On Writing: Redemption Arcs!
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- Опубликовано: 16 окт 2024
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Please make a video about How to Train your dragon sequel about Hiccup's children?
Death = redemption is not always the case?
Good thing my guy lives by the saying live to fight another day, has some hidden foreshadowing very early on, becomes a somewhat totalitarian but unfit leader and the question becomes him or the only family he has left.
Hey Tim, could you please do a video on how to make a good falling hero story? I feel like a lot of writers don't do it well.
You know, I really think you would enjoy the Skulduggery Pleasant series, as it includes drastic character growth, great foreshadowing, redemption and great symbolism. I wrote my A-level English on this series, and found that there is a lot under the surface of an honestly enjoyable series.
But what if the failed redemption arc is used to push and develop other characters.
Now it's not the best example but a redemption arc for a villain can exist alongside a protagonist who is passive or merciful and who might constantly risk things on the idea that everyone can be redeemed
The failed redemption arc is used to develop and change that protagonist.
Would it still lose the tension
I like to think Zuko got treated well in the Earth Kingdom because of his burned face that he got attacked by a fire bender soldier.
More than a hundred likes yet no comments, who hurt you?
@@quatzar7262 I guess everyone synonymously agrees, a part of the lore that would make sense
@@quatzar7262 there's nothing to discuss
The text strongly implies that. At least twice it gets brought up that way.
I guess that they felt sympathy for him, because, to them, his burn mark was a sure sign that he was on their side and had been hurt by the fire nation?
“Anakin arguably only cares when his actions hurt someone that he cares about”
That’s arguably his most prominent character trait all the way back to Clone Wars
He's intensely passionate and loyal, he'd murder everyone in the galaxy if it meant he could keep his loved ones safe
@@felixlara2945 he literally did that except for the last bit
Snape is also like this
I love when Zuko's arc comes full circle. Asking Iroh's forgiveness. That part made me cry: "I was never angry with you. I was sad because you had lost your way."
Iroh is a masterpiece of a man tbh.
Iroh is my favorite character from the show I never really understood his character until I learned how he went from a absolutely powerhouse that almost captured the most secure city in that universe ba sing se (can’t remember how to spell it) to a man who lost his son and that’s where his own redemption arc started to ending it with him taking care of zuko and basically replacing his horrible father after his banishment to becoming a wise and merciful old man who was still a absolutely beast of a fire bender that fans love
oh heck you made me cry :(
@@StarlitWitchy sorry. :(
@@CrazyGamebino I keep saying that if they ever make a prequel they should do Iroh, and how he became the wise senior member of the white lotus.
"Are you challenging me to a Zuko-free vid on redemption arcs?"
"Yes! I challenge you!"
"No thanks."
Nice reference
Good one!
My favorite thing is to give an answer of flat out denial to people who believe themselves utterly in the position of power!
Azula vs Zuko The Crossroads of Destiny
*Challenge:* Redemption Arc without mentioning Zuko
*Tim:* _CHALLENGE __-ACCEPTED-__ NOT ACCEPTED_
CHALLANGE REJECTED!!
Honestly, why would you even ask this?
Zuko is literally the *definition* of a redemption arc.
Challenge *IMPOSSIBLE*
Zuko is the poster boy of redemption arcs!
A WIZARD DID IT
Zuko's story arch symmetry: going from trying to capture the Avatar to please his father to helping the Avatar defeat his father. Going from boasting in his nobility to wondering if he's worthy with all of the mistakes he's made; going from trampling over others to get what he wants to putting others' needs before his own. Ultimately, he didn't need to die in order to complete his story arch, but rather he needed to live to redeem his nation.
He also goes from trying to redeem himself in the eyes of someone who hurt him to seeking it from those who he had hurt.
and from searching for team avatar alongside his uncle to searching for his uncle alongside team avatar
Patron: Dont mention Zuko
Hello future me: No, I dont think I will
"No, I don't think I... _won't!"_
cade, will you please not write no i dont think i will in your comment.
cade: no, i dont think i will
I understood that reference
@@MrKingYuji ah yes, double reference
Hello Future Me : How 'bout I do anyway?
I'd like to talk about Iroh as a reversal of this trope. He has already completed his redemption arch and his "change", but we only learn this further in. Iroh shows how redemption affects you long term, how it is a continuous choice. About reconciliation and accountability. It mirrors Zuko's arch beautifully. Zuko is just starting his path of redemption, while Iroh has already completed it and shows what Zuko's future could look like. At the same time, Zuko is part of Iroh's reconciliation, his way of trying to do good and to give back. To make up for the mistakes of his past, specifically the son he could not save. This gives both characters more weight and Zuko's arch more impact. It also recontextualizes what we knew about Iroh. It makes the silly old man and all his seemingly whimsical actions much more important, because the viewer comes to see them as a deliberate choice, a rejection of his past self. I feel like this is not as often explored as the journey of change, how redemption affects your life long term, that it requires commitment and lifelong dedication. Pairing these two characters, who are at different points of the same path, is beautifully done.
That is an excellent point!
You're right.
I think he’s always been a jokester though, agree with everything else though.
WHY AM I SO BAD AT BEING GOOD?!
I won’t be the one breaking this 100-like perfection
@@seaemji8591 Oh,but I will.
Such a fantastic quote.
“You’re good at being baaaaaaaaaaad, you’re bad at being goooooooooooood...” *-Andre 3000*
I can literally hear this.
Can you do the opposite in the next video? On writing: Decline to Villainy. Examples: walter white, light (death note), louis (nightcrawler), 2 face (the dark knight), robert and alfred (the prestige), etc.
Yes, please. This trope can also lead to the ever great Tragic Villain trope.
I definitely go for this one, no doubt it could make an interesting video.
But Light is the good guy in Death Note.
Seriously, it is explicitly stated that crime declined by 70% globally and all wars stopped because of how he used the Death Note. And the only argument Near had against him in his monologue at the series' end was if I recall correctly more or less "No one should be able to sentence others to death". However, by stopping Kira he in fact sentences hundreds of thousands if not millions of people death as crime and war returns, making him hypocritical as there is no way more people than that were being killed with the Note. Yes, Light would've inevitably killed innocents, but way more die from crime and war so that argument against him makes no sense.
