Primed and Loaded | Is That Armor Heavy?

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  • Опубликовано: 29 окт 2024

Комментарии • 54

  • @elijahnewell8064
    @elijahnewell8064 Месяц назад +12

    Great video! I really appreciate the work you guys put into this channel, this is an excellent resource for studying an otherwise forgotten era of history!

    • @JYFMuseums
      @JYFMuseums  Месяц назад +1

      Thank you and we're glad that you enjoyed the video!

  • @michaeljfoley1
    @michaeljfoley1 Месяц назад +10

    I'm very interested in armor from this period, or more broadly, from about 1550 to 1650. I see a lot of armor aficionados and reenactment focus on the 14th and 15th century, so its very refreshing to see some attention paid to the 16th and 17th century.

  • @BloingDidoing
    @BloingDidoing Месяц назад +13

    Also dont forget that those 50 - 60 lb armors were worn by cavalry men. So at least part of the weight is carried by the horse not the dude.
    No one would do military marching in such an armor. Footsoldiers usually had less armor then cavalry for exactly that reason.

    • @JYFMuseums
      @JYFMuseums  Месяц назад +11

      Yes. Cavalry were mounted and could sacrifice mobility for greater protection. While the infantry sacrificed some protection for mobility. Infantry that were armored were also armed with pike and expected to engage up close. Infantry armed with firearms were engaged at a moderate range and not armored. Of course Virginia upended that thought, and Virginia Company soldiers were all armored.

    • @bruanlokisson8615
      @bruanlokisson8615 Месяц назад +8

      That is less weight than a modern battle rattle, the name we give to the armor and other needed combat equipment, Ammo tends to make up a good part of your weight. it's also rather well distributed. In training we carry EXTRA weight, in Rome practice swords were double the weight. A study in the late 1800s recommended a fighting load of 48 pounds, in 1950 the USN raised that to 50 pounds. A typical loadout is now adays 90 pounds for a rifleman, more for a machine-gunner, that isn't counting our packs, just combat gear. We are rather beyond the point of no return at 90, as every ounce beyond that is detrimental to survival.

    • @crazychicken7125
      @crazychicken7125 Месяц назад +1

      @@bruanlokisson8615 how much do you think we could slim down before negatively affecting combat effectiveness? I don't remember where exactly I saw these numbers, but the numbers I have always heard are these...
      *An adult can run around carrying gear less than or equal to 25%-30% of their body weight basically forever with very little training and with no extra risk of injury.
      *Above 30% requires regular breaks along with easing/training into it.
      *30%-50% Time you can carry it continuously before having a heightened risk of injury is typically counted in days to weeks
      *50% of body weight and above... Time before heightened risk of injury is measured in hours to days depending on just how high the carried weight is.
      Keep in mind heightened risk does not mean you will be injured, just that it is much more likely. Those numbers you gave are interesting, 48-50 pounds is right at that 30% threshold if you figure average weight of an adult guy is about 150 pounds

  • @snorribjorn5074
    @snorribjorn5074 Месяц назад +9

    For comparison, a modern soldier’s load-out is generally between 50 and 70 pounds, but can sometimes weigh more than 120 pounds.
    Thank you for another interesting and informative video!

    • @JYFMuseums
      @JYFMuseums  Месяц назад +1

      Good point, and you're welcome!

  • @oliverZ433
    @oliverZ433 Месяц назад +3

    finally 😍😍😍😍😍 please make more videos of these kinds 😍

    • @JYFMuseums
      @JYFMuseums  Месяц назад +2

      Do check out our Primed and Loaded play list - ruclips.net/p/PLdzBgB_06ByRgZ6JBIkNq_8RMZVvcig22

  • @billsummy2412
    @billsummy2412 Месяц назад +3

    Another AMAZING video ..... Thank you !

    • @JYFMuseums
      @JYFMuseums  Месяц назад

      Our pleasure! Glad you enjoyed it.

  • @APV878
    @APV878 Месяц назад +3

    good stuff. Also like that you have a helmet hook. Back in the days of Higgins Armory Museum in Worcester MA (now part of Worcester Art Museum), we often (got) asked about how heavy the armor was, usually followed by "how could they see out of the helmet", "are the swords real/sharp" (and no you can't touch them to see if we're telling the truth, nice try kid). Also often got asked what's up with the hook on the knight's chest plate (not understanding the purpose of the lance-stop/arret), and of course, very important, how do you go pee when wearing armor.... It's why having museums & living history interpreters are important because you can't learn much about the armor when it's mounted to a mannequin, and they don't see the supportive garments / arming doublets, padding, etc. that makes it fit you a little better.

