Richter -- these were the performances that taught a very young me what Bach choral works sounded like. And despite all the changes in Bach performance over the years, they remain my ideal. Long lines, wonderful sense of architecture, and they *move*, maybe not swiftly, but inexorably, toward a goal. The B Minor is indeed a joy -- thanks for the reminder.
Dave - greetings from the Penal Colonies. I am glad that someone else finds the two Passions daunting. Anyway, here are my preferences, which I offer in way of an alternative: Christmas Oratorio - Karl Richter 1964. With the likes of Wunderlich and Janowitz on board, it is a world-beater. Matthew Passion - Karajan 1972. Rejoice in the Herbie Soup! John Passion - Forster EMI, again, where Wunderlich is centre-stage. Magnificat- Munchinger on Decca - great stuff. Mass in B Minor - while it is on DVD rather than CD, Karl Richter's September 1969 performance on DG is a joy to watch and behold. Best wishes, B
I listened to 15 or 20 B Minor Mass albums at one point, and for all my interest in period performance, my favorite by far was by the Bach-Collegium Stuttgart under Rilling, the one with Thomas Quasthoff singing one of the baritone arias. One of my trumpet teachers used to say that the trumpet section, not the violins, were the heroes in Bach’s orchestra, and the B Minor Mass contains some of the most incredible trumpet writing in music history. The Stuttgart orchestra realizes those parts just about perfectly, including the extremely difficult trumpet solo in “Patrem Omnipotentem.” Like you I don’t care for the one singer per part approach - one conductor noted that with three trumpets playing, you won’t be able to hear the choir if it’s just four singers. My favorites in the other Bach choral works are mostly on period instruments, but it’s Rilling by a mile for me in the B Minor Mass.
Yes, they're both marvellous - which surprised me a bit, given that I associate Chailly with music of more recent vintage on a larger scale. In similar vein, I also enjoyed Solti's B Minor Mass and Matthew Passion with the Chicago Symphony; he also recorded a fine Messiah with them.
Dear David, A complete study of Bach's music would take a lifetime! At 58 I don't have enough time! But I am doing my best. Only Haydn takes a significant amount of my time otherwise these days. I leaned my Beethoven and Brahms as a child ... Best wishes from George PS: I had the B Minor from Jochum on LPs in the old days. Another bullseye! Saint Matthew Passion, Klemperer also on LPs. Two bullseyes! PPS: In order, Magnificat, Corboz, Erato [modern instruments]. Lovely performance with joyfulness as well as clarity. Mass in B minor, No recording at present, but will search for the Jochum again. I wore this out on LP. Very fond of the music. Christmas Oratorio, No recording at present, and perhaps not my favourite Bach. Last listened to at a Concert in Hereford Cathedral in the 1990s with a top historical instrument band and excellent local chorus. It was a very long evening and cold in the early winter time! Saint John Passion, Britten [modern instruments], and Gardiner [histroric instruments]. Not quite convinced by either. I played it four times in professional ad-hoc bands in my time, and am immensely fond of the music. Saint Matthew Passion, Mogens Woldike/ Vienna State Opera Orchestra, and stellar soloists and wonderful Choir. [modern instruments, but not a full sized symphony orchestra - something about the size or a modern chamber sized band, but obviously more being divided as two separate sections so that when they combine the effect is rather grand like Klemperer. Issued on Vanguard Classics, recording from about 1956] You have caused me to dig this Matthew out again with your video. I realise that it is three years since I listened to more than Mache Dich [Woldike set a wonderfully spacious tempo here], and I shall not sleep till morning! Now I hope that you forgive me for being rather fond of the Woldike recording - all three hours and twenty minutes of it. He was a great Dane! [Also recorded - at a time when it almost unheard of - a great deal of Buxterhude]. The approach is almost as magisterial as Klemperer, except in the recitatives, which though never rushed, are beautifully timed for flow and clarity, making for an easier listen in one go right through. I have listened to this performance twice in the last five years, right through without loss of concentration. I never managed the Klemperer LPs, except by dividing it in two as half in the afternoon, then supper and the rest in the evening! Also I am half Norwegian with Danish ancestors in the early 19th. century. Woldike is about a sixth cousin of mine a few times removed generationally via my grandmother! I also have Leonhardt, but Woldike eclipses this [historical instrument] recording for me now, so it may be given away one day. Keep well, and best wishes for a quick recovery from your surgery. Best wishes from George
My personal choices: Magnificat: Elly Ameling (soprano), Helen Watts (contralto), Werner Krenn (tenor), Tom Krause (bass), Wiener Akademichor, Stuttgart Chamber Orchestra, Karl Munchinger (Decca). Munchinger has always been a great Bach conductor, both in his instrumental and vocal works (his Orchestral Suites on Decca are marvellous), and his recording of the Magnificat is absolutely splendid. With fabulous soloists and the Stuttgart Chamber Orchestra, who plays beautifully, it's my reference recording of the Magnificat. Mass in B minor: Margaret Marshall (soprano), Dame Janet Baker (soprano II/contralto), Robert Tear (tenor), Samuel Ramey (bass), Academy & Chorus of St. Martin in the Fields, Sir Neville Marriner (Philips). This has always been my favourite interpretation (closely followed by Richter and Schreier), and I go back to it all the time. It features first-class soloists (including Janet Baker) and the ASMF plays beautifully under Marriner. It's stylish, musical, intelligent and the chorus is absolutely fabulous. Christmas Oratorio: I agree with your choice. Jochum's recording has always been a favourite of mine, with FANTASTIC soloists and a magnificent choir, it's a classic that has definitely stood the test of time. St. John Passion & St. Matthew Passion: I've gone through a couple "favourite" versions of the Passions, first of all the Jochum recordings on Philips, then the Gardiner recordings on DG then finally my present one is Schreier on Philips. I have nothing much to say about it, because you've already described every aspect of the Schreier recordings, and I agree with everything you said.
In the early 60s I had the pleasure of hearing the B minor Mass performed by Karl Richter and the Munich Bach Choir and Orchestra at Constitution Hall in Washington DC with some of the same soloists as in the recording you featured. It was amazing. Richter conducted the entire work without music! One thing I found fascinating was that in those arias which also featured a solo instrument such as the violin , French horn, or oboe the solo instrumentalists would stand up while they played, which made it seem more like a duet. I prefer Richter in the Christmas Oratorio and Magnificat as well.
