Liminality - Our World in One Word
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- Опубликовано: 28 июн 2024
- We live in an age of Liminality. It's at the roots of the Meaning Crisis of Nihilism and Leftist value structures. Coming from the same Latin word as subliminal (*limin* meaning "threshold") it is a term that has entered the mainstream from its roots in Anthropology with the work of Victor Turner.
Victor Turner developed the concept in his work The Ritual Process. In this episode we will be answering the question what is Liminality and we'll be exploring it and its two cousins Marginality and Inferiority and how this trifecta shape the value structure of all society in the interplay between their Communitas/Antistructure with the world of politics economics and law - of status, power and competition - (which Turner calls "Structure").
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📚 Further Reading:
- Szakolczai Á (2003) _The Genesis of Modernity_. London: Routledge.
- Turner VW (1995) _The Ritual Process: Structure and Anti-Structure_. New York: Aldine de Gruyter.
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⌛ Timestamps:
0:00 Introduction
2:10 The 3 Types of Antistructure
5:59 Liminality
10:27 Liminality: Beyond Ritual
14:10 Marginality
18:50 Inferiority
22:17 Overlapping Groups
💚 Patreon: patreon.com/thelivingphilosophy
☕ Ko-fi: ko-fi.com/thelivingphilosophy
⌛ Timestamps:
0:00 Introduction
2:10 The 3 Types of Antistructure
5:59 Liminality
10:27 Liminality: Beyond Ritual
14:10 Marginality
18:50 Inferiority
22:17 Overlapping Groups
I went through a period of unemployment and homelessness. I know very well liminality, marginality and inferiority. Things have greatly improved in my life, I'm working and have a home. But I realize these can vanish quickly. There is always a sense of inpermanance, I still live in a conscious liminal condition.
Very similar to my story
So you went through a period of
feeling unhappy ? That's not " your
story " !! It's every single human being's story !
@@2msvalkyrie529that’s ridiculous. On what planet does “feeling unhappy” mean the exact same thing as “unemployed and homeless”? Go ask 100 people if they would rather “feel unhappy for a period” or be unemployed and homeless for a period. Get back to me with the stats.
@@2msvalkyrie529Very few people in advanced countries have any idea what it is like to be homeless. If you don’t understand the difference between being “unhappy” and being homeless, you should spend some time around homeless people and see how they live.
Liminality is such a buzz word lately, and you're taking it and wholly exploring it from its core, this is really well done! One of my favorite of your videos! I love the variety of perspectives from different people and people groups! Truly an aspect of the walk of every tribe and tongue!
Thank you Retro Mac Man! It's a concept that's been really lighting up my thinking the past couple of months and I think is becoming one of my keystones so I'm glad you can share in this thrill I have with it!
Like most " buzz words " it's devoid of meaning . As demonstrated in this vid. Still....it
sounds good when you throw it into a conversation. ?
as an artist, I like this more visual approach, keeps me interested and I see works I do not know. I have always been interested in the nature of the liminal, in the more weirder side of existence: especially in architecture at night such as gas-stations and such, and in the works of Edward Hopper and co.
There is a lot going on here including History and philosophy, so will probably find myself going back to history on RUclips.
I think this a good format and suits your particular style. Keep up the good work.
The feedback is much appreciated David! You have me kicking myself here as I missed a chance to get Hopper involved
As an anthropologist doing research on the agency of the dead, there's a lot of crossover with what you have going on here. Besides the "content" itself, and as a somehow frustrated artist, I'm blown up by the way you illustrate concepts with the work of Van Gogh, Simberg, Bosch among many others (Hopper should have his place, too). Is there a place to see the sources of the artwork?
This is fast becoming one of my favorite philosophy channels. I hope to see it gain some more traction with RUclips's algorithm. 🤙
this word is itself magical and a phenomenon. so many concepts to delve into. the uncanny, daoist yin yang and transformation between order and chaos(as jp would put it 😂), left and right brain balance(like the 4quadrants finding a golden mean), dreams and the unconcious, mortality and immortality. u can really draw metaphorically to anything that has duality, even the color gray can be seen as a mixture. so so glad to learn more about this, thanks for pushing the meta for the phenomenon, u are the perfect content for a psychology philosophy theology hungry mind. this topic seems to be a perfect blend to discuss these 3
What a wonderful comment! Hadn't been thinking of the channel as being the crossroads of these topics but I can see that!
