Exactly ! People argues about perfect technique but preferences and situations plays a big role in skiing because its suppose to be for fun ! If your style is different thats great !
Nice. With out bashing any dogma based professional organization you cut to the chase. "Everything you know is wrong" ... "The more you know the more you realize you don't know much at all" "The Principal of least action" describes efficency of motion.
Ligety the king of angulation. You have a great turn. Can you talk about the carving of the uphill ski. I carve the uphill ski as much as the down hill ski. I never see anyone emphasize the uphill ski very much. Greta vid. I hope Ligety is not in pain these days.
I don’t actively think about the uphill ski carving. I think about it as my inside leg, and the focus is on driving my inside knee and keeping my shins parallel.
Key point is at 2:35 of video. "The hips are going forward and backward relative to the feet". But the point of the video is that the lighter nimbler feet make the majority of the fore aft move; not the heavier more disruptive hips. Totally agree.
Before answering the question about do we have to make forward movements during carving turns we have to ask : when and where did we start hearin about forward movement in the turn ? The race skiing scene. So, when you are racing, you are not trying to perform the cleanest skiing that possible. No! You simply want to get at the end as fast as possible. And if you watch racers you are gonna see 3 things : 1 they often start turns very much in front and 2 finish there turn a bit on the back seat, and 3 moving from that backseat position at the end of the turn to the initiation of the next turn makes them perform this forward position in the turn. Why do racers do this ? Isnt this against good technique to be back seat ? Isnt it against flawless technique to have this much useless movements in a turn ? This have to do with again, racers dont want to have flawless technique, they wanna finish first. Period. The other thing to consider are wich part of the ski does the turn initiate : the shovel of the ski it grabs you into a turn. So racers will initiate turns in frontside positions quite often. And where does a turn finish itself ? The tail, so racers will press on the tail of the ski at the end of the turn to gather as much energy when they release the pressure to end the turn and get spring in the other turn and will at the same time want to apply pressure as fast as possible in the shovel of the ski to initiate their next turn. They also wont do this every turn but only when deemed necessary to get to the end as dast as possible. So is it good technique to do it ? Yes! You don't have to be a racer to enjoy doing this or finding yourself in a situation where it would make sense to do it. Is it good technique not to do it ? Yes ! You are not racing, and you will be more decontract if you reduce the amount of movements you do in a turn. Its all about prefences and situations. Great skiing by the way!
I understand what you are saying. However the feeling I get is if I think about keeping my hips in one spot and letting my feet dart out l. I feel it’s a weaker and slower transition then by keeping my hips level and firing them down the hill. To me this move instantly puts your feet into the same darted out position but quicker, especially useful in gates. What you are explaining I feel is a fun way of doing it free skiing but not as responsive. Could be how I interpret what you are saying too.
I would be curious to see if when you watch a video of yourself when you are focused on firing them down the hill if you actually see your hips move down the hill. For sure there must be pressure to the front of the boots and tips of the skis. However this is achieved from a balanced position and not an active “move”. What you are feeling or using as a cue might not translate into what the video shows. Food for thought
@@skidadTV I agree that could be possible. But what I think is that the move is very subtle and hard to pick up in video. Can I send you a video or a link somewhere of a slow motion video of myself where I think it’s fairly pronounced?
@skidadTV it's easier said than done especially if you learned in the old days with vertical unweighting. I was fortunate to learn this back in the early 90's from the late Rusty Crook. Once you get the hang of it your skiing changes - you can go much faster with lots more control.
I've found rolling the outside edge of the downhill ski with my ankle engages that ski at transition to initiate the new turn and then pressuring the outside ski to shape the new turn has helped.@@skidadTV
The misunderstood part here is that it is not "the hips" that move you forward...the COM moves forward through each transition, by exchanging speed between COM and BOS. if it did not, you would be left so far in the back seat you'd be looking at the sky, lol. There is forward movement of the COM... the "Center of Mass" is not the hips. Great FFT.
Here's my take as an advanced skier who barely escaped terminal intermediate status: top level skiers may not have to move forward with their hips because they are always biased towards the bottom of the hill and their center of mass doesn't wander around without being in control. If Ted Liggety is in the back seat it's because he wants to be for a micro second or two. If I'm in the back seat it's because I wasn't balanced to begin with and a pile of snow threw me off my game. I totally get where you're coming from Ski Dad, but there are a lot of people, especially adult learners, who have to figure out what "balanced" feels like. It's usually a matter of overdoing "forward" (using any trick available to get there) before you can live with "balanced". Good video and nice skiing.
“Shin pressure” is an easier concept and more accurate to gain strong carver turns. The “forward move” cue creates extra movement and generally results in the skier missing the balance point in the turn. I agree feeling the balance is the key
I am sorry but, as a ski teacher (France) : Your hips position is bad as they are oriented out of the turn and locked in. It is like wanting to turn right but the middle part of your body is looking left. Your shoulders lean in the turn (they should be parallel to the slop) As a result : -You don't have enough weight over the foot which is outside the turn, or way too late ! It is not efficient as you are not properly carving. If skiing on icy snow, you are going to fall inside the turn. -You don't have control over the radius while your turn is engaged. It is kind of a sloppy style, which you can see in good freestyle riders, but this is the proper way as it is less efficient. You SHOULD have a forward movement while initiating the turn, this help putting your weight on the good (outer) foot. The easiest way to do this is by pushing on your outer leg as soon as possible at the very beginning of the turn. Please inform yourself before publishing false information.
Thanks @koukameleon I checked out your channel and the skier in the gates does not “make a forward move”. So, why keep trying and thinking about a move that doesn’t exist. Why not just accept it for what it is and focus on real moves and feelings. As a ski teacher you know that you take feedback from the snow. Do you really think that on ice I would just keep sliding out? No, I would find my grip and arc top to bottom Please try my philosophy on the snow and check back. I am a ski teacher, fully certified in fact (PSIA III) and I get results
Your assumption that I would not change technique on an icy slope is laughable. I grew up in Vermont as a ski racer and went on to race NCAA at UNH. In 2006 I earned All American honors in SL. I can handle the ice
Very clear and to the point with great description of the skiers on film to back it all up. I'm not judging but a lot of people in the comments seem to be over thinking what you've described. I think you summed it up really well. Thanks.
Dad again great video. You have your own approach to explaining things you see in skiing. And I like it a lot. But it gives us less experienced, a lot of confusion. I think to understand you need to try it out first and monitor yourself so you get what Dad tries to say to us. I'm sure that good experienced skiers get easy with everything you try to say in your way. If I watched your videos a few years back I couldn't understand your thing too🙈 Luckily for me lot of things came to me naturally as progress I do some things but do not always understand but I get straight away everything that Dad says and everything becomes clear to me. Like this subject for forward move, I can be more forward or less and it gives me confusion about how much I have to be forward, do I have to be forward all the time, M I wrong if I am not always forward event if Im balanced, now you answering to my confusions and I were happy about it. Thanks one more time.
I think you’re confusing lean forward to move forward into your turns like runner. You must put forward pressure onto your shins to initiate proper pressure to get the tip of the ski to turn. Many intermediate skiers are sitting back on their skis. Move forward like a runner into your turn and never lean forward over your tip. You clarify yourself when you use shin pressure. Deb Armstrong explains it perfectly. ruclips.net/video/jA26u1g2yvg/видео.htmlsi=0BMsrD4ckJq-mkla
Yo, great video Joe!! I loved the opportunities I had to ski with you at DV! I liked the bit on moving the feet forward and back, this is something I've started really noticing in my transitions. I've been thinking about pulling my new outside ski back under my hips so that I have early engagement and forward pressure, but not moving my hips forward. There was a fair amount of time where I would start a turn backseat, and then dramatically move my hips forward to correct, usually leading to my being inside, and having to control speed through the end of the turn. Thanks a ton for this video, it's definitely something that should be better understood.
aaahhh yes but the hips are your center of gravity and the center of momentum, therefore they are indeed in motion , trying to remain in the center position and anticipating the next turn....