  • @leoscheibelhut940
    @leoscheibelhut940 Месяц назад +2

    For perspective, the armor weighs much less than what a mortarman or machine gunner carried from WWII thru today. If I remember correctly, just the baseplate for a WWII US mortar weighed 60lbs and was immensely more awkward to carry than form-fitting armor.

  • @Riceball01
    @Riceball01 Месяц назад

    Something to consider is that the weight of the armor was fairly well distributed so that it didn't feel that heavy. The cuirass was designed so that not all of the weight was sitting on your shoulder, it narrowed down towards the bottom so that some of the weight was on your waist. The same with mail, except that with mail the weight distribution was accomplished using a belt. Then with a full plate harness, all of that weight gets distributed all across your entire body so wearing a full plate harness probably feels lighter than a modern infantryman does with all of the weight of their bear being on their head and torso.

  • @MLLamble
    @MLLamble Месяц назад +5

    You'd mentioned armor's thickness and composition varying based on what it was meant to defend against. Were Jamestown soldiers equipped for combat with Tsenacomoco primarily (so, arrows and hand-to-hand), or did they prepare more for conflict with Spanish and French colonies in America? Or did that shift as time progressed?

    • @JYFMuseums
      @JYFMuseums  Месяц назад +7

      The expectations were that Spain would contest English settlement in the Chesapeake, with the threat likely coming from the south. As far as the English were concerned Span was the threat, and their initial preparation was most like to deal with that type European engagement. The reality though is that conflict was with the Powhatan and they pivoted to that conflict, among the most notable differences being the greater reliance on firearms and all men being armored. In 1613, Captain Samuel Argall on the ship Treasurer and sailing from Jamestown, attacked and raided French settlements at Mount Desert Island, Sainte-Croix Island and Port Royal along the coast of what is now Maine and New Brunswick.

    • @randallsanchez3161
      @randallsanchez3161 Месяц назад +2

      I did a bit of research into this as I wear armor from the 14th century for various events and was interested in the "shot proof" armors of later periods. From the surviving examples of late 16th and early 17th century armors you see the chest plate never really dipping below 4mm thickness with the averages being 5mm-6mm. This is far different from 14th century battlefield grade (competition armor was extra thick to absorb kinetic energy from clubs and blunts used) chest plates where 3mm (arms and legs were 2mm average) is the average thickness and proof against any edged weapon and most polearms. Anything above 3mm was overkill for any form of stabbing or slashing melee weapon including pikes. 5mm-6mm suggests that even munitions grade chest plates for the early colonial periods were built towards making them proof against early firearms. Quality would be the major difference here as munitions grade would be low quality tempered steel while more expensive types would be higher quality refined steels and/or duplex (two sheets hammered together) construction.
      Oh and a interesting note on the differences between 14th and 17th century breastplates. In your video your chest plate clocked in at 18lbs. My 3mm chest plate made from tempered 1060 steel (iron and carbon no alloys) only weighs 8lbs. Those extra millimeters start to add up.

    • @JYFMuseums
      @JYFMuseums  Месяц назад

      We wonder about the thickness of the sheet metal you have stated and curious about some examples. Are we talking of Infantry armor or cavalry armor? In the book, “The Armourer and his Craft from the XIth to the XVIth century”, by Charles ffoulkes he states, “Five hundred (weight) of plates will make 20 cuirasses of pistol proofe with pauldrons. Therefore one set will weigh 28 lbs.” And. “Four hundred (weight) of plates will make 20 pair (or 40 sets) of cuirasses without pauldrons. Therefore one set will weigh 11lbs 3 oz.” A hundredweight is 112 lbs., and to achieve these weights for pistol proofed armor our armorer is generally using 16-gauge sheet, or sheet with a thickness of .0625in or 1.588mm.

  • @robertjarman3703
    @robertjarman3703 Месяц назад

    Also, they carry equipment. The harquebus would be a relatively heavy weapon, as would a pike or axe, and they carried hanger swords, powder, shot, maintenance tools, some had grenades, utensils, food, weather resistant clothing, perhaps construction equipment like a shovel, personal trinkets like their money, and other things, so that would need to be taken into account. Many also were in periods of bad weather, disease, high heat or frigid cold or mud, so the effect would be different from today under ideal conditions.