At last!! I have waited for months for this talk to appear. As a Swedish lutheran I feel an affinity whith Bach. As for the performances I think you are right when choosing Klemperer, Richter, Jochum, and Schreier as conductors. Now I am waiting for the talk about the cantatas. All 200.😉
What an interesting and stimulating talk on the ideal Bach major, non-period style, choral works. Basically, I feel we come from the same place, although the individual choices might be different by a whisker. I'm not that familiar with the Magnificat, so I won't quibble with your choices on that one (but your enthusiasm about the work will certainly make me consult the cd-shelves and this time round listen more carefully!). Mass in B minor: the late Danish- German critic, Hansgeorg Lenz, encountered Karl Richter, when he was in Copenhagen to record some Bach works on the organ of Jægersborg Kirke. They came to discuss the Mass in B and Richter asked mr. Lenz, what he thought of his recording of it. Lenz, knowing that Richter could be very touchy and easily offended by critic of any kind, tried to avoid answering. Richter pressed on, as he sensed, that mr. Lenz had some reservations, and asked directly: "What is it, you don't like about it?" Lenz, tentatively: "Eh, well, right from the beginnig, the large kyrie chorus..." - "What do you find wanting?" - "Ehmmm...". Richter: "Do you know of anyone, who does it better?" - "To be honest, yes, Klemperer". "Yes!" said Richter enthusiastically, "Klemperer's sostenuto, right? I miss that in my own interpretation. How does he do it? Klemperer's sostenuto in Bach! I haven't come to terms with that yet ...". The soloists are no slouches either: Agnes Giebel, Janet Baker, Nicolai Gedda, Hermann Prey and Franz Crass. So I will side with Karl Richter and put Klemperer's recording (EMI/Warner) at the top of my list! Christmas oratorio: No one - as in no one! - beats Richter (DG) in this work. His is the version to choose for sheer exuberance, foreward propulsive drive, but also sensitive expressivity. As much as I love Jochum in this work - and wouldn't be without his recording, he can only be my second choice (but for the same qualities, that mr. Hurwitz highlights). Richter's stellar lineup of soloists is indisputably the best in the universe (to take my recourse to the use of hyperbole as is so often mr. Hurwitz' habit - and, please, remember, we are talking non-period style here): Gundula Janowitz radiant (and for once with a somewhat clearer diction than what marred some of her later recordings), Christa Ludwig (listen to that lulluby in the 2nd cantata!), the irreplaceable Fritz Wunderlich, and lastly the inimitable, warm sonorous bass of Franz Crass. The only drawback of this recording is due to the criminal idiodicy of DG/Universal: in every incarnation on cd of this recording, they have slavishly adhered to the layout of the LP-version, i.e. spread the second cantata to the next disc, although the whole cantata easily could have been fitted in in its entirety on the first disc together with the first cantate. GRRRRRRRR! St. John Passion: I can most heartily concur with the reflections of mr. Hurwitz. And though my personal first choice would have been to settle for Jochum, I have to apply to the rules, and must reserve him for later - thus without any second thoughts: Britten it is! St. Matthew Passion: I can only be in total aggreement with what mr. Hurwitz says about Klemperer's recording of this work. And fully understand why he chooses it as his prime recommendation. I've seen Klemperer's approach to Bach foolishly being characterized as romantic (probably due to his broad tempi and not shying away from letting the music sound grand and magnificent, when it is) - but nothing could be farther from the truth! Although influenced by 'Neue Sachlichkeit' (litt.trans. 'New Objectivity') maybe it's more appropriate to see Klemperer in his Bach-style as a law unto himself. HIPsters might sneeringly dismiss him, not knowing that he in fact could be considered the great-grandfather of their own stylistic efforts. According to Peter Heyworth, Klemperer's biographer, Klemperer as early as 1921 directed a performance of the Brandenburger Concerto No. 1 in F from the harpsichord! Heyworth further commented on that performance: "His decision to give the work with soli instruments (a decision that excited much comment) suggests that, unlike most conductors of his generation, he no longer concieved the music in terms of ninetenth-century orchestral sonorities". In February 1929 Klemperer opened a concert with a performance of the Brandenburg Concerto No.6, again directing it from the harpsicord, and with all seven parts played by soloists, who included Wolfsthal, Hindemith and Eva Heinitz on instruments borrowed from the Musichochschule. The latter played the viola da gamba, an instrument so rare at the time, that she claimed to have been the only player of it in Berlin! Accidentially, among the obbligato instruments in Klemperer's recording of the St. Matthew Passion you will notice, that an oboe d'amore, an oboe da caccia as well as a viola da gamba figure. For a romantic approach at its fullest (willfullest, some would say) you can turn to Willem Mengelberg. His 1939 recording with the Concertgebouw Orchestra (Naxos) is not for the faint of heart HIPster, nor for those unwilling to go on a little musico-archaeological expedition. The performance is far away from our contemporary conception of an appropriate Bach style (be it period or non-period), and might be seen as a relic of how Bach was conceived in the mid to late 19th century, the time from which Mengelberg stemmed. It's a highly subjective, grandiose, and in many instances moving interpretation - and with an Evangelist for the ages in the German tenor, Karl Erb. If you are a newcomer to the work, though - or if Klemperer's and Mengelberg's approaches to the work, no matter how antigonistically different they are, are too hard for you to stomach, my prime recommendation would be Eugen Jochum's recording (Philips/Universal). His is a more fleet, though in no way superficial, deepfelt interpretation. Its a performance of deep pathos (in the most positive sense of the word), not, though, too heavily overloaded with the protestant, guilt-ridden Angst, mentioned by mr. Hurwitz. One senses Jochum's musicality in every bar, as well as the human geniality, that his music making always exuded. Maybe because he was a deeply believing catholic, one feels he, even in the anguished parts of the passions, never lost sight of the ressurection and the redemption of man kind, that ensued from it. Among his soloists count Haefliger (Evangelist), Giebel, Höffgen, van Kesteren, Berry and Crass. The Netherlands Radio Choir and the Concertgebouw Orchestra acquit themselves with aplomb, one certainly senses their devotion to the man at the helmet. The historically curious should not devoid themselves of the intense and exciting, but at the same time sober, 1949 recording by Fritz Lehmann (Music&Arts). Among the soloists we find Elfriede Trötschel, Helmuth Krebs (a fine Evangelist) and last, but not least a very young Fischer-Dieskau in what must be his very first recording of the part of Jesus. It's a bit of a conondrum for me: Even if I love and mainly prefer Handel played in (musical) period style, I have never really heard Bach played by that crowd in a fashion, that I particularily liked. I'm therefor eagerly looking forward to be inspired by the talk on Bach's major choral works, part 2! PS. Best wishes for a fast dental recovery! Hopefully the dentist didn't mess you up too much - and succeeded in getting evetything, that was needed, over and done with the first time around!
Having spent a goodly portion of my life focused on Bach's choral music, I'm so happy to get further validation of my decades-old choices for the Matthew Passion and B Minor Mass. I've found many other performances enjoyable, but none as worthy of posterity as those by Klemperer and Richter. There are musical decisions made in both that are still thoroughly convincing. For example, the non-ritard cadence in Et Expecto is musicologically (and musically) correct while only being adhered to in few other performances. The grandeur and clarity of both versions have not been surpassed. Thank you!
Hi David. Thank you so much for this great video on Bach and his major choral works. Loved what you had to say and I also LOVE Bach and particularly his choral music. I have to say though....that I, personally, love the Passions and I do play them randomly (which is often) whenever I feel like it, because I just love them! 🤗 I don’t think I need psychiatric help....but you never know.... 😂😂
What you were saying about it being ok not to like the Great Works: I've never warmed to the B minor Mass. The first performance I heard in Rockefeller Chapel at U. Chicago I was bored silly. Since then I've listened to it occasionally trying to change my mind; it's grown on me a little but not a lot. I like even the more obscure cantatas (95% of them count as more obscure cantatas) and I listen to the passions around Easter, so it's not a problem with Bach. The Prey-Fischer-Dieskau rivalry was a bit like the Bing Crosby-Frank Sinatra rivalry. Prey would probably repeat Crosby's reported quip that Sinatra's [DFD's] voice was one in a lifetime but why did it have to come along in his lifetime.
Thank you very much for this topic. Get well again soon. As to the Christmas Oratorio I could not do without Karl Richter and the Bach Choir and Orchestra and his wonderful soloists (Janowitz, Ludwig, WUNDERLICH and Crass) and Kurt Thomas and his Thomanerchor and Gewandhausorchester (and four magnificent soloists- Agnes Giebel, Marga Höffgen, Josef Traxel and DFD).
So, David. I just listened to Honeck's Eroica and I am blown away. The best Eroica by a very great margin, easily. Send Szell, Karajan and Lenny home packing. Thx so much!
Robert Shaw's first performance of the B minor Mass was my first record of a Bach major choral work on lp (from 1960). One of the earlier versions with scaled down forces, it still holds up well on cd--and has the added bonus of Oscar Shumsky doing the solo violin parts.
I'll be looking forward to your survey of the ideal period-instrument recordings; frankly, they are generally my favorites, with only one exception, given below. That said, there are a number of enthralling modern instrument versions, the best of which, IMHO, are the following: Christmas Oratorio - Karl Münchinger (Decca). Great soloists, and the all-male choir sounds terrific with the distinctive timbre of boy sopranos. St. Matthew Passion - Karl Richter (Archiv) -- the earlier (1958?) performance with Haefliger and Fischer-Dieskau. This is actually my favorite Matthew of all, including HIP performances. Whenever I turn it on, I know it will be for the long haul; I just can't turn it off. St. John Passion - Fritz Werner (Erato) -- definitely old school, but worth anything for Frederike Sailer singing Ich folge dir gleichfalls mit freudigen Schritten. Magnificat- Marriner (EMI) -- good soloists, both vocal and orchestral. Mass in B Minor - Helmut Rilling (Hänssler) -- the 1999 version with Sibylla Rubens et al., which makes it, what, the 3rd from Rilling? the fourth? He did at least seven; and, as with other large families, sometimes the ones in the middle can get mixed up.