YES!!! YES!!! and YES!!!! That is a great teaching lesson Ski Dad.... just subscribed to your channel looking forward to see other videos you may have out already or coming up. As you explain here the almost illusion of your upper buddy sitting back or moving back is just that. I have been told that I should push the upper body forward, that I look like I am sitting back. But what I'm really doing is pushing my feet and legs forward at the initiation of the turn to the point that I feel the ski loaded and grabbing the snow "edge holding" then quickly "recoil" or absorb the energy back as you unload in preparation for the next turn. YES... your upper body, hips to shoulders, will remain in place not much back and forth movement. And YES it doesn't matter the width, length or turning radius of your ski, in my personal opinion the skier drives the sky and not the other way around, your technical abilities and ski style dictates the type of ski that you prefer to use that day given the conditions. here in the East you will be surprise what my daily driver is. I own an Enforcer 88, an Enforcer 104 and a Salomon Blank 112.... Guess...... not the 88's.
But you’re skiing the intuitive way and skiing is counter-intuitive. Be forward on your skis to slow and control speed; lean back for speed but less control. You should be steering your skis in turns leaning forward down the hill. Try it you’ll see a difference.
Your hips does not move forward but Ted's hips move forward, it's clearly visible. He extends the hips more than you do and when you extend the hips guess where they are going... forward.
I’m curious how you define “extend” the hips. If I say extend my arm it’s clear I’m reaching out in some direction. Hips extending? My point in this video was to remove terminology that is misleading. Adding more misleading terminology to maintain the old way of thinking about it won’t help people ski better
@@skidadTVhip extension is the movement so I think "to extend" is the right verb to use... Ted opens the angle between the lower back and the femour. That's extending the hips.
I totally see what you are saying, but I'll offer this thought. At the top of the turn you extend the new outside leg. We know early edge and leg extension for this type of turn is key. If you are doing this correctly, your binding should get forced behind your hips, not in line or under your hips. This creates the "forward" movement and directs pressure towards the fore body of the ski. So while there's no active upper body or hip movement the forward movement comes from extending the outside ski binding behind the hip at the top of the turn.
Based upon this video, I notice that often during the turn transition period I am backseated. I notice it at that moment when either (you pick) my COM is crossing over the skis or the skis are crossing under me. Even during my time in PSIA it was always move up and forward with hips into the new turn. My daughter is a U16 racer and they are telling her to pressure more at the beginning of the turn and keep pressure through the apex of the turn but somewhere they are not conveying their message such that she is translating it into her movement yet. I realize this topic may perhaps be more rec skier driven and not trying for thread drift so please excuse me if I am.
Jeff, I made this video for you and your daughter. Watch my video with her then go free skiing. The worst thing that can happen is you have and awesome time with your daughter laughing about what an idiot I am 😀
Please define the pole plant if it is or isn’t happening here or it’s overall utility moving weight or simply synchro dynamic initiation. Your speaking to a now 30 year carving snowboarder with 20+ skiing/racing *all mountain shredding pre~parabolic back exploring 4edges…Cheers
I run a pole plant motion that may or may not end in a tap of the pole in the snow. I worked on pole plants for years when I was younger, I don’t think about it much now. In general a pole plant is a rhythm and tempo thing. It does not necessarily have an effect on the turn
I feel like you can listen to any number of highly advanced skiers and there's a never ending variance of descriptions of what the sensation is to them and how the body achieves high performance... it all translates really poorly into language, sorry. No fault to any instructors, its just too hard to articulate. Your brain is doing so much you are not aware of at lightning speed on such a complex body. It's probably not possibly to decode whats going on. I think I gotta hope it just clicks, eventually
At the high end I agree- below that though and I think teaching a forward move is useful, because it describes the feeling, if not the actual movement, of a good transition into the top of a turn. remaining balanced over the ski as it tips towards the fall line requires your body to tip with it and to people who are less than expert, that sure feels a lot like "moving forward." great video.
Yes Dude, "moving forward" is a useful cue for beginner and intermediate skiers, however I try to avoid giving cues that will have to be removed later. You could instead talk about pressing on the front of the boot, getting the same result with a cue that will remain accurate all the way up to expert skiing.
Dudeabides, also a good description. But, staying balanced over the center is important as he says especially in moderate to steep bumps. Rem to only weight the downhill ski and just float the uphill near weightless parallel to the downhill, one keeping the tips open downhill.
@@skidadTV YES YES YES to the practice of avoiding cues that will have to be removed later !! the single greatest practice in the vocation of teaching anything. every shortcut we take as instructors, our students pay the price : key elements of their technique will be based on compensation movements, which are difficult for any human being to unlearn.
@@JB91710 respectfully, you have the biomechanics wrong ... stand upright, get balanced in the middle of the arches of your feet, hands to hips ... use your legs to lower your pelvis any amount WHILE MAINTAINING THAT PERFECT BALANCE POINT ... if your balance didn't shift, it means you flexed equally at ankles knees and hips ... or in other words ... when your ankles flex, your knees move forward in space, into the tongue of your boot
@@shawnphillipsyoga In an expert setting, 'move forward' can still be used accurately, so long as you are being clear that what is moving forward is the center of mass and 'forward' is down the fall line, not toward the tips of your skis. At the apex, CoM and feet are just about even in regard to their progress (and orientation) down the fall line, then feet start to get out ahead as the CoM preps for transition into the next turn where it will 'move forward' down the fall line and once again meet up with the feet in the next apex.
If you have to think about this stuff you’ll never be an incredible skier, like me. Skiing is about feeling and anticipation, not this dorky hyper-analysis.
Your feet moving back moves your COM forward! This relationship of moving along the ski as it accelerates under you is a fundamental mechanic of skiing. In this lesson, you are able to show very large very mid foot balanced turns on moderate slopes, but as soon as things become quicker and more intense, this connection between the front of the foot becomes more imperative. I like your stuff!
''There is no forward move into the turn.'' Maybe for you, but not for Mikaela Shiffrin (and, humbly, for me as well). If you are a bit curious, just take a look at the video ''Forward double pole plant drill'', her most precious drill. If you think ''forward'' is about poles (and therefore hands), listen carrefully her comments about that drill. ruclips.net/video/RniHI8v-uT8/видео.html
You miss interpret my statement. There is no forward “move” Of course you need to be in a forward position, shins on the boots spine angle matching… The double pole plant ensures you are in the forward position. My statement is that there is no “forward move” from the hips into the turn. In this video Ted Ligety’s hips remain static at initiation.
@@skidadTV I looked at your video again. I should have listened more carrefully to the introduction cause I should have understood that your title ''There is no forward move into the turn.'' is not an absolute (short turns, for instance). Maybe the title should have been ''There is not always a forward move into the turn'' or ''There is no forward move into certain turns''. Next time I'll listen more carrefully instead of taking a quick forward move into the video ! Regards :))
Very good video. I am getting back into skiing after 42 years and am having to relearn how to ski using today's ski's and style as compared to the mid to late 20th century. It's very different, and challenging to unlearn what I know. even after so many years.
While I agree with what you are saying, only probably less than 1% of skiers can or want to make turns like that at that speed. The reality is that all you have to do is step from ski to ski. It's as simple as that. When you step to the up hill, you release the edge of your down hill ski and you are into the next turn. Keeping your hips and upper body as quiet as possible is key regardless of how fast you are skiing.
This is what I think is true, when it comes to the turns of the torso (hips). Maximum separation means that you do not move your torso (including your hips) to the sides of the slope, your whole torso faces the fall-line continously and you let your legs turn aound under your torso on their edges. But this is only partly possible, because the torso must turn at least a little also, at the shortest carving skiturns. The wider turns you want to make, the more your hips must turn backwards at the end of the transition and forwards at the start of the turn after the edgings. I don´t get, why do you think it is so important, not to turn your torso? Smaller turns of your hips are very useful and they do not make the carving turns harder to execute.
