Seems that the slope should be vey little so the outside base is not too sharp a point. Also this does facilitate the outside getting better contact because you don't have a problem of the inside bottoming before the outside if the base is not perfectly square.
@@dpeteual yeah, I leave a reasonable amount that still needs to be chiseled back. That leaves a flat instead of a point as you mentioned. So it’s still supported, but chiseling just gets easier.
Holy Smokes! Centuries of dovetails yet there still remained a major improvement to invent about their technique. Bravo Eric! The purpose of my next video will be solely to bring attention to yours.
I saved the link to this from the Veritas group on FB earlier and just had the chance to watch it. I was not disappointed, very clever! And well demonstrated too. I shall have to try this but I see no reason _not_ to do it, which is for me at least is the take-home from this 👍👍👍
Try it out! I also understand the motivation to do it the traditional way, but if you’re okay with the parts that nobody will ever be able to see then it’s a big time and effort saver.
I've been doing this for a few years with one difference: after the rabbet is cut I then do my pins first, then the edge of the rabbet references the inside face of the pin board for layout. This way I can lay the tail board on my bench with the pin board straight up, skipping the vise altogether. It saves quite a bit of time if you're making lots of dovetail joints at once.
Thanks so much! I appreciated the comment you left on my chair video! There’s so much to learn and seems like we can still contribute something new or improved to our craft. I don’t really plan to be a RUclipsr in general, so hopefully all of my videos will have something meaningful that makes them worth-while.
Viable technique especially for batching out multiple pieces. As pointed out by another commenter, it does thin the dovetail ends if this bothers someone. Nice presentation!
True! And admittedly, I kinda like that. The thinned out portion is the ugly side of the dovetail, so it adds a little interest to thin it out. Also, it’s much more noticeable in small boxes, but this technique works in big stuff too and the thinning isn’t very noticeable
I’ve seen Rob do this but never so exaggerated… my initial thought was “don’t you lose strength with the thinner tails?” But also lots of people rabbet join boxes for simplicity, so it’s plenty strong enough by itself. You’re just combining the aesthetics and functionality of the dovetail and whatever strength you lose is made up with the strength of the rabbet. I really like how different it is! Great job!
My thoughts exactly! And the lost end-grain isn’t where the strength is coming from. The glue really only works on the long-grain and I’m not sacrificing any long-grain with the slope.
Interesting! I'm not sure I'm 100% convinced, but I have to admit that it's very clever. I like the efficency of the sloping cut, and hiding the groove is pretty clever (though the groove is very shallow). Nice job!
The sloping cope part is dependent on the rabbet, but the rabbet can be done on its own to hide the groove. This is a pretty small box, so I don’t need more than 1/8th of an inch, but it certainly would scale up. And the bigger the box, the bigger the efficiency gain of the sloping cope method. If you’re ever just looking for a few minutes in the shop to practice something, give one or both parts a try! Thanks for watching!
A rabbet is a great aid to cutting dovetals. Eric, walk me through your work bench. Are they sliding centre portions. How's that sliding centre work with the bench dogs. Thanks
Hey thanks for watching! The bench is kinda like a lazy/cheap/modified wood whisperer design. The front and back slabs are stationary and the middle just have grooves for the sliding section. The bench dogs you’re referring to technically could work, but I don’t use them for work holding. I have the hopes of building a Moravian workbench at some point, but just like my current setup, it has to pull double duty as an outfeed table
Hey! It’s the Katz-Moses dovetail guide! It works great, but you have to scuff it up or it likes to slide around on you. I like it for the tailboard, but I freehand my pins. The plow plane is great and really fun and quick to use and setup. I’ve never used an old plow, but I’ve heard they’re hard to use and that’s not so for this one
The rabbet and plow are both achievable with a table saw or a router as well! I actually just got the skew block this week and used my table saw or just a crosscut saw and chisels to achieve the rabbet before I’m just trying to move toward more hand tool use to avoid the dust and noise!
Nice work. Innovative on the slope. I've not heard of this. But it is legit. Many similar approaches were taken in the early years of electric guitar building. If it doesn't show and it's not a structural risk - do it.
The sloping of the tail socket substantially weakens the joint "unless" the tail face is equally sloped - sorry, guys, but physics says so. Please see my comment above, and if you have questions, please ask.