Klemperer: the best St Matthew Passion, the best German Requiem, the best Fidelio, the best Das Lied von der Erde... Brahms First Symphony... Violin concerto with Oistrack... etc., etc.
I want to thank you for approving people not liking and not getting emotionslly attached to seminal works. For me it's brahms symphonies, in particular the first. Only recently did I find a performance that made me like his 4th and 2 - kleiber. And I always felt bad for not becoming emotionally attached to the symphonies, and thank you for saying that it's ok to feel that way.
For the Christmas Oratorio, I have to mention Richter as an alternative. Fritz Wunderlich in the tenor part and Maurice Andre plays the finale better than anyone. So if you don't go with Richter in the B Minor Mass.......
I like those ideal cykles (+the others). I am not trying to copy them complete, because if I have Klemperer and Wand in LvB 4, I am not sufflering. But the cykles variations are great, and give ideas to supply the collection, Markevich LvB 5, McGegan in Haydn and many others. Such things gives me great pleasure to catch. It is also good to know, that Ozawas Prokofiev symphonies is to avoid. I love his RCA and DG box, and his R&J is splendid. So avoid comments are mostly welcome. From todays Bach, I think Richter should be my old newcomer, and I hope for a good suggestion in a new oldcomer in Magnificat, when we get there. In my amateur choir days, we write birthday songs on the Sicut canon, it is not easy to sing and laugh at the same time. But fun ;-) Great videos, and tons of wonderfull informations. Thanks a lot, also for the great clever comments.
You made my day! Just the recordings I would have pointed out. I thought, that in my comment I will add the St. John‘s Passion conducted by Britten - but not even that I can do. In fact, Britten’s is my favorite St. John, dramatic - and I think, it‘s perfect that Britten lets sing in English: The poetic level of the original is not high, and so it has the freshness of people coming together and singing the work. I admire this recording really. The Klemperer St. Matthew was in my earliest classical years my first Bsch and my first Klemperer - and no St Matthew could match it until today. The first and the last choral statement are incredible. I gain nothing from conductors who do it „the right way“, but leave me cold. Klemperer with his stony expressionist sound monument is the best one can get. That has nothing to do with Christianity, just with human suffering. Richter and Schreier are always good. Just the Barenboim is new to me, l‘ll give him a chance. Thanks, once more. PS.: I must add just one comment in case of the "Magnificat": Just heard for the 1st time the Gielen-recording and it's on the best way to become my favourite: It has a quality of joy and completely profane dance-like movement, which is very appealing to me.
My modern-instrument favourite Matthew Passion is Karl Münchinger's, possibly because it was the one I imprinted on, but it's a fine account nonetheless. I'm also very fond of Klemperer's, of course, and his cast of soloists never ceases to amaze me; even the smallest "bit-parts" are taken by such stalwarts as Helen Watts, Otakar Kraus, John Carol-Case and Geraint Evans.
For me Münchinger is a bit less than the sum of its parts despite Wunderlich, Ameling, Prey, it seems dramatically not that involved overall. But it must have been spectacular in the mid-1960s because it uses stereo to full effect for the double-choir+orchestra effect and actually more consistently than many later HIP recordings. My favorite non-HIP SMP for drama is Scherchen's from the 50s but it is so-so mono and the choir is not great.
@@bartolo498 The excellent Decca sound is one of the great features of the Münchinger recording, I agree. I seem to recall that it was produced by John Culshaw, but I may be wrong.
Thanks David, and with best regards and wishing you well soon. It was really a passionate Darstellung! I adore Klemperer's Mass in B minor and "HIS" Passion of course, but I am also a keen admirer of Corboz's Matthäus-Passion with orchestre de chambre de Lausanne, and the 'prima inter pares' Margaret Marshal, on Erato (1983). At first glance the rendering may seem to stand midway between modern and the so-called "authentic" performances. But the full sonority of the chamber orchestra especially in tuttis as always reveals it to be a truly modern and even a romantic reading, more in line with Jochum and Klemperer, than with Schreier, Harnoncourt, Leonhardt and Herreweghe. The forces of Lausanne and the soloists have responded warmly and vividly to the conductor who is obviously in total control of the minutest details, without immersion in frivolity or being idle. The recording is neat and faultless.
I consider that a recording conducted by Helmuth Rilling and his Stuttgart team should be included in any selection of modern instruments versions of Bach´s great choral works. Many of them fulfill your criterion: great soloists, good playing and a conductor with deep understanding of the works and a close relationship with the composer´s legacy. For instance, Rilling´s last version of the Magnificat on Hänssler has all of that combined with good sound quality. Maybe, some may consider Rilling´s approach sometimes boring or square, but I think that is not the case with most of his Bach recordings on Hänssler.
Hi Dave, was wondering about Rilling of course. Re Christmas Oratorio he has as you know the very outstanding one. 1985 with Auger, Schreier (you mentioned him), Hamari and Schöne) and the one I saw becoming real Christmas Oratorio from 1995 with Rilling and Oelze, Danz, Schade, Goerne, Quasthoff. Wait for more. Greetings to NYC
Your best ever, and not just because of the choices you made. What you say about these enormous Bach works, especially vis-a-vis the pre-HIP performances, is exactly right. So are your thoughts about the two Passions. Your usual combination of sophistication and smarts combines with a wonderful sense of humanity as you present these works. Thanks. I’m loving all your videos.
I agree with you about the St. Matthew Passion. Klemperer would also be my choice for the B Minor Mass. I know about the technical issues one might have with it. But I think, despite that, it's an incredible performance. And Janet Baker's Agnus Dei is unforgettable. My first choice for the Christmas Oratorio is Richter. I like the Jochum almost as much. I have an issue with some of the text of St. John's Passion, so I haven't listened to it in ages. But I own and have liked the old Karl Forster EMI recording which has an excellent cast of singers.
jeremy berman well, it is St. John. For Jesus Christ Superstar, Lloyd Webber (Julian’s brother) and Rice used a synoptic text but the objectionable parts of St. John were used, apparently without awareness of the lethal uses to which it has been put.
Just watched this (I only discovered your videos a few months ago). It's worth a mention about the Britten St John Passion that as well as being a great performance it's also sung in English which is a bonus.
Dave, do you know the 1956 Berlin Philharmonic Bach Christmas Oratorio record, under Lehmann and Arndt? I got a copy because Charlie Schlueter, the former principal trumpet of the Boston Symphony under Ozawa, loved this record growing up for Fritz Wesenigk’s trumpet playing, which he said sounds like a big bell being rung. I quite like the record overall.
Call me antediluvian, but the recording of the Matthew Passion I treasure for its total involvement and dedication is Mengelberg's--one of the best ways I know to pass two and a half hours. Liturgy goes down better with schmaltz, and even mushy Karajan's Bach sings to the soul, able to sustain rapture over the hours (with his great soloists, he is in no position to fail). Herreweghe, Koopman, and Suzuki are my favorites right now, but I still enjoy Solti's Matthew Passion. I wonder what it would have sounded like had he done it as a firebrand in 1959 instead of as an eminence in 30 years later. And of the firebrands, it is Scherchen whose Bach is perhaps most notable from that era. Even more than a Klemperer (or to name another favorite Bach conductor, Fritz Lehmann), it was Scherchen who made Bach's counterpoint electric and vital. His soloists are a who's who of Bach performance, though the choruses aren't at the Schreier or Klemperer level. Scherchen's Bach on Westminster is still gripping. Since you like composers conducting Bach, what about Georges Enescu's Bach B Minor Mass (Pears, Danco, Ferrier!) on BBC Legends and later Ariadne? His conducting is as musically penetrating and communicative as his landmark solo partitas. Another composer compelling in Bach was Bruno Maderna. Like everything else these days, his Bach can be sampled on YT.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Agreed, though Mengelberg has much more too...inexorable flow, the seductive portamenti, the utter darkness of it all. Spellbinding. For wind solos..hmmm. For "Aus liebe..." in the Matthew Passion, maybe the Kuijken recording. However...also the Karajan on DG: the flute player outshines Janowitz; give him a solo career! ;-) Then the big oboe aria, "Ich will bei meinem Jesu wachen..."...Yes, I bought the whole Bernstein Matthew Passion for Harold Gomberg, who also plays so well for Bruno Walter's Part 1, but my favorite oboe in this Matthew Passion aria is Robert Bloom, the Bach Aria Group, live, with tenor Jan Peerce (on CD from Boston Records). There are so many great recordings of oboists in this aria....