Twisting of the torso is definitely happening, that is not the focus of this video. I am focusing on the forward and backwards movement of the hips and torso. This back and forth movement is a byproduct of balancing over the feet and skis, not an active "skiing move"
I think there are a lot of things one feel that really do not show. Hips forward is inmo one such thing. When I drive my outside knee really hard into the turn ... my hip is also driven into the turn / forward.
I noticed a difference between you and ted : ted is entering the turn with more power because his COM was more forward when skis were flat. You seem to push more your skis laterally entering the turn since you are a little bit late there... That is what I see. Second point: you keep your inclination more longer than Ted (timing).
I would have like to see a demo of what moving forward into the turn would look like would be a nice visual and see how that would effect how the skis respond through out the turn.
Don't forget to observe the outside arm and hand on both these guys pulling their weight/hips around and thru the the outside of the turn to be properly set up for the next turn. Critical.
You sure are molly. That’s how the turns stay rad to the bottom of the hill. If I go pure roll I will continually generate speed and eventually be out of control.
It may make a huge difference to understand the complexity of a carved ski turn for hockey skaters... there seems to me anyway that skating has some very similar movements.
It’s all relative based on the cues one chooses to use. You could also argue that you are moving your hips forward in each transition back over your feet, instead of your feet being pulled back underneath your body. For the quicker shorter radius turns it is sometimes easier to think about it as just pulling your feet back instead of moving your whole body over
The thing is though. I am not thinking about moving my hips. I am trying to keep them centered and balanced. I don’t need to “think” about something I’m not actually doing because I am “doing” the thing that I want to do.
@@skidadTVI watched highlights of second day’s Run 1. The forward move I see looks to me to be part of a propulsion effort, to build speed at the start. The second skier seems to more of it than the first skier. I guess you’re saying that for the longer at-speed turns in your video, some folks would want to do the same? Anyway, I’ll wait for the video on this subject that you spoke of doing
@@karlo407 you saw it. The forward hip move is to generate speed. When you are on a steep run you are not trying to accelerate each turn, the speed would become unmanageable at some point. On a steep run simply maintaining speed is the key. So, no forward move.
I don’t get it, I linked carved turns the whole way down. I felt great, had G forces working against me. And people seek me out in the lift line to compliment my turns. I think I’ve got “it”, so why won’t you take the honest advice of a guy with “it”
Totally agree. That's something I got to know when I skied moguls. Human CANNOT move the center of gravity forward on snow, it slippery. Human can only use hamstring to pull the foot back. It only matters where the foot are, and everything from hip to head is aligned and stacked naturally. I'm not sure if this observation/feeling is correct?
Good tip for the avg recreational skier for a quick fix…..not for ski racers. Yes you need to have hips square in order for knees to work parallel together, and the simpler it’s done the easier it is to allow the skis to do the work for you, they have a radius for a reason……..but please explain one thing : do you know what a rise line is? If so, then how do you build pressure past the rise line without moving your hips forward…and wait for it……only on the flats, with no momentum? I’ll wait for an answer.
The concept of no for and aft makes sense for shaped skis. As someone who took up skiing on straight skis I need this as a reminder because we were encouraged to adopt a lot of up and down ( weighting and unweighting)which leads to for and aft movement. Shaped skis if they are skied from the feet and ankles do real well with a quieter torso.The movement I guess is kinda for and aft but in such a subtle way that the torso and upper body doesn't get involved as much. When the torso starts going to much for and aft I think you find yourself getting off the place where you can control the skis which is directly under your body when it is square to your skis.
Do you think I could accomplish this type of carving on a blizzard rustler 10? Are they too soft unlike the older peacemakers? Turning radius to short 16m? Or no excuses !!
Way too many people, ski instructors included, tell their students to “move forward“ to start the turn. I completely disagree with that take. If you move forward to start the turn, it is very unlikely that the tail will follow the exact track that the front of the ski started causing skidding. Maybe the Carv Insert can actually show the minuscule amount of time that someone is using the ball of the foot as a reference. I say “don’t move forward, stay, balanced, if anything, there should be more pressure, especially at the end of a turn on the heel. I have nine years experience as a ski instructor at Mammoth Mountain and Mount Rose.
You must be on the front of the ski for it to engage and make the start of the turn. Look where the head is as Ligerty goes up and down his head moves forwards so putting weight on the front of the ski as he starts the turn. As he stands up to start the transition his head moves backwards disengaging the front of the ski slightly. Its a subtle movement and its hard to spot as they are skiing so smooth but the figure of 8 movement and weight transfer is there.
That is True @fam4449 I am putting maximum effort into these turns. I rely greatly on my willingness to power the ski to make these turns. Its what makes it so fun!
Thank you for making this video. It's frustrating that so many instructors and coaches cling to this obsolete idea of "moving up and forward" in the turn for performance skiing. Moving "up and forward" is a balance-disrupting movement. There is no muscle or muscle group in the human body that "moves the hips forward" in a ski stance. By default, you must use a slow, crude, inefficient combination of muscle contractions to force the hips UP then forward, rather than the more effective strategy of pulling the feet back underneath through ankle dorsiflexion and hamstring contraction. Fore/Aft Balance happens below the knee, not in the hips.
Since when it’s easy for bringers up to expert skiers to do flex to release ? It’s hard very hard that’s why racers can do that pretty well. Yes up and forward is challenging, not natural and disruptive for balance . But you and others that do not agree , would you share your ideas how instructors and coaches should train all those intermediate , advanced , expert skiers ? Any ideas . Flex to start the turn is not easy at all. As it’s not natural to extend up and forward for turn . And if you tell me that it is easy , ok then we start with the jokes then
I got good at skiing then started teaching. Many teachers got good while they were teaching. They cling to the ideas that they had to struggle through to get good not realizing that those concepts slowed their progress
Good video thank you for making and posting it. Is there anything to try to save the condition of are thumbs from wearing out on our gloves when carving? I have at least a half a dozen pair of gloves the thumbs are worn down from touching the ground when carving. I end up cutting them with hot glue to extend life of the gloves
Great question! No, I am not “actively” pulling my feet back. At the start of the turn I am focused on getting pressure to my outside ski and moving back across the hill
@@skidadTV - Thanks for the further insight. As you & other experts mention fore-aft pressuring of the ski thru the turn, I often wonder how this is achieved in practical terms, without unbalancing moves of the upper body. Is it just the ski decelerating (relative to the upper body) as you begin to arc it, then accelerating as it is flattened at the end of the turn?
It’s all balance and feel. The simplest way to think about it would probably be pressure on the front of the boot. Move forward is more pressure aft is less
Nice skiing here! However the tiltle of your video: "There is no forward move into the turn" is a little misleading since at the end of the turn you and ted are normally at the back seat and if "There is no forward move into the turn" you should stay in the back seat all along the turns:)
How about There is no forward “move” into the turn Of course the COM moves with relation to the feet. However the hips stay static while that relationship changes. Thus, there is no “move”
@@skidadTV I got your point of view. However Hips and COM are quite the same right? So you are just saying 1/ COM moves and 2/Hips are static... you see? So the question remaining is how your COM "moves" wrt the feet ! When and how? Let's say you try to keep centered when your skis are flat. From that point up to the begining of the turn in the outside ski, your COM just moves forward ballisticaly because your are in the "relax" phase. No muscle just some abs and some anticipation, not staying in the back seat. My coach used to say: " (external) quadricep vertical" when entering the turn...
Hips are a joint, more specifically the pelvis is a joint. Center of mass is a point, a point that does not move, that cannot flex or extend. Just because the COM moves forward relative to the feet does not mean that the hips/pelvis made a move
@@skidadTV as an aproximation, the COM is in the middle of your hips :) And when you are doing some hip extension your hips (and COM) are moving forward.
Why do you lift the inside leg? May i suggest you don't? Instead, just slide that foot forward. That will also shift your weight forward and distribute your weight evenly accross both skis, save your thighs. Letting one ski go deeper into the surface of the snow will also slow you down.
I’ve tried the “slide inside leg forward” thing and it reduces my athleticism on my skis and does not create an improvement in performance. As I state in the video I am not trying to move my weight for/aft. At these speeds and intensity. I’m trying to stay balanced so I can make these turns top to bottom on any terrain
Even weight on each ski at the part of the turn I believe you're suggesting would put a very uncomfortable amount of my balance on the pinky toe side of my inside foot, which is much less stable than the big toe side of my outside foot.
