Having browsed the comments, I'm going to go ahead and guess that about 80% of the people either didn't watch the video or paid absolutely no attention and walked away completely missing the point.
What about Timon and Pumba raising Simba? There is an example of two men raising a child together and it's shown in a very positive way. They both show no interest in females.
Growing up with these movies I never read any of these characters as gay. They were just either jerks or richy-rich jerks. Now, I don't know if my parents ever picked up on the references or not, but I certainly didn't, and I never thought being gay was a bad thing either, just different.
Sebastien Lee ABNORMAL adj. Not typical, usual, or regular; not normal; deviant. Not conformed or conforming to rule; deviating from a type or standard; contrary to system or law; irregular; unnatural.
I've really gotten into Steven Universe in the past month or so. It has multiple LGBT+ characters, diverse body types, people of color, and just different types of people shown in a positive light. It also shows good relationships and examples of not so good ones. I love that it has all this representation and is specifically for kids. I'd love to know what others think of it?
Well Steven universe may seem to have lgbt elements, it may not be lgbt besides, ruby and sapphire are both non-binary (obviously because they are gems) yet possessing female pronouns, they Could represent it but not be it
Not only the villains. If you watch Hermès throughout Hercules, he is also clearly implied to be a homosexual inspired by Elton John especially. He talks about flower arrangements, calls Zeus “babe”, and even wears a shorter toga than the other gods, while having a higher pitched voice and no significant other. Perhaps he can’t find one of the many homosexual gods we find throughout Greek mythology because they drew him to be physically weak & unfit. *eyeroll* I wonder if this is where “light in the loafers” originates. Lol
To be fair, Hermes was bi in the mythology, lol. As a matter of fact, so was Heracles. It's funny because Hades was like, one of the only gods who I could say with absolute certainty was straight, and they queercoded him.
Great video, Rowan! This is something that, as a straight person, I haven't thought about so I was happy to learn! I think the main issue is exactly what you said - it isn't necessarily that villains might be gay, it's that there are no positive gay heroes to balance it out!
"it isn't necessarily that villains might be gay, it's that there are no positive gay heroes to balance it out!" Wrong. Hollywood is rather relentless in promoting stereotypes and gender role rigidity. Look at the Bee Movie. It's a poster child for that agenda. Worker bees in reality are all female. What are they in the film? "Pollen Jocks." Look at how the males behave toward each other. Look at how they behave toward females. Look at everything in that film. It's just one of so many. The rigidity has only increased with time. It's all indoctrination into gender stereotypes. Men can't even be relatively pretty anymore or they'll invoke the dreaded gayness. They have to be presented, instead, as comically uber-masculine, like the human man and the pollen jocks in the Bee Movie, or simply unattractive like the other males in that film. Their behavior also can't be suave and beautiful in any way. Again... it must conform to very specific rules. Comic. Macho. Aggressive. Idiotic. Loud. Calculating. Awestruck at the sight of women. Compare original Tron with the sequel. The sexuality, specifically the rigidity of the gender roles, is more force-fed than it was even in the original. In the original you got a good amount of male eye candy, especially ass. In the sequel they made sure to give the young guy non-revealing dress and did lots of other things to make things less potentially gay. This kind of adjustment is all over Hollywood. People there are very sensitive to anything that could be seen as not upholding the stringent contemporary heterosexual norm, unless the film is specifically marketed toward a gay or older female audience - or is made with older producers and actors (e.g. the terrible campy Stepford Wives remake which still, quite notably, greatly elided the sexuality of the gay couple). A lot of these people grew up surrounded by "that's so gay" commentary in school. They grew up with that intense disclaiming of all things gay environment, a different environment from the passive "gays don't exist at all" mentality of before that. With the rise of gay identify visibility has come the backlash. However, using gay stereotypes for villains is much older. Villains are whatever the society can think of in terms of character traits and behaviors that are considered unwanted.
Ariel Bissett We can't just assume that being flamboyant equals gay. The very reason you never noticed that queer coding thing is because it isn't true
This isn't a Disney villan but would you say this is the case with King George from Hamilton? His song is the only one in the show that is really a typical musical theatre style, simple chord progressions, bouncy feel and the lyrics "da da da da da" ect. That stereotypical musical theatre sound is often seen as or described as camp or gay, the phrase gay guy at the theatre is a very common trope.
Hmm I didn't notice that.I say it as representing him sticking to the status quo and him being the antithesis of the mains that sing styles created by African-Americans.
I definitely see queer coding in KG tbh, but think it was more an unconscious reference primarily aimed at the "foppish upper class brat" trope instead?
Watch Yuri on ice, for the first few episodes I thought the show was queerbaiting its two main male protagonists but in the most recent episode it turned out to be actual representation (you can't watch this show without seeing they're in love, basically). And this is not yaoi anime. So even if you don't usually watch anime, I think you should watch this show. It's just so pure and no one ever questions why the characters fall in love with each other and the stereotype of ice skaters being feminine is treated so well because the characters are all very interesting and complex. The relationship is healthy. There is diversity in all of the characters (a bunch of Japanese characters, a Thai, a Chinese guy, a few Russian ones, a Swiss one and the skater from the USA is actually Latino). And the show overall is just so positive and pure, it's exactly what I needed after everything that went down in 2016. The main message of the show (and the overall theme I guess) is to believe in yourself. And I find that so empowering, it really inspires me. Please watch Yuri!!! on ICE! :)
well, Yoi made 2016 kinda better c: After watching this show I felt kinda sad, it was all so positive and such, but I know as for now such positivity is just not possible, at least not yet : /
Yeah, Dragon Age has kind of knocked it out of the park for LGB characters in video games (admittedly, it's a small park). Through the whole series, there's been twice as many LGB romance options as straight ones and it's almost completely a non issue. I say LGB. They tried with Krem. I mean, they tried. He's fine. They asked some trans people and all. Got some people angry-crying on the forums because they weren't allowed to be mean to a trans person in their game, during a conversation lasting all of 30 seconds. (Now if they can get Maevaris Tilani as a companion in the next game, we'll be cooking.)
I think movies such as Hunchback, Mulan, and Tarzan would be interesting subjects to discuss as a sort of "exception" to this particular phenomenon, as in all three cases the villains are quite masculine in their own regard
In Mulan, it think it's because the villain more-or-less took a back seat for the film. The movie was mostly centered on her, and he wasn't meant to be developed as a character. It works really well with that type of story.
This was definitely interesting, but for me, these stereotypes aren't exactly associated with villains in general. They seem to be specifically used for villains which come from a royal background or at least some position of power. I imagine this is because royalty is typically associated with using proper etiquette and being physically weak, which are usually considered to be feminine traits. It also seems to me that giving characters more flamboyant personalities is a cheap way to make audiences dislike them more quickly by portraying them as obnoxious before they even get the chance to do anything evil. I know this is a pretty old video by now but if anyone's reading this I'd like to hear your thoughts.
this is pretty much what I thought...the sheltered, femininity of the characters represented wealth and aversion to work/hard labor, seen as masculine traits...these guys all seem more like incels, with a hatred or superiority complex to women, in contrast to the main character(eg. Scar hitting Sarabi I think...Jafar belittling Jasmine)...Especially when Gaston has these same vain, flamboyant qualities but is a womanizer narcissist. I definitely get what the video is saying and I think it's more that many of the traits seen in the wealthy are traits seen in gay stereotypes.
I posted something just now on a similar vein: Most of her examples aren't queercoding at all - they are reasonably historically acceptable portrayals of the rich, the pompous, the fops of two centuries ago, etc. It's only "queercoding" nowadays because the younger generation has only experienced her examples in the gay community and haven't looked back in history enough.
@@ABodyInProgress Yeah, a lot of these villain portrayals are more about demonizing the rich than demonizing the gay community. When you ask most people to imagine an "evil rich person" now, they'd probably picture someone closer to Mr. Burns from The Simpsons than someone who adheres to the foppish archetype.