You are so right, all those passions and oratorios are no easy listening at all. I could imagine that it requires the christian faith and a certain degree of scripture knowledge. They sound to me like written and composed exclusively for them.
Dave, I got the Richter Mass based on your suggestion. Wow, the trumpets really resound! Only one trumpeter is listed in the booklet. But isn't it 3 players? The horn(s) seem less prominent. BTW, what do you think of the remastering? I felt it could be re-remastered. Sounds a touch murky at times, not as vivid as the performance warrants. PS: I recently sampled Bruggen's Mass in B and that one is also excellent and talk about a VIVID recording! Would love to own it outright on CD, but alas the CDs are impossible to find. I hope the CD revival is true and they'll start re-issuing (and re-remastering) all the classics! :D
Dear David, what's your take on Munchinger's Bach choral recordings? As for modern instruments, I've Rilling's first Magnificat (Sony/CBS) and his B Minor Mass on Hanssler, with which I'm very pleased. Thank you.
I was told that St Matthew's Gospel presents Christ as victim, whereas St John presents him more as victor. I think that's reflected in the tone of the two Passions
There are two choirs performing on the Klemperer St. Matthew's Passion, the Philharmonia Choir and the Boys Of Hampstead Parish Church Choir. But the liners give no clue as to which is "Chor I" and which is "Chor II." Is it safe to assume the Boys are "Chor II" as they are deployed less often? I don't have the ear to pick up the difference.
No. The boys sing the choral in the opening chorus among other places. The two main choirs consist of the Philharmonia choir divided in two, and they perform throughout.
I'm not sure about the wheezing piano quote, but I love Sir Thomas Beecham's description of the harpsichord sounding like "two skeletons copulating on a tin roof" :)
Thanks for splitting your presentation between modern and period instruments. I hate the sound of period instruments and the reforms inspired by the HIP movement are just as misguided as serialism, in my opinion. While I will probably listen to part two because I like your presentations (even if I don't like the music you discuss), I'm glad I can come back to this video when I look for something to buy.
"Mache dich, mein Herze, rein" is among the most beautiful and moving things Bach wrote. Congratulations go to Otto Klemperer for absolutely ruining it with an absurdly slow tempo. Quite an achievement, but no thanks. Richter 1979, for me, though I think mid-20th century performances tend to sound rather anachronistic and ponderous next to period informed performances.
I wonder if there's an age difference in the comments here. I can see how period performances can make Klemperer sound slow, but all of this business about "unlistenable" or "ruining" it is just nonsense. Obviously many people listen to it, and enjoy it, so it's not problem for them.
@@DavesClassicalGuide But his tempo is uniquely slow. Gonnenwein, Richter, Karajan et al, are all markedly quicker. It's not just a case of period versus 'big band' performances; Klemperer is out on his own here. Richter 1979 is a beautiful performance (I'd count Richter as period informed, to a degree). I didn't say it's "unlistenable", but I do believe he ruins arias such as "Mache dich..."
Best lines: 1) "You know the story: Jesus gets crucified. End of story." Ha ha. 2) ..."in the history of Germanity".. I agree with everything you say, but I do love the Passions, not for their grimness, but for the sense of humanity, comfort and forgiveness. Bach was quite a theologian, which can be heard in his music - how he characterizes different people in the story and also the arias, is quite enlightening... Your approach to all these is spot on, but, for me the Klemperer is unlistenable... Best singers ever, but the tempi... I just can't...
@@JackBurttrumpetstuff Nah. Just majestic. Bach wrote lots of notes; it's nice to have the time to hear them. Besides, no need to listen all at once, especially at home. You can take your punishment in small doses. Eventually, immunity sets in.
Gosh. I’m a big fan of Karl Richter’s recordings, but although I’m also a fan of a lot of Kelmpere’s work, I just can’t stand his Matthew Passion, sorry! It’s unbearably slow, and we just can’t un-hear all the other recordings that do not move at that dirge-like pace. I really couldn’t recommend it to anyone who hasn’t heard the work before. Not as bad as going to the dentist though, so I hope your mouth is feeling a bit better....
@@DavesClassicalGuide Well, I know we are not going to agree on this, and thats OK. You've obviously listened to the Klemperer recording over many years, sometimes (as you say, as you don't especially like the work). Maybe its because unlike you I am a sort of northern "protestant type", from Scotland, I feel the concept at some subliminal level differently from yourself (or Klemperer!) Tempo might matter because there's quite a lot of dancing going on in the Matthew Passion - including in the opening and closing choruses (I believe, a rather complicated gigue and a sarabande respectively). I don't think you'd really know at Klemperer's speeds. I was thinking about something you said about showing a work at its best advantage, and (for me) the Klemperer here is a great example of a great conductor, soloists, great recording conditions, orchestra and choir, but this doesn't result in a positive realisation of the work. (I am using the Karajan 1970s box s a footrest as I type, and I'm also a bit scared of listening to the very long St Matthew in there, which I'll concede is likely worse!) I'm looking forward to your discussion of the HIP versions - but as I think others have said, Chailly in Leipzig shows how a recent recording can do it very well on modern instruments. Do you like that?
And thanks for making me think about this. Part of the problem, David, without disparaging any particular faith tradition, is a certain perversity in Christianity (I do go to church when I can). Surely the passion story, and Bach’s construction of it, has many moments of reflection and inevitably dark turns. But for his audience and I guess for many Christians today, the trial and crucifixion of Jesus is (perversely maybe) an occasion for joy. Easter is the most important festival in the calendar here and it’s fundamentally happy because what is seen as a commemoration of a world-historical event. So the opening double chorus of this passion should sound a little moody, sure, but it should definitely sound happy and joyful too. And the dance is part of conveying this. If you do get around to some of the cantatas too, well, all those arias about blood and wounds etc, yes, not my cup of tea either, but these are, within that tradition, joyful reflections too. Weird right? And can well understand why you’d want to keep your difference from Lutheran things in general
@@murraylow4523 I do like Chailly, but then I like both approaches. As I said, I think this may be a generational thing. I want to leave you with this review on ClassicsToday.com by my partner, David Vernier, who is as hard core a period instrument guy as they come. I think he described Klemperer more eloquently that I can, but I agree with him completely. Here is what he had to say about it: "That opening chorus!-a nearly 12-minute marvel of Klempererian engineering-of musical forces and Bach’s complex yet perfect design-whose conception and extraordinary execution uniquely captures the profundity and power of Bach’s music. That’s what hooked me, at about age 13, my first encounter with the St. Matthew Passion, because someone in charge of compiling music selections for Time-Life’s record club elected to include that and a few other excerpts from Klemperer’s complete St. Matthew recording on a Baroque music LP set.
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Richter -- these were the performances that taught a very young me what Bach choral works sounded like. And despite all the changes in Bach performance over the years, they remain my ideal. Long lines, wonderful sense of architecture, and they *move*, maybe not swiftly, but inexorably, toward a goal. The B Minor is indeed a joy -- thanks for the reminder.
My pleasure!
Richter. Same to me
Dave - greetings from the Penal Colonies. I am glad that someone else finds the two Passions daunting. Anyway, here are my preferences, which I offer in way of an alternative:
Christmas Oratorio - Karl Richter 1964. With the likes of Wunderlich and Janowitz on board, it is a world-beater.
Matthew Passion - Karajan 1972. Rejoice in the Herbie Soup!
John Passion - Forster EMI, again, where Wunderlich is centre-stage.
Magnificat- Munchinger on Decca - great stuff.
Mass in B Minor - while it is on DVD rather than CD, Karl Richter's September 1969 performance on DG is a joy to watch and behold.
Best wishes, B
Your passion and dedication are just INCREDIBLE! Thank you so much!
My pleasure!
I listened to 15 or 20 B Minor Mass albums at one point, and for all my interest in period performance, my favorite by far was by the Bach-Collegium Stuttgart under Rilling, the one with Thomas Quasthoff singing one of the baritone arias. One of my trumpet teachers used to say that the trumpet section, not the violins, were the heroes in Bach’s orchestra, and the B Minor Mass contains some of the most incredible trumpet writing in music history. The Stuttgart orchestra realizes those parts just about perfectly, including the extremely difficult trumpet solo in “Patrem Omnipotentem.” Like you I don’t care for the one singer per part approach - one conductor noted that with three trumpets playing, you won’t be able to hear the choir if it’s just four singers. My favorites in the other Bach choral works are mostly on period instruments, but it’s Rilling by a mile for me in the B Minor Mass.
