The Scian: The Irish Fighting Knife
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- Опубликовано: 5 сен 2024
- This week I talk about the Scian or the Irish fighting knife a hugely under appreciated weapon in Irish history. With a fascinating range and use it is a weapon that deserves more interest.
Tod Cutler
todcutler.com/
Flett Forge
www.flettforge...
Paul MacDonald
www.macdonaldar...
My School and social media:
/ kernschoolofcombat
/ theramblingkern
/ theramblingkern
Tod's workshop is fantastic, diddnt know he did Irish recreations
I can't find the painting I remember of a man dressed as a kern, but his long scian was worn on the left hip, with a hilt that bulged out in the middle, like the riser you see half way along a kukri hilt that is meant to help retain a good grip. That's quite the opposite of the strongly concave hilts that seem to be "common" amongst the few actual finds, along with the twisted wood hilts that look so distinctive.
It’s like an Irish tanto. Not the American version of a tanto but like an Irish version of a traditional Japanese tanto
@@BasedR0nin similar purpose for sure.
Very cool video, & extremely fascinating as usual. The idea of it being used (in some contexts) as an off-hand defensive weapon is interesting. I've come across a few accounts over here amongst my indigenous ancestors of a long knife being used in that fashion as well. In a couple instances, as a "shield" for the forearm against saber-armed opponents, with an offensive weapon of greater reach in the other, dominant hand. Very interesting weapon, & of course, would love to see it in use!
Hahah now I have to chop some things :) That is fascinating I had often seen depictions of indigenous americans using a tomahawk and knife in ice pick grip so that would make sense as a use.
@@ramblingkern eastern woodland native american hand weapons went through a revolution when they encountered the british and french. previously they used stone weapons, there were stone axes and stone spears and the such but they quickly purchased or traded for english style boarding axes and the such from sailors. the interesting thing is that the more well known eastern indians the ojibwe (huron) and iroquois fought in smaller tribal conflicts similar to british celtic peoples, the ojibwe would refer to british style frontiersmen of the 1600-1700s as "long knives" that was sort of their term for early american colonials. now I cannot be certain if this was connected to sort of proto-bowie pattern knifes more in a germanic seax tradition or if they are just talking about common british islander equipment such as dirks and scians which they would have undoubtly encountered when trading with british sailors and the like.
unlike most other single edged blades in the rest of the world Scians are often highly thrust orientated and they will be perfect for bayonets as well
I brought one of these, totally agree with your points.
The handle to me feels a lot like a fairbairn-Sykes fighting dagger in both shape and ergonomics
Interesting info! You mentioned the writer by the name of McDonald who says the Irish Scian was inspired or made after the Scottish Dirk. Although I have no historical evidence or knowledge, I would still be open to the idea that it could be the other way around, and that the Scian is older than the Dirk. Just like Ireland is older than Scotland. To me the Dirk looks like the newer, younger version of the Great Classic Scian. Anyway, thanx again!
It's possible but I have seen older finds of Dirk's than I have scians. Most modern Dirks and the examples we are accustomed to also don't look a huge amount like the older versions.
@@ramblingkern interesting, Thank you!
@@CherokeeBux some of the earliest dirks I believe were Pictish far predating anything here but would need to double check.
Good stuff. I have a couple of Tod's pieces but need to pick that one up too. The defensive use definitely makes sense and could be helpful similar to the pistol shown in Pringle Greens naval manual used defensively in the same way.
Yes it's interesting to see that guard and way of gripping the blade appear so often.
Amazing work and study as always! I do think it may have been a finishing up weapon worked with the style of fighting of the Kern, collar and elbow. Get the enemy down and get on top and kill him with the Scian. Just like we see with the Tantō and the way they use Judo.
Very likely the rondel dagger seems to have been used much the same in Europe. However I would not be too sure with the longer ones. I think something to note about Ireland is that less armour was being worn so less need for a rondel style blade. It's such an interesting topic and like I said a great area for research.
oh, have you seen the jap youtubes doing that! full contact, full simulated samuai armor, spears transition to judo-throw to mad stabbing with wakizashis, or long tantos! multiple opponents on the field!
The reason I think the scían was so long is because it could be used in your shield hand and you could use another weapon in the other free hand like a spear. Just like the Scots used dirks and targes in the jacobite risings, just a precursor to that.
I would tend to agree it usually appears as an offhand weapon in a period where such a thing was becoming popular and the Scots and Irish in this period were almost indistinguishable. Something I want to cover in detail in the future.
good point! scotish targe and dirk!
