GEN 2 LT1-THE OTHER GUYS SMALL BLOCK-HOW MUCH ARE PORTED HEADS & TPIS ZZ409 CAM WORTH ON THE LT1?
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- Опубликовано: 10 июн 2024
- HOW MUCH POWER DID THE GEN 2 LT1 REALLY MAKE? HOW MUCH POWER ARE PORTED HEADS WORTH ON AN LT1? HOW MCH POWER IS A CAM WORTH ON AN LT1? IS THE LT1 BETTER THAN THE LS? WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU REPLACE THE STOCK LT1 HEADS AND CAM WITH PORTED HEADS AND AN AFTER MARKET CAM? CHECK OUT THIS VIDEO THAT FEATURED PERFORMANCE MODS ON THE GEN 2 LT1. IN THIS ONGOING SERIES, THE LT1 RECEIVED HAND-PORTED LT1 HEADS (STOCK VALVE SIZES) AND A TPIS ZZ409 CAM. CHECK OUT THE POWER GAINS OFFERED BY REPLACING THE STOCK COMPONENTS WITH THE PORTED HEADS AND TPIS CAM. THE QUESTION IS-WAS IT ENOUGH?
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Lloyd Elliot, the owner of Elliot Port Works is the LT1 cylinder head porter of choice for all of us LT1 guys. TPIS is good too but Lloyd has been the go-to for quite some time. His LE2 package with a cam spec's by him is VERY popular.
all us LT1 guys?
@@richardholdener1727 I know that Jim is a pioneer with the TPI and Gen 2 LT1 motors but his reputation has fallen off, in terms of customer support, in the aftermarket Gen 2 community. Llyod Elliot is the man for factory ported heads.
@@mrmister7526 I'll second this. I've had nothing but problems working with Jim. Despite the fact that I've only spent 1/10th the money with Lloyd, he's always extremely responsive and helpful. Jim seems like a good dude, but his timliness and attention to detail are awful.
@justenoughtobedangerous I also had a terrible customer experience with Jim. The website makes it look like TPIS is a nice facility with staff on hand. The customer service feels like 1 guy working out of his 2 car garage. Took months to get a part that should've been weeks at most. With zero replies to emails. Never again.
@richardholdener1727 yeah, the ones in the know that is.
Thank you for the LT1 content!
RH - I had a GM Hot Cam on my high compression 383 LT1 with big injectors, Beehive springs, a ported TB and Intake - Snow Performance Boost Cooler and a STS kit running 13 lbs of boost. ARP studs on the top and bottom - and a tune. 550 HP at the rear tyres - good times! : )
If you’re sticking with stock castings why not go with lloyd Elliott? He’s been the go to for lt1 guys for many years now. Check the lt1 forums. Nobody ever talks about tpis heads or even cam for that matter. LE2 (LE stands for lloyd Elliott) heads and one of his custom grinds is a proven 490+ hp combo. That’s what just about all us lt1 guys are running so why go with anything else for this test? You’re just going to annoy the lt1 crowd by making the engine look bad because you’re using sub par parts. Btw, the tpis zz409 cam is TINY compared to what most lt1 guys are running. It’s a 226/226. Pretty much all lt1 guys are running 230+/238+. My LE2 cam is 231/238 and I wish I went bigger. 355 ci btw.
Lloyd elliott heads and one of his cams. His customer service is top notch and pricing is crazy. I dont understand how hes making money in this economy. I had him do my 113s with the typical 2/1.55 valves. Looking forward to my stealth ram 350 for my c4. Custom plenum to clear the hood. Should be a good little motor.
Gotta talk to Lloyd Elliot for head work to really wake these suckers up. Chad Golen and Karl Ellwein are the big names in LT1 engine building. Would love to see you compare LE2 or 3 ported heads to AI or AFR heads on these
Chad Golem the "crooked contractor" with the math teacher wife?
@@20alphabet man I’m operating on an 8 year old iPhone at the moment. Give me some slack. Chad Golen*
I've always thought an LT1 based 383, with that 226⁰ / .520 lift cam would be an awesome combo.
It’s not proper lt1 testing unless it involves Lloyd Elliott ported heads, intake, and custom grind cam imo. Le2 setup would’ve made another 75hp.