Don’t forget Anakin to Darth Vader.
@@tuukkai1841 How you do something is just as important to the morals of the situation as what it is you are attempting to do. Yes he brings order and security to the world with a decline in crime but is doing so by essentially holding a gun to everyone in the world after proving how trigger happy he is. That's what dictators do.
Me: We haven't seen *A WIZARD DID IT* in a while
Tim:
That one is ny favorite. I love the gif with the music
A wizard did it!!!
Pa papapa papa
Pa papapa papa
Pa papapa papa
@@ollie2111 It's on RUclips if you want to see it.
Epic Sax Gandolf.
And why haven't we seen it?
*A WIZARD DID IT*
DOO
Lol
One thing about Vader’s sacrifice that I always loved was the idea that his motivation in the prequels is to stop people from dying, going to serving under Palpatine who was obsessed with not dying, to finally keeping someone from dying, just by paying the ultimate price
This is the reason why I like prequels, they added so many layers to the original trilogy and weren't Black And White
Vader did not want to save as many people in the prequels, he did in the clone wars.
@@aarondeyoung6315 In episode 1 he wanted to free all the slaves.
@@aarondeyoung6315 Anakin literally told padme in episode 2 that he must become the strongest Jedi ever so he could safe everyone from dying. The whole fall of anakin was his endless pursuit of trying to save innocent people
After he helped Palpatine defeat Windu, he felt as if there was no turning back.
We see a brief moment between Vader and Ahsoka (SW: Rebels) where he offers her one chance to join him, just as he does Luke in Episode V.
His fears of Sideous, and his commitment to the Dark Side were what drove him to do the things he did as "There are some things far more frightening than death"
Patron: don't feature Zuko in the redemption arc video.
Tim: No.
Patron: *That wasn't very cash money of you*
Best comment of this video award goes to you
JMarchel Aw, thanks man.
Yes
"Talk about redemption arcs but you must exclude one of the best and most interesting examples ever written"
Why though?
People probably tired of hearing about it and want other examples brought up
i'm guessing since Zuko is a bit of a poster child for redemption arcs.
Thorfinn from Vinland Saga has a great redemption arc.
@@penaldotapinaldo1713 i love vinland saga
@@thenameless9947 same
13:38 "undoing character development simply for the sake of subverting your reader's expectations isn't satisfying writting" ..... As any GOT fan knows 😅🤣
i was gonna write a comment on that but you phrased it better than i could've
Thank you, thank you for speaking for us
@@xzxzojkeymtzxzx7712 in fact i'm not the first 😅😂
THANK YOU FOR ACKNOWLEDGING THE ABSOLUTE FUCKERY THEY DID TO JAIME IN JUST ONE EPISODE COMPLETELY UNDERMINED HIS CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT OF FIVE SEASONS!!!! Ughhh so mad
obsessive fangirl Read the Books they are wayyyy different than the show
The more I think about it, the more I realize that almost every character I can recall fits into this model... In ATLA alone, all the main characters, not just Zuko and Aang, are trying to redeem themselves in one way or the other and (loosely) fit the redemption arc. Examples:
*Katara*
Stakes: she wants justice/closure for the presumed death of her mother
View of self: as the last remaining waterbender in her tribe, she is lonely, angry, and without hope. She thinks she is too weak at waterbending to protect anyone or to seek out her mother.
View of world: cruel for taking her family from her. Resents her father for leaving.
Her view of herself changes by the end of book 1 as she has proven herself to be the (2nd) best waterbender in the north and capable of protecting her friends.
Her view of the world doesnt change much but she confronts her mother's kidnapper in book 3 with her Zuko sidetrip and somewhat gets closure on that; hence, her redemption arc comes to a close.
*Sokka*
Stakes: wants to fulfill his duty in protecting his family/friends/tribe.
View of self: early on, he is bullheaded and rushes into fights. Later, as a non-bender, he realizes he cannot always fight enemies directly.
View of world: kind of simplistic? Fire nation = bad. Benders = OP. Someone with more insight can reply on this...
Sokka's view of himself changes in book 1 when he meets Suki and her Kyoshi warriors. He realizes he has much to learn when it comes to fighting. He is humbled and more receptive to personal change. Over the series, his worldview on benders and his own limitations is confirmed, which forces him to be more of a tactician than outright fighter, best showcased by his training under his sword-master (can't remember his name). Even in the finale, the group follows his battle plan, and we even see Sokka briefly going toe-to-toe with amped up firebenders, defeating them through his wit. Sokka's redemption is in overcoming his limitations as a non-bender and still contributing to the save-the-day effort.
*Toph*
Stakes: wants to be seen as independent and self-reliant but is also lonely and wants companionship.
View of self: doesn't need friends and hates to rely on people
View of world: the world sees her as weak and helpless because she is blind. Believes people help her out of pity, not friendship.
Toph's self-view changes at first when she and Katara have their sidetrips in Ba Sing Se, and also when she meets Iroh on her solo venture. She realizes that conforming at times doesn't rob her of identity, that friendship has value, and accepting help doesn't make her weak. She redeems herself when she and Katara team up during their prison break.
Other examples abound: Admiral Zhao can be seen as a failed redemption (more like aborted maybe)... Mai redeems herself when she betrays Azula for Zuko. Hell even Iroh can be seen trying to make up for the Ba Sing Se siege when he retakes the city from the fire nation. Damn I wrote more than I meant to, but please lmk what you think. Is every character, in a way, seeking redemption? Do their changes in world/self-view mirror the lies they tell themselves?
That would be because how a character views themselves/the world is also intrinsically linked to normal character arcs, so parallels should be expected.
~ Tim
Katara's viene of the world does change.she starts as a naive Chile Who thinks the fire nation are almost born Evil. During the third season she realises that not every firebender is cruel, she starts to ser the complexity of the war and with jet, long Feng and ultimately Hama she realises that anybody IS capable of great Evil. By the end of the story, Katara has left the good/Evil = non fire nation/fire nation dogma and appreciates the complexities of morality and the fire nation.
