I had the privilege of talking to Antoni Wit in person. He himself believes that recording of this symphony is one of his most important achievements in cavernous discography he did over the years...
I first heard this piece after nodding off during an FM radio broadcast of a Brahms chamber piece, then suddenly woke up in the middle of the first mvt of the Turangalila, of course without hearing the announcer's intro. I felt like I had awakened into a dream after being abducted by aliens. Never forgot that feeling, and it remains one of my favorite 20th C music experiences.
As a newbie to actively listening to, and studying, classical music, I have come to realize that there is what I see as a vast divide between only being exposed to this music via recordings and having access to see/hear it performed live in person. This symphony seems to be the perfect personification of the recording vs. live phenomenon. Sitting in my cabin in the Appalachian mountains in my comfy chair by the fireplace with my headphones on this piece is a chore that more than once made me want to stop listening to it and hurl my headphones across the room. Based on comments I have read and my own imagination, I think that to experience this symphony in an enormous hall with incredible acoustics and a packed audience would be a totally different experience. While listening to recommendations by Mr. Hurwitz, I am often dismayed that I do not have the same, or even remotely close to the same, responses to the music he so passionately talks about and have often thought it is my "untrained" ears that are betraying me but I think what is being lost in transition is the fact that I have not heard any of these pieces live. Like millions of other people in the USA, the only piece Mr. Hurwitz has talked about extensively that I have heard live has been the Nutcracker during a school field trip to the Fox Theater in Atlanta sometime during my middle school years. Since that school trip, I have seen the Atlanta Symphony play once at their performance hall in the early 90's but have no memory of what they performed and again, in a smaller touring format, at my local elementary school's small auditorium for a Christmas concert some time circa 2014. I also once saw a touring choir sing Handel's Messiah at a huge mega church in the suburbs of Atlanta back in the late 90's. Other than orchestra's that might have been playing during the handful of Broadway shows I have seen, or during touring productions of shows, that is the extent of my live experience of live classical music. I just want to remind all the people who comment about having seen live performances of these works just how lucky they are to have been able to experience so much great music and to give a special hug to all those parents or mentors who took them or encouraged them to become life long patrons/consumers of live performances. I will keep listening in my little cabin in the mountains and maybe one day I will be able to hear some of this wonderful music live too but for now I am just grateful for streaming and the chance to have all this music at my fingertips and for Mr. Hurwitz to help guide me through it all.
Great video! I've fallen in love with the Tarantula :-) symph long ago, first time i've heard it live was during a Messiaen Conservatoire project in the 80s, with Messiaen/the Loriods present, conducted by Reinbert de Leeuw; after that i saw Messiaen a couple of times at matinee concerts at the Concertgebouw. How you describe him , sitting in the concert hall, head bent over a large score, is just how it was, and the exuberant dresses by the Loriod sisters, thats exactly how it was. And how Yvonne Loriod could play, with her looks of an old fashioned french teacher...crystal clear is what i remember. I once sat close to the ondes martenot during a performance of the T.symph, conducted by that great Messiaen specialist Reinbert de Leeuw, and that was not particulary a joy for the ears. Wonderful imitation you did, LOL. Any idea why Bernstein never performed it again after the premiere, maybe his interests were with American music perhaps at the time?
I have often wondered the same thing, especially given that fact that Bernstein did do the Trois Petites Liturgies (and very well too), which I believe was a NY Phil commission.
@@DavesClassicalGuide On RUclips there is a wonderful great sounding rehearsal sequence with Bernstein/BSO, must have been quite a struggle to get all the rhythms right.
Dear David. You shaped my sense for good classical performances. My library is full of your 10/10 reviews. Every year I am going to Munich at Ludwig Beck to buy from the list, you created. Thank you very much for your amazing work in classicsroday. Keep up your amazing and independed critical work.
Thank you. It's also good to know that Kaufhaus Beck is still in business, although I can't imagine what their classical section looks like. I knew their buyer a couple of decades ago and used to shop there as well when visiting friends in Munich.
@@DavesClassicalGuide They claim they have the biggest store for classical music in Europe. I am going to subscribe to your insider section again. I adore your honest, sharp and uncompromissed revies. I have just added Naxos version to my list. Also Hanssler classics for his orchestral works. I am your happy subscriber. I am so happy to see you in person. I am also a musical producer and director. But mostly for RUclips. Take care dear David.