Mr Holdener, around 4 years ago you did some LT1 testing. The engine made significantly more hp and tq, and particularly the shape of the curves made more sense compared to my dynojet lt1 runs. I can't help but feel something is going weird from even the baseline of this new series of tests.
I love that you're testing on my favorite engine.
I agree that the numbers both on the intake comparison and here seem unusual, but keep doing more videos with it and we'll get to the bottom of that I'm sure.
Do we know it's mileage, compression, etc? I would have like to see that cam with stock heads, or a fuel injected version of the carb style intake, to narrow down what might be giving you the unexpected results.
@10:36 that cam is very mild for the LT1 Richard! That’s why I preached every chance I got to tell you do not go under 230 degrees intake duration. A Comp XFI 230/236 110-112 LSA .580 lift cam would have been warm and cozy inside that LT1. I ran that cam with AFR 180cc heads and made 390rwhp to the wheels thru an automatic. That’s about 410rwhp in a 6spd..
WOW... rwhp to the wheels?
😆lol
B@@20alphabethe ment to say to the tire!
@@20alphabetor maybe to the roller on the dyno... ldk..
The spline drive pin for the opti indicates a 92 or 93 LT1. The later engines had a much larger hole for cam pin drive
94 were spline drive also, and first year MAF.
Good stuff TY! I am a C5 guy right now but I have a lot of lv for the LT1 C4s as well. I was hoping to see some LE stuff on your dyno.
Great video. I have a LT1 and really love your videos! Keep em coming!
I would think the guys at TPIS would certainly address this and give answers especially since they are notorious for months long shipping delays currently per Facebook lt1 groups. I thought they were out of business
Shout out to Katech! Those are my guys!
Clinton Township represent! 😂
I wouldn't bash this at all. That power curve is very useful. Percentage wise, the gains are lovely. Sure, we could toss a long runner intake manifold on it, but even so, it runs rather nicely. Nice work with the hole saw, I've never seen that done before!
Much better!!!! But we want more! More HP than TQ!
That thing is way down on power.
The following numbers are on my LT1 on engine dyno, but with all accessories and full custom exhaust (free flowing mufflers) - But fine tuned PCM by me:
1. Stock LT1 but with cam 218/218 112LSA, stock heads - 338hp @ 5440rpm and a lot of valve float .
2. My own crappy home ported heads, upgraded dual springs and Lunati 219/227 112LSA - 418hp @ 6051rpm.
A year after that, the engine ate piston 7 and 8 ringlands in a run turning the timing way up. Excuse to upgrade to a Golen 383 fully forged bottom end :-)
3. XFI 280 cam (230/236 113LSA), 58mm TB - 446hp @ 6206rpm.
4. XFI 280 cam (230/236 113LSA), 58mm TB, but now with LE2 heads - 506hp @ 6631rpm (still going up but release throttle, didn't feel like spinning it higher)
5. TrickFlow 230/234 110LSA (almost same as XFI cam, but tighter LSA. Wanted to narrow the powerband a little and use more power) - 525hp @ 6102rpm. Lost about avg 10hp below 4500rpm and a little more torque.
6. Swapped out the 58mm TB to the stock 48mm with airfoil, because I didn't like the aggressive on/off feeling with it. HP went down to 518hp @ 6100rpm. and only lost 5ft/lb of torqe. I actually thought I would loose way more, but the stock TB is actually pretty good with that airfoil when you approach 500hp.
Great info thanks for all the detail I appreciate that!
Are those crank or wheel hp?
It says in the very beginning. Engine dyno, so that would be crank hp 😉
I pull out the engine every year and go through everything. Gonna do it again next winter to lower compression. Going boost.
@@NinjaBoxe doh, thanks. glossed right over that. Think I was stunned by the numbers thinking they were wheel. lol
Been nice to see a lt4 package on it
Just as a comparison my 94 lt1 with advanced induction 200 cc ported heads and 228/234 cam put 406 hp to the tire with headers and full exhaust. This is an expected outcome for those mods. This lt1 is sick.
Advanced induction
Gen2 lt1 200cc heads ( from porter castings?)
$2500-4500 for those that can't live without their lt1.