Stumbled upon Turner through this video, fascinated by how deeply intuitive the concept of anti-structure is. A great many of my fondest memories, of whatever in my life has approached sublimity, has essentially taken a liminal space for a stage.
As a university student right now, I seem to keep stumbling upon ridiculous situation upon ridiculous situation, thanks in part to the allowance the lifestyle implies. Directly correlated to the chaos and absurdity of the situation, you would find as much camaraderie and tenderness. In that way don't we annex, or at a minimum, tame the universe albeit for a moment?
Your breadth and depth of knowledge is commendable
James, you've outdone yourself on this one. It's not just the topics you cover, it's your excellent interpretation and explanation of them that I find most remarkable. The art, the dialog...("The Jim and Pam of the office..." had me cracking up) and the analysis. Just really high quality. Kudos.
Ah thanks Nate! I really appreciate that
Just speaking the truth. 👍
Regarding this liminal time, one association that came up for me as the Hindi concept of the Kali Yuga or even the concept of the 4th turning. Are there any relationships there? They all seem to be a transitional phase of some larger cycle.
I, personally, couldn't be more in a liminal state myself, so this was a very relevant and eye opening piece of your work.
Cheers!
@@n8works interesting. I've had a few people mention that on the channel recently. Might be worth looking into the depth behind that. Well both actually - the 4th turning AND kali yuga. I do think from what I know of the Kali Yuga that it is about putting us in the mindset of transformation and of liminality - seeing us as being in the age of chaos between orders.
Delighted to hear that the work could bring a bit of solace to a fellow liminal!
@@michaelmcclure3383 you are indeed one of the ones who brought up kali yuga. Not sure what the fourth turning is I still haven't gotten around to looking at it. AFAIK there's a book called the fourth turning? could be wrong though
@@michaelmcclure3383Fascinating michael thanks for the summary! Seems well worth a deeper exploration for me in future
In a liminal space in my life right now, really needed to see this. Thank you ❤
Great to hear Holl! Always good to have a map to go with our current territory
This was an awesome video! Super well done, im always amazed how you can integrate politics, philosophy, religion, etc. Into a cohesive unbiased view!! Well done man (:
P.S. ive loved your videos for long enough that I was inspired to make one of my own! Thanks for making such cool stuff! Keep it up!
That's great to hear! I'm delighted to hear I've been some inspiration to you that's always a treat. Long may the creation continue!
Love you work, James. This one was stellar ✨
Thanks Kaleb!
Great job. Look forward to the rest of the series
its funny/horrible, that our western state of being became percieved as lifeless and rigid by its own inhabitants, whilst there probably never ever was more freedom/possibilities...where this liminality mind set will lead us i fear; hardly see potential to it :(
What great production values! Unreal! As they say here in New York City….You Da Bomb!
Haha thanks joe
While watching this video I had an ahá moment, I remembered a place in Dark Souls 2 called "Things Betwixt" which is a place at the beginning of the game, where you happen to be just after the first intro cinematic where the character begins the adventure but before actually creating a persona for your character ( choosing the class and so on, typical of qn RPG game).
In retrospective it makes perfect sense why they chose that name for that place, because your character is in a liminal space, is crossing the threshold and becoming a new type of being.
Super interesting theme, amazing video.
Thank you for this illuminating discussion
The image of the waterfall reminded me of SOAD's "Aerials". What a banger of a song.
I've eagerly awaited this next part diving deeper into Turner's work.
Working on the comics I do now I see how much of liminality itself comes up, and it gives me joy to see it being explored with sound, not fluffy or decorative, articulation.
I am currently working on a comic that has taken a heavy toll to mentally construct, fulfill and thread the narrative around, but after being exposed to the part marginality, the edge of the inside, I feel the work is being validated, where I wandered for month trying to convince myself the struggle being worth the discussion.
Realistically, it's a heavily niche subject, only those with shared or keen interst in humanities, comics, memes, and social fiction would care to engage with, but I want it to give a voice as I find the myriad of topics it could provide to rearrange and facilitate better discourse of the contense it delves into.
Yes, I am being elusive so not to spoil exactly what it's about on the whole, but it's a comic I feel that has to be released before it's too late.
Of course. Lot of fear is involved, but to paraphrase Jung, that's where my task is, both as a communicator and conduit under the role of artist.
thank you. quite amazing work. i am VERY appreciative.