  • @duchessskye4072
    @duchessskye4072 Месяц назад

    It's also a matter of how much you wear it too. In the late 16th and 17th centuries is where we have a lot of chroniclers start writing about how soldiers were beginning to wear their armours less and less, because they did not feel like carrying around that extra weight if it wasn't going to protect them against a common gun of the day anyway. Especially in the humid climates of the Americas, but also back in Europe.
    25 pounds is not a whole lot, but once you've been wearing it for a few hours on the march it's a whole different story.

  • @sebastienhardinger4149
    @sebastienhardinger4149 Месяц назад +2

    Those cicadas are going crazy! great video
    I noticed that both of you are, like me, bearded men. What was the fashion for facial hair at Jamestown?

    • @JYFMuseums
      @JYFMuseums  Месяц назад +1

      Yes! It's that time of year when we have the hum and clicks of the annual cicadas. Back In May we had the emergence of a 13 year brood. Check out that noise in this video ruclips.net/video/bT_NrkE_Pgw/видео.html
      In the early-17th century, to have facial hair or a beard was the sign of growing from boyhood into manhood. Men had beards. Men of wealth, status, and fashion went a step further and had styled facial hair. Of course we do not have photography, but here are engravings and paintings of some of the men associated with Jamestown-
      Captain John Smith en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Smith_(explorer)#/media/File:Houghton_STC_22790_-_Generall_Historie_of_Virginia,_New_England,_and_the_Summer_Isles,_John_Smith.jpg
      George Percy en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Percy_(governor)#/media/File:George_Percy.jpg
      He's illustrated with the least facial hair
      Lord de la Warr en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_West,_3rd_Baron_De_La_Warr#/media/File:Thomas_West,_3rd_Baron_De_La_Warr_(1605).jpg
      Sir Thomas Gates en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Gates_(governor)#/media/File:SirThomasGates.jpg
      Sir Thomas Dale en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Dale#/media/File:Sir_Thomas_Dale,_by_Marcus_Gheeraerts_the_Younger_(1609%E2%80%931619).jpg

  • @rebekah-chriss-k4872
    @rebekah-chriss-k4872 Месяц назад +3

    First off great video. Didnyou have a weight for a jack o plates as well?? Also was there any use of leather buff coat type armor or briganrine armor used in jamestown ??

    • @JYFMuseums
      @JYFMuseums  Месяц назад +1

      Yes, brigandine armor was used in Virginia, with the plates turning up in the archaeology at Historic Jamestowne and in the early 1990s in archaeology at Jordan's Journey. Buff coats were probably not used. They had begun to appear in Europe in the early 17th century, but they had not reached the fashion and popularity they would have In the mid-century during the Civil Wars period. The garment to be worn over the clothing and under the armor and a predecessor to the buffcoat was the jerkin -- www.karlrobinson.co.uk/Gallery%20pages/buff%20jerkin.php
      We do not yet have a complete reproduction jack coat. We've made sections working out manufacturing techniques, but not yet a complete coat.

    • @rebekah-chriss-k4872
      @rebekah-chriss-k4872 Месяц назад +1

      @@JYFMuseums thanks for the awesome reply really appreciate it also had some follow up questions . Are leather jenkins of the style you show and talk about thick so they could by used as a standalone armor or were they just used as a under layer or overlayed for the armor? Also what thickness of leather was used on said Jenkins usually?? Secondly with the archeological brigantine evidence what's sizes of plates were used for them and are they ones found just parts and pieces or mostly intact set of plates or fully intact?? Again thanks for the reply 👍🌠🍕

    • @JYFMuseums
      @JYFMuseums  Месяц назад +1

      Note that jerkins were made of leather or fabrics. It was not uncommon for jerkins to be made from buff leather, but they were not intended to be a stand alone armor. Rather, jerkins were worn as a protective garment over the wearer's clothing.
      www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/81543
      www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/81555
      www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/771116
      We'll have to get back to you regarding the brigandine plate sizes. But, they have been found as pieces and also groups of plates where it appears the brigandine had been discarded and when recovered the plates were still in their overlapping pattern, rivets intact, but the fabrics having rotted away.

  • @stevenedington6265
    @stevenedington6265 Месяц назад +5

    To me the weight of the armor is not so much the question as how hot it is. I cannot imagine wearing a wool shirt under chain male under plate armor in the summer Virginia heat.

    • @randallsanchez3161
      @randallsanchez3161 Месяц назад +2

      Flax would likely have been worn rather than wool during the hot seasons. However, understand that metal will work as an insulator if no ventilation is provided. The metal will absorb your body heat and radiate it but that is a slow process. One of the reasons why chainmail cloth based armors persisted in use was it's ability to shed heat vs an enclosed system. Having fought in full 14th cen kit in mock battles, there were more than a few times I separated myself to crack open my chest plate to let in air and douse myself in water due to the building heat.