Crimini Almighty.
TrickPort's are looking real sexy.
The Beehive valves. What's the red line and peak curves going that route?
I'm actually thinking flat tappet hyd, but I haven't looked into cam grinding yet.
550 lifts and rollers isn't a must in my old school world 😂😂 I don't know.
My 95 stock lt1 runs beautifully at 130k miles. There is time to get a clear objective plan
I built this engine 10+ years ago. They are stock castings CNC ported and flow nearly 300 cfm on intake. The lift on the cam is .617 intake and exhaust, hyd roller. Peaks at about 6400 rpm and only drops a couple hp between 6400-7000
Im loving this content! I KNOW Richard will figure out the best combination.
Hi torque, even with a good larger camshaft is often an indication of really great airspeed on head porting. I’d say it’s factor of both port volume and the way the port work was done. Also you can’t make a high rpm climbing ignition curve cause you used a distributor so it may not be viable in this scenario. Sone engines just want more timing up top.
WE ADD TIMING TIL IT STOPS MAKING POWER
Okay guys here it is
95 Camaro Z28 stock lt1 4l65e. After great thought and distain of the cookie cutter ls3 transplant, I can do an ls3 with 6spd 6060 43k miles for $10k. In this decision, it's bigger bang for the buck. The SENTAMENTAL emotional attachment aside, I'm stepping into a century 21 engine for less money than going native.
What say you
cant wait for the next one
I’m kinda glad to see this even though it’s an unusual combination in the LT1 world as most people have said. I have Lloyd Elliot’s LE1 heads which are very similar in flow to the TPIS heads. With new valves and porting (I had the springs, retainers, keepers and set them up myself) I still came in well under $1000. My cam is a Howards cam very similar in spec to the ZZ409 cam, single pattern, very close duration, very close lift, 2* narrower LSA. I built it to build mid range torque and power, not top end drag racing power. So it lets me see a result that I might expect to make. What’s the compression on this machine?
stock comp
Wrong cam. Look at a llyod elliot 227/235 .565/.579 with 110 degrees. That cam has been shown to make good power to the wheel. It should easily make over 400 flywheel, especially in the configuration your motors are dynoed with.
@Richard
Now bolt on the split plenum and sexy edelbrock 750 and see what it will really do
Eta: yeah, I really like the top of that carb.
Oh yeah, are dimpled ventris a reality yet?
Richard, I know you are playing around with the L99 crank and rods in the LT1 block. In 2020 I built a 75 Cosworth Vega with this combo. 11.25 CR, stock alum heads, 350 domed hypereutectic pistons and a Lunati camshaft. Excellent combo for a light car. Not my first 302. Had one in 1975 in a 74 Vega GT. 10.97 on stock width tires. Scary fast. Would be happy to share info and specs with you on the 'LT302'
stock LT1 heads?
@@richardholdener1727 Yes, stock 95 LT1 heads. These heads flow much better that the original 1960's 302 heads and thus do not require as much of a camshaft to make excellent street power. My 74 Vega in 75 ran the stock 'DZ' heads with the GM '140' service cam. Fastest 1/4 mile times required shifting the Muncie at 8500 rpm. Car was slower when shifting at 9k. So don't overcam this engine unless you plan to really spin it and give up low rpm torque! Also you need the higher compression with the shorter stroke to retain decent low rpm torque for the street.