Excellent explanation and very enlightening video; thank you 😊 🖤🌹
Thanks Renaissance Fairy!
@@TheLivingPhilosophy welcome James
incredible video! of an immanent fluency and quality.
I love your videos!
Delighted to hear it Ivy thank you!
amazing, thank you from Brasil
Best video about word liminal ever
Inspiring
Love the irony of the name on the sign at 19:40.
This relates to weak emergence and strong emergence in 20:39 information theory.
Mind Opening 🎉❤🧙🤶
Flux is essential and “Becoming” is a constant and not a preliminary assignation that remains unchanged for life’s duration.
Citing Marx and Peterson in the same breath, no fuggs given! Cheers!
Feels like there should maybe ALSO a nod to the foundational infrastructure layer with particular attention to the current vs. historical Resource Reality of the Cultures and Societies wherein these Ideas really became a thing. In the vertical, one can perhaps see the 3 part liminal ladder; or, rather it's more of a spherical 3D Venn Diagram THAT we could superimpose on the basic horizontally layered model of human civilization, comprised of three parts or levels, i.e., infrastructure (all techné or tech founded in raw materials: Energy, Minerals, Flora and Fauna, Water, Air, Land PLUS the innovations which have been employed throughout all time); upon THIS, there's the Political Economy (social level, human activity, Discourse, Trade, Materials Economy, ETC.); THEN, above or sitting upon that layer, there's the Supra- or Super Structure level (Ideas, Norms, Values Traditions, Rituals, Rules, Art, Music, Aesthetics, ETC.). Of course, THIS whole conception of Reality, Life 🧬, & Model for Existence in a Physical World becomes more complex and slightly more nuanced, BUT it still helps us to remain grounded in the physical universe. Affording us, alongside BOTH constraints AND possibilities, the ACTUAL people, places, events, and things that We can experience WHILE maintaining a firm grip in or grasp on Lived Experience, ETC. And so on AND so forth. Hope THIS makes sense to folks, and PERHAPS the content creator for this channel might consider expounding upon as well as further explicating WHILST incorporating the stuff advanced herein at above. SUCH that people in our shared realms of Distributed Cognition can further appreciate Philo Sophia, meaningful Ways of Being in the World, Inventiō, Communitas, AND again-- Grounded Purposeful better and better Responses to the difficult, changing world in which We live, love, and strive to thrive as Sovereign Agents.
“Everything flows, out and in; everything has its tides; all things rise and fall; the pendulum‑swing manifests in everything; the measure of the swing to the right is the measure of the swing to the left; rhythm compensates.”-The Kybalion.
What happens when those at the top of the current structure are aware of this oscillation between Chaos and Order? Can they survive the death of the old structure to be born again as the leaders of the new structure? Manipulate the rising chaos like a controlled burn manages forest fires. It seems like this is what Mao tried to do during the cultural revolution, unsuccessfully. However the CCP itself did successfully survive it and were born again, which at least presents the possibility that this manoeuvre can be achieved.
Grazie.
Grazie mille Umberto
Holy sh*t! Great video.
@thelivingphilosophy Sincere question, what could be across this threshold at which we find ourselves?
So I would say we are well and truly across the threshold. What awaits on the far side of this liminal space would in my limited imagination be a new tablet of values as Jung and Nietzsche would put it - a new Structure of society that provides a container within which our culture can coexist and move forward rather than figuring out what it all means (which is where we are now). It's a time when nihilism and the meaning crisis and mental health crisis abate and it's not such an ordeal to be a human. That's all very high level abstract stuff but that's the way I see it. Not sure if that's the kind of answer you were looking for or I've hit the point you were asking about?
I am afraid you are being optimistic. Scientism (with its most powerful weapon, technology) it's pressuring coexistence into coercion. We will feel more and more on the edge grasping to find a meaning and not fall into the crevasse. We'll feel unconsciously the sense of liminality and looking for meaning, inevitably getting lost in battles too small to have meaning. I do hope i'm being bias, fallacious and not just pessimistic tho@@TheLivingPhilosophy
The future is a land from which no traveller has yet returned umberto so you could be right. I hope I'm right but it's far from a certainty
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22:57-23:05
24:11-24:30
good
And now, all of those "margins" have become the structure, those who fought with monsters and didnt realize that in the process, became one.