Yes yes. A cutting test would be nice. Thanks for the share!!
You will find a testing video on my channel.
Very interesting, I never really put much thought into the origin of the scian. I just guessed it was a follow on from an earlier style of knife as most swords are decended from other styles. I'm sure the seax was popular during the Viking period and the scian could be a development of the seax adapted to deal with maile or gambason armour. The idea that it was introduced from Scotland also leaves the same question, as the Vikings were also in Scotland and before that the Gales were in Western Scotland. That begs the question what knife style was used in Ireland before the scian ?
I would highly reccomend chatting to Paul MacDonald on the origins of the Dirk. Some going back to pictish times. There are Seaxs that look similar to a Scian and a Dirk. But most of these weapons eb and flow like fashion. In these later periods where the Gallowglass was a main stay on the battlefield it would make sense that there would be a lot of cross culture exchange of weaponary and technology. The Irish were always very quick to adapt to new technology.
Good stuff!
Thank you.
the Gallowglass seem to have had nordic heritage, that may explain how i looks sort of like a pointed seax mixed with a slimmed down dirk.
@@timbow1833 Ireland was covered in viking settlements for hundreds of years so there was definitely a huge cultural exchange going on.
@@ramblingkern yes indeed, h ard to say what was what to be sure, how was getting the dagger imported, did you seek a permit?
@@timbow1833 no the team at the shop have it marked as kitchen ware and are incredibly helpful sending these things
@@ramblingkern really, that is handy for sure, thank you bro!
So interesting! Can't wait to see more content from you!
Thanks John I appreciate the support. Feel free to share the video every watch helps.
Most seem to be very much in the rondel tradition; thrusting into gaps in armour, but as you mention, some like the Athlone knife looks a lot more like a utilitarian sgian dubh sort of yoke. Are there any examples historically of a 'specifically general purpose knife' (sort of oxymoronic), like we would have an opinel no.8 or a medieval person would have an eating/everything knife? I'd imagine it would be less than 15cm, single edged, fairly crudely made and less likely to survive archaeologically despite us having some good sites for preservation on the island.
I'm interested as I would like to get into recreating historical blades of this type. Fair play for shouting out Tod, he does great work and comes across as a really nice guy in general.
I am doing a few more videos on them soon as I want to get some accurate reproductions made. I also see Tod is releasing a range of budget swords soon which has my pocket very worried.
@@ramblingkern Yeah, Tod cutler swords look lovely and ridiculously cheap for what you're getting, as with all his stuff. The clip-point falchion is especially nice.
I'm sure you're also aware of Matt Easton's collaboration with Windlass recreating a range of swords from the Royal Armouries. Very cool, and really interesting to see him giving insight into how and why the originals were as they were, re: weight distribution, handle construction etc.
Looking forward to your upcoming videos!
@@darraghchapman yes the only issue with windlass is they are blunt out of the box but definitely ones I would like to trym
Thank you for sharing, very interesting video.
You are very welcome thank you for the support
Reminds me of the seax.
Definitely some similarities alright.
I would love to see more.
I plan to do a whole series on Irish weaponry as well as some testing too
its a lethal weapon that is,thank god i have my shillalegh
I nearly forgot to say - Moar!
Nice one mate!
Ah speak of the Devil happy burns night mate.
Another great video Nathan, fascinating stuff. Are there any historical records of the Scian being double edged? I’m sure I’ve seen a few with the first 5-10 inches of the spine sharpened
None that I am aware of.
excellent video
Thank you mate I really appreciate the support
REVIVAL INCOMMING
If holding a shield in left hand pulling the knife with the right hand around your enemy shield that's my take on how they might of using it
Very possible shields were not especially popular during the period but it could well have been a reason.
Do you have a specific reference about the scian blade from Lagore? I know there are two finds from the 'old finds' at Lagore, before Hencken's dig, but he found out a fragmentary - unstratified - third one. There is also a similar scian blade from Ardchattan in Argyll at the National Museum of Scotland, dated to the early medieval period.
Sadly not I will have a look and see if I can find anything weapons don't tend to get a lot of attention when it comes to Irish archaeology.
I started a discussion about it on our group, to see if someone has something else about them - facebook.com/groups/415188042803844
@@benjaminfranckaert5691 cool I requested to join too so will keep my eyes peeled too.