  • @tabletop.will.phillips
    @tabletop.will.phillips Месяц назад +1

    I see you, de Gheyn pikeman's pot. Do you all have those padded or are you using separate knit caps as the padding?

    • @JYFMuseums
      @JYFMuseums  Месяц назад +1

      Most of our helmets have padded linings, though a couple of the guys are in the middle of replacing their helmet liners and are wearing their Monmouth caps as padding. Do check out this video we posted about a helmet being made - ruclips.net/video/EngbsKNQIpI/видео.html

  • @krzysztofwinkler2229
    @krzysztofwinkler2229 Месяц назад

    Great video! If you guys only use also kilograms, for those using metric system, it would be even greater ;)

    • @JYFMuseums
      @JYFMuseums  Месяц назад +3

      Here's a nice little video on the history of English weights at the start of the 17th century. The weights that English armors were weighed in 😊. ruclips.net/video/igdzgOqYLDI/видео.html
      The armor weights shown in the video --
      Helmet 4 pounds = 1.91kg
      Quilted Armor 12 pounds = 5.44kg
      Mail Armor 22 pounds = 9.97kg
      Plate Armor 18 pounds = 8.16kg
      Original armors pictured from the Metropolitan Museum of Art
      Ceremonial Armor 34.5 = 15.64kg
      Henry VIII's Armor 50.5 = 22.9kg
      French Heavy Cavalry 77.125 = 34.97kg

  • @Locksley108
    @Locksley108 Месяц назад +1

    were horses used in combat by the virginia colonists at all? did the jamestown coloists used billhooks in battle or was it exclusively targetiers and arquebusiers?

    • @JYFMuseums
      @JYFMuseums  Месяц назад

      The first horses were brought to Virginia in the autumn of 1608, and may have been either 7 or 8 cavalry mounts. They only lasted a year before they were consumed during the Starving Time during the winter of 1609-1610. Horses were brought again in 1612. Militarily they just were not useful. Eight mounts did not make an effective cavalry force and the English made very effective use of boats and ships along the rivers. As far as billhooks about 2000 of them arrived in Virginia in 1623, and probably were pretty quickly were converted to agricultural use. Otherwise, yes the English relied on musketeers and targeteers.

    • @Locksley108
      @Locksley108 Месяц назад

      @@JYFMuseums Did the colonists use longbows in colonial virginia? they were kind of on the outward end by that point but they saw some use in the english civil war later on and there were still longbowmen in the elizabethan trained bands

    • @JYFMuseums
      @JYFMuseums  Месяц назад

      No, the English in Virginia did not use longbows. Sure, as England prepared for the Spanish Armada, archers showed up in the trained bands, but there was the question of what do we do with these guys now? Military theorists such as Sir Roger Williams, had “current” experience fighting in the Low Countries when he wrote his book “A Brief Discourse of War” quod.lib.umich.edu/e/eebo/A15466.0001.001?view=toc
      Williams was the prevailing thought on the effectiveness of the bow and the archer’s role in modern warfare -.
      “To prove Bow men the worst shot used in these days.
      Touching Bow men, I persuade myself five hundred musketeers are more serviceable than fifteen hundred bowmen; from that rate to the greater numbers in all manner of services: my reasons are thus, among 5,000. Bowmen, you shall not find 1000 good Archers, I mean to shoot strong shots; let them be in the field 3 or 4 months, hardly find of 5000 scarce 500 able to make any strong shot. In defending or assailing any trenches, lightly they must discover themselves to make faire shot; where the others shot spoil them, by reason they discover nothing of themselves unless it be a little through small holes. Few or none do any great hurt 12 or 14 score off; they are not to be compared unto the other shots to line battles, or to march, either in the wings of any battles, or before, as we term them from the Almaine phrase forlorn hope.”
      As a result of the 1622 Powhatan attack, with the Colony needing a resupply of arms and armor, it seemed that the crown took the opportunity to clean out a lot of old stuff and dump it in Virginia. In 1623 the Colony received equipment such as 400 shirts of mail and 2000 billhooks. That shipment included longbows and arrows, which colonial officials would not allow to be off-loaded.
      The English had a high regard for the skill of the Powhatan archer and had no interest in the English bow or arrow falling into their hands. The bows were kept aboard the ships and were sent to Bermuda which had no native population and the bows might have been of some use there.