P.S. I ran the stock LT1 intake, fuel injection and optispark. Also to run hyd rollers you need to keep the rpms down and use a very mild lift camshaft to keep from launching the lifters off off the lobes. Mild lift with 1.6 rockers fits the bill. Stock heads stop flowing at about .460 lift anyway. Hope that helps
please do a dyno test comparison between a floater gear drive and double roller chain in a sb chevy
Can you change the crank shaft too.. 😅I’m tryna see something cause I have this build going with a eagle cranks and engine tech rebuild kit and a 306 comp cam
Much THANKS AN RESPECT for the LT1 stuff an other knowledge ! I am grateful ! Awsome im
redoin my 93 Firebird Formula F1 now ..its bone stock , non t top just hit 190km an tranny coped out ...now im gonna do the work i wanted to do on it !! What tranny should i go with , now we have those adaptor kits lol ..im looking for around 500 with nos , what tranny would b best. Have the 700r4 rebuilt ..will it handle that ? Not many old timers to talk to about these engines
I ported a set of these lt1 head for a friend of mine. He didn't want to do aftermarket. So, i did them up like a real nice set of after al heads. They were very serious! His car was serious as well. I put a very mean camshaft in it. Radical as i could live with as far as .050 to .200. It would really get down NA
///////////////////////////// GO WITH THE FLOW>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wicked sound 2
Thank you Richard with this awesome tryout! Did you happen to flow test stock heads before and after the porting? I believe the stock LT1 max out somewhere around 210cfm. Will you possibly try the carb-dualplane combo with the upgraded cam? Another thing: As you've th experience of changing plentyful count of heads, did you find these stock LT1 heads to be a bit challenging to remove and put on again? I've a pair here as well and i feel the quiding pins don't quite line up with the holes in the head. My question is, is it safe to kind of force it and just assemble it anyways?
just tap them down-they will go
I would like to see what the max horsepower na is for the stock head
I ve seen Hotcam combination make more than that Id bet the exhaust ports were not done on short turn and in ports to flow much better than stock. If the exhaust ports are over efficient to cause soggy bottom end or on circle track cars mushy out of the turns sometimes a single pattern cam is suggested to provide better torque and throttle response. Crane cams always added more exhaust duration to chevy grinds even designed LS cams 210 227 Z6 cams to pull low and mid range with exhaust duration for top end. If porting LT1 heads flow 212cfm intake and 162cfm exhaust GOTO ported say 249cfm intake 180cfm exhaust 27cfm intake 2.2cfm per HP+ 13HP 18cfm exhaust
9HP good LT1 heads make so the heads unless exceptional are worth say 20HP exhaust valves 1.5" stock but not alot of room to go 1.55 or 1.6 valve and pocket venturi to match so the exhaust port has to be done right or split pattern cam. Just as a test try some 1.6 rocker arms on the exhaust and see if it goes to say 410HP. Then change heads and or cam.
Thats actually really good for just a cam that just made 450 460 lift.
Stock steel rockers wont let cam show off its lift
At 1.324 instead 1.5 is spec but gm jews you on that its cause the old cams were cast
so 450 460 is like 390 400 cam 1.5 crane gold or 1.62 scorpians will get advertised lift
with stock cam 1.5 cranes get 510 520 almost hot cam size
id call the heads stock looked in video that the ruffed up intake runners and didnt port match and it was going up walls like they copied a vortec with tiny runners
probably slower than stock
thats why you expected more
450- 480 horse with Cam and rockers easy
Richard Holdener I bought a turnkey SF902 dyno package with a sound room, air handling etc last November for my personal shop because i am a crazy person. I have had it running since February this year just running personal stuff on it. I obviously have limited info on how to fully utilize it. Can i slip you a few bucks for your time and do a call or teams meet8ng or whatever to walk me through how to fully use this thing? It is functional and ive put 50 hours or more time on it but i think it can do more than what ive figured out.
I amazing what grubworm was does with a gen 2 small block
I would love to see the suspension set up on Grub Worm! It looks like a 200+ mph stink bug going down the track!!
@@randallmason9687 rock solid motorsports has video builds of the suspension for grub worm
Ричард, а как правильно на моторах GM рассчитать распредвал, толкатели клапанов, чтобы при смене головок был достаточный зазор между поршнем и клапаном?
There's something going on with this engine. Base power seems quite low.
Both the stock setup and the one with the ported heads and cam seem down on power for an LT1. Idk but you may want to double check this setup.
agreed
We've been waiting a long time for our 351 Windsor Big bang motor again you do a lot of Chevy stuff. We need more stuff for the Ford guys
I never understood why GM thought that super short runner intake was the best choice for a 350 ci factory street engine. Hood clearance?
Yes literally to fit under gen 4 f body hood. Shame.
Longevity and cost cutting
Even the stock number seems a little low, not much more than a 1990 and up l98 corvette motor. I've usually seen them around 350hp. In fact, you've dynoed a stock one around that in the past.
Can you run this again with the carb intake and see if the gap you got before with about a 100ftlb difference is still similar?