For the Christmas Oratorio and St. Matthew Passion I have found Chailly’s recording highly captivating.
Yes, they're both marvellous - which surprised me a bit, given that I associate Chailly with music of more recent vintage on a larger scale. In similar vein, I also enjoyed Solti's B Minor Mass and Matthew Passion with the Chicago Symphony; he also recorded a fine Messiah with them.
Dear David,
A complete study of Bach's music would take a lifetime! At 58 I don't have enough time!
But I am doing my best. Only Haydn takes a significant amount of my time otherwise these days.
I leaned my Beethoven and Brahms as a child ...
Best wishes from George
PS: I had the B Minor from Jochum on LPs in the old days. Another bullseye! Saint Matthew Passion, Klemperer also on LPs. Two bullseyes!
PPS: In order,
Magnificat, Corboz, Erato [modern instruments]. Lovely performance with joyfulness as well as clarity.
Mass in B minor, No recording at present, but will search for the Jochum again. I wore this out on LP. Very fond of the music.
Christmas Oratorio, No recording at present, and perhaps not my favourite Bach. Last listened to at a Concert in Hereford Cathedral in the 1990s with a top historical instrument band and excellent local chorus. It was a very long evening and cold in the early winter time!
Saint John Passion, Britten [modern instruments], and Gardiner [histroric instruments]. Not quite convinced by either. I played it four times in professional ad-hoc bands in my time, and am immensely fond of the music.
Saint Matthew Passion, Mogens Woldike/ Vienna State Opera Orchestra, and stellar soloists and wonderful Choir. [modern instruments, but not a full sized symphony orchestra - something about the size or a modern chamber sized band, but obviously more being divided as two separate sections so that when they combine the effect is rather grand like Klemperer. Issued on Vanguard Classics, recording from about 1956]
You have caused me to dig this Matthew out again with your video. I realise that it is three years since I listened to more than Mache Dich [Woldike set a wonderfully spacious tempo here], and I shall not sleep till morning!
Now I hope that you forgive me for being rather fond of the Woldike recording - all three hours and twenty minutes of it. He was a great Dane! [Also recorded - at a time when it almost unheard of - a great deal of Buxterhude]. The approach is almost as magisterial as Klemperer, except in the recitatives, which though never rushed, are beautifully timed for flow and clarity, making for an easier listen in one go right through.
I have listened to this performance twice in the last five years, right through without loss of concentration. I never managed the Klemperer LPs, except by dividing it in two as half in the afternoon, then supper and the rest in the evening! Also I am half Norwegian with Danish ancestors in the early 19th. century. Woldike is about a sixth cousin of mine a few times removed generationally via my grandmother!
I also have Leonhardt, but Woldike eclipses this [historical instrument] recording for me now, so it may be given away one day.
Keep well, and best wishes for a quick recovery from your surgery.
Best wishes from George
My personal choices:
Magnificat: Elly Ameling (soprano), Helen Watts (contralto), Werner Krenn (tenor), Tom Krause (bass), Wiener Akademichor, Stuttgart Chamber Orchestra, Karl Munchinger (Decca).
Munchinger has always been a great Bach conductor, both in his instrumental and vocal works (his Orchestral Suites on Decca are marvellous), and his recording of the Magnificat is absolutely splendid. With fabulous soloists and the Stuttgart Chamber Orchestra, who plays beautifully, it's my reference recording of the Magnificat.
Mass in B minor: Margaret Marshall (soprano), Dame Janet Baker (soprano II/contralto), Robert Tear (tenor), Samuel Ramey (bass), Academy & Chorus of St. Martin in the Fields, Sir Neville Marriner (Philips).
This has always been my favourite interpretation (closely followed by Richter and Schreier), and I go back to it all the time. It features first-class soloists (including Janet Baker) and the ASMF plays beautifully under Marriner. It's stylish, musical, intelligent and the chorus is absolutely fabulous.
Christmas Oratorio: I agree with your choice. Jochum's recording has always been a favourite of mine, with FANTASTIC soloists and a magnificent choir, it's a classic that has definitely stood the test of time.
St. John Passion & St. Matthew Passion: I've gone through a couple "favourite" versions of the Passions, first of all the Jochum recordings on Philips, then the Gardiner recordings on DG then finally my present one is Schreier on Philips. I have nothing much to say about it, because you've already described every aspect of the Schreier recordings, and I agree with everything you said.
In the early 60s I had the pleasure of hearing the B minor Mass performed by Karl Richter and the Munich Bach Choir and Orchestra at Constitution Hall in Washington DC with some of the same soloists as in the recording you featured. It was amazing. Richter conducted the entire work without music! One thing I found fascinating was that in those arias which also featured a solo instrument such as the violin , French horn, or oboe the solo instrumentalists would stand up while they played, which made it seem more like a duet. I prefer Richter in the Christmas Oratorio and Magnificat as well.
At last!! I have waited for months for this talk to appear. As a Swedish lutheran I feel an affinity whith Bach. As for the performances I think you are right when choosing Klemperer, Richter, Jochum, and Schreier as conductors. Now I am waiting for the talk about the cantatas. All 200.😉
What an interesting and stimulating talk on the ideal Bach major, non-period style, choral works. Basically, I feel we come from the same place, although the individual choices might be different by a whisker.
I'm not that familiar with the Magnificat, so I won't quibble with your choices on that one (but your enthusiasm about the work will certainly make me consult the cd-shelves and this time round listen more carefully!).
Mass in B minor: the late Danish- German critic, Hansgeorg Lenz, encountered Karl Richter, when he was in Copenhagen to record some Bach works on the organ of Jægersborg Kirke. They came to discuss the Mass in B and Richter asked mr. Lenz, what he thought of his recording of it. Lenz, knowing that Richter could be very touchy and easily offended by critic of any kind, tried to avoid answering. Richter pressed on, as he sensed, that mr. Lenz had some reservations, and asked directly: "What is it, you don't like about it?" Lenz, tentatively: "Eh, well, right from the beginnig, the large kyrie chorus..." - "What do you find wanting?" - "Ehmmm...". Richter: "Do you know of anyone, who does it better?" - "To be honest, yes, Klemperer". "Yes!" said Richter enthusiastically, "Klemperer's sostenuto, right? I miss that in my own interpretation. How does he do it? Klemperer's sostenuto in Bach! I haven't come to terms with that yet ...".
The soloists are no slouches either: Agnes Giebel, Janet Baker, Nicolai Gedda, Hermann Prey and Franz Crass.
So I will side with Karl Richter and put Klemperer's recording (EMI/Warner) at the top of my list!
Christmas oratorio: No one - as in no one! - beats Richter (DG) in this work. His is the version to choose for sheer exuberance, foreward propulsive drive, but also sensitive expressivity. As much as I love Jochum in this work - and wouldn't be without his recording, he can only be my second choice (but for the same qualities, that mr. Hurwitz highlights). Richter's stellar lineup of soloists is indisputably the best in the universe (to take my recourse to the use of hyperbole as is so often mr. Hurwitz' habit - and, please, remember, we are talking non-period style here): Gundula Janowitz radiant (and for once with a somewhat clearer diction than what marred some of her later recordings), Christa Ludwig (listen to that lulluby in the 2nd cantata!), the irreplaceable Fritz Wunderlich, and lastly the inimitable, warm sonorous bass of Franz Crass. The only drawback of this recording is due to the criminal idiodicy of DG/Universal: in every incarnation on cd of this recording, they have slavishly adhered to the layout of the LP-version, i.e. spread the second cantata to the next disc, although the whole cantata easily could have been fitted in in its entirety on the first disc together with the first cantate. GRRRRRRRR!
St. John Passion: I can most heartily concur with the reflections of mr. Hurwitz. And though my personal first choice would have been to settle for Jochum, I have to apply to the rules, and must reserve him for later - thus without any second thoughts: Britten it is!
St. Matthew Passion: I can only be in total aggreement with what mr. Hurwitz says about Klemperer's recording of this work. And fully understand why he chooses it as his prime recommendation.
