I just picked up a Counselor II myself and watching your videos is helping me prepare to use mine myself. I'm in the process of restoring the counselor first. Lots of cleaning of the cables and internal electronics. It's coming along nicely and I'm looking forward to getting back into service. I unfortunately don't have a printer yet for mine. Thank you for your explanation and through troubleshooting techniques. I am learning a great deal from watching you. Keep up the good work. You are making a difference.
I was a telecom tech for 42 years of which 14 were out in the field. In the 70's the transmission equipment was quite primitive and worked in the khz range and digital was still a twinkle in some white jacket's eye. We found some weird stuff on the transmission equipment, like for instance we had two single channel systems (a copper bearer + a carrier channel) working between two towns, Port Nolloth and Alexander Bay, of which one was faulty. My senior tech was helping me via telephone from our main town Springbok to localize the fault. After about and hour of being unsuccessful he told me to change the A and B channels around (the A in channel B's place and vice versa), and lo and behold, they both started transmitting!!
This reminds me in another life I had to learn how to interpret twelve lead ECG's. My little brain struggled but a good teacher helped me win. Very interesting video.
I think maybe the rotor cap was just slightly out of alignment. When you removed it then rooted it around it adjusted on it's own. When I say alignment I mean how the rotor spins around the inside of the cap compared to the position of the leads on the cap itself. The gap was probably off just enough to give the off reading. Once it was back on and you reset it, it was in better alignment with all the gaps. I willing to bet that on the cap the opposite position to number 3 is number 4. 3 was the lowest 4 was the highest. Just my guess.
That was my thought… I had this issue with my Triumph Spitfire Mk2 and elliptical motion of the top of the a worn distributor shaft…this may be the case here shown also by the looseness on the old rotor arm causing erratic results. Gap of the rotor arm being smaller at the apex of the ellipse and or with the fluctuating from right angles of the distributor shaft. ( made worse/variable also possibly by the play in the old rotor arm…could be diagnostic flag) My distributor shaft on the spitfire was noticeably worn and fitting electronic ignition cured many of the problems caused by the worn shaft and /or bushings but obviously not this problem ( also possibly a diagnostic flag)… I didn’t have that specialised equipment but the ragged running was much improved ( no elliptical motion) on replacement of the distributor by substitution ( both with electronic ignition upgrade) As with your test turning the distributor through 90° changed the situation unfortunately I never had any specialised test equipment just logical approach, trying to understand what was going on , luck and a nearby scrap yard for substitution. Your problem may be different but hope this helps a little… getting all the settings etc on the top of the three dimensional mountain so to speak and performance gain is one of the greatest pleasures of these old cars… also the knowledge gained for example makes realise when you drive up the Pyrenees why the back of you car has turned black and how sort it… great videos thanks.
Elin, Great explanation of the ignition system and that Snap on unit is pretty cool! The TR4 sounds great. The owner should be very happy when he gets his car back! Thanks for all of the good tips!
Hi Elin, very interesting to follow you chasing this fault. After reading all the comments it does point to something not being seated quite right it certainly was worse after refitting the old rotor. Great video and thanks very much for the test drive, It felt like I was onboard as well. Well done and good luck from Spain!!
Great information Elin. So good to see some ‘science’ rather than ‘art’ in getting the engine running properly. I understand that there is no smoking gun, but I’d be tempted to try some swaps, such as a new distributor, or some new leads, and see what difference there might be. I suspect the cylinder 3 issue is probably a stack up of issues - a weak distributor top, or leads, bad mixture compromise on the middle cylinders, perhaps needles not absolutely optimized right across the rev range. All are very slight and would probably take weeks to fully diagnose. It seems to be running well now, so leave well alone! Great job. I hope the owner is very happy.