Brilliant review sir. Really enjoying your reviews yr humour and sometimes brutal but honest opinions. Invaluable. As for Messaien : yes unique and fascinating music
A long time audiophile and fan of music, but relatively new to the world of Classical music I have found your reviews very insightful and helpful especially in these comparisons. It seems that the best renditiond rely on both performance in terms of execution and emotion but also in sound quality.
Hi Mr. Hurwitz. Having just learned of this work by Messiaen, I was so happy to see that you have done a video on it. I will definitely look for the ones you recommend. Thanks.
I had the Ozawa record (with Takemitsu) when I was a teenager. I was obsessed with it. It was part of my "teenage rebellion", along with another Messiaen record ("Et Expecto"... conducted by Boulez), another Takemitsu record (Roger Woodward Plays Takemitsu, incl. Corona, London Version) and the (original manuscript) Carmina Burana recordings by Studio der frühen Musik. Most of the other kids at the time were listening to Led Zeppelin and Boston, which I didn't learn to like until later.
Here, here on the Wit!! And I agree on the Nagano because he conducts tempos like he`s trying so hard to get the whole thing onto one disk. It left me exhausted. In contrast, Mr. Wit takes his time and lets this unbelievable music breathe--especially in the last movement which I think I remember Nagano taking at a breakneck speed. There is so much going on and so much density throughout the work that I want to be able to pick out as many lines and layers that my ears can discern. It`s so much more fun that way. (I`d love to play it on a home sound system, buuut...after I took my new wife to a performance of Messiaen`s famous Quartet, she asked me to NOT take her to anything like that again. However, we did see DC`s NSO perform Revueltas` "La Noche de los Mayas" and at its conclusion she stood right up to give them a standing ovation. You never know sometimes, huh?)
Hi Dave, would you please consider giving us more Messiaen talks? I was lucky enough to be given two box sets, a 6 disc set from Naive Classique and a 32 disc DG set. My favorite recording so far is Des canyons aux étoiles from the Naive Classique box. I’d enjoy hearing your thoughts.
I rarely listen to this work these days, but the one that sticks with me the most is Hans Rosbaud's mono recording with (of course) the SWF SO on Wergo. Of course it doesn't have the same quality of recorded sound or virtuosity as later recordings, but to my ears there's something just "right" about a lot of the tempi and phrasing.
Thank you for your excellent surveys! Just FYI, the box of Messiaen's orchestral works with Cambreling and the (now sadly defunct) SWR Symphony Orchestra (which includes the very good Turangalila you mention), has been reissued by Hänssler at a reasonable price.
Saw it with Stefan Asbury and the Tanglewood Music Center Orchestra at cozy Ozawa Hall in '16. These kids knocked it outta the park! I was in the 1st balcony directly over the orchestra. My ears are still ringing, and I think I'm still a little high.
I have, for years, attempted to appreciate this piece and the music of Messiaen in general, returning to it on occasion. Also the Quartet. I've also been to countless organ recitals that feature his music. Hours of uncomfortable, dissonant, generally unpleasant sounds with mystical-sounding titles like "The Glorious Body", "20 Gazes on the Christ Child", etc. It's like horror movie music, something to accompany a crime scene. I admit, I don't get it. It's agonizing to hear, no matter how wonderful the performances themselves. During one period when I was trying to appreciate Messiaen, I was describing his music to a lady I see occasionally at the dog park, and it wasn't sinking in. So, I whipped out my phone, fired up 20 Gazes, and politely waited for her reaction. "Is that a dog playing the piano? You know, how they have videos of dogs playing the piano?" I discretely changed the subject. I had great hopes for this recording. I wish it had finally done the trick.
@@DavesClassicalGuide This I understand. What is incomprehensible to me is why, say, 20 gazes on the Christ Child, sounds so ugly. One would think that Messiaen was trying say baby Jesus was disfigured. When one compares the titles to the music itself, it is as if there is no relation between them. Using his book (which I refer to as "How I Did It"), I once wrote a piece "by Messiaen" and fooled a few organist friends for awhile. I gave it the title "The Severed Breasts of St. Agatha" (Les seins coupés de Ste. Agathe), and it sounded pretty much like the horrifying title, and it also included latin passages in his Angelic Language (forcipibus, dextra, sinister). It was rather convincing, and for once the title matched the sound of the music. That said, there are some genuinely gorgeous passages in Turangalîla. It's just the ones in between that grate.
@@DavesClassicalGuide I think, were you to assemble a group of random people in a room, and play for them 20 Gazes, and then The Grosse Fugue, I believe 20 Gazes would be voted as more ugly than the Beethoven. But, you know, until this experiment is actually performed, we shall never really know.