Just came from a Lindsay Ellis video (Loose Canon: Aphrodite) where she talked about Hades briefly being in love with Aphrodite in the TV show, thus making him the only Disney villain with any sort of romantic attachment. I realized I had totally failed to notice the villains' lack of love interests! (At least consensual-Frollo, Jafar, and Scar all make moves on unwilling women.) It's another layer of making the hero the opposite of the villain-the hypermasculine male hero / hyperfeminine female hero gets the romantic rewards, the queercoded villain doesn't. By itself it would look like more of a 'people who do bad stuff get bad karma' thing, but when you layer in the queercoding it doesn't send a good message. Either they're super aggressive romantically (and the love isn't requited), or their romantic side isn't even hinted at.
There's a great cartoon called Wander over Yonder that aired on Disney XD (unfortunately cancelled before production could start on its third season). Wander (the main character) was quite flamboyant and OTT, flirted with the main male villain on several occasions (who happened to be quite masculine yet was shown to be immature and very insecure at the same time, which was done really well), and he cross-dressed a lot (very rarely was this actually played for laughs, and was more just an aspect of his character (I think?), which I really liked). One of the most popular headcanons in the fandom is that he's actually genderfluid, which is an idea I love. He was the ultimate hero of the show and promoted compassion and selflessness, so I think he's a good example of a character that's the opposite of the disney villains described in this video. Wander over Yonder is actually brilliant (it seems a little childish at first but its so easy to get into) and I would totally recommend to anyone who likes cartoons!! Bonus: female arch-villain with an awesome musical number!!!!
I know this comment is a year ago, but I love it whenever Wander Over Yonder is being talked about. Like seriously, it's rarely mentioned wherever. It deserves more recognition :^(
snitterdog Never heard about it; your description is brilliant; thanks for the recommendation; you're doing the 'Lord's' work, my child. Female villain! Take all my money.
I think the Doctor (Doctor Who) is the only character I can think of who is truly non-binary. Even before the female incarnation the Doctor always rejected masculinity and the usual macho tropes of being a hero. Just found your channel. Great videos
A reason for queercoded villains might be that straight up aggressive relentless evil villains could be way too intimidating, scary and over the top for younger children. They probably act this way to increase their likability instead of the other way around. I imagine it's an easy shorthand to communicate that they still have weakness.
I think it's more detrimental to society that you see this as a sign of weakness. Let's take Joker. Pretty elaborate, colorful, not very physically active in MOST fights, I'd even say flamboyant at times...shooting Mrs. Gordon in the face surrounded by babies is by your reasoning, not scary and over-the-top.
Dackson Flux hardly The jokers personaility just the voice actor Mark hamill brings a flamboyant tone to the voice The joker is sadistic cruel and evil
I think for now as far as cartoons goes Steven Universe explores relationships best everyone else is forced to hint at it like in Legend of Korra or Adventure Time (love your channel by the way, very educational)
I see it from a different angle. In the US film industry they often cast a British male actor in the role of the villain. And it has become some what of a type cast (because it makes them money?) The character of the British male they employ is often of 'posh', middle aged guy, and in real life they tend to have much more effeminate gestures, vocal quality and traits, compared to the average US male or actually male from other nations. An example is Alan Rickman (& his character in the film Die hard.) And I think perhaps Disney has imported this idea into their animations.
when i was a child playing super metroid. Samas was the first hero i encountered that i thought was a man and when i realized she was a woman and every bit as badass as any male sci fi hero i had encountered it changed my perspective on female protagonists in games and movies.
I remember seeing something a while back that said like "why did they expect us not to be gay when they made the villians so hot" which I mean, kinda makes sense now if those villians were queercoded lol
I am a gay male and I believe that timone and puma are depicted as a gay couple,this theory has been thrown around a lot but I believe it's true and they are portrayed as the heroes of the story.Bassically in a sense my theory is that simba ran away to find salvation and sanctuary,and more importantly people who love and care about him and he found that love and care from timone and pumba they helped simba find Out who he reallly is whilst he grew up they nurtured and raised him as there own son more or less if you really think about it
joshua garbett I really couldn't have put it better myself. Pumbaa and Timon, in my opinion, are representing this because they are two parents of the same gender. In the upcoming live-action reboot of the Lion King, it is said that Simba will come out as gay. Hopefully this is true, because it will most likely confirm the "Pumbaa and Timon are gay" theory.
This could explain why I was obsessed with Disney villains as a child.....Like, Scar was my main imaginary friend and I had a collection of Disney villain action figures. Everything makes sense XD
So glad you mentioned Bittle! That comic is doing wonders ^_^ Great points. Thanks for taking a stand and helping bring these issues to light for the public.
I absolutely love the She ra and the princesses of power 2018 remake because almost all of it’s main cast canonically queer (including the antagonist and protagonist) and the rest of the characters don’t even bat an eye.
As weird as it is for me to think about, Zira isn't Scar's mate. She's the same age as Simba (despite appearing kind of older). She just must've had some admiration for Scar while he was king. Scar was not the father of any of her children, especially Kovu, who was adopted. He just selected Kovu to be next in line for the throne.
It's Canon that kovu is not scars child and scar was never with zira that way . All tho Zira is much like Harley Quinn and loves scar even if he was never with her of had no interest in her she is convinced that scar loves her . The never hooked up.
He's not a cartoon character, but what about Nico di Angelo from PJO? He's a pretty well-rounded character, doesnt play into queer steryotypes, and is a hero.
mama odie from Princess and the Frog helped the protagonists, was clearly a good person, and was also queer coded. she gave her decidedly female pet snake a few slobbery kisses on the mouth (weird lmao). during her song there were a ton of flamingos and rainbow lights/bottles. the lyrics of said song had "we dont care, no we dont care// dont matter what you come from// dont even matter what you are//". she looks pretty happy, even if shes a recluse. although i think dr. facilier, the villain from the same movie probably had some degree of coding too. :( but still.
i also hear a lot about gaston from 'beauty and the beast'...kinda surprised you didn't mention him, but you might keep an eye on him if you haven't seen it in a while.. and then there's the butch brother in 'paranorman' (can't remember his name).. he's your typical dumb jock, so i'm not sure how "positive" it is, but i guess it flips (some) ppl's expectations, so ya, that happened..
I'm writing my dissertation on this, when I pitched the idea I asked "Which Disney villains are gay?" and one guy replied "All of them!" and he's right. Personally, after researching this for a year, I don't think it was an accident. Disney was homophobic, he called Art Babbit a f*ggot for playing the piano (a trait Hook has by the way...) but even in my essay I can't outright accuse him, though I'm doing my best hehe
@@dreamlandbuds7710 I'm not assuming, I'm basing it on my research of Disney, the era of Hollywood and the general ideas of gay people at the times the films were made. They're all gay, all of them, and I could write a book with a chapter on each! I'm doing my best to accuse Disney because ultimately they're the ones responsible for this! Anyway I got a first for that dissertation ;)
This is so true. But it kind of backfired on them cuz people think of these characters as the most iconic and memorable presentation. But yeah it for sure is trying to push the idea that any character that isn’t insanely straight is evil or immoral.
I'm attempting to make a comic based around a character I have been developing for a year or so now.. appearance and behavior is based off myself, (backstory, traits, ect are different) with myself being gay. Though I don't ever really show queer stereotypes. It's just not me, so I'm kind of hoping I can do a good job with this, without also making it feel too forced upon.
Has someone mentioned the Mean Girls musical? Damian is a secondary character, but a very important one, and he's at least heavily queercoded (I can't remember if he's ever openly addresses as homosexual). He's also pretty damn awesome. Less noticeably, I think Janis Sarkisian (played by the wonderful Barrett Wilbert Weed, sorry, fangirl moment) has some thin queercoding going on, but I might be wrong. Janis has some glorious moments in the show, but Damian too is definitely a positive figure, a complex and fully realized character, and a pleasure to watch. Anyways, love what you're doing. I didn't know about queercoding until now. Subscribed. Also, because of the lack of queercoded good guys all around, I decided one of the main protagonists in a fanfic I'm writing will be queercoded, hopefully in a tasteful way. Spoiler: he wins in the end ^___^
Another feminine trait in similar Disney villains is intelligence. Meanwhile we have Hercules taking the advice, "Use your head!" quite literally. Who, by the way, is our masculine counterpart to supposedly feminine, Hades.