Giant heads up to anyone looking to purchase one of these from Tods Workshop. They will not customize or substitute it in any way, shape, or form. So, if you are someone who wanted possibly a blunt edge and tip for sparring practice in HEMA, you would have to look elsewhere.
Yes his workshop line will do that but you will pay a pretty penny and be on a very long waiting list if your lucky to get on it.
@Rambling Kern They just cancelled my order altogether and said they couldnt sell it to me. But that wouldnt stop any future orders. Thankfully Wulflund was able to do it with a scian they used to make but stopped selling. I would classify that one as the longer scian. Unfortunately the scians they show on their site now look just more like dirks
@@A_Moustached_Sock yes it's very frustrating that such a simple knife to make is made by so few Smith's but I want to get a nice custom made longer one done in the future.
@Rambling Kern My HEMA group has brass/gold reserved for higher ranking members so Wulflund was nice enough to make the handle out of antler as well as steel fittings. May not be accurate or may be anachronistic but it did turn out well. Im not sure if they are willing to do another one but definitely check them out if you want. I can also send you the model or picture reference of their discontinued one if you want it
Cool knife
I have Scottish heritage...It looks to me like a Scottish Highland Dirk on a diet...Of course there's the Sgain Doh, The 5 inch bladed stocking fighting knife 🔪...Me-Thinks that the Irish share simliar personal arms as the Scots (like both hated the British monarchy of old.) Especially, when fighting with sheleighly or cudgel, and a highland dirk against sword wielding British denizens of the ancient monarchy....
Yes there is definitely a rich history of shared material culture across the two nations.
good one. here's what i've come across over the decades:
* today, re lethal knife work, the big question is, that's been largely lost for the past 200-250yrs, ever since saber-duelling became the coolest thing, thus knives-as-short-sabres; its quite silly, due to the certainty that yer gonna get a regrettable wound, relative to fighting with ANYTHING longer.
* so, the big question is: what are ya gonna do, when yer in a kill-zone (hint: no cops, PERIOD.), and ya find yourself at biting-grappling range (hint: don't waste yer time biting), and all ya have is a long, slender stabbing knife?
* well, if ya stab the target in the HEART, yer guaranteed to solve this lethal problem in 10-15 seconds. i've saved 4, 5, youtubes of street-kills where this is the case, plus other historical sources, same story.
* plus, several sources claim that almost ALL lethal knife-work is stabbing.
* this also applies to finishing-off wounded animals, eg, game animals, butchering animals, sacrificing animals-- stab the heart, or its quite a wait.
* but, if ya stab, or slash, even chop, or even shoot, anywhere else-- there's NO TELLING how long it'll take to solve this lethal problem. plenty of sources on THAT. (except for a large club to the cranium, or a heavy-bladed chopper to the upper spine, spinal cord)
* but, at BITING-GRAPPLING range, the angles to the HEART are quite different than the usual dojo stuff, eg, stabbing straight-downward from the collar area into the heart, or straight UPWARD from the waist into the heart, etc, etc-- THUS the LONG blades. i've collected a few dozen example-photos of antique killing-knives from cultures ALL over the world, for hundreds of yrs; of course, thousands of yrs, probably going back to foot-long-shafted stone-bladed-spears stuck in the belt, 100,000 yrs ago, for biting-grappling range.
* plus, all the aforementioned angles to the heart ALSO apply to stabbing into chinks in whatever armor-- to the heart.
* if ya put the forefinger on the pommel, as demo-ed, that changes the angle of the whole thing, so that it works very nicely at biting-grappling range, ie, the blade along the forearm, stabbing straight downward, with yer arm tucked-into yer body, rather than sticking way out.
* also, Matt Easton said that the blade along the forearm would be a FAR, FAR simpler way to use the dagger in the left hand, sword in the right, than the usual hammer-gripped left-hand dagger.
* the majority of the long stabbing knives had very, very, few design-features that would tend to catch, or hang-up, on clothing, etc, at grappling range, OR be grabbed by the target, for an attempted disarm.
* so, the Scian is def a realdeal item, of extreme significance.
The Miodóg was basically a finishing off stabbing weapon used in conjunction with a larger sword. This is why it has no cross-guard. It also explains its long narrow shape ending in a point. The Irish had four types of fighting blades. The largest was the Claidheamhmór, then the Claidheamh, then the Miodóg and finally the Scian Dubh. The attacking ones are the first two. The Irish would have normally carried three blades, a choice between the Claidheamhmór and the Claidheamh and both of the others as back up. If you were unfortunate to lose your main attacking sword in battle you turned to your Miodóg and if you lost that you reached behind to the dip in your back and pulled out your Scian Dubh from your Crios. The Scian Dubh was often a lifesaver. Scian Dubh means "secretive knife". The word dubh usually means "black, dark" but had a secondary meaning of "dark, secretive, hidden".