@@alejandroojeda1572 you're right, guess I wrote too quickly
That's also goes well with her involvement in the final Agni Kai; she gained enough awarenes that Azula probably wasn't born evil and that, if Katara herself had lost herself in her rage she could have easily become like Azula.
You can still have character arcs and character development without them being about redemption. Redemption implies you have done something horrible in the past/had an immoral quest that you must redeem yourself from. Usually this means you have an “evil character” turning “good”, but as explained in the video it is not always the case. Your examples are more descriptions of regular character development using the trifecta of stakes, self, world that was discussed in the video.
Zuko+redemption+Hello Future me: instant click
14:25 This is what I feel happens with Iroh’s redemption arc in Avatar the Last Airbender. Iroh’s failure that begins him on his path of redemption is the loss of his son. The culmination of his redemption is when Iroh saves Zuko from being another victim of the Fire Nation philosophy, like his own son was.
He saves Zuko from being a victim and throws Azula under the bus.
@@Jack-kx5rf You should watch his video The Philosophy of Azula, because it's way more complicated than that, buddy.
Random appreciation comment time... Let's go!!!
I do not write. Like at all. Creative writing is my best mark in English pretty consistently, but I've never taken to it as a hobby. However, in the same way understanding music composition techniques has developed my love of music, your On Writing series has taken my appreciation of novels to another level. You haven't brought colour into my reading, you've given me eyes to see it with. The way you analyse and explain is so entertaining by itself that I would watch your videos even if they were about the culinary arts.
To top all of this off, you are one of the most likeable personalities on this platform, and your nerdiness is simply inspirational.
Long story short, you're awesome❤️
Awww thanks Gabriel! :D Made my night.
~ Tim
Why does this comment resonate with me so much?
I love you too for sharing my experience!
I too can't stop thinking of Atla 😔😢
It makes me cry how perfect it is and it touched me deeply in various ways 😔
@@HelloFutureMe I’m late but I want to thank you for the same reason. if you’re not the best You Tuber on this platform I don’t know who is. You’re amazing and if I were old enough I would totally be on your patreon.
“The failed redemption arc is often unsatisfying” *cough* Jaime Lannister *cough*
It wasn't a failed redemption arc. There was a completed redemption arc and then dumb and dumber dropped him back down without any build up. It was just bad writing
The redemption arc isn’t set to fail in the books - that’s what has to matter now.
Not really in the know for ASOIAF/GOT but did Jamie really need redemption? I get that a lot of people in-universe probably gave him shit for killing the man he was sworn to protect but wasn't Aerys Targaryen an omnicidal maniac when Jamie took him out? The way I see it, there's nothing about that he needs to make up for.
Avatar Eternal Eh, it’s complicated. One of the main themes in the books is appearance vs reality, so even if Jaime doesn’t, with the values of modern society, need redemption, people still think he needs some kind of comeuppance in-universe.
Also, he’s done generally awful things while being blinded by..eh..love for his family. The whole thing with Tyrion’s wife Tysha (more of a big deal in the book), pushing Bran, perpetuating war crimes in the lannister army...while Jaime doesn’t need explicit redemption for Aerys, he’s not exactly blameless in other areas.
*also also*, the poor way it’s been handled in the show makes it a failed arc. In the books, Jaime is starting to move away from shitty Lannister/Tywinian ethics on the macro and the micro - both in his personal relationships (esp supporting Brienne), and in his conduct in the war. This goes hand in hand with him distancing himself from Cersei.
Thirdly: his redemption arc probably won’t be easy by the end of the books - one theory goes that he’ll strangle Cersei at the end (mirroring his actions with Aerys). Cathartic, yes- morally good, no.
@@rosieo5875 Ah, that cleared it up. Thanks!
Mentioning Zuko while talking about redemption is exactly as it should be.
When you said that having a character fail in their redemption just for the sake of subverting expectations isn't satisfying, I immediately thought of Jaime.
i challenge you to do a video about death of the author without mentioning jk rowling
yes PLEASE
easiest would be george lucas and even the fall of star wars in general and i think that series shows how important story can be even if the visuals in the newer ones are better
danmiy12 ignore the first prequel, 2+3 have better CGI
@@CMTechnica the first prequel still has incredible cgi.. but the terrible cgi scenes dominate our nightmares lol that and jay jay abinks
Check out Lindsey Ellis video of it! 👍🏻👍🏻
So, is this the point where we just say the first Avatar Series is a masterpiece of writing?
Beause it is
There’s nothing to say, that’s just a factual statement
S1 was a drag
@@penaldotapinaldo1713 S1 was great it’s just not as good as S2 and S3
'failure of your characters redemption arc purely to subvert readers expectations is unsatisfying' *cough*jamielannister*cough*
I was about to post the exact same comment but decided to scroll down just in case someone else had the same thought here. I was not expecting to find it so fast.
Fuck D&D for fucking up Jaime!
@@katrijndekeersmaecker1904 Oh you are talking the show witers. For a minute I thought you were talking about the role playing game Dungeons and Dragons (D&D) my bad.
THANK YOU FOR ACKNOWLEDING THE FUCKERY DUMB AND DUMBER DID TO THE BEST CHARACTER ON GOT!!!!
I would argue that Jaime actually DID complete his redemption arc in the end... Even if D&D failed to understand that.
He could have stayed in Winterfell with Brienne, living a happy life, but he decided to do the HONORABLE thing instead - going to the heart of war, bravely, in an attempt to save the queen he was sworn to protect. He was a kingsguard, after all. Going to Cersei was his sworn duty. And by dying to protect her, he became the opposite of a kingslayer. He completed his arc by becoming a man of honor.
And yeah, his DIALOGUE doesn't reflect that, because D&D are dumb (I'm pretty sure that the decision to have Jaime die with Cersei came from GRRM, and D&D were the ones who came up with the dialogue)... but characters have to be judged by their actions first. "Words are wind". Jaime may have talked about how he was a "hateful" man, but his actions showed differently. His actions showed him to be a true knight in the end. Even Brienne understood it, eventually - which is why she wrote that he "died protecting his queen".