@@skwalka6372 eh, structural strength isn’t much of a concern on little boxes. This joint is still way stronger than anything with a butt, miter, dowel, or spline and the long grain surfaces are all in fact for glueing
@@ericrichter7933 if your primary concern is looks, you are correct. But it is important to understand why you would not want to do that where strength is needed. Your way of doing the joint is substantially weaker tan a properly done plain miter joint, regardless of end grain issues (emphasis on properly done). As I said, do a force-moments diagram an you will see why.
Interesting technique, but it does change the aesthetics of the final piece because the end grain of the dovetails is thinner than the end grain of the pins. Not necessarily a bad thing, but a different look. Excellent video.
Definitely different, but I find it attractive and interesting! In bigger casework, it would be negligible, but in little boxes like this, it does make a big visual impact. Thanks for the reply!
Clever and very interesting. Your "slope and cope" method, as I understand it, is the same as undercutting which I have seen used in making dovetails. I wonder, though, does this significantly affect the strength of the joint because it does reduce the contact area? Nice video. Thanks for sharing.
As I understand it, the part that is undercut, no matter what the method, is not the surface that is providing any strength in the glue-up. The long grain in the tails and pins is where the glue strength is. That said, the rabbet actually would add slightly more structural stability, even if the slope and cope sacrificed a tiny bit of strength. At that scale, it’s all pretty negligible, however. I don’t see any real loss of strength! Thanks for the comment!
I believe in undercutting the pin sockets on the tail board, you are coming into the center from both sides, with your chisel registered in the scribe line. This removes any hump and allows the pin board to fully seat. Since it's end grain anyway, you're not losing any real glue surface.
@@BatCaveCreations ah I see what you mean. Yes, you would lose two times the depth of your rabbet. So if you have a 1/8th inch deep rabbet then you need to add 1/4. Or if you want a 1/4 inch deep rabbet, then you would add 1/2 an inch.
What you do substantially weakens the dovetail joint. To understand why, you need to do a force diagram and see how the forces and moments change when the joint is forced slightly out of square. What you did eliminates a substantial fraction of tails restorative moment. There is a reason why this joint is done the way it is after thousands of years, my friend.
I like the idea of a tiny rabbet just enough to make a stop, maybe a 32nd thick but not a rabbet as deep as what you made. I can't say it's a weaker dovetail since the mechanism of how the joint works is the same, and for the function, a half thick dovetail should be sufficient. Personally, I just dont like the look. The perspective is off when seeing how thick the wall is, then comparing it to the dovetail... sorry, I don't appreciate the look. Regardless everything else looks reasonable.
Totally respectable! And on little boxes like this, the look is very noticeable, but maybe consider it for bigger boxes or casework! An 1/8th or 1/4 inch rabbet on a 3/4 inch case is almost invisible. If the question is aesthetic and not functional, perhaps the question is where you would or would not try to use this method
Great info. The slope cut is a revelation. Well done!
Thanks James!
Seems that the slope should be vey little so the outside base is not too sharp a point. Also this does facilitate the outside getting better contact because you don't have a problem of the inside bottoming before the outside if the base is not perfectly square.
@@dpeteual yeah, I leave a reasonable amount that still needs to be chiseled back. That leaves a flat instead of a point as you mentioned. So it’s still supported, but chiseling just gets easier.
Came from Facebook group. You say not a RUclipsr but this is what RUclips was in the first year it launched. It was great, like this video.
Thanks! Just want to share things that I’m not seeing out there in the world
Love the option for how it hides the drawer groove. End up with a nice clean look and no need for a router.
Let me know if you try it out!
Holy Smokes! Centuries of dovetails yet there still remained a major improvement to invent about their technique. Bravo Eric! The purpose of my next video will be solely to bring attention to yours.
Wow, thanks George!
Nice Eric. I’ve learned a lot from Rob Cosman, I’m working on his simple bench design he has plans for. Thanks for sharing
Thanks for taking the time!
Very interesting way to build the boxes. Thank you!
Thanks for watching! Give it a try and let me know what you think first-hand!
I saved the link to this from the Veritas group on FB earlier and just had the chance to watch it. I was not disappointed, very clever! And well demonstrated too.
I shall have to try this but I see no reason _not_ to do it, which is for me at least is the take-home from this 👍👍👍
Try it out! I also understand the motivation to do it the traditional way, but if you’re okay with the parts that nobody will ever be able to see then it’s a big time and effort saver.