Disney villains tend to be melodramatic, which should not mean melodramatic is equal to queer coding. This would be easier to understand though, if they did include characters as you mentioned, those that were not heterosexual or did not follow gender stereotypes. I think, King Candy was intended to be gay, but the only real references to it are making jokes at his expense. I always wished that they would make a before "The Little Mermaid" film that would discuss why Ursula was exiled and not allowed to be queen. Maybe it would give more of a chance to be show a character who is a lesbian, transgender, or at least does not follow gender stereotypes and shows the King as the good but judgmental and sometimes violent person he is.
Theres a whole book abou Ursula's backstory and her tense relationship with her brother (Triton). I dont wanna spoil anything, but u will prolly not like Ariel's father after that.
@ULGROTHA Triton forced ursula to use a "normal" appearence when she lived in the Palace (the same Vanessa identity). He was repulsed by her looks and considering the amount of people requesting Ursula's Magic to look prettier, or skinnier, or hotter to find romance, you can say Triton is an elitist King. Thats just the surface tho. Hes cruel to her when they were kids too. Its a good read If you like Disney characters, and theres one book for the Evil Queen in snow white too.
@@poisonarrow658 Pardon if someone already said this, because YT is showing me all the replies out of order. It's confusing. What is the name of the book? I would love to read it.
@@DogFlamingoXIII Search for : "Poor unfortunate soul: A tale of the Sea witch". Its one of many books based on the Disney villains and they are all connected. I totally recomend them all if you want a full experience.
I really did not get this with any 'feminine' villains. I always associated their style with simply being British and it makes sense considering the James Bond villains have inspired many othe villains.
RUth Spiteri But why are only the villains effeminate? If it was about being British then all of them should act 'gay' or 'prissy', not just the bad guys.
You might see if you can reach out geeky feminist indie band The Doubleclicks. They've written songs about misogyny in geek culture, and they're currently doing a series called You Should Write a Song about That, the first episode of which is about Anandibai Joshi, the first Indian woman to get a degree in western medicine.
Rowan Ellis, Its Cartoon Network, not Disney, but you should checkout Steven Universe if you haven't already. Its a kids cartoon with a lot of positive portrayals of characters that don't exactly fit our gender stereotypes. There also is a gay romance in the series later on, and near the end of the series it depicts what is probably the first gay marriage in a children's cartoon.
I think the intention is just to make them look like the opposite of heroic. They are also ugly. Their mannerisms come from queer people because those are perceived and thought to be perceived as ugly and unattractive. It's like Brad Pitt with a Goofy accent. It's silly and not going to happen in a drama. Peter Lorre or Vincent Price also had that delicate quality in their villains, but they were straight. And to be honest, I don't think it can be fixed.
One of the really sad things I've noticed watching your videos is that I'm aware of or have seen basically every single example you mention (not in just this video). It could be that we watch all of the same shows (which seems unlikely), or that the number of queer characters in media is so small we all have to refer to the same ones. As an example, I'd love for you to do a video on queer characters in YA novels like "The song of Achilles" and Nico de Angelo from the Rick Riordan series - fully expecting that you've heard and possibly read both of those.
I would like to point out that coding--be it racial, queer, etc--is really a neutral concept, and is not restricted to villains and to negative stereotypes. It should also be noted that half of coding is in the mind of the audience and how any given person perceives and interprets any given traits, and what kind of associations they make with those traits, and the context in which those traits exist.
Is Donita in Wild Kratts a queerbaited character? She is very over-the-top, and frankly very fun to play or impersonate, which I have done with my nieces in one of the make-believe games we play (when I am playing the evil and impossible to satisfy restaurant customer). But now I am worried that I am participating in perpetuating queerbaiting. EDIT: I also play this character with a little Cruella Devil.
I had to think about this one for a while. I think looking at it as an adult, there's definitely a presence of stereotypically queer traits in some of these villains, and I know that Disney has had issues with racial and sexist stereotyping also so it wouldn't surprise me if someone at the studio was like "hey, let's sneak this in here, the kids won't get it but the parents and grandparents will" or something. But as a kid I didn't see any reason to think these villains were queer - I didn't really think about characters' love lives at all unless the love was an active part of the story and I was forced to (i.e. Simba and Nala, Aladdin and Jasmine, etc). So I think I grew up thinking that evil was being portrayed by Disney as associated with self-centered behavior, narcissism, greed, material wealth, etc. rather than queerness. I'd just assumed as a kid that the flamboyant dancing and singing was a vanity thing, and there are plenty of heroes with flamboyant musical scenes too that just seemed vain/self-indulgent, like Aladdin transforming into "Prince Ali." I guess my point is, I definitely can see it if I look for it now, but it was subtle enough that watching it as a kid didn't give me homophobic ideas, so I don't think it's necessarily a blanket thing for all of these villains listed, and I also think there are varying degrees of it depending on the character.
As a queer person, I have two problems with this, that sometimes put me into the "bad representation" camp with certain people. 1. "Coding" requires having a shared language of stereotypes, and I think it's better to avoid socializing into those in the first place. 2. I don't believe in heroes or villains either, I grew up thinking that this was an ancient, contrived way to try telling stories. So I have always resisted the notion that I should root for/against characters.
Honestly I don’t think that shit worked on me as a kid XD because their characteristics is what made them interesting to me. I usually love villains in Disney films.
I'm screaming in my head right now (it would be out loud but I'm at work). I LOVE Check, Please! Webcomics are mentioned so rarely in these types of discussions
Just here to tell a fun experience that I had. When I was 11, (and very much interested in the LGBTQ+ community), my school went for their yearly pantomime school trip. It was Aladdin that year, and I kid you not, they literally made the genie so SO gay. It was fantastic. And it wasn't in a negative way, but more fun and harmless. Honestly nobody understood but me. It was just great to see progression, especially in front of children (nothing wrong with that, it's just that for some reason certain people believe children can't understand the concept). It's not all that bad I suppose.
Curious tidbit regarding 'The Lion King'. I once watched an experiment which filmed the response of lionesses to life-sized lion plushies with either a blonde or black mane. All of them expressed a lot more interest in the black-maned plushie. Apparently, black-maned lions are leonine hunks. The Disney animators must not have known this when they designed the characters of Scar and Mufasa. ;-D
I had NO idea that Ursula was meant to be queer. I just thought she looks that way because she's a squid and that mass is what a humanoid one would look like. Being the Sea Witch means being confident in her power and doing what is right for her. I only recently found out that she was based on a famous Drag Queen but then I didnt even know anything about that world either, simply because outside of series like Friends(Chandler's Dad), the odd episode of The Real HouseWives Of Beverly Hills(A Drag Queen performance in a nightclub), and in the movie: Don't Tell Mom The Babysitter is Dead, when a bunch of Drag Queens steal the lead character's fancy car, I had never seen an actual DragQueen.
Its heteropatriarchy thats dominated media since ever. Even in digimon frontiers, Arabic Version picted lucemon as an evil butch translady. No wonder why queerphobia is so powerful.
As far as LGBT+ characters that are awesome, there's the entire show of Steven Universe, all the gems save for Steven being agender, one of them being bi, and the fusion Stevonnie being nb with they pronouns
To make clear Ratcliffe isn't queer. The reason he wears bows is because in the 1500's they didn't have things to hold up hair and bows were the only thing to use. Ratcliffe loves gold because gold was the diamond of the time. Everyone wanted it and the last reason that he doesn't do work is because the upper class hated getting their hand or clothes dirty. Just needed to say because Pocahontas is my favorite Disney movie
the thing with the character of Jafar and the eye makeup- it is more of a racially-focused attributes as in middle eastern culture, men wearing eye makeup or kohl is tradition. Also the portrayal of him as effeminate also draws on racial coding, as arab men were/are often seen or portrayed as effeminate or less "macho" in order to other them. Otherwise very solid points made!