@@obsessivefangirl5055 he defended brienne from rape took riverrun without bloodshed left to fight against the dead, and showed remorse for his attempted murder of Bran? He died trying to save his sister someone he loved for years, how was his character ruined exactly?
“A Wizard Did It!” (Music beat with Gandalf laughing)
You won’t let go of that gag, will you?
That depends:
Will Skalligrim's channel drop the End Him Rightly gag??
@@ericward8459 Only when Shad's channel will stop asking "But what about DRAGONS?!"
Also, the beat is Epic Sax Guy, sampled from Moldova's 2010 Eurovision Song Contest submission.
@@daanwilmer AKA one of the most annoying reasons saxophones have a bad reputation.
Deus vult, infidel!
It's called a running joke.
"Undoing character development simply for the sake of subverting your reader's (watcher's) expectations isn't satisfying writing."
Someone tell that to D&D.
What about a "corruption arc" in which the good/bad aspect is inverted? Can that be a compelling story? e.g. the fall of Anakin
I'm not an expert but I'd think so, there are many "rise of evil" stories out there and I think it could also easily work with a less drastic loss of morality (or at least I hope so).
But I think you'd have to choose a different tone and it may be hard to find a satisfying way to end it so you may have to study a few more examples and/or try out a few more options to see what works and what's just a letdown.
Breaking Bad and the Metal Gear prequels are some major examples.
Also, Joker.
The fall of Anakin isn't a good example of corruption arc, because it was really Jedi Order's fault. Their code was quite flawed (riding off your emotion is nearly impossible) and they should never recruit him in the first place, because he was attached to his mother too much
A convincing arc where a character breaks bad? Hmmmmmm
If there's two things I've learned from Tim, it's that *A WIZARD DID IT* and *EVERYTHING IS COMPLICATED*
I think the main point about Darth Vadar was proving that there was still good in him. It's not about a full redemption, just that there was at least enough good in him to care about 1 (or 2) people greater than he cares about himself.
Also, all this talk of redemption and no mention of Xena: Warrior Princess?
Christian Tompkins but then he gets to be a force ghost afterwards essentially saying he is fully back on the light side despite everything he did
Christian Tompkins this is inherently flawed thinking. Neither side is good/evil. One values power and the other values order. Both can be dangerous and this is the central issue of the prequels is that there is too much order and the balance of the galaxy is massively out of place. The force is not a good/evil force just like WoT the power is neither good/evil but can be used for both. There are goos sith and there are bad jedi. To say otherwise is ignorance of the message and themes inherent to the story.
@@MrRedman311 Sorry for the stupid question but, what does WoT mean?
@@zacharyarons6950 I'm wondering the same thing.
@@zacharyarons6950
WoT means Wame of Thrones.
Jacksfilms the movie 😂 I'm dead XD great vid as always man
I’m just hoping I can eventually write a book good enough for you to talk about
isnt that the goal of all of us?
Oliver Schöneck yeah I guess it is
Something like 100 million books are submitted to publishers every year. About 1 million are published. Of that 1 million, less than 500 are profitable (selling a 200k copies or more). You'd have better luck trying to become a professional athlete.
If you want to write, write because you love writing and want to be the best writer you can be. Writing to make money or for recognition is a fool's hope and will only lead to disappointment.
effingasshats you may have me pinned wrong. I don’t want to write to make money. I want to write because of the thrill of creation. I want to give people a world to escape to like I’ve been escaping to since as early as I can remember.
effingasshats that makes you think, out of those 1 million books that are published every year, how many utter master pieces have been published that are simply overlooked by the public?
I love that opening. Zuko forever!
Joshua Fagan I watch your videos , mostly the avatar ones keep up the good work
I don't write but I'm incredibly interested in these types of videos you've been making lately, kudos
I'd change "stakes" to "goals" personally, but that nitpick aside this is a really great video that gave me real insights into how I'd write an arc like this
I freaking live Redemption Arcs in stories!!! And by far my most favorite in all of Literature and Fiction is (unsurprisingly) Zuko from Avatar: The Last Airbender. It truly is such an amazing and compelling Redemption Arc that has honestly stayed with me for years. And in general it is unlikely to be forgotten anytime soon. This video explained perfectly why it's so amazing, too!!! :)
@Gabriella Maroney My favorite part is that Zuko totally fails and goes back to being a bad guy at the end of season two, resulting in Aang’s death. It’s realistic, Azula gave him the chance to have everything he ever wanted, and he took it. Then we get that amazing scene where he finally confronts his father.
Needs vs wants
In beauty and the beast the beast "WANTS" bell to fall in love with him but he learns that he "NEEDS" earn her love
Zuko "WANTS" his "honor" back and his fathers respect but learns that he "NEEDS" to let go of his past and follow his own destiny
Hello Future Me: Don’t fail redemption arcs just to subvert expectations
Pretty Much Everyone: JaImE LaNNiSteR!?!*!
i'm 27 seconds in, and it's already amazing. love Zuko.
I was just talking to my mom about this series and why I love it so much, and when I got to talking about the character arcs of Zuko and Azula, my favorite part of the show, I literally choked up out of nowhere. I was describing Zuko's betrayal of Iroh and how he ultimately redeemed himself in the end and before I knew it I was literally crying. I basically never cry, but I feel such a deep connection with this series and these characters.
Jaime's redemption src is great *if we don't count season 8* i'm looking forward to seeing it in the books
We dont talk about season 8
I do think they slowed down a bit too much after season 4. He was just kind of...there? He was still Cersei's lapdog 'till the end of season 7. I think this one was done better with the books. In book 4 (Which is somewhere around seasons 4-5) Jaime is turning against Cersei, finding out how used he has been, etc. He is seeing the consequences of what he does and we see him actively go out of his way to make sure he honors his vows. (He has to attack a castle with Tullys in there; he vowed to never raise a sword against the Tullys again). Cleverly he accomplishes this without ever killing or even hurting any of the Tullys. Meanwhile in the show, he's just...kind of there.
@@megashark3870 ooooooh! Now that's more like it! 😁 now i want to read that haha i hope it doesn't end like the show, i have great hopes on the books. I think the books might give him a decent story arc.