I've been doing this for a few years with one difference: after the rabbet is cut I then do my pins first, then the edge of the rabbet references the inside face of the pin board for layout. This way I can lay the tail board on my bench with the pin board straight up, skipping the vise altogether. It saves quite a bit of time if you're making lots of dovetail joints at once.
Nice! I’ve tried both ways, and tails works better for me, but I appreciate that you’re keeping the continental style alive!
Wow. I subscribed - want to see what else you've come up with! Thank you, Eric.
Thanks so much! I appreciated the comment you left on my chair video! There’s so much to learn and seems like we can still contribute something new or improved to our craft. I don’t really plan to be a RUclipsr in general, so hopefully all of my videos will have something meaningful that makes them worth-while.
@@ericrichter7933 As RUclips should be!
Viable technique especially for batching out multiple pieces. As pointed out by another commenter, it does thin the dovetail ends if this bothers someone. Nice presentation!
True! And admittedly, I kinda like that. The thinned out portion is the ugly side of the dovetail, so it adds a little interest to thin it out. Also, it’s much more noticeable in small boxes, but this technique works in big stuff too and the thinning isn’t very noticeable
Nice job ive always thought seeing the grove was sloppy and a sign of mass production and knew their had to be a way not to so thanks
great video thanks for sharing
Thanks Jim! Let me know how it works if you try out the slope and cope method!
I’ve seen Rob do this but never so exaggerated… my initial thought was “don’t you lose strength with the thinner tails?” But also lots of people rabbet join boxes for simplicity, so it’s plenty strong enough by itself. You’re just combining the aesthetics and functionality of the dovetail and whatever strength you lose is made up with the strength of the rabbet. I really like how different it is! Great job!
My thoughts exactly! And the lost end-grain isn’t where the strength is coming from. The glue really only works on the long-grain and I’m not sacrificing any long-grain with the slope.
@@ericrichter7933 completely agree
Nice job good tip thanks for sharing it
Right on man. Learned something new.
Interesting! I'm not sure I'm 100% convinced, but I have to admit that it's very clever. I like the efficency of the sloping cut, and hiding the groove is pretty clever (though the groove is very shallow).
Nice job!
The sloping cope part is dependent on the rabbet, but the rabbet can be done on its own to hide the groove. This is a pretty small box, so I don’t need more than 1/8th of an inch, but it certainly would scale up. And the bigger the box, the bigger the efficiency gain of the sloping cope method.
If you’re ever just looking for a few minutes in the shop to practice something, give one or both parts a try!
Thanks for watching!
This one is new to me. Definitely will save time, plus make hiding the groove easier. Thanks!
Thanks Tom! Let me know what you think when you try it out for yourself!
Absolutely perfect 😍😍
Simply brilliant! Thank You
Thanks Steve!
A rabbet is a great aid to cutting dovetals. Eric, walk me through your work bench. Are they sliding centre portions. How's that sliding centre work with the bench dogs. Thanks
Hey thanks for watching! The bench is kinda like a lazy/cheap/modified wood whisperer design. The front and back slabs are stationary and the middle just have grooves for the sliding section. The bench dogs you’re referring to technically could work, but I don’t use them for work holding.
I have the hopes of building a Moravian workbench at some point, but just like my current setup, it has to pull double duty as an outfeed table
Hey Eric….who makes that dovetail guide? How do you like the veritas plow plane?
Hey! It’s the Katz-Moses dovetail guide! It works great, but you have to scuff it up or it likes to slide around on you. I like it for the tailboard, but I freehand my pins.
The plow plane is great and really fun and quick to use and setup. I’ve never used an old plow, but I’ve heard they’re hard to use and that’s not so for this one
So to make this work you need a skew block plane and a plow plane + fence, yes? Helpful video! I like how you don't see any groove from the front.
The rabbet and plow are both achievable with a table saw or a router as well! I actually just got the skew block this week and used my table saw or just a crosscut saw and chisels to achieve the rabbet before
I’m just trying to move toward more hand tool use to avoid the dust and noise!
@@ericrichter7933 totally onboard with leaving behind the dust and noise!
Keep up the good work!
Thanks man!
Nice work. Innovative on the slope. I've not heard of this. But it is legit. Many similar approaches were taken in the early years of electric guitar building. If it doesn't show and it's not a structural risk - do it.