I can tell you why the Disney villain's are gay, but it's kind of a long story... With the 1989 movie The Little Mermaid, Walt Disney Animators were trying to reinvent the very popular Fairy Tale/Princess movies Disney was known for from the 1950's. The company had only done 3 of these kind of movies at that point, Snow White in 1937, Cinderella in 1950, and Sleeping Beauty in 1959, and all had the same basic message of "girls should be pretty and nice and marry rich princes". The first generation of animators, who had worked with Walt Disney since the 1930's, and retired from the company in the 1970's, only did 3 of these movies because they realized how redundant and reductive these old fairy tales were, both Snow White and Sleeping Beauty "fall into a death like sleep only to be awakened by their true love's kiss" and all the original Disney animator's hated drawing the Prince characters because they thought they were "boring". As a result that original group of animators never made another "Princess Movie" after 1959 So back to 1989, the Walt Disney Company and their 2nd generation of animators were "reinventing the Princess movies" by adapting the old Medieval fairy tales to life in America in the 1980's and 90's... The story of "Disney's" Little Mermaid was that, Ariel, who is a mermaid, falls in love with a human, but Ariel's Mermaid father can't accept this, and not only is Ariel in love with a human, but she really wants to be "a human" too... So? is Disney's Little Mermaid a story about mermaid girl coming out to her father about wanting to be human? ...kinda seems that way. Is Ariel the mermaid in an "interracial relationship" with Eric the human? ...also yes? Is it a story about a young girl becoming an independent woman? yes again... basically they reinvented these old fairy tales by turning them into allegories about intolerance and leaving them open to interpretation, because they could tell children in the 1990's would be facing a lot of intolerance. Like The Beast in Beauty and the Beast is hated because he is "different" but wants everyone to see him as "human" too ...are you sure it's just the villains that are "queer coded" in these movies? Anyway, so why are the villains gay? Because homosexual lyricists Howard Ashman and homosexual lead animator Andreas Deja made them gay on purpose ...I guess that wasn't such a long story after all... But why would they do such a thing? Well? Howard Ashman got hired to write songs for Disney after the film version of his musical Little Shop of Horrors was huge success, which is a movie about a sexually ambiguous, man eating plant from outer-space named Audrey 2, and even though the plant is the villain? everybody loved that plant, it's kinda the best thing in the movie... I think Audrey 2 may be part of the reason Ursula in the Little Mermaid was based on Divine, also Divine's collaborator John Waters was obsessed as Captain Hook as a child, he would dress up as Captain Hook, and wanted to be Captain Hook. It didn't matter that Captain Hook was the villain, there was something about Captain Hook that John Waters really liked as a child... so they decided to go for more villains like Captain Hook and Aubrey 2... When the Little Mermaid was released in 1989, it was also a huge success, and the character of Ursula ended up being as popular as Captain Hook and Audrey 2, so openly gay lead animator Andreas Deja, who animated Ariel's conflicted father in The Little Mermaid, decided to take on the villain characters in the next 3 films, Gaston, Jafar, and Scar... then moved on to the hero Hercules, another 90's Disney character trying to figure out his place in the world. But when Disney creates these characters they are literally and figuratively "banking" on them having lives beyond these 90 minute movies. They appear in theme park rides and parades, as t-shirts and toys, the movies are just an introduction to "the characters" and more importantly "the personalities of the characters". The events of the film story? kinda don't matter that much. For example, if you meet Rapunzel at Disney World she still has her long blonde hair even though she lost it at the end of the movie, because they know that people relate to these characters outside the context of the initial films. They've even created sequels and Saturday Morning series based on Ariel and Aladdin that don't necessarily relate to the original films, because people relate more to the personalities of Ariel and Aladdin than the stories. Disney has always called what they do "personality animation" and for that reason they know that if a child likes the character and personality of Jafar, and has the Jafar toy, that child is going to invent their own stories about Jafar... In 1989 if they literally made the Ariel a lesbian, straight people in America would have wigged out, that would not have been excepted by mainstream America at that time... so they made all the characters kind of ambiguous, or "open to interpretation" and that applies to the villains too. Disney's villains are some of their most popular characters, people pay extra to go to the Villains After Dark parties at Walt Disney World in the summers, they stand in line to take pictures with them at Halloween... everybody really seems to like Captain Hook and Jafar and no one seems to mind that they are kinda gay ...and I think ultimately that's what they were going for 30 years ago
I already have a answer. It's not saying that queers are villians or evil. My answer is that the creators just wanted to mess around. Sure that they can use the heroes for that, but villians gets less critizism for being too funny to make people question the actions of the heroes.
StariNight69 Do you mean in relation to "villains" such as Jasper, Bismuth etc coded as butch women or more in general Steven Universe is awesome recommendation?
You know it could be because Ursula was inspired by a drag queen, Gaston, Jafar, and Scar were all animated by the same gay animator, and Ratcliffe was voiced by a gay actor. Just saying.
Having browsed the comments, I'm going to go ahead and guess that about 80% of the people either didn't watch the video or paid absolutely no attention and walked away completely missing the point.
What about Timon and Pumba raising Simba? There is an example of two men raising a child together and it's shown in a very positive way. They both show no interest in females.
and in despicable me thereis a single man raising kids and he has 'queer' traits
Scrat in Ice Age seems to be asexual, except for one movie.
Shamal Jifan Are you talking about the road to el dorado? because actually that movie came out quite a few years ago.
They don't come over as a couple though they just seem like good friends
Also cos they show no interest in females doesn't mean they're gay, they could be ace
they dont have queer traits tho
HIM from powerpuff girls
he's baphomet
YES
He's not a Disney character lols 😆 😂
TRANS
@@sheenarussell5320 No
As an animator I can say that the Villains are always more fun to animate for this characteristics
@@marlo714 he didn't say it was a movie, animators work on lots of different stuff!
As a gay man, depicting the villains with queer traits is both terrible and very accurate representation lol, hell hath no fury than a gay scorned.
@@explorer47422 Idk I see the problems but as a gay person myself, I love it and I don't care lol
And then people keep bashing us for being attracted or identifying with villains..
i always liked the villains more. explains a lot
@@Scribbled2Death yes
Growing up with these movies I never read any of these characters as gay. They were just either jerks or richy-rich jerks. Now, I don't know if my parents ever picked up on the references or not, but I certainly didn't, and I never thought being gay was a bad thing either, just different.
Sydd Linden not different, abnormal.
@@stz9740 how is it abnormal?
Sebastien Lee ABNORMAL
adj. Not typical, usual, or regular; not normal; deviant.
Not conformed or conforming to rule; deviating from a type or standard; contrary to system or law; irregular; unnatural.
@@stz9740 how is being gay "not conforming to the rule"
Sebastien Lee heterosexuality is necessary for us to reproduce. Homosexuality is not. That’s how homosexuality does not conform to rule.
I've really gotten into Steven Universe in the past month or so. It has multiple LGBT+ characters, diverse body types, people of color, and just different types of people shown in a positive light. It also shows good relationships and examples of not so good ones. I love that it has all this representation and is specifically for kids. I'd love to know what others think of it?
Steven universe knows how to make people lgbt. They don't force it like other shows or movies.
Steven universe might be the reason I’m bi
but I have a crush on rainbow quartz 2.0 shhhh
Well Steven universe may seem to have lgbt elements, it may not be lgbt besides, ruby and sapphire are both non-binary (obviously because they are gems) yet possessing female pronouns, they Could represent it but not be it
Ok Ive never watched it but really want to. Where can I watch it
@@chemicalyjake455 it's on Hulu I believe. There's probably some other places you could find it as well just online.
Not only the villains. If you watch Hermès throughout Hercules, he is also clearly implied to be a homosexual inspired by Elton John especially. He talks about flower arrangements, calls Zeus “babe”, and even wears a shorter toga than the other gods, while having a higher pitched voice and no significant other. Perhaps he can’t find one of the many homosexual gods we find throughout Greek mythology because they drew him to be physically weak & unfit. *eyeroll* I wonder if this is where “light in the loafers” originates. Lol
Hermes was also the god of twilight and portals so it makes sense at least in that way that he could be considered queer
Zeus, Apollo, Hermes, and Dionysus had both male and female lovers in the Greek Myths. Same-sex relationships were seen as normal in ancient Greece.
@@strawberryfieldswhenever hell, apollo's only lover that actually loved him was a guy, hyacintus
To be fair, Hermes was bi in the mythology, lol. As a matter of fact, so was Heracles. It's funny because Hades was like, one of the only gods who I could say with absolute certainty was straight, and they queercoded him.
@@strawberryfieldswhenever I wouldn't advertise that. Thee way Greeks intended homosexuality would be quite horrendous for modern morality.
Great video, Rowan! This is something that, as a straight person, I haven't thought about so I was happy to learn! I think the main issue is exactly what you said - it isn't necessarily that villains might be gay, it's that there are no positive gay heroes to balance it out!