Thanks, i didn't notice that but you are right, after s4 he doesn't do much stuff
@@malahamavet I'd definitely recommend reading the books. Although I love the first four seasons of the show and even like some aspects of the latter seasons, the book are just so much better. Although it takes a looooong time to read them it's definitely worth it. I'm currently on the 5th one, A Dance With Dragons.
Season shit ruined my boy. I'll never forgive D&D for that
Your book is currently very high on my wish list for birthday gifts
This has been SUPER helpful in me getting my head around the book I am working on. I chose a story that was a bit more complex than I initially thought and it has been a beast to create.
Hey I would love if you did an on writing: rivalries video. Thanks man
Seconded! Interpersonal and also between groups!
Starring Zuko and Clone Zuko
Good idea, I love a good rivalry and to have Tim do a video on it would be an early christmas gift.
Yes! obviously mention ATLA, but maybe Sasuke and Naruto too?
yugi vs kaiba rivalry best change my mind.
Could you maybe make a video about lovestorys? I think that would be something that's missing till now and it's actually a part of storys i still have problems with.
Next you should do "on writing romantic relationships" and include how it needs to appeal to the viewers in any way possible. Like hiccup and Astrid. Most people (including myself) could relate to the runty boy known as hiccup in httyd 1. Getting the girl of his dreams to recognize him was a daring feat that many of us can relate to. Now even though we can't show our crushes around on the back of a night fury in real life, I think you're the perfect person to elaborate on this type of topic. Perhaps I could even join u on this video.
- Magicov
13:35 YES. ALL OF MY *YES*.
"Subverting expectations" is not inherently good writing.
Someone should have told that to Ryan Johnson
*Ruin Johnson
@@dw1419 Are people still doing that "gag"?
@@jakerockznoodles What do you mean? What "gag"? It's the name Ruin Johnson has earned for himself.
@@ltb1345 That nickname is the gag. Like a play on words. A pun. Surely you know what one of them is, ya humourless bustard
"The name Ruin Johnson earned for himself" - Like, c'mon, do you not hear how silly this sounds? 😂
this video still holds to this day.
Although Zuko and Jaime's redemption arcs are my faves, I am so glad to see Regina from OUAT included. I have forgotten how glorious her arc has been.
Once Upon a Time came out where female characters suffered the consequences for their actions instead of simply getting away with them because they are women
Me: being early to a video
Also me: *A WIZARD DID IT*
I love the redemption Zuko has. He really sees no other option than to make his father proud… or he’s a failure and a disgrace. But he finally realises that he has choices and sees how horrible and abusive his father was. He realises that his nation has been harming others and that he wants love, a thing his father could never give him but Iroh could.
If you think Vader's turn is sudden, I really, really think you need to re-watch the movies (like a dozen more times). His feelings towards his son move him way back in Empire. BEFORE we even know he's Luke's father.
I love this video and most of your videos are phenomenal (I'm going to buy your book as soon as I return to the States), but I really think you missed the mark with Vader. I get that you're point is that his "redemption" just strikes you as showing little more than a changing locus of selfishness, but in a story that is about the Emperor's (and the Empire's) hubris failing him while Luke's nobility and self-sacrifice redeems the galaxy... the Vader arc is thematically vital, shadowing the failure of the Emperor and the success of Luke in how he turns. (These themes are themselves shadowed in the battle on the ground and the battle in space and are why I seriously think there is no thematic ending more powerful than Return of the Jedi.)
I really, really think you need to look again at Vader's redemption and place it within the greater arc of the story.
I've been thinking about this with regard to the attempt at imitating this in another movie lately, and it pointed up surprising strengths in Vader's arc which I hadn't considered before. You've got clear regrets on Vader's part when he finally speaks with Luke in VI. It's not always verbalised - he even changes the subject at one point to avoid confronting it - but he clearly can't fully refute Luke's view that there's good in him. It becomes an implicit challenge which is made explicit at the crux of the confrontation with Palpatine.
@@blokey8 Exactly. I'll just repeat what I said at the end of that reply, I think the ending of ROJ is the single-best thematic culmination in film history. I'm not a cinophile truly, so I'm sure I'm missing something. But the set-up to the scene, and the flanking battle scenes in space and on Endor, everything is laid out perfectly.
@@MrZemme I don't know if it's the best ever, but what really matters is that it's just right for that situation. That sort of best fit is the kind of thing Hollywood rarely finds now, because they're reverse engineering blockbusters rather than writing from the characters outward.
@@blokey8 You know what, that's a much better way to phrase it, 'just right for the situation'. I'm prone to hyperbole. Thanks for catching me out.
But yes, Hollywood (and Netflix et al. it should be added) don't seem to think thematically in quite the same way. They seem to prize 'cool shots' over catharsis.
@@MrZemme All credit to Film Crit Hulk for that. He talks extensively about that stuff in his articles - and has an excellent video on why A New Hope works so brilliantly.
Love this whole video, through and through. Zuko is and will always be a top notch character, and I'm always so excited about and impressed by your thoughts on these sorts of things. Though I'd have to argue slightly against you in that for me Vader's redemption through death is kind of poetic and mirrors his initial fall since trying to prevent death is what turned him to the dark side in the first place. I never saw Palpatine's death as Vader's redemption, rather the the acceptance of his own death and his admission to his son that he and his sister were right all along was what showed that he understood how horribly he'd acted
Reverse Challenge: Discuss DEdemption arcs (I.E. Fallen Hero type deals) exclusively through the lens of Zuko.
That's not enough for a whole extra video because it's the exact same process. You make changes to the same triangle of ideas, but instead change them in negative ways that cause the character to make negative/evil/destructive choices.
@@tristanwilliford9099 But can you rephrase that to be Zuko-centric?
Clearly he could not
2:55 - Redemption Arc Trifecta
4:26 - Three Strategies used to Change a Characters Self View & World View
6:57 - Zuko Trifecta
11:39 - Wins & Fails In Redemption Arc
12:34 - Fail Redemption Arc
13:54 - After Redemption (Symmetry)
Redemptive villain arcs are great.
And my absolute favourite cliché is when an old villain is needed to help take down a newer one.