I've seen Klemperer's approach to Bach foolishly being characterized as romantic (probably due to his broad tempi and not shying away from letting the music sound grand and magnificent, when it is) - but nothing could be farther from the truth! Although influenced by 'Neue Sachlichkeit' (litt.trans. 'New Objectivity') maybe it's more appropriate to see Klemperer in his Bach-style as a law unto himself. HIPsters might sneeringly dismiss him, not knowing that he in fact could be considered the great-grandfather of their own stylistic efforts. According to Peter Heyworth, Klemperer's biographer, Klemperer as early as 1921 directed a performance of the Brandenburger Concerto No. 1 in F from the harpsichord! Heyworth further commented on that performance: "His decision to give the work with soli instruments (a decision that excited much comment) suggests that, unlike most conductors of his generation, he no longer concieved the music in terms of ninetenth-century orchestral sonorities".
In February 1929 Klemperer opened a concert with a performance of the Brandenburg Concerto No.6, again directing it from the harpsicord, and with all seven parts played by soloists, who included Wolfsthal, Hindemith and Eva Heinitz on instruments borrowed from the Musichochschule. The latter played the viola da gamba, an instrument so rare at the time, that she claimed to have been the only player of it in Berlin!
Accidentially, among the obbligato instruments in Klemperer's recording of the St. Matthew Passion you will notice, that an oboe d'amore, an oboe da caccia as well as a viola da gamba figure.
For a romantic approach at its fullest (willfullest, some would say) you can turn to Willem Mengelberg. His 1939 recording with the Concertgebouw Orchestra (Naxos) is not for the faint of heart HIPster, nor for those unwilling to go on a little musico-archaeological expedition. The performance is far away from our contemporary conception of an appropriate Bach style (be it period or non-period), and might be seen as a relic of how Bach was conceived in the mid to late 19th century, the time from which Mengelberg stemmed. It's a highly subjective, grandiose, and in many instances moving interpretation - and with an Evangelist for the ages in the German tenor, Karl Erb.
If you are a newcomer to the work, though - or if Klemperer's and Mengelberg's approaches to the work, no matter how antigonistically different they are, are too hard for you to stomach, my prime recommendation would be Eugen Jochum's recording (Philips/Universal). His is a more fleet, though in no way superficial, deepfelt interpretation. Its a performance of deep pathos (in the most positive sense of the word), not, though, too heavily overloaded with the protestant, guilt-ridden Angst, mentioned by mr. Hurwitz. One senses Jochum's musicality in every bar, as well as the human geniality, that his music making always exuded. Maybe because he was a deeply believing catholic, one feels he, even in the anguished parts of the passions, never lost sight of the ressurection and the redemption of man kind, that ensued from it.
Among his soloists count Haefliger
(Evangelist), Giebel, Höffgen, van Kesteren, Berry and Crass. The Netherlands Radio Choir and the Concertgebouw Orchestra acquit themselves with aplomb, one certainly senses their devotion to the man at the helmet.
The historically curious should not devoid themselves of the intense and exciting, but at the same time sober, 1949 recording by Fritz Lehmann (Music&Arts). Among the soloists we find Elfriede Trötschel, Helmuth Krebs (a fine Evangelist) and last, but not least a very young Fischer-Dieskau in what must be his very first recording of the part of Jesus.
It's a bit of a conondrum for me: Even if I love and mainly prefer Handel played in (musical) period style, I have never really heard Bach played by that crowd in a fashion, that I particularily liked. I'm therefor eagerly looking forward to be inspired by the talk on Bach's major choral works, part 2!
PS. Best wishes for a fast dental recovery! Hopefully the dentist didn't mess you up too much - and succeeded in getting evetything, that was needed, over and done with the first time around!
Having spent a goodly portion of my life focused on Bach's choral music, I'm so happy to get further validation of my decades-old choices for the Matthew Passion and B Minor Mass. I've found many other performances enjoyable, but none as worthy of posterity as those by Klemperer and Richter. There are musical decisions made in both that are still thoroughly convincing. For example, the non-ritard cadence in Et Expecto is musicologically (and musically) correct while only being adhered to in few other performances. The grandeur and clarity of both versions have not been surpassed. Thank you!
Hi David. Thank you so much for this great video on Bach and his major choral works. Loved what you had to say and I also LOVE Bach and particularly his choral music. I have to say though....that I, personally, love the Passions and I do play them randomly (which is often) whenever I feel like it, because I just love them! 🤗 I don’t think I need psychiatric help....but you never know.... 😂😂
What you were saying about it being ok not to like the Great Works: I've never warmed to the B minor Mass. The first performance I heard in Rockefeller Chapel at U. Chicago I was bored silly. Since then I've listened to it occasionally trying to change my mind; it's grown on me a little but not a lot. I like even the more obscure cantatas (95% of them count as more obscure cantatas) and I listen to the passions around Easter, so it's not a problem with Bach. The Prey-Fischer-Dieskau rivalry was a bit like the Bing Crosby-Frank Sinatra rivalry. Prey would probably repeat Crosby's reported quip that Sinatra's [DFD's] voice was one in a lifetime but why did it have to come along in his lifetime.
Thank you very much for this topic. Get well again soon. As to the Christmas Oratorio I could not do without Karl Richter and the Bach Choir and Orchestra and his wonderful soloists (Janowitz, Ludwig, WUNDERLICH and Crass) and Kurt Thomas and his Thomanerchor and Gewandhausorchester (and four magnificent soloists- Agnes Giebel, Marga Höffgen, Josef Traxel and DFD).
Sure, they are also terrific.
Oh, so inspirational and informative, thank you!
So, David.
I just listened to Honeck's Eroica and I am blown away. The best Eroica by a very great margin, easily.
Send Szell, Karajan and Lenny home packing.
Thx so much!
Wow, thank you!
Robert Shaw's first performance of the B minor Mass was my first record of a Bach major choral work on lp (from 1960). One of the earlier versions with scaled down forces, it still holds up well on cd--and has the added bonus of Oscar Shumsky doing the solo violin parts.
I'll be looking forward to your survey of the ideal period-instrument recordings; frankly, they are generally my favorites, with only one exception, given below. That said, there are a number of enthralling modern instrument versions, the best of which, IMHO, are the following:
Christmas Oratorio - Karl Münchinger (Decca). Great soloists, and the all-male choir sounds terrific with the distinctive timbre of boy sopranos.
St. Matthew Passion - Karl Richter (Archiv) -- the earlier (1958?) performance with Haefliger and Fischer-Dieskau. This is actually my favorite Matthew of all, including HIP performances. Whenever I turn it on, I know it will be for the long haul; I just can't turn it off.
St. John Passion - Fritz Werner (Erato) -- definitely old school, but worth anything for Frederike
Sailer singing Ich folge dir gleichfalls mit freudigen Schritten.
Magnificat- Marriner (EMI) -- good soloists, both vocal and orchestral.
Mass in B Minor - Helmut Rilling (Hänssler) -- the 1999 version with Sibylla Rubens et al., which makes it, what, the 3rd from Rilling? the fourth? He did at least seven; and, as with other large families, sometimes the ones in the middle can get mixed up.
I agree with most of your choices, with the notable exception of Mariner's Magnificat, which I find quite stiff, rushed and insensitive.
that's really helpful re the Magnificat as a way in (as I only know the B minor Mass) - thanks! I shall go and listen to one now.
Richter’s Dona Nobis Pacem reveals heaven to mortals. Thanks for bringing it to your audience.
Klemperer: the best St Matthew Passion, the best German Requiem, the best Fidelio, the best Das Lied von der Erde... Brahms First Symphony... Violin concerto with Oistrack... etc., etc.
I want to thank you for approving people not liking and not getting emotionslly attached to seminal works. For me it's brahms symphonies, in particular the first. Only recently did I find a performance that made me like his 4th and 2 - kleiber. And I always felt bad for not becoming emotionally attached to the symphonies, and thank you for saying that it's ok to feel that way.
Of course! How else could it be? Enjoy what you like and don't worry about the rest.
For the Christmas Oratorio, I have to mention Richter as an alternative. Fritz Wunderlich in the tenor part and Maurice Andre plays the finale better than anyone. So if you don't go with Richter in the B Minor Mass.......