"it isn't necessarily that villains might be gay, it's that there are no positive gay heroes to balance it out!"
Wrong. Hollywood is rather relentless in promoting stereotypes and gender role rigidity. Look at the Bee Movie. It's a poster child for that agenda. Worker bees in reality are all female. What are they in the film? "Pollen Jocks." Look at how the males behave toward each other. Look at how they behave toward females. Look at everything in that film. It's just one of so many. The rigidity has only increased with time. It's all indoctrination into gender stereotypes.
Men can't even be relatively pretty anymore or they'll invoke the dreaded gayness. They have to be presented, instead, as comically uber-masculine, like the human man and the pollen jocks in the Bee Movie, or simply unattractive like the other males in that film. Their behavior also can't be suave and beautiful in any way. Again... it must conform to very specific rules. Comic. Macho. Aggressive. Idiotic. Loud. Calculating. Awestruck at the sight of women.
Compare original Tron with the sequel. The sexuality, specifically the rigidity of the gender roles, is more force-fed than it was even in the original. In the original you got a good amount of male eye candy, especially ass. In the sequel they made sure to give the young guy non-revealing dress and did lots of other things to make things less potentially gay. This kind of adjustment is all over Hollywood. People there are very sensitive to anything that could be seen as not upholding the stringent contemporary heterosexual norm, unless the film is specifically marketed toward a gay or older female audience - or is made with older producers and actors (e.g. the terrible campy Stepford Wives remake which still, quite notably, greatly elided the sexuality of the gay couple). A lot of these people grew up surrounded by "that's so gay" commentary in school. They grew up with that intense disclaiming of all things gay environment, a different environment from the passive "gays don't exist at all" mentality of before that.
With the rise of gay identify visibility has come the backlash. However, using gay stereotypes for villains is much older. Villains are whatever the society can think of in terms of character traits and behaviors that are considered unwanted.
Ariel Bissett
We can't just assume that being flamboyant equals gay. The very reason you never noticed that queer coding thing is because it isn't true
And The Wild Bean Appears society equated femininity with gayness and says its bad therefore they make their villians that way
Oh my god Ariel!
what about jojo
This isn't a Disney villan but would you say this is the case with King George from Hamilton? His song is the only one in the show that is really a typical musical theatre style, simple chord progressions, bouncy feel and the lyrics "da da da da da" ect. That stereotypical musical theatre sound is often seen as or described as camp or gay, the phrase gay guy at the theatre is a very common trope.
Hmm I didn't notice that.I say it as representing him sticking to the status quo and him being the antithesis of the mains that sing styles created by African-Americans.
Also , Musical Mash has a great series of videos explaining where that stereotype came from if anybody wants to find out more about that
I definitely see queer coding in KG tbh, but think it was more an unconscious reference primarily aimed at the "foppish upper class brat" trope instead?
Even if so, considering Hamilton's bisexuality (don't tell me he was anything other than that), I'd forgive Lin for it.
EVERYONE is gay in Hamilton.
Watch Yuri on ice, for the first few episodes I thought the show was queerbaiting its two main male protagonists but in the most recent episode it turned out to be actual representation (you can't watch this show without seeing they're in love, basically). And this is not yaoi anime. So even if you don't usually watch anime, I think you should watch this show. It's just so pure and no one ever questions why the characters fall in love with each other and the stereotype of ice skaters being feminine is treated so well because the characters are all very interesting and complex. The relationship is healthy. There is diversity in all of the characters (a bunch of Japanese characters, a Thai, a Chinese guy, a few Russian ones, a Swiss one and the skater from the USA is actually Latino). And the show overall is just so positive and pure, it's exactly what I needed after everything that went down in 2016. The main message of the show (and the overall theme I guess) is to believe in yourself. And I find that so empowering, it really inspires me. Please watch Yuri!!! on ICE! :)
YOI has become the best thing of 2016 ♥
well, Yoi made 2016 kinda better c:
After watching this show I felt kinda sad, it was all so positive and such, but I know as for now such positivity is just not possible, at least not yet : /
Lisa Pauli the relationship isnt well developed, and i would like more development in the second season
BORN TO SHIP VIKTUURI
Yoi was my first anime lmao now I'm a weeb
Dorian Pavus from Dragon Age: Inquisition loves fashionable clothes and is flamboyant but also he is a deep and interesting gay character.
Yeah, Dragon Age has kind of knocked it out of the park for LGB characters in video games (admittedly, it's a small park). Through the whole series, there's been twice as many LGB romance options as straight ones and it's almost completely a non issue.
I say LGB. They tried with Krem. I mean, they tried. He's fine. They asked some trans people and all. Got some people angry-crying on the forums because they weren't allowed to be mean to a trans person in their game, during a conversation lasting all of 30 seconds. (Now if they can get Maevaris Tilani as a companion in the next game, we'll be cooking.)
Ooh yeah I love Dorian. He’s an actual person and not an idea or concept.
I think movies such as Hunchback, Mulan, and Tarzan would be interesting subjects to discuss as a sort of "exception" to this particular phenomenon, as in all three cases the villains are quite masculine in their own regard
And beauty and the beast
Sebastien Lee idk while he talks about doing masculine type activities, he’s clearly well groomed and very flamboyant.
In Mulan, it think it's because the villain more-or-less took a back seat for the film. The movie was mostly centered on her, and he wasn't meant to be developed as a character. It works really well with that type of story.
Frolo?! Masculine?!
Sorry but Frollo and Clayton are the gayest of them all 😂
With Scar it kinda backfire and now people think he is hot
This was definitely interesting, but for me, these stereotypes aren't exactly associated with villains in general. They seem to be specifically used for villains which come from a royal background or at least some position of power. I imagine this is because royalty is typically associated with using proper etiquette and being physically weak, which are usually considered to be feminine traits. It also seems to me that giving characters more flamboyant personalities is a cheap way to make audiences dislike them more quickly by portraying them as obnoxious before they even get the chance to do anything evil. I know this is a pretty old video by now but if anyone's reading this I'd like to hear your thoughts.
this is pretty much what I thought...the sheltered, femininity of the characters represented wealth and aversion to work/hard labor, seen as masculine traits...these guys all seem more like incels, with a hatred or superiority complex to women, in contrast to the main character(eg. Scar hitting Sarabi I think...Jafar belittling Jasmine)...Especially when Gaston has these same vain, flamboyant qualities but is a womanizer narcissist. I definitely get what the video is saying and I think it's more that many of the traits seen in the wealthy are traits seen in gay stereotypes.
I agree with you, I feel that’s exactly what it is. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion
I posted something just now on a similar vein: Most of her examples aren't queercoding at all - they are reasonably historically acceptable portrayals of the rich, the pompous, the fops of two centuries ago, etc. It's only "queercoding" nowadays because the younger generation has only experienced her examples in the gay community and haven't looked back in history enough.
@@ABodyInProgress Yeah, a lot of these villain portrayals are more about demonizing the rich than demonizing the gay community. When you ask most people to imagine an "evil rich person" now, they'd probably picture someone closer to Mr. Burns from The Simpsons than someone who adheres to the foppish archetype.
Yeah, but there’s still clear steortyoes about gay people and that can’t be just a coincidence.
Just came from a Lindsay Ellis video (Loose Canon: Aphrodite) where she talked about Hades briefly being in love with Aphrodite in the TV show, thus making him the only Disney villain with any sort of romantic attachment. I realized I had totally failed to notice the villains' lack of love interests! (At least consensual-Frollo, Jafar, and Scar all make moves on unwilling women.) It's another layer of making the hero the opposite of the villain-the hypermasculine male hero / hyperfeminine female hero gets the romantic rewards, the queercoded villain doesn't. By itself it would look like more of a 'people who do bad stuff get bad karma' thing, but when you layer in the queercoding it doesn't send a good message. Either they're super aggressive romantically (and the love isn't requited), or their romantic side isn't even hinted at.