This was a thoroughly helpful and informative presentation. The only critique is that it seemed too quickly to dismiss the "individualist" who represents "nihilism." I have seen the trappings of "communitas" that was driven by liminality in one setting, and driven by by nihilism in another. Ergo there is room for nihilism everywhere (unfortunately?).
The distinction between anti-structure having a net positive effect, or net negative...is whether the process was amid commitment to gratitude or commitment to resentment. The recent movements of the left (viz. BLM or antifa) are driven by resentment...whereas the populism of the right (viz. MAGA) is driven by gratitude for a country that represents freedom and opportunity for all (and they want to keep it that way).
That's a really interesting take. My initial feeling is disagreement around the the populism vs the leftism but you're given me something to chew on and that's a great thing! By the way with the nihilism thing if I'm sounding quick to dismiss it there may be an overeagerness in this - that has been my core frame (through the Nietzschean/Jungian lens) for most of the past decade and a half and it's beginning to become a piece of the puzzle rather than the whole picture and so I want to honour that by leaning into this broader perspective (for fear of the train falling into its habitual tracks). Not sure why I'm telling you that but I guess I just wanted to share the insight in that and again I really appreciate the feedback and for sharing your take
American collectivism. Groupthink is rampant. There's levels of individualism in collectivism, low individualism or pseudo individuality. Mass society and mass man, standardized. Look at China these days especially urban and influencers, the consumerism, popular opinion says china is communist and america is capitalist truth is they are both mixed economies and on a path that leads to the same thing. China is considered highly collectivist and they want lost individuals or radical atomized individualism. Both left and right have identity politics and groupthink. The strangeness we are confused about is the rise of collectivism and totalitarianism. This is the age of collectivism.
@@Animalis_Mundana I disagree that the "right" engages in identity politics. Indeed, what specific example would you give? The best I could imagine is the false-threat of "Christian nationalism." I say "false" because, unlike BLM/antifa riots and having a "black national anthem", where are the Christian riots or demands for a Christian anthem/flag to be sung/flown at national events and government buildings? In what public schools is "Christian pride month" celebrated? Furthermore, it is comparatively difficult for the "right" to engage in group think...because their emphasis is so very significantly on individualism. Instead the "right" wants everyone to show allegiance to one political flag...the U.S. flag...that everyone can call their own.
That last point (from "The distinction between...") is a huge opinion-based oversimplification which just as easily could be made as an argument for the exact opposite stance (with the American right being driven by resentment and the left by freedom and opportunity for all). It ultimately comes down to picking side A or side B based on a self-reflected identificaction driven by modern media, and from then on all arguments could be made for both sides.
@@IlIlIlIlIlIlIllIlIII Yes, it could "easily be argued either way". But the question is not what can be argued, but what is the reality? The origen of BLM (ethno-nationalism), antifa (fascism with a deceptive name), and queer-nationalism...all emanate from Critical Theory and cultural Marxism. In this context, if the words "freedom and equal outcomes" are used, it is but a patina. The very essence of those ideologies is sowing discord and resentment, to obtain "us versus them" goals, through identity politics. Indeed identity politics, between the Soviet Union, China and Nazi Germany, was the source of over 100 million dead in the 20th century. Even adjusted for population growth, that is more dead in one century than that caused by all wars, of all religions, of all time, combined.
In contrast, a patriotism that worships freedom, unity and the declaration "all men are created equal, are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights"...is the antithesis of resentment. So let's make a final comparison. The U.S. already had one of the best, most just, societies in the world (e.g. 1980's). This philosophy I called "patriotism of freedom" produced that...inclusive of the need to overcome hypocrisy (e.g. slavery) through incredible sacrifice (e.g. civil war). That same philosophy was also responsible for the U.S. having more LEGAL immigration than all the nations of the world, combined. Wow!!! Must be a great place!!!
In contrast, "identity politics" inverted that amazing achievement...and is now in the process of tearing the U.S. to shreds. This is precisely what Marxism and Critical Theory, tools of revolution, were designed to do. The very people who are so enraged/woke, are the same people who have greater benefits of freedom and material comfort than any prior generation. Why? Because, as stated, their philosophy is a commitment to resentment. And unlike "patriotism of freedom" which overcame huge hurtles of its own hypocrisy...what example of "its own hypocrisy" has Critical Theory overcome? Or cultural Marxism?