Negan and Megatron are the first to come to mind.
Man what would I do without these videos. I've always had a passion for creative writing, and these videos have done so much in the ways of nurturing that passion. They are informative and so engaging. I love this series.
CHALLENGE REJECTED is the most manly sounding cop-out
Your On Writing series has seriously helped me so much. I started writing a novel years ago when I was still a teenager ... needless to say it has A LOT of issues. And I mean a lot. So many that I haven't touched it in years because sorting out this mess of a story seemed like an impossible task. It started out as a vague idea for a funny short story, then turned into a fantasy novel with no real plot outline that was supposed to be comedic but really just consisted of a crapton of badly written stereotypes, then it became a somewhat darker fantasy adventure story with serious tone problems and barely any internal, emotional story arcs in the first part (there will be a nice non-redemption arc in the second part though and yes, there have to be two parts) and now it's ... kind of a dramedy fantasy story with only a few fantasy elements that are used to create to create the main external conflict that deals with political themes, different ideologies, family, abuse and overcoming your upbringing and harmful relationship dynamics taught in early childhood. With serious tone problems. Or at least, that's what I want the story to be. Minus the tone problems. What I'm trying to say is, I've finally taken on the mammoth task of making this collection of badly used clichés, unbelievable villains and seemingly shallow characters (they're not, in my head they're not) an okay story. One that could actually be enjoyable to readers who don't have insight into my head and can't see how magnificent the characters and their stories truly are (not as magnificent as Mishka but I wouldn't want to create perfect characters anyway). I've finally started working on this story again because I really do love the characters and their world and I think they deserve better than the mess i created when I was a teenager and then abanadoned. I'm still at the planning and rewriting the plot outline and the scenes I already have stage and your series has helped me A LOT with it. I've fixed some of the major issues that have been preventing me from working on this for years (except for the tone problems) and I have some new ideas on how to give the characters more depth and put their struggles and character development into a context (and actually give them more character development). There's still a lot to work on, especially the tone problems (I dare you, take a shot every time I say tone problems. Tone problems, tone problems.) So yeah, thank you so much for this series, it's unbelievably helpful. I'm gonna keep watching (or at least listening while I try to tackle the other mammoth task that is my laundry) and taking notes and hopefully I'll be able to write a decent story with somewhat believable characters. Without any tone problems.
no one:
HFM: *A WIZARD DID IT*
Shh it’s his jam
Angel the TV show has really solid core themes about redemption. Kinda explores the idea that it's a journey without a finish line.
Yes showed all sides of it Faith who chooses redemption and Lindsay who chooses to throw it away.
Really great video, Tim!! I think another part of redemption arcs that are essential is asking “who’s to blame?” Better redemption arcs consist of the character fully owning up to their actions because they’re the ones wholly to blame, not some kind of manipulation or third party that influenced them. While there may be some kind of molding (I.e. the culture they grew up in, the people they spend time around), making the characters own their actions creates a compelling piece of writing. Active redemption is better than passive redemption.
As someone who's been looking for my own redemption, this video was... really emotional to me. I know that's not really what you made the video for, but I just want to say... thanks. You're doing good.
I literally purchased your book 30 seconds into this vid. Can't wait to read it 😊
Thank you!
~ Tim
As an experiment, I've started a novel from scratch using a Redemption Arc map I've extrapolated from this video. So far, it looks like an exellent guide for creating a satisfying character-driven story. I am making similar maps from your other videos (and your book, which I ordered as soon as it was available :D).
Thank you for doing the work to make these videos!
One of my favorite redemption arcs is Ken from Digimon 02. That entire season was a mixed bag and pretty messy but Ken's arc was 10/10 amazing.
Oh yeah! I'm surprised I didn't think of him before reading your comment. Growing up Digimon (the original version, not american one) was one of my favourite series and Ken was a very interesting character. Altough, back then, I couldn't understand what made him so great. I just knew he was different from other "kids" chartoon characters.
He is still my favorite anime character, even after all this time, and other animes watched.
I don't know why do I like those characters that went through deep existential crises so much. Is it because I also went through them myself?
Ken Ichijoji and black war Greymon had great redemption arcs also Imp/beelzemon
I'm such a sucker for redemption arcs
Sincerely, thank you for making your book and all your videos so easy to digest. You truly have a gift.
I think Vader did grasp the enormity of what he did, and why his path is wrong- it just didn't happen in Return of the Jedi. In Empire Strikes Back, Vader's goal is to turn Luke to his side. When Luke, even after being in a position of hopelessness and knowing the truth, chooses death rather than join his father, Vader realizes two things: firstly, he always had the choice of whether or not to turn. Secondly, he sees himself for the first time as others do: as a monster. Vader always believed that he was doing what he did for his loved ones. To see his son reject him so completely (moreso than Padme did) caused him to realize who he really was.
To illustrate this, Vader makes a quite subtle but quite important choice. He probably chokes about five officers in Empire Strikes Back; that movie basically codified the force choke as something Vader does. And yet, during the denouement as the Falcon escapes, Vader does not choke Piett, he just walks from the room in silence. And we never see him choke someone again. Vader in Return of the Jedi isn't a hero; the Emperor is all he has left, and I believe his goal in that movie is for Luke to kill him and join the Dark Side. Vader sees it as sacrificing himself for his son, as he still believes the Dark Side to be destined to win. But he starts ROTJ in a different and undoubtedly better place than he starts the other two films in the OT.
I think you make a good point, but I would still argue it happened in Empire, though the process that ultimately lead to it starts in Empire Strikes Back as you point out. In return, he pretty much explains why he is still acting the way he does still "Luke: come with me, let go of your hate" "Vader: it is... too late for me" (i.e. whether the dark side or the light wins, Vader believes himself beyond redemption). Then Luke pushes him to the point of no return, where he has no option but to embrace the truth "it is not too late, I can still reject this and go back to the light, even if it is the last thing I do". That is when The Jedi [in Vader] Returns (hinted earlier in the same dialogue, with Vader saying that Luke finally accepts he is his father, and Luke corrects him "I accept that you once was Anakin Skywalker [i.e. not the Sith Lord Darth Vader], my father".