There`s nothing wrong with you because that`s like me with music by Elliott Carter. I just don`t get it. Like you I try on occasion to listen to something of his figuring that I`m missing something that I`ll eventually understand. I never do! Evidently my "appreciation receptors" just aren`t tuned to his style. Some people, though, say they love it. I guess I`m more of a textures kind of guy. Messiaen certainly loves them. In that sense that`s why I find music of Xenakis sort of intriguing as his is mostly textures. Yet....I find "art" by Jackson Pollock abhorrent. Go figure.
Some 15 years ago I got a lot of interest in classical music (and never looked back) and got a 10 or so concert subscription at the local concert hall (now I do volunteer work there, that gets me to see a lot of concerts for free). One of the pieces I chose was Turangalila and I was totally blown away, being used so far to Mozart, Beethoven, etc. The funny thing is, years later I saw or read an interview with Esa-Pekka Salonen in which he said Turangalila was his first contact with modern classical music.
Salonen's experience is similar to mine. As a sixteen-year-old in 1993, I was completely into blues and reggae, until I could go to concerts in the Vredenburg music center in Utrecht for 10 guilders (about 5 USD at the time). I didn't want to go alone, but I took a friend from school with me. We chose the Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra, because it was the best orchestra in the Netherlands at the time. The program included the Turangalila symphony with Chailly. My friend left halfway through, but I was completely blown away. I remained fascinated until the end. From that moment on, my love for classical music was born. Funny how that is possible, maybe because you need these kinds of extreme experiences during puberty. Because it is quite an extreme piece for an inexperienced sixteen-year-old boy
Thanks again David for encouraging me to listen to a great piece I've basically ignored for 30 years. I heard the piece 3 times live in 1987-1988: London with Previn, Chicago with Mehta, and St. Louis (maybe with Slatkin?). kind of burned me out on the piece--listened after your review and got blown away again!
I am really happy that you, too, prefer Wit. I am overwhelmed by his performance: Just the right tempi, fantastically clear concerning the sound layers, wonderful the dark brass, well balanced the bassoons in the statue theme, and I like also that jazzy touch of the trumpets in the Finale (although Messiaen always pointed out to be the only French composer of his generation not to have had a flirt with jazz - but he had, in my opinion). I buyed the Wit, because I made an interesting experience with him: Wit's recording of Messiaen's "Eclairs sur l'Au-Delà" was the first or at least the only one I could get, back then. I just wanted to listen to the work, not to the conductor. After a while, there came other recordings, but none of them I got to know had the same impact an fire like Wit's had. And after the "Turangalila" I know that this conductor has the right hand for the great orchestra cycles of Messiaen. Chailly is also very good, I know, but Wit's is my most played "Turangalila".
I’ve so enjoyed the Erato-Warner Messiaen Edition, so much so that I don’t feel the urge to buy any more-wait... maybe that’s not such a good sign after all! Honestly speaking, I found that quantity of music satisfying and interesting, but also realized I didn’t feel the urge to explore his organ or orchestral music any further. Before that, I had also enjoyed Peter Hill and Peter Serkin in the piano works. Unfortunately, the Erato-Warner box has Nagano, and that’s the only version of Turangalila I’ve heard. Upon your recommendations I’ve added the others to my RUclips playlist. Your reviews are showing me that my orchestral collection is lacking and that there’s so much to explore. Thanks for the ideas!
Thank you, Dave Hurwitz. You clean the scales from the eyes of our ears: and bring head and heart, encyclopedic knowledge and deep experience, razor-sharp acuity and tender compassion into a very fine-tuned equilibrium. Great artists need great critics. Thanks for so fearlesslytaking your unique place in the life of this phenomenon - music - without which, as Holst said to VW, life itself would not be worth living. We need you! Keep it up!!!
My first choices: Chailly and Chung are my picks. The first highlights more the dark side and the violent contrasts of the work. while Chung emphasizes more the impressionist side. This is even seen in the performance of the piano in Thibaudet that highlights an incisive and implacable percussion, and in a Loriod with a softer touch than in other participations of the same work and always outstanding in all! What makes Wit-Naxos annoying is that it comes cut into two discs. I must say that I like the piano more in Chung (Loriod) than in Chailly; but I could be happy with any of the interpretations. I add one that I really like and that I forgot: the great interpretation of Hans Rosbaud from 1951 !! I also have Hans Vonk, Ozawa, Lintu, Salonen, Janowski, Tortellier, Nagano, Previn, and Louis de Froment. I mention all these that I have to affirm that the ones I liked the most and with whom I could be happy are Chailly, Chung and Hans Rosbaud. Best regards
Vast pretensions and nosense of humour whatsoever. A wonderfully concise summing up. This work, the Poemes pour Mi, and a couple of the organ works are about all I can manage. I have a soft spot for Turangalila. It's totally bonkers. Boulez called it brothel music, and Stravinsky said it was more embarrassment than riches . Both were right, but it's too much fun to be sniffy about. I have the Antoni Wit Naxos recording. It may not be the best, but it works for me and has a coupling of L'Ascension, which is a great early work,.