Absolutely!
I like those ideal cykles (+the others). I am not trying to copy them complete, because if I have Klemperer and Wand in LvB 4, I am not sufflering. But the cykles variations are great, and give ideas to supply the collection, Markevich LvB 5, McGegan in Haydn and many others. Such things gives me great pleasure to catch.
It is also good to know, that Ozawas Prokofiev symphonies is to avoid. I love his RCA and DG box, and his R&J is splendid. So avoid comments are mostly welcome.
From todays Bach, I think Richter should be my old newcomer, and I hope for a good suggestion in a new oldcomer in Magnificat, when we get there. In my amateur choir days, we write birthday songs on the Sicut canon, it is not easy to sing and laugh at the same time. But fun ;-)
Great videos, and tons of wonderfull informations. Thanks a lot, also for the great clever comments.
You made my day! Just the recordings I would have pointed out. I thought, that in my comment I will add the St. John‘s Passion conducted by Britten - but not even that I can do. In fact, Britten’s is my favorite St. John, dramatic - and I think, it‘s perfect that Britten lets sing in English: The poetic level of the original is not high, and so it has the freshness of people coming together and singing the work. I admire this recording really.
The Klemperer St. Matthew was in my earliest classical years my first Bsch and my first Klemperer - and no St Matthew could match it until today. The first and the last choral statement are incredible. I gain nothing from conductors who do it „the right way“, but leave me cold. Klemperer with his stony expressionist sound monument is the best one can get. That has nothing to do with Christianity, just with human suffering.
Richter and Schreier are always good. Just the Barenboim is new to me, l‘ll give him a chance.
Thanks, once more.
PS.: I must add just one comment in case of the "Magnificat": Just heard for the 1st time the Gielen-recording and it's on the best way to become my favourite: It has a quality of joy and completely profane dance-like movement, which is very appealing to me.
My modern-instrument favourite Matthew Passion is Karl Münchinger's, possibly because it was the one I imprinted on, but it's a fine account nonetheless. I'm also very fond of Klemperer's, of course, and his cast of soloists never ceases to amaze me; even the smallest "bit-parts" are taken by such stalwarts as Helen Watts, Otakar Kraus, John Carol-Case and Geraint Evans.
For me Münchinger is a bit less than the sum of its parts despite Wunderlich, Ameling, Prey, it seems dramatically not that involved overall. But it must have been spectacular in the mid-1960s because it uses stereo to full effect for the double-choir+orchestra effect and actually more consistently than many later HIP recordings.
My favorite non-HIP SMP for drama is Scherchen's from the 50s but it is so-so mono and the choir is not great.
@@bartolo498 The excellent Decca sound is one of the great features of the Münchinger recording, I agree. I seem to recall that it was produced by John Culshaw, but I may be wrong.
I was wrong - the producer was Ray Minshull, who eventually took over in 1967 when Culshaw left.
Thanks David, and with best regards and wishing you well soon.
It was really a passionate Darstellung!
I adore Klemperer's Mass in B minor and "HIS" Passion of course, but I am also a keen admirer of Corboz's Matthäus-Passion with orchestre de chambre de Lausanne, and the 'prima inter pares' Margaret Marshal, on Erato (1983). At first glance the rendering may seem to stand midway between modern and the so-called "authentic" performances. But the full sonority of the chamber orchestra especially in tuttis as always reveals it to be a truly modern and even a romantic reading, more in line with Jochum and Klemperer, than with Schreier, Harnoncourt, Leonhardt and Herreweghe. The forces of Lausanne and the soloists have responded warmly and vividly to the conductor who is obviously in total control of the minutest details, without immersion in frivolity or being idle. The recording is neat and faultless.
I consider that a recording conducted by Helmuth Rilling and his Stuttgart team should be included in any selection of modern instruments versions of Bach´s great choral works. Many of them fulfill your criterion: great soloists, good playing and a conductor with deep understanding of the works and a close relationship with the composer´s legacy. For instance, Rilling´s last version of the Magnificat on Hänssler has all of that combined with good sound quality. Maybe, some may consider Rilling´s approach sometimes boring or square, but I think that is not the case with most of his Bach recordings on Hänssler.
I think Rilling is wonderful, but I'm saving him...you'll see eventually.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Good to know! I can hardly wait!
Hi Dave, was wondering about Rilling of course. Re Christmas Oratorio he has as you know the very outstanding one. 1985 with Auger, Schreier (you mentioned him), Hamari and Schöne) and the one I saw becoming real Christmas Oratorio from 1995 with Rilling and Oelze, Danz, Schade, Goerne, Quasthoff.
Wait for more. Greetings to NYC
Your best ever, and not just because of the choices you made. What you say about these enormous Bach works, especially vis-a-vis the pre-HIP performances, is exactly right. So are your thoughts about the two Passions. Your usual combination of sophistication and smarts combines with a wonderful sense of humanity as you present these works. Thanks. I’m loving all your videos.
Wow, thanks!
I agree with you about the St. Matthew Passion. Klemperer would also be my choice for the B Minor Mass. I know about the technical issues one might have with it. But I think, despite that, it's an incredible performance. And Janet Baker's Agnus Dei is unforgettable. My first choice for the Christmas Oratorio is Richter. I like the Jochum almost as much. I have an issue with some of the text of St. John's Passion, so I haven't listened to it in ages. But I own and have liked the old Karl Forster EMI recording which has an excellent cast of singers.
jeremy berman well, it is St. John. For Jesus Christ Superstar, Lloyd Webber (Julian’s brother) and Rice used a synoptic text but the objectionable parts of St. John were used, apparently without awareness of the lethal uses to which it has been put.
Just watched this (I only discovered your videos a few months ago). It's worth a mention about the Britten St John Passion that as well as being a great performance it's also sung in English which is a bonus.
Didn't I say that? If not thanks because I meant to.
Dave, do you know the 1956 Berlin Philharmonic Bach Christmas Oratorio record, under Lehmann and Arndt? I got a copy because Charlie Schlueter, the former principal trumpet of the Boston Symphony under Ozawa, loved this record growing up for Fritz Wesenigk’s trumpet playing, which he said sounds like a big bell being rung. I quite like the record overall.
No, I don't know it. Thanks for mentioning it.
So impressed that you pronounce Bach properly. None of this "back" nonsense.
If you can pronounce chutzpah correctly then Bach’s no problem lol
Münchinger did an incisive Magnificat with excellent soloists. I think you are wise to divide them by modern vs. period performances.
I was very impressed with Woldike's St. Matthew. It is on the "Bigger Bach Set". 3 bucks at Amazon.
Call me antediluvian, but the recording of the Matthew Passion I treasure for its total involvement and dedication is Mengelberg's--one of the best ways I know to pass two and a half hours. Liturgy goes down better with schmaltz, and even mushy Karajan's Bach sings to the soul, able to sustain rapture over the hours (with his great soloists, he is in no position to fail).
Herreweghe, Koopman, and Suzuki are my favorites right now, but I still enjoy Solti's Matthew Passion. I wonder what it would have sounded like had he done it as a firebrand in 1959 instead of as an eminence in 30 years later. And of the firebrands, it is Scherchen whose Bach is perhaps most notable from that era. Even more than a Klemperer (or to name another favorite Bach conductor, Fritz Lehmann), it was Scherchen who made Bach's counterpoint electric and vital. His soloists are a who's who of Bach performance, though the choruses aren't at the Schreier or Klemperer level. Scherchen's Bach on Westminster is still gripping.
Since you like composers conducting Bach, what about Georges Enescu's Bach B Minor Mass (Pears, Danco, Ferrier!) on BBC Legends and later Ariadne? His conducting is as musically penetrating and communicative as his landmark solo partitas. Another composer compelling in Bach was Bruno Maderna. Like everything else these days, his Bach can be sampled on YT.
You are antediluvian! But I knew someone had to mention Mengelberg, if only for the lovely wind solos in the arias.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Agreed, though Mengelberg has much more too...inexorable flow, the seductive portamenti, the utter darkness of it all. Spellbinding. For wind solos..hmmm. For "Aus liebe..." in the Matthew Passion, maybe the Kuijken recording. However...also the Karajan on DG: the flute player outshines Janowitz; give him a solo career! ;-)
Then the big oboe aria, "Ich will bei meinem Jesu wachen..."...Yes, I bought the whole Bernstein Matthew Passion for Harold Gomberg, who also plays so well for Bruno Walter's Part 1, but my favorite oboe in this Matthew Passion aria is Robert Bloom, the Bach Aria Group, live, with tenor Jan Peerce (on CD from Boston Records). There are so many great recordings of oboists in this aria....
thank you, this list is extremely helpful to me as a newbie!!
