noone did this for Rhaena, so she might've hatched Dreamfyre when she was older, maybe even after Vermithor was hatched.
The other thing is that Dreamfyre wasn't a battle dragon, and she basically spent most of her life in the Dragonpit, whereas Vermithor fought even beyond the wall.
If we assume that the dragon in the pit in ep 6 is Dreamfyre, she actually seems to be much smaller than Vermithor.
So I would say that 9 for Vermithor and 8 for Dreamfyre is fair game
Nice to see you two collaborate.
Good video. I know the focus was merely the dragons' ages and correlated size, but a big argument in the book about dragon "viability" is not only their size but their (and their rider's) fighting prowess. Vhagar and Caraxes have known the most battle in their lives. Dreamfyre, despite being older and relatively large, is ridden by Helaena, who is not much of a rider or warrior, so she is less of a factor when considering the two sides' arsenals.
Vhagar vs vermax, arrax, tyraxes, moondancer is the equivalent of nuclear bomb vs coughing baby
Thank you for pointing out that Dreamfyre should be way bigger, she is older than Vermithor!!! I want to see a huge, saggy blue dragon please
New dragon math based on S2:
Green:
Vhagar (10)
Dreamfyre (7) Heleana debuff
Sunfyre (6) 🫥 Aegon debuff
Tessarion (6)
Black:
Vermithor (9)
Caraxes (8), Daemon buff
Meleys(8) 🫥
Silverwing (8)
Sheepstealer (7)
Seasmoke (7)
Cyrax (6)
Vermax (4)
Moondancer (3)
Glimbus, it's 9:37AM in the US Eastern Time Zone -- go to bed, dude
He's from Australia
there are countries other than the us
Hotpie is the shrouded lord!!!!
Theory CONFIRMED 😮💨
My speakers broke so I had to watch this on mute and just guess what you're talking about, and I'm gonna be honest, I don't agree that Vhagar is the most fuckable dragon, she is simply too old to be a 10.
Lost it at „this could solve the seasmoke issue“. Said like a true mathematician 😂
"she's not the oldest dragon around"
the only dragon older than her is vhagar.
You just forget one factor: The dragonpit/enclosure time.
Syrax is 15y +~- older than Sunfyre, but she was kept so much time coiling, under the dragonmount/pit and not being taken for a fly for Rhaenyra that she became not as big as she should be.
This is stated in the books, if i'm well remembered, although she was still "huge and formidable". Seasmoke is probably bigger, and battle-hardened.
I should suffice that for some reason, Sunfyre suffered a Dany's dragons growth in a year spam (Which probably was caused due to eating dragon meat)
Dreamfyre is pretty old, yes, but she was kept for too much time in the Dragonpit and did not see battle for a long time. Vermithor is specifically said to be the second largest dragon in the Dance.
Also, Drogon after his season 7 protein shake is roughly the same size of Caraxes.
Caraxes is a little bit longer and takes a small edge, but Drogon is far more muscular. He's close to Meleys.
So...
Sunfyre (5)
Caraxes (8)
Meleys (8)
Vermithor (9 or 10)
Silverwing (8 or 9)
Syrax (5 or 6)
Seasmoke (5 or 6)
Drogon (8)
I think the Strong bois dragons should all be 1 up, if we count Stormcloud (Aegon the Younger's dragon) the (1) size dragon.
I'm gonna ask my sister if her Doctorate in Mathematics/Statistics included a unit on Autism Dragon Numbers because frankly it should.
(Melbourne University offered "Politics of Eurovision" unit so I wouldn't be surprised)
i took my fair share of silly subjects while i was there and they were all great fun :)
This comment will be spoiling the fuck out of the books so beware:
Okay, so first thing we need to take into account is the fact how many of the dragons Rhaenyra actually meant to send to a war. She didn't wanted for her kids to take part in combat and more importantly - she didn't wanted *herself* to take part in combat. If you'll look closely, Rhaenyra actively avoided any fight. Whether it was due to her health complications, the fact that she wasn't a soldier or simple cowardice it doesn't matter. Rhaenyra and Syrax - they don't exist unless the things get to the last stand. Baela obviously is also taken out of the account as she didn't partook in any of the fighting.
So Black have umm... Caraxes. That's it. That's the entire Black arsenal they can willingly throw into battle. One dragon that is at best 70 years old. And that's against Vhagar (the oldest living dragon) and Dreamfyre (second oldest living dragon). Helaena got taken out of the war due to Daemon's utter cruelty, but nobody knew that at the time. At best they could count on the fact that she's not a soldier so she wouldn't be fighting. But truth to be told Dreamfyre would do all fighting for her. That dragon was absolutely massive. And they obviously knew that Daeron and Aegon would take part in the fighting themselves.