Hey David: are there any compositions you would consider 'sequels' to the Turangalila-Symphonie? As in, the extensive usage of the ondes martenot, or otherwise evoking a zany, romantic cosmic drama? Might be an interesting topic for a future video!
Heard Previn conduct this with the Pittsburgh Symphony. Some boos at the end. But, I found it very engaging. I bought it, and currently the only disc in my collection is Chung with the Bastille Orchestra. I agree with your assessment, but do not like the work well enough to get another. I have always thought that if Messiaen took four or five of the movements, carefully selected, he would have a very good and popular symphony. I may have to get the Wit recording, as I really enjoy his work.
Actually, Messiaen did just as you suggest. He offers several "suites" taken from the whole so as to permit partial performances. No one ever does it, but it's a legitimate option. I think the problem is that the work is so elaborate and extravagant in its demands (especially the Ondes Martinot and other keyboard parts) that it makes no sense to spend the time and money only to do selections.
i think Messiaen's lack of a sense of humour is actually the reason why his work is refreshingly free of self-censorship, it has a positive kind of "tastelessness" - if he had a sense of humour he might not have been capable of writing the galloping psychedelic space-cowboy music of the "joie du sang" movement, he may have realised how silly the bloody piece is. my mum thought it was hilarious, so do i. i have a deep love of the Chailly recording because I think the Ondes playing is beautifully done.
Chailly for me (he usually does this kind of offbeat repertoire really well - his Varese?) Previn great also. I got the Wit recently and it's waiting for my attention (so little time, so much to listen to).
...maybe you should tell us about your most interesting live concert experiences over the years ? Not „maybe” - you should! I’am wonder how it was to hear CSO with LB live in Shostakovich 7th for example! Really!Cheers from Poland!
By the way, I've always wondered if somebody has invented a PC or Apple program that could substitute for an Ondes Martenot. With the mouse you could do all the glissando or vibrato effects. The piece is limited because of its inclusion of this severely dated instrument. Surely it could be imitated by something that you could do with a laptop and a Midi keyboard...
Previn conducts Messiaen and this is a great performance? What a delightful surprise! Don't you like Chung's?! I enjoyed his recording instead :D the Antoni Wit's is the best...
I grew up with the Previn recording on LP. I bought the Chailly recording some years back, and I was disappointed - I felt like it was all jumbled together. But I have to admit that after I had literally worn the grooves out of Previn's version, Chailly probably never had a chance. I do think the pianist does make a difference, and I thought Michel Beroff played the hell out of it, technically and musically.
"It is so easy to forget everything that Simon Rattle ever did." Bravo, Dave - dead on the money. It is no mean feat to attain the worst performance of the Oxford Symphony in history (among many others) Pity the poor citizens of London who must endure the quirks of the Man-Perm Warrior!! Best wishes, B
Oh my! Are you the satirist on Amazon who's always lampooning J.E. Gardiner? I don't always agree with you, but you've given me many chuckles over the years. Good stuff!
@@bernardohanlon3498 I thought I recognised the name! Yeah I don't always agree with you either, but you're right it would be a pretty worrying state of affairs if we all shared the same opinion! All power to your elbow!
I had the privilege of talking to Antoni Wit in person. He himself believes that recording of this symphony is one of his most important achievements in cavernous discography he did over the years...
How interesting! Thank you for sharing that.
I first heard this piece after nodding off during an FM radio broadcast of a Brahms chamber piece, then suddenly woke up in the middle of the first mvt of the Turangalila, of course without hearing the announcer's intro. I felt like I had awakened into a dream after being abducted by aliens. Never forgot that feeling, and it remains one of my favorite 20th C music experiences.