Oh really? What aspect of electric guitar building?
Yeah, the inside shoulder should not be seen nor heard from ever again after the glue-up!
The sloping of the tail socket substantially weakens the joint "unless" the tail face is equally sloped - sorry, guys, but physics says so. Please see my comment above, and if you have questions, please ask.
@@skwalka6372 eh, structural strength isn’t much of a concern on little boxes. This joint is still way stronger than anything with a butt, miter, dowel, or spline and the long grain surfaces are all in fact for glueing
@@ericrichter7933 if your primary concern is looks, you are correct. But it is important to understand why you would not want to do that where strength is needed. Your way of doing the joint is substantially weaker tan a properly done plain miter joint, regardless of end grain issues (emphasis on properly done). As I said, do a force-moments diagram an you will see why.
Hello, you should check out Glancy’s No.1 finishing oil for your projects. If you like what you see let me know I’ll get some over to you to try.
Interesting technique, but it does change the aesthetics of the final piece because the end grain of the dovetails is thinner than the end grain of the pins. Not necessarily a bad thing, but a different look. Excellent video.
Definitely different, but I find it attractive and interesting! In bigger casework, it would be negligible, but in little boxes like this, it does make a big visual impact.
Thanks for the reply!
Clever and very interesting. Your "slope and cope" method, as I understand it, is the same as undercutting which I have seen used in making dovetails. I wonder, though, does this significantly affect the strength of the joint because it does reduce the contact area? Nice video. Thanks for sharing.
As I understand it, the part that is undercut, no matter what the method, is not the surface that is providing any strength in the glue-up. The long grain in the tails and pins is where the glue strength is.
That said, the rabbet actually would add slightly more structural stability, even if the slope and cope sacrificed a tiny bit of strength. At that scale, it’s all pretty negligible, however. I don’t see any real loss of strength! Thanks for the comment!
I believe in undercutting the pin sockets on the tail board, you are coming into the center from both sides, with your chisel registered in the scribe line. This removes any hump and allows the pin board to fully seat. Since it's end grain anyway, you're not losing any real glue surface.
Do you need to account for the rabbet on the width of the box?
The rabbet has to be the same size as the pin board thickness! It’s about 1/8 deep and on this box it’s about 3/8 tall to match the pin board!
@ericrichter7933 sorry I meant like if I want my box to be 12 x 8 do I need to make it 12 x 8 1/2?
@@BatCaveCreations ah I see what you mean. Yes, you would lose two times the depth of your rabbet. So if you have a 1/8th inch deep rabbet then you need to add 1/4. Or if you want a 1/4 inch deep rabbet, then you would add 1/2 an inch.
@@ericrichter7933 thank you!!!
at 1:48 in the vid what is that jig he is using?
That’s the Katz-Moses dovetail jig! It’s great!
cool video thanks
@@justin-tv3pc thanks!
What you do substantially weakens the dovetail joint. To understand why, you need to do a force diagram and see how the forces and moments change when the joint is forced slightly out of square. What you did eliminates a substantial fraction of tails restorative moment. There is a reason why this joint is done the way it is after thousands of years, my friend.
I think the way it was done for thousands of years was not for strength. It was for ease of making the joint and speed.
A rebate/rabbet across grain is known as a filister
I like the idea of a tiny rabbet just enough to make a stop, maybe a 32nd thick but not a rabbet as deep as what you made. I can't say it's a weaker dovetail since the mechanism of how the joint works is the same, and for the function, a half thick dovetail should be sufficient. Personally, I just dont like the look. The perspective is off when seeing how thick the wall is, then comparing it to the dovetail... sorry, I don't appreciate the look. Regardless everything else looks reasonable.
Totally respectable! And on little boxes like this, the look is very noticeable, but maybe consider it for bigger boxes or casework! An 1/8th or 1/4 inch rabbet on a 3/4 inch case is almost invisible.
If the question is aesthetic and not functional, perhaps the question is where you would or would not try to use this method
You stole this from Rob Cosman except he handled the info in 20 seconds 😂
Not true, I did credit him for using a rabbet as well, but tips 3 and 4 are both things that he doesn’t do
Most Rob Cosman dovetail videos are 30-60 minutes long... just sayin'.
@@sfallier So what!!
Give the guy a break. Cosman has also been a cabinetmaker longer than Eric has been alive.