@@louisvictor3473 I would agree with that. The way I see it is that in Empire Vader realizes that he is evil and in Jedi he realizes he doesn't have to be.
What i love about zuko's redemption arc is that it doesn't start when he loses to the mc aka the avatar.It starts at his most lowest point being a fugitive from the fire nation.The season one shows us the characteristics and personality of zuko being someone obsessed with regaining his honor but showing that he isn't what we think he is.He isn't a bad person on the contrary he is kind hearted so much so that he cares about his people like in the episode the storm in which he detest the idea of using their fire benders are disposable pawns because he thinks they are people.But back to my topic in the second book we see more of his kind heartedness come out all the while him adjusting to his new life.Seeing things at a new perspective but still caring about his honor.So much so that he betrays his uncle but still has the feeling of guilt.At first i thought him betraying his uncle is bad writing because it's like he didn't learn or improve his character but i was wrong when i watched book 3.Where we see him reacting to the fire nation and everything it has done.And him reflecting on his past actions and how he has did so many wrong.With that culminating in him finally facing his father with no fear whatsoever and him retaliating by returning his Father's lightning back at him as a sign that he has finally let go of his father's grasp.And letting go of his past
17:25 THANK YOU! For years I've been telling my friend's Vader's death doesn't mean he's returned to the Jedi and that he regrets all the pain he caused as Darth Vader. It just means he wanted to save Luke from dying.
Regret is a core part of Vader's character. The end of Revenge of the Sith has him scream in agony over the death of Padme, as he couldn't believe she was dead, and that he killed her. Most side stories involving Vader like the comics show how much he regrets his actions. How every horrid thing he did for his family, was for nothing. When he speaks with Luke in Return of the Jedi, he states it's "Too late for me, son." He doesn't think he can, or should, be redeemed. In Anakin's mind, he's gone too far. He's killed so many, and caused pain for the entire galaxy, so that he could keep those he loves safe, and failed. When Padme died, he essentially died himself, as he really couldn't live with himself. He states that the person in the entire galaxy he hates the most is himself, reflecting how he truly regrets his actions. He only does what he does because he's Palpatine's personal attack dog now. Palpatine is the only person he has left, and all he can do is follow Palpatine's orders until Palpatine finds a new apprentice and disposes of him like with his previous 2 apprentices. Saying Vader doesn't regret what he did shows a complete lack of understanding of his character.
You're consistently good, my dude. Thank you for more quality content.
I watched this on a whim thinking I had a pretty good idea about how I was going to put one of my characters through a redemption arc and discovered that I was going to try to redeem the wrong character! Your videos really fill in everything I thought I knew and didn't know I needed to know about writing.
One of the best and most complex redemption arcs I've seen in along time is that of Arthur Morgan in Red Dead Redemption 2. I mean redemption is literally in the title.
John Marston has well. It's a shame that he's underrated compared to Arthur Morgan. Both are great characters.
Im coming back to this video about 10 months after I first watched it, and my thoughts after about 5 minutes of this video was "Damn i forgot how much i loved this one". You got plenty of avatar references, both "people are complicated" and "a wizard did" and its just so clean and well thought out. Fantastic job
Zuko is one of my favourite redemption story. It really got me by surprise when I was watching TLA. I mean, I knew Aang needed a fire mentor, but it never ocurred to me it would be Zuko. And when it happened, it was great.
Effing love the clip you use of Gandalf everytime you say wizard lmfao idk why it's so silly but it gets me everytime! Will be ordering your book at the end of this month, ALL HAIL MISHKA!
Zuko’s redemption arc is great
Zuko is, to me, still the ultimate redemption arc. I'm glad you touched on it here, but it I love that you talked about other examples, too. Thank you. This was very informative.
You're videos are so great. You are really good at explaining what you are talking about in each video.
Because of this video I've decided that I would have a character with a redemption arck in my novel that I'm writing.
And you're video helped me understand how to do this properly.
Thanks a lot for that.
My paperback copy is ordered, can’t wait. The on writing series really helped me get through the forest of writing limbo of writing a first chapter and deleting it (I’m now plotting my story arcs, which I highly recommend as a first step now), and I’m currently on the second short story of my worlds collection.
Thank you for the blessing you are, HFM
I came here for a Templin collaboration. Subscribed and loved your channel so much, it helps me write!
You have no idea how much this video has helped me with my own writing, so I must thank you for this.
As weird as it sounds, my most popular work online that I've done is a Total Drama fanfic (It's called 'Total Drama Danganronpa Island') where the main character of that story is either ignored or rejected by the other killing game participants because they are victims of the many MANY bad actions they took in the canon show they were on in the past. He's not the main villain but he is noticeably on a lower end of the morality spectrum to the other good hearted victims of the game (except maybe Heather and Izzy, who are also pretty antagonistic)
His main gimmick at first is that he wants to be viewed as a bad boy and a criminal who can't be messed with because that's the label his family, friends, and the canon show gave him. He views himself as someone who is only capable of hurting others and causing trouble, and acknowledgement of any positive traits he has means he's a failure. He's been thrown into worlds like Juvie and the show where you have to be a ruthless survivalist to make it, and people fail when they are soft. So that's the triangle.
So how is this a redemption arc for him? Like I said, there's a good third of the cast in the story that hates him because he's done horrible things to them in the past. (One of them is a bully victim. Two of them are ex girlfriends that he abused. Etc.) In a killing game, with lethal consequences for all of them, he has the option to stick to his ideals or attempt to save everyone. At first he picks to ignore the lethal part of the consequences and stick to the playful bad boy prankster to make sure everyone got the message and that he was as hateable as they thought...
A friend of his gets killed. And by the rules of the game, a good hearted guy gets executed.
This is Duncan's fault because he put a tripwire as a prank, and he used a poor choice of words to console his friend that being a terrible person is okay if you're committed. His friend tried to kill a dude, and because of the tripwire, the good dude accidentally tripped and killed her instead. They're both dead, and Duncan's alive, with guilt on his shoulders. This was NOT what he wanted to happen.