Could it be that the cap was not seating properly the first time? On my delco I had to trim the vacuum unit bracket because it was high, preventing the cap from sitting perfectly flat. I also wouldn't be at all surprised if those runners were moving different quantities of mixture. I built a homely but quite functional flow bench out of plywood and parts from Home Depot, and ported my Gt6 manifold. Significant differences between them, (even accounting for the oddball #2 and #5 runners). This was great instruction, Elin. Great to see you work the problem 👍
Elin, another educational video; thanks! Chasing an electrical 'gremlin' on cylinder 3 is interesting; it just seemed to disappear after repositioning the cap. I'm wondering if testing wire resistance from the internal CAP contact to the spark plug end would have revealed an obvious resistance reading variation on #3? Another possible diagnostic method for checking electrical problems while on the scope would be the 'shake test'; grabbing each HT lead and giving it a vigorous twist/movement to see if it affects the waveform. That would show whether or not you have a spurious bad conduction situation. I'm no pro, so I don't know! lol
Yeah, I gave it the shake test off camera and the readings didn't change. It was something internal. Maybe distributor cap not sitting properly or the rotor not sitting properly on the shaft.... Oh, and I measured the resistance of all the leads from inside the distributor cap to the spark plug end. You probably missed that.
The variance could be due to the varied smoothness of the ports. If they are ported properly, then they should give more consistent results. You should check the ports.
I would always disconnect the vacuum when using a timing light. Also you moved the HT leads which could have made a difference. The resistance in the HT leads will always be different because they are all different lengths. I still say you have a problem with the HT leads, possibly a spark plug connector
In one of the previous videos we confirmed that this vacuum port is closed at idle speed and only opens after 2000. rpm. Also I was using the timing light just to be able to bring the distributor back to the same position so as long as I used the light at the same conditions before and after, that was fine. Yes the HT leads were pretty close in resistance and I assumed the slight difference was due to the different length and within normal range. I thought about the possible issue at the spark plug connector too, but that would lead to higher resistance and higher KV. We were looking for a low resistance.
Wow what a great video. I never understood how an oscilloscope worked and how you actually have to read the patters generated for each cylinder. Probably similar to an EKG for a heart. It’s also interesting to see how minuscule changes in physical cap & rotors makes a big difference. There is a lot of precision involved. Question in your explanation on primary and secondary windings in the coil. How does the voltage from the primary side move to the secondary side? I get that there are more windings. But how does it move?
When you returned the distributor back to it's original position and the fault on number 3 disappeared, did you have the vacuum hooked line back to the distributor ?
Yes, I hooked it up the way it wad before I clocked it. I believe the problem disappeared after I removed and refitted the new rotor. I did not check the KV at that time, but I checked the waveforms and in the top right corner you can see that the kv was pretty equal already. So I don’t think that clocking the distributor and turning it back fixed the issue, removing and refitting the rotor did.
I had a similar problem on a mini. It wouldn't run right. Eventually we found out there was a bad earth with the distributor.maybe you cured it when moving it around 🤷♂️
More than likely, an ignition wire was not making good contact, and when you moved the distributor, you inadvertently, fixed it. In regards to the balance test, unfortunately you don't have the entire picture because you can't take a vacuum reading at the manifold. What I do with older vehicles that have no manifold vacuum port available, I drill and tap the manifold and install a port simply for tuning purposes. Then I cap off the port. Or I remove the fitting and install a plug to make it look more factory.
Wait a minute, Elin... in your last video it seemed a certainty that you detected a problem... or at least something different with cylinder #3... after clocking and then unclocking the distributor, this seemed to clear up and we can't explain that? I don't get it... we should have found SOMETHING with cylinder #3. I was thinking that the contact in the cap had a significantly different distance than the other 3 contacts... but what happened? Yeah... I don't get it.
After rewatching the video I realize that the KV equalized after the rotor swap even before I clocked the distributor 90°. I did not check the KV graph after I put the new rotor back and before I clocked the distributor, but I looked at the waveforms for each cylinder and at the top right of the screen I can see now that the KV for all cylinders was within 13-16kv range. So I believe somehow the new rotor was not sitting properly on the distributor shaft and removing it and reinstalling it fixed the problem. Another explanation would be a metal shaving or some conductive debris on terminal #3 inside the distributor cap, that made the gap smaller.... Can't figure it out now as it is not there anymore..