There's a great cartoon called Wander over Yonder that aired on Disney XD (unfortunately cancelled before production could start on its third season). Wander (the main character) was quite flamboyant and OTT, flirted with the main male villain on several occasions (who happened to be quite masculine yet was shown to be immature and very insecure at the same time, which was done really well), and he cross-dressed a lot (very rarely was this actually played for laughs, and was more just an aspect of his character (I think?), which I really liked). One of the most popular headcanons in the fandom is that he's actually genderfluid, which is an idea I love. He was the ultimate hero of the show and promoted compassion and selflessness, so I think he's a good example of a character that's the opposite of the disney villains described in this video. Wander over Yonder is actually brilliant (it seems a little childish at first but its so easy to get into) and I would totally recommend to anyone who likes cartoons!! Bonus: female arch-villain with an awesome musical number!!!!
wait luke's queer??why didn't i know this??
I know this comment is a year ago, but I love it whenever Wander Over Yonder is being talked about. Like seriously, it's rarely mentioned wherever. It deserves more recognition :^(
snitterdog Never heard about it; your description is brilliant; thanks for the recommendation; you're doing the 'Lord's' work, my child. Female villain! Take all my money.
Careful though: his voice is _very_ annoying.
I love Wander. He reminds me of pre-movie SpongeBob.
I never really saw them as gay or flamboyant. Just vain and egotistical (but I've always loved villains more than heroes)
Cuz you say so?
People usually use Disney villains as examples but Him from the Powerpuff Girls first alerted me to this and then i noticed it in Disney.
.... So that's why I grew up liking disney villains so much.
Yep, cause they brainwashed you.
@@DukesJournal what
@@DukesJournal sorry what did you write I can only see homophobia
@@immagetitdone0 yeah it reeks
I think Stoned Yoda is right😐
Incredibly well structured as always.
Go fuck yourself, social justice warriors.
I think the Doctor (Doctor Who) is the only character I can think of who is truly non-binary. Even before the female incarnation the Doctor always rejected masculinity and the usual macho tropes of being a hero.
Just found your channel. Great videos
A reason for queercoded villains might be that straight up aggressive relentless evil villains could be way too intimidating, scary and over the top for younger children. They probably act this way to increase their likability instead of the other way around. I imagine it's an easy shorthand to communicate that they still have weakness.
I think it's more detrimental to society that you see this as a sign of weakness.
Let's take Joker. Pretty elaborate, colorful, not very physically active in MOST fights, I'd even say flamboyant at times...shooting Mrs. Gordon in the face surrounded by babies is by your reasoning, not scary and over-the-top.
Dackson Flux hardly The jokers personaility just the voice actor Mark hamill brings a flamboyant tone to the voice The joker is sadistic cruel and evil
I think for now as far as cartoons goes Steven Universe explores relationships best everyone else is forced to hint at it like in Legend of Korra or Adventure Time (love your channel by the way, very educational)
I see it from a different angle. In the US film industry they often cast a British male actor in the role of the villain. And it has become some what of a type cast (because it makes them money?) The character of the British male they employ is often of 'posh', middle aged guy, and in real life they tend to have much more effeminate gestures, vocal quality and traits, compared to the average US male or actually male from other nations. An example is Alan Rickman (& his character in the film Die hard.) And I think perhaps Disney has imported this idea into their animations.
when i was a child playing super metroid. Samas was the first hero i encountered that i thought was a man and when i realized she was a woman and every bit as badass as any male sci fi hero i had encountered it changed my perspective on female protagonists in games and movies.
I remember seeing something a while back that said like "why did they expect us not to be gay when they made the villians so hot" which I mean, kinda makes sense now if those villians were queercoded lol
I am a gay male and I believe that timone and puma are depicted as a gay couple,this theory has been thrown around a lot but I believe it's true and they are portrayed as the heroes of the story.Bassically in a sense my theory is that simba ran away to find salvation and sanctuary,and more importantly people who love and care about him and he found that love and care from timone and pumba they helped simba find Out who he reallly is whilst he grew up they nurtured and raised him as there own son more or less if you really think about it
joshua garbett I really couldn't have put it better myself. Pumbaa and Timon, in my opinion, are representing this because they are two parents of the same gender. In the upcoming live-action reboot of the Lion King, it is said that Simba will come out as gay. Hopefully this is true, because it will most likely confirm the "Pumbaa and Timon are gay" theory.
@@raysan_rosado366 Wouldn't that just make Simba the trope "gay people will turn kids gay"?
This could explain why I was obsessed with Disney villains as a child.....Like, Scar was my main imaginary friend and I had a collection of Disney villain action figures. Everything makes sense XD
So glad you mentioned Bittle! That comic is doing wonders ^_^
Great points. Thanks for taking a stand and helping bring these issues to light for the public.
ouch... and I was so proud to think Ursula was based on Divine... not such a good intention on their part then :(
I absolutely love the She ra and the princesses of power 2018 remake because almost all of it’s main cast canonically queer (including the antagonist and protagonist) and the rest of the characters don’t even bat an eye.
Never realised how much of my childhood has been influenced by gay men.
To be fair, villains are always more interesting and fun than heroes
Scar wasn’t even gay lmao he had Zira
As weird as it is for me to think about, Zira isn't Scar's mate. She's the same age as Simba (despite appearing kind of older). She just must've had some admiration for Scar while he was king. Scar was not the father of any of her children, especially Kovu, who was adopted. He just selected Kovu to be next in line for the throne.
Twisted Wolf Nah she and scar definitely had a thing by the way she spoke about him and she’s way older than simba
@@wolfcry087 lions don't care about age
@@SuzyUzi In real life, yes. In the lion king world, they do care- unless you're referring to that one deleted scene......
It's Canon that kovu is not scars child and scar was never with zira that way . All tho Zira is much like Harley Quinn and loves scar even if he was never with her of had no interest in her she is convinced that scar loves her . The never hooked up.
He's not a cartoon character, but what about Nico di Angelo from PJO? He's a pretty well-rounded character, doesnt play into queer steryotypes, and is a hero.
mama odie from Princess and the Frog helped the protagonists, was clearly a good person, and was also queer coded. she gave her decidedly female pet snake a few slobbery kisses on the mouth (weird lmao). during her song there were a ton of flamingos and rainbow lights/bottles. the lyrics of said song had "we dont care, no we dont care// dont matter what you come from// dont even matter what you are//". she looks pretty happy, even if shes a recluse.
although i think dr. facilier, the villain from the same movie probably had some degree of coding too. :( but still.
I know they make these villains have these traits for us to consider them someone to stay away from, but...they are so attractive and sexy
i also hear a lot about gaston from 'beauty and the beast'...kinda surprised you didn't mention him, but you might keep an eye on him if you haven't seen it in a while.. and then there's the butch brother in 'paranorman' (can't remember his name).. he's your typical dumb jock, so i'm not sure how "positive" it is, but i guess it flips (some) ppl's expectations, so ya, that happened..
fr3@kb!+¢h
Gaston's bestfriend is gay, but he's not gay himself
Points to the fact Basil and Dr Dawson LIVE TOGETHER
You are so well-educated. I am currently living in a quite isolated area. You make me miss having friends like you.
I'm a simple man, you mention 'Check Please', and I subscribe.
I'm writing my dissertation on this, when I pitched the idea I asked "Which Disney villains are gay?" and one guy replied "All of them!" and he's right. Personally, after researching this for a year, I don't think it was an accident. Disney was homophobic, he called Art Babbit a f*ggot for playing the piano (a trait Hook has by the way...) but even in my essay I can't outright accuse him, though I'm doing my best hehe
No, he's not right. You can't just assume all of them are gay because of a couple of examples. AND WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY DOING YOUR BEST?
@@dreamlandbuds7710 I'm not assuming, I'm basing it on my research of Disney, the era of Hollywood and the general ideas of gay people at the times the films were made. They're all gay, all of them, and I could write a book with a chapter on each! I'm doing my best to accuse Disney because ultimately they're the ones responsible for this! Anyway I got a first for that dissertation ;)
This is so true. But it kind of backfired on them cuz people think of these characters as the most iconic and memorable presentation. But yeah it for sure is trying to push the idea that any character that isn’t insanely straight is evil or immoral.
I'm attempting to make a comic based around a character I have been developing for a year or so now.. appearance and behavior is based off myself, (backstory, traits, ect are different) with myself being gay. Though I don't ever really show queer stereotypes. It's just not me, so I'm kind of hoping I can do a good job with this, without also making it feel too forced upon.