As a newbie to actively listening to, and studying, classical music, I have come to realize that there is what I see as a vast divide between only being exposed to this music via recordings and having access to see/hear it performed live in person. This symphony seems to be the perfect personification of the recording vs. live phenomenon. Sitting in my cabin in the Appalachian mountains in my comfy chair by the fireplace with my headphones on this piece is a chore that more than once made me want to stop listening to it and hurl my headphones across the room. Based on comments I have read and my own imagination, I think that to experience this symphony in an enormous hall with incredible acoustics and a packed audience would be a totally different experience. While listening to recommendations by Mr. Hurwitz, I am often dismayed that I do not have the same, or even remotely close to the same, responses to the music he so passionately talks about and have often thought it is my "untrained" ears that are betraying me but I think what is being lost in transition is the fact that I have not heard any of these pieces live. Like millions of other people in the USA, the only piece Mr. Hurwitz has talked about extensively that I have heard live has been the Nutcracker during a school field trip to the Fox Theater in Atlanta sometime during my middle school years. Since that school trip, I have seen the Atlanta Symphony play once at their performance hall in the early 90's but have no memory of what they performed and again, in a smaller touring format, at my local elementary school's small auditorium for a Christmas concert some time circa 2014. I also once saw a touring choir sing Handel's Messiah at a huge mega church in the suburbs of Atlanta back in the late 90's. Other than orchestra's that might have been playing during the handful of Broadway shows I have seen, or during touring productions of shows, that is the extent of my live experience of live classical music. I just want to remind all the people who comment about having seen live performances of these works just how lucky they are to have been able to experience so much great music and to give a special hug to all those parents or mentors who took them or encouraged them to become life long patrons/consumers of live performances. I will keep listening in my little cabin in the mountains and maybe one day I will be able to hear some of this wonderful music live too but for now I am just grateful for streaming and the chance to have all this music at my fingertips and for Mr. Hurwitz to help guide me through it all.
Great video! I've fallen in love with the Tarantula :-) symph long ago, first time i've heard it live was during a Messiaen Conservatoire project in the 80s, with Messiaen/the Loriods present, conducted by Reinbert de Leeuw; after that i saw Messiaen a couple of times at matinee concerts at the Concertgebouw. How you describe him , sitting in the concert hall, head bent over a large score, is just how it was, and the exuberant dresses by the Loriod sisters, thats exactly how it was. And how Yvonne Loriod could play, with her looks of an old fashioned french teacher...crystal clear is what i remember. I once sat close to the ondes martenot during a performance of the T.symph, conducted by that great Messiaen specialist Reinbert de Leeuw, and that was not particulary a joy for the ears. Wonderful imitation you did, LOL. Any idea why Bernstein never performed it again after the premiere, maybe his interests were with American music perhaps at the time?
I have often wondered the same thing, especially given that fact that Bernstein did do the Trois Petites Liturgies (and very well too), which I believe was a NY Phil commission.
@@DavesClassicalGuide On RUclips there is a wonderful great sounding rehearsal sequence with Bernstein/BSO, must have been quite a struggle to get all the rhythms right.
@@hiphurrah1 Yes, I've seen that.
Dear David. You shaped my sense for good classical performances. My library is full of your 10/10 reviews. Every year I am going to Munich at Ludwig Beck to buy from the list, you created. Thank you very much for your amazing work in classicsroday. Keep up your amazing and independed critical work.
Thank you. It's also good to know that Kaufhaus Beck is still in business, although I can't imagine what their classical section looks like. I knew their buyer a couple of decades ago and used to shop there as well when visiting friends in Munich.
@@DavesClassicalGuide They claim they have the biggest store for classical music in Europe. I am going to subscribe to your insider section again. I adore your honest, sharp and uncompromissed revies. I have just added Naxos version to my list. Also Hanssler classics for his orchestral works. I am your happy subscriber. I am so happy to see you in person. I am also a musical producer and director. But mostly for RUclips. Take care dear David.
"…or, if you’re Irish, it's the 'Tooralooraloora' Symphony…"
Brilliant review sir. Really enjoying your reviews yr humour and sometimes brutal but honest opinions. Invaluable. As for Messaien : yes unique and fascinating music
A long time audiophile and fan of music, but relatively new to the world of Classical music I have found your reviews very insightful and helpful especially in these comparisons. It seems that the best renditiond rely on both performance in terms of execution and emotion but also in sound quality.
Hi Mr. Hurwitz. Having just learned of this work by Messiaen, I was so happy to see that you have done a video on it. I will definitely look for the ones you recommend. Thanks.
I had the Ozawa record (with Takemitsu) when I was a teenager. I was obsessed with it. It was part of my "teenage rebellion", along with another Messiaen record ("Et Expecto"... conducted by Boulez), another Takemitsu record (Roger Woodward Plays Takemitsu, incl. Corona, London Version) and the (original manuscript) Carmina Burana recordings by Studio der frühen Musik. Most of the other kids at the time were listening to Led Zeppelin and Boston, which I didn't learn to like until later.