So without Rhaenys Blacks have 1 dragon versus Green 3-4 dragons. That's a dragon math for him. Honestly it's actually a pretty big plothole that after Rook's Rest Aemond didn't just zoomed to Dragonstone and ended the war right there, as his only opposition would be one civilian after troublesome labour that can't or won't take part in the fighting and a teenager on shrimp-sized dragon.
when you said "this should be logarithmic" i knew this was kino
GLIMBUS GLIMBUS GLIMBUS
Even though he'll never be ridden I'm hyped to see even a glimpse of the cannibal in the T.V show
I feel like whe should put an * next to Dreamfyre cause i dont think there was ever any intention of Halena using it in battle. It seems like no one ever brings it up?
That's exactly what I was thinking, and no one in the show seems to be considering that. Maybe Dreamfyre would fly with Vhagar without Helaena, but she also might not. An asterisk is definately needed
This needs an update
Its their dragon effectiveness rating score it makes perfect sense! Quick wyrm maffs🐉
How about doing a graph showing a timeline of the targaryn kings going up or down based on the stability of the realm, how well off the targs were and how good a person they were?
Its not all about size though but battle experience, the skill of the rider and the bond with the rider should be accounted for. Dreamfyre has never been in battle but is more of a breeding dragon compared to the only slightly younger Vermithor who has fought in several wars. Same with Syrax and Seasmoke. Also we have Daemon who is probably the most skilled rider with a powerful bond to Caraxes.
Best way to learn Maths
You did qhorin halfhand dirty
Glimbort a more accurate ranking would be
Greens.
Vhagar 12/10 (cuz 181 year old)
Dreamfyre 9/10 (cuz at least 100 years old)
Sunfyre 5/10 (same age range as auras but slightly younger)
Tessarion 4/10 ( a generation younger than sunfyre, especially since she was large enough to contend with sea smoke)
Blacks
Caraxes 7/10
Syrax 6/10
Maelys 7/10
Seasmoke 5/10 (maybe 6/10)
Moon dancer 1-2/10
Arrax 1-2/10
Vermax 1-2/10
Tyrraxes 1-2/10
Stormcloud 1/10
Vermithor 9/10 (cuz like 98 years old)
Silverwing 9/10 (same as Vermithor but a year less)
Sheepstealer 8/10 (cuz a gen younger than Vermithor)
I think that’s all of them but obviously some switch sides so yee
But with all that said, when it really actually comes down to it, Caraxes MVP.
I cant believe you didnt add the scores together for us
They’re also discounting in show cannon how knowledgeable Alicent is probably is of dragons. Friends and lesson with Rhaenyra as well as listening to Viserys yapping sessions about Valyria
Has glimby changed from the ridiculous take that dreamfyre looks small in that clip yet or do you reckon another year will do it?
Id also factor in the rider too. A experienced / badass rider on a smaller dragon has a chance against a bigger dragon with a crap rider
WE WANT VODS! WE NEED VODS!
Glido, when are you gonna propose to me? We have so much in common, ya know? We love ASOIAF, dragons, trees, and I’m even a part-time RUclipsr/loser like you. As someone who has a ton of life experience and who has done a lot of matchmaker quizzes and relationship research on google, I’m pretty much an expert now. And although my therapist doesn’t agree with me on this, I’m certain that the attributes I listed above are all you need to have a guaranteed successful relationship. My sources: Just trust me, bro.
I’m just kidding of course.
Kinda.
Serious vibe with sperging out about dragon inaccuracies 🎵🎶🎵🎶
I wouldn’t have Caraxes at 7 if I’m being honest, considering how the Aemond vs Daemon battle goes. Dreamfyre being smaller than her age suggests would make sense if all she does is sit in the dragon pit all day.
From now on, this will be my mental image of Septon Barth doing dragon research (old King Joe wanted a tier-list bro)
With the hindsight of season 2 it’s a pretty accurate statement that vhagar alone stronger than all of team black’s dragons combined considering Daemon only thought he could take Vhagar with Caraxes and Melys
wait until you have the hindsight of the entire story (dont worry i wont spoil)
Does Dreamfyre really count for a war though? I haven't read the book but I can NOT see Heleana going to war at all, let alone on dragonback.
Vermithor is definitely a 9 because of age, size, ferocity and battle experience. Caraxes not being an 8 is criminal. People can underestimate hiw much an advantage a serpentine neck is
I am biased towards Team Black but Vhagar is my favorite dragon of all time. She is just an old senile nuclear bomb that flies around with holes in her wing. Yes team black might have more dragons but only Caraxes has been in combat before. Vhagar literally helped subjugate the seven kingdoms.
where can i watch this vod???
nowhere (yet)
i love this so much
pwetty pwease do a full analysis after S2 comes out of dragon math
:)