Most sword blades used by the Irish were made in Spain but the Irish also made some. Your theory that a plain blade had an Irish origin is not true. I have an original late 1500's example which is heavily decorated all along the blade.
Ok there is a lot to discuss here. Are saying you have an undocumented original Irish sword from the 1500s? These are incredibly rare swords never mind from this period and never mind decorated all surviving examples have at most some fullering so if what your saying is true I beg of you to bring that example to the museum to be properly documented.
To say the scian has no crossguard due to its use as a thrusting knife makes little sense as almost all similar examples in Europe had some form of crossguard the Dirk, bollock, rondell etc so while it likely was it is still an oddity.
Miodog and claidheamh are catch all terms for sword and dagger usually given additions to specify what they are referring to. Over time the scian was used to specifically refer to this style of blade.
While the scian dubh may have existed here I have not seen any mention or reference to it especially amongst the Irish and the ones we know of tend to be much later and Scottish.
As for the importation of blades yes some came from Spain and Germany but in Andrew halpins work he also notes that it is likely some examples came from Scotland with a chance some were made in Ireland.
@@ramblingkern Yes, I have an Irish sword from the 1500's which was in a private collection for many decades and passed down to me as Chieftain of my clan. It was investigated and verified by the National Museum in the 1940's. There are many examples still in private collections and castles throughout Ireland, Scotland and further afield, it is not unusual. It is my intention to put it on display within five years when a new museum is expected to open in Donegal.
My point regarding crossguards make perfect sense. You need a crossguard mainly as a wrist/hand defence when swinging a sword. Such protection is less needed for a final thrust. McLysaght noted the scian dubh being used in the manner I explained in a medieval text and he passed it on to me many years ago. It should still be in his personal notes although I do not know of their present whereabouts. McLysaght had a large library filled with reference notes. Yes, certainly some blades also came from Scotland as there was much coming and going between the two countries.
@@cooldaddy2877 I would love to see photos of this sword if you are willing to share some.
I think my point with regards crossguards is unclear when thrusting hard into resistance eg armour or padded armour without any form of crossguard the likelihood of your hand sliding into the blade goes way up.
@@ramblingkern Yeh, I have no problem getting an image to you. Its a lovely piece of work indeed. It is just the blade, no handle. I totally understand your point regarding armour and you are right. I can suggest that the miodóg developed for internal Gaelic clan fighting where armour has always been rare, not counting the galloglaigh of course.
@@cooldaddy2877 a definite possibility for why it was made that way still an interesting and unique design.
Great video. Really enjoying the channel, can you advise the mailing situation. Was it legal to deliver to Ireland?
Yes knives are perfectly legal to ship to Ireland so there is no issue.
Were there any particular techniques used with this knife that are unique to its application?
Unfortunately we don't know there is little surviving texts from the time, between the British conquest and the archives being burned during the war of independence a lot of Irish history is missing sadly.
Cracking video. Do we know when the scian feel out of use and what replaced it?
By the mid 1600s it fell out of use as ownership of weapons was outlawed amongst the Irish it no longer had a place.
@@ramblingkern do we know if this where the cudgel rose to prominence?
@@jeremy4655 as a result of weapons being outlawed it was a big part of why the use of the shillelagh and pike raised in popularity here.
In my opinion if a dirk doesn't have the knobs by the blade it's a scian in my eyes
Some of the scian finds do look remarkably like dirks but the similarities in them in striking.
Do you know anything about the 15th c version of this knife? Todd Cutler makes one but not sure uts correct for time period I want it for.
Yes the blades are similar but I have not seen any version of these with Tod's hilt on them.
what movie is mentioned at 13:09? sounds like "how the trees"
You don't have any weight listed on these. It looks like they'd be way too heavy to swing if a heavy cane is too heavy to swing. This would have some very good usages besides jabbing somebody or cutting somebody. If I just want to give you a little love SWAT get your attention and maybe get you to go away you could turn that flat towards them and strike them with that and it would be a very intense thing not much damage but it would hurt. Then of course there's that beautiful back edge. That's a Bone breaker delux, no flex and heavy concentrated narrow striking. That's a Bone breaker deluxe right there. I can also see and usage why you would have this and a sword that does better swinging. If you were in a crowded place that sword is hard to work and bump something throws you off a little bit in the other has you. If you had something a little shorter that was thrust orientated you can work in smaller places.