Here, here on the Wit!! And I agree on the Nagano because he conducts tempos like he`s trying so hard to get the whole thing onto one disk. It left me exhausted. In contrast, Mr. Wit takes his time and lets this unbelievable music breathe--especially in the last movement which I think I remember Nagano taking at a breakneck speed. There is so much going on and so much density throughout the work that I want to be able to pick out as many lines and layers that my ears can discern. It`s so much more fun that way. (I`d love to play it on a home sound system, buuut...after I took my new wife to a performance of Messiaen`s famous Quartet, she asked me to NOT take her to anything like that again. However, we did see DC`s NSO perform Revueltas` "La Noche de los Mayas" and at its conclusion she stood right up to give them a standing ovation. You never know sometimes, huh?)
Hi Dave, would you please consider giving us more Messiaen talks? I was lucky enough to be given two box sets, a 6 disc set from Naive Classique and a 32 disc DG set. My favorite recording so far is
Des canyons aux étoiles from the Naive Classique box. I’d enjoy hearing your thoughts.
I rarely listen to this work these days, but the one that sticks with me the most is Hans Rosbaud's mono recording with (of course) the SWF SO on Wergo. Of course it doesn't have the same quality of recorded sound or virtuosity as later recordings, but to my ears there's something just "right" about a lot of the tempi and phrasing.
Thank you for your excellent surveys! Just FYI, the box of Messiaen's orchestral works with Cambreling and the (now sadly defunct) SWR Symphony Orchestra (which includes the very good Turangalila you mention), has been reissued by Hänssler at a reasonable price.
Saw it with Stefan Asbury and the Tanglewood Music Center Orchestra at cozy Ozawa Hall in '16. These kids knocked it outta the park! I was in the 1st balcony directly over the orchestra. My ears are still ringing, and I think I'm still a little high.
I have, for years, attempted to appreciate this piece and the music of Messiaen in general, returning to it on occasion. Also the Quartet. I've also been to countless organ recitals that feature his music. Hours of uncomfortable, dissonant, generally unpleasant sounds with mystical-sounding titles like "The Glorious Body", "20 Gazes on the Christ Child", etc. It's like horror movie music, something to accompany a crime scene. I admit, I don't get it. It's agonizing to hear, no matter how wonderful the performances themselves. During one period when I was trying to appreciate Messiaen, I was describing his music to a lady I see occasionally at the dog park, and it wasn't sinking in. So, I whipped out my phone, fired up 20 Gazes, and politely waited for her reaction. "Is that a dog playing the piano? You know, how they have videos of dogs playing the piano?" I discretely changed the subject.
I had great hopes for this recording. I wish it had finally done the trick.
Chacun a son gout!
@@DavesClassicalGuide This I understand. What is incomprehensible to me is why, say, 20 gazes on the Christ Child, sounds so ugly. One would think that Messiaen was trying say baby Jesus was disfigured. When one compares the titles to the music itself, it is as if there is no relation between them. Using his book (which I refer to as "How I Did It"), I once wrote a piece "by Messiaen" and fooled a few organist friends for awhile. I gave it the title "The Severed Breasts of St. Agatha" (Les seins coupés de Ste. Agathe), and it sounded pretty much like the horrifying title, and it also included latin passages in his Angelic Language (forcipibus, dextra, sinister). It was rather convincing, and for once the title matched the sound of the music.
That said, there are some genuinely gorgeous passages in Turangalîla. It's just the ones in between that grate.
@@gregstanton7321 I don't think it sounds ugly at all.
@@DavesClassicalGuide I think, were you to assemble a group of random people in a room, and play for them 20 Gazes, and then The Grosse Fugue, I believe 20 Gazes would be voted as more ugly than the Beethoven. But, you know, until this experiment is actually performed, we shall never really know.
There`s nothing wrong with you because that`s like me with music by Elliott Carter. I just don`t get it. Like you I try on occasion to listen to something of his figuring that I`m missing something that I`ll eventually understand. I never do! Evidently my "appreciation receptors" just aren`t tuned to his style. Some people, though, say they love it. I guess I`m more of a textures kind of guy. Messiaen certainly loves them. In that sense that`s why I find music of Xenakis sort of intriguing as his is mostly textures. Yet....I find "art" by Jackson Pollock abhorrent. Go figure.