@@Dudeabides422 Don't worry. It won't, not unless you have a foot injury or 'problem' feet. Additionally, lifting your inside foot in soft powder will not help you. It's a bad habit of bad ski teaching that we've had for yeeeeeeears. But to be honest, if the smile is from ear to ear, it's the main thing.
@@perro0076 in soft powder sure, that’s a whole different can on worms. Modern ski instruction definitely has issues but shortening the inside leg isn’t one of them.
@Dudeabides422 he-he, no, not shortening. After you commit to taking a turn, slide the now new inside foot forward, but it only needs to go as far as the centre of it to be level with the toe of the new outside foot. It's a very subtle movement. You still have to do all the other good things as pointing your thigh bones and face to where you want to be going. Practice it by first standing in one flat place and slide your feet back and forth, as if you were pretending you're about to take a forward step, but not actually taking it and changing your mind half way in the motion. You're looking to feel how your body weight is evenly on both feet. You can always exaggerate the move by doing a full lunge just to practice, but it's the feel of weight distribution you're after.
Love it! I ski Tahoe where are you skiing those blizzards? I like the visual idea of pushing the uphill ski forward to get the carve right as you say get the knees parallel
Great demo.. for me in repetitive exercises like skiing, the key is to be efficient. That means only actively moving what u need. Gravity is ur friend here, as soon as the outside leg takes the pressure off, the rest of the body will want to move downhill. All we have to do is let it do that. It can be almost totally passive and feel like weightlessness for a short time. The only real work is in reapplying the pressure to the new outside ski, and that feels like a natural defensive movement to stop falling down the hill. Ted n you beautifully show retraction of the outside leg which starts the turn. After that physics takes over. then its a matter of choosing the right moment to reapply pressure on the new downhill ski to complete the turn. Any movement of the hips or the legs fore-aft is mostly passive. That way one can ski all day without fatigue. If its tiring its probably wrong.
I'm a lousy skier who overthinks everything. Here's my long, overthinking way of agreeing with Ski Dad. My take is that what you want is your torso+pelvis moving down the hill at a constant rate. Meanwhile, your skis are back and forth under you. Obviously, you and your skis have to move down the hill with the same *average* rate (since the skis can't get very far away from your torso). Also, obviously, when your skis are moving across the slope, the downward component of their motion is a lot less than it is when they're pointing straight down the slope. That means your torso's up-down-hill-position is catching up with and passing your skis when they're moving across the slope, i.e., during the turn transition. So, like Ski Dad says, you do not need to actively move your torso down the hill during the transition. You simply have to *not stop* your torso from passing your skis, which it will do on its own out of inertia if you just let it. (This is hard for beginners to do, because every instinct is, holy crap, I'm getting ahead of my skis, I'm going to be mashing my face into the snow in a second if I don't push my torso uphill against the outside ski towards the end of the turn). It's very hard for the beginner to trust his skis to start the new turn, point themselves downhill, and then catch up with his torso. So we tell beginners to actively move downhill in the transition, when all we're really trying to get them to do is to not slow down their torso, and just let their torso's momentum carry their torso downhill past their skis. This was a long way of agreeing with everything Ski Dad says in this video, but viewed from an over-thinking point of view of how the relative downward velocity between skis and torso must change if the torso-down-hill-velocity is constant and the ski-down-hill-velocity is not (skis going more downhill in the middle of the turn, and more across the hill during turn transition). Curious if people agree with this take. (Unfortunately for me, I'm better at vector algebra and free-body diagrams than I am at actually making it down the hill!)
@@JB91710 thanks JB. Are there any ski courses you would recommend? I have both Lito Tejada-flores' Breakthrough on Skis, and also Harald Harb and Diana Rogers' videos. I like them both though they are actually quite different (Lito focuses on weight transfer, Harb on rolling the ankles). I'm planning to take a lot more lessons this season too.
Found your videos yesterday. I started skiing last season and skied 20 days. Still pretty beginner because I am learning myself, I have been trying to visualize a lot and watch videos before the hitting slopes. I agree that there's no forward movement, because if I lean too forward then I lose my center of mass and can't pressure/balance on my downhill ski and pressure starts to build on inside ski which will lead to a wedge or crash. Maybe a good exercise on dryland is to get your ski boots and try to balance on one foot and start moving your torso/hips. It made me understand that it's not actually forward but instead balance on my outside leg. Obviously it doesn't mean to forfeit inside leg, bending knee is important on inside ski because inside ski is a little forward than the outside, which naturally creates the shin contact. Please correct if this is not the right sensation though, your content is rad.
IT IS ALWAYS NECESARY TO Move forward. We can talk about it...but what you saying is not accurate. I can see from how you move your arms that in the initiation of your turn something weird is going on in your arms, Perhaps that is why you are saying is not moving forward. I IS necessary to move forward or you will be in the backseat. I've been a coach and a trainer for 30 years-
That’s beautiful skiing. Seems like there are quite a few different ways to ski, but this is a beautiful way to ski
Exactly ! People argues about perfect technique but preferences and situations plays a big role in skiing because its suppose to be for fun ! If your style is different thats great !
I make turns that beautiful in my dreams lol. Great stuff, liked & subbed!
Nice. With out bashing any dogma based professional organization you cut to the chase. "Everything you know is wrong" ... "The more you know the more you realize you don't know much at all" "The Principal of least action" describes efficency of motion.
It’s not all wrong… just most of the high end stuff
Ligety the king of angulation. You have a great turn. Can you talk about the carving of the uphill ski. I carve the uphill ski as much as the down hill ski. I never see anyone emphasize the uphill ski very much. Greta vid. I hope Ligety is not in pain these days.
I don’t actively think about the uphill ski carving. I think about it as my inside leg, and the focus is on driving my inside knee and keeping my shins parallel.
@@JB91710 Totally disagree. The inside ski for control on not just groomed rail turns, but in all aspects of terrain and snow conditions is a must.
@@JB91710 You can do it or you cant. Takes years to get it right.
@@JB91710
Old school. Nuff said.
@@JB91710 Like I said. You can either do it or you cant. Obviously you cant.
Key point is at 2:35 of video. "The hips are going forward and backward relative to the feet". But the point of the video is that the lighter nimbler feet make the majority of the fore aft move; not the heavier more disruptive hips. Totally agree.
Well put John, you nailed it!
Nice
Before answering the question about do we have to make forward movements during carving turns we have to ask : when and where did we start hearin about forward movement in the turn ? The race skiing scene.
So, when you are racing, you are not trying to perform the cleanest skiing that possible. No! You simply want to get at the end as fast as possible. And if you watch racers you are gonna see 3 things : 1 they often start turns very much in front and 2 finish there turn a bit on the back seat, and 3 moving from that backseat position at the end of the turn to the initiation of the next turn makes them perform this forward position in the turn.
Why do racers do this ? Isnt this against good technique to be back seat ? Isnt it against flawless technique to have this much useless movements in a turn ? This have to do with again, racers dont want to have flawless technique, they wanna finish first. Period.
The other thing to consider are wich part of the ski does the turn initiate : the shovel of the ski it grabs you into a turn. So racers will initiate turns in frontside positions quite often. And where does a turn finish itself ? The tail, so racers will press on the tail of the ski at the end of the turn to gather as much energy when they release the pressure to end the turn and get spring in the other turn and will at the same time want to apply pressure as fast as possible in the shovel of the ski to initiate their next turn. They also wont do this every turn but only when deemed necessary to get to the end as dast as possible.
So is it good technique to do it ? Yes! You don't have to be a racer to enjoy doing this or finding yourself in a situation where it would make sense to do it.
Is it good technique not to do it ? Yes ! You are not racing, and you will be more decontract if you reduce the amount of movements you do in a turn. Its all about prefences and situations.
Great skiing by the way!