I'm reminded of the Khyber Knife, which was reportedly used more as a cutter than a stabber. That said, if the reports are from living (cut) witnesses instead of dead (stabbed) victims, then there's an in-built bias there. Your Tod Cutler scian looks like it has so much taper of both kinds that it might be a poor cutter, but you'd know better.
I was never convinced that the disk guard/tsuba on the scians I had seen pictures of would have been enough to stop my hand from slipping forward onto the blade, unlike the disks on rondel daggers. So, if you're going to demo stabbing with your scians, especially the Tod Cutler one, seeing you in a decent butcher's mit or anti cut glove would make me happier.
I will do a testing video this week and see how it goes. The knife for sure can cut but with the blade profile I think it would be much more inclined to want to thrust especially with even cloth armour it does not have a lot of weight for dedicated cutting either. I will figure out some glove for the thrusting to alleviate your worry haha.
@@ramblingkern I'm looking forward to it!
Does anyone make any with a black thorn handle?
None I am aware of but that would be a nice one to get made.
Blackthorn, one word, it's the name of a shrub/small tree. If you got a knife blank then you could source your own handle or source the wood first then send it to the person making the knife.
So it seems to be almost identical, at least in 'medium sized, to the Scottish dirk.
Same blade shape, same grip. But possibly used by itself more?
Any evidence of it being used in the same hand as a target, like in Scotland?
Any evidence of it being used for non-combat purposes like the dirk?
When did they fall out of fashion? When did they come in to use? Are they fully contemporaneous with the dirk?
Did the Irish use the bollock dagger before the sgian, as the bollock preceded the dirk in Scotland?
The blades on Dirks tend to vary a good bit more and often have wider blades. Dirk grips and pommels are also very different dirks having their distinctive semi circle guard and occassional disk pommel. Scians also come in much longer blades than many dirks.
Sadly no information on its use that I am aware of a lot of Irish history around weapons is very lacking due to a variety of reasons.
They fall out of use by the 1650s when Irish customs and weapons became outlawed. As to when they came into use is very hard to know but there are very early ones in Ireland and Scotland that mirror each other.
The bollock dagger has its own interesting history but was not very popular in Ireland.
I appreciate you trying to document this stuff but I would not take much of the pictures of the past to literally. The drawing where the knife is held way above your head and thrusting down into somebody looks more like a drawing of a knife and a person being killed and the significance is not the thrusting the significance is the person being killed and the assassin so they aren't showing the technique so much as they're just showing everything that was there.
Very interesting subject definitely a stabbing knife in my opinion
I tend to agree.
Hear me out that sucker looks a lot like a bronze age épée it looks like it would handle like a bronze age epee it looks like it would fight like a bronze age Epee and it’s close to some size examples of bronze age epees
Lindybiege /lindybeige??
Did a whole video on Bronze Age Epees
@@sharps1532 yes long thrusting blades when often made of lower quality materials tend to have very similar proportions.
We were taught it was the tip of a broken sword
That is highly doubtful the swords at the time in Ireland are a very different shape and grind. While it's possible that some where the majority would have been purpose made.
I like tods scían, but the handle does not seem to be 100% accurate. I don't think they would of had brass fittings, more likely iron or just fully organic which is why most are found with just a bear tang. Tods is a bit shorter then the limerick scían as well, the limerick scían is probably the style of handle used in scíans with a twisting pattern. Tod seemed to base his handle from period art works which, i think aren't 100% true, which are subject to period artistic licence.
Yes I would love to see his sources for it as even most of the artwork seems to show these twisted or almost hourglass shaped handles and I have not seen any with a disc guard.
If you look at the historical artworks of ring pommel swords, you can see that the swords in the artworks are close, but not 100% accurate to surviveing examples. This is why I think it is better to look at surviveing pieces, then to base it on artwork that was subject to some artistic licence from the time. They were draw by English people, so they could of blended in some elements from daggers in England at the time. Which is why they have disc guards and round ball like pommels, in some of the artworks.
@@Doyle_Lorean2105 makes a lot of sense and especially when it comes to artwork of these wars it's clear a lot of them are entirely made up from descriptions.
scian. irish word for knife. pronounced "shkeen"
I've got one of these on the way, I love the history behind it! Great video!
Thank you.