Some 15 years ago I got a lot of interest in classical music (and never looked back) and got a 10 or so concert subscription at the local concert hall (now I do volunteer work there, that gets me to see a lot of concerts for free). One of the pieces I chose was Turangalila and I was totally blown away, being used so far to Mozart, Beethoven, etc. The funny thing is, years later I saw or read an interview with Esa-Pekka Salonen in which he said Turangalila was his first contact with modern classical music.
Salonen's experience is similar to mine. As a sixteen-year-old in 1993, I was completely into blues and reggae, until I could go to concerts in the Vredenburg music center in Utrecht for 10 guilders (about 5 USD at the time). I didn't want to go alone, but I took a friend from school with me. We chose the Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra, because it was the best orchestra in the Netherlands at the time. The program included the Turangalila symphony with Chailly. My friend left halfway through, but I was completely blown away. I remained fascinated until the end. From that moment on, my love for classical music was born. Funny how that is possible, maybe because you need these kinds of extreme experiences during puberty. Because it is quite an extreme piece for an inexperienced sixteen-year-old boy
Thanks again David for encouraging me to listen to a great piece I've basically ignored for 30 years. I heard the piece 3 times live in 1987-1988: London with Previn, Chicago with Mehta, and St. Louis (maybe with Slatkin?). kind of burned me out on the piece--listened after your review and got blown away again!
That's great--you made my day!
First classical piece that I really got into & realised some classical music was for me.
Opened a lot of doors 🚪
I am really happy that you, too, prefer Wit. I am overwhelmed by his performance: Just the right tempi, fantastically clear concerning the sound layers, wonderful the dark brass, well balanced the bassoons in the statue theme, and I like also that jazzy touch of the trumpets in the Finale (although Messiaen always pointed out to be the only French composer of his generation not to have had a flirt with jazz - but he had, in my opinion). I buyed the Wit, because I made an interesting experience with him: Wit's recording of Messiaen's "Eclairs sur l'Au-Delà" was the first or at least the only one I could get, back then. I just wanted to listen to the work, not to the conductor. After a while, there came other recordings, but none of them I got to know had the same impact an fire like Wit's had. And after the "Turangalila" I know that this conductor has the right hand for the great orchestra cycles of Messiaen. Chailly is also very good, I know, but Wit's is my most played "Turangalila".
I’ve so enjoyed the Erato-Warner Messiaen Edition, so much so that I don’t feel the urge to buy any more-wait... maybe that’s not such a good sign after all!
Honestly speaking, I found that quantity of music satisfying and interesting, but also realized I didn’t feel the urge to explore his organ or orchestral music any further.
Before that, I had also enjoyed Peter Hill and Peter Serkin in the piano works.
Unfortunately, the Erato-Warner box has Nagano, and that’s the only version of Turangalila I’ve heard. Upon your recommendations I’ve added the others to my RUclips playlist. Your reviews are showing me that my orchestral collection is lacking and that there’s so much to explore. Thanks for the ideas!
Thank you. I'm glad you found a reason to "keep on listening!"
The Wit is my new favorite recording.
Thank you, Dave Hurwitz. You clean the scales from the eyes of our ears: and bring head and heart, encyclopedic knowledge and deep experience, razor-sharp acuity and tender compassion into a very fine-tuned equilibrium. Great artists need great critics. Thanks for so fearlesslytaking your unique place in the life of this phenomenon - music - without which, as Holst said to VW, life itself would not be worth living. We need you! Keep it up!!!
Soooo.......what`s your favorite rendition of John Cage`s 4'33"?
Check out the video.
My first choices: Chailly and Chung are my picks. The first highlights more the dark side and the violent contrasts of the work. while Chung emphasizes more the impressionist side. This is even seen in the performance of the piano in Thibaudet that highlights an incisive and implacable percussion, and in a Loriod with a softer touch than in other participations of the same work and always outstanding in all!
What makes Wit-Naxos annoying is that it comes cut into two discs. I must say that I like the piano more in Chung (Loriod) than in Chailly; but I could be happy with any of the interpretations. I add one that I really like and that I forgot: the great interpretation of Hans Rosbaud from 1951 !! I also have Hans Vonk, Ozawa, Lintu, Salonen, Janowski, Tortellier, Nagano, Previn, and Louis de Froment. I mention all these that I have to affirm that the ones I liked the most and with whom I could be happy are Chailly, Chung and Hans Rosbaud.
Best regards
Definitely a fan of Chung too... Love how he holds the ending (s)... Let's them really rip... Excuse my layman's terms
I will say, I just listened to Vit and it's very impressive. Definitely worth a shot.