I understand what you are saying. However the feeling I get is if I think about keeping my hips in one spot and letting my feet dart out l. I feel it’s a weaker and slower transition then by keeping my hips level and firing them down the hill. To me this move instantly puts your feet into the same darted out position but quicker, especially useful in gates. What you are explaining I feel is a fun way of doing it free skiing but not as responsive. Could be how I interpret what you are saying too.
I would be curious to see if when you watch a video of yourself when you are focused on firing them down the hill if you actually see your hips move down the hill.
For sure there must be pressure to the front of the boots and tips of the skis. However this is achieved from a balanced position and not an active “move”.
What you are feeling or using as a cue might not translate into what the video shows. Food for thought
@@skidadTV I agree that could be possible. But what I think is that the move is very subtle and hard to pick up in video. Can I send you a video or a link somewhere of a slow motion video of myself where I think it’s fairly pronounced?
For sure! I am happy to look at your video or anyone else’s! Send to dunn83@gmail.com
nice video.
Center of mass moves laterally over the base of support
Yup
@skidadTV it's easier said than done especially if you learned in the old days with vertical unweighting. I was fortunate to learn this back in the early 90's from the late Rusty Crook. Once you get the hang of it your skiing changes - you can go much faster with lots more control.
Think of your feet moving 1st
I've found rolling the outside edge of the downhill ski with my ankle engages that ski at transition to initiate the new turn and then pressuring the outside ski to shape the new turn has helped.@@skidadTV
You can clearly see a leg pull back, hence the body moves forward
The misunderstood part here is that it is not "the hips" that move you forward...the COM moves forward through each transition, by exchanging speed between COM and BOS. if it did not, you would be left so far in the back seat you'd be looking at the sky, lol. There is forward movement of the COM... the "Center of Mass" is not the hips.
Great FFT.
It's tricky on 205 skis from 1982.
I'v watched plenty of classic ski films and I think the statement would have been accurate back then as well
Great video maan, really useful as all the rest of yours. Could you tell me please, what skis Ted Ligety rides on the video?
I don’t know the exact model but it was 180-183cm 85-90mm under foot it may have been a prototype. Sorry I don’t know exactly
@@skidadTV thanks
Here's my take as an advanced skier who barely escaped terminal intermediate status: top level skiers may not have to move forward with their hips because they are always biased towards the bottom of the hill and their center of mass doesn't wander around without being in control. If Ted Liggety is in the back seat it's because he wants to be for a micro second or two. If I'm in the back seat it's because I wasn't balanced to begin with and a pile of snow threw me off my game. I totally get where you're coming from Ski Dad, but there are a lot of people, especially adult learners, who have to figure out what "balanced" feels like. It's usually a matter of overdoing "forward" (using any trick available to get there) before you can live with "balanced". Good video and nice skiing.
“Shin pressure” is an easier concept and more accurate to gain strong carver turns. The “forward move” cue creates extra movement and generally results in the skier missing the balance point in the turn. I agree feeling the balance is the key
Terminal intermediate status. That’s me for sure. 🤪
Omg the man the myth the legend my boi JB is back ladies and gentlemen! 😭😭😭
I was told to balance from ground up all the time. and never think about kicking your feet out. I am a bit confused.
Nothing to be confused about. Just go out and try for yourself
I am sorry but, as a ski teacher (France) :
Your hips position is bad as they are oriented out of the turn and locked in. It is like wanting to turn right but the middle part of your body is looking left.
Your shoulders lean in the turn (they should be parallel to the slop)
As a result :
-You don't have enough weight over the foot which is outside the turn, or way too late ! It is not efficient as you are not properly carving. If skiing on icy snow, you are going to fall inside the turn.
-You don't have control over the radius while your turn is engaged. It is kind of a sloppy style, which you can see in good freestyle riders, but this is the proper way as it is less efficient.
You SHOULD have a forward movement while initiating the turn, this help putting your weight on the good (outer) foot. The easiest way to do this is by pushing on your outer leg as soon as possible at the very beginning of the turn.
Please inform yourself before publishing false information.
Thanks @koukameleon I checked out your channel and the skier in the gates does not “make a forward move”. So, why keep trying and thinking about a move that doesn’t exist. Why not just accept it for what it is and focus on real moves and feelings.
As a ski teacher you know that you take feedback from the snow. Do you really think that on ice I would just keep sliding out? No, I would find my grip and arc top to bottom
Please try my philosophy on the snow and check back. I am a ski teacher, fully certified in fact (PSIA III) and I get results
That guy from France is correct. You would be sorry on a narrow steep northeast bumb run.
Your assumption that I would not change technique on an icy slope is laughable.
I grew up in Vermont as a ski racer and went on to race NCAA at UNH. In 2006 I earned All American honors in SL. I can handle the ice
@@skidadTVhe’s talking about bump runs.
#legend more kids videos please!
Very clear and to the point with great description of the skiers on film to back it all up. I'm not judging but a lot of people in the comments seem to be over thinking what you've described. I think you summed it up really well. Thanks.
I've never seen so many experts as I do on RUclips skiing videos..ski instructors everywhere 😂
And, as at the bar, they make sure you know it one way or another 😊
Yupper, always did this. Push AND pull, stable upper. Good video.
Dad again great video. You have your own approach to explaining things you see in skiing. And I like it a lot. But it gives us less experienced, a lot of confusion. I think to understand you need to try it out first and monitor yourself so you get what Dad tries to say to us. I'm sure that good experienced skiers get easy with everything you try to say in your way. If I watched your videos a few years back I couldn't understand your thing too🙈
Luckily for me lot of things came to me naturally as progress I do some things but do not always understand but I get straight away everything that Dad says and everything becomes clear to me. Like this subject for forward move, I can be more forward or less and it gives me confusion about how much I have to be forward, do I have to be forward all the time, M I wrong if I am not always forward event if Im balanced, now you answering to my confusions and I were happy about it. Thanks one more time.
I think you’re confusing lean forward to move forward into your turns like runner. You must put forward pressure onto your shins to initiate proper pressure to get the tip of the ski to turn. Many intermediate skiers are sitting back on their skis. Move forward like a runner into your turn and never lean forward over your tip. You clarify yourself when you use shin pressure.
Deb Armstrong explains it perfectly.
ruclips.net/video/jA26u1g2yvg/видео.htmlsi=0BMsrD4ckJq-mkla
Quit being a philosopher about skiing - just ski and enjoy it! It’s a pastime not a world shattering event!!!
Yo, great video Joe!! I loved the opportunities I had to ski with you at DV! I liked the bit on moving the feet forward and back, this is something I've started really noticing in my transitions. I've been thinking about pulling my new outside ski back under my hips so that I have early engagement and forward pressure, but not moving my hips forward. There was a fair amount of time where I would start a turn backseat, and then dramatically move my hips forward to correct, usually leading to my being inside, and having to control speed through the end of the turn. Thanks a ton for this video, it's definitely something that should be better understood.
aaahhh yes but the hips are your center of gravity and the center of momentum, therefore they are indeed in motion , trying to remain in the center position and anticipating the next turn....
You could also say that there is no backward move off the turn.
Totally
Give video. You need to stay in your truck before and AFTER the turn. Stay in the toilet position the whole time.
Too deep in turns if you are not competing, gets too tiresome for all day skiing, must be more effortless.
YES!!! YES!!! and YES!!!! That is a great teaching lesson Ski Dad.... just subscribed to your channel looking forward to see other videos you may have out already or coming up.
As you explain here the almost illusion of your upper buddy sitting back or moving back is just that. I have been told that I should push the upper body forward, that I look like I am sitting back. But what I'm really doing is pushing my feet and legs forward at the initiation of the turn to the point that I feel the ski loaded and grabbing the snow "edge holding" then quickly "recoil" or absorb the energy back as you unload in preparation for the next turn. YES... your upper body, hips to shoulders, will remain in place not much back and forth movement. And YES it doesn't matter the width, length or turning radius of your ski, in my personal opinion the skier drives the sky and not the other way around, your technical abilities and ski style dictates the type of ski that you prefer to use that day given the conditions. here in the East you will be surprise what my daily driver is. I own an Enforcer 88, an Enforcer 104 and a Salomon Blank 112.... Guess...... not the 88's.