His stakes change from these consequences as he realizes he should try to stop the killing game before it takes more lives. But he still views himself and the world the same way, he can't be anything more than a bad boy, and you will lose if you are openly kind. So he decides to make someone else the hero instead and train who was once a bully victim of his to be the hero and save everyone. They actually become friends...
That goes as well as you expect from someone being a coward about responsibilities.
He's a bad role model. He ignores the nerd's growing stress and insecurities and forcefully toughens him up, teaching him harmful lessons. That nerd ends up becoming a murderer in an attempt to 'save everyone', and he gets executed, and more bodies become meat shields for Duncan. In this case, Duncan was legit trying to help and thought he was, but he ran away from responsibilities that should've been his at the end of the day. World view shattered.
The world view continues to shatter with one of his ex girlfriends working for the Mastermind, and they're forced to work together when he finds out about this. She is one of his biggest consequences, and she too is trying to better herself after being canceled. In a progressively worse circumstance, he realizes that the soft should be protected instead of toughened, as he himself, due to guilt, tries to take responsibilities head on and do everything. The remaining people are good people, and they have more complex feelings than he gave credit for. But he STILL views himself as a bad person and someone who can't change, so he tries to sacrifice himself to save everyone instead of live to ruin their lives, and the attempt fails. The ex girlfriend who NEVER forgave him, dies instead.
And going back a little to the Despair Woods incident with Izzy and Cody?? Okay, that one Duncan didn't really do anything wrong, other than break a wasp nest. But still, know your bugs!
Now, this fic isn't over yet, and at the point where I'm at now, how Duncan views himself has not changed, and he hasn't fully redeemed himself yet. Obviously. My point is that I took heavy inspiration from this video on how to write this redemption arc and exactly where I want to take it in the future.
I have to thank you heavily for that!
Also Zuko best angst boy.
"A WIZARD DID IT"
has basically become a meme on this channel
I freaking love redemption arcs. Like, I have a type. And this video mentioned ALL of my favourites, one by one. It basically punched me in the feelings and left me crying in a corner.
Seriously though, this video is AMAZING. If I hadn't bought On Writing already, this would have pushed me to do it for sure.
I challenge you to make a “what makes a good spin off?” In which a new story follows the actions of a supporting character from the main story that takes place in parallel or after the main story.
Examples: Rosencrantz and Guildenstern
To Aru Index/Railgun
Literally every fan fiction ever written
Not sure if this comment is gonna be interesting but whatever haha
One the best examples I know of, is from "Les quêtes d'Ewilan" and it's spin off "Ellana" which are fantasy books from a French author. I'm not quite sure you can find the Ellana books translated though (which is why I'm not sure this comment is going to be useful)
Like the original series "The quest of Ewilan" is good, that's for sure, but it doesn't come close to "Ellana" in my opinion. (but maybe that's because she's my favorite charachter idk)
Check it out if you want ;-)
You mentioned Artemis (Favourite book series since I was 12), I feel like nobody does. Instant subscriber!
Me: Wanting to find Theon Greyjoy//Jaime Lannister
Future me: ZUKOO
(I love Zuko tho)
Sorry buddy but GOT took a nose dove into shit stain city
@@lucasfragoso7634 Not the books tho
(And he does mention Jaime)
@@Iamthegreatcow And Theon. HFM briefly discussed Theon's arc at the end, and that it was a good one.
@@Iamthegreatcow Don't forget Tyrion Lannister. After book 4 he becomes a darker version of himself more inline with Tywin... Oh wait the books aren't finished yet. Never mind.
@@tkgwildfire5339 LMAO
I'm afraid he dies without finishing it (maybe GRRM should stop drinking)
Whenever I feel capable of writing a full series of fantasy novels, I'll have every video of yours on hand to remind me how to properly write characters.
I'm rewatching the last airbender. I've always loved Zuko's redemption arc. But this time I'm going thru something similar (a little less fantacy...) so it's hitting home. Also, Zuko is the best redemption arc I've seen.
I'm late to this party for sure, but I just grabbed the Audible version of your book - great narration, vernacular and overall framework so far. It almost sounds like the Hello Future Me channel, only I don't have to watch a screen! Definitely binging this at work tomorrow. I already know that I can't wait for volume 2! Keep up the good work. Seriously, this channel is a gem.
a great redemption arc is Londo Mollari in Babylon 5. so much great character arcs, but Londo is such a classic tragic villain turned hero. JM Straczynski has a real talent for the long development. Just bought your book! can't wait to read it.
ur loyalty to zuko made me subscribe JSJSJSJSJ im greatly educated by ur videos, ive just gotten a job as a storyboard artist and writing a comic, and ur videos have landed on my lap like godsend. thanks for ur work.
Can you do a video on the themes of world-building, redemption, and other story making ideas in Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood? From Ed and Al’s change in perception of the world to Mustang’s redemption arc and the death of Maes Hughes.
Your videos always require an extra amount of attention I don't usually give to videos however the content of your videos always makes it worth it.
I really think that Gollum is the perfect example of a failed redemption arc. All throughout the three movies you see Gollum get better and better, until he finally lets Gollum go, and becomes Sméagol. In this, we see who he really was before the ring, until Frodo made a mistake, and he went to the forbidden pool and was hurt. Right until the almost very end of the third movie, when Shelob comes, we think he is coming back, and even until we reach mount doom. But then, the most chilling line. “But Sméagol promised!” says Frodo. “Sméagol lied,” Sméagol says. We think that Gollum is still making him do this, and then we learn that ever since the pool, it was Sméagol all along.
This is a ridiculously good video. It's , practically, also a video on self development and dealing with failure.
1:05 non-villain arcs
2:00 ways to being redemption arc
2:50 the redemption arc trifecta
4:10 3 useful redemption storythreads
6:50 zukos arc
9:35 mistakes
11:40 making redemption arcs
12:30 failed redemption arcs
13:50 symmetry in powerful redemption
16:05 types of redemption arcs
17:00 Death=redemption done bad
18:25 Death=redemption done good
19:20 summary
Roy Mustang’s redemption arc is so good and I think it’s because of how hard it would be to forgive yourself if you were in his shoes. There’s a huge amount of admiration for overcoming the atrocities and allowing himself forgiveness