Should’ve been 450 or more easy with just a spring upgrade on the heads. Yeah something is wrong definitely
Hehe, "Wrong cam" Mr. Holdener. ;)
IMO this engine probably needs the overlap of a true 108 LSA single pattern cam, so if 112 LSA is your preference, 225/241/112 is what is needed.
At 4 degrees advance, valve crossover will then be at TDC, right? :)
My 383 lt1 has tea ported 200 cc trickflow heads and 12 to 1 compression 248/258 .576/.576 114+4 . The cam in the motor on dyno is to small as seen with more tq than hp
I'm not really digging the distributor seal you have on that set up Richard. 🤣
me either
LETS GOOOOOOOOOO !!!!!
SHOP APRON RICH ... 😂😂❤❤🥇🥇🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥
rebaselining the speed density system fuel tps/rpm tables interesting venture
this was run with a Holley HP
LT1 guys: cam too mild, heads too mild!
Me: how wild do you really have to get to make more HP than a junkyard 5.3 with nothing more than LS2 cam/springs??
Theres something wrong with this motor. And you're comparing apples to oranges. I'm running a procharged lt1 and a LQ4 stroker. I love them both.
The 5.3 doesn’t respond well to aftermarket cylinder heads and you can only cam it so much. The cubic inches just aren’t there with a 5.3. Now take the LT1 and mod it properly and it’ll walk away from a 5.3 all day and twice on Sunday. You can go with an NA 5.3 if you want, but in the real world you know it doesn’t hold its own against bigger engines unless boosted.
Thanks Richard! Any idea of the original cam?
stock
FYI - My 96 stock lift was 474...
Advanced induction put out some great heads and cam combos. I owned one. Still have the heads sitting on a shelf.
But I’ll say this… The LT4 195cc Airflow Research Heads I currently have are excellent and maybe even better than the AI 200cc heads.
👍💪
I have many pairs of shorts with those exact same stains on them.
very common
Vroom vroom!!
Looks like the factory cam duration was similar to the aftermarket cam. I guess the factory heads were very restricted.
nope
Yes. Torque peaks on both cams are very similar about 4500rpm.@@richardholdener1727
Were the stamped 1.5 rockers used on the heads and cam setup?
yes-stock rockers
That was lt1 biggest problem small ports
Are you positive you didn’t send the 4.3 heads to the porter? I know you sold the good heads you had previously for the lt1 ?
4.3l are iron
🤦🏻♂️ i knew that #brainfart
@richardholder1727
Richard, I am sorry but I must roll my eyes at this one.. Nobody uses TPIS STUFF FOR LT1... and the cam used is too small... most are using 230ish duration... I'm not sure why you did not contact Lloyd Elliot from Elliot Port Works... for most of the LT1 guys, this is the "go-to" person for stock-ported LT1 heads and intake (plus his custom cams for this application).. TPIS is ok but Lloyd's combos have been proven time and time again...
I think your engine is the 260 hp Road master version and not the 300 hp corvette mill. that could explain the missing power .
The Caprice/Roadmaster had cast iron heads, not aluminum
alum heads-this was a Camaro or Vette
Hi rise duel plane and 750hp would get you over 400hp
Why even use such a tiny cam? 20 years ago i ran a gm847, comp pro mags, and longtubes and made 360 to the wheels. The is some weird thing where everyone under cams these motors. I used to laugh at the guys with ported head and an lt4 hotcam barely making 350 whp lol.
Gross, you used the stamp steel rockers on the new heads lol
Flopti-spark.
I'll betcha we've just gotten used to seeing the improvements that LS engines show.
Single pattern...eeeps 😬
Run it with 5 or 6 speed manual and it's S weet. Simular to the duntov 20/20 cam but more duration
Yea I hate to say this, but Jim sent him a horrible camshaft to run 😓..
Nothing wrong with a single pattern cam.
And a small one at that. My small cam is a 225/236 lol.
It's a low rpm motor for most. That and the camaros are cruisers. You want a race motor, build a 434 with race car parts. And go racing.
richard RICHARD advance induction have lt1 cam ai 228 /234 .614 ''/ .614 - 108 lsa used for f and b body short block 😈 record holders, 👿 good option .