Vast pretensions and nosense of humour whatsoever. A wonderfully concise summing up. This work, the Poemes pour Mi, and a couple of the organ works are about all I can manage. I have a soft spot for Turangalila. It's totally bonkers. Boulez called it brothel music, and Stravinsky said it was more embarrassment than riches . Both were right, but it's too much fun to be sniffy about. I have the Antoni Wit Naxos recording. It may not be the best, but it works for me and has a coupling of L'Ascension, which is a great early work,.
It is certainly one of the best.
Hey David: are there any compositions you would consider 'sequels' to the Turangalila-Symphonie? As in, the extensive usage of the ondes martenot, or otherwise evoking a zany, romantic cosmic drama? Might be an interesting topic for a future video!
Personally really enjoy the Osborne performance with the Bergen Phil on Hyperion! Always found it a well-rounded performance.
Heard Previn conduct this with the Pittsburgh Symphony. Some boos at the end. But, I found it very engaging. I bought it, and currently the only disc in my collection is Chung with the Bastille Orchestra. I agree with your assessment, but do not like the work well enough to get another. I have always thought that if Messiaen took four or five of the movements, carefully selected, he would have a very good and popular symphony. I may have to get the Wit recording, as I really enjoy his work.
Actually, Messiaen did just as you suggest. He offers several "suites" taken from the whole so as to permit partial performances. No one ever does it, but it's a legitimate option. I think the problem is that the work is so elaborate and extravagant in its demands (especially the Ondes Martinot and other keyboard parts) that it makes no sense to spend the time and money only to do selections.
i think Messiaen's lack of a sense of humour is actually the reason why his work is refreshingly free of self-censorship, it has a positive kind of "tastelessness" - if he had a sense of humour he might not have been capable of writing the galloping psychedelic space-cowboy music of the "joie du sang" movement, he may have realised how silly the bloody piece is. my mum thought it was hilarious, so do i. i have a deep love of the Chailly recording because I think the Ondes playing is beautifully done.
Chailly for me (he usually does this kind of offbeat repertoire really well - his Varese?) Previn great also. I got the Wit recently and it's waiting for my attention (so little time, so much to listen to).
That's what pandemics are for!
...maybe you should tell us about your most interesting live concert experiences over the years ? Not „maybe” - you should! I’am wonder how it was to hear CSO with LB live in Shostakovich 7th for example! Really!Cheers from Poland!
Where to start...I think it's best mention them in course of talking about the works in question, and I will!
David Hurwitz as you wish :-) waiting for your stories then.best.Damian
By the way,
I've always wondered if somebody has invented a PC or Apple program that could substitute for an Ondes Martenot. With the mouse you could do all the glissando or vibrato effects.
The piece is limited because of its inclusion of this severely dated instrument. Surely it could be imitated by something that you could do with a laptop and a Midi keyboard...
Or you could use a theremin--there are many ways to do it.
Previn conducts Messiaen and this is a great performance? What a delightful surprise! Don't you like Chung's?! I enjoyed his recording instead :D the Antoni Wit's is the best...
I find Chung too soft and rather dull.
I grew up with the Previn recording on LP. I bought the Chailly recording some years back, and I was disappointed - I felt like it was all jumbled together. But I have to admit that after I had literally worn the grooves out of Previn's version, Chailly probably never had a chance.
I do think the pianist does make a difference, and I thought Michel Beroff played the hell out of it, technically and musically.
Oh dear ......reminds me of Tom and Jerry......at least he taught Boulez
"It is so easy to forget everything that Simon Rattle ever did." Bravo, Dave - dead on the money. It is no mean feat to attain the worst performance of the Oxford Symphony in history (among many others) Pity the poor citizens of London who must endure the quirks of the Man-Perm Warrior!! Best wishes, B
Oh my! Are you the satirist on Amazon who's always lampooning J.E. Gardiner? I don't always agree with you, but you've given me many chuckles over the years. Good stuff!
QP, I suppose that must be me. Thanks for the kind words - and it would be a very boring place if we all agreed with one another. Best wishes, B
@@bernardohanlon3498 I thought I recognised the name! Yeah I don't always agree with you either, but you're right it would be a pretty worrying state of affairs if we all shared the same opinion! All power to your elbow!
I don't think that's me, since I always publish under my own name.
Whoops. I see it's Mr. O'Hanlon, More power to ya!
Dudamel with Yujah Wang is territic. Some of the best is not cd.
The Witt is excellent. I heard that Bernstein did not like the piece.