@@RustyBeauties Well... I'm glad it worked itself out. It WAS pretty cool to see that SnapOn electronic diagnostic tool... so thanks for taking the time to do that. Looks like you can wrap this one up and dedicate more time to Cheftush's project? Have you got the '57 or the '55. Sounds like you were doing the '57. THAT looks like a really cool project.
@@RustyBeauties Remember everything in the engine etc that was renewed or rebuild is still bedding in... when you put the old wobbly rotor arm in it probably wore away at the HT contacts a bit, then you moved the cap around and replaced the rotor arm and that would have changed the wear / contact pattern. And you swapped the leads on and off a few times. When the car hads been run in and had an oil change and valve clearance adjustment you can run the diags again for peace of mind !
The number of times I had a faulty electronic instrument that was built in my own workshop, I tried changing every module in the unit one a time to find nothing at all, then put it all back together again as it had been to start with and the bloody fault was gone! It is so annoying when that happens. Of course, when we are dealing with electricity we are thinking in memes that are almost meaningless. It is just stuff that goes bump in the night. However, the fault is recorded in the test and comisioning log against the serial number. Guess which serial number gets a bloody warranty claim, 2 years later? Just throw everything inside that dammned unit into the bin and put all new parts into the custommer's old case. In electronics, the parts only cost about 2% of the invoice value, so it does not really matter, but still it is very annoying.
![Felix "Unfair" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Oswujxm2Ag0/mqdefault.jpg)
I just picked up a Counselor II myself and watching your videos is helping me prepare to use mine myself. I'm in the process of restoring the counselor first. Lots of cleaning of the cables and internal electronics. It's coming along nicely and I'm looking forward to getting back into service. I unfortunately don't have a printer yet for mine. Thank you for your explanation and through troubleshooting techniques. I am learning a great deal from watching you. Keep up the good work. You are making a difference.
Elin, you explained the ignition operation better than my instructor at the Royal Air Force engineering school (60years ago!)
Regards,
Sandy🔧🏴
I was a telecom tech for 42 years of which 14 were out in the field. In the 70's the transmission equipment was quite primitive and worked in the khz range and digital was still a twinkle in some white jacket's eye. We found some weird stuff on the transmission equipment, like for instance we had two single channel systems (a copper bearer + a carrier channel) working between two towns, Port Nolloth and Alexander Bay, of which one was faulty. My senior tech was helping me via telephone from our main town Springbok to localize the fault. After about and hour of being unsuccessful he told me to change the A and B channels around (the A in channel B's place and vice versa), and lo and behold, they both started transmitting!!
This reminds me in another life I had to learn how to interpret twelve lead ECG's. My little brain struggled but a good teacher helped me win. Very interesting video.
I think maybe the rotor cap was just slightly out of alignment. When you removed it then rooted it around it adjusted on it's own. When I say alignment I mean how the rotor spins around the inside of the cap compared to the position of the leads on the cap itself. The gap was probably off just enough to give the off reading. Once it was back on and you reset it, it was in better alignment with all the gaps. I willing to bet that on the cap the opposite position to number 3 is number 4. 3 was the lowest 4 was the highest. Just my guess.
That was my thought… I had this issue with my Triumph Spitfire Mk2 and elliptical motion of the top of the a worn distributor shaft…this may be the case here shown also by the looseness on the old rotor arm causing erratic results. Gap of the rotor arm being smaller at the apex of the ellipse and or with the fluctuating from right angles of the distributor shaft. ( made worse/variable also possibly by the play in the old rotor arm…could be diagnostic flag)
My distributor shaft on the spitfire was noticeably worn and fitting electronic ignition cured many of the problems caused by the worn shaft and /or bushings but obviously not this problem ( also possibly a diagnostic flag)… I didn’t have that specialised equipment but the ragged running was much improved ( no elliptical motion) on replacement of the distributor by substitution ( both with electronic ignition upgrade)
As with your test turning the distributor through 90° changed the situation unfortunately I never had any specialised test equipment just logical approach, trying to understand what was going on , luck and a nearby scrap yard for substitution. Your problem may be different but hope this helps a little… getting all the settings etc on the top of the three dimensional mountain so to speak and performance gain is one of the greatest pleasures of these old cars… also the knowledge gained for example makes realise when you drive up the Pyrenees why the back of you car has turned black and how sort it… great videos thanks.