Finally, when you find adherents of "patriotism of freedom" being resentful...and you will..it is not a product of their philosophy; rather, it emerges when the beautiful things they created for everyone (all races, all ages, sexual preferences, etc) are being torn down to be replaced with hatred, fear, and jealousy falsely branded as "tolerance". Indeed, for example, the slurs of the "*-phobe" category are actually shadow projection. And man, that last sentence is its own whole topic.
I just finished Elden Ring a few days ago, and I feel like that game is a great example of Liminality. It's funny that it's set in the Lands Between.
Wow I have been absolutely obsessed with liminal spaces recently. Due to a variety of art and video games. I'm and artist and absolutely love Alice in wonderland.
Brand new fan, and also find im an absurdist from another video I watched. I absolutely love what I'm learning on this channel. Bravo sir 👏
'It's a beautiful thing, the destruction of words. Of course the great wastage is in the verbs and adjectives, but there are hundreds of nouns that can be got rid of as well. It isn't only the synonyms; there are also the antonyms. After all, what justification is there for a word which is simply the opposite of some other word? A word contains its opposite in itself. Take "good", for instance. If you have a word like "good", what need is there for a word like "bad"? "Ungood" will do just as well -- better, because it's an exact opposite, which the other is not. Or again, if you want a stronger version of "good", what sense is there in having a whole string of vague useless words like "excellent" and "splendid" and all the rest of them? "Plusgood" covers the meaning, or "doubleplusgood" if you want something stronger still. Of course we use those forms already. but in the final version of Newspeak there'll be nothing else. In the end the whole notion of goodness and badness will be covered by only six words -- in reality, only one word.
Congradulations! Once again some one got to use a lot of words.
Unfortunately Bertrand Russell is not around to dissect these largely
meaningless philosophical rambles . Instead they are praised
and applauded by RUclipsrs !!
Anyone know about the painting at @10:28 ? I wanna get one
starry night over the rhône by van gogh
❤
17:17 and what happened to the members of and the hippie movement itself - when they grow out of it and get tired of it? Seems like those trends come and go, but instead of successfully changing the society and the structure deeply - in the end the structure change and melt them down.
what is the painting at 18:24 ?
Der Lesende by Ferdinand Hodler
@@TheLivingPhilosophy thank you, good video by the way.
Man you really fucking love Goya.
I do too :)
Hahaha is it too much? I just love his vibe so much. I saw a lot of his work at the Prado in Madrid and have been increasingly taken with him ever since
@@TheLivingPhilosophy There's no such thing as too much Goya!
Indeed the hall of the black paintings in the Prado is truly unique. Total Florence syndrome in there
@@tehgankererHahaha agreed! Also yes. That room is one magical spot. Would love to go back again. And the thing was I didn't know about it. I was in Madrid and said I'd go and got to be blown away in surprise by the amazing paintings there. Florence syndrome indeed! Though I'm not quite so sensitive as Stendhal I'm afraid - probably for the best 🤣
You sound like Oliver Callan's impression of Eoin O Broin...
(great vid though)
9:10 interesting
So people living in marginality are individuals who have stepped into liminality while living in strict and structural societies?
oh my god I too wake up from wet dreams thinking about nietsche.....but often a mirror will do
Dissolve or coagulate
😮f it then Rone.
Anti structure - chaos within order within chaos , as JBP says
Nietzsche's liminal observation of the Last Man in a nutshell: "Fucking normies!"
Modernity is permanent liminality.
Interesting take, but it's worth noting that liminality isn't a revolution against Structure; it's the norm that has perpetually coexisted with Structure throughout history. One could argue that any form of Structure is essentially incomplete without its liminal counterpart. They're two sides of the same coin, really.
my comment is not meant as destructive criticism but I have the feeling you repeated the word Liminality a bit too much, nice video anyways.
Are you saying I should be more subliminal?
dont forgett about the homeless
...a structural inferiority. The meek inherit the earth as they are pressed to ascertain meaning through an attentive humility.
Interesting
Jordan Peterson’s philosophy is the antithesis of human kindness
Nice analogy yet, alas, still a Spencerian analogy...
This is a very long winded way of saying "things change"
Complete misunderstanding of liminality. Utter nonsense. 🤣
I love this comment.
It encapsulates the stereotypical RUclips comment so perfectly. ❤️
@@MadameDeSquiggles I wrote my PdD on liminality.....I wish most RUclips comments were made by people who knew something.
pfft! thoreau! what a poser!
Too much academic word salad fillers clean it up please
I mean that's philosophy for you unfortunately.
When the continental