Realm Of Unknown
Don't forget to send us the link when your story is ready :)
you might not be real enough without the sterotypes
I hope it's going well so far. I think if your cast is diverse and you're doing your research, then it'll be great! Best of luck!
So this is why Scar was my favorite character.
Has someone mentioned the Mean Girls musical? Damian is a secondary character, but a very important one, and he's at least heavily queercoded (I can't remember if he's ever openly addresses as homosexual). He's also pretty damn awesome. Less noticeably, I think Janis Sarkisian (played by the wonderful Barrett Wilbert Weed, sorry, fangirl moment) has some thin queercoding going on, but I might be wrong. Janis has some glorious moments in the show, but Damian too is definitely a positive figure, a complex and fully realized character, and a pleasure to watch.
Anyways, love what you're doing. I didn't know about queercoding until now. Subscribed.
Also, because of the lack of queercoded good guys all around, I decided one of the main protagonists in a fanfic I'm writing will be queercoded, hopefully in a tasteful way. Spoiler: he wins in the end ^___^
BIH I THOUGHT YOU WERE DEMI LOVATO IN CAMP ROCK 1
Another feminine trait in similar Disney villains is intelligence.
Meanwhile we have Hercules taking the advice, "Use your head!" quite literally. Who, by the way, is our masculine counterpart to supposedly feminine, Hades.
Omg I never realized this about disney villains
As a Furry, it's always funny to me how many Disney charas are a lightbulb moment for most
I always enjoy your videos Rowan! Keep making them until all the homophobia and stereotypes in the world are overwhelmed and disappear forever
Very interesting. Hmm.. this is kind of fucked.
Disney villains tend to be melodramatic, which should not mean melodramatic is equal to queer coding. This would be easier to understand though, if they did include characters as you mentioned, those that were not heterosexual or did not follow gender stereotypes. I think, King Candy was intended to be gay, but the only real references to it are making jokes at his expense. I always wished that they would make a before "The Little Mermaid" film that would discuss why Ursula was exiled and not allowed to be queen. Maybe it would give more of a chance to be show a character who is a lesbian, transgender, or at least does not follow gender stereotypes and shows the King as the good but judgmental and sometimes violent person he is.
Theres a whole book abou Ursula's backstory and her tense relationship with her brother (Triton). I dont wanna spoil anything, but u will prolly not like Ariel's father after that.
@ULGROTHA Triton forced ursula to use a "normal" appearence when she lived in the Palace (the same Vanessa identity). He was repulsed by her looks and considering the amount of people requesting Ursula's Magic to look prettier, or skinnier, or hotter to find romance, you can say Triton is an elitist King. Thats just the surface tho. Hes cruel to her when they were kids too. Its a good read If you like Disney characters, and theres one book for the Evil Queen in snow white too.
@@poisonarrow658 Pardon if someone already said this, because YT is showing me all the replies out of order. It's confusing. What is the name of the book? I would love to read it.
@@DogFlamingoXIII Search for : "Poor unfortunate soul: A tale of the Sea witch". Its one of many books based on the Disney villains and they are all connected. I totally recomend them all if you want a full experience.
I really did not get this with any 'feminine' villains. I always associated their style with simply being British and it makes sense considering the James Bond villains have inspired many othe villains.
RUth Spiteri But why are only the villains effeminate? If it was about being British then all of them should act 'gay' or 'prissy', not just the bad guys.
Never noticed the queercoding as a kid but no wonder the villains were always my favourite 👀
You might see if you can reach out geeky feminist indie band The Doubleclicks. They've written songs about misogyny in geek culture, and they're currently doing a series called You Should Write a Song about That, the first episode of which is about Anandibai Joshi, the first Indian woman to get a degree in western medicine.
Yeah i noticed this in Aladdin when Jafar was trying to make Jasmine fall in love with him because he actually wanted Aladdin all for himself.
Rowan Ellis,
Its Cartoon Network, not Disney, but you should checkout Steven Universe if you haven't already. Its a kids cartoon with a lot of positive portrayals of characters that don't exactly fit our gender stereotypes. There also is a gay romance in the series later on, and near the end of the series it depicts what is probably the first gay marriage in a children's cartoon.
I don't think all disney villians are Gay, that's just unrealistic, alot of their villians are simply cocky
She literally did not say that they were gay. They were queercoded and it's different.
CAN WE PLEASE STOP ASSUMING EVERY CARTOON OR ANY ANY CHARACTER ANYWHERE IS GAY?????
I think the intention is just to make them look like the opposite of heroic. They are also ugly. Their mannerisms come from queer people because those are perceived and thought to be perceived as ugly and unattractive. It's like Brad Pitt with a Goofy accent. It's silly and not going to happen in a drama. Peter Lorre or Vincent Price also had that delicate quality in their villains, but they were straight. And to be honest, I don't think it can be fixed.
1:24 Actually, Andreas Deja said he based Jafar on Vincent Price
One of the really sad things I've noticed watching your videos is that I'm aware of or have seen basically every single example you mention (not in just this video). It could be that we watch all of the same shows (which seems unlikely), or that the number of queer characters in media is so small we all have to refer to the same ones. As an example, I'd love for you to do a video on queer characters in YA novels like "The song of Achilles" and Nico de Angelo from the Rick Riordan series - fully expecting that you've heard and possibly read both of those.
preach 🙌🙌🙌🙌
I would like to point out that coding--be it racial, queer, etc--is really a neutral concept, and is not restricted to villains and to negative stereotypes. It should also be noted that half of coding is in the mind of the audience and how any given person perceives and interprets any given traits, and what kind of associations they make with those traits, and the context in which those traits exist.
Cry about it
Everyones in old disney men and women with father and mother
Check Please! is a really good book, and I'm happy to hear it mentioned more often. The story is really sweet.
Is Donita in Wild Kratts a queerbaited character? She is very over-the-top, and frankly very fun to play or impersonate, which I have done with my nieces in one of the make-believe games we play (when I am playing the evil and impossible to satisfy restaurant customer).
But now I am worried that I am participating in perpetuating queerbaiting.
EDIT: I also play this character with a little Cruella Devil.
yes. i am sure she is
one reason for why they are Queercoded....
They are the most memorable and iconic characters one example: Hades THEE most iconic character ever
I had to think about this one for a while. I think looking at it as an adult, there's definitely a presence of stereotypically queer traits in some of these villains, and I know that Disney has had issues with racial and sexist stereotyping also so it wouldn't surprise me if someone at the studio was like "hey, let's sneak this in here, the kids won't get it but the parents and grandparents will" or something. But as a kid I didn't see any reason to think these villains were queer - I didn't really think about characters' love lives at all unless the love was an active part of the story and I was forced to (i.e. Simba and Nala, Aladdin and Jasmine, etc). So I think I grew up thinking that evil was being portrayed by Disney as associated with self-centered behavior, narcissism, greed, material wealth, etc. rather than queerness. I'd just assumed as a kid that the flamboyant dancing and singing was a vanity thing, and there are plenty of heroes with flamboyant musical scenes too that just seemed vain/self-indulgent, like Aladdin transforming into "Prince Ali." I guess my point is, I definitely can see it if I look for it now, but it was subtle enough that watching it as a kid didn't give me homophobic ideas, so I don't think it's necessarily a blanket thing for all of these villains listed, and I also think there are varying degrees of it depending on the character.
*i think the real question is why not?*
As a queer person, I have two problems with this, that sometimes put me into the "bad representation" camp with certain people.
1. "Coding" requires having a shared language of stereotypes, and I think it's better to avoid socializing into those in the first place.
2. I don't believe in heroes or villains either, I grew up thinking that this was an ancient, contrived way to try telling stories. So I have always resisted the notion that I should root for/against characters.
1:53 The color was clearly Salmon.
Honestly I don’t think that shit worked on me as a kid XD because their characteristics is what made them interesting to me. I usually love villains in Disney films.