Very very interesting!
That was really interesting! You'll have people lined up for diagnostics. Glad cylinder 3 issue got resolved.
Elin, Great explanation of the ignition system and that Snap on unit is pretty cool! The TR4 sounds great. The owner should be very happy when he gets his car back! Thanks for all of the good tips!
Rusty and I took a nap during this session. Woke up and took the ride with you! But it was very interestinnnnng!
Hi Elin, very interesting to follow you chasing this fault. After reading all the comments it does point to something not being seated quite right it certainly was worse after refitting the old rotor.
Great video and thanks very much for the test drive, It felt like I was onboard as well.
Well done and good luck from Spain!!
... Even the steering wheel sits straight now ... Good job ...
Great information Elin. So good to see some ‘science’ rather than ‘art’ in getting the engine running properly. I understand that there is no smoking gun, but I’d be tempted to try some swaps, such as a new distributor, or some new leads, and see what difference there might be. I suspect the cylinder 3 issue is probably a stack up of issues - a weak distributor top, or leads, bad mixture compromise on the middle cylinders, perhaps needles not absolutely optimized right across the rev range. All are very slight and would probably take weeks to fully diagnose. It seems to be running well now, so leave well alone! Great job. I hope the owner is very happy.
Wow she’s a runner . Well done
Enjoyed that .... Nice to see more videos with the retro scope 👍
Excellent tutorial!!!!
Could it be that the cap was not seating properly the first time? On my delco I had to trim the vacuum unit bracket because it was high, preventing the cap from sitting perfectly flat. I also wouldn't be at all surprised if those runners were moving different quantities of mixture. I built a homely but quite functional flow bench out of plywood and parts from Home Depot, and ported my Gt6 manifold. Significant differences between them, (even accounting for the oddball #2 and #5 runners). This was great instruction, Elin. Great to see you work the problem 👍
Yes, that is possible. Also the rotor might have been sitting crocked on the shaft somehow.... I don't know.
Elin, another educational video; thanks! Chasing an electrical 'gremlin' on cylinder 3 is interesting; it just seemed to disappear after repositioning the cap. I'm wondering if testing wire resistance from the internal CAP contact to the spark plug end would have revealed an obvious resistance reading variation on #3? Another possible diagnostic method for checking electrical problems while on the scope would be the 'shake test'; grabbing each HT lead and giving it a vigorous twist/movement to see if it affects the waveform. That would show whether or not you have a spurious bad conduction situation. I'm no pro, so I don't know! lol
Yeah, I gave it the shake test off camera and the readings didn't change. It was something internal. Maybe distributor cap not sitting properly or the rotor not sitting properly on the shaft.... Oh, and I measured the resistance of all the leads from inside the distributor cap to the spark plug end. You probably missed that.
@@RustyBeauties Whoops, I missed that! That scope loan is a very nice tool.
The variance could be due to the varied smoothness of the ports. If they are ported properly, then they should give more consistent results. You should check the ports.
I would always disconnect the vacuum when using a timing light. Also you moved the HT leads which could have made a difference. The resistance in the HT leads will always be different because they are all different lengths. I still say you have a problem with the HT leads, possibly a spark plug connector
In one of the previous videos we confirmed that this vacuum port is closed at idle speed and only opens after 2000. rpm. Also I was using the timing light just to be able to bring the distributor back to the same position so as long as I used the light at the same conditions before and after, that was fine.
Yes the HT leads were pretty close in resistance and I assumed the slight difference was due to the different length and within normal range.
I thought about the possible issue at the spark plug connector too, but that would lead to higher resistance and higher KV. We were looking for a low resistance.
Wow what a great video. I never understood how an oscilloscope worked and how you actually have to read the patters generated for each cylinder. Probably similar to an EKG for a heart. It’s also interesting to see how minuscule changes in physical cap & rotors makes a big difference. There is a lot of precision involved. Question in your explanation on primary and secondary windings in the coil. How does the voltage from the primary side move to the secondary side? I get that there are more windings. But how does it move?