I'm so glad!
You are so right, all those passions and oratorios are no easy listening at all. I could imagine that it requires the christian faith and a certain degree of scripture knowledge. They sound to me like written and composed exclusively for them.
Dave, I got the Richter Mass based on your suggestion. Wow, the trumpets really resound! Only one trumpeter is listed in the booklet. But isn't it 3 players? The horn(s) seem less prominent. BTW, what do you think of the remastering? I felt it could be re-remastered. Sounds a touch murky at times, not as vivid as the performance warrants.
PS: I recently sampled Bruggen's Mass in B and that one is also excellent and talk about a VIVID recording! Would love to own it outright on CD, but alas the CDs are impossible to find. I hope the CD revival is true and they'll start re-issuing (and re-remastering) all the classics! :D
Dear David, what's your take on Munchinger's Bach choral recordings? As for modern instruments, I've Rilling's first Magnificat (Sony/CBS) and his B Minor Mass on Hanssler, with which I'm very pleased. Thank you.
What's not to like?
Wishes for a speedy recovery, Dave..
Thanks!
Fuck! Dave you cost me a fortune!! Thank you for everything!! Greetings from Greece!
I was told that St Matthew's Gospel presents Christ as victim, whereas St John presents him more as victor. I think that's reflected in the tone of the two Passions
There are two choirs performing on the Klemperer St. Matthew's Passion, the Philharmonia Choir and the Boys Of Hampstead Parish Church Choir. But the liners give no clue as to which is "Chor I" and which is "Chor II." Is it safe to assume the Boys are "Chor II" as they are deployed less often? I don't have the ear to pick up the difference.
No. The boys sing the choral in the opening chorus among other places. The two main choirs consist of the Philharmonia choir divided in two, and they perform throughout.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Thanks, David.
Great talk, David. You are getting too popular, there are now endless ads popping up during the talks.
No, RUclips does it by themselves. I always mark the videos to have no ads interrupting, and I can get rid of them. Thanks for letting me know,
who was it who described the harpsichord as a 'piano with a wheeze'? Your videos are great! What do you play?
Um, piano, clarinet, a pathetic attempt at viola, and percussion--all rather badly, just for my own fun and curiosity.
I'm not sure about the wheezing piano quote, but I love Sir Thomas Beecham's description of the harpsichord sounding like "two skeletons copulating on a tin roof" :)
@@ftumschk ... during a hailstorm
@@michaelhughes1504 Of course!
Thanks for splitting your presentation between modern and period instruments. I hate the sound of period instruments and the reforms inspired by the HIP movement are just as misguided as serialism, in my opinion. While I will probably listen to part two because I like your presentations (even if I don't like the music you discuss), I'm glad I can come back to this video when I look for something to buy.
"Mache dich, mein Herze, rein" is among the most beautiful and moving things Bach wrote. Congratulations go to Otto Klemperer for absolutely ruining it with an absurdly slow tempo. Quite an achievement, but no thanks. Richter 1979, for me, though I think mid-20th century performances tend to sound rather anachronistic and ponderous next to period informed performances.
I wonder if there's an age difference in the comments here. I can see how period performances can make Klemperer sound slow, but all of this business about "unlistenable" or "ruining" it is just nonsense. Obviously many people listen to it, and enjoy it, so it's not problem for them.
@@DavesClassicalGuide But his tempo is uniquely slow. Gonnenwein, Richter, Karajan et al, are all markedly quicker. It's not just a case of period versus 'big band' performances; Klemperer is out on his own here. Richter 1979 is a beautiful performance (I'd count Richter as period informed, to a degree). I didn't say it's "unlistenable", but I do believe he ruins arias such as "Mache dich..."
@@bwpm1467 Fair enough! I go by how well the singers can sing it--in this case, very!
Best lines: 1) "You know the story: Jesus gets crucified. End of story." Ha ha. 2) ..."in the history of Germanity".. I agree with everything you say, but I do love the Passions, not for their grimness, but for the sense of humanity, comfort and forgiveness. Bach was quite a theologian, which can be heard in his music - how he characterizes different people in the story and also the arias, is quite enlightening... Your approach to all these is spot on, but, for me the Klemperer is unlistenable... Best singers ever, but the tempi... I just can't...
What tempi?
@@DavesClassicalGuide as Lincoln said about George McClellan, “he’s got the slows...”
@@JackBurttrumpetstuff Nah. Just majestic. Bach wrote lots of notes; it's nice to have the time to hear them. Besides, no need to listen all at once, especially at home. You can take your punishment in small doses. Eventually, immunity sets in.
@@DavesClassicalGuide ha!
Gosh. I’m a big fan of Karl Richter’s recordings, but although I’m also a fan of a lot of Kelmpere’s work, I just can’t stand his Matthew Passion, sorry! It’s unbearably slow, and we just can’t un-hear all the other recordings that do not move at that dirge-like pace. I really couldn’t recommend it to anyone who hasn’t heard the work before.
Not as bad as going to the dentist though, so I hope your mouth is feeling a bit better....
Absolutely correct. I too cannot abide his St Matthew Passion.
Thank you yes. Sure we can un-hear the others. What does tempo matter? You just have to get used to it and it works beautifully, all in proportion.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Well, I know we are not going to agree on this, and thats OK. You've obviously listened to the Klemperer recording over many years, sometimes (as you say, as you don't especially like the work). Maybe its because unlike you I am a sort of northern "protestant type", from Scotland, I feel the concept at some subliminal level differently from yourself (or Klemperer!)
Tempo might matter because there's quite a lot of dancing going on in the Matthew Passion - including in the opening and closing choruses (I believe, a rather complicated gigue and a sarabande respectively). I don't think you'd really know at Klemperer's speeds.
I was thinking about something you said about showing a work at its best advantage, and (for me) the Klemperer here is a great example of a great conductor, soloists, great recording conditions, orchestra and choir, but this doesn't result in a positive realisation of the work. (I am using the Karajan 1970s box s a footrest as I type, and I'm also a bit scared of listening to the very long St Matthew in there, which I'll concede is likely worse!)
I'm looking forward to your discussion of the HIP versions - but as I think others have said, Chailly in Leipzig shows how a recent recording can do it very well on modern instruments. Do you like that?
And thanks for making me think about this. Part of the problem, David, without disparaging any particular faith tradition, is a certain perversity in Christianity (I do go to church when I can).
Surely the passion story, and Bach’s construction of it, has many moments of reflection and inevitably dark turns. But for his audience and I guess for many Christians today, the trial and crucifixion of Jesus is (perversely maybe) an occasion for joy. Easter is the most important festival in the calendar here and it’s fundamentally happy because what is seen as a commemoration of a world-historical event. So the opening double chorus of this passion should sound a little moody, sure, but it should definitely sound happy and joyful too. And the dance is part of conveying this.
If you do get around to some of the cantatas too, well, all those arias about blood and wounds etc, yes, not my cup of tea either, but these are, within that tradition, joyful reflections too.
Weird right? And can well understand why you’d want to keep your difference from Lutheran things in general
@@murraylow4523 I do like Chailly, but then I like both approaches. As I said, I think this may be a generational thing. I want to leave you with this review on ClassicsToday.com by my partner, David Vernier, who is as hard core a period instrument guy as they come. I think he described Klemperer more eloquently that I can, but I agree with him completely. Here is what he had to say about it:
"That opening chorus!-a nearly 12-minute marvel of Klempererian engineering-of musical forces and Bach’s complex yet perfect design-whose conception and extraordinary execution uniquely captures the profundity and power of Bach’s music. That’s what hooked me, at about age 13, my first encounter with the St. Matthew Passion, because someone in charge of compiling music selections for Time-Life’s record club elected to include that and a few other excerpts from Klemperer’s complete St. Matthew recording on a Baroque music LP set.
There was no evidence of debility in your presentation.
Thank you. I could feel it, but I'm glad it didn't show.