I love that you are carving on wide skis. I think they are way easier and more fun to carve on than race skis. We are on the same page
But you’re skiing the intuitive way and skiing is counter-intuitive. Be forward on your skis to slow and control speed; lean back for speed but less control. You should be steering your skis in turns leaning forward down the hill. Try it you’ll see a difference.
Your hips does not move forward but Ted's hips move forward, it's clearly visible. He extends the hips more than you do and when you extend the hips guess where they are going... forward.
I’m curious how you define “extend” the hips. If I say extend my arm it’s clear I’m reaching out in some direction. Hips extending? My point in this video was to remove terminology that is misleading. Adding more misleading terminology to maintain the old way of thinking about it won’t help people ski better
@@skidadTVhip extension is the movement so I think "to extend" is the right verb to use... Ted opens the angle between the lower back and the femour. That's extending the hips.
@@skidadTVsome ways of "going forward" is incorrect, I agree with you.
I totally see what you are saying, but I'll offer this thought. At the top of the turn you extend the new outside leg. We know early edge and leg extension for this type of turn is key. If you are doing this correctly, your binding should get forced behind your hips, not in line or under your hips. This creates the "forward" movement and directs pressure towards the fore body of the ski. So while there's no active upper body or hip movement the forward movement comes from extending the outside ski binding behind the hip at the top of the turn.
Bingo David, the focus is to push to the outside. A “forward move” is a distracting concept to new carvers
Based upon this video, I notice that often during the turn transition period I am backseated. I notice it at that moment when either (you pick) my COM is crossing over the skis or the skis are crossing under me. Even during my time in PSIA it was always move up and forward with hips into the new turn.
My daughter is a U16 racer and they are telling her to pressure more at the beginning of the turn and keep pressure through the apex of the turn but somewhere they are not conveying their message such that she is translating it into her movement yet. I realize this topic may perhaps be more rec skier driven and not trying for thread drift so please excuse me if I am.
Jeff, I made this video for you and your daughter. Watch my video with her then go free skiing.
The worst thing that can happen is you have and awesome time with your daughter laughing about what an idiot I am 😀
Please define the pole plant if it is or isn’t happening here or it’s overall utility moving weight or simply synchro dynamic initiation.
Your speaking to a now 30 year carving snowboarder with 20+ skiing/racing *all mountain shredding pre~parabolic back exploring 4edges…Cheers
I run a pole plant motion that may or may not end in a tap of the pole in the snow.
I worked on pole plants for years when I was younger, I don’t think about it much now.
In general a pole plant is a rhythm and tempo thing. It does not necessarily have an effect on the turn
@@skidadTV Cheers & thanks! Chiseling away at 80s Race style little by little …less the XLRs & Rotomats😆
I feel like you can listen to any number of highly advanced skiers and there's a never ending variance of descriptions of what the sensation is to them and how the body achieves high performance... it all translates really poorly into language, sorry. No fault to any instructors, its just too hard to articulate. Your brain is doing so much you are not aware of at lightning speed on such a complex body. It's probably not possibly to decode whats going on. I think I gotta hope it just clicks, eventually
Dude, stop waiting for someone else to tell it to you perfectly, maybe try it the way they are explaining it
What is "pulling radius"?
Pulling radius is when you continually increase edge angle through the turn.
At the high end I agree- below that though and I think teaching a forward move is useful, because it describes the feeling, if not the actual movement, of a good transition into the top of a turn. remaining balanced over the ski as it tips towards the fall line requires your body to tip with it and to people who are less than expert, that sure feels a lot like "moving forward."
great video.
Yes Dude, "moving forward" is a useful cue for beginner and intermediate skiers, however I try to avoid giving cues that will have to be removed later. You could instead talk about pressing on the front of the boot, getting the same result with a cue that will remain accurate all the way up to expert skiing.
Dudeabides, also a good description. But, staying balanced over the center is important as he says especially in moderate to steep bumps. Rem to only weight the downhill ski and just float the uphill near weightless parallel to the downhill, one keeping the tips open downhill.
@@skidadTV YES YES YES to the practice of avoiding cues that will have to be removed later !! the single greatest practice in the vocation of teaching anything. every shortcut we take as instructors, our students pay the price : key elements of their technique will be based on compensation movements, which are difficult for any human being to unlearn.
@@JB91710 respectfully, you have the biomechanics wrong ... stand upright, get balanced in the middle of the arches of your feet, hands to hips ... use your legs to lower your pelvis any amount WHILE MAINTAINING THAT PERFECT BALANCE POINT ... if your balance didn't shift, it means you flexed equally at ankles knees and hips ... or in other words ... when your ankles flex, your knees move forward in space, into the tongue of your boot
@@shawnphillipsyoga In an expert setting, 'move forward' can still be used accurately, so long as you are being clear that what is moving forward is the center of mass and 'forward' is down the fall line, not toward the tips of your skis. At the apex, CoM and feet are just about even in regard to their progress (and orientation) down the fall line, then feet start to get out ahead as the CoM preps for transition into the next turn where it will 'move forward' down the fall line and once again meet up with the feet in the next apex.
If you have to think about this stuff you’ll never be an incredible skier, like me.
Skiing is about feeling and anticipation, not this dorky hyper-analysis.
Your feet moving back moves your COM forward!
This relationship of moving along the ski as it accelerates under you is a fundamental mechanic of skiing. In this lesson, you are able to show very large very mid foot balanced turns on moderate slopes, but as soon as things become quicker and more intense, this connection between the front of the foot becomes more imperative. I like your stuff!
What I don’t understand is if we have to have a “follow down” feeling to increase the angle ?
Please elaborate on “follow down” I’m not sure I get it
''There is no forward move into the turn.'' Maybe for you, but not for Mikaela Shiffrin (and, humbly, for me as well).
If you are a bit curious, just take a look at the video ''Forward double pole plant drill'', her most precious drill. If you think ''forward'' is about poles (and therefore hands), listen carrefully her comments about that drill.
ruclips.net/video/RniHI8v-uT8/видео.html
You miss interpret my statement. There is no forward “move”
Of course you need to be in a forward position, shins on the boots spine angle matching… The double pole plant ensures you are in the forward position.
My statement is that there is no “forward move” from the hips into the turn. In this video Ted Ligety’s hips remain static at initiation.
@@skidadTV I looked at your video again. I should have listened more carrefully to the introduction cause I should have understood that your title ''There is no forward move into the turn.'' is not an absolute (short turns, for instance).
Maybe the title should have been ''There is not always a forward move into the turn'' or ''There is no forward move into certain turns''. Next time I'll listen more carrefully instead of taking a quick forward move into the video !
Regards :))
Most intermediate skiers are probably not centered enough (forwad) to have a 'leaning forward too much for turn' problem.😀
What I see is you ski like Harald Harb’s PMTS method, plenty of flexing and extending your knees with great tipping of the feet. BTW Great video
Very good video. I am getting back into skiing after 42 years and am having to relearn how to ski using today's ski's and style as compared to the mid to late 20th century. It's very different, and challenging to unlearn what I know. even after so many years.
I think you are pushing the snow instead of turning. not hating.. pretty good skiing but you could use more separation.!!! keep on improving~!
While I agree with what you are saying, only probably less than 1% of skiers can or want to make turns like that at that speed. The reality is that all you have to do is step from ski to ski. It's as simple as that. When you step to the up hill, you release the edge of your down hill ski and you are into the next turn. Keeping your hips and upper body as quiet as possible is key regardless of how fast you are skiing.
This is what I think is true, when it comes to the turns of the torso (hips).
Maximum separation means that you do not move your torso (including your hips) to the sides of the slope, your whole torso faces the fall-line continously and you let your legs turn aound under your torso on their edges. But this is only partly possible, because the torso must turn at least a little also, at the shortest carving skiturns.
The wider turns you want to make, the more your hips must turn backwards at the end of the transition and forwards at the start of the turn after the edgings.