  • @BeachTypeZaku
    @BeachTypeZaku Месяц назад

    At the time period of the Jamestown Settlement, armor was more like a modern plate carrier; minimal, but protective enough for what it was meant to do: protect your vitals.

    • @JYFMuseums
      @JYFMuseums  Месяц назад +1

      Well yes, that's a fair assessment for 17th century infantry armors with their need to balance mobility and protection. There were
      different considerations for cavalry armors.

    • @BeachTypeZaku
      @BeachTypeZaku Месяц назад

      @@JYFMuseums to be fair, that's what I gather from looking at the evolution of armor throughout European history.
      Mainly because of firearms, and their inherent inaccuracies at ranges generally passed 50 to 75 yards, it was seen by most governments of the time that the main target of said gunners was generally the center of human mass.
      If you had a rifle it was a completely different ball game; you could accurately hit at ranges well beyond that, but the generalities remained the same; you normally weren't aiming for the head or any vitals, you were aiming for the center of mass. Exactly, as we are trained today in our militaries.

  • @thecreweofthefancy
    @thecreweofthefancy Месяц назад +2

    Laughs in a later 17th century naval impression. (Then whines as I carry all the cooking implements)

    • @JYFMuseums
      @JYFMuseums  Месяц назад +2

      Dont forget to cry when you have to move a 252 gallon cask.

    • @thecreweofthefancy
      @thecreweofthefancy Месяц назад +1

      @@JYFMuseums I drove a tank in the Army, I just cry.

  • @Sneed-mi3ov
    @Sneed-mi3ov Месяц назад

    what kind of hat is the one worn in the end of the video and how common were they to the late tudor/early jacobean period?

    • @JYFMuseums
      @JYFMuseums  Месяц назад

      It's a good ol’ comfortable felt hat with a rakish turned up brim. Felt hats were absolutely common and are found in any number of period illustrations.

    • @Sneed-mi3ov
      @Sneed-mi3ov Месяц назад

      @@JYFMuseums i was led to believe tudor/early jacobean hats were all bonnets or felt caps without very wide brims and that the stereotypical cavalier hat appeared a few decades later but it appears im mistaken

    • @JYFMuseums
      @JYFMuseums  Месяц назад

      take a look at these engravings of Dutch soldiers from 1607, especially the musketeers - wiktenauer.com/wiki/Wapenhandelinghe_van_Roers_Musquetten_ende_Spiessen_(Jacob_de_Gheyn_II)
      felt hats in their various forms were very common, along with Monmouth caps, thrum caps and various other form of knitted caps or flat caps.

  • @VaughanWallis
    @VaughanWallis Месяц назад

    0868 Sipes Motorway

  • @tomtaylor6163
    @tomtaylor6163 Месяц назад +1

    Ha ha you guys look rather “Cavalier”. I have interest in how the fencing shown is constructed?

    • @JYFMuseums
      @JYFMuseums  Месяц назад

      The guys in our re-created James Fort are mainly working from the writings of period sword instructors such as Vincent Saviolo and George Silver.
      Saviolo - wiktenauer.com/wiki/Vincentio_Saviolo
      About his books - wiktenauer.com/wiki/His_Practise,_in_Two_Bookes_(Vincentio_Saviolo)
      Silver - wiktenauer.com/wiki/George_Silver
      About his book - wiktenauer.com/wiki/Paradoxes_of_Defence_(George_Silver)
      A digital copy of Silver's Paradoxes of Defence - quod.lib.umich.edu/e/eebo2/A12246.0001.001?view=toc

  • @sebastianbache8862
    @sebastianbache8862 Месяц назад

    What this tells me, those men who wore this armor were much smaller than today's military infantryman, who carries up to 60 pounds. Except for the professional examples you gave, did they really workout from childhood to wear the heaviest armor? Who would these men be, a personal Knight? Was this a career path back then?
    🩷🧡💛💚💙🩵💜❤️

    • @JYFMuseums
      @JYFMuseums  Месяц назад

      Take a look at Spanish Arms and Armour, by Albert F. Calvert www.gutenberg.org/files/47878/47878-h/47878-h.htm It covers a number of extant examples of child armors.
      The sons of gentry and nobility would have learned to wear armor as part of their education. They would be rather comfortable in the armor. As far as career paths and personal knights, as a social class they knightly class had gone away and had become the gentry of the early modern age. To be a personal knight was not a career path, but to become a professional officer was. To have that marketable skill, that could be contracted out certainly was a suitable path for gentry. Especially for second and third born sons.