Graem, Denso has an online explanation and national Mag Labs has a you tube video on how ignition coils work. Both are good resources.
When you returned the distributor back to it's original position and the fault on number 3 disappeared, did you have the vacuum hooked line back to the distributor ?
Yes, I hooked it up the way it wad before I clocked it. I believe the problem disappeared after I removed and refitted the new rotor. I did not check the KV at that time, but I checked the waveforms and in the top right corner you can see that the kv was pretty equal already. So I don’t think that clocking the distributor and turning it back fixed the issue, removing and refitting the rotor did.
Check the valve lash to see if that cylinder is has different duration than the others.
What brand of Spark Plugs are in it?
I had a similar problem on a mini. It wouldn't run right. Eventually we found out there was a bad earth with the distributor.maybe you cured it when moving it around 🤷♂️
I thought if that, but it would be present at all cylinders
maybe a worn rotor post
More than likely, an ignition wire was not making good contact, and when you moved the distributor, you inadvertently, fixed it.
In regards to the balance test, unfortunately you don't have the entire picture because you can't take a vacuum reading at the manifold. What I do with older vehicles that have no manifold vacuum port available, I drill and tap the manifold and install a port simply for tuning purposes. Then I cap off the port. Or I remove the fitting and install a plug to make it look more factory.
Wait a minute, Elin... in your last video it seemed a certainty that you detected a problem... or at least something different with cylinder #3... after clocking and then unclocking the distributor, this seemed to clear up and we can't explain that? I don't get it... we should have found SOMETHING with cylinder #3. I was thinking that the contact in the cap had a significantly different distance than the other 3 contacts... but what happened? Yeah... I don't get it.
After rewatching the video I realize that the KV equalized after the rotor swap even before I clocked the distributor 90°. I did not check the KV graph after I put the new rotor back and before I clocked the distributor, but I looked at the waveforms for each cylinder and at the top right of the screen I can see now that the KV for all cylinders was within 13-16kv range. So I believe somehow the new rotor was not sitting properly on the distributor shaft and removing it and reinstalling it fixed the problem. Another explanation would be a metal shaving or some conductive debris on terminal #3 inside the distributor cap, that made the gap smaller.... Can't figure it out now as it is not there anymore..
@@RustyBeauties Well... I'm glad it worked itself out. It WAS pretty cool to see that SnapOn electronic diagnostic tool... so thanks for taking the time to do that. Looks like you can wrap this one up and dedicate more time to Cheftush's project? Have you got the '57 or the '55. Sounds like you were doing the '57. THAT looks like a really cool project.
@@RustyBeauties Remember everything in the engine etc that was renewed or rebuild is still bedding in... when you put the old wobbly rotor arm in it probably wore away at the HT contacts a bit, then you moved the cap around and replaced the rotor arm and that would have changed the wear / contact pattern. And you swapped the leads on and off a few times. When the car hads been run in and had an oil change and valve clearance adjustment you can run the diags again for peace of mind !
👍🏼👍🏼🍻
You disconnected the vacuum advance before the numbers stabilized
True, but the vacuum port is not open until after 2000rpm. So at idle speed the vacuum advance is not relevant.
The number of times I had a faulty electronic instrument that was built in my own workshop, I tried changing every module in the unit one a time to find nothing at all, then put it all back together again as it had been to start with and the bloody fault was gone! It is so annoying when that happens. Of course, when we are dealing with electricity we are thinking in memes that are almost meaningless. It is just stuff that goes bump in the night. However, the fault is recorded in the test and comisioning log against the serial number. Guess which serial number gets a bloody warranty claim, 2 years later? Just throw everything inside that dammned unit into the bin and put all new parts into the custommer's old case. In electronics, the parts only cost about 2% of the invoice value, so it does not really matter, but still it is very annoying.
That thing would have cost a fortune when it was new, I bet.
$27,000 in the '90s :)
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