I don´t get, why do you think it is so important, not to turn your torso? Smaller turns of your hips are very useful and they do not make the carving turns harder to execute.
Twisting of the torso is definitely happening, that is not the focus of this video. I am focusing on the forward and backwards movement of the hips and torso. This back and forth movement is a byproduct of balancing over the feet and skis, not an active "skiing move"
@@JB91710 Thanks.
I think there are a lot of things one feel that really do not show. Hips forward is inmo one such thing. When I drive my outside knee really hard into the turn ... my hip is also driven into the turn / forward.
I noticed a difference between you and ted : ted is entering the turn with more power because his COM was more forward when skis were flat. You seem to push more your skis laterally entering the turn since you are a little bit late there... That is what I see.
Second point: you keep your inclination more longer than Ted (timing).
I would have like to see a demo of what moving forward into the turn would look like would be a nice visual and see how that would effect how the skis respond through out the turn.
Don't forget to observe the outside arm and hand on both these guys pulling their weight/hips around and thru the the outside of the turn to be properly set up for the next turn. Critical.
This is core form skiing, the skis travelling outside and across the path taken by the upper body.
I'm seeing a bit of skidding at the beginning of the turn
You sure are molly. That’s how the turns stay rad to the bottom of the hill. If I go pure roll I will continually generate speed and eventually be out of control.
It may make a huge difference to understand the complexity of a carved ski turn for hockey skaters... there seems to me anyway that skating has some very similar movements.
This is similar to how Candide turns. I believe he rotates his shoulders more into the turn like a surfer doing a bottom turn.
Amazing! I've been overthinking carving. Way way overthinking it.
Snowboarder here, all this did was make me stoked for some solid, springtime cruisn'!!!
It is like jf beauleau skiing inside a fish bowl ! If u don’t know look him up
It’s all relative based on the cues one chooses to use. You could also argue that you are moving your hips forward in each transition back over your feet, instead of your feet being pulled back underneath your body. For the quicker shorter radius turns it is sometimes easier to think about it as just pulling your feet back instead of moving your whole body over
The thing is though. I am not thinking about moving my hips. I am trying to keep them centered and balanced. I don’t need to “think” about something I’m not actually doing because I am “doing” the thing that I want to do.
Oscar: cross over vs cross under? Dad… please comment.
I’m trying to keep my torso still. I am literally jumping from one foot to a mostly extended new foot. I would say the BOS crosses under the COM
Thanks for the video. Do you have a demonstration of the forward move you speak of? And, “forward” is relative to what?
The best example would be watching the top flat of the Levi WC Slalom. Unfortunately I don't have any of my own footage at this time.
@@skidadTVI watched highlights of second day’s Run 1. The forward move I see looks to me to be part of a propulsion effort, to build speed at the start. The second skier seems to more of it than the first skier. I guess you’re saying that for the longer at-speed turns in your video, some folks would want to do the same? Anyway, I’ll wait for the video on this subject that you spoke of doing
@@karlo407 you saw it. The forward hip move is to generate speed. When you are on a steep run you are not trying to accelerate each turn, the speed would become unmanageable at some point. On a steep run simply maintaining speed is the key. So, no forward move.
I don’t get it, I linked carved turns the whole way down. I felt great, had G forces working against me. And people seek me out in the lift line to compliment my turns.
I think I’ve got “it”, so why won’t you take the honest advice of a guy with “it”
@@skidadTVIf you search, you’ll find he has a lot to say about other’s coaching. Don’t get sucked in.
"PromoSM"
omg! That's just beautiful. Poetry in snowmotion. Thanks!
That’s soft snow let’s see this done on eastern hardpack aka ice
Great video! Thanks 😊
Totally agree.
That's something I got to know when I skied moguls. Human CANNOT move the center of gravity forward on snow, it slippery. Human can only use hamstring to pull the foot back. It only matters where the foot are, and everything from hip to head is aligned and stacked naturally.
I'm not sure if this observation/feeling is correct?
That sounds right to me
Good tip for the avg recreational skier for a quick fix…..not for ski racers. Yes you need to have hips square in order for knees to work parallel together, and the simpler it’s done the easier it is to allow the skis to do the work for you, they have a radius for a reason……..but please explain one thing : do you know what a rise line is? If so, then how do you build pressure past the rise line without moving your hips forward…and wait for it……only on the flats, with no momentum? I’ll wait for an answer.
With that attitude, you will be waiting a while
The concept of no for and aft makes sense for shaped skis. As someone who took up skiing on straight skis I need this as a reminder because we were encouraged to adopt a lot of up and down ( weighting and unweighting)which leads to for and aft movement. Shaped skis if they are skied from the feet and ankles do real well with a quieter torso.The movement I guess is kinda for and aft but in such a subtle way that the torso and upper body doesn't get involved as much. When the torso starts going to much for and aft I think you find yourself getting off the place where you can control the skis which is directly under your body when it is square to your skis.
Bingo peter! Well said
Looks easy on the video, but finding the right balance from turn to turn is for me the hardest of all things to do in skiing.
Hopefully keeping that balance is easier now that you are not trying to do a false move each turn
Very interesting. What do you mean by phrase "pulling radius"?
Pulling radius is when you continue to increase the edge angle through the middle of the turn
Do you think I could accomplish this type of carving on a blizzard rustler 10? Are they too soft unlike the older peacemakers? Turning radius to short 16m? Or no excuses !!
I haven’t skied the new rustler 10 but it looks sick
@coloradogooner Yes you can. I believe it is easier to make these carves on wider skis. The bigger platform gives you a lot to balance over
Looks a lot like park and ride
Not bad, not bad at all. We'll talk.
nice style :)
Way too many people, ski instructors included, tell their students to “move forward“ to start the turn. I completely disagree with that take. If you move forward to start the turn, it is very unlikely that the tail will follow the exact track that the front of the ski started causing skidding. Maybe the Carv Insert can actually show the minuscule amount of time that someone is using the ball of the foot as a reference. I say “don’t move forward, stay, balanced, if anything, there should be more pressure, especially at the end of a turn on the heel. I have nine years experience as a ski instructor at Mammoth Mountain and Mount Rose.
You must be on the front of the ski for it to engage and make the start of the turn. Look where the head is as Ligerty goes up and down his head moves forwards so putting weight on the front of the ski as he starts the turn. As he stands up to start the transition his head moves backwards disengaging the front of the ski slightly. Its a subtle movement and its hard to spot as they are skiing so smooth but the figure of 8 movement and weight transfer is there.
What
Still doesn't look smooth and effortless enough. Thanks.
That is True @fam4449 I am putting maximum effort into these turns. I rely greatly on my willingness to power the ski to make these turns. Its what makes it so fun!
Where are the bumps?
Do you ski in your shirt for this channel or is that your preferred attire for skiing?
Preferred attire for spring skiing
Thank you for making this video. It's frustrating that so many instructors and coaches cling to this obsolete idea of "moving up and forward" in the turn for performance skiing. Moving "up and forward" is a balance-disrupting movement. There is no muscle or muscle group in the human body that "moves the hips forward" in a ski stance. By default, you must use a slow, crude, inefficient combination of muscle contractions to force the hips UP then forward, rather than the more effective strategy of pulling the feet back underneath through ankle dorsiflexion and hamstring contraction. Fore/Aft Balance happens below the knee, not in the hips.
Totally agree @robertlincoln2241 my hope is that more people can start carving harder once they give up on ideas that only serve to interrupt the turn
Since when it’s easy for bringers up to expert skiers to do flex to release ? It’s hard very hard that’s why racers can do that pretty well. Yes up and forward is challenging, not natural and disruptive for balance . But you and others that do not agree , would you share your ideas how instructors and coaches should train all those intermediate , advanced , expert skiers ? Any ideas . Flex to start the turn is not easy at all. As it’s not natural to extend up and forward for turn . And if you tell me that it is easy , ok then we start with the jokes then
I got good at skiing then started teaching. Many teachers got good while they were teaching. They cling to the ideas that they had to struggle through to get good not realizing that those concepts slowed their progress
I absolutely agree. All you need is lateral movement.