Hades never made me think “he gay”
The costume maker from The Incredibles counts as a good one maybe? Definitely see Tokyo Godfathers for a good portrayal. (And very enjoyable movie!)
lovely and informative as always. 💎💫
I'm screaming in my head right now (it would be out loud but I'm at work). I LOVE Check, Please! Webcomics are mentioned so rarely in these types of discussions
Just here to tell a fun experience that I had. When I was 11, (and very much interested in the LGBTQ+ community), my school went for their yearly pantomime school trip. It was Aladdin that year, and I kid you not, they literally made the genie so SO gay. It was fantastic. And it wasn't in a negative way, but more fun and harmless. Honestly nobody understood but me. It was just great to see progression, especially in front of children (nothing wrong with that, it's just that for some reason certain people believe children can't understand the concept). It's not all that bad I suppose.
Curious tidbit regarding 'The Lion King'. I once watched an experiment which filmed the response of lionesses to life-sized lion plushies with either a blonde or black mane. All of them expressed a lot more interest in the black-maned plushie. Apparently, black-maned lions are leonine hunks.
The Disney animators must not have known this when they designed the characters of Scar and Mufasa. ;-D
just discovered your videos. they're amazing! it's informative without being preachy
I had NO idea that Ursula was meant to be queer. I just thought she looks that way because she's a squid and that mass is what a humanoid one would look like. Being the Sea Witch means being confident in her power and doing what is right for her. I only recently found out that she was based on a famous Drag Queen but then I didnt even know anything about that world either, simply because outside of series like Friends(Chandler's Dad), the odd episode of The Real HouseWives Of Beverly Hills(A Drag Queen performance in a nightclub), and in the movie: Don't Tell Mom The Babysitter is Dead, when a bunch of Drag Queens steal the lead character's fancy car, I had never seen an actual DragQueen.
Its heteropatriarchy thats dominated media since ever. Even in digimon frontiers, Arabic Version picted lucemon as an evil butch translady. No wonder why queerphobia is so powerful.
Elsa from Frozen is possibiliy a lesbian or bi and was originally slated to be a villian. But was changed by how much people liked the character.
I've never noticed this and I'm actually pretty shocked! Thanks for opening my eyes!
So that’s why gay people love the villains
Okay but if Disney confirms that Maleficent is a lesbian I will be so happy
As far as LGBT+ characters that are awesome, there's the entire show of Steven Universe, all the gems save for Steven being agender, one of them being bi, and the fusion Stevonnie being nb with they pronouns
i feel like the extraness and dramaticness of the disney villainds has to do with how greedy they are ;-;
To make clear Ratcliffe isn't queer. The reason he wears bows is because in the 1500's they didn't have things to hold up hair and bows were the only thing to use. Ratcliffe loves gold because gold was the diamond of the time. Everyone wanted it and the last reason that he doesn't do work is because the upper class hated getting their hand or clothes dirty.
Just needed to say because Pocahontas is my favorite Disney movie
the thing with the character of Jafar and the eye makeup- it is more of a racially-focused attributes as in middle eastern culture, men wearing eye makeup or kohl is tradition. Also the portrayal of him as effeminate also draws on racial coding, as arab men were/are often seen or portrayed as effeminate or less "macho" in order to other them. Otherwise very solid points made!
I can tell you why the Disney villain's are gay, but it's kind of a long story... With the 1989 movie The Little Mermaid, Walt Disney Animators were trying to reinvent the very popular Fairy Tale/Princess movies Disney was known for from the 1950's. The company had only done 3 of these kind of movies at that point, Snow White in 1937, Cinderella in 1950, and Sleeping Beauty in 1959, and all had the same basic message of "girls should be pretty and nice and marry rich princes". The first generation of animators, who had worked with Walt Disney since the 1930's, and retired from the company in the 1970's, only did 3 of these movies because they realized how redundant and reductive these old fairy tales were, both Snow White and Sleeping Beauty "fall into a death like sleep only to be awakened by their true love's kiss" and all the original Disney animator's hated drawing the Prince characters because they thought they were "boring". As a result that original group of animators never made another "Princess Movie" after 1959
So back to 1989, the Walt Disney Company and their 2nd generation of animators were "reinventing the Princess movies" by adapting the old Medieval fairy tales to life in America in the 1980's and 90's... The story of "Disney's" Little Mermaid was that, Ariel, who is a mermaid, falls in love with a human, but Ariel's Mermaid father can't accept this, and not only is Ariel in love with a human, but she really wants to be "a human" too... So? is Disney's Little Mermaid a story about mermaid girl coming out to her father about wanting to be human? ...kinda seems that way. Is Ariel the mermaid in an "interracial relationship" with Eric the human? ...also yes? Is it a story about a young girl becoming an independent woman? yes again... basically they reinvented these old fairy tales by turning them into allegories about intolerance and leaving them open to interpretation, because they could tell children in the 1990's would be facing a lot of intolerance. Like The Beast in Beauty and the Beast is hated because he is "different" but wants everyone to see him as "human" too ...are you sure it's just the villains that are "queer coded" in these movies?
Anyway, so why are the villains gay? Because homosexual lyricists Howard Ashman and homosexual lead animator Andreas Deja made them gay on purpose ...I guess that wasn't such a long story after all... But why would they do such a thing? Well? Howard Ashman got hired to write songs for Disney after the film version of his musical Little Shop of Horrors was huge success, which is a movie about a sexually ambiguous, man eating plant from outer-space named Audrey 2, and even though the plant is the villain? everybody loved that plant, it's kinda the best thing in the movie... I think Audrey 2 may be part of the reason Ursula in the Little Mermaid was based on Divine, also Divine's collaborator John Waters was obsessed as Captain Hook as a child, he would dress up as Captain Hook, and wanted to be Captain Hook. It didn't matter that Captain Hook was the villain, there was something about Captain Hook that John Waters really liked as a child... so they decided to go for more villains like Captain Hook and Aubrey 2... When the Little Mermaid was released in 1989, it was also a huge success, and the character of Ursula ended up being as popular as Captain Hook and Audrey 2, so openly gay lead animator Andreas Deja, who animated Ariel's conflicted father in The Little Mermaid, decided to take on the villain characters in the next 3 films, Gaston, Jafar, and Scar... then moved on to the hero Hercules, another 90's Disney character trying to figure out his place in the world.
But when Disney creates these characters they are literally and figuratively "banking" on them having lives beyond these 90 minute movies. They appear in theme park rides and parades, as t-shirts and toys, the movies are just an introduction to "the characters" and more importantly "the personalities of the characters". The events of the film story? kinda don't matter that much. For example, if you meet Rapunzel at Disney World she still has her long blonde hair even though she lost it at the end of the movie, because they know that people relate to these characters outside the context of the initial films. They've even created sequels and Saturday Morning series based on Ariel and Aladdin that don't necessarily relate to the original films, because people relate more to the personalities of Ariel and Aladdin than the stories. Disney has always called what they do "personality animation" and for that reason they know that if a child likes the character and personality of Jafar, and has the Jafar toy, that child is going to invent their own stories about Jafar...
In 1989 if they literally made the Ariel a lesbian, straight people in America would have wigged out, that would not have been excepted by mainstream America at that time... so they made all the characters kind of ambiguous, or "open to interpretation" and that applies to the villains too. Disney's villains are some of their most popular characters, people pay extra to go to the Villains After Dark parties at Walt Disney World in the summers, they stand in line to take pictures with them at Halloween... everybody really seems to like Captain Hook and Jafar and no one seems to mind that they are kinda gay ...and I think ultimately that's what they were going for 30 years ago
Lol I never thought any of those characters were hinting something like that.
Check out Shark tale, that's some real stuff for this xD
I already have a answer. It's not saying that queers are villians or evil. My answer is that the creators just wanted to mess around. Sure that they can use the heroes for that, but villians gets less critizism for being too funny to make people question the actions of the heroes.
I know it’s not Disney but I immediately thought of Him in power puff girls
Not a Disney character, but in the recent SyFy series Happy!, the villain orchestrating the kidnapping of children is an overtly flamboyant man.
Hades seems to be gay or straight ally which is why he is one of my favorite Disney villains/ King.
I recommend Steven universe
Please do a video on steven universe
StariNight69 Do you mean in relation to "villains" such as Jasper, Bismuth etc coded as butch women or more in general Steven Universe is awesome recommendation?
+ Steven Universe is amazing
You know it could be because Ursula was inspired by a drag queen, Gaston, Jafar, and Scar were all animated by the same gay animator, and Ratcliffe was voiced by a gay actor. Just saying.