Good video thank you for making and posting it. Is there anything to try to save the condition of are thumbs from wearing out on our gloves when carving? I have at least a half a dozen pair of gloves the thumbs are worn down from touching the ground when carving. I end up cutting them with hot glue to extend life of the gloves
I bought the armored race mittens Hestra Grippen GS
@@skidadTV please post a link to make sure I consider the same ones
Yeah the forward I’d the lead change.
Bearing in mind the fore-aft weight change under stable hips, are you actively pulling the feet back (or riding over them) at the start of the turn?
Great question!
No, I am not “actively” pulling my feet back. At the start of the turn I am focused on getting pressure to my outside ski and moving back across the hill
@@skidadTV - Thanks for the further insight. As you & other experts mention fore-aft pressuring of the ski thru the turn, I often wonder how this is achieved in practical terms, without unbalancing moves of the upper body. Is it just the ski decelerating (relative to the upper body) as you begin to arc it, then accelerating as it is flattened at the end of the turn?
It’s all balance and feel. The simplest way to think about it would probably be pressure on the front of the boot. Move forward is more pressure aft is less
Nice skiing here! However the tiltle of your video: "There is no forward move into the turn" is a little misleading since at the end of the turn you and ted are normally at the back seat and if "There is no forward move into the turn" you should stay in the back seat all along the turns:)
How about
There is no forward “move” into the turn
Of course the COM moves with relation to the feet. However the hips stay static while that relationship changes. Thus, there is no “move”
@@skidadTV I got your point of view. However Hips and COM are quite the same right? So you are just saying 1/ COM moves and 2/Hips are static... you see?
So the question remaining is how your COM "moves" wrt the feet ! When and how?
Let's say you try to keep centered when your skis are flat. From that point up to the begining of the turn in the outside ski, your COM just moves forward ballisticaly because your are in the "relax" phase. No muscle just some abs and some anticipation, not staying in the back seat.
My coach used to say: " (external) quadricep vertical" when entering the turn...
Hips are a joint, more specifically the pelvis is a joint. Center of mass is a point, a point that does not move, that cannot flex or extend.
Just because the COM moves forward relative to the feet does not mean that the hips/pelvis made a move
@@skidadTV as an aproximation, the COM is in the middle of your hips :) And when you are doing some hip extension your hips (and COM) are moving forward.
Why do you lift the inside leg? May i suggest you don't? Instead, just slide that foot forward. That will also shift your weight forward and distribute your weight evenly accross both skis, save your thighs. Letting one ski go deeper into the surface of the snow will also slow you down.
I’ve tried the “slide inside leg forward” thing and it reduces my athleticism on my skis and does not create an improvement in performance. As I state in the video I am not trying to move my weight for/aft. At these speeds and intensity. I’m trying to stay balanced so I can make these turns top to bottom on any terrain
Even weight on each ski at the part of the turn I believe you're suggesting would put a very uncomfortable amount of my balance on the pinky toe side of my inside foot, which is much less stable than the big toe side of my outside foot.
@@Dudeabides422 Don't worry. It won't, not unless you have a foot injury or 'problem' feet. Additionally, lifting your inside foot in soft powder will not help you. It's a bad habit of bad ski teaching that we've had for yeeeeeeears. But to be honest, if the smile is from ear to ear, it's the main thing.
@@perro0076 in soft powder sure, that’s a whole different can on worms. Modern ski instruction definitely has issues but shortening the inside leg isn’t one of them.
@Dudeabides422 he-he, no, not shortening. After you commit to taking a turn, slide the now new inside foot forward, but it only needs to go as far as the centre of it to be level with the toe of the new outside foot. It's a very subtle movement. You still have to do all the other good things as pointing your thigh bones and face to where you want to be going. Practice it by first standing in one flat place and slide your feet back and forth, as if you were pretending you're about to take a forward step, but not actually taking it and changing your mind half way in the motion. You're looking to feel how your body weight is evenly on both feet. You can always exaggerate the move by doing a full lunge just to practice, but it's the feel of weight distribution you're after.
The sign said Slow brah
It was closing day…
Love it! I ski Tahoe where are you skiing those blizzards? I like the visual idea of pushing the uphill ski forward to get the carve right as you say get the knees parallel
This video is from Solitude. But my main mountain is Deer Valley.
😂
Great demo.. for me in repetitive exercises like skiing, the key is to be efficient. That means only actively moving what u need. Gravity is ur friend here, as soon as the outside leg takes the pressure off, the rest of the body will want to move downhill. All we have to do is let it do that. It can be almost totally passive and feel like weightlessness for a short time. The only real work is in reapplying the pressure to the new outside ski, and that feels like a natural defensive movement to stop falling down the hill. Ted n you beautifully show retraction of the outside leg which starts the turn. After that physics takes over. then its a matter of choosing the right moment to reapply pressure on the new downhill ski to complete the turn. Any movement of the hips or the legs fore-aft is mostly passive. That way one can ski all day without fatigue. If its tiring its probably wrong.
I'm a lousy skier who overthinks everything. Here's my long, overthinking way of agreeing with Ski Dad.
My take is that what you want is your torso+pelvis moving down the hill at a constant rate. Meanwhile, your skis are back and forth under you. Obviously, you and your skis have to move down the hill with the same *average* rate (since the skis can't get very far away from your torso). Also, obviously, when your skis are moving across the slope, the downward component of their motion is a lot less than it is when they're pointing straight down the slope. That means your torso's up-down-hill-position is catching up with and passing your skis when they're moving across the slope, i.e., during the turn transition. So, like Ski Dad says, you do not need to actively move your torso down the hill during the transition. You simply have to *not stop* your torso from passing your skis, which it will do on its own out of inertia if you just let it. (This is hard for beginners to do, because every instinct is, holy crap, I'm getting ahead of my skis, I'm going to be mashing my face into the snow in a second if I don't push my torso uphill against the outside ski towards the end of the turn). It's very hard for the beginner to trust his skis to start the new turn, point themselves downhill, and then catch up with his torso. So we tell beginners to actively move downhill in the transition, when all we're really trying to get them to do is to not slow down their torso, and just let their torso's momentum carry their torso downhill past their skis.
This was a long way of agreeing with everything Ski Dad says in this video, but viewed from an over-thinking point of view of how the relative downward velocity between skis and torso must change if the torso-down-hill-velocity is constant and the ski-down-hill-velocity is not (skis going more downhill in the middle of the turn, and more across the hill during turn transition).
Curious if people agree with this take. (Unfortunately for me, I'm better at vector algebra and free-body diagrams than I am at actually making it down the hill!)
@@JB91710 thanks JB. Are there any ski courses you would recommend? I have both Lito Tejada-flores' Breakthrough on Skis, and also Harald Harb and Diana Rogers' videos. I like them both though they are actually quite different (Lito focuses on weight transfer, Harb on rolling the ankles). I'm planning to take a lot more lessons this season too.
Found your videos yesterday. I started skiing last season and skied 20 days. Still pretty beginner because I am learning myself, I have been trying to visualize a lot and watch videos before the hitting slopes. I agree that there's no forward movement, because if I lean too forward then I lose my center of mass and can't pressure/balance on my downhill ski and pressure starts to build on inside ski which will lead to a wedge or crash. Maybe a good exercise on dryland is to get your ski boots and try to balance on one foot and start moving your torso/hips. It made me understand that it's not actually forward but instead balance on my outside leg. Obviously it doesn't mean to forfeit inside leg, bending knee is important on inside ski because inside ski is a little forward than the outside, which naturally creates the shin contact. Please correct if this is not the right sensation though, your content is rad.
Sounds right
Greatest name ever. ligety.
IT IS ALWAYS NECESARY TO Move forward. We can talk about it...but what you saying is not accurate. I can see from how you move your arms that in the initiation of your turn something weird is going on in your arms, Perhaps that is why you are saying is not moving forward. I IS necessary to move forward or you will be in the backseat. I've been a coach